Comments on: Those Run of the Mill Hasidic Landlords

Those Run of the Mill Hasidic Landlords

The Gooch — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:00:40 -0800

What's the ruling on borderline anti-Semitism? In the interest of full disclosure, I may be overly sensitive due to sharing the same religion (though not the particular sect of that religion) with the landlord in question. However, I can't help but feel that had the OP made a similar comment using a different race or ethnic group ("This is just your run-of-the-mill black/Hispanic landlord"), with the obvious inference that certain stereotypes can be assumed about the landlord from the identifying remark, it would not be tolerated. So why is it ok with a particular sect of Jews? It seems to me that this is yet another example of some groups being off-limits to show prejudice against, while with others it's fair game.

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:07:43 -0800

It seems like someone called that out in-thread and a few people mentioned why it might matter. I think as a stand-alone comment it could read pretty strange and/or screwed up, but the OP explained why she mentioned it. Otoh, the whole "shylockinan" thing that the OP supposedly clarified with, to me, is significantly more sketch.

By: nomisxid

nomisxid — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:08:15 -0800

You flagged it, right? If so, I'd say the ruling seems pretty obvious.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:27:00 -0800

The Shylock comment puts it severely over the top. That's not ok. The OP should be asked to rewrite and resubmit the question.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:37:23 -0800

Yeah, the clarification looks well iffy (I think, anyway - it also didn't seem to make much sense).

By: nola

nola — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:38:30 -0800

The OP's comment is offencive as far as I can tell. Poorly worded. I don't know that there is anything to be done about it, but I think you were right to bring it here, and it doesn't reflect well on that person. So no I don't think you're overly sensitive.

By: deern the headlice

deern the headlice — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:38:46 -0800

Had the statement been "This is just your run-of-the-mill Muslim landlord" who is also "a lone TowelHeadian landlord petrified in his own stereotype...", it would have otherwise, understandably, created an enormous wall of flames around AskMe. But it would have also been confusing because TowelHeadian isn't a real adjective.

By: CitrusFreak12

CitrusFreak12 — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:40:03 -0800

The Shylock comment would be completely fine with me if the OP hadn't made a point of stating that the landlord was Jewish. In that context, its usage seems more than a little suspect.

By: Atom Eyes

Atom Eyes — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:41:37 -0800

What's the ruling on borderline anti-Semitism?

For the last time, it's not anti-Semitism! We're just tired of them swimming over here and taking all our dish-washing and fruit-picking jobs.

By: milarepa

milarepa — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:45:17 -0800

As my mom says, anti-semtism is like gravity: a natural law of the universe, and, for all pratical purposes, inescapable.

By: SassHat

SassHat — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:51:41 -0800

Flag as offensive, same as in feminist/racist town.

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:52:36 -0800

As my mom says, anti-semtism is like gravity: a natural law of the universe, and, for all pratical purposes, inescapable.

To me that's a totally mysterious statement that would benefit from some additional context. Is your Mom Jewish? Mine is, and if she said that I'd consider it all sorts of messed up. On the other hand if my Dad or some other non-Jew said it, I'd consider it messed up in a toally other direction.

By: misha

misha — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:53:54 -0800

I didn't get the Hasidic reference, either. I thought it was in poor taste and completely irrelevant. As jessamyn said, though, some commenters chimed in to say that there might actually be some relevance.

But the "Shylockian" comment? Whoa. Way over the top, IMO.

By: sneakin

sneakin — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:57:48 -0800

I can't figure out why that question remains posted in its original form.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:59:58 -0800

I agree that it's a bigoted remark.

As my mom says, anti-semtism is like gravity: a natural law of the universe, and, for all pratical purposes, inescapable.

I have the impression that many -no, not many, some - Jews hold this principle, and of course, that is part of their rationale for needing the state of Israel, and a living interpretation of the concept of the "chosen people." Like many ideas about divine will or destiny, I find that rather off-putting.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:02:51 -0800

Plus, he's more a Fagin than a Shylock.

By: Devils Slide

Devils Slide — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:04:22 -0800

Yeah, not cool at all.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:08:47 -0800

Worse still, he's wrong. A typical hasidic landlord would demand a pint of gentile infant blood along with the monthly rent. To be delivered at midnight at a nearby graveyard, where he and his ilk are plotting world finances.

By: tristeza

tristeza — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:10:51 -0800

Did anyone read hermitosis' comment?

By: milarepa

milarepa — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:13:34 -0800

My mom is Jewish by birth (and decidedly anti-Zionist, chosen people bs) and our extended family has directly suffered the effects of anti-semitism in many wonderful european countries. It's never said as seriously as I guess it came across, but there is definitely some resignation behind it.

By: ThePinkSuperhero

ThePinkSuperhero — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:21:05 -0800

hermitosis' comment.

By: mygothlaundry

mygothlaundry — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:37:13 -0800

Hermitosis has a point. I also had a sleazy Hasidic landlord in NY many years ago and they do indeed have a tightly knit community, so having that information in the original question could be considered useful. However, that's what I thought right up until I saw the shylockian comment, which IMHO is well beyond the pale.

By: amro

amro — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:52:18 -0800

The mention in the original post that the landlord is Hasidic may have been okay if the OP had explained in a culturally sensitive way why that might be relevant. Without context for those of us who do not live in Brooklyn, it just looks shitty.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:00:58 -0800

To me that's a totally mysterious statement

Really? Lots of Jews feel that way, and frankly it's not an unreasonable inference from the last couple thousand years' worth of history. Not "anti-Semitism is natural and right," but "anti-Semitism is inescapable." It's an easy statement to disagree with, but "totally mysterious"? I find that reaction totally mysterious.

And yeah, the Shylock reference was pretty ignorant.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:11:33 -0800

Could someone explain to naive me, sheltered among kindly California Jews, how the fundamentalism or insularity of Brooklyn Hasidism contributes to this guy's despicable behavior? It still reads to me as "The Jew can't help but be greedy," though I assume there's more to it that I'm not getting.

By: caddis

caddis — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:14:03 -0800

It was a pretty racist post. This is not the sort of crap which should be kept free of complaints in the thread. Just shuffle your complaints off to MeTa. Nothing to see here. No, that thread should be bombed with crap until it is pulled. I hate that nonsense, no matter how bad the landlord might be.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:15:23 -0800

I hear they're also dirty. Maybe there is a correlation between being dirty and greedy. Or maybe its some toxic combination of being dirty and clannish. And rootlessly cosmopolitan. Those elements conspire to make hasids love diamonds.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:21:56 -0800

That being said, as a Jew, I love the phrase "rootless cosmopolitan." Who wouldn't want to be that?

By: caddis

caddis — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:25:34 -0800

Well, my two complaints were removed from the thread. I encourage some civil disobedience whereupon people keep complaining in the thread itself until it is ruined and pulled. There is no room on MeFi for this.

By: spork

spork — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:31:05 -0800

In order to give accurate advice, it would be helpful if the poster would give a general description of the landlord's nose. How curved is it? How much larger is it than an average white person's nose?

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:32:06 -0800

"And yeah, the Shylock reference was pretty ignorant."

Dude, total ADD moment (from Shylock to shyster to Shamus): Is there any decent evidence on how Shamus came to mean "detective"? A quick look around didn't turn up much that seemed well-documented or particularly convincing, and there seemed significant factions for Yiddish or Irish origins without anything to back them up.

By: koeselitz

koeselitz — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:34:41 -0800

zoomorphic: Sure, sure. Unfortunately, there are specific aspects to our relationship that come to light when Iimplicitly identify myself as a non-member of his community: he's a small business guy who's working as a part of a larger communal network of landlords who own property in this area, make repairs on the same buildings, and rent to white kids rather than Hispanics. Anyone in Brooklyn would immediately apprehend why he won't take checks, not mention why a jury might unfairly look favorably on me and my white bread subletters rather than on him, a lone Shylockian landlord petrified in his own stereotype predetermined by specific demographic histories and social strata. It's sad but true, and far more complicated than niceties will allow.

This is brilliant. It's a remarkable feat of contradiction. Translation:

Anyone in Brooklyn would immediately apprehend why he won't take checks, not mention why a jury might unfairly look favorably on me and my white bread subletters rather than on him...

"If you live in Brooklyn, you know that those people are all like that."

...a lone Shylockian landlord petrified in his own stereotype predetermined by specific demographic histories and social strata.

"I've learned the nineteenth-century trick of rationalizing stereotypes, and don't see the point of just being individually specific about greed or underhandedness when I can drag a whole social group into the issue."

"It's sad but true, and far more complicated than niceties will allow."

"Racism isn't nice. But the truth isn't nice, either. Ergo, the truth is that it's justifiable to be racist. But all you nice people don't understand it like I do."

*gives self gold promised gold star for not ranting about how much I hate NYC*

By: joseph_elmhurst

joseph_elmhurst — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:35:58 -0800

klangklangston, the OED says "origin uncertain." Sorry

By: Kwantsar

Kwantsar — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:36:33 -0800

The "Shylock" remark was wrong, but Chassidism is a culture every bit as much as it is a religion, and culture is not off limits here-- especially in Ask Metafilter, which is about finding answers to questions.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:39:22 -0800

"Could someone explain to naive me, sheltered among kindly California Jews, how the fundamentalism or insularity of Brooklyn Hasidism contributes to this guy's despicable behavior?"

Because it's a tight-knit culture (less open to social disapprobation), with a significant anti-modern bent? It makes him less likely to deal with an out-group person fairly, and there's also a big chauvinistic sexist tendency to the culture.

Obviously, not all Hasidics conform to the stereotype, but there are some fairly reasonable cultural assumptions that can be drawn. It's like the prior AskMe kerfluffle over a woman dealing with Hispanic neighbors, or Stav's discussion of Korean cultural norms. I'd also mention that cultural differences tend to be amplified in conflict, because they provide a way to avoid having to communicate openly—when someone's screwing you, often the last thing they want is to communicate openly and honestly.

By: MLIS

MLIS — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:39:36 -0800

koeselitz: New York City hates you.

By: desjardins

desjardins — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:40:43 -0800

I think that the relevant context to such a statement, if it exists, needs to be explained clearly. There was a similar comment that I flagged awhile back. ("They're Indian. It's hard to get a straight answer out of them.")

White, middle-class, midwestern me has absolutely no idea how either statement could be contextualized as non-racist or not-anti-semitic. (I didn't even know that Indians had the stereotype of being obfuscating, so the statement itself made no sense. Hell, I didn't even know if she was referring to Native Americans or Indians from India. As to the question under discussion, I had no idea what Hasidic landlords were supposedly like.)

By: koeselitz

koeselitz — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:44:43 -0800

Kwantsar: The "Shylock" remark was wrong, but Chassidism is a culture every bit as much as it is a religion, and culture is not off limits here-- especially in Ask Metafilter, which is about finding answers to questions.

"I have a problem with my stupid American landlord-- you know how they are. They're all absolute idiots. And if you've ever met them, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Anyway..."

By: caddis

caddis — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:50:17 -0800

Obviously, zoomorphic is intimidated by her landlord's Hasid horns. Just because she can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. Just ask her.

By: koeselitz

koeselitz — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:53:40 -0800

MLIS: koeselitz: New York City hates you.

Well, I know. But I'm learning to live with it. I've ranted about how much I dislike it a lot in the past, but I'm trying to get over that and just be a little more pleasant.

By: The Gooch

The Gooch — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:59:24 -0800

The "Shylock" remark was wrong, but Chassidism is a culture every bit as much as it is a religion, and culture is not off limits here-- especially in Ask Metafilter, which is about finding answers to questions..

I hate to use the hackneyed "slippery slope" argument, but I'm not sure calling something a "culture" instead of a "religion/race/ethnic group" justifies promoting the worst, most hateful stereotypes of a particular set of people. For example, there is such thing as black culture too, but I'm guessing "I just moved into a new apartment building in a predominantly black neighborhood. Any recommendations for a good deadbolt lock?" would be frowned upon. I honestly don't see the difference between the two.

By: Kwantsar

Kwantsar — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:03:06 -0800

"I have a problem with my stupid American landlord-- you know how they are. They're all absolute idiots. And if you've ever met them, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Anyway..."

Either you're arguing in bad faith, you're a complete relativist, or you are otherwise somehow incapable... ah, hell with it. klangklangston did a far better job of explaining my point of view than I could do.

I honestly don't see the difference between the two.

Well, the first and most obvious in a long list of differences is that being a Chassid is a choice.

By: MLIS

MLIS — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:14:32 -0800

caddis: Are you going to self-immolate? This is a promising start.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:15:51 -0800

I honestly don't see how the information about religious affiliation or ethnicity adds to the likelihood of a better answer. Are there special "legally-intimidating measures" for recovering money from the Hasidim of Brooklyn outsiders to the community can try that are different to things you'd do to get cash back off anyone else? So it's pointless as well as bigoted.

By: The Gooch

The Gooch — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:18:11 -0800

Kwantsar, for clarification, I meant I don't see the difference in severity between the two statements (the one regarding Hasidim from the original question and my hypothetical one regarding African Americans above). Both throw in the cultural identity of an individual or group of people for the express purpose of presenting them in a negative way based on stereotypes.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:19:32 -0800

Is there any decent evidence on how Shamus came to mean "detective"? A quick look around didn't turn up much that seemed well-documented or particularly convincing, and there seemed significant factions for Yiddish or Irish origins without anything to back them up.

Nope, those are the two main contenders, and they're still duking it out.

"In this corner..." nah, better not go there in this thread.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:19:33 -0800

Well, the first and most obvious in a long list of differences is that being a Chassid is a choice.

Well, to an extent. Some of what is being addressed here are generalized stereotypes about Jews. And I suppose you could make the case that being Jewish is a choice as well, but antisemites tend not to agree. They tend to think that whatever is wrong with Jews is just something that's wrong with them. It's why people whose great grandparents had converted were shoveled into ovens.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:27:41 -0800

"I honestly don't see the difference between the two."

You don't? You're a liar or an idiot.

"Both throw in the cultural identity of an individual or group of people for the express purpose of presenting them in a negative way based on stereotypes."

Wrong. The expressed purpose is to get the security deposit back. That there's a cultural conflict may be relevant information, and it's not that big a deal for answerers who don't think it's relevant to still answer the fucking question or not, to the best of their ability.

By: TheOnlyCoolTim

TheOnlyCoolTim — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:31:16 -0800

Could someone explain to naive me, sheltered among kindly California Jews, how the fundamentalism or insularity of Brooklyn Hasidism contributes to this guy's despicable behavior?

It's very different from your California Jews. Culturally, they're very close to you. The Hasidics aren't. Think if the question involved how to conduct business with the Amish, how to rent an apartment in Japan, how to ride the Chinatown bus, or what's an appropriate gift to bring to a Kenyan host. I've never dealt with Hasidic landlords in Brooklyn, but I bet that addition to the question would let someone who has provide a more specific answer.

By: bruce

bruce — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:38:05 -0800

i always thought "shamus" was just a misspelling of the irish name "seamus". maybe there was a time when irish people gravitated to the detective business because it was more difficult for them to get regular jobs.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:39:36 -0800

Oh, come on. Hasids don't live in some mythical Jewbania, and there's nothing especially unique about Brooklyn hasids (there are plenty of hasids in LA). Yes, they are a small, relatively insular community, but they speak English, participate, to a large extent, in the outside world, do business with non-Jews, watch television, go to movies, ride public transportation, etc. They know and obey the laws of the United States when doing business, not some obscure hasid law. If there is a problem with a hasidic landlord, it's because he's a landlord and perhaps a crook, not because he's a hasid and hasidim are a community that doesn't share the larger values of the outside community.

By: nola

nola — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:44:54 -0800

You don't? You're a liar or an idiot. -klangklangston

Very generous klang.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:48:21 -0800

Because it's a tight-knit culture (less open to social disapprobation), with a significant anti-modern bent? It makes him less likely to deal with an out-group person fairly, and there's also a big chauvinistic sexist tendency to the culture.

Also, Klang, what makes you presume that they are going to tend to deal with an out-group unfairly? That's pretty presumptuous.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:48:49 -0800

Yes. I understand that Hasids are, ahem, insular and fundamental. How does that make them apt to be slumlords, or to shirk the law for money? The implication of "Those Run of the Mill Hasidic Landlords" is certainly that there is a deterministic correlation between these two traits. It's not that this guy is refusing to speak with a woman or shake hands, or do work on the sabbath. It's not his funny hat. It's his greed that is tied to Hasidism in the offending phrase. Is there any justification for that? No? Then it's bigoted and I think it should go.

I keep imagining how easy it would be to write this question as about a "bitchy Leona Helmsley type woman landlady from hell," and that would certainly be dealt with severely as sexist.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:51:26 -0800

on non-preview, obviously I agree with AZ.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:55:12 -0800

"Also, Klang, what makes you presume that they are going to tend to deal with an out-group unfairly? That's pretty presumptuous."

Um… Because that's pretty much a social relations constant? It's true of nearly every GROUP, though not necessarily every individual. But it does make it more likely.

"How does that make them apt to be slumlords, or to shirk the law for money?"

It doesn't (though I'd argue that being Hasidic does make one more likely to be a landlord in certain parts of Brooklyn, but I think it's the being a landlord part that makes 'em shirk the law for money, not their Jewish identity). What it does mean is that some communication tactics that assume a shared culture (like threatening their reputation with the general population) won't be effective, and it does mean that certain effective communication techniques (threatening their reputation in-group) will be more difficult.

By: AmbroseChapel

AmbroseChapel — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:08:51 -0800

I've learned my lesson about calling racism around here, so I'll just derail:

>Is there any decent evidence on how Shamus came to mean "detective"?

Not in the least definitive, but Michael Chabon has a lot of fun with this kind of thing in "The Yiddish Policemen's Union". If you're interested in that kind of thing, you'll really enjoy what he does with slang and dialect.

Best. Jewish-Alaskan-Free-State-Alternate-Universe. Evah.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:13:06 -0800

His reputation sounds like it's better protected by the market demand than the Hasids. I don't think smearing this guy's community standing was a tack the poster was considering taking, rather she was seeking "other legally-intimidating measures," so I find your point interesting but not pertinent enough to function as an excuse for expressing frustration with a projection of "greedy slumlord" on "Hasid." After all, most Hasids are nice, I assume. Some even have killer flow!

By: oxford blue

oxford blue — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:15:36 -0800

This thread is clearly part of the metafilter zionist movement to control our snacks. Never!

By: TheOnlyCoolTim

TheOnlyCoolTim — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:15:48 -0800

They know and obey the laws of the United States when doing business, not some obscure hasid law.

You know that they are, in fact, following obscure Hasidic laws.

I mean, it's useful in a question about landlords to identify the type of landlord. He could write "my landlord is a big corporation," "I have an absentee landlord and a management company" or "my landlord is a retiree renting out the spare room" and it gives useful information to the question. Similarly, so does "my landlord is a Hasidic Jew from Brooklyn." "My Black landlord" and "my woman landlord" don't, but "Brooklyn Hasidic" does.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:21:23 -0800

♫ The west coast has the sunshine
And the Jews all get so tanned
I dig a french bikini on hawaii island
Mohels by a palm tree in the sand
I wish they all could be California Jews... ♫

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:40:33 -0800

You know that they are, in fact, following obscure Hasidic laws.

Which ones?

By: M.C. Lo-Carb!

M.C. Lo-Carb! — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:42:59 -0800

So I have this Scientologist landlord...

By: Kwantsar

Kwantsar — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:58:35 -0800

Are there special "legally-intimidating measures" for recovering money from the Hasidim of Brooklyn outsiders to the community can try that are different to things you'd do to get cash back off anyone else? So it's pointless as well as bigoted.

The answer to the question (for me personally) is "I don't know." Unless the questioner knows that the answer is no, then it's obviously not pointless. The question (and the detail therein) have a very specific point: "How do I get my money back?"

By: Kwantsar

Kwantsar — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:07:17 -0800

You know that they are, in fact, following obscure Hasidic laws.

Which ones?

Well, my last tailor (An Orthodox jew, but not a Chassid) closed at noon on Friday-- not an obscure law, but a departure from the customs of larger society driven by his religion and/or culture. And Chick-Fil-A is closed on fucking Sunday. Both of which piss me off as I think business owners should worship money, not God.

By: Kwantsar

Kwantsar — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:08:04 -0800

The lack of a capital J was an oversight. Please accept my sincere apologies.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:08:31 -0800

♫ The west coast has the sunshine
And the Jews all get so tanned
I dig a french bikini on hawaii island
Mohels by a palm tree in the sand
I wish they all could be California Jews... ♫

"round, round schlep around, I schlep around..."

By: TheOnlyCoolTim

TheOnlyCoolTim — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:08:40 -0800

Which ones?

There are a lot. Personally, I find one of the more interesting examples in the law that a continuous wire enclosing the community negates the law that you cannot go outside carrying things on the Sabbath.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:11:57 -0800

Well, I'm talking about laws that contravene the laws of the United Sates. Believe me, there is no hasidic landlord law that is different than regular landlord law. In fact, Jewish law makes it very clear that Jews must obey the laws of the country they inhabit. In fact, engaging in ethical business practices is considered so important in Judaism that there is a popular legend that it is the first thing that come up when you die and are questioned in the afterlife.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:14:36 -0800

Still don't see it, Kwantsar. Distinguish between an individual and a corporation, sure. The rest, I really don't get it if it's legal remedies that are being suggested.

By: mathowie

mathowie — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:25:58 -0800

I agree it was weird to mention it in the question and comes off as vaguely anti-semitic, so I deleted it. They can try again next week.

By: Neiltupper

Neiltupper — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:26:34 -0800

The "Shylock" remark was wrong, but Chassidism is a culture every bit as much as it is a religion, and culture is not off limits here-- especially in Ask Metafilter, which is about finding answers to questions.

But the OP's question was: Are there other legally-intimidating measures I might take to let this dude know we mean business? The landlord's culture or religion have no relevance to answers to that question.

I think the post is offensive and should be pulled.

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:02:26 -0800

You know who else was an anti-Semitic? Huh?

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:02:50 -0800

Thanks, Matt.

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:04:09 -0800

ugh, an anti-Semite, sorry.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:11:04 -0800

Thank you, Matt! May the Lord protect and defend you. May He always shield you from shame.
May you come to be In Israel a shining name. May you be like Ruth and like Esther. May you be deserving of praise. Strengthen him Oh Lord, ~~and keep them from the strangers' ways.~~

By: caddis

caddis — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:12:26 -0800

Thank you Matt.

By: The Gooch

The Gooch — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:47:03 -0800

klangklangston: I honestly don't see the difference between the two.

You don't? You're a liar or an idiot.

Well, in that case, enlighten me. What is the difference between perpetuating the worst, most hateful stereotypes about Jews (money grubbers) and perpetuating the worst, most hateful stereotype about blacks (all criminals)? Or any other minority group for that matter?

Reading responses like yours only serves to prove my initial argument at the top of the thread "that this is yet another example of some groups being off-limits to show prejudice against, while with others it's fair game"

By: EmilyClimbs

EmilyClimbs — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:47:31 -0800

He could write "my landlord is a big corporation," "I have an absentee landlord and a management company" or "my landlord is a retiree renting out the spare room" and it gives useful information to the question. Similarly, so does "my landlord is a Hasidic Jew from Brooklyn."

Yeah, but that's not what he said. If he'd given that information by sying "FWIW, he's a Hasidic Jew from Brooklyn" or something else neutral-sounding (neutral to the religion/culture-- he doesn't have to be neutral towards the guy) then I think many/most people (well, me, anyway) would not be upset, or at least less so. But instead he said "This is just your run-of-the-mill Hasidic slumlord." i.e., a sweeping negative judgment about a group of people.

By: Jahaza

Jahaza — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:26:42 -0800

Thanks Matt.

By: Sailormom

Sailormom — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:54:13 -0800

I have the impression that many -no, not many, some - Jews hold this principle, and of course, that is part of their rationale for needing the state of Israel, and a living interpretation of the concept of the "chosen people."
Ambrosia Voyeur

Funny you should mention that. I came across the following earlier tonight.

"Am Segulah -- the "chosen people" -- an idea which sets Jews apart from others, becomes understood as the "well-choosing people", something that any nation that segulah -- "sustains the action of learning" -- can aspire to.

This is not word-play. We have simply re-discovered and re-validated traditional claims that Torah Hebrew roots are not arbitrary, but rather, intrinsically define that which they describe. The Hebrew letter Samek means "to sustain". Gimel refers to "action" or "relationship" (a camel), and Lamed means "learning" (Samek-Gimel-Lamed is the root of segulah, "chosen/choosing"). Any person or people that "sustains the action of learning" learns to choose well.

Simply by moving from noun-translations to verb-translations, principles that previously have set Jews apart and caused jealousy now unite us with others, as examples of successful behavior."

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:21:47 -0800

It's amazing how jealous people get of the words "The Chosen People." You want our lot? Have it! Be despised for centuries. Be a tiny minority. Suffer outrageous hatred, calumny, libel, genocide. Worship a distant and strange God. Have countries invite you in, because they have a strange superstition against lending money with interest and you don't, and their economy won't grow as a result. Watch them despise you for it. Wait for them to rise up against you and eventually kick you out. Enjoy the pogroms. Enjoy the ghettos. Have fun fleeing a country, only to find all borders closed to you. Watch colleges institute quotas to keep you out. Do business in cities that forbid business on Sunday, when your sabbath falls on a Saturday, conveniently guaranteeing that there will be one day less per week you can make money than them. The lynchings are great too. And the fact that any grade school bully has something right on hand to abuse you for. And the fact that the dominant religion tends to view you either as the killers of the savior or somehow necessary to the return of their savior, but won't bother to try and understand you except in relation to your savior. Watch your sacred texts get burned. Your wives and daughters raped. Your beard and sidelocks shaved in the streets to humiliate you. Learn a trade, become a doctor, only to learn that hospitals won't hire Jewish doctors. Become a journalist. Go abroad to an Arab country. Get kidnapped. Have your kidnappers film you giving a speech about how you are a zionist, and then continue filming as they saw off your head. Become a landlord. If you aren't a good one, wait for people to ask, not, why is he a bad landlord, but, what is it about being a Jew that makes him a bad landlord.

This is being chosen? It's yours if you want it.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:22:57 -0800

their savior, rather.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:25:44 -0800

Sailormom, that is truly fascinating. Now, I must admit, my developmental personal prejudices about Jews and Judaism were been very much in line with this revised interpretation. I, and I assume some others, have been first attracted to Judaism in part because of the success and education represented by the Jews we've been exposed to. For myself, I'm talking about before age 10, here. Of course, not all Jews are educated, funny and well-to-do. It's a sharp, double edged sword that they (in my amateur estimation) have just that sort of image in contemporary US media.

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:36:33 -0800

Of course, not all Jews are educated, funny and well-to-do.

YOU LIE!!!

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:50:29 -0800

I was chosen, once.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:01:16 -0800

Shorter Astro Zombie: "next time couldn't you choose somebody else for a change?"

By: The Bellman

The Bellman — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:57:20 -0800

But the OP's question was: Are there other legally-intimidating measures I might take to let this dude know we mean business? The landlord's culture or religion have no relevance to answers to that question.

Rub him with bacon.

By: amro

amro — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:18:10 -0800

That would be assault.

By: amro

amro — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:19:58 -0800

Sorry, battery.

Damn, now they're going to come take my law degree away.

By: cowboy_sally

cowboy_sally — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:22:25 -0800

Oh, come on. Hasids don't live in some mythical Jewbania, and there's nothing especially unique about Brooklyn hasids ... If there is a problem with a hasidic landlord, it's because he's a landlord and perhaps a crook, not because he's a hasid and hasidim are a community that doesn't share the larger values of the outside community.

I'm not gonna argue that her statement wasn't bigoted, but I feel the need to challenge this statement. Something tells me you've never been to South Williamsburg, Brooklyn, where the poster lived. The Williamsburg hasids are Satmars, and they are profoundly different from other Hasidic dynasties. They're far more traditional and old-world, if you can imagine. (Seriously, there was an incident upstate a few weeks ago where a Satmar woman was systematically terrorized by her Satmar neighbors because she wore stockings without back seams, which is a no-no.) Women are generally not well-educated, and they don't work outside of the home once they're married. They are incredibly insular and suspicious of outsiders. They don't care about the welfare of outsiders. (And why should they? No one--save for politicians--really cares about their welfare, either.)

And the landlords who rent to people outside of the Satmar community mostly own crappy tenement buildings in poor neighborhoods. Hence the slumlord reputation. But then again, there are very few "professional" landlords in NYC who aren't slumlords. However, the poster was wrong in her implication that being Satmar makes them slumlords.

It doesn't. It just makes them maladaptive, backwards, anachronistic religious zealots.

By: The Bellman

The Bellman — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:23:44 -0800

You are right, amro. So go up to him and say "If it were not assize time, I would rub you with bacon!" [/law school joke]

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:35:51 -0800

"Well, in that case, enlighten me. What is the difference between perpetuating the worst, most hateful stereotypes about Jews (money grubbers) and perpetuating the worst, most hateful stereotype about blacks (all criminals)? Or any other minority group for that matter?

Reading responses like yours only serves to prove my initial argument at the top of the thread "that this is yet another example of some groups being off-limits to show prejudice against, while with others it's fair game""

Oh, fuck your dudgeon—The difference is that being Hasidim can influence the answers and is based on fact. That this Jew does, indeed, seem like a greedy slumlord. Blackness does not influence how you deal with deadbolts; being part of an insular New York community does influence how you deal with a landlord.

And if that's the worst Jewish stereotype you can find, you're not trying very hard.

As for Astro Zombie's long riff: How many of those things have happened to you? How many have even happened in your lifetime? The Daniel Perl execution's the only one I see that's contemporary, and that happened pretty fucking far from Minnesota. There are no genealogy laws here—you can stop being a Jew at any time, if it's such a horrible burden, but it's like listening to a fucking Baptist complain about the Romans and the Inquisition.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:43:01 -0800

MetaTalk: fuck your dudgeon.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:57:19 -0800

Oh, you're right, Klang. Thank God we live in a post antisemitism world, and all that bad stuff is a thousand years in the past.

Wait. No. That's not what I mean to say. What was it ... ?

Oh, yeah. You're a liar or an idiot.

By: The Gooch

The Gooch — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:06:23 -0800

The difference is that being Hasidim can influence the answers and is based on fact. That this Jew does, indeed, seem like a greedy slumlord. Blackness does not influence how you deal with deadbolts; being part of an insular New York community does influence how you deal with a landlord.

Agree that this Jew in particular seems like a greedy slumlord. Disagree that mentioning his Jewishness serves any purpose or provides answerers with any useful information in responding to the specific question. What I found troubling was it seemed clear to me (others are free to disagree with my interpretation) that his Hasidic affiliation was mentioned for the primary purpose of cluing in responders that they can assume certain negative characteristics about him based on his religious affiliation. I suppose you would call that righteous indignation on my part. I call it being slightly defensive against prejudice towards my religion. We may be stuck in a "you say tomAYto, I say tomAHto" situation here.

Actually, in some ways the worst offense the asker committed was to out-of-hand reject the idea of taking her landlord to court since that is really the only logical answer to her question, regardless of the ethnicity of her landlord.

By: milarepa

milarepa — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:10:27 -0800

As for Astro Zombie's long riff: How many of those things have happened to you? How many have even happened in your lifetime? The Daniel Perl execution's the only one I see that's contemporary, and that happened pretty fucking far from Minnesota. There are no genealogy laws here—you can stop being a Jew at any time, if it's such a horrible burden, but it's like listening to a fucking Baptist complain about the Romans and the Inquisition.

Sixty years of relative peace doesn't undo many more years of segregation and hatred. And sure, I haven't personally had to flee in the middle of the night to avoid being killed (only my relatives), and I personally haven't been shoveled like garbage into a furnace (again, my relatives), but that doesn't mean it doesn't or shouldn't shape my world view.

Shit, things are rosy for you, and pretty good for me too, but I'll be surprised if I don't have to flee for the border in the thick of night before I die. And you know what? I have a pretty good basis for this world view--I wager a hell of a lot better basis for the one you are trying to foster off on us. It's not the fucking Romans, it's our fucking grandmothers and aunts and brothers.

I should have known better than to come in this thread.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:18:58 -0800

Nothing to worry about, milarepa. According to Klang, the cure for antisemitism is for Jews to stop being Jews.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:34:25 -0800

you can stop being a Jew at any time, if it's such a horrible burden,

not according to the jews. sure, you can call yourself an atheist, but you're still a jew. moreover, anti-semites don't really accept "it's ok, I'm agnostic!" either. they still think you're a jew.

How many have even happened in your lifetime?

You're... you mean... you can't... dude. THE MIDDLE EAST. it's a big anti-jew fest out there. you haven't noticed?

but for real, it seriously depends on a lot of things. for what it's worth, I've never had anybody treat me poorly for being half-jewish. that might be because I look more italian than jewish, I don't know. on the other hand, one of my closest friends comes from a non-jewish family and recalls vividly the time when his aunt said how surprised she was to find out that jews don't have horns. the aunt grew up in the very deep south.

another friend of mine went to washington state to see his girlfriend's family. maybe near spokane? I don't remember specifically. when he was introduced they said "ooh! your name's [insert italian last name]! how exotic! so you're an eye-talian! ooh lala!" I wish I were exaggerating. but the worst part is when he said "and this is my friend Dan Goldstein." (name altered for the telling, but similar.) they went "... huh." not so much as a nice to meet you or a handshake.

when I was a kid I grew up in an exceptionally wealthy long island neighborhood. it happens to be that I never tried to join any of the country clubs out there, but a number of the other jewish kids in the neighborhood let me know which ones wouldn't accept them, or me, because we were jewish.

now, I'm not trying to use any of this to make a point about the askme in question. I'm just saying that, yes, after thousands of years there's still prejudice if you know where to look, and yes it does happen in people's backyards, not just in concentration camps. Hell, just ask Professor Griff.

By: cowboy_sally

cowboy_sally — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:37:34 -0800

Shit, things are rosy for you, and pretty good for me too, but I'll be surprised if I don't have to flee for the border in the thick of night before I die.

Wait a minute. Do you honestly believe that? You really think you're going to be driven out of the United States--out of New York City--because you're Jewish? Rest assured, there are plenty of folks who will be rounded up before you are. There must be at least a 30-year backlog.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:47:34 -0800

There are no genealogy laws here—you can stop being a Jew at any time, if it's such a horrible burden

It's not a burden, per se, and your words above read as ignorant or at least distastefully flippant (however, I don't religion bash, and that is a pretty normal behavior around here). I assume you've never participated in a Passover Seder. That ritual demonstrates well how persecution and suffering are important to Jews. Whatever degree of literal persecution of Jews occurs or occurred, the "chosen people" mantle is a rather beautiful and ancient reminder of god-given strength and grace, in the right hands. The literalities of persecution are continual reminders of the nature of and connection to God.

And, no you cannot stop being a Jew to avoid anti-Semitism.

By: amro

amro — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:48:08 -0800

cowboy_sally, when you look at Jewish history, nothing seems impossible. And as milarepa said, the murder of one's relatives for their religion (or in my grandfather's case, the escape from Russia in a wooden wardrobe) does tend to shape your world view, and the views and fears that are instilled in you.

By: craichead

craichead — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:51:03 -0800

There are no genealogy laws here—you can stop being a Jew at any time

Ick. That's just unacceptable, as far as I'm concerned. You think antisemitism is acceptable because Jews can just stop being Jews? On what planet is that not fucking repulsive?

I have to stop reading this kind of thread. The bigotry here makes me wonder if I really want to be a part of this community.

By: Justinian

Justinian — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:57:37 -0800

Yes, because one guy = THE COMMUNITY.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:01:41 -0800

"Disagree that mentioning his Jewishness serves any purpose or provides answerers with any useful information in responding to the specific question."

IT'S NOT HIS JEWISHNESS. It's not his Jewishness any more than dealing with Mormon separatists is about their Christianity. See Cowboy Sally's comment.

"Oh, you're right, Klang. Thank God we live in a post antisemitism world, and all that bad stuff is a thousand years in the past."

Ah, so it's that you have no fucking sense of proportion at all. Of course calling someone a Shylock is THE EXACT SAME THING AS THE HOLOCAUST. Or Hamas.

"Nothing to worry about, milarepa. According to Klang, the cure for antisemitism is for Jews to stop being Jews."

Since you have a choice to be Jewish or not, and since it's such a terrible fucking burden on you, there must be some reward for remaining Jewish, otherwise why? I mean, my comment was in response to your fucking third-rate Catskills dirge about being the "Chosen People." If it's so terrible, quit—or admit that it's not so fucking terrible to be a Jew.

"I'm just saying that, yes, after thousands of years there's still prejudice if you know where to look, and yes it does happen in people's backyards, not just in concentration camps. Hell, just ask Professor Griff."

Yeah, and there are still plenty of Jews who hate the schwartzes. Or the Arabs. But to sit in America and deny that there's some pretty heavy cultural chauvinism implied in being the "Chosen People," or to whine about suffering "genocide" AS IF IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO YOU is chutzpah, and pretending that Jewishness is somehow the crux of this issue, or a magical shield from cultural criticism is flat-out bullshit.

By: cowboy_sally

cowboy_sally — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:01:42 -0800

the murder of one's relatives for their religion (or in my grandfather's case, the escape from Russia in a wooden wardrobe) does tend to shape your world view, and the views and fears that are instilled in you.

I understand what you're saying. But it's still insane--or at the very least really unhealthy--to believe that there will be a Jewish pogrom in the United States.

By: small_ruminant

small_ruminant — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:04:20 -0800

There are no genealogy laws here—you can stop being a Jew at any time.

Wow. I can't believe you wrote that. And if you think anti-Semitism is ancient history, you haven't been around much.

However, most of the Jews I'm around do have a different relationship to money than I grew up with. I end up being the cultural (WASP-Jew) translator sometimes. (No, Boss, she really can't renegotiate her tithe to the church, even if she's really poor.)

This is not so say the OP isn't completely out of line in her question. Handled differently, though, I think mentioning her landlord's Hasidism (or Satmarism? cowboy_sally, that is so interesting!) would be relevant information. If nothing else, it might enable some of us translators to suggest better communication techniques. Though since I'd never even heard of Satmars, I would not be one of the translators able to help.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:06:24 -0800

Klang, do I really need to make a list of antisemitic events I have personally experienced in my lifetime for you to believe it is an issue?

Oh, fuck it. I don't know if you are aware of it, but minimizing someone's pain so that you can defend someone's question about whether being a hasid makes someone a crooked landlord? Not okay.

And it is his Jewishness. The trouble here is that you don't get that fact.

By: timeistight

timeistight — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:07:04 -0800

Thanks for deleting that question, mathowie.

Maybe you could close this thread before it gets any uglier.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:12:11 -0800

You're embarassing yourself with your shallow understanding of the spiritual significane of the "chosen people" thing, and tossing out yiddish and catskills sterotypes isn't gonna help. If you're just anti-"chosen people" because you're anti-religion, fine, but this isn't really the best thread to be anti-Judaism.

By: caddis

caddis — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:15:49 -0800

agreed. Klang, your best course of action right now is to just walk away from this thread without a further comment.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:17:48 -0800

Can I get some kind of shiksa biscuit for this, btw?

By: amro

amro — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:18:19 -0800

I assume you've never participated in a Passover Seder. That ritual demonstrates well how persecution and suffering are important to Jews.

Pretty much every Jewish holiday can be summed up with the quip, "They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat!"

And that actually makes me proud. If it wasn't for some pretty tough people that came before me, I wouldn't be here.

By: cowboy_sally

cowboy_sally — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:20:12 -0800

Can I get some kind of shiksa biscuit for this, btw?

If you stick around a few more hours, you could be the shabbos goy!

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:23:10 -0800

"Ick. That's just unacceptable, as far as I'm concerned. You think antisemitism is acceptable because Jews can just stop being Jews? On what planet is that not fucking repulsive?

I have to stop reading this kind of thread. The bigotry here makes me wonder if I really want to be a part of this community."

Right, that's exactly what I said—All anti-semitism is totally acceptable because Jews can quit being Jews at any time. That's identical to saying that because being Jewish is a choice in America that there must be some reason to keep identifying as Jewish aside from all the fun persecution times. If you can't fucking parse the difference there, well, yeah, I gotta say that I won't miss you.

"That ritual demonstrates well how persecution and suffering are important to Jews."

You're right—I haven't participated in one. But EVERY SINGLE MAJOR RELIGION, and MOST CULTURAL GROUPS have a tradition of persecution that's important to them. Seriously, that's half of the modern Evangelical movement—that Christians are oppressed and need to push back to secure their cultural values. I was serious about the Baptists, there's a litany of persecution of Baptists going back through Christian history. That's pretty much the sole talking point of Osama Bin Laden, that Muslims are oppressed by the West, along with a list of significant and legitimate grievances.

And it's a common rhetorical technique to deflect legitimate critiques and discussion of anti-modernist cultural traditions, to bring up that tradition of persecution. I help moderate a board for local events back in Ann Arbor (I know, I know, I've moved), and there are routine clashes between ultra-Zionists and pro-Palestinian groups, and again and again I see the pro-Palestinian folks toss together a passel of legitimate complaints, and then add on some stupid anti-Jewish (Semitic's too broad) bullshit, and the Zionists use that to dismiss all of the criticism of Zionism, usually in a context of historicalized oppression.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:23:27 -0800

Elvis was a shabbos goy. True story.

Also, his maternal grandmother was Jewish. So ELvis? A Jew who was his own shabbos goy.

By: The Gooch

The Gooch — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:24:49 -0800

Can I get some kind of shiksa biscuit for this, btw?

Sure

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:26:27 -0800

And it's a common rhetorical technique to deflect legitimate critiques and discussion of anti-modernist cultural traditions, to bring up that tradition of persecution.

So what was the legitimate critique here? What was the marvelous comment about Jews that so desperately needed saying that you had to rush in to defend it by reminding Jews that they can stop being Jews at any time and that they are a bunch of whiners who haven't been oppressed and should just shut up about it?

Because I can't find it.

By: Blazecock Pileon

Blazecock Pileon — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:29:47 -0800

Shit, things are rosy for you, and pretty good for me too, but I'll be surprised if I don't have to flee for the border in the thick of night before I die.

Seriously: If anything happens, they'll come for the gays and Muslims before any Jews are rounded up. Dominionists are pretty clear about Jews being needed for the end times.

By: cowboy_sally

cowboy_sally — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:30:39 -0800

Elvis was a shabbos goy? That's the best bit of Elvis trivia ever.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:35:23 -0800

"So what was the legitimate critique here? What was the marvelous comment about Jews that so desperately needed saying that you had to rush in to defend it by reminding Jews that they can stop being Jews at any time and that they are a bunch of whiners who haven't been oppressed and should just shut up about it?

Because I can't find it."

That's surprising, because you found all sorts of other bullshit that wasn't there.

I mean, where did I say that Jews haven't been oppressed?

And the legitimate point is that the landlord's cultural background can be relevant to the answers the asker is given. Care to disagree some more by talking about that time you watched your sacred texts burned or your daughters raped? I mean, since those things happened to you and are directly relevant.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:35:44 -0800

Klang, I think the difference is the extent to which Jews believe their oppression comes (indirectly) from God, and revere it accordingly. It's not just kvetching, there's pride and awe and lots of other nuances. Pick up a haggadah sometime. Zionists are a subgroup like Evangelicals, imo, and I don't understand them so I won't try to analyze them.

By: milarepa

milarepa — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:35:46 -0800

whine about suffering "genocide" AS IF IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO YOU is chutzpah,

Would you tell someone to stop "whining" about their father or grandmother being sold down the river before they were born?

"Being sold down the river as a piece of meat didn't happen to you, so stop whining."

By: milarepa

milarepa — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:37:57 -0800

Seriously: If anything happens, they'll come for the gays and Muslims before any Jews are rounded up. Dominionists are pretty clear about Jews being needed for the end times.

Others being rounded up doesn't make me feel much better.

Besides, once the rounding begins, I suspect they'll throw the jews on for good measure.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:40:45 -0800

Fuck off, Klang. You can be as disingenuous as you like, but it's becoming obvious to everyone here that the issue is that you have a problem with the Jews, thanks, in part, to your relentless need to minimize two thousand years of suffering.

And the legitimate point is that the landlord's cultural background can be relevant to the answers the asker is given.

That's not a point. That's not a critique of hasidism. That's a question. And it's a question with an easy answer: Not in this case. Thank God you're here, man; without you hollering and panting about how contemporary Jews should just shut the fuck up about the Holocaust already, and stop clogging discussions of Israel with nonsensical braying about antisemitism, we would never have gotten to that answer.

By: cowboy_sally

cowboy_sally — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:42:23 -0800

Besides, once the rounding begins, I suspect they'll throw the jews on for good measure.

I still can't tell if you're joking or not.

By: The Gooch

The Gooch — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:45:30 -0800

And it's a common rhetorical technique to deflect legitimate critiques and discussion of anti-modernist cultural traditions, to bring up that tradition of persecution.

This may (or may not be) be a valid point, but it's also a castle in the air since the question in question was not a "legitimate critique() and discussion of anti-modernist cultural traditions". It was a question about a sleazy landlord that brought up his religious affiliation for what appears to be no other practical purpose other than to put forth the idea that certain negative stereotypes can be assumed about the landlord solely because he's a Hasidic Jew.

AskMe is regularly filled with variations on the "my landlord is trying to screw me out of my deposit what should I do"-type questions. The answer, invariably, is some form of "research your local tenancy laws so you can write an appropriate letter of protest and/or take him/her to small claims court". This question is no different since my understanding is that your rights as a tenant don't vary depending on the religious affiliation of your landlord. Which is why trying to bring up the landlord's religion in a negative way was not only in poor form, but pointless.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:46:02 -0800

I don't think that's meant as a joke. I don't think the Jews are going to be kicked out of New York, but, then, Berlin was once really good for the Jews.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:48:13 -0800

Anyway, is their really a reason for keeping this thread open at this point. Unless people enjoy watching me and Klang argue, which, frankly, even I'm sick of?

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:51:39 -0800

because being Jewish is a choice in America

for real, it's not. yes, a person can convert INTO judaism, but if you ask a rabbi they'll tell you: if your mother is jewish you're jewish whether you like it or not. I'm half roman catholic by geneology on my father's side, I'm agnostic by practice and my mom's only jewish by ADOPTION and I'm still jewish. I went and asked. no choice.

By: koeselitz

koeselitz — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:53:30 -0800

craichead: You think antisemitism is acceptable because Jews can just stop being Jews? On what planet is that not fucking repulsive? I have to stop reading this kind of thread. The bigotry here makes me wonder if I really want to be a part of this community.

(1) Reread. The only person you could even begin to have a problem with her is klangklangston, and everybody else is piling onto him. "The bigotry here" is in your head.

(2) Look, I dislike what klang said as much as anybody, but I think it's pretty clear that he's obviously not saying that "antisemitism is acceptable because Jews can just stop being Jews." That's a blatant misreading. Please go back up and look. What klang said was bad because it might be open to that interpretation, but my god, how can you get that out of what he's said here?

(3) These are actually all interesting issues, with some detachment. For example, even if it isn't his Jewishness, as klang claims, is it fine because it's his Hasidism? Also:

Ambrosia Voyeur: And, no you cannot stop being a Jew to avoid anti-Semitism.

You could try renouncing your religious Jewishness to avoid anti-semitism. In fact, Spinoza mentions briefly in his Theologico-Political Treatise that, if the Jews ever throw off the bonds of their emasculating religion, they could have their own nationhood and be free. One could make an experiment of a nation of secular Jews, and see if that ended the hatred against the Jews. My feeling is that it wouldn't work.

By: Blazecock Pileon

Blazecock Pileon — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:57:12 -0800

I don't think the Jews are going to be kicked out of New York, but, then, Berlin was once really good for the Jews.

Of the nuts running the US, the ones to worry about are really not interested in coming after America's Jewish, when there are family-destroyin', butt-pokin' perverts and brown-skinned, towel-wearin' terrarists to deal with. And remember that the Final Solution came after more than just European Jews — gays, gypsies, mentally and physically disabled, and political prisoners were also rounded up and murdered. Just a little perspective may be useful, here, for understanding klang's point.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:00:40 -0800

Oh, I remember that plenty of others were killed during the Holocaust. What was Klang's point again? That contemporary gays, gypsies, mentally and physically disabled, and political prisoners should also stop complaining?

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:00:46 -0800

There are no genealogy laws here—you can stop being a Jew at any time, if it's such a horrible burden...

That's probably the most ignorant statement I've read all week. A look at something like Soviet history should clear that misconception right up.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:01:30 -0800

Oh, wait, with the exception of political prisoners, none of the others can stop being what they are, so they have a right to complain. Jews, in the meanwhile ... ?

By: milarepa

milarepa — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:07:32 -0800

Like I said, other's being rounded up should never be a source of comfort.

Frankly, that's my personal gripe with the jews...they don't care about other people's suffering. They should know better by now.

By: milarepa

milarepa — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:08:36 -0800

meant to say, they don't care enough. Still probably abrasive.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:09:26 -0800

"Would you tell someone to stop "whining" about their father or grandmother being sold down the river before they were born?

"Being sold down the river as a piece of meat didn't happen to you, so stop whining.""

I would tell someone who feels that what blacks still face, assimilation wise, is equal to what the Jews face today that they have no sense of perspective. Further, were we stuck in a policy discussion, I'd ask what they wanted now. Blacks are still more likely to end up in prison than whites. Are Jews? Blacks are still paid less than whites. Are Jews? Do Jews have trouble getting an equal education? Those are social problems that can be worked on—that someone's grandmother was sold down the river isn't.

And yes, if that was all they could talk about, I'd tell them to stop whining.

"Klang, I think the difference is the extent to which Jews believe their oppression comes (indirectly) from God, and revere it accordingly. It's not just kvetching, there's pride and awe and lots of other nuances."

I'm totally willing to accept nuance on this as distinguishing it from the history of persecution faced by various Christian sects, though I'd point out that a lot of the Christian rhetoric of persecution flows from that Hebrew narrative (as does the Muslim rhetoric)—but the persecution of Baptists or Universalists or any other of a long line of denominations isn't just about kvetching either. It's a legitimate part of their faith, as much as faith can have legitimate traditions of suffering. How that is articulated today is different, and I'd be interested in learning more, but that tradition of suffering doesn't make it more legitimate or more deserving of protection outside concerns of majoritarianism.

"Fuck off, Klang. You can be as disingenuous as you like, but it's becoming obvious to everyone here that the issue is that you have a problem with the Jews, thanks, in part, to your relentless need to minimize two thousand years of suffering."

Yeah, that's it—I hate the Jews. I eat their babies with Matzo meal on Christmas day, because I'm a German and the only way we relate to Jews is through the Holocaust. But today, I find out at least one Jewish miracle—You're 2000 years old, and have suffered the entire time! That's amazing! And all of that for no reward, no reason, no positive that you can articulate—because I asked you more than fucking once. The only thing you seem to get out of it is the ability to complain and to call other people anti-Semitic.

"That's not a point. That's not a critique of hasidism. That's a question. And it's a question with an easy answer: Not in this case. Thank God you're here, man; without you hollering and panting about how contemporary Jews should just shut the fuck up about the Holocaust already, and stop clogging discussions of Israel with nonsensical braying about antisemitism, we would never have gotten to that answer."

An easy answer, but not a right answer. I guess if being right was more important to you than complaining about the terrible trials and tribulations that you've suffered—again, you saw your sacred texts burned and your daughters raped? That must have been a hell of a trip, man. You wouldn't be exaggerating to make your case seem stronger, because that'd be fucking disingenuous, something you accused me of being. But hey, without you here, I wouldn't know that you, not Jews, could be a fucking whiny, hypocritical idiot.

Oh, but wait, I hate all Jews. So I guess they're all like you.

"It was a question about a sleazy landlord that brought up his religious affiliation for what appears to be no other practical purpose other than to put forth the idea that certain negative stereotypes can be assumed about the landlord solely because he's a Hasidic Jew."

And this is where I'm fine with agreeing to disagree—there is cultural baggage there unique to the geography and community which has been brought up clumsily by the asker. Given that they didn't want to go to court, that information IS relevant. But I don't disagree that going to court is their best option.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:17:31 -0800

I just went back and reread the original AskMe question. The asker wasn't even asking if there is some cultural issue that should be addressed. The comment was "This is just your run-of-the-mill Hasidic slumlord who isn't affiliated with a Real Estate corp or anything of the sort, so I can't attack his superiors."

Either the fact that the Landlord is Hasidic is entirely incidental to the discussion and should be left out, or the poster is implying that Hasids are, by virtue of being Hasids, slumlords. There is no question in there. There is no question Klang is demanding we respect.

So here are the fallacies that followed from this:

Jews can stop being Jews any time they want.
Contemporary Jews aren't really affected by antisemitism.
Jews follow some sort of strange Jewish law that might contravene American business law.
Hasids are as different from other Jews, and other Americans as, say, the Japanese are from Americans. Alternately: They're like the Amish.
Jews use charges of antisemitism to silence legitimate criticism -- look at message boards that discuss issues in Israel.

Frankly, if there were as many Jews on MnSpeak as their are women, I would expect that these would create as much of a blow up as the Boy Zone discussion. They aren't unique to this thread -- hell, it's almost impossible to have a discussion about antisemitism without some jackass popping his head in and shouting "Israel! Israel! You're silencing criticisms with your phony claims of antisemitism," whether the thread is about Israel or, as in this case, isn't.

It would be nice if the moderators would take this discussion as seriously as they do the boyzone one. Trust me, this sort of behavior is just as alienating for Jews and relentless boorish male behavior is for women.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:17:38 -0800

Maybe you could close this thread before it gets any uglier.

Agreed. And klang, my friend, you're not coming off at all well here. Best to quit before you get any further behind. And could you please start using itals for quoting other comments instead of those fershlugginer quote marks?

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:17:46 -0800

Could we learn more about your heritage, klangklangston? I was going to go with "Spoiled White Brat Lectures Minorities on Oppression," but I wanted to make sure I got it right.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:18:04 -0800

"for real, it's not. yes, a person can convert INTO judaism, but if you ask a rabbi they'll tell you: if your mother is jewish you're jewish whether you like it or not. I'm half roman catholic by geneology on my father's side, I'm agnostic by practice and my mom's only jewish by ADOPTION and I'm still jewish. I went and asked. no choice."

Is it the Jews that are persecuting you? Is it your rabbi?

Here's how you stop being Jewish—You stop hewing to the cultural traditions, you distance yourself from the community, you (if you want to be thorough and have a Jewish name) change your name.

To clarify, I'm not saying that people should stop being Jewish, or that the should feel that they should have to stop being Jewish. I'm saying that you can, effectively, stop being Jewish. That it's a constructed identity without real outside markers, whereas someone can't just stop being black, Michael Jackson to the contrary. Hell, you can make a quasi-serious argument that Hitler stopped being Jewish, despite ancestry.

By: kosem

kosem — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:19:42 -0800

Gevalt. And not in the funny or ironic way.

Zionists are a subgroup like Evangelicals, imo, and I don't understand them so I won't try to analyze them.

Untrue. People have just taken the word "Zionism" and assumed that it means "horrific racist essentialist right wing neoconservative maniacal ideology that utterly fails to understand that the Palestinians have rights, too." That is a slander and a misunderstanding. I'm a Jew, a Zionist and pretty well committed to getting to a Palestinian homeland and to justice. There are a lot of us. There are also Zionists who meet your description, with whom I have a major problem. Like most things people don't know much about, it's a little more complex than all that. A long history of invective and reduction have turned it into a buzzword requiring disclaimer.

By: milarepa

milarepa — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:20:13 -0800

I would tell someone who feels that what blacks still face, assimilation wise, is equal to what the Jews face today that they have no sense of perspective. Further, were we stuck in a policy discussion, I'd ask what they wanted now. Blacks are still more likely to end up in prison than whites. Are Jews? Blacks are still paid less than whites. Are Jews? Do Jews have trouble getting an equal education? Those are social problems that can be worked on—that someone's grandmother was sold down the river isn't.

And yes, if that was all they could talk about, I'd tell them to stop whining.

My point was not that jews face the same problems assimilation wise, and I think you know that. My point was that things that don't happen directly to you can still affect your life and how you view the world.

By: Blazecock Pileon

Blazecock Pileon — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:21:51 -0800

That contemporary gays, gypsies, mentally and physically disabled, and political prisoners should also stop complaining?

Astro Zombie, I'm really trying to figure out your point, from some of your comments in this thread. You seem to be all over the place, mostly out of some perceived slights.

You seem to be saying that Jews are being persecuted now, as a matter of course, or are just a few minutes away from being rounded up. I can tell you that there are a lot of minorities that have it much, much worse than Jewish-Americans: citizens who are oppressed by numerous legal, religious and cultural edicts. Jews aren't refused jobs for being Jewish. Jews aren't being murdered, and then get defended with "Jew panic" defenses. Jews aren't kicked out of their houses for being Jewish. Jews aren't dragged away to Gitmo for being Jewish.

From my readings and conversations about history and culture, I more than get it that there is a basis for holding a persecution complex, but you gaining a little perspective for how things are at this point in time might be, perhaps, helpful for seeing where other human beings might be coming from on the subject matter.