Can we raise the level?

December 10, 2001 7:13 PM

Can we raise the level? MeFi is what we make it. Is there anything we both can and should do, besides policing, to deliberately improve the site and our enjoyment thereof? [more]
posted by mattpfeff to MetaFilter-related at 7:13 PM (32 comments total)

It seems most of the suggestions that are offered for improving MeFi are structural (e.g., categories) or interactive (e.g., karma) or policy-based (official, mathowie deputized MeFiCops).

Surely there are things we can do with the site as it is already set up? Or can't we?

Maybe we could, e.g., occasionally pick topics to discuss over a week and research links related thereto? (I thought Link&Think had some great posts.)

Or perhaps we could agree to try and expand upon threads as they're posted? That is, even if a post is about something you aren't already an expert on, if you had time you could look for another perspective. (Sort of like Carol Anne does already -- imagine if more people did that, instead of just making jokes and disputing tangents.)

I don't know if either of these is a good idea. And I don't mean to suggest any sort of additional personal investment in MeFi. Just wanted to ask, with the time you invest in this site already, and with the site set up the way it is, what do you think you and everyone else could do to make it even better?
posted by mattpfeff at 7:14 PM on December 10, 2001

"Surely there are things we can do with the site as it is already set up?"

Yes. We could enjoy it. It's fine. We like it. We keep coming back every day. Why the constant clamor to fix it?
posted by y6y6y6 at 7:18 PM on December 10, 2001

It starts with you. Behave as you personally feel a MeFi participant should. Let others do as they will. Extreme abuses will be handled in due course. We've seen that done successfully before.
posted by ZachsMind at 7:18 PM on December 10, 2001

If you can get a critical mass to participate, I'm up for your first suggestion. The additional flow of good, substantive posts might be a leadership-by-example thing that would help to show what MeFi can be at it's best. I am, however, a bit skeptical about how much good that will do; I think that, like democracy, we've already gotten MetaFilter at the level that most people want it. To me, that's a shame, but in a community this size I don't think that there's anything that can be done about it.

Apparently, people don't value thoughtful conversation and knowledgeable, substantive contributions. They want to joke and laugh and spout the usual political platitudes. And that's fine. MetaFilter can't be everything to everyone, but even I'll admit that it's pretty good at meeting most people's needs most of the time. Actually, walrus recently said it better than I every could: MetaFilter is somewhat like we all want it to be, but less so.

Your second suggestion is excellent.
posted by gd779 at 7:47 PM on December 10, 2001

Wow. Between the two of them, y6 and zach have just answered every etiquette/policy question ever asked on MeTa!

Except, alas, this one. Not asking to fix anything, and not asking about etiquette. Just wondering if people would be interested in collaborating on stuff — posting style, occasional posting topics, or something else?

(What gd779 says makes sense to me, though.)
posted by mattpfeff at 7:52 PM on December 10, 2001

It starts with you. Behave as you personally feel a MeFi participant should.

That only works if you are completely agnostic about what makes MetaFilter good. Left to themselves, people won't raise the level of discourse. They just don't. You either have to inspire them or you have to create a culture that expects a certain level of quality, however you define that. Either way, the lassie-faire approach doesn't work.
posted by gd779 at 7:55 PM on December 10, 2001

I think we are experiencing a draught. For weeks now there haven't been the usual two or three lively polemics a day newcomers like me had come to expect.

I actually miss the political and religious threads. They've somehow been discouraged by too much piling on the more radical opinions, without which they die.

Here go a few impressions of the top of my head:

There's a general lack of seriousness and, above all, caring. The mood is unusually nonchalant, non-commital, non-partisan. Boring, even.

A lot of the more intellectual members - no need to shun the word - have stopped posting as their efforts are rarely rewarded. When you take the time to set out and back up your thoughts you deserve more than just a yeah or a nay, as increasingly happens.

People seem to be afraid of engaging each other in actual argument. Personality is so much easier to categorize and play with than specific discourse. So there's been an increase in "Oh, there's X again!" and "Here's Me, confirming your Stereotype of me".

MetaFilter is fine, of course. But it is being dumbed down - has been since the infamous beer thread - and, at the same time, homogenized.

Conviction is low; solicitation is high. Posters shy away from saying "Look! This is great!" or "This is unacceptable!" because a new "ethos" of not "editorializing" has crept in which is encouraging conformity and pseudo-tolerance.

So you get members soliciting opinions rather than offering them. Stating and comparing scores in silly tests instead of examining them.

I get the feeling there's a new conformity, dictating that eveything has to be shorter, quicker, funnier, more similar in tone and less dogmatic.

I know I'm generalizing madly and exaggerating as well, but I do feel there's something missing - perhaps it's people who used to post regularly and no longer bother - and that attitude shifts are subtle, but can be deadly.

There's am unhealthy hankering for guidelines, instructions and an iron hand from Matt.

Less people are posting, posts are getting shorter and MeTa threads are increasingly bug and feature-oriented. I also feel there are fewer daily visitors.

And yes, it's still wonderful. But it has been - and can be - better. At least, so it can get worse again.

Perhaps we need to shake things up a bit, by going out on a limb more, make an effort to find stimulating links, finally get MetaChat going to siphon off banter and aimlessness, open up membership for a while, stop bashing the "MeFi Police" and making them feel unwelcome, stop setting up examples of what a "good post" is...

I could go on. Sorry for the rant. Actually, I'm not. :)
posted by MiguelCardoso at 8:11 PM on December 10, 2001

less talk, more rock
posted by sawks at 8:15 PM on December 10, 2001

I agree with Zach. Lead by example. If enough people act in the manner in which they want metafilter members to act, a cultural shift will occur. Why does Matt delete "FIRST POST" and crap about Natalie Portman's grits? Cause if he kept them, they'd only multiply.

I bet most new members don't even read the guidelines. I didn't. They look around, see how everyone else is acting, and act accordingly.
posted by Doug at 8:34 PM on December 10, 2001

I think we are experiencing a draught. For weeks now there haven't been the usual two or three lively polemics a day newcomers like me had come to expect.

MMMMMMM, Draught!

sorry miguel, i just had to


posted by eyeballkid at 8:38 PM on December 10, 2001

Maybe we could, e.g., occasionally pick topics to discuss over a week and research links related thereto? (I thought Link&Think had some great posts.)

So why don't you create a mailing list of people interested in this, choose a topic, and develop a good front page post (with the input of the group) to initiate the discussion? The list members can research ahead of time if they want, since they'll see the FPP in development.

I don't believe there's anything in the guidelines that forbids this or requires Matt's official blessing.

I think you meant it more in the spirit of Link&Think, with multiple posts on a topic, but that could get old fast if done too often. A single post on a well researched topic would be more effective, in my opinion. If the discussion spawns other posts dealing with different aspects of the topic, great. But I would begin with one.


posted by jheiz at 8:41 PM on December 10, 2001

(All this, of course, is assuming you have good links to support your posts - I was not suggesting you should attempt to turn metafilter into JustAnotherDiscussionBoard™)
posted by jheiz at 8:45 PM on December 10, 2001

what y6X3 + zach said
posted by Mack Twain at 8:47 PM on December 10, 2001

Seriously, though.

What this site is/becomes begins and ends with what mathowie wants it to be. The deletion of FIRST POST!'s and double posts as well as the occasional lashing out at users for their behavior usually sets things in the right direction. This idea of MeFi police always amuses me. The truth is that we're (and I say "we're" because it's usually the MeTa denizens that take part in this) merely self-proclaimed [and for the most part powerless] deputies.

I don't think that MeFi in its current state can exist without a little cultural anarchy. Nobody will like every post on the front page. I don't believe that MeFi is being "dumbed-down" as Miguel puts it. MeFi can be as challenging or lame as it has always been (don't believe me, click on the one year ago, two years ago links on the main page).

MeTa, however, is just a forum to bitch and we have to bitch about something. I come to MeFi everyday and still find it as interesting as I did when I started lurking a year ago. There are always going to be crappy threads, either crappy in relation to the reader's tastes or crappy by definition. What else can we do but ignore the crap but bypass it until it has been smited?
posted by eyeballkid at 8:52 PM on December 10, 2001

I think you meant it more in the spirit of Link&Think, with multiple posts on a topic, but that could get old fast if done too often.

Yup, and agreed. I wasn't at all thinking saturation, just a theme for a few posts/threads, all of which would be related. But, yeah, it wouldn't work if done too often or if it started to weigh too heavily on the front page. And the topics would have to be such that there were good links to be found, and we did so.

MeTa, however, is just a forum to bitch

On the other hand, maybe it's more than that. I hope so. I guess we will find out.

And, since I can't resist a good argument:

what y6X3 + zach said

what I said
posted by mattpfeff at 9:17 PM on December 10, 2001

Apparently, people don't value thoughtful conversation and knowledgeable, substantive contributions. They want to joke and laugh and spout the usual political platitudes.

I value all of the above, bar the 'platitudes' bit. I'm not really sure what you folks are worried about, but then I don't really go anywhere but MeTa these days.

You know, I hadn't realized that until I 'said' it. It's true - I only dip into the BlueZone in small doses these days. But those small doses seem to indicate to me that things are pretty much as they've been since I started coming here, at least - some good days, some bad ones, some thread hijacks, some crap posts, some egos and wrestling matches, some absolute diamond-hard fascinating discussions, some erudition, some crap jokes, some pee-myself-laughing ones too, a generally tolerant and friendly hubbub.

It's not bad, friends. What is, is good. Relax, partake, enjoy. MetaSoma.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:26 AM on December 11, 2001

Perhaps there ought to be a separate MetaMock site for some commenters?
posted by Carol Anne at 4:13 AM on December 11, 2001

Are 'mataphors' things that are used to designate 'matadors', or 'matadors' used to designate 'other things', is my Big Question.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:23 AM on December 11, 2001

One of the important things in a functioning community is to maintain a social discourse. The little "in" jokes are fine, so long as they don't drown serious posting: they help to create and strengthen bonds and a feeling of belonging. Even the most serious of posters indulges occasionally, and even the most flippant makes the occasional serious post, from what I've seen.

The balance has flown back and forward following the September 11th influx of members and postings: this is probably the normal pattern of a community re-establishing equilibrium after a big change. I don't see any particular need to worry: I see good signs as well as bad. Probably more and sharper extremes of both, but that's largely a question of scale.

I am more worried that some people seem to feel they can no longer participate. I'm sure they'll be missed, but maybe they're just taking a hiatus? Too soon to decide in most cases.

I'm a great believer in Zach and Doug's policy of behav[ing] as you personally feel a [...] participant should. in "real" life, and I think it applies equally to MeFi. Trying to make people do things doesn't always work, as it drives resentment, so the main chance you have to influence others is by positive example. To that end I've personally been trying to resist getting emotionally involved in discussions and to raise the quality of the comments I do make, recently. Dunno if it's working or not. Give me time.

FWIW I really liked jheiz' suggestion. Could be worth starting a mailing list, putting a one-off MeTa thread up, and getting a text ad. Establish a really thick stew of a topic towards the start of the week, give people a couple of days to mull it, and post it towards the end. A really deep model thread once a week could only help to raise the bar a little. The tricky part would probably be agreeing on a subject ...
posted by walrus at 6:28 AM on December 11, 2001

Same here. Kuro5hin's emails are very well written and stir up excitement and interest without misrepresentation. They also add up to a useful and, yes, comforting logbook. Why not follow their example? Perhaps member Rusty could be coaxed into lending someone his style book...
posted by MiguelCardoso at 9:05 AM on December 11, 2001

Surely there are things we can do with the site as it is already set up? Or can't we?

"Improving" MeFi without altering its architecture would be very difficult because the structure for discourse here is two dimensional. The FPPs represent one dimension, and each FPP links to a single, untitled thread, the second dimension. Any depth would require a third dimension, and without a supporting architecture, the depth must be simulated, which people achieve by quoting those to whom they are responding.

An alternative for depth is temporal, but here too, MeFi is limited in that the FPPs are Last-In, First-Out and the threads are First-In, First-Out. Because of the LIFO nature of FPPs, an ongoing weekly discussion would be quickly buried without some mechanism to keep it on top of the heap or to place it in a sidebar. (Also, an editor would have to be appointed to choose topics.) Then again, the FIFO nature of the threads leads to the problem addressed in another MeTa discussion, that being first posts leading the general discussion off-topic.

Generally, I think this is why MeFi works so well at pointing users to interesting websites that speak for themselves and not so well with news stories that foster debate. The discourse structure encourages "Wow, that's cool/Man, that sucks" posts and, without the stream of conversation offered by multithreading, discourages long analytical debates. For the most part, each post stands on its own.

Enjoy MeFi for what it is, an exellent application of an interactive Memepool. In that regard, MeFi is an unqualified success.
posted by mischief at 9:47 AM on December 11, 2001

some good days, some bad ones, some thread hijacks, some crap posts, some egos and wrestling matches, some absolute diamond-hard fascinating discussions, some erudition, some crap jokes, some pee-myself-laughing ones too, a generally tolerant and friendly hubbub

Aint that the MetaTruth - for me, this pretty much sums it up.
posted by Voyageman at 10:01 AM on December 11, 2001

has been since the infamous beer thread

I post ONE effing thread since I become a member last May, and now it's being recognized as the beginning of the end of Mefi?? Jeez louise, we can't scream at each other ALL the time, can we? :)
posted by UncleFes at 12:48 PM on December 11, 2001

Here go a few impressions of the top of my head

Wow, Miguel, that's your best post in a month.

Or maybe it's just that I agree with everything you said.
posted by rushmc at 5:28 PM on December 11, 2001

Perhaps we need to shake things up a bit, by going out on a limb more, make an effort to find stimulating links, finally get MetaChat going to siphon off banter and aimlessness, open up membership for a while, stop bashing the "MeFi Police" and making them feel unwelcome, stop setting up examples of what a "good post" is...

Ding ding ding ding ding!

You hit the nail on the head, Miguel.

Policing doesn't really work and I don't think it is needed except for double posts, obvious spam and blatantly idiotic behavior. The "Liberal Metafilter Cabal" thread (yes, there's been some Rabid Paranoid Conservatives are taking over threads too) from a few weeks ago here was about the dumbest thing I've seen here. Political Correctness on both sides doesn't cut it.

If folks want to whine about Metafilter going to hell, I challenge them to post some new, original, quality links. Perhaps we're on the verge of collapse here, but I still find interesting discussions.
posted by zeb vance at 6:43 PM on December 11, 2001

Ah, the days before the beer thread...
MetaFilter was MetaFilter then. All-intelligence, all-fun, all-knowledge, all-wit, all the time.
Then some guy sipping a Bud in his Barca-Lounger - oh, innocently enough I'm sure - gets this great idea:
"Hey, I wonder what beer they drink over at that there MetaFiles place..."
So he asks his wife to bring him his cashmere-covered laptop. Lovingly she appears with his Webster's Third as well. He waves if off:
"Thanks, honey, but I won't be needing that; not this time..."
And a sickly laugh is heard all round his Smokey Mountains estate.
Then Matt, in his sole act of unwisdom, probably lacking something fresh and frothy for his sidebar, decides to declare it the All-Time Best Thread Ever...
And the rest is history.

We all like you, UncleFes, but it's time you faced up to your responsibility for the tragic events that followed your reckless posting behaviour.
Don't know about the other guys - some of them put off all types of candy for life - but I'm seeking reparations, myself.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:11 AM on December 12, 2001

I still don't know what you people are talking about.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:30 AM on December 12, 2001

hmm. A mailing list would be a good way to organize something, but I'm still not sure anyone's agreed on what the goal would be (which is what I tried to ask in this thread -- the what to do. The how would come after). Anyway if anyone wants to create a mailing list I'd be into that.

Anyway, I imagine I'll go out and deliberately look for interesting topics for FPPs every once in a while. And maybe also look to see if there aren't any worthy follow-ups for FPPs other people post (but that don't fit into the threads themselves, obviously).

So it turns out MeTa really is just about bitching and bantering?
posted by mattpfeff at 7:29 AM on December 12, 2001

1.) Maybe when one makes a new mefi post, there could be a checkbox for it being a "poll". Then users could choose whether or not they viewed poll posts or not.

(And Matt, if you do that, add checkboxes for "ebay", "kottke" posts and "halcyon" posts. I'd sure like to block them too.)

2.) To make use of older threads, could we view a "most recently posted in" page?
posted by kv at 7:26 PM on December 12, 2001

'being recognized as the beginning of the end of Mefi??' I thought it was when you threatened the president?:)
posted by clavdivs at 7:56 AM on December 13, 2001

Fes threatened the Pres?!?

This is the beginning of the end of MeFi!!!!!
posted by mattpfeff at 8:33 AM on December 13, 2001

::Fes leans back in chair, gazes balefully at the fellow diners at Chez Mefi::

"You need people like me so that you can point your finger and say, 'That's the bad guy.' So what does that make you, good? You not good, you just know how to hide, how to lie. Me? I don't have that problem. Me? I always tell the truth - even when I lie. So say goodnight to the bad guy. It's the last time you're gonna see a bad guy like this."

:D
posted by UncleFes at 11:00 AM on December 13, 2001