Divorce too often recommended as solution

September 9, 2006 7:21 PM

This sort of thing irks the hell out of me. When I asked for advice on getting my picky wife to eat well while pregnant, I also got advice like this ("my question in your circumstances would be about divorce lawyers"). I've seen a number of others like this too over the last year(s), advocating divorce or 'dumping' for any sort of relationship issue. Can we get a smackdown on these idiotic AskMe answers?
posted by Kickstart70 to etiquette/policy at 7:21 PM (62 comments total)

It comes off to me as a badly-worded attempt to say "I'm not sure I could be with a girl without a varied diet," especially since the rest of the answer does try to help you. Unfortunate and unnecessary, but IMHO this isn't torches-and-pitchforks-worthy.
posted by brett at 7:30 PM on September 9, 2006

agreed ... eating habits and compulsive following of interests are hardly good reasons to suggest divorce ...

but then, we have to remember that for every marriage that breaks up, those people in their mother's basements, knee deep in used kleenex, will feel less like losers
posted by pyramid termite at 7:41 PM on September 9, 2006

yeah, it does seem crazy to divorce your pregnant wife over her diet. I think a lot of the DumpMe advice is good though, it's hard for people to think clearly about what they should do in a bad relationship.
posted by delmoi at 7:41 PM on September 9, 2006

The now deleted comment, for the record, was "dump him." Usually if people can't even be bothered to add any information, and the question is not asking something pretty basic like "should I dump this guy or not" those types of answers get flagged and removed.
posted by jessamyn at 7:50 PM on September 9, 2006

There really ought to be a timeout penalty of at least a day, and probably a week, for posting a joke/insult answer in AskMe.

Seriously. What's the disincentive, otherwise?

(Answers that start with a joke but then get at least a little thoughtful get a pass, I guess.)
posted by mediareport at 7:56 PM on September 9, 2006

That's why whenever I want to make a jokey comment I make up something that sounds like real advice to write with it so it won't get deleted.
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:02 PM on September 9, 2006

Not sure if this is the place to mouth off on my own pet theory, but I've noticed that same phenomenon. I'm guessing it stems from two things (assuming people are giving advice in good faith) --

Dan Savage (sex advice columnist for the Onion and the Stranger) often advocates dumping as a response to some intractable sexual incompatibility, or as a response to a partner's assholishness. It's a quick and easy answer, and maybe some people are adopting that as their go-to advice for all relationship problems?

I'm guessing that a lot of MeFi users (not most, but still some sizeable number) are on the younger side of 28, say, and haven't been in relationships that have lasted for 10 years. Different issues arise in a very long term relationship than arise during a 2-year one. (Though obviously a lot of similar issues arise too!) The investment in a 10 year relationship is of a different scale than the investment in a 2 year one. There are problems in a 2-year rel. where it might be reasonable to suggest breaking up as a response, where if those problems arise in a 10-year rel., breaking up would be a huge over-reaction. I'm guessing some people are giving advice from the reference frame of much shorter, less invested-in relationships?
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:05 PM on September 9, 2006 [1 favorite]

Well, if you don't like it, you could just dump MeFi.

I keed...
posted by nevercalm at 8:08 PM on September 9, 2006

There really ought to be a timeout penalty of at least a day, and probably a week

If people are on a jokey comment roll, that's exactly what happens. If it's one overterse comment, usually not.
posted by jessamyn at 8:09 PM on September 9, 2006

What's the disincentive, otherwise?

as a self-policing website, I believe the disincentive is public shaming, possibly ostricization, and almost certainly future reference to the infraction as a form of ad hominem.

so who was the offending party, again?
posted by carsonb at 8:12 PM on September 9, 2006

er, as MetaFilter is a self-policing website...
posted by carsonb at 8:13 PM on September 9, 2006

i'd rather we had a smackdown on the "what present should i buy my boyfriend/cousin/nephew/advisor/person-i-
have-actually-met-and-might-know-something-about-but-you-
dozens-of-strangers-are-infinitely-more-likely-to-know-what-
he's-like-as-a-gift" questions. oh, and the mixed tapes questions. for the love of god, can we stop with those?
posted by crush-onastick at 8:15 PM on September 9, 2006

fourcheesemac, I believe was his name.

Just for the record...the response to me DID get helpful after the really dumb joke, so I didn't flag it and I assume others didn't either. It wasn't exactly appreciated, but I wouldn't advocate the removal.

This is unlike the one that jess removed just now. It was pure assholeishness. A few google searches find other similar ones on this site, but I also don't advocate retroactive cleanup. Hopefully bringing attention to this now will do a good job of cutting down on these in future.
posted by Kickstart70 at 8:15 PM on September 9, 2006

for the love of god, can we stop with those?

Only if we can get a moratorium on NYC thingstodo/restaurants/tattoos/whatever questions. I never had any opinion on New York until I started reading this site, and now I dislike it without ever going there.
posted by Kickstart70 at 8:18 PM on September 9, 2006 [1 favorite]

Often times, I make a jokey comment, and then, having gotten it out of my system, I will hit the backspace key until it has disappeared into the nothingness that is backspaced words.

See? You couldn't even tell there was a really shitty, snarky-assed comment here, because I deleted the little fucker.
posted by disclaimer at 8:29 PM on September 9, 2006 [1 favorite]

oh, and the mixed tapes questions. for the love of god, can we stop with those?

actually we were working on some guidelines this weekend and phasing out mix tape and "name my X" questions were discussed. You can check this page for more, let me know what you think. I don't think anything else is new.
posted by jessamyn at 8:39 PM on September 9, 2006

I kinda like "name my X" questions, actually. Usually the suggestions are far more interesting that the question, and often the unchosen suggestions are better than the chosen.
posted by Kickstart70 at 8:57 PM on September 9, 2006

If you ask a sufficiently large number of random people the same question, you're likely to get every possible answer. Some of these will be idiotic, some will contain profound wisdom. Most will be somewhere in the middle. I think that's the wonderful thing about MeFi. The user that makes a joke comment in one thread, may make the most utterly beautiful reply in the next, because we all have different wisdom and personalities to share. Stupid answers are still answers, and that's the only thing you can be guaranteed to get: an answer. To some people "dump him" WILL BE the best answer (not to most people, but to some).

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to watch Fraggle Rock.
posted by blue_beetle at 9:09 PM on September 9, 2006

As far as the "name my X" goes, the "Sandra Day O'Clobber" thread still makes me chuckle.
posted by null terminated at 9:59 PM on September 9, 2006

You know what would be an awesome pony? A combination of Google maps and all of the location based questions that have been asked in ask.me.
That combined with some sort of limit on the questions that could be asked about the places that have already been covered.

This would make my day.
posted by oddman at 10:12 PM on September 9, 2006

Uh, not that anyone cares a whole lot, but even though I think "help me name my X" questions are about the stupidest thing I've ever seen at MeFi Inc., I still strongly object to any effort to phase out certain kinds of questions. There's not a single kind of question, including NYC-to-do and whatever else gets some folks' undies twisted, that appears so often it affects the usability of the site. I don't think the same is true of tossed-off insulting answers, which are a direct interference with AskMe's usability and should be culled and punished mercilessly.

How many mixtape and "name my X" questions do we see in a month, anyway?
posted by mediareport at 10:33 PM on September 9, 2006

I also got advice like this ("my question in your circumstances would be about divorce lawyers")

You should recalibrate your humor and sympathy detectors.

I mean, I am not phearlez, nor do I play him, her, it, or them on TV.

But there is no way on God's green earth that you were advised to get a divorce. Nor was it even a joke. That was what we call an "expression of sympathy," noting that your situation is tough before giving the actual advice that followed. Phrased in a way that was at least attempting humor, but that doesn't make it just some lame joke.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:05 PM on September 9, 2006

Almost anytime relationship problems are discussed, there is a "you go girl" or "drop the bitch" mentality to some advice. There are those who see relationships as a thing to "win", where the most important thing is to assert yourself and prove that you don't take any shit. Since they don't get that relationships are projects that require effort and patence, their rarely have anything to offer.

Since it is so common an attitude, it's proably unavoidable. Hopefully those sorts of answers will be more like second post in question- which at least tried to offer help, rather than the first. Timeouts for baseless "dump him", might help to force people to think their answers out a little more.
posted by spaltavian at 11:38 PM on September 9, 2006

"I still strongly object to any effort to phase out certain kinds of questions. There's not a single kind of question, including NYC-to-do and whatever else gets some folks' undies twisted, that appears so often it affects the usability of the site."

I second this. I've said it before, but I'll repeat: what makes AskMe so great is the variety of questions.
posted by litlnemo at 2:16 AM on September 10, 2006

I don't see the actual answer referenced in this MeTa as being so bad. I mean, sure, it's horrible advice, but it doesn't break the guidelines, because it is followed up by stuff that answers the asker's question. The deleted one, I didn't see, so I dunno how good/bad it was (though from everyone's answers, it seems like it was pretty bad).

In general, though, I find that AskMe has been getting a lot of non-answers lately. Too much, I would guess, for Jessamatt to keep up with. I'm wondering if it would be possible to get another moderator, charged with just cleaning up the absolutely egregious stuff. Having another full Mattamyn class moderator would just result in more bitching about egregious moderation and the like, but someone tasked only with deleting total non-answers (like "Yeah, I was wondering that myself", or "That sounds gross", or "I don't know, I've never tried to do that") would probably be of some benefit.
posted by Bugbread at 4:52 AM on September 10, 2006

I second this. I've said it before, but I'll repeat: what makes AskMe so great is the variety of questions.

Thirded. As ROU says, those sorts of questions are not adversely affecting the other questions or the site in general. There's already a question limit. If someone wants to save up their question and spend it on a mix-tape or a kitten name, fine by me.

I don't find them any more annoying than the "I'm sad. Make me feel better" relationship-style questions.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:30 AM on September 10, 2006

What ROU_Xenophobe said--it was a helpful answer that began with a harmless joke, which you took amiss.
posted by LarryC at 5:55 AM on September 10, 2006

we were working on some guidelines this weekend

Jess, maybe add a little stress to the part about checking for previous questions? There seem to be a helluva lot of repeat questions.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:11 AM on September 10, 2006

Man, abandon your pregnant wife and baby to be because you disagree about her eating habits? People like that should just live alone for the rest of their lives so as to minimize their impact on other people.
posted by caddis at 6:38 AM on September 10, 2006

(Something else I'd mention on the 'phasing out questions' tip: While I generally favor a decrease in mix tape questions just so I don't have to see people recommend Keane for anyone, I've noticed of late that the volume of questions is nowhere near overwhelming. I check about once a day, and it takes me about five minutes to scroll through them, which is perfect for office time wasting, which is how I use MeFi. So, for all the talk of increasing waiting periods or eliminating questions, I don't think the solutions are warrented by the situation.)
posted by klangklangston at 7:18 AM on September 10, 2006

It really is amazing how often people recommend dumping and divorce as a solution to almost any relationship problem. It's one of the most repulsive aspects of the green. But, after poking about, it seems to be more of a larger American phenomenom. Anyways, there's not much you can do about bad advice on the Green except explain why it's bad and put forth a more sensible solution.
posted by nixerman at 7:22 AM on September 10, 2006

There are times when I wish for a "did you even read the entire question?" or "that isn't the question I asked" flag.
posted by QIbHom at 7:33 AM on September 10, 2006

it seems to be more of a larger American phenomenom.

Naturally. No one ends their relationships anywhere else in the world. The rest of the world is happily married, or at least williing to go into counseling.
posted by scody at 7:37 AM on September 10, 2006

There are times when I wish for a "did you even read the entire question?" or "that isn't the question I asked" flag.

I think AskMe-specific flag options would be a great way to distribute the task of moderation, both by helping to identify problems and by providing a quick "a lot of people flagged it as X" explanation for disputes.
posted by scottreynen at 7:41 AM on September 10, 2006

The rest of the world is happily married, or at least williing to go into counseling..

The rest of the world isn't big on counseling either. It's a largely proto-yuppie thing. Most people resolve their marriage problems through violence.
posted by nixerman at 7:44 AM on September 10, 2006

it does seem crazy to divorce your pregnant wife over her diet

Agreed, though diet is an important thing and can create stress when it's out of whack between two people.

The divorce lawyers comment was an asinine, unnecessary little side comment to the rest of the answer. It wasn't nice or helpful, but at least it wasn't the whole answer.
posted by scarabic at 7:46 AM on September 10, 2006

jessamyn, how about some answering guidelines (or suggestions) in the AskMe page you posted? all the guidelines seem to be standards for posting questions, and there seem to be some non-written rules for answering.

I know they may seem obvious for most, but I'm new around here and I get a sense that, for instance, jokes are ok in the blue, but not in the green and things like that. Perhaps stating (even if informally) the difference in tone expected would be helpful.
posted by micayetoca at 7:49 AM on September 10, 2006

jessamyn, how about some answering guidelines (or suggestions) in the AskMe page you posted? all the guidelines seem to be standards for posting questions, and there seem to be some non-written rules for answering.

That's a good idea, though maybe better suited for the FAQ, since the only place the guidelines are linked is on the "ask a question" page. As it is, one of us will see pretty much anything that gets flagged in AskMe, but since there has been a preponderance of jokey/flip answers that do address the question, it's been harder to draw a bright line.
posted by jessamyn at 7:51 AM on September 10, 2006

caddis : "People like that should just live alone for the rest of their lives so as to minimize their impact on other people."

Well, if they do in their own lives what they advise others to do, they probably do live alone.

scody : "The rest of the world is happily married, or at least willing to go into counseling."

Yes, of course, counseling. I had forgotten the other giant pillar of AskMe. When in doubt, you need counseling!

(The best AskMe answer I ever saw, in the sense of "unbelievable, and therefore good", was when someone in a good relationship asked a question, and someone answered, absolutely seriously, that they should get counseling, because if they were happy, then they probably had some sort of hidden psychological problems that they were suppressing. So if you're unhappy, that's a clear sign you need to go to counseling, and if you aren't unhappy, that's a clear sign you need to go to counseling)
posted by Bugbread at 8:23 AM on September 10, 2006 [2 favorites]

You're posting a question to the world. Of course you're going to get some idiotic or asshole answers. Ignore them and move on.

The world would be a lot better if we could just ignore the assholes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:46 AM on September 10, 2006

When in doubt, you need counseling!

And lots and lots of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy! *Then* dump him/her.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:46 AM on September 10, 2006

actually we were working on some guidelines this weekend and phasing out mix tape and "name my X" questions were discussed. You can check this page for more, let me know what you think. I don't think anything else is new.

Those new guidelines make we want to ask "name my mix CD" questions until my account is banned.
posted by timeistight at 9:05 AM on September 10, 2006

Speaking of useless answers:

"That is a superb question... Sadly I don't have a superb answer."

Very helpful.
posted by Bugbread at 9:18 AM on September 10, 2006

As it is, one of us will see pretty much anything that gets flagged in AskMe, but since there has been a preponderance of jokey/flip answers that do address the question, it's been harder to draw a bright line.

Yeah, I'd like to see more discretion given to the community in that hazy area. Yesterday I saw one such jokey-but-useful comment deleted from this thread about a joke, and the deleted comment was made by riotgrrl69, who asked the question. I'd like to think we can tolerate a little fun in AskMe without compromising the usefulness.
posted by scottreynen at 10:04 AM on September 10, 2006

Let me see here.:

You had a problem that you couldn't solve on your own.

You asked for advice in a public forum with thousands of participants.

You got some advice that you didn't like.

So now you want a mefi "smackdown" for advice you consider "idiotic"? And how do you propose that this will work? Will Are you willing to take on the job of policing every answer to determine which are "idiotic" (or unhelpful or snarky or useless)? Or do you assume that Matt and Jessamyn will do so?
posted by googly at 6:13 PM on September 10, 2006

More questions that should be banned:
* I'm out of shape, what exercises should I do? What diet do you recommend?
* I want to travel. Where should I go?
* BookFilter: My favorite authors are Michael Chabon and Margaret Atwood. What books should I read next?
* My friend and I were arguing about <political issue> today. Help me win the argument!
* My best friend's boyfriend is a jerk. How do I tell her this?
* I have a crush on this girl, but she doesn't know. What do you think, should I go for it?
posted by Khalad at 6:47 PM on September 10, 2006

Speaking of useless answers:

Here's a beauty:

[I don't know what the software does, but here's a guess].
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:56 PM on September 10, 2006

More questions that should be banned:
*I'm a writer, and I need help naming my characters.
*I'm a writer, and I need help giving my characters personalities. If you were writing my book, how would you write x?
*I'm a student, and I need a topic for my thesis. Any ideas?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:59 PM on September 10, 2006 [1 favorite]

I don't like banning questions (I've actually enjoyed many "name my foo" threads). Not receiving any answers should clue folks in. Why wait for Matt and Jessamyn to do everything? They aren't my mother.
posted by QIbHom at 8:27 PM on September 10, 2006

[I don't know what the software does, but here's a guess].

You should see him in threads about sex. Yeesh.
posted by mediareport at 10:25 PM on September 10, 2006

jessamyn, how about some answering guidelines (or suggestions) in the AskMe page you posted?

Mildly exasperating are the 'agree with abc' or 'what xyz said' non-answers taking up space, adding nothing new, and requiring, if one feels compelled to attempt to extract any value at all, to retrace steps to see who exactly said what.

How about a couple words about RTFT (read the fine thread) before answering with the same duplicate answer, ie. an answer offered already more than once, additionally over and over, as a repeated and unecessary redundancy.
posted by scheptech at 10:27 PM on September 10, 2006

There are times when I wish for a "did you even read the entire question?" or "that isn't the question I asked" flag.

Either or both of these would be immensely helpful.
posted by jjg at 12:22 AM on September 11, 2006

I think LobsterMitten may be onto something with the idea that people who have been in long (10 yrs +) relationships are the minority of answer-givers on MeFi. More importantly, IMO, the saying 'dump him' requires a lot less time & energy investment on the part of the answer-giver than does a more thoughtful/substantial response. It's easy to say 'break it off', so I'd speculate that when a potential answer-giver thinks "dump him" they're more likely to fire off a few lines to that effect than they are to sit down and write a longer more thoughtful answer. While this may not apply to a particular MeFite, I strongly suspect that it's true in the aggregate.
posted by raedyn at 8:10 AM on September 11, 2006

googly nails it. Ask a question that makes you sound like a control freak -- but a control freak who loves his wife and wants to help her -- the average smart, kind-hearted AskMe reader will give you snark* up front , and then some genuinely useful advice. The snark is simply a defense mechanism, just in case you actually ARE a douche-y control freak**. Complain about the snark -- ignoring the well-meaning advice that makes up 95% of the post -- and you just confirm the reason the snark was there in the first place.

AskMe is a democratic, conversational thing, which means you'll get the good with the bad and the ugly, and the off-the-cuff with the well-reasoned. If you don't like it, don't use it. (And if you want it, ahem, "filtered" for you, you can pay a pro $90 an hour.)

*btw, the answer in question wasn't even real snark. "My question in your circumstances..." means the poster was referring to HIMSELF, for chrissake, and complimenting the poster for his patience.

**duly noted that the poster's wife is pregnant, and he's stressed out. Been there, done that.
posted by turducken at 11:39 AM on September 11, 2006

Mildly exasperating are the 'agree with abc' or 'what xyz said' non-answers taking up space, adding nothing new, and requiring, if one feels compelled to attempt to extract any value at all, to retrace steps to see who exactly said what.

I think it depends on the question, but there is value in these: You get to see that multiple people are pushing you in the same direction. It can keep the thread from seeming like a bunch of random suggestions, and more like directed advice.

Obviously, this is not the case in the "What book is this?" - type threads. But I don't know if that's a problem in those.
posted by occhiblu at 11:41 AM on September 11, 2006

and more like directed advice.

Well, if we were doing a statistically valid poll then of course, but the random factor isn't lessened but 2 or 3 people saying me too, if anything the advice is distorted by that, by creating a unreliable impression of consensus, again on a near-random basis which you can't judge because nothing else is said.

I'm all for me too's as long something new is added along with them. You know, something like 'me too and here's another reason why' or 'yup, and heres additional evidence' or 'agree and here's another angle on it'.

Another thing I think I'm noticing btw, is that answers chosen as 'best' in the relationship/personal advice areas are often those that seem to tell the questioner what they want to hear. Example:

Question: "I travel a lot for work and have a wife on the East Coast and a wife on the West Coast and it's stressing me out. Should I continue drinking heavily to ease my anxiety about getting caught?"

Answer: "Tell both wives and go to rehab"-> ignored.

Answer "You might want to cut back a little during the week to avoid any job performance problems, and meanwhile don't get all guilted up dude, you're just a regular guy doing the best you can and good on 'ya for having enough love to share with two women." -> marked best.

I have no idea what to do about that other than request answerers to offer their real thought-through opinions rather than the easy thing, just enabling sympathy.
posted by scheptech at 12:56 PM on September 11, 2006

Well, if we were doing a statistically valid poll then of course, but the random factor isn't lessened but 2 or 3 people saying me too, if anything the advice is distorted by that, by creating a unreliable impression of consensus, again on a near-random basis which you can't judge because nothing else is said.

Yeah, but it's not a poll, it's a conversation. Having other people validate someone's point is a useful social clue that the point is worthy of actual consideration. It's actually a way to work against what you're claiming is the other problem, of posters ignoring good advice.
posted by occhiblu at 1:26 PM on September 11, 2006

It's also a way of encouraging people who disagree with a point being seconded to add their own opinion. In many cases I won't respond to disagree with one person, but if I see a pattern of what I think of as bad advice showing up, I'm more likely to offer my contrasting view.
posted by occhiblu at 1:28 PM on September 11, 2006

What occhiblu said.
posted by languagehat at 1:59 PM on September 11, 2006

It's also a way of encouraging people who disagree with a point being seconded to add their own opinion

Sure, fair enough if that's what happens - but that's a short step away from triggering a competitive series of information-free posts containing nothing but votes one way or the other absent of further illumination, noise basically. Or maybe I'm thinking more of the blue page... hmm.
posted by scheptech at 2:05 PM on September 11, 2006

heh languagehat - what part - argh... now I gotto go ctl-f for occhiblu...

The thing is carsonb nails it and really, what bugbread said about caddis said. Of course scarabics response to delmoi definitely has merit. Oh, and mediareport, you're reading my mind. However no one's responded adquately to raedyns reponse to lobstermittens observation. On the other hand I agree with turduckens 'nailing it' agreement.

Ah, also for the banned questions list: farmed out market research tasks. Example:

"For all you males, married, aged 25 to 35 out there. Help save my marriage. Tell me just for example, how often you buy flowers for your wife and do you prefer ordering online, over the phone, or in person?"
posted by scheptech at 2:58 PM on September 11, 2006

Hey check it out. Yet another anonymous "why does it hurt when I have sex."

Would I get banned if I asked: "why does it hurt when I don't have sex?"
posted by CunningLinguist at 2:32 PM on September 12, 2006