Similar to a tragic wading pool accident.

June 4, 2007 1:19 PM

Not a complaint, really, because it certainly doesn't bother me—but is there any compelling reason that the sidebar item isn't “most goldfish that die drown in their own urine?” rather than including an eyebrow-raising word that will remain on the front page for a long time?
posted by Ethereal Bligh to Etiquette/Policy at 1:19 PM (90 comments total)

I had in mind how sensitive some people are to things that might get them in trouble at work. I'm personally ambivalent about whether we should censor ourselves to the lowest-common denominator. But in this case it seems like choosing the more offensive word over the lesser is gratuitous and it wouldn't harm anyone to be a little less provocative.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:24 PM on June 4, 2007

These people, who can browse recreational websites during the workday which talk about goldfish drown in urine, but who can't see "piss" on the screen without getting fired? They don't actually exist.
posted by mendel at 1:30 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

The compelling reason is that it's a direct quote.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:31 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

Oops! Sorry - I meant to make a lame joke about "taking the piss," not actually provide an answer.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:34 PM on June 4, 2007

I almost posted about this, too. Not for work reasons; it just seems a little jarring, especially for something that's going to be there every time I visit the front page for weeks, most likely.
posted by Wolfdog at 1:40 PM on June 4, 2007

If we start having MeTa callouts (or whatever you want to call them) about things that don't bother the poster, but might bother someone, we are in trouble.

Also: there are naughty words all over this site.
posted by ORthey at 1:44 PM on June 4, 2007

I had in mind how sensitive some people are to things that might get them in trouble at work.

Are there really workplaces where looking at a webpage with a couple of swearwords buried inside will get you into trouble? Some FPP posters seem to think so when handing out NSFW tags, but I have trouble believing such places exist, or that their employees dare to open MetaFilter.
posted by cillit bang at 1:44 PM on June 4, 2007

I don't mind the word, but I just don't like the mental image that created for me. I imagined my little puppy stuck in a fishbowl that slowly filled with his urine. I see him trying to get away but he's trapped in the bowl as it rises and rises until he ultimately drowns. It makes me sad for my puppy. I wish I wouldn't have seen that on the sidebar. Poor puppy.
posted by dios at 1:44 PM on June 4, 2007 [8 favorites]

I object to the term "urine soaked hellhole" when you could have said "pee-pee soaked heckhole."
posted by ALongDecember at 1:46 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

overthinking a plate of beans.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:46 PM on June 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

Then again, this place is still the #1 hit for this and this, so whatev.
posted by Wolfdog at 1:47 PM on June 4, 2007

"Piss" raises eyebrows? Really?

If being on a website that may feature the word "piss" is going to get you fired, you a) shouldn't be surfing non-work stuff at that job, and b) you should get a better job.
posted by modernnomad at 1:52 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

"Piss" raises eyebrows? Really?

Depends how hard you... oh, forget it.
posted by chrismear at 1:55 PM on June 4, 2007 [4 favorites]

I dont care about the words, I'm just puzzled why it was sidebar worthy at all. I learn all sorts of tidbits off Ask Me and I can't say that piss-drowning goldfishes even hits the top 20.
posted by vacapinta at 2:01 PM on June 4, 2007

If it was Suicide Girls drowning in piss we wouldn't have this conversation.

We'd have an orderly queue.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 2:01 PM on June 4, 2007

Just add the phrase "You can prevent it!" and a picture of a goldfish in a scout uniform beneath it and people will probably get promotions.

"Well done visiting Metafilter.com, Johnson. Goldfish safety is of utmost concern here at MegaCorp."
posted by soundofsuburbia at 2:12 PM on June 4, 2007

Count me as one who is sort of astounded that the word "piss" is any worse than the word "crap", which is used on metafilter almost daily.
posted by muddgirl at 2:15 PM on June 4, 2007

Please don't post theoretical complaints.
posted by smackfu at 2:18 PM on June 4, 2007

Would you get in trouble at work for something that's in the Bible?
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 2:18 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

“overthinking a plate of beans.”

Not really. I haven't thought about it much. Only, like Wolfdog, seeing it there every day is slightly jarring. I do think that its (relative) long-term existence on the main MetaFilter page might get MeFi added to some more filters. For no good reason, really. It is a direct quote—but it doesn't appear in the sidebar as a quote.

I'm not saying it's a big deal by any stretch of the imagination. If I didn't think that changing piss to urine was even less of a big deal, I wouldn't have mentioned it.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:20 PM on June 4, 2007

But seeing that golden shower of words on the front page is precisely what indicates that urine Metafilter in the first place.
posted by googly at 2:21 PM on June 4, 2007 [3 favorites]

Overpissing a bowl of goldfish.
posted by ORthey at 2:23 PM on June 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

For the record, "piss" IS one of the original Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television listed by George Carlin, but it was also the first of them to actually be allowed on a Prime Time broadcast network show back in the early '90s. Although, technically, what was allowed by the censors was "pissed" as a synonym for annoyed/angry. It was like what the owner of the L.A. comedy club told me: you could use the word "fuck" on stage, just not as a verb.
posted by wendell at 2:28 PM on June 4, 2007

If I didn't think that changing piss to urine was even less of a big deal, I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Huh?
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 2:28 PM on June 4, 2007

I entered a pissing contest once.

I was disqualified, because the judges said I had a non-competitive stream.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:30 PM on June 4, 2007

If this is not the strangest topic for a Metatalk post ever, it has to be close.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:31 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

"Would you get in trouble at work for something that's in the Bible?

It might not get you fired, but piss-drinking and dung-eating will surely hurt your chances for promotion. Brown-nosing on the other hand...
posted by Manjusri at 2:46 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

EB: I am aware of the subtle point you're getting at but you should know by now that Metatalk is not the place for subtle points. This is the place for sharp obvious points you can mount on the end of a hammer and beat your opponents to death with.
posted by vacapinta at 2:46 PM on June 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

I piss in your general direction.
posted by Krrrlson at 2:50 PM on June 4, 2007

Thanks, EB- I am one who would rather the word urine had been used. I appreciate that a quote should not be edited, but it need not have been a quote. *raises glass of wee to EB*
posted by fish tick at 3:01 PM on June 4, 2007

EB, your point is that you wish the sidebar was updated more often, which you could have posted and skipped the whole piss/urine thing. And that's noted. I believe whoever posted it to the sidebar did so because people asked us to point out useful askmefi stuff like that. Plus, we're all known to pick on funny subjects or make bad puns and fish dying in piss kind of fills that bill.

I believe in the past a member of the site protested the word vagina in the sidebar, but really your point is that we should update it more. We'll try.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:03 PM on June 4, 2007

My point is that the word itself isn't offensive, but "...DROWN IN THEIR OWN PISS... blah, blah, Mr. Rogers..." is an unpleasant thing to have broadcast at you repeatedly. In much the same way that "crap" and "vomit" aren't offensive, but "Did you know monkeys like to smear their own crap around?" or "AskMe: What's it like to choke on your own vomit?" would be annoying things to have in the sidebar. I mean, holy crap.
posted by Wolfdog at 3:13 PM on June 4, 2007

Protip: If you find certain words offensive, don't read them.
posted by fandango_matt at 3:15 PM

If you followed your own advice, we could have avoided one Metatalk post.
posted by vacapinta at 3:20 PM on June 4, 2007

Mostly, this whole site is pretty annoying. Robots? Fake bugs? Etymology? Chris Crocker? Holy crap!
posted by hermitosis at 3:24 PM on June 4, 2007

If we're going to edit with the sensibilities of people who get uptight about bodily functions in mind, at least suggest that it be changed to something excessively highbrow and mildly entertaining...

Like 'micturial excreta', or something.
posted by CKmtl at 3:26 PM on June 4, 2007

Oh, piss off.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:26 PM on June 4, 2007

Oops! Sorry - I meant to make a lame joke about "taking the piss," not actually provide an answer.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson

Whew, you scared me with your first answer there, Flo. For a minute I thought you were regressing to actually giving thoughtful replies, instead of the funny, smartassy replies we all know and love. You are my mentor. I am no way as good as you at smartassedness, but I try. You give me something to live for!

I'm glad you caught it. Don't let it happen again.
posted by The Deej at 3:27 PM on June 4, 2007

I'd be pretty shocked by a not-already-insane filter that would choke on an isolated incident of "piss". But I'm in the You're Kidding, Right camp on the word as it is.

Besides, the sidebar existence can't do much harm that isn't done already by casual cursing in posts to the blue. Fun number happy time:

- 231 posts on the blue have contained at least one instance of the string (or substring) "fuck", averaging (by rough eyeball measurment) about four posts a month for the last six months straight.

- "shit" clocks in at 201.

- "bitch" gets 103, "pussy" 25, and even "cunt" makes one noble appearance in 2005.

- "ass" gets 82 hits¹, "asshole" 22, "jackass" 17.²

- "porn" shows up 412 times; "lesbian" has 132 hits, "bdsm" 8, "bondage" 20, "anal" 10³, "anally" 2, even 1 hit for "golden shower".⁴

- "sex" gets an eye-popping 1555 matches.

- "piss" itself clocks a healthy 116 hits.

To be clear, those are all things which appeared in front page post text fields.

Given how many of these words come up, and how they seem to be spread out fairly well over time, I'd argue that if the concern is automated filters being tripped by the presence of a nasty word on the front page, Mefi would have been declared nasty a long time ago, and will be constantly bearing something objectionable to a stupid one-pass keyword spider.

So "piss" on the sidebar shouldn't be a problem on that front—or, better maybe, removing "piss" from the sidebar would likely be no help.

And since it's also a direct quote, I'd rather see it stay unedited when all else is essentially equal.

¹Which is likely undercounting—that's actually 82 occurances of the literal string " ass ", because failure to bound it by spaces opens up compounds like "assessment", "harass", etc. Unfortunately, that means I also lose any genuine hits for "ass" bounded by anything other than spaces.

²The tantalizing "ass-" construction yeilds another 112 hits, some of which are false-positives ("class-action", "mass-produced", "pass-time") and others of which are genuine constructions ("ass-kicking", "sweet-ass-musical", "sphincterine ass-tringent"). I personally used the phrase "ass-bumping" in a the post that led to the meficomp last year.

³Again, strictly the lone string bounded by spaces, to bar out common false positives, e.g. "analysis".

⁴Sadly, for the purposes of this discussion, there are no results for either "watersports" or "water sports".
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:32 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

“EB, your point is that you wish the sidebar was updated more often, which you could have posted and skipped the whole piss/urine thing.”

Um, not really. That the sidebar is not updated very often means that the piss that appears there is going to be more influential than the piss that appears in a post. A more often updated sidebar would eliminate that difference, but that's a strange way to solve the (arguable) problem.

Again, folks, my panties aren't bunched up about this. I'm the last person to object to profanity/obscenity/whatthefuckever because I use more of it on MeFi than most, I think. I'd prefer that people weren't sensitive about this stuff in the first place. But other people are—and it seemed so harmless and trivial to change it to something unobjectionable since it wouldn't alter the meaning whatsoever.

Anyway, cortex makes a good case that it really couldn't possibly make much of a difference. So, whatever.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:44 PM on June 4, 2007

“If you didn't have piss-poor reading comprehension skills we would have avoided the need to point out I'm not the one who made a MetaTalk post because I found something offensive.”

If you didn't have piss-poor reading skills, we would have avoided the need to point out that I didn't make a MetaTalk post because I found something offensive.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:53 PM on June 4, 2007

And at this very moment a front page post mentions tits and cocks.
posted by The Deej at 3:53 PM on June 4, 2007

what was allowed by the censors was "pissed" as a synonym for annoyed/angry.
Of course, this means an entirely different thing (drunk) in a significant part of the world - I wonder if the censors knew that?
posted by dg at 3:57 PM on June 4, 2007

I grew up in a house of swearers and I guess I don't even see "piss" as a swear which was why the quote seemed okay to put on the sidebar. I've been trying to add something there every few days or so. It'll get pushed down soon enough.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:14 PM on June 4, 2007

Astoundingly, I agree with EB, sorta. I was surprised to see it there too, and I swear like a trooper around this motherfucker. I guess it's because the sidebar is the "voice" of the site, which puts different expectations on it, compared to the many voices of the posters.

MeFi has always seemed to have quite a mellow, nice voice for the site itself, rather like Flickr has, and 'piss' isn't in that voice's register. So I was surprised to see it.

Then again, I only thought about a MeTa for 0.0002s. This is why EB has 7000 comments, and I have a tenth of that. :)
posted by bonaldi at 4:21 PM on June 4, 2007

EB, your point is that you wish the sidebar was updated more often, which you could have posted and skipped the whole piss/urine thing. .... but really your point is that we should update it more. We'll try.

I dunno about EB, but it pisses me off when someone tells me my point is something entirely different than what I wrote.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 4:27 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

the piss that appears there is going to be more influential than the piss that appears in a post
I don't mind piss, but I draw the line at influential piss.
posted by Joeforking at 4:28 PM on June 4, 2007

All these naughty words make me wish I was in Puerto Rico right now.
posted by dios at 4:28 PM on June 4, 2007

On the other hand, it's pretty fucking rare for EB to start a meta so that is what surprises me.
posted by Catfry at 4:30 PM on June 4, 2007

In repsonse to bonaldi
posted by Catfry at 4:31 PM on June 4, 2007

The acid is really starting to build in this thread. Could someone change the water please?
posted by hydrophonic at 4:49 PM on June 4, 2007

Don't drown in the brown acid.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:51 PM on June 4, 2007

I see him trying to get away but he's trapped in the bowl as it rises and rises until he ultimately drowns.

But you're not helping him. Why is that, Dios?

Describe in single words only the good things that come into your mind about... your mother.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:32 PM on June 4, 2007

I'm stunned anyone even considers 'piss' untoward nowadays.

Personally, if I can say the word in front of both my grandmother's without getting a clip round the ear, it's not swearing ('piss' only scores a disapproving titter from the jolly one, and a sharp glare from the mean one. Both would probably beat me to death with a walking stick if I said 'fuck').
posted by jack_mo at 5:38 PM on June 4, 2007

"Personally, if I can say the word in front of both my grandmother's without getting a clip round the ear..."

In front of both your grandmother's what?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:42 PM on June 4, 2007

Ears.
posted by chrismear at 6:28 PM on June 4, 2007

Mais wee. (Or I could say, with a French accent, "off course," or if I were skiing, off-piste ...)

Nevair minde.
posted by rob511 at 6:39 PM on June 4, 2007

EB, if you aren't offended by it, why not wait until someone is, and then let them whine about it on MeTa?
posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:44 PM on June 4, 2007

You still can't say piss on the radio. Personally, I feel the piss take should be replaced with the classic anal sex only sideblog. Everybody wins.
login asshole
posted by carsonb at 6:55 PM on June 4, 2007

Is there a way to navigate the sideblog archives? I found this url [http://www.metafilter.com/sideblog] and can sorta see into /sideblog/archives/foo but I can't make heads or tails of the archive /foo scheme. Am I missing something obvious or are the archives purposely hidden?
posted by carsonb at 7:09 PM on June 4, 2007

Am I the only one who finds that item sort of pointless? I mean, what else is in your average fishbowl that would pose a drowning hazard to Mr. Guppy?

Also: If piss bothers you, you should probably not listen to the podcast. Or, Paypal me $20 and I'll bleep out the cussin' with your choice of either Benny Hill sound effects or ambient bus noises.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:34 PM on June 4, 2007

eh, fuck this shit.
posted by quonsar at 7:50 PM on June 4, 2007

I mean, what else is in your average fishbowl that would pose a drowning hazard to Mr. Guppy?

You really think most people think their guppies die from drowning?
posted by smackfu at 7:54 PM on June 4, 2007

More to the point, we don't really have much in the way of NSFW filters as far as text goes, though stuff that seems gratuitously over the top may not last long.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:19 PM on June 4, 2007

I thought it was a common knowledge sort of thing... mainly because I knew it, and am pretty common.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:19 PM on June 4, 2007

JAMES McNEILL WHISTLER:
Yes, thank you. Right, Your Majesty is like a stream of bat's piss.

(gasps)

THE PRINCE OF WALES:
What?

JAMES McNEILL WHISTLER:
It was one of Wilde's.

OSCAR WILDE:
It sodding was not! It was Shaw!

THE PRINCE OF WALES:
Well, Mr. Shaw?

GEORGE BERNARD SHAW:
I, um, I, ah, I merely meant, Your Majesty, that, ah, you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark.
posted by brundlefly at 10:13 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

You've got to be kidding me.
posted by Dave Faris at 12:11 AM on June 5, 2007

I'm with Dave Faris on this one.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 12:43 AM on June 5, 2007

is there any compelling reason that the sidebar item isn't “most goldfish that die drown in their own urine?” rather than including an eyebrow-raising word that will remain on the front page for a long time?

Compelling reason: most people do not want their world sanitized for their viewing - I know I don't.
posted by Bort at 9:29 AM on June 5, 2007

“Compelling reason: most people do not want their world sanitized for their viewing - I know I don't.”

I don't, either. But I think you're probably jumping the gun in asserting the "most people" part.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:34 AM on June 5, 2007

I think you're probably jumping the gun in asserting the "most people" part.

I think if you change it to "most people on metafilter" then it's probably a true statement. I think the number of people who would have some sort of problem [personal, work related or whatever] with the word "piss" are in the distinct possible rounds-to-zero minority. This is especially true if you phrase a question like "Would you prefer we changed the text of a direct quote to avoid using words that might raise eyebrows?" I think almost everyone would say no.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:52 AM on June 5, 2007

jessamyn : More to the point, we don't really have much in the way of NSFW filters as far as text goes, though stuff that seems gratuitously over the top may not last long.

And if you ever do decide to set up a NSFW filter, it will render so many of my comments meaningless.

Case in point:

Dave Faris : You've got to be kidding me.

I believe the phrase you are looking for is 'You have got to be fucking kidding me.' Or my preferred 'Are you out of your fucking mind? What the fuck were you thinking?'

Which I think better conveys the sentiment.
posted by quin at 11:03 AM on June 5, 2007

I'm sure you're right, but the word "fucking" is pretty jarring, so I avoided using it.
posted by Dave Faris at 11:05 AM on June 5, 2007

You've got to be falcon kidding me.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:09 AM on June 5, 2007

but the word "fucking" is pretty jarring, so I avoided using it.

The sci-fi world has provided us with options, if you don't mind sounding like a geek: frelling, fracking, and my personal fav, rutting.
posted by quin at 11:44 AM on June 5, 2007

You've got to be falcon kidding me.

I object to the sexist nature of that remark. The falcon is the female bird. You should say:

You've got to be tiercel kidding me.
posted by languagehat at 11:46 AM on June 5, 2007

Ima smack you so hard tiercel run down your face, buddy.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:08 PM on June 5, 2007

piss on the sidebar
will anyone be upset?
overthink it more
posted by lazaruslong at 12:35 PM on June 5, 2007

Best Magic 8-Ball responses ever.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:38 PM on June 5, 2007

It brings a tear into my eyes
When I begin to realize
I've pissed so much with this fish food
I guess I'll drown in my own piss.

I've been pissing just like a child
My urea levels are running wild
If you don't give me real goldfish food
I guess I'll drown, oh yeah, in my own piss.
posted by languagehat at 1:28 PM on June 5, 2007

"fucking" is pretty jarring

Stabbing too. Kinda reminds me of kool-aid pickles.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 1:54 PM on June 5, 2007

“This is especially true if you phrase a question like ‘Would you prefer we changed the text of a direct quote to avoid using words that might raise eyebrows?’ I think almost everyone would say no.”

Yes. But the sidebar didn't have to use a direct quote and, in fact, you didn't bother to indicate it was a direct quote. I can't say for sure, but I think that I wouldn't have mentioned it if you had used quotation marks. I think I would have just seen it and thought, well, it's a direct quote and never given it a second thought.

“and my personal fav, rutting.”

Science fiction didn't give us the word rutting, Old French did.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:40 PM on June 5, 2007

Science fiction didn't give us the word rutting, Old French did.

no duh. the point was that in sci-fi it's used as slang in place of 'fucking', not that joss whedon invented the word 'rutting.'
posted by Hat Maui at 3:52 PM on June 5, 2007

This is especially true if you phrase a question like "Would you prefer we changed the text of a direct quote to avoid using words that might raise eyebrows?" I think almost everyone would say no.

Actually I'd probably say bollocks, but the point still stands.
posted by ob at 4:47 PM on June 5, 2007

John Milton says: Turn then to the first of Kings, where God himself uses the phrase “I will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall.” Which had it been an unseemly speech in the heat of an earnest expression, then we must conclude that Jonathan or Onkelos the targumists were of cleaner language than he that made the tongue; for they render it as briefly, “I will cut off all who are at years of discretion,” that is to say, so much discretion as to hide nakedness. Whereas God, who is the author both of purity and eloquence, chose this phrase as fittest in that vehement character wherein he spake. Otherwise that plain word might have easily been forborne: which the masoreths and rabbinical scholiasts, not well attending, have often used to blur the margent with Keri instead of Ketiv, and gave us this insulse rule out of their Talmud, “That all words which in the law are written obscenely, must be changed to more civil words:” fools, who would teach men to read more decently than God thought good to write.
posted by moss at 4:50 PM on June 5, 2007

“no duh. the point was that in sci-fi it's used as slang in place of 'fucking', not that joss whedon invented the word 'rutting.'”

He didn't invent that usage of the word, either. I doubt that he even invented its usage as an expletive. If rut meaning sexual intercourse goes back to Middle English, then it's a good bet that its use as an expletive goes back nearly as far. Maybe not. But in any event, rutting as a synonym for fucking predates Whedon by about a bazillion years.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:00 PM on June 5, 2007

“So the point of your MetaTalk thread is to call out mathowie because he did not use quotation marks.”

Your logic doesn't resemble our Earth logic.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:02 PM on June 5, 2007

A prerequisite for my posting something is not necessarily the point of my posting something. Jessamyn's omission of quotation marks could have been the point of my post, but it wasn't. That it wasn't is chiefly demonstrated by the facts that I say that it wasn't, that I made explicit what my point was—that piss might unnecessarily be detrimental to MeFi—and that even in my mention of quotation marks I didn't say that I preferred that she had included them, only that had she not included them, I wouldn't have posted.

If you can't follow this line of reasoning, nor see the evidence for its validity, and instead assert something contrary, then, indeed, you are using some non-standard form of logic that, presumably, is extraterrestrial in origin. Did you ever suffer a blackout followed by unexplained anal discomfort?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:48 PM on June 5, 2007

That's entirely possible.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:20 PM on June 5, 2007

If "Nazi Cumshot" is okay, I'm pretty sure "piss" is fine.
posted by LordSludge at 1:59 PM on June 6, 2007

Nazi Cumshot is a great band/album name.

It is also what I've decided to name my declawed and circumcised cat (who I will then smoke up).
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 2:08 PM on June 6, 2007