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"Most men take a mistress" -- Really? I doubt it.Since scientific data on this can not exist, the best determiners are surveys that ask people to anonymously self-identify as cheaters. Many such surveys exist. The results vary significantly depending on the question and how random the sample is, but they seem to indicate that, over an entire lifetime, a majority of people cheat at some point on someone.
I have news for you, grasshopper. Many men do, in fact, cheat on their lovers/so's/whathaveyou.Do you mean that "many men do in fact cheat in every relationship", "many men do in fact cheat at least once in their lives", or "many men cheat in the relationship they are currently in"? I think we can agree they mean different things.
Oddly enough, many women do the same.Which is why I said "over an entire lifetime, a majority of people cheat at some point on someone." Furthermore, some survey data suggests that women cheat even more frequently.
Cheating on someone is not at all the same thing as "taking a mistress."That's probably true, but taking a mistress is definitely cheating:
A woman who has a continuing sexual relationship with a usually married man who is not her husband and from whom she generally receives material support. 1I don't know of any survey data that differentiates between the two. To tell you the truth, I had no idea that taking a mistress involved material support. I don't think that's what The Jesse Helms was implying.
If you can't make it work with her sexually, you could consider meeting your sexual needs outside of the relationship. Many people have non-monogamous relationships either with or without the knowledge of their signficant other. It's not for everyone, but it could be worth exploring. Read about other couples that are making it work here and here.People still would have disagreed with you, but not with such venom. I doubt it would have made so much of thread a reaction to you. Was your delivery intentionally provocative, or did it not occur to you that you could put it in a more palatable form?
Yes, you're way off base here.For starters, I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that based on a strict reading of the phrase "taking a mistress", using citations from literature, dictionaries, and other academic resources, that I am wrong. I doubt, however, that in the context of this discussion I am way off base. Look, languagehat, you're one of my favorite posters. I respect you and your expertise immensely. That doesn't make you infallible, by any means, and that doesn't make you right.
As vetiver said above, the point is that it's a continuing sexual relationship.It should be pretty clear to anyone reading the AskMe thread that people's objections did not hinge upon whether or not The Jesse Helms was advocating a continued sexual relationship outside of his existing relationship. In fact, I'm quite certain, given the responses, people were objecting solely to the advice to solve the problem by having sex with someone other than his girlfriend. Why you, and others, would insist, again, in the context of the original AskMe thread, that taking a mistress is significantly different than the suggestion to go out and have a one night stand is beyond me.
Plenty of people cheat, which can involve a single blow job; quite a lot fewer maintain a continuing outside relationship, which is the bare minimum requirement for the use of "mistress."While I appreciate your attempts to educate me about the difference between blow jobs and a mistress, I unfortunately remember The Blow Job That Ruined America. If you read through the results, you can certainly find evidence, as I did, supporting the common usage of the word as you suggest it and as I merely claim to have heard.
If you've heard "numerous people" use mistress so freely (which, frankly, I don't believe, since I hardly ever encounter the word in modern contexts—it's largely a relic of pre-feminist days)That's pretty dense for someone who is generally quite prolific in their analysis of language. First, go outside and engage the public more often. It might offend your sensibilities, but you'll hear the word mistress used. Hell, it’s in the press quite regularly meaning exactly what you propose it means. You're right, though, at least in your account of who I hear (not read) using the word. It's not my peer group, people born in the early 1970's. However, if you listen to people of my parent’s generation speak, born in the early 1950's or their parents, born between WWI and WWII, the word is used with increasing frequency.
they do not understand the wordTry as you might, you do not control the language. Come down from your ivory tower. Put your latte down. Join the conversation. In fact, to hear you say this eats away at your integrity. Language is living and changing and primarily controlled by non-academics through usage. Hell, even the OED doesn't officially create words, it just takes a bibliographic approach to documenting when words are first used for each implied meaing. You're no Dr. W.C. Minor! (Mostly because you're alive and probably not nearly as crazy, but that's besides the point.)
To quote vetiver once again: It's a trivial difference only if you're sloppy about usage and tone-deaf to connotation.I was willing to let this go the first time it was said, but now that I've bothered to respond at all, I might as well add that no one is that impressed with your MLA monogrammed codpiece.
or any further sophistry on your part1What is misleading or fallacious about my argument?
What makes him right here is his superior arguments.1And what are these superior arguments? What is inferior about the conclusion that, in the context of this post, the issue is cheating, not the other implications of taking a mistress. You're not even trying to engage in discussion.
can make "Most men take a mistress" a correct or moderate assertion.1You use such big words for someone with such a limited level of reading comprehension. That is patently not my argument. I am arguing simply that most people cheat on one sexual partner, regardless of their marital status, at some point in their life. (See the note below.) Furthermore, that's what I believe TJH was inferring and what people are reacting to.
More married women are cheating on their spouses than ever before and the infidelity gender gap is almost certainly closing, report Contributing Editor Lorraine Ali and Senior Editor Lisa Miller in the July 12 Newsweek cover story (on newsstands Monday, July 5). It's hard to say for sure just how many married women are having sex with people who are not their husbands, because people lie to pollsters when they talk about sex, and studies vary wildly. ... But couples therapists estimate that among their clientele, the number is close to 30 to 40 percent, compared with 50 percent of men.An MSN Lifestyle article says about the same New York Times poll, which is titled "The Way We Live Now Poll" and is from the New York Times Magazine published on May 7, 2000:
A poll done by the New York Times in 2000 found that 44 percent of the male respondents admitted to having had an extramarital affair (and that percentage doesn't include those unfaithful guys who weren't willing to own up to their transgressions).2Find a copy of Pestrak, Martin & Martin's article in the International Journal of Family Therapy or Scarfs article in Cosmopolitan where it is reported:
...that in the United States, 50% to 65% of husbands and 45% to 55% of wives have been engaged in an extramarital affair by the time they are 40. Owing to underreporting, this figure may actually underestimate the percentages of people engaging or previously engaged in affairs.Don't limit yourself to searching Lexis, you can find this information on the web with great ease.
I love the smell of cognitive dissonance in the morning!1That's brilliant editing there, languagehat. For what it's worth, that comment wasn't directed at you. You didn't even write the quote to which I was replying. Read it again.
I suggest you step away from the computer1I believe jessamyn is right. We're just talking past each other here. To that end I, too, rest my case in this thread.
"Taking a mistress" is not exactly the same thing as "cheating". It's that, and more. I don't know why anyone is arguing about this.Ethereal Bligh, I wasn't arguing that, but I guess I did a poor job of making that clear.
there's a big difference between saying "oh everyone does it" and saying "you should do it to solve your problem" 1I was trying to take an objective approach. My first comment starts with my belief that objectiviy in regards to whether or not most men take a mistress is complicated to the point of near impossibility. The closest thing, in the data I have seen, is data about cheating. (And that's where people began to think I was equating cheating with the word mistress.)
The couple came into the marital counselor's office exhibiting some of the problems that landed them there. They argued. He made jokes bordering on criticism. She didn't talk about her feelings until halfway through therapy, when she dropped a bomb: She was having an affair.The same article says, "At least 25 percent of men and 15 percent of women have had an affair." Which should be considered as evidence in the difficulty in knowing how many people do have affairs.
Her husband was devastated. But as they discussed her confession, the couple began to talk more openly than they had in years. In fact, the wife's revelation, say marital researchers, may have saved the marriage.
I appreciate rebuttals, and listen intently to criticism. Yet, there is something to be said for letting the poster make up his or her own mind. My experience has led me to certain defining positions. It is almost certain to be different than yours. Differences may include geography, income, experience, travel, whatever. My point, then, is to ask for calmness in answering hot button topics. Respect others. We are together not in experience but in intent. Although it is possible I am taking the Internet too seriously.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 9:44 AM on March 31, 2006