autotext option for see a professional

January 11, 2006 8:17 PM

Ask Metafilter questions like this one lead me to propose a "Consult An Attorney Immediately" block of text to insert somewhere in the thread. The purpose of such a line of copy would be to protect Matt/MetaFilter/users from liability--is this possible and/or necessary?
posted by fandango_matt to bugs at 8:17 PM (52 comments total)

Obviously, I'm trying to help a friend. He was the guy who booked our first musical gig back in '83. He's a good guy and I have no idea how he became involved in big time pot farming stuff...
posted by snsranch to law & government at 7:22 PM PST [!]
posted by ND¢ at 8:21 PM on January 11, 2006

Would it help if I could somehow retain a lawyer?

...Wow.
posted by Gator at 8:22 PM on January 11, 2006

Have there been problems? Has Matt or any MeFi member ever been sued in connection with the site?
posted by Count Ziggurat at 8:24 PM on January 11, 2006

The line of copy or the disclaimer would be the legal equivalent of "Proceed at your own risk"--something like,

"This question and any information posted by the original poster may be used against you in a court of law. MetaFilter assumes no liability and recommends you consult an attorney immediately before posting anything more to this thread."

Also, this should not have been posted to "bugs".
posted by fandango_matt at 8:26 PM on January 11, 2006

posted by Count Ziggurat Have there been problems? Has Matt or any MeFi member ever been sued in connection with the site?

I don't know, and I'm not a lawyer, but I would think the case could be made as such:

1. MetaFilter has no disclaimer for posting questions about crime(s).

2. User X posts questions about his/her/a friend's arrest, reveals details about the crime.

3. Prosecuter finds MetaFilter thread, uses question as evidence. User X is convicted.

4. User X sues Matt, claiming he or she was not warned that posting about crime could be used against him or her.

Any lawyers want to offer up advice on this one?
posted by fandango_matt at 8:33 PM on January 11, 2006

Holy shit. Best use of "batshitinsane" tag, ever.
posted by loquacious at 8:36 PM on January 11, 2006

I'm so totally not a fucking lawyer, but, uhm, #4 would never happen. At least, I hope not. It'd take one hell of a dumb-assed judge to even allow such a suit to go to trial.

It's common knowledge that all portions of MeFi are readable by the public, login account or no. There's a clearly visible "anonymous" function in AskMe.

It'd be the equivalent of walking into a public bar and announcing something like "My shoes and underpants are fulla coke and smack! WEEE!" and then getting arrested, and then suing the bar owner for not providing some kind of arbitrary fair notice that there was an officer in the bar.
posted by loquacious at 8:41 PM on January 11, 2006

Questions like this shouldn't be posted to AskMe in the first place — and when they are, they should be deleted.
posted by cribcage at 8:44 PM on January 11, 2006

I'd just like to point something out that many of you may not realize -- not everyone knows how to find a lawyer. If I needed a lawyer, I'm not sure I'd even know how to get a good one. Oh, sure I could pick one out of the phone book, but all you "get a lawyer" folks could do worse that to figure out a way to help people understand how to select and hire a lawyer. I'm just sayin', is all....
posted by anastasiav at 8:44 PM on January 11, 2006

posted by loquacious I'm so totally not a fucking lawyer, but, uhm, #4 would never happen. At least, I hope not. It'd take one hell of a dumb-assed judge to even allow such a suit to go to trial.

That may be true, but that doesn't mean it can't happen, and if it did, Matt would have to hire an attorney. I'm simply proposing a disclaimer is very cheap insurance against that kind of lawsuit.
posted by fandango_matt at 8:50 PM on January 11, 2006

Cribcage: I was thinking that too, and saw some folks suggest it in thread, but couldn't that also open Matt to some sort of conspiracy/foreknowledge/cover-up accusations?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:07 PM on January 11, 2006

It was not my intent to start a shit-storm in AksMe. Desperate times call for desperate measures. AskMe is a great forum for such things. (Good info from good people.)

For the record: My friend is anonymous and shall remain so. I can be considered a "family member" of his/her's. If I thought that the post would in any way be detrimental to their well- being I would have posted anonymously.

Some jams are bigger than others, when I get into a jam or if I hear of someone getting into a jam, I don't hesitate to hit AskMe.
posted by snsranch at 9:10 PM on January 11, 2006

This is a stupid post... no one in the thread said anything like run for mexico (which would in fact be negligent) - the only problem is the borderline uselessness of "get a lawyer comments" which are similar to telling someone in 9th ward in NO to get a bucket... the dude needs a very specialized lawyer - and very good one to minimize his exposure. a clowny town defense lawyer could do more damage than good.
posted by specialk420 at 9:15 PM on January 11, 2006

Metafilter's a (very) open forum - exactly like a bar or the street outside it, except that thanks to the magic of the internet, everything here's recorded permanently. I guess that wouldn't necessarily stop somebody from trying to sue, but it surely would prevent them from succeeding.

There's a pretty low bar to filing suit. Since the disclaimer wouldn't come in until you deeper into the process (which would quickly come to screeching halt anyway due to the "internet privacy" misnomer), it's tough to see how a disclaimer would help Metafilter.
posted by johnwilcox at 9:16 PM on January 11, 2006

I agree with loquacious that a lawsuit arising from these facts would be frivolous. You're right that the nuisance and cost of a lawsuit is a threat in itself even if there is no exposure. But I don't see a general disclaimer as providing "insurance" against a frivolous lawsuit -- the plaintiff would just argue that the admins review and prune lots of questions on AskMe and their failure to delete this one was negligent/whatever. Dumb, sure, but no dumber than the original theory.

anastasiav raises a good point -- it's not easy to find a good lawyer if you don't have connections. My advice in the absence of such connections is to identify the "star" criminal lawyers in your area -- you can do searches of local news, bar association websites, etc. to figure out who they are. If you can't afford them -- which is likely considering the rates that top lawyers charge -- they will likely refer you to a very good alternative that fits your budget.

On preview, snsranch reminds me of my original reaction to this post: that it's a good use of AskMe, especially considering the overhwhelming and sound advice to consult an attorney.
posted by brain_drain at 9:17 PM on January 11, 2006

snsranch, you did nothing wrong.

cribcage: Questions like this shouldn't be posted to AskMe in the first place — and when they are, they should be deleted.

I couldn't disagree with the above statement more. What exactly was wrong with that question, cribcage? What bothers you about it so much?

Anyway, fandango_matt, you know #1 has a lawyer, right? Do you really think he hasn't discussed liability issues with that lawyer? Matt's said he won't allow questions about growing pot on the site (along with a couple of other topics), but a question about possible consequences for getting caught for a crime? Come on.
posted by mediareport at 9:17 PM on January 11, 2006

I don't think you started a shitstorm, and that's not the reason I started this thread. I do think your friend is in quite a bit more than just "a jam"--he's in a great deal of trouble, and he needs to hire an attorney immediately.

The fact you know so much about this case leads me to think he's been talking to you about it, which means he's talking to other people about it, and he really needs to stop doing that. Now.
posted by fandango_matt at 9:18 PM on January 11, 2006

no one in the thread said anything like run for mexico

you were saying?
posted by Krrrlson at 9:18 PM on January 11, 2006

snsranch -

There's no such thing as an anonymous post. Get a lawyer and stop talking about your family in open forums.

(Do what you like, of course, but you did ask for advice)
posted by johnwilcox at 9:20 PM on January 11, 2006

you were saying?

i guess i spoke too soon - that post should be deleted - perposterous. what a moron.
posted by specialk420 at 9:24 PM on January 11, 2006

no one in the thread said anything like run for mexico (which would in fact be negligent)

Negligent? What are you talking about? Are you using that term in the legal sense? Or some other sense that, uh, doesn't make any sense? Is there anyone here who really thinks there would be liability to Matt because someone mentioned in the thread that leaving the country is an obvious option for snsranch's pal?
posted by mediareport at 9:37 PM on January 11, 2006

no one in the thread said anything like run for mexico (which would in fact be negligent)

Negligent would be not mentioning how this guy will miss several years of Amsterdam's Cannibis Cup competition if he doesn't get a lawyer now.
posted by Rothko at 10:07 PM on January 11, 2006

Is there anyone here who really thinks there would be liability to Matt because someone mentioned in the thread that leaving the country is an obvious option for snsranch's pal?

No.
posted by kosem at 10:14 PM on January 11, 2006

.

(a tear shed for the high quality cannabis that will, alas, no longer be hitting the streets of Seattle)
posted by Jimbob at 10:56 PM on January 11, 2006

Let me see. The guy's "friend" gets busted with seruious weight in a controlled substance, and he asks if it would help to somehow retain a lawyer.

What an idiotic frikken question to ask. It's like saying, "Hey I have an open suppurating wound in my chest. Would it help if I somehow got a doctor?"

No wonder they call it dope.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 11:40 PM on January 11, 2006

Even if it's true that no judge would allow some specific lawsuit to make it to trial, that doesn't mean there's no impact on the prospective defendant. It sucks to have someone begin to sue you; you have to do stuff you would otherwise not do. At the very least, it eats some energy.

The best thing would be if people would refrain from discussing their (or their friends' or relatives') criminal activities on any of these forums. Really, just don't. The only useful responses are always the same one. Just find a lawyer. If you don't know how to do that, make an AskMe post about finding one, without telling us why you need one.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:36 AM on January 12, 2006

All these questions about liability that constantly pop up regarding AskMe kind of creep me out, because it seems like eventually we will be so hamstrung in terms of what we can discuss, that it will barely be worthwhile. "I followed this recipe recommended in Ask MetaFilter, and the cake blew up in my oven! Now I'm suing Matt Haughey for a new stove and psychological damages!"

It seems like there could be a nice, tidy, attorney-crafted line at the top of the page that says something like users use at their own risk; the site is not liable for any damages incurred by following advice given here, no advice herein is to be considered a professional recommendation, and no user's anonymity can be 100% assured.
posted by taz at 4:54 AM on January 12, 2006

taz is right. If we're going to put a scary, legalese disclaimer text on the green it'd make sense to put a single such disclaimer that would apply to all questions. AskMe might need a 'Terms of Use'. (Though it's really the blue that needs such terms. There oughta be a limit to how many fat jokes you can make before criminal damages kick in.) Then again, it seems people overestimate the effectiveness of such disclaimers. Like most legalese, they have no binding power and I doubt they'd actually stop somebody from suing matt if the person was really intent on it.
posted by nixerman at 5:33 AM on January 12, 2006

In this days and times, I don't think anyone is protected from being sued almost anywhere in the world. But it is a long way from being careful (as AskMe always is, with questions about how to commit crimes being deleted) to trying to control every possible liability. The question at hand is perfectly valid and "Find a lawyer" is just one answer. If rephrased as "What would be the steps to take in case you get accused of a crime?" (with more inside saying "Suppose the police discovers, say, crop of marijuana in your backyard, what would be the expected jail time and what would represent the best course of action?") we wouldn't even be here.
posted by nkyad at 6:40 AM on January 12, 2006

That may be true, but that doesn't mean it can't happen, and if it did, Matt would have to hire an attorney. I'm simply proposing a disclaimer is very cheap insurance against that kind of lawsuit.

Not any more likely then me suing you for larding up my favorite website with annoying disclamers.
posted by delmoi at 7:46 AM on January 12, 2006

And it's not like disclamers would reduce the risk anyway.
posted by delmoi at 7:46 AM on January 12, 2006

What is the deal with everyone wanting to be matt's pretend lawyer. He's an adult and can take care of himself, and he already has a real lawyer. That thread and this Meta thread are filled with hysterical yelling from people who didn't read the whole question and think that they're lawyers for whatever reason.

It is not ok for a defendant to talk about his crime. It is OK for a friend of a defendant to talk about his "alleged" crime. As long as the defendant just informed him of publicly available facts of the case.

I mean seriously, the tread is kind of useless. It's just full of people screaming "Get a lawyer". snsranch probably didn't help things by his phrasing.
posted by delmoi at 7:55 AM on January 12, 2006

I was really hoping this was a callout on all the bozos who apparently haven't cleaned their glass eye in a long time and were unable to read the very clear "not really me of course," resulting in the flurry of get a lawyer! don't talk to anyone! stop posting on teh inturwub!

Get a lawyer, see a doctor, blah blah blah blah. Why do we have so many people who are SO sure they're the arbiters of what is The Correct Use Of AskMe? Clearly they're mentally challenged as well, since they can't even manage to use the proper personal pronoun in their unhelpful babble.
posted by phearlez at 8:15 AM on January 12, 2006

These kind of threads, with the associated callout are the reason why I visit Metafilter. It's like a slow-motion car wreck, and if you get in on it early enough, the relief and peace that comes when it all finally crumbles down around itself is almost... palpable.
posted by blue_beetle at 8:27 AM on January 12, 2006

"If I thought that the post would in any way be detrimental to their well- being I would have posted anonymously."

snsranch - You are an idiot. I don't say this as an insult, but rather as a plea or warning which might motivate you to shut up in the future. Short of going to the arresting officer and having this discussion, the worst thing you could do for your friend is opening a debate about his case on a public forum.

I just want to make sure you realize that you aren't mentally or emotionally capable of making this sort of call. I'm sure you're very successful at other things. But when it comes to legal or criminal situations you are really dumb. Please take that into consideration in the future.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:44 AM on January 12, 2006

y6y6y6 writes "Short of going to the arresting officer and having this discussion, the worst thing you could do for your friend is opening a debate about his case on a public forum."

How is this any different than us debating the DeLay case? snsranch hasn't given us anything that isn't publicly available[1] and I doubt any of our advice would be novel to the DA.

[1] Heck the DA's office probably released all the information contained in the AskMe in a press release. At least around here we get everything but the accused mother's maiden name.
posted by Mitheral at 9:04 AM on January 12, 2006

not everyone knows how to find a lawyer. If I needed a lawyer, I'm not sure I'd even know how to get a good one. Oh, sure I could pick one out of the phone book, but all you "get a lawyer" folks could do worse that to figure out a way to help people understand how to select and hire a lawyer. - anastasiav

This is a great point. If for some reason I got arrested and was supposed to call a lawyer, I'd have no idea what to do next. Not a clue. We can't be the only ones in this boat. What do people do once they're arrested and need representation?
posted by raedyn at 11:05 AM on January 12, 2006

snsranch - You are an idiot. I don't say this as an insult, but rather as a plea or warning which might motivate you to shut up in the future. Short of going to the arresting officer and having this discussion, the worst thing you could do for your friend is opening a debate about his case on a public forum.

No, you are an idiot. This case was already in the news paper for Christ sakes, and the guy didn't release anything that wasn't public info anyway. All he said was that the guy was arrested, and why. Sheesh.
posted by delmoi at 11:52 AM on January 12, 2006

Assuming you are in the US, that's the nice part about "or one will be provided for you." Once you do the right thing and shut the hell up, the cops will arrange for your public defender. You can change attorneys at your leisure later after your PD assists you in getting released on a promise to appear or with bail.
posted by phearlez at 11:54 AM on January 12, 2006

This is a great point. If for some reason I got arrested and was supposed to call a lawyer, I'd have no idea what to do next. Not a clue. We can't be the only ones in this boat. What do people do once they're arrested and need representation?

Hmm, the last comment in there at this point is a recommendation to contact NORML, who should be able to provide legal referrals.
posted by delmoi at 11:55 AM on January 12, 2006

It's true that he can get a free lawyer from the government (although he might have to pay legal costs if he's convicted) but those guys aren't the greatest, and they are usually overworked as well.
posted by delmoi at 11:57 AM on January 12, 2006

posted by delmoi Not any more likely[sic] then[sic] me suing you for larding up my favorite website with annoying disclamers.[sic]

Much in the same way you're larding up this thread with your idiotic remarks.
posted by fandango_matt at 12:06 PM on January 12, 2006

Assuming you are in the US,

I'm not. This information is available on my userpage.

You can change attorneys at your leisure later after your PD assists you in getting released on a promise to appear or with bail. - phearlez

Even then, I don't know how I'd figure out who I wanted to change to.
posted by raedyn at 12:07 PM on January 12, 2006

I'm not. This information is available on my userpage.

My apologies - "assuming ONE is in the US", and "Once ONE does the right thing"

As far as how you'd figure it out, well, how would you figure any other professional hiring out? You call some people listed in the yellow pages and ask them questions, ask your friends for suggestions or post to AskMe "Any suggestions for a good criminal defense lawyer in or near the canadian prairies?"
posted by phearlez at 12:17 PM on January 12, 2006

raedyn writes "What do people do once they're arrested and need representation?"

The boy scout motto to the rescue!

Seriously, cultivate a legal relationship now. Ask your parents, cleric, friends for recommendations and then talk to a few of them. Have them draw up a will or similiar minor matter. Then keep their card/number with you. Even if they don't do criminal law they will be able to refer you to a partner, associate, or someone else who does.

In Canada talking to the police can almost never help you, especially if you've been arrested or brought to a station for questioning. Say nothing until you talk to a laywer; who will probably tell you to say nothing.
posted by Mitheral at 12:54 PM on January 12, 2006

I have been instructed that it is less appropriate to call people 'assholes' in AskMeta than in MetaTalk - even less appropriate, apparently, than giving glib, deeply nonserious and destructive "advice" in AskMe - so, in compliance, allow me to just say:

"Man, those "run for the border" guys were sure irresponsible assholes."

That is all.
posted by dgaicun at 1:03 PM on January 12, 2006

Down with excessive disclaimers. Let's keep the comparisons between Metafilter and a cup of McDonald's coffee to an absolute minimum.
posted by desuetude at 3:02 PM on January 12, 2006

That may be true, but that doesn't mean it can't happen, and if it did, Matt would have to hire an attorney. I'm simply proposing a disclaimer is very cheap insurance against that kind of lawsuit.

False. A disclaimer will not prevent a lawsuit any more than an Indian Lawsuit Dance will prevent a lawsuit. If someone wants to sue anyone, for any reason, they are free to do so. It doesn't mean they will win, or that it would even go to trial, but that wasn't your point.

snsranch did nothing wrong, and none of the advice (not even the "run!" advice) should be deleted. You can't get arrested for asking for or listening to bad advice. Taking the bad advice is another matter altogether.

For fucking fuck's sake, there are some giant pussified invertebrets on this fucking website.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:40 PM on January 12, 2006

I am a lawyer and this thread is probably not getting much attention anymore, but I just want to tell C_D that I'm going to steal the Indian Lawsuit Dance.
posted by The Bellman at 3:59 PM on January 12, 2006

Well, I wish he'd at least provided a link to said dance. I would like to see it.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:32 AM on January 13, 2006

I'm mainly amused that soiled cowboy said that Cambodia was "a country with more enlightened views on personal liberties."
posted by occhiblu at 9:43 AM on January 13, 2006

I have been instructed that it is less appropriate to call people 'assholes' in AskMeta than in MetaTalk - even less appropriate, apparently, than giving glib, deeply nonserious and destructive "advice" in AskMe

Wow. What a prickish way to acknowledge being an asshole. Bravo, dgaicun.
posted by mediareport at 5:49 PM on January 13, 2006