Comments on: Dealing with illegal questions on AskMe

Dealing with illegal questions on AskMe

jjg — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:46:20 -0800

Do we need a note on the AskMe "post a question" page that says "Please don't ask for advice on how to do something illegal"?

By: delmoi

delmoi — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:51:55 -0800

I'd like to point out that while removing the DRM is illegal, discussing how to remove the DRM is legal.

By: squirrel

squirrel — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:52:49 -0800

Yes, indeed! And before I anwser any questions about making cocktails, I insist on some sort of age verification.

By: Space Coyote

Space Coyote — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:53:56 -0800

No.

There are many valid reasons why someone would want to do something that may be illegal somewhere (which could vary by State or Province let alone by country.) Individual MeFites are perfectly capable of deciding if their personal ethics allow them to answer the question.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:54:53 -0800

Also, it may be legal to remove the DRM if it's necessary in order to use the product.

By: Bugbread

Bugbread — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:54:59 -0800

jjg posted "Do we need a note on the AskMe 'post a question' page that says 'Please don't ask for advice on how to do something illegal'?"

Dunno. Do we need to not provide advice on how to do something illegal?

By: mathowie

mathowie — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:56:59 -0800

jessamyn and I talked about this earlier this morning. I'm kind of on the fence -- normally we kick illegal questions (drugs, warez, etc) but PDFs seemed rather minor, sort of like talking about jaywalking so I didn't vote to remove it.

By: trey

trey — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:57:03 -0800

Shhh, you'll attract Cory Doctorow.

By: keswick

keswick — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:01:25 -0800

Yeah, right, like he ever leaves the safe confines of the gated community known as Boing Boing.

By: matteo

matteo — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:09:40 -0800

I don't need to crack pdf files, but it's an interesting and informative thread anyway, I'm glad it's still up

By: smackfu

smackfu — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:15:52 -0800

The only point of adding that note would be so people could point to it as "the rule" when they want a thread deleted over Matt's objection.

By: keijo

keijo — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:22:29 -0800

I second matteo and thank Steve_at_Linnwood in that thread - I have needed to do something definitely _not_ illegal to a protected .pdf and now I know how. It is not the question, it's what you do with it. Not that we want questions about where to get the best warez but this is different IMHO.

By: andrew cooke

andrew cooke — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:43:03 -0800

this is different IMHO

how is it different? because are books are middle-class, while games are more lower-class? seriously - wht is it ok to hack documents, but not games? they're both data. they're both "victimless" to a similar degree.

i think there are more important issues in the world to get excited about - i'm just curious what the basis is for this (apparently common) decision and the marxist in me sees a class issue...

By: TimeFactor

TimeFactor — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:44:55 -0800

I would be so into a site that only answered questions about how to do illegal things. I have no idea where it could be hosted though.

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:51:57 -0800

Maybe you should Ask?

By: Bugbread

Bugbread — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:52:41 -0800

andrew cooke : "the marxist in me sees a class issue..."

I'd guess that it's more a matter of time. The ability to copy books has existed for quite a few centuries. The ability to protect against copying books is only a miniscule part of the history of books. With software, the ability to copy software has existed for decades, but the ability to protect against it is a much larger percentage of the history of software. So, probably, in many people's minds, the default status of "book" is "copyable, though technically illegal", and of "software" is "copyable, but quite illegal".

Just a guess.

By: solid-one-love

solid-one-love — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:59:45 -0800

Circumventing DRM is not illegal in all jurisdictions nor under all circumstances. Neither Matt nor Jess are lawyers and are thus not competant to determine whether many acts would be illegal. They will nuke the most egregious examples.

For questions like this, people should just let it go and quit calling them out.

By: Plutor

Plutor — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:05:41 -0800

My wife doesn't like me crossing when the sign says "DON'T WALK". I insist that I intend to run. Should I get a divorce?

By: keijo

keijo — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:10:25 -0800

andrew cooke, it is different because posting questions and answers (not actual data) is not illegal in either case (at least in the legal systems I am aware of) BUT posting warez sites and cracks etc. is more likely to get Matt into trouble just because it is such a hot issue with millions of people looking for such information.

Again, it is up to the reader of any information posted here to decide what to do with it.

By: tkolar

tkolar — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:12:12 -0800

My wife doesn't like me crossing when the sign says "DON'T WALK". I insist that I intend to run. Should I get a divorce?

No, getting her to run with you will help her lose that weight that's been bugging you.

By: tkolar

tkolar — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:19:46 -0800

keijo wrote...
Not that we want questions about where to get the best warez but this is different IMHO.

andrew cooke wrote...
how is it different? because are books are middle-class, while games are more lower-class? seriously - wht is it ok to hack documents, but not games?

I can't speak to what keijo was thinking, but I will point out that the repeated posts about Starforce copy protection have presented a lot of ways to get round it.

I think the line being drawn on Metafilter is less about books versus games, and more about "information on breaking copy protection" vs. "Get your free warez here".

By: matteo

matteo — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:24:47 -0800

because are books are middle-class, while games are more lower-class?

11.02 vs 59.99?

By: blue_beetle

blue_beetle — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:26:21 -0800

It's only illegal in certain cases. Example: using some kind of PDF DRM cracking software is illegal (in certain jurisdictions) because you are circumventing the DRM. However, printing to another PDF file isn't, because you're not doing anything to the DRM, and in most cases you're using authors own software to make a free copy.

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:39:20 -0800

how is it different? because are books are middle-class, while games are more lower-class?

Computer games are lower-class? I don't see it. You tend to need a nice computer to run those things, too.

By: drstein

drstein — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:40:37 -0800

I think that this might be a little different because it sounds like he has already planned to purchase the PDF, and isn't trying to crack one that was obtained elsewhere. He simply needs to have the file that he is going to purchase be usable on his laptop and his desktop.

At least that is how it read to me. Seems like a reasonable request.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:44:01 -0800

andrew cooke, it is different because posting questions and answers (not actual data) is not illegal in either case (at least in the legal systems I am aware of) BUT posting warez sites and cracks etc. is more likely to get Matt into trouble just because it is such a hot issue with millions of people looking for such information.

That's absurd. I don't think anyone has ever gotten "In trouble" for talking about pirating games. Giving out games? Yes. Giving out cracks, possible. Discussing it? Never happened.

I'm not actually sure what matt's motivation is for these restrictions.

By: Ryvar

Ryvar — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:44:05 -0800

By: Armitage Shanks

Armitage Shanks — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:45:04 -0800

I would be so into a site that only answered questions about how to do illegal things. I have no idea where it could be hosted though.

That would be a good AskMe question.

By: ?!

?! — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:45:05 -0800

What jurisdiction and whose laws do we have to follow? Where I live, where the poster lives or where the server lives?

By: geoff.

geoff. — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:38:31 -0800

The book I purchased was for a term paper I am doing and I am quite paranoid that I'll lose this primary source at the last minute (I'm sure stranger things have happened). In the past I'd copy relevant sections of a book at the campus library (which have copy machines all over the place). The site I bought it from (effectively the publisher) states that I can print out the document. If I make a copy of this printed copy is that illegal? Or if I print to PDF instead of to paper is that illegal? It seems clearly quite ethical and absurd if that is a violation of the letter of the law (and I would guess many courts would believe so too).

It seems like the concept of ownership is gone and I'm simply leasing the book from the company. Oh how sad this is.

By: dios

dios — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:42:21 -0800

I'm not actually sure what matt's motivation is for these restrictions.
posted by delmoi at 2:44 PM CST on April 17

He wants to make sure people don't violate HIPPA.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:47:49 -0800

Do we need a note on the AskMe "post a question" page that says "Please don't ask for advice on how to do something illegal"?

Somebody want to explain in words of one syllable why on earth this might be necessary?

I don't get it. Seriously.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:51:12 -0800

If I post a question about schtupping my 14 year old neighbour, will it be deleted? 'cause AFAIK, it's perfectly legal for me to get it on with 14 year olds in Canada.

Or how about partying up with booze with 18 year olds? Legal in Alberta. Not in BC. Definitely not in the USA, where the legal drinking age appears to be twenty-one (!!!)

In Canada, I can lend a friend a CD, and they can legally copy it. (Oddly, it's illegal for me to burn the CD and give it to them.)

Short form: the laws are so variable that, on the internet, there's little point in getting too gung-ho on trying to uphold them.

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:23:38 -0800

dios: I'm pretty sure you mean HIPA.

(HIPAA also acceptable)

By: matkline

matkline — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:26:37 -0800

I agree totally with five fresh fish and Space Coyote. Metafilter shouldn't be beholden to laws of any country. Because then where will I get my marijuana butter recipes.

By: cortex

cortex — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:29:40 -0800

un-ironic non-misspelled mispelling of HIPAA = ZING FAILURE

By: booksandlibretti

booksandlibretti — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:02:21 -0800

Infamously, asking questions about shady stuff is not always wrong. It also gets you a lot of interesting information (including, sometimes, which members to avoid at meetups).

By: weapons-grade pandemonium

weapons-grade pandemonium — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:11:59 -0800

In the 1930s, women in Quebec were asking shady questions about voting rights.
They got those rights in 1940. Should they not have been asking those questions?

By: cellphone

cellphone — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:16:21 -0800

Infamously, asking questions about shady stuff is not always wrong. It also gets you a lot of interesting information (including, sometimes, which members to avoid at meetups).
posted by booksandlibretti at 5:02 PM CST on April 17 [!]

old

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:17:57 -0800

"In the 1930s, women in Quebec were asking shady questions about voting rights. They got those rights in 1940. Should they not have been asking those questions?"

Ah. See? This is why so many sober people think that anti-IP zealots are nucking futs.

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:19:43 -0800

ZING FAILURE is reified into hyperirony, ironically indistinguishable from guileless unpretension, apriorily precluding any such critiques.

...FOR THE SAVE!!!! GAOOOOOLLLL!!!!!!

By: cortex

cortex — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:21:02 -0800

apriorily is not a word

FAIL

By: Bugbread

Bugbread — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:34:39 -0800

cortex : "FAIL"

Fail is not a word

UNPASS!

By: cortex

cortex — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:37:04 -0800

Fail is not a word

Dammit. I specifically requested the no-hoising finish coat. I'm gonna sue that goddam petard mercharnt.

By: matteo

matteo — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:54:10 -0800

I have no idea where it could be hosted though.

North Korea?

also, I love that HAPPY HAPPY HIPPAS game

By: matteo

matteo — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:54:34 -0800

(or is it hungry hippas?)

By: flabdablet

flabdablet — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:18:02 -0800

ISTM that PDF "protection" is just so lame that nobody could reasonably expect it to be taken seriously. It strikes me as more of an ill-considered nuisance than an actual copy protection mechanism.

IANAL and I don't live in the US.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:39:32 -0800

I think we should make it easy and just follow the laws of Singapore.

By: Bugbread

Bugbread — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:14:12 -0800

five fresh fish : "I think we should make it easy and just follow the laws of Singapore."

Agreed. Matt, please add a note on the AskMe "post a question" page that says "Please don't ask questions about chewing gum".

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 18:00:52 -0800

The police must routinely discuss how illegal things are done, and so must informed citizens who choose to be on the lookout for illegal activities, like people making pot brownies. AskMe is therefore a valuable resource for ~~Heimatsekuritat~~ Homeland Security. An informed citizenry is our best defense against ~~scary foreigners~~ people who hate us for our freedom. Yay AskMe!

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:53:19 -0800

does that count as a godwin?

By: dg

dg — Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:20:17 -0800

Somebody want to explain in words of one syllable why on earth this might be necessary?
But, before you answer, work out how this can be filtered so that it only shows to those for whom it is illegal, which is the minority of people worldwide, as I understand it.