Why was this question closed?

May 2, 2006 8:18 PM

Why was this question closed -- it was really not all that bad and was generating some good answers....What is metachat (where they told me to post it)?

Thanks -- http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/37437
posted by skepticallypleased to Etiquette/Policy at 8:18 PM (49 comments total)

"This post was deleted for the following reason: chatfilter, might want to re-ask on metachat."
posted by five fresh fish at 8:20 PM on May 2, 2006

Metachat.org--a great site. I'll betcha someone has reposted it already.
posted by LarryC at 8:28 PM on May 2, 2006

AskMe questions should have a purpose, goal, or problem to be solved. Open-ended chatty questions that don't offer a problem to be solved are detrimental to the long term usefulness of the site.

That question was basically the definition of chatfilter.

Metachat is a site populated by many of the same people as Metafilter, where threads like this are more tolerated.
posted by BackwardsCity at 8:29 PM on May 2, 2006

Really, when you say right in your question that it might be too chatty, how can you pretend to be surprised that it is subsequently deleted as being too chatty?
posted by jacquilynne at 8:49 PM on May 2, 2006

Yep, it's been reposted at MetaChat already.
posted by jmhodges at 9:03 PM on May 2, 2006

jessamyn came up with a pretty good indicator of chatfilter nonsense "questions" that fill space and don't provide anything more useful than everyone giving their opinion on things. They always include the phrase "I'll go first."

"I'll go first" means everyone just gets to say what they think and it kind of loses the utility of the resource, which is why we like to see clearly defined questions that might have some answer that can be pointed to as correct.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:07 PM on May 2, 2006

The standards for chatfilter seem to depend almost entirely on what Matt or Jessamyn had for dinner the previous day, and/or how recently they've gotten some lovin', and/or a primitive names-of-god random number generator built out of granite and timber buried somewhere deep in the cellars of a monastery in the Himalayas, and/or whether the weather is nice that day.

It sometimes seems that almost as often as a chatty thread is closed, it gets left alone and eventually sidebarred on the front page and held up as an example of the best of the site.

Which is fine with me. I'm not complaining, just noting.

On preview, and/or if the phrase 'I'll go first' is included in the post. Heh.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:10 PM on May 2, 2006

What if they said "here's an example of the kind of answer I'm looking for" instead?
posted by agropyron at 9:17 PM on May 2, 2006

stavros, we let people post first and kill later, so of course it's not going to be 100% perfect when not all offending questions get deleted but I think the chatfilter yes/no definition is pretty clear cut. The chatfilter posts often have a question that is vague and the answers are set up as everyone's opinion not working towards any common goal, just expressing opinions for the sake of the question asker's curiosity. There is never a correct answer for the question.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:27 PM on May 2, 2006

it was really not all that bad

Didja hear that, Matt? It was really not all that bad, man! W.T.F???????
posted by scarabic at 9:29 PM on May 2, 2006

There is never a correct answer for the question.

I know, man, I know, and I sympathize. Like I said, I'm not complaining. Some of the arguably chatteriffic threads that you've let live and highlighted later have actually been some of the best stuff that AskMe has had to offer. Double-edged sword and all that.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:31 PM on May 2, 2006

Chatfilter is easy to identify, because the AskMe questions that get deleted for chatfilter are the ones that aren't asking for assistance from an expert. That's what makes it discussion instead of help-seeking -- every single user could answer it if they wanted and every answer would be correct.

AskMe is a way to tap into expertise: people who know about computers or welding or auto repair or salvaging relationships or law or stopping snoring (and, by extension, people who are good at learning about things quickly enough to answer). "Expert" is pretty loose, mind you, but the answerer is expected to know more than the asker.

Jess and Matt's "I'll go first" metric is just a measurement of that. When the person asking the question has the expertise to answer, it's chatfilter for sure.
posted by mendel at 9:37 PM on May 2, 2006

Thanks for the response guys. I wish metachat was incorporated into the metafilter family. I really didn't know about it and I'm here at metafilter sort of frequently. And, lets face it, both it and sportsfilter have stylistic flaws versus metafilter.

Ok -- I was sort of hoping for sidebar status there. It really had people thinking and it was sociologically and psychologically fascinating to see how that thread was shaping up too.

I'll get sidebarred someday Matt. I really hope to do so.

Maybe if I ever get famous........
posted by skepticallypleased at 9:39 PM on May 2, 2006

skepticallypleased,

Metafilter is a great place. But one of the rules about sharing what you think is great on the web is that you may not link to your own stuff, no matter how cool it is.

ask.metafiler has some rules too. The major one is that the questions are in search of a definitive answer, not a subjective answer.

Some people got fed up, and started metachat. It has different rules, and a smaller group than metafilter.

And look, it's not you. It's just the way that this site and this community evolved.
posted by filmgeek at 9:42 PM on May 2, 2006

Listen, TWO -- what do you wish you knew when you knew back then threads were posted to 60+ comments. And, they didn't really mention chattiness.

I try to post by metafilter's guidelines so I didn't want to post a question in a oblivious fashion. Even when I post FP style I try to add in links no one ever reads because that's what the guidelines state. I referenced the chattiness to let you know that I understood the rules but I'd thought you let this one fly....it was not so.
posted by skepticallypleased at 9:44 PM on May 2, 2006

Perhaps the "Don't be an ass" rule on the AskMe post page needs elaboration. Vanity questions and "I thought you'd let this one fly" both qualify, in my opinion.

Nothing against skepticallypleased personally -- this is just a pretty flagrant, deliberate violation of the site norms, and coming to complain about it on MeTa afterwards is the icing on the cake.
posted by BackwardsCity at 10:09 PM on May 2, 2006

On further reflection, perhaps I'm being an ass.
posted by BackwardsCity at 10:10 PM on May 2, 2006

Nah, skepticallypleased knew exactly what was wrong with that question. Posting a "why was this deleted?" here was just more attention-whoring.
posted by mediareport at 10:23 PM on May 2, 2006

That deleted thread was the most rewarding thing I've read on askme for weeks. It reminds me of what I miss from the early days of askme.
I guess I'll be reading metachat more often.
posted by Zetetics at 10:26 PM on May 2, 2006

Um, mr -- I knew the question was not "exactly" under guidelines but you can make that case for most of the stuff on askme -- I'd say about 10% of the answers have been asked before......

I was hoping to push the envelope a bit. One of the sidebars that Matt highlighted before the newbies could sign up was a long, moving askme about issues people faced as children and how the dealt with it as adults.

A beautiful thing about metafilter is that I feel that it's an extension of mostly inquisitive people who simply want to make sure their life or the world is not left unexamined. My thread served that purpose very well. Trust me, I'd rather not want the attention.....

If a metafilter formatted metachat comes from something like this talk soon enough, it will be a good thing.
posted by skepticallypleased at 11:11 PM on May 2, 2006

One more thing -- does there really need to be a "correct" answer at some point......

For instance, I went to a party of not so close people for my wife's work a couple weeks ago and I wanted to see what mefites thought about initiating conversations at such places -- namely, why does everyone ask what everybody does.... and how to avoid the empty, inane moments when meeting strangers in such situations when people have good stuff to talk about should that initial awkwardness be avoided....

I did a search before asking the question to mefi and got an older thread -- and the comments, opinions, and links were diverse and it was hard to argue whether a correct answer really existed. In fact, the pleasure was seeing the debate over what people "should" do.

It was vitnage mefilter and its why I think this site is very special.....but, you could easily make the argument that it violated the rules.

Its just a couple kilobytes on a huge, huge net people. Be careful of this path, a teeny bit of wavering from rigid norms is great for a site that depends on users for its content......a teeny, tiny bit mind you.
posted by skepticallypleased at 11:18 PM on May 2, 2006

Be careful of this path, a teeny bit of wavering from rigid norms

I am usually puzzled as to how Matt gets grief for not behaving more consistently and also for having "rigid norms", usually in the same thread.

namely, why does everyone ask what everybody does.... and how to avoid the empty, inane moments when meeting strangers in such situations when people have good stuff to talk about should that initial awkwardness be avoided....

That sounds like a fine question to me. There may be no one correct answer but certainly some answers will be better than others. And you can define an "expert" as someone who is more skilled at social situations than you. This is a classic call for advice and expertise not a general "what is your favorite color/defining experience/one regret/one wish" type poll question.

If you really cant tell the difference between those two questions...well, thats part of the problem here.
posted by vacapinta at 11:40 PM on May 2, 2006

"Some people got fed up, and started metachat."

Hmm. That implies the relationship with mefi is antagonistic in some sense and I don't think that's true at all. I can't speak for dodgy or taz, but my impression is that metachat exists because metafilter is great the way it is and metachat exists to be a different sort of thing for the mefi community that you don't get at mefi. Metachat's worked out great, it provides something metafilter doesn't and rounds out the whole mefi experience nicely. It's not intended to be a replacement, or an alternative, or a rebuke—it's complementary. That's how I see it, anyway.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:21 AM on May 3, 2006

What is metachat (where they told me to post it)?

Go to google. Type "metachat". Press "I'm feeling lucky."

It's also the first hit on both yahoo and MSN for a search of "metachat".

Was that really that hard to figure out?
posted by Rhomboid at 1:24 AM on May 3, 2006

Even when I post FP style I try to add in links no one ever reads because that's what the guidelines state.

How depressing.
posted by jack_mo at 3:19 AM on May 3, 2006

Was that really that hard to figure out?

No. Like someone else said, this is just attention-whoring.
posted by blag at 3:36 AM on May 3, 2006

Trust me, I'd rather not want the attention.....

Right, but you approach your posts "hoping for sidebar status." Uh-huh.
posted by mediareport at 4:47 AM on May 3, 2006

EB is right about metachat; in fact, the first idea for it happened back when mefi was down a lot and those of us in Europe often wouldn't have access to the site for extended periods during U.S. late night hours - so it was first conceived as just a place where people could go and chat if the site was down, and then just as a place for the sorts of conversational things that don't really belong here, or for posts or questions that might not work that well on Mefi or AskMe.

The point of Metachat was never to express some implied criticism of Mefi, and by no means was it ever meant as competing site. It's purpose is entirely different, and is really meant just to be somewhere members can chat informally.
posted by taz at 5:19 AM on May 3, 2006

does there really need to be a "correct" answer at some point......

There is a difference between a correct answer and a best answer. In your example, someone could say "oh just be the guy with the lampshade on his head, people love that" and someone else could say "ask people about their pets, people love to talk about their pets" One of those answers is better than the other, depending on what your preferred outcome is. That question also had a problem to be solved "How can I break the ice at parties?" Chatfilter type questions have a few things in common:

- everyone's answer is equally valid
- "what's your favorite X?" is a classic chatfilter example. Maybe there is a reason you want to know? Super, just put it in your question.
- often the person asking the question seems to want to give their own answer before getting the answers of others [the "I'll go first" thing] which seems to indicate that it's just a thread for talking. There's nothing wrong with chatty threads in any absolute sense, it's just not what Ask MetaFilter is for. If you can authoritatively answer your own question, it's probably not right for AskMe.
- there is no problem to be solved. Even the zombie question had a problem to be solved.
- and, most importantly, people have flagged it. As much as it may seem like deletion is dependent on breakfast, we notice things in the flag queue

AskMe's guidelines have gelled over time, so things that may have been more sidebar-worthy historically now fall outside of the rough outline of what AskMetafilter is for. Back when that part of the site wasn't so popular, it was easier to not worry about an extra question or two that didn't fit in. Now, with new questions going off the front page of AskMe within the same day often, it's more important to be a bit more tight with the guidelines so the resource can be shared more equally. MetaChat is a really great place to go talk to other folks about more open-ended questions.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:38 AM on May 3, 2006 [1 favorite]

I thought metachat would be a link here that I didn't see.

As for the attention, there is the good type and the bad type. This type is bad. Sidebar status is the good type. You cynics really should be more skeptical....yes, I'll be here all week. :)

And, in what world does anyone really want attention of this sort?! I mean, what would I do with it? Get girls? Cash in? Take glee in my self-importance that mreport and blag read something I wrote?

Trust me, I'd rather never ever have posted to metatalk.

Also, jessamyn -- if questions are going off the front page too fast could a cap on questions per day be proposed? (I'm sure that question has been asked before on metatalk though so please lay off).

And to stress this point further. I can't see how my thread can't have been as educative as the party one (or even the "what did you wish you knew when you 21 threads").

It all seems rather arbitrary.
posted by skepticallypleased at 5:55 AM on May 3, 2006

I was sort of hoping for sidebar status there.


That's the most depressing thing.
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:56 AM on May 3, 2006

Was that really that hard to figure out?

Exactly, and he doesn't know how to create links either. And the whole "I wanna be a sidebar star" is repugnant. No offense, skepticallypleased, but you need to rethink your approach here. Spend less energy defending yourself and more trying to figure out where you went wrong and how to avoid MetaTalk in future. And learn how to use Google, for chrissake.
posted by languagehat at 6:15 AM on May 3, 2006

Here's my criteria for an AskMe post: it must either be a question with a definite answer or a question asking for information that will be put to some practical use.

For example:

Acceptable: "Why is the sky blue?" (no apparent practical use but has a definite answer)

Acceptable: "I'm 21, I have a degree in X, and I have these interests in Y and Z. What kind of career options could I pursue that would fit both my education and my interests?" (open-ended question, but it meets practical use criteria)

Not acceptable: "What did you want to be when you were 21?" (open ended question of no apparent practical use)

I find it's really not hard to give a open-ended question the focus and purpose it needs to pass the practical use criteria — just say how you plan to use the information.

The idea is that AskMe is supposed to be a place where we can go to help each other and get help, not blather on about ourselves. Matt does occasionally leave a fascinating chatfilter thread or two, but they are and should remain exceptions.

And then we always have MetaChat for things that don't belong on AskMe. I find it's great place to go for questions that are too minor to require the big gun that is AskMe, and also a place to kvetch about my latest disastrous and bizarre foray into amore;-).

So... given all this, I don't understand why there is abuse of AskMe. But I suppose given the constanly growing membership, there will always be people who just haven't figured out all of the above.
posted by orange swan at 6:24 AM on May 3, 2006

except for threads like this, where matt and jess and others actually discuss it, there is no place where it is laid out--of course there'll be questions that don't fit the criteria. And stav is right--some completely chatty questions have been highlighted on the sidebar--sending a totally mixed message. Those sidebarred threads speak far more loudly and permanently than comments inside meta threads.
posted by amberglow at 6:33 AM on May 3, 2006

I added a description of chatfilter to the faq. Seriously though, how many chatfilter questions have made it to the sidebar? Two or three, ever? I just skimmed the last 300 sidebar posts, going back to last February and I see maybe one that could qualify as chatfilter.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:56 AM on May 3, 2006

I was thinking about posting something similar to MeTa - what constitutes chatfilter?

Among the more "chatfilter" posts I've seen on AskMefi that have turned out to be the Golden Posts (and the reason I signed up):

* Significant life experiences
* Significant first books
* What did you wish you knew when you were 18
* What did you wish you knew when you were 21
* Advice for a college student

Why were those allowed and this cut off? They fall into the same vein for me - share your life stories.
posted by divabat at 8:06 AM on May 3, 2006

Occasionally a chatty question slips through. And it turns out to be really good. But we at least try to keep Ask Metafilter more about getting knowledge and solutions to problems rather than reminiscing about the past. If AskMe becomes too chatty, it will lose its usefulness.
posted by Roger Dodger at 8:35 AM on May 3, 2006

And, lets face it, both it and sportsfilter have stylistic flaws versus metafilter.

It doesn't look like you have any understanding of metafilter, much less other sites, and that's the flaw. Hell, I'm not sure you have much of a grasp on the internet itself.

Seriously though, how many chatfilter questions have made it to the sidebar? Two or three, ever?

People never let facts get in their way of trying to make a point.

Occasionally a chatty question slips through. And it turns out to be really good. But we at least try to keep Ask Metafilter more about getting knowledge and solutions to problems rather than reminiscing about the past. If AskMe becomes too chatty, it will lose its usefulness.

Stavros and amberglow should be required to read this over and over and over...
posted by justgary at 9:08 AM on May 3, 2006

* Significant life experiences
* Significant first books
* What did you wish you knew when you were 18
* What did you wish you knew when you were 21
* Advice for a college student

Why were those allowed and this cut off? They fall into the same vein for me - share your life stories.

A lot of those that come to mind stated some practical use. I recall some of the chatty "what I wish I knew when I was x old" questions were from teens setting off for college, or graduating college and facing into the chasm of life, looking for life advice from older members. The significant life experiences one was for a father with a 2 year old, wondering what significant memories he was forming at that age.

orange swan's post above is a great explanation -- a lot of these chatty questions include some practical use for the information.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:37 AM on May 3, 2006

Just in case anyone is interested, here's the Significant Life Experiences thread. I had a bit of a tough time finding it, oddly enough.
posted by Iamtherealme at 12:38 PM on May 3, 2006

"I see maybe one that could qualify as chatfilter."

Was it the zombie one? Granted, technically there was a lot of 'SCIENCE' involved there, but it was a total rule-flaunter.
posted by graventy at 12:48 PM on May 3, 2006

There should be a "best of sidebar-sidebar." I nominate Porn in the Woods as the perfect example of a question that both had an answer, was totally chatfilter, and was a great question.
posted by jasper411 at 1:33 PM on May 3, 2006

Um, mr -- I knew the question was not "exactly" under guidelines but you can make that case for most of the stuff on askme -- I'd say about 10% of the answers have been asked before......

"Most" = 10% repeat questions? Praytell, how to the other alleged 41% of the guideline-defying AskMes defy the guidelines?
And giving you 51% as a definition of "most" is generous.
posted by desuetude at 4:41 PM on May 3, 2006

sorry deseutude -- it was late. Please change most to a not insignificant minority.


And, you meant "to" and I think 49%. Yikes.
posted by skepticallypleased at 5:55 PM on May 3, 2006

I think you and I meant do. Yikes yikes.

"Most" of the stuff on AskMe equaling a hypothetical 51%. Minus 10% of said majority which are not under guidelines because they've been asked before. Leaving 41% of the "most" of AskMe that are not under guidelines for unspecified reasons...aw, I'm belaboring my already weak snark. Forget it.

Er, to sum up: chill with the exaggering, try to absorb the very good constructive criticism in this thread, and welcome.
posted by desuetude at 8:42 PM on May 3, 2006

Stavros and amberglow should be required to read this over and over and over...

No, you should read my actual comments, chuckles. What part of 'I'm not complaining' don't you understand?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:03 PM on May 3, 2006

Question: Does a complaint become a non-complaint if you put "I'm not complaining" after it? BTW, I'm not questioning stavros.
posted by found missing at 7:04 AM on May 4, 2006

This is the sound of one hand fapping.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:15 AM on May 4, 2006

I'm not complaining, and by that, I mean I'm whining - but I forgot to make a MeTa post about my FPP that was deleted. I forget why it was deleted, 'cause it was a while back, so could Matt and Jessamyn drop whatever they're doing and justify the deletion?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:07 AM on May 4, 2006