Comments on: LOLMIDGETS

LOLMIDGETS

LordSludge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:01:49 -0800

LOLMIDGETS I don't have a personal dog in this fight, but this is really distasteful: Oh, maybe you think it’s funny when a little person’s penis gets glued to a vaccum cleaner or a Mexican midget gets eaten by a pelican or a hippo eats a dwarf... Huh huh.. Didja hear the one about the nigger and the wood chipper LOLNOTRACISTCUZCHAPELLEUSESNIGGERTOO!?one! tkch rist, Smedleyman, you know better than this. Let's make this brief.

By: miss lynnster

miss lynnster — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:09:48 -0800

I wish there was some way I could've bet money on this MeTa being written. 'Cuz I woulda totally won so much money.

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:10:10 -0800

We can make it brief by not getting started.

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:10:16 -0800

And tkchrist, if truly you didn't know that "midget" is offensive, a simple "my bad, I didn't realize that term was offensive" rather than a pre-emptive meltdown would suffice. I already pointed out the difference between AZ's post (mildly offensive, IMO, but at least he offered an explanation) and this. Sorry if you missed that.

By: miss lynnster

miss lynnster — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:12:33 -0800

As long as I'm here, I would like to continue my public apology to the dude from Willow, though.
I know, it's 20 years late. But everybody needs a hug.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:15:47 -0800

I think it's all right to give short shrift to the post, but let's not belittle the poster.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:17:39 -0800

you know, I didn't know midget is considered a slur and no longer used medically. I just found that out this very instant when I checked it on wikipedia. I even did a high school health class report on the difference between midgets and dwarves back in the day. I had no idea. They need to have memos for that shit.

also, overblown comparisons to using the N word help nobody. Either your argument can stand on its own merits or it can't.

for instance: "potatoes are usually brown and smell like the dirt they were grown in."

anyone can then say "that's fucked up! why don't you try replacing potatoes with the n word and see what you think then!" that doesn't mean it's wrong to say potatoes. please argue against the post in question without making logically fallacious comparisons. thanks both in advance and in retrospect.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:18:37 -0800

“Smedleyman, you know better than this. Let's make this brief.”

Ok. I meant no offense. My mistake. Suggestion?

By: WPW

WPW — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:18:47 -0800

IANALP, but I think the term now preferred by the group in question is "little people", but then I'm getting that from an old episode of CSI so who knows.

Some years ago, I worked for a magazine that dealt with housing and homelessness. Being social care types, the readership were a highly PC bunch. One Hallowe'en, we had reason to include a little picture of the Wicked Witch from the film the Wizard of Oz. I remember someone - it might have been me - saying "it's not as if we'll get any irate letters from real Witches".

We totally got a letter from someone claiming to be a real Witch. And it was irate.

You know, when I started writing this story I could have sworn there was a moral to it, but now it eludes me. You may resume your flambe.

By: desjardins

desjardins — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:25:37 -0800

The difference between this post and AZ's post is that AZ's post was about actors who happen to be little people. This post is about the inevitability of little people engaging in criminal behavior (and the lulz that apparently ensue). If you can't see the difference, then I don't know what to say.

By: dersins

dersins — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:27:12 -0800

LOLMIDGETS

Very true.

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:29:12 -0800

shmegegge: anyone can then say "that's fucked up! why don't you try replacing potatoes with the n word and see what you think then!" that doesn't mean it's wrong to say potatoes.

Except that "potatoes" is not an offensive term for a class of people, as in "midget" and as in "nigger".

Smedleyman: Ok. I meant no offense. My mistake. Suggestion?

Ummm, you were pretty much pointing and laughing at little people (because they're LITTLE, SEE???) while using an insulting term. Very inappropriate. But since you ask, I suggest apologizing, mailing the mods to strike the post, and let's lock/delete this call-out thread and forget the whole thing.

By: bondcliff

bondcliff — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:29:35 -0800

I think the term now preferred by the group in question is "little people"

Despite the protests of both Fisher and Price.

By: blue_beetle

blue_beetle — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:34:39 -0800

"In some circles, a midget is the term used for a proportionate dwarf. However, the term has fallen into disfavor and is considered offensive by most people of short stature. The term dates back to 1865, the height of the "freak show" era, and was generally applied only to short-statured persons who were displayed for public amusement, which is why it is considered so unacceptable today.

Such terms as dwarf, little person, LP, and person of short stature are all acceptable, but most people would rather be referred to by their name than by a label." (source)

By: Mister_A

Mister_A — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:46:48 -0800

Sod off ye tossers.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:51:00 -0800

Except that "potatoes" is not an offensive term for a class of people, as in "midget" and as in "nigger".

Yes, but midget (being offensive) doesn't have to be compared to other slurs to be seen as offensive. It being offensive in and of itself is enough. You do not need to make a comparison that doesn't prove anything to defend the position of not using the term.

By: jeffamaphone

jeffamaphone — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:53:16 -0800

fuck.

By: Jody Tresidder

Jody Tresidder — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:53:57 -0800

I thought miss lynnster's story was adorably awkward.
A good thing to come out of an awkward post.

By: HuronBob

HuronBob — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:02:01 -0800

Let's look at it this way... replace all references to little people (no matter what term you use) to "normal sized white people" and would this be a post at all? If not, then isn't the whole point to make fun of/laugh at people because they are not tall?

As to the solution...what LordSludge said...

By: roll truck roll

roll truck roll — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:02:32 -0800

Yeah, LordSludge, the n-word comparison is a pretty good way to get yourself not taken seriously. Any comparison will strike a lot of people as extremely ignorant.

And maybe you think that it's bad that most people will see you as ignorant for using the n-word in that way. Fine, that's a discussion to have in another place. Here, it's nothing but a self-Godwin.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:04:44 -0800

“Ummm, you were pretty much pointing and laughing at little people (because they're LITTLE, SEE???) while using an insulting term. Very inappropriate.”

Funny. I’d’ve thought saying “my mistake” was an apology. Hm.

My reasoning:
I think it’s interesting that little people were hiding in luggage and stealing from people on Swedish trains. So I decided to post that.

I found that it had been done before and there were gangs of folks of small stature in Malaysia robbing people.
This made me consider the Randy Newman song - which I titled with a Swedish chef accent.
I thought the ‘allaboutmidgets’ site was ridiculous - and I mean that term precisely - and expanded on the theme of those folks under bizarre and/or exploitive circumstances (in the ‘small time gangsters’ link from the star the term ‘midget’ is used, so I reiterated it, where I might have balked in just looking at the ‘allaboutmidgets’ site - I figure it’s a newspaper so it’s more authoritative - and it’s right there if you read it ‘midgets ’ in the newspaper. Y’know who else prints the term? The New. York. Times. And I remember reading it in there. If it’s really offensive, I wouldn’t figure they’d print it even in quote, I don’t see them reprinting profanity or other racial slurs - but WTF do I know?)

The midgets vs centenarians site is reflective of the many ‘vs’ contests we’ve seen on metafilter (eg. 1 man vs. many many cats; bear vs. guy with knife, raptors, etc. etc.) so I posted that as well.

Whatever the actual result - it was meant to be fun in the sense of laughing at people (of whatever type) in odd circumstances, not in reviling or ridiculing anyone because of whatever their inherent traits. They’re people. They fuck up and get fucked up like anyone else, I figure. It didn’t come out that way, so, as I said, my mistake. Because that’s not how - obviously - it came off to some folks.

But - since we’re bringing it up on the level of ‘niggers’ (and y’all know how much I hate them, amirite!? I’m such a racist that I hate my own mixed ethnicity kids, burn a cross on my own damn lawn) in such an accusitory manner, that it was meant out of malice instead of ignorance - then I’m going to have to say go fuck yourself and this PC shit and take a walk.

I really have a lot of work to do anyway.

C-ya.

By: goo

goo — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:11:16 -0800

replace all references to little people (no matter what term you use) to "normal sized white people" and would this be a post at all?

Maybe if normal sized white people were found to have been hiding in suitcases and stealing stuff.

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:19:44 -0800

shmegegge: Yes, but midget (being offensive) doesn't have to be compared to other slurs to be seen as offensive. It being offensive in and of itself is enough. You do not need to make a comparison that doesn't prove anything to defend the position of not using the term.

roll truck roll: [T]he n-word comparison is a pretty good way to get yourself not taken seriously.

Lots of folks don't know that the term "midget" is offensive. Or they don't believe that it is. Or they know, but they don't care. The n-bomb was an attempt to get through to those people, to get them to go "OH. Oooooooh. I *get* it now. My bad."

Wishful thinking, probably.

By: yhbc

yhbc — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:23:48 -0800

First they came for the little people, and I didn't speak out; because their little arms and legs flailing around when they were being carried off was actually pretty darn funny.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:25:26 -0800

For fuck's sake, I read the FPP and thought it was a citation of some midgety humor from a recent movie, or something, and just walked on by, uninterested. Those words are YOUR creative genius, Smedleyman? Faugh. Funny, maybe, but really heinous. Delete it.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:26:56 -0800

I thought only Dirty Midgets was offensive? Who knew?

Oh that's right. Fucking pretty much EVERYBODY.

But please go ahead and keep arguing with yourself in claiming I (or anybody is) am some how anti-dwarf or what ever the hell it is your doing.

So Lord sludge. Why didn't you do this call out to AZ on the 21st? Hmmmm?

By: everichon

everichon — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:26:56 -0800

Obligatory Poe story.

By: HuronBob

HuronBob — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:28:39 -0800

"Maybe if normal sized white people were found to have been hiding in suitcases and stealing stuff."

let me try one last time... had there been ONE link to the story about the suitcases... I would have thought..."oh, another fark worthy post"...but with multiple links to bad sites about little people, along with references to glue and a penis, it became, as noted, lollittlepeople.........

ya know, I'm thinking there was probably no ill intent in the original ffp... perhaps just not thought through enough...

I've got work to do too.... bye ya'll...

By: hermitosis

hermitosis — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:30:41 -0800

The n-bomb was an attempt to get through to those people

Sort of like using a shotgun to hunt mice in your living room, IMO.

By: dirtynumbangelboy

dirtynumbangelboy — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:30:49 -0800

"but most people would rather be referred to by their name than by a label"

Bears repeating, I think.

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:31:46 -0800

I removed the FPP for what it's worth. Some of those links were interesting, but the LOLframing was really sort of icky and the thread was a trainwreck.

By: ssg

ssg — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:32:13 -0800

No matter how "ridiculous" you find the site, it is pretty hard to interpret linking (with the word "funny" no less) to a blog titled "Funny Midget Pics - All About Little Midgets: Funny pictures and news about midgets, dwarfs and little people" as anything other than LOLMIDGETS. Linking to a picture of a little person in biker garb for no good reason is more of the same.

Here is another handy guideline if a site devoted to making fun of people doesn't trip your crappy link alarm: If the site in question has porn ads with spelling errors, it probably isn't the best of the web.

By: xmutex

xmutex — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:34:29 -0800

Ermmm when did midget become an offensive word for a class of people? I have such trouble keeping up with the hypersensitivity of the world these days.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:35:39 -0800

If the site in question has porn ads with spelling errors, it probably isn't the best of the web.

I was wondering what a "PINIS" was.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:40:12 -0800

If you don't get how midget is, and always has been as offensive as cripple, faggot, or the "n-word," you are, well, a retard.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:40:24 -0800

Lots of folks don't know that the term "midget" is offensive. Or they don't believe that it is. Or they know, but they don't care. The n-bomb was an attempt to get through to those people, to get them to go "OH. Oooooooh. I *get* it now. My bad."

I get that, I'm just saying you're shooting yourself in the foot because you're actually getting those people to go "Oh for fuck's sake, fuck off and stop comparing me to a racist." It's self defeating and unnecessary. You're right about the post, but you're doing damage to your point. Frankly, it's a form of argumentation that gets thrown around a lot in meta, and I wish people would stop doing it. It's like every time someone says something someone else disagrees with the n bomb gets dropped like it wins every argument when in fact it doesn't win any.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:42:45 -0800

a retard.

Uhhh. What?

By: Alvy Ampersand

Alvy Ampersand — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:47:33 -0800

So Lord sludge. Why didn't you do this call out to AZ on the 21st? Hmmmm?

Maybe he didn't see it until you linked to it - regardless, LC responded to your gotcha! the first time you said it.

By: Alvy Ampersand

Alvy Ampersand — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:48:32 -0800

Whoops, LS.

I know a lot of Lords, okay? Hard to keep 'em straight sometimes.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:50:58 -0800

It's like every time someone says something someone else disagrees with the n bomb gets dropped like it wins every argument when in fact it doesn't win any.

What's even better is that NOBODY in the original thread said they didn't know.

Except ME.

BEING A SMART ASS.

Me. Who, BTW, me, also being the one who POINTED to it's use in AZ's thread (regardless of his explanation) knowing it was potentially offensive there, as well as in this last thread. The point was context of it's use by the posters (NOT the links). Which Lord Sludge seems to have missed in his mad rush to paint everybody as a bigot and, naturally, the inevitable obligatory racist.

But still I'm waiting for some more people to point out more racist and bigoted terms. I wonder if doing so gives an angel his wings?

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:51:34 -0800

If you don't get how midget is, and always has been as offensive as cripple, faggot, or the "n-word," you are, well, a retard.

it's my understanding that it has not always been offensive, and that it was, in fact, a medical term until recent history. recent history is, granted, decades ago apparently, but still. you should be a little more accurate with your sweeping judgements.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:52:09 -0800

Then he should have called out AZ then thus providing us all with this informative moral lesson and help us avoid THIS thread now.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:53:42 -0800

Maybe he didn't see it until you linked to it - regardless, LC responded to your gotcha! the first time you said it.

Yeah. And it was stupid hysterical response that missed the point entirely.

By: shakespeherian

shakespeherian — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:53:43 -0800

I find it mildly curious that people prefer the term 'n-word' to simply saying 'nigger,' since I doubt discussing the word itself with get you branded as racist.

Also if the point you're making is that 'midget' and 'faggot' and such-like are equally crude and offensive, why does no one say 'm-word' and 'f-word'?

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:54:53 -0800

because no one would know what they were talking about?

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:55:30 -0800

"Retard"is pretty offensive too. Because that is a derogatory word used for people with mental handicaps and birth defects. If you didn't know. Did you know. Because if you didn't then you must be a racist.

By: Catfry

Catfry — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:55:40 -0800

Is cripple an offensive word? I'm not an english speaker so there may be some meaning I'm unaware of.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:55:51 -0800

Sorry, feelin' my post-structuralist oats. *sigh* I mean that all those nicknames for groups of people which are associated with the era of their unchecked disempowerment need to be rendered flaccid, stat. Swords to ~~Plowshares~~ Silly String. And that doesn't mean now we get to use them to passive-aggressively lollerpopguild at the same groups they were meant to patronize, rather it means working to detourn the very idea of "an offensive word for a class of people." To me. I don't want to be overly strident, dark, or flip here without that intent being clear.

By: Catfry

Catfry — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:56:07 -0800

NATIVE english speaker.

By: cog_nate

cog_nate — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:56:16 -0800

tkchrist, you're such a ~~bastard~~ doubleplusungoodnik.

By: Catfry

Catfry — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:57:28 -0800

Wow, I totally forgot to refresh there. When do we get comment editing again?

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:58:15 -0800

because no one would know what they were talking about?

What? Sure they would. The M-word? The f-g-t word? In common usage by self righteous passive aggressives everywhere. [rolls eyes].

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:59:45 -0800

Whoa. There was something worse than the "Unions OR Corportations are the Devil, and so is Hillary Clinton" thread? I have so been painfully reading the wrong thread.

By: shakespeherian

shakespeherian — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:00:40 -0800

Tehanu: Where's that? I want to read a trainwreck thread!

By: Bookhouse

Bookhouse — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:01:02 -0800

Catfry -- It is out of fashion, yes. Disabled is the preferred term.

By: orthogonality

orthogonality — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:01:09 -0800

Ambrosia Voyeur writes "If you don't get how midget is, and always has been as offensive as cripple, faggot, or the 'n-word,' you are, well, a retard."

Well, that's just the problem. It hasn't "always" been considered offensive, just like at least some your other examples.

"Cripple" used to be a non-offensive descriptive. It's only in my lifetime it's become "offensive". The n-word began as descriptive. When I was a kid, "asian" people could still be called "oriental", and no disrespect was meant.

My great-grandmother was definitely not "a retard." (And frankly, I find casual use of "retard" to refer to people not of clinically subnormal intelligence to be offensive.)

A registered nurse and later one of the first female judges in her state, she was an accomplished and progressive woman with attitudes toward race and gender that were "ahead of" her time. But when I was young, I was disturbed to hear her use the phrase "colored people". Of course, I loved my great-grandmother and never brought that up with her, as I knew she'd have been offended if I'd implied she was racist.

It was only after her death that I belatedly realized that for a women of her era, "colored" was the progressive, respectful, anti-racist term of respect for black people. Far from being racist, she was proclaiming her opposition to racism every time she used the word "colored". But I guess you'd just dismiss her as a 'retard'.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:02:13 -0800

Tehanu: Where's that? I want to read a trainwreck thread!

Yeah. Me too. Because evidentially we are not going to get the self righteous flame out I so desired in this one.

By: everichon

everichon — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:09:28 -0800

Threads like this remind me of the food fight scene from Animal House.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:09:49 -0800

othogonality, it hasn't always been considered offensive, but I argue that the sort of modern pseudo-anthropology which brought us "mongoloid" and "midget" was offensive even if not intended or seen as so. I could be wrong - that's maybe a matter of historiography? Don't for a second think I was being serious by calling someone a retard, okay? Not a chance.

wrt to saying nigger or not, there's such a fraught history over who says n-word and who says nigger at this point in the discourse, indicating that the choice is still much tied to privilege, that in short I took the n-word tack personally, as a sign of respect for the weight of this ongoing process and the challenge of this choice itself. But again, I see that using other slurs is equally read as cavalier, so my "token" ha-ha, use of "n-word" wasn't, on balance, a serious enough note to communicate a caring but cavalier idealism of destroying that category of words' power. It was arrogant. Got it. I just reaaaally want to start playing with the silly string.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:14:50 -0800

Let's see if we can milk this stupid call out for another 400 comments, becuase we know people only really read the most vain and emotional appealing posts. Especially those that go after people for being racist or sexist. So let's do a little experiment and see...

Oh my GOD. orthogonality you are an apologist for the racist oppressor!

Did you guys hear? orthogonality's grandma was in the KKK!

By: Tehanu

Tehanu — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:16:39 -0800

Hillary Clinton at Wal-Mart.
I was pondering calling it out, but the main starting-to-get-personal argument seems to have stopped, which is a big improvement. Still kind of a mess, but politicsfilter does that.

By: xmutex

xmutex — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:20:20 -0800

What's the m-word?

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:20:37 -0800

hermitosis: Sort of like using a shotgun to hunt mice in your living room, IMO.

But I kept missing with my Smith & Wesson!!

Point taken. Sorry if I offended anybody with the n-bombs. It was the first perjorative that's widely known and accepted to be offensive that popped into my head, and probably a bit attention-whorish. But my point remains: the n-word offends black people, "midget" offends little people. (for different reasons, to be sure.)

tkchrist, I already pointed out the difference between AZ's post (mildly offensive, IMO, but at least he offered an explanation of historical context) and this. Twice. Make that three times. Four, if you count somebody else paraphrasing. And I'm probably missing five and six. If you have a problem with my explanation, that's okay -- address that, rather than demanding an explanation.. yet again. It's just frustrating.

I thought only Dirty Midgets was offensive? Who knew?

Oh that's right. Fucking pretty much EVERYBODY.

I'm confused... You knew the term "midget" was offensive, but you chose to use it anyhow? Why? That's not a rhetorical'. I'm asking you a direct question.

As jessamyn points out, it was the LOL framing that was "icky". So I probably wasn't clear: I found the pointing and laughing at a whole class of people to be far more offensive than the actual m-word. That's just... really shitty behavior, IMO, and as somebody else said, more "fark" than "mefi". Hence, this call-out.

On preview, nobody called you a racist. The comparison to the n-word was made to demonstrate that both terms were offensive to their respective subjects. I don't think you're a racist. I do think you're insensitive to little people. Clear?

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:21:47 -0800

What's the m-word?

Moo.

By: cortex

cortex — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:24:38 -0800

What's the m-word?

The m-bird. The m-bird, m-bird, m-bird.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:30:11 -0800

I'm confused... You knew the term "midget" was offensive, but you chose to use it anyhow? Why? That's not a rhetorical'. I'm asking you a direct question.

I didn't "use" it. Except to refer to AZ's post. What the hell are you talking about?

The comparison to the n-word was made to demonstrate that both terms were offensive to their respective subjects. I don't think you're a racist. I do think you're insensitive to little people. Clear?

Not only did I NOT make a single "midget" joke (in either thread) nor did I use the term midget in a derogatory fashion. I pointed to the other thread to show that there indeed CAN be a post about Dwarfism that is not a 400+ trainwreck.

You are a liar, a hysterical ass, and an idiot. Clear?

By: nicolas léonard sadi carnot

nicolas léonard sadi carnot — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:32:18 -0800

God, someone should just put those horrible little goblins into camps.

By: Wolof

Wolof — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:32:30 -0800

rather it means working to detourn

Please don't say that. It makes my midget ears bleed.

By: shakespeherian

shakespeherian — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:38:12 -0800

tkchrist, to be fair, in the original post you did say 'But thanks for trying to drum [controversy] up where none exists.' Thus implying that your feeling is that there is nothing wrong with the usage of the term 'midget,' and potentially that there was nothing wrong with the post (other than its being 'cryptic' with 'no real pay-off'). That doesn't really square with you being on the side of Right and Good.

By: xmutex

xmutex — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:38:55 -0800

"little people" sounds more patronizing and insulting than midget. It somehow seems to imply that you're not even a total person.

By: hermitosis

hermitosis — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:42:45 -0800

This is offensive and I"M GOING TO SEW YOU!!

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:47:07 -0800

Before Metafilter, I didn't even know that mongoloid was offensive because it meant retard. I thought it was offensive because it meant oriental.

It was interesting for me to talk to a friend who's a professor of disability studies, and who comes from Germany—in Europe, apparently, "spaz" and "mongoloid" are big no-nos, but "gimp" wasn't something that bothered her.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:50:35 -0800

sigh.

Shakesperian I was replying to Huronbobs post. Which the word midget never came up.

And yes. I think there was nothing "wrong" or bigot with the post in the sense that I doubt very much, and he himself said, he intended to offended anybody.

I smelled a pile on. It's funny that LordSludge is attempting that said pile-on be on me when there were FAR more egregious uses of bigoted slurs and snark in the thread by other posters.

The "controversy" that was attempting to be born, and to which we are now witnessed, did not NEED to happen if it did not happen with AZ's post.

Especially given that if: Midget is equally as offensive as the "n-word".

Think about it. Then ANY post titled : If your beer keg runs out early, there is probably a drunk ~~midget~~ nigger inside.

Would cause widespread outrage. REGARDLESS if it was rationalized inside the post or not. But it didn't. And Smed's, who only used to the word in reference to link that used (he also ussed little person and dwarf), did not obviously intend to make the word offensive.

BOTH threads can be contextualized. The LOLMIDGETS thing. Okay. That one link was pretty bad. But as Jessymen said that post had some interesting links. Though not enough by my standards. But eh. But not enough for a fucking shit storm or call out. which people like Lord Sludge just LOVE.

Get me?

Anyway. This call out is stupid. This argument is stupid. If you want to continue. Continue without me.

By: xmutex

xmutex — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:51:58 -0800

Who wants to continue without tkchrist?

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:52:34 -0800

FWIW, I still routinely meet people that use "midget", "cripple", "oriental", "retard", and, yes the n-word and its many derivatives. Some of them are good people who don't mean anything by it, who genuinely don't want to be using offensive terms. I try to take the time to inform them that, say, "oriental" is considered rude, "asian" is preferred. The response is generally not a digging in of heels, but a "Really? Since when? Huh. Damn, didn't know that."

But some people know damned well that they're being offensive. They revel in it, and fuck you if you don't like it. I don't bother correcting them, because they're shitty people who derive self-esteem by putting down others. Why waste my time? Their behavior says more about them than it does about anybody they're insulting. I avoid them, I've literally cut several of these people out of my life, and I'm sure we're both happier for it.

tkchrist, I don't believe I'm wasting my time here. I don't believe you fall into that second group. This really isn't like you, from what I can recall.

If I've falsely accused you, I apologize. Sincerely. My beef was with the thread, not you, per se. Your defense of the offensive thread, particularly of the term "midget", rang hollow to me, and I called you on it. I thought was self-evident. I didn't mean for it to go beyond that. Flame out if you like, but this ain't personal, at least not from this end.

On second thought... don't flame out. Too many cool people abandoning this joint nowadays. If you were local, I'd invite you to spar with me. We could film it, put it on YouTube, and put up a single link YT FPP.

MetaTalk Cage Match!! ONLY IN AMERICA!!!

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:52:54 -0800

Well shit, looks like I just missed him.

By: wendell

wendell — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:56:04 -0800

I call the subjects of the Original Post "people small enough to fit in a duffel bag". I try to avoid derogatory categorizations of people in all my communications (example), but it is so tempting to identify some of my fellow MeFites as Mental Midgets.

By: xmutex

xmutex — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:56:34 -0800

FWIW, I still routinely meet people that use "midget", "cripple", "oriental", "retard", and, yes the n-word and its many derivatives. Some of them are good people who don't mean anything by it, who genuinely don't want to be using offensive terms.

My lord man newsflash: simply because you find something offensive doesn't therefore mean it's objectively offensive. People and their opinions vary! You, alas, are not the sole arbiter of offensive.

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:59:05 -0800

While you're in here arguing, uncaring duffel bag men are going through the luggage compartment of your subconscious minds and stealing your precious memories.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:03:26 -0800

Who wants to continue without tkchrist?

I do!

DOH! SHIT.
Sockpuppet next time. Damn it. Sockpuppet!

By: wendell

wendell — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:14:16 -0800

I routinely meet people here on MetaFilter who genuinely DO want to be using offensive terms. They consider it "daring" or even "courageous" to be "Politically Incorrect". Most, if not all, of them are merely getting their enjoyment from being cruel. Shorthand labels are lazy, whether you're calling someone a "midget" or a "giant". There are some disputes over the propriety of describing people certain ways that have gone too far, and often there is a lack of useful alternatives to borderline-cruel terminology. But it's no excuse for intentional offensiveness.

I much prefer generally nonsensical insults like "nincompoop", "asshat" and "xmutex".

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:15:13 -0800

Disabled is the preferred term.

I heard it's "Differently Abled" or "Handicapable."

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:17:14 -0800

“If you have a problem with my explanation, that's okay -- address that, rather than demanding an explanation.. yet again. It's just frustrating.”

Welcome to the party, pal.
There’s a difference between the justifiabe criticizism of the post as it was and castigating someone.

I said I meant no offense. I apologized. I universally ceded it was a lousy post (y’all been up 28 hours? not an excuse, but I should have anticipated poor performance out of a dulled wit).

I explained my reasoning, cited and linked to where the term has been used elsewhere in print - which led to my misunderstanding - you’re still telling me no I’m pointing and laughing at little people. (Only time I’ve heard that is on Seinfeld, but maybe it had some validity I thought)
But no, I’m a liar as well as hateful because you don’t want to take my word for it that I screwed the pooch on this?

“If you were local, I'd invite you to spar with me.”

Yeah? Why don’t you come spar with me. I’ll fly you out.
...nah, probably not a good idea.
I respect the hell out of tkchrist for - obviously and visibly - defending a principle while kicking the quality of my post (justifiably) in the ass. But this wanna make nice bullshit really pisses me off.

Because meanwhile he gets (albeit deserved) apologies, I get -“So I probably wasn't clear: I found the pointing and laughing at a whole class of people to be far more offensive than the actual m-word. That's just... really shitty behavior, IMO, and as somebody else said, more "fark" than "mefi". Hence, this call-out”

So y’all not being clear, misunderstanding something - whoops. Hey it’s a whole post-structuralist thing, man.

I do it, shitty behavior and I must be a racist ‘retard’ deserving of whatever derogation is handed my way (because I wouldn’t be offended at the use of the word ‘retard,’ even if someone in my family is autistic, amirite?).

I take a break and this crap is still going on? God damn some people just never ever make any mistakes themselves do they?
What’s that old line about attibuting to stupidity vs. malice? What, y’all refuse to believe I’m stupid?
Well, chalk up today as another day the sun just refuses to shine out my own asshole. Guess I’ll have to bathe in the light of yours.

By: wendell

wendell — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:19:44 -0800

shmegegge, by coming up with shorthand labels that go way too far in avoiding negative connotations, doesn't that just prove the lack of value of shorthand labels?

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:20:24 -0800

Smed your a stand up guy. I think everybody here knows that.

By: shakespeherian

shakespeherian — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:20:53 -0800

tkchrist, I think the key difference between Astro Zombie's post and the deleted one is that AZ's post read as a sort of 'look at the interesting historical achievements and activities of a certain overlooked class of people'— I can easily imagine a similar post about black actors (which might even feature the word 'Negro,' for historical accuracy)— whereas the deleted post read much more as 'let's chuckle at how bizarre and different from normal folk a certain class of people is.' I don't really see how you can make an equivalence.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:22:13 -0800

mmmmmaybe? I'm not sure if you're saying I came up with those terms (I didn't) or if you're just criticizing the disabled community for having come up with them.

on the whole I would agree with you, but in the particulars I'll say "it may be lazy, but no one wants to specifically have to say 'paraplegics, quadraplegics, those with osteoporosis and other people deserving of a bumper sticker that allows them to park closer to the movie theater for medical reasons.' every time they want to refer to a handicapped person."

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:22:15 -0800

Bears repeating, I think.

Oh, great...another label being brought into the thread. What about "twinkies?"

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:24:00 -0800

Sticker People? Too crass?

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:29:20 -0800

My lord man newsflash: simply because you find something offensive doesn't therefore mean it's objectively offensive. People and their opinions vary! You, alas, are not the sole arbiter of offensive.

Nothing is "objectively offensive", and I'm not trying to be the the PC Police or anything. But come on -- if you had a good friend who you *knew* wasn't racist -- maybe they came from a different country, or just lived a culturally isolated existance -- and they dropped the n-bomb or some other offensive term routinely NOT REALIZING it was offensive... wouldn't you tell them?? (Or would you sit back and enjoy the show? heh)

I'm dating a girl from Russia, and at some point I plan to visit her country with her. She's already told me that I do things here that would be very inappropriate there: hugging women as a greeting, being overtly friendly to strangers, etc. I'm counting on her to keep me culturally appropriate.

Ah, I see you're back, tkchrist. We cool? I'm cool, regardless. Don't be pissed. No reason to. We can swap e-mails if you still want to hash some things out. Quick, say something mean. I gotta go to the dojo and hit stuff now, and I sorta wish I had some anger to channel.

Smed: Bring it! Will you pay me for my time, too? I'm pretty cheap nowadays. Sounds like fun. :) <-- oh hell yes I used a smiley!

Gotta run, y'all be good...

By: languagehat

languagehat — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:35:48 -0800

Smedleyman: Ok. I meant no offense. My mistake. Suggestion?

LordSludge: Ummm, you were pretty much pointing and laughing at little people (because they're LITTLE, SEE???) while using an insulting term. Very inappropriate. But since you ask, I suggest apologizing, mailing the mods to strike the post, and let's lock/delete this call-out thread and forget the whole thing.

You know, LordSludge, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt up to that point, annoyed as I am with the spate of recent dumbfuck callouts. But your response to Smed's "Ok. I meant no offense. My mistake" is so nasty and ungenerous it makes you look like a complete jerk. I express no opinion on whether you are, in fact, a complete jerk, but I know from Smed's years of contributions here that he is a good guy. I advise you to pick your fights, your opponents, and your rhetoric more carefully.

By: xmutex

xmutex — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:39:42 -0800

Whoa wait we have black people on MetaFilter?

By: languagehat

languagehat — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:39:53 -0800

On non-preview:

I'm dating a girl from Russia, and at some point I plan to visit her country with her. She's already told me that I do things here that would be very inappropriate there

News flash: Russians say and do things that will spin your head around and make you puke technicolor. If you go to Russia you will hear casual talk about women, Jews, people from the Caucasus (whom the Russians call "blacks"), East Asians, small people, and any imaginable other groups. If you visit Russia and decide to show your righteousness by making an insulting public callout like this, please have a bystander make a video and post the resulting bloodbath to MetaFilter!

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:47:44 -0800

or hell, just tell them you like Dream Theater and film the results of that.

oh snap! No I di-in't!

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:50:19 -0800

Well, there goes my post about Heeb magazine.

By: Bookhouse

Bookhouse — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:51:05 -0800

I saw Peter Dinklage near Union Square a few weeks ago, and, little or not, he looked (in both mien and carriage) like he could whup my ass up to 42nd Street. Not that I'm Hulk Hogan or anything, but dag, Peter Dinklage, you are bad.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:54:52 -0800

The words themselves are the offensive symptom, not the offensive disease. We all understand that, don't we? One can "sneeze," calling someone oriental, unwittingly offending, and not BE institutionalized orientalism incarnate. Words that become tools of categorization for the purpose of derision, degredeation, disempowerment, ad nauseum, are just tools of evil, and we try to repurpose them because language is additive, mostly, so they can't be eradicated. Injustice has always been offensive, and its tools have as well, no matter how acceptable, or scientific, or whatever, the words were deemed. This strikes me as intuitive and quite logical, so I get confused about why people defend words compared to others based on their contemporaneous location in the reclamation process,why for some itnot okay to call the DMV lines retarded but still maybe okay to call someone with trisomy 21 a retard. wtf. Then again, I see this approach to language as a uniquely "postmodern" conceit, too, so I get the inherent subjectivity I wield, but, well, one can't collapse time. By the way, I am really tired right now, and possibly not making optimal levels of sense.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:15:20 -0800

“By the way, I am really tired right now, and possibly not making optimal levels of sense.”

Yeah, well, that cut no slack for me. I say ‘midget’ along with the star paper and the NYT and I’m a racist pure and simple.
You call me (indirectly) a ‘retard’ and it’s “contemporaneous location in the reclamation process.” Uh huh.

“Bring it! Will you pay me for my time, too? I'm pretty cheap nowadays. Sounds like fun. :) <> Yeah, I wasn’t talking about trading hands in a ring. My office is a little further out.
But ok, we’re all hardcore badasses.
So it’s ok to tell someone to go to hell if you smile? I’m missing the admission of error part of the equation here. I’ve got no harsh words for you. I’ve ceded I blew it. That’s universally agreed.(Maybe you’re trying to make amends and I’m missing it, but make it clear for me, I’m slow today).
YOU (et.al.) are the one kicking over MY tea wagon slick. I did give you “a simple my bad, I didn't realize that term was offensive” (as you stated to tkchrist) and that cut zero ice with you.

The post is gone. History. I’ve been looking to settle this. Thought it would just peter out if I split, but no we gotta go after folks who don’t like to see bullying. And they get apologies and their arguments and citations addressed, but far you’ve been ducking my comments and questions (you grow some huge balls when it comes to sparing with me though, eh badass?). The term ‘midgets’ being bad or not I’m willing to let go (despite it being published in the NYT, et.al.) because really, I had and still have no idea. But it pisses someone off violently, maybe it’s a personal thing, ok, so I won’t use it. Wrong or right it’s disruptive to communication - here at least, so I’ll bend with the wind.

But what’s at issue is what you (et.al) are calling me - you’re either calling me a lying racist scumbag or you believe me when I say I screwed up and didn’t mean to offend anyone (as I said). Your call. Settle it.

(also: generally speaking, I very much appreciate the support. I don’t wish to involve anyone in this however, nor am I looking for some sort of popular... thing (sorry, my brain isn’t on today - obvious, really). However many folks of whatever esteem on whomever’s side doesn’t prove a point right or wrong. Again, grateful as I am.)

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:28:35 -0800

I didn't call you a retard, dude. It was patently facetious, but if you want to be offended anyway, go nuts.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:34:56 -0800

Go to hell, Smed, I'LL DEFEND YOU IF I FUCKING WANT TO. Got that? You bastard.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:35:54 -0800

go nuts.

Nuts? NUTS!?

I AM OFFENDED!!!

Mon Dieu ! Vous paysan insultant !

Mental Illness is no joking matter. I should know. For I am the Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte.

By: misha

misha — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:36:03 -0800

"based on their contemporaneous location in the reclamation process"?! Wow. Do you talk like that all the time, professor? ; )

But yes, I get what you are saying, AV. Only I think I would stop using the word retard completely, if I were you. The accepted term is moron. or MORAN, if you are making a sign.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:43:16 -0800

I much prefer generally nonsensical insults like "nincompoop", "asshat" and "xmutex".

I support this. If you can't play with language, what can you play with? Other than yourself, of course.

By: jamjam

jamjam — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:43:16 -0800

I don't have a personal dog in this fight,
...

tkchrist, Smedleyman, you know better than this. Let's make this brief.

You know, after reading this thread, I don't think this callout has anything at all to do with "midgets" or any other groups which might sensitive about terms used to describe them, or anything at all to do with proper terms of any kind.

As we all know, Smedlleyman and tkchrist are very competent and experienced in the martial arts. I would say, in fact, that they are our two members who have the greatest reputations as tough guys.

Ah, I see you're back, tkchrist. We cool? I'm cool, regardless. Don't be pissed. No reason to. We can swap e-mails if you still want to hash some things out. Quick, say something mean. I gotta go to the dojo and hit stuff now, and I sorta wish I had some anger to channel.

This is only the last of many posts just in this thread which display LordSludge's desire to be a tough guy, too (and to be seen that way here, of course). It must have been frustrating for LordSludge to see these two old bulls get all these props when there is a tough young dude like him around. How great it would be to pull them down off that pedestal and rub their noses in it a little bit.

Mmm, mmm, mmm-- what's a tough young dude to do?

This callout, apparently.

By: jamjam

jamjam — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:56:26 -0800

On preview: please don't waste any more of your time on this little fool, Smedleyman.

I don't think even your extravagant verbal talents could make me want to read one more word about him.

By: psmith

psmith — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:59:12 -0800

Once lost but I was found
When I heard the stained glass
shatter all around me
I sent those midgets tumbling
down the hill
But I will hold this one on high
above me still
She whispers words to clear my mind
I once could see but now at last
I'm blind

By: Kirth Gerson

Kirth Gerson — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:59:37 -0800

King of the Midgets

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:06:41 -0800

“I didn't call you a retard, dude. It was patently facetious, but if you want to be offended anyway, go nuts.”

I said I made a mistake regarding the thing. I didn’t know the term “midgets” was offensive.
*then*
*later*
You said “If you don't get how midget is, and always has been as offensive as cripple, faggot, or the "n-word," you are, well, a retard.”

Can you follow the logic where a reasonable individual would connect these two pieces of information?

It was not “patently facetious” to me.

You, as the originator of the comment, are telling me however *later* you meant it as such.
Therefore I must logically conclude you meant what you said, meant no offense, meant the thing in another spirit entirely - and that my reading is therefore wrong - in order to form a cogent dialogue between us.

My objection to the phrase itself might stand (as I do have an autistic cousin whom I love very much and I dislike the use of the word retard) and I could expound (generally) on the why's and wherefores of my objections, but given some slack, given the limitations of the medium. (such as: no inflection)and since you have made clear that I've mistaken your position, and the point is made, why not cut it loose.

Ergo - no sweat. My mistake.
(Jeeze, I had to admit I was mistaken and let something go. What an f'ing nightmare.)

“I'LL DEFEND YOU IF I FUCKING WANT TO. Got that? You bastard.” -posted by languagehat

I don’t want no part of that, LH. I’d rather fight a legion of armored bears armed with a herring*.

(*DISCLAIMER: no offense to blacksmiths, bears - both the feral animal and the colloquially addressed homosexuals**, Monty Python or Golden Compass fans (film, book series or video game) or the small oily fish of the genus Clupea harengus found in the shallow, temperate waters of the Atlantic, the the Mediterranean*** and other oceans).

(**DISCLAIMER: Not a comment on whether it is correct or accurate to refer to any human in such a manner, merely that this seems to be a self-identifying monicker among certain groups of individuals with certain distinctive, but perfectly acceptable, features.)

(***DISCLAIMER: this is not to imply the inhabitants of any specific region of the Earth are by nature small or oily or shallow or temperate or fish like in any way or that living in an oceanic environment is a bad thing)

By: desjardins

desjardins — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:11:50 -0800

some people in this thread need a nap.

By: jasper411

jasper411 — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:39:54 -0800

If only Smilla had not closed her account, perhaps his or her small treasure would have prevented this trainwreck from happening...

By: languagehat

languagehat — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:45:09 -0800

I’d rather fight a legion of armored bears armed with a herring

Excellent, because I happen to have a legion of armored bears armed with a herring right here. Step this way, please!

By: Sys Rq

Sys Rq — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:49:58 -0800

Before Metafilter, I didn't even know that mongoloid was offensive because it meant retard. I thought it was offensive because it meant oriental.

Fun fact! "Oriental" is also offensive.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:59:34 -0800

“I don't think even your extravagant verbal talents could make me want to read one more word about him.”

Appreciated. And, much as I hate to target my own foot - I have to admit, I wasn’t all that extravagant today, verbally, in that post.
The criticism of the post is valid. What else can I do but admit that and apologize? Out of line is out of line.

And again, thanks for the support, but let’s not make this a personal thing. I don’t know LordSludge's motives. (And y’know, the veracity of one’s words thing. tkchrist has his real name out there, I don’t. So while he’s said, and I like to think I’ve said, some valid things concerning physical violence, I could be some nerd sitting in mom’s basement with Mas Oyama’s book or something.)

I can’t argue with him on those. Indeed, that’s exactly the point I’m championing. I can only address his words. The veracity of what he’s said. I’m not looking to win (to be clear, I’m not asserting that is your or anyone else’s goal either) I’m simply looking to preserve the idea over the form. Principle over person.

While I agree some forms of speech have the purpose of making one set of people forget that certain other sets of people are human, that is often very dependant on the ideas behind them.
What occured here was the form of that, without the intent.

And that from might indeed be distasteful (and, ok, it was, again, I beg everyone’s pardon).
But distaste does not absolve someone of the obligation of tolerance in discourse at least to the extent that the discover the speakers’ intent.
Query not admonition.
Otherwise the ideas themselves become secondary to the form they take. And if me, or anyone, mistakenly or otherwise tries to make a point about something and are reviled for it without an understanding of the ideas behind the words then it’s not exactly communication we’re doing here it’s just a society of brutality and gainsaying.

There’s a lot of folks here I’m rather fond of. But I have to adhere to that point. It has to be about what we say - and importantly - what we say in earnest that defines a dialogue.
Folks can’t be afraid to tell me I’m wrong or full of crap because I’m “Smedleyman” but neither should they, I, or anyone else defend from that position.

It’s about sharing ideas. Some folks expressed the thought that I packaged my ideas incorrectly. That’s right.

A few people seem to be tagging me with ideas I explicitly stated that I don’t hold. That’s wrong.
It’d be wrong if I were anyone else here who didn’t have the good fortune I have in support.

Again, much as I appreciate the good will

Only difference is I admit when I’m wrong and I apologize.

I will say some folks are right about a lot of things though - Is the accuser always holy now?

(These are new times, sir. There is a misty plot afoot so subtle we should be criminal to cling to old respect and ancient friendships. I have seen too many frightful proofs in court — racism is alive on metafilter and we dare not quail to follow wherever the accusing finger points!)

(LH I wish I could find a picture of bears fencing with herrings)

By: jonmc

jonmc — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:01:19 -0800

If you don't get how midget is, and always has been as offensive as cripple, faggot, or the "n-word," you are, well, a retard.

well said, irony boy.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:02:56 -0800

Excellent, because I happen to have a legion of armored bears armed with a herring right here.

This cannot be true, because bears enjoy fish and have poor impulse control and would have devoured the herring, rendering it useless as a weapon.

[NOT BEARIST]

By: lleachie

lleachie — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:03:04 -0800

I heard it's "Differently Abled" or "Handicapable."
posted by shmegegge at 4:15 PM on January 31 [+] [!]

Actually, "persons with disabilities" is current usage. The idea is that people have disabilities. They are NOT their disabilities.

There are some individuals with disabilities, however, who argue with this usage, just as there are Native Americans who still call themselves "Indian". For example, people who are deaf see themselves as having a culture distinct from "hearing culture" and call themselves "deaf", not "people with deafness". Some people with Aspergers say that because their condition is inseperable from how they see the world, they ARE "aspies" or "autistic" rather than "people with Aspergers/autism".

Sorry for the derail, folks

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:05:02 -0800

"Fun fact! "Oriental" is also offensive."

For my Middle East Politics class, we all had to read a work of theory about the region, along with a couple supporters and detractors, and give a presentation for the class. The class then had to give us anonymous notes.

I chose Said's Orientalism, and ran through a brief history of Orientalism and did my piece regarding its continuing relevance (especially regarding the rhetoric surrounding the then-nascent move to attack Iraq).

One of the longest notes I got as feedback read, in its entirety, "Good job, but you're not supposed to call them Orientals anymore—they're Asians."

Neither the student who wrote me that note nor you were paying attention.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:06:09 -0800

Oh, and, dude, Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, if you please.

By: middleclasstool

middleclasstool — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:17:46 -0800

My people prefer to be referred to as The Studly Hungwells. Please be sensitive to our needs.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:30:00 -0800

I have been consistently impressed by Smedleyman's thoughtful contributions to the site, and am happy to take the man at his word. FWIW, Smedleyman, I didn't read LordSludge as so much continuing to have a go at you, more he carried on trying to fight his corner when challenged and that inevitably involved dredging up the various perceived grievances.
It's entirely mainstream hear in China to use the cognate of "oriental" (东方) about cultures and so on (and be proud to do so), and 东方人 about persons; and by sweet Christ do the academic types like to bang on about the "occident" and "occidental" in a variety of ill-informed ways. (Also, the term for disabled has recently changed from 残废人 to 残疾人 which is kind of like the shift from "cripple" to "disabled person.") Not particularly relevant here I realise, but I watch words for a living so I find this stuff interesting.

By: Kirth Gerson

Kirth Gerson — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:31:21 -0800

Oh, and, dude, Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, if you please.

I think you'll find they prefer 'Chinese.' For American-born Chinese, it's sometimes 'ABC.' Asian-American? No.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:36:24 -0800

Also, Leyton Orient are almost as shit as my beloved Crewe Alex.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:38:33 -0800

I just call 'em all the Chinee.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:38:57 -0800

Or "Hey, railroad worker!"

By: jonmc

jonmc — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:39:39 -0800

Kirth Gerson, I'm guessing you've never seen The Big Lebowski.

By: misha

misha — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:52:50 -0800

Appropos of nothing, does anyone remember the TV series Kung Fu? And how everyone on the show, when first meeting David Carradine, would call him "Chinaman"? Does anyone look less like a Chinaman (by which I mean Asian/Occidental/ABC, etc.) than David Carradine?

By: jonmc

jonmc — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:58:23 -0800

I just call 'em all the Chinee.

Celestials.

By: middleclasstool

middleclasstool — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:01:49 -0800

Celestials.

Cocksucker!

By: jfuller

jfuller — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:08:45 -0800

>>>> Is cripple an offensive word?

>>> It is out of fashion, yes. Disabled is the preferred term.

>> I heard it's "Differently Abled"

> Actually, "persons with disabilities" is current usage.

For now. But check back in fifteen minutes or you'll totally miss it when the euphemism of the moment is superseded by the euphemism of the next moment.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:11:45 -0800

Does anyone look less like a Chinaman (by which I mean Asian/Occidental/ABC, etc.) than David Carradine?

Marlon Brando looks less like an Asian than David Carradine, but it didn't stop him from playing one in Teahouse Of The August Moon.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:12:04 -0800

Does anyone look less like a Chinaman (by which I mean Asian/Occidental/ABC, etc.) than David Carradine?

Ron Howard.

By: cortex

cortex — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:17:31 -0800

Mickey Rooney. "But", you object, "he was playing Japanese." But, I rebut, he was playing the Japanese flavor of a caricature that wasn't exactly hanging its hat on careful Asian cultural distinctions.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:23:20 -0800

I'll see your Rooney and raise. All in. I've got a full house: Katharine Hepburn, John Wayne and Marlon Brando.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:28:59 -0800

I am not a Korean, but I play one on Metafilter.

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:35:35 -0800

But check back in fifteen minutes or you'll totally miss it when the euphemism of the moment is superseded by the euphemism of the next moment.

Actually why bother if you're just going to make a new dig about how to refer to people different from yourself because you have some position of privilege that doesn't require you to be polite to other people you don't need something from?

Seriously, you can call people ANY NAME YOU WANT if you don't care what they think of you or what other people think about you for calling them that. This gets somewhat codified with hate speech legislation and other legalistic things that do impinge on your right to be as assholish as you want, but generally speaking you don't not call people racial slurs because you're afraid you're going to get arrested or get your ass kicked, you do it because it's the right thing to do if you're trying to get along with people and not flaunt the fact that you don't give a shit about them and don't have to.

The number of women on this site who have gotten memail/email from men on this site calling them "cunts" this week is two, which may or may not be related to this general name-calling jag the site seems to be on. That number should be and should remain zero. I sort of feel like people casually bandying about shitty racial epithets in this thread just because they can is icky. Acting like it's some sort of hassle to try to at least make an effort to figure out a decent term for the group you are trying to refer to just betrays a position or privilege where you don't have to care.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:35:51 -0800

Mefi's own bokane is often mistaken for a Chinese man despite being Irish via Philadelphia. People can't imagine a foreigner could speak and write the language as well as he does. Somehow, that's never an issue with me. Ahem.

By: psmith

psmith — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:52:42 -0800

Wait, don't we just know the number of mefi men who have called mefi women cunts via memail/email and also told on those men to mommy or daddy admins? I'm just thinking the number could be higher.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:56:11 -0800

Seriously, you can call people ANY NAME YOU WANT if you don't care what they think of you or what other people think about you for calling them that.

Precisely, and this is why I always tend to argue that it's not worth it to become upset or offended over the words people use, which are, at the end of the day, only words. The fact that people will use them blithely or in anger, or in attempts at humour of varying degrees of lameness, or to be all edgy and shocking and stuff -- that reflects only on those people, and not in any positive way. They dig their own social graves without us calling down heavenly fire on their head, or shouting them down or whatever.

The way we use language, especially in the texty world we inhabit here, tells other people everything they can know about us. If someone uses language in such a way that they expose their cruelty or insensitivity or boorishness or whatever, repeatedly, well, we know enough not to engage them in future, or at the very least have our perception of what they have to say about other things made more negative, which is as it should be, perhaps. Getting upset and offended, and maybe calling for language that offends us to be prohibited, is just self-defeating. People are different, and much as we might like to, we can't love all of them.

As a moderator, jessamyn, you're in a difficult position in that it is your role to some extent to try and throw a firewall around the worst of the nastiness and stupidity, or at least make it clear that it's not something that we as a community are all that keen on. But I think for the rest of us, discouraging by disdain or just ignoring deliberate or language-provocateur hijinks, while noting to ourselves for the future the people that perenially seem to enjoy it and interacting with them accordingly, is a lot wiser than getting upset.

Too many good people have left this site in recent times over stuff like this (and, of course, disagreement over the deeper issues involved), and that really sucks.

By: jfuller

jfuller — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:04:33 -0800

> told on those men to mommy or daddy admins?

a word to the wise, psmith. "mommy and daddy" is considered offensive.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:09:00 -0800

jfuller: I'd be the last person on earth to deny that linguistic sensitivity can get a little precious at times, but shooting your mouth off for it's own sake in the other direction gets old pretty quick, too, especially when it seems to be all that someone has to offer. just saying.

By: spaceman_spiff

spaceman_spiff — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:10:25 -0800

As one of the original complainers (and flaggers, and, oh yeah, a dwarf), I think LS has gone a bit overboard here. The post was arguably in bad taste; it got taken down; Smedleyman agreed that maybe it was a lapse in judgment. Those of us who work to change peoples' attitudes and ways of expressing themselves sometimes do latch on and not let go. In the end, though, I feel that it's more powerful to, as Wikipedia puts it, assume good faith. Everyone ends up happier that way.

And eeryone needs a hug.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:21:15 -0800

Linking to the Daily Mail in itself puts your argument outside of rational discourse, jfuller. Single parent asylum seekers paid me to say this with Moscow gold.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:22:11 -0800

paid me to say this with Moscow gold

is that as good as Maui Wowee?

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:23:34 -0800

The wages of sin aren't great but the hours are flexible.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:24:32 -0800

"The wages of sin are death, but after taxes it's just a tired feeling, really" - Paula Poundstone

By: Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America

Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:36:13 -0800

OK, but "Bridget the Little Person" just has no vim to it at all.

By: brain_drain

brain_drain — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:42:11 -0800

Let's make this brief.

FAIL

By: breezeway

breezeway — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:45:10 -0800

I sprained my knee last week helping a man in a wheelchair off the bus. I didn't notice whether he had legs or not. I don't think I'll need surgery but it'll be months before my knee heals. But I was damned if I was going to make a big stink about fucking up my knee to him, so I stood there until he turned the corner before I limped away.

Once, this motherfucker on the corner called me "temporarily abled." I'm still mad about that. So I guess we can all be addressed in a way that offends.

I expect "little people" to be superseded soon in favor of something more dignified, though.

By: ThePinkSuperhero

ThePinkSuperhero — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:45:14 -0800

The number of women on this site who have gotten memail/email from men on this site calling them "cunts" this week is two

Oh hellllllllllll to the no.

By: Burhanistan

Burhanistan — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:49:11 -0800

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:50:46 -0800

Finally back. Look, my biggest regret about this call-out thread is that I didn't set my own tone correctly. The tone I wanted to set was "Dude. Not cool." along with a sense of "WTF??" frustration that two guys who showed no history of asshattedness, and I generally consider as cool fellows, were conducting themselves as bigots and bullies, IMO. I'll try to be more explicit about this in the future. But, hey, this is my first (hopefully last) call-out thread, so cut me a little slack! (This supports my theory about social skills being "skills" that can be developed through practice -- having never done a call-out before, I kinda suck at it. Then again, if I get good at it..., we have a problem.)

I wanted, also, to be clear: The "I'd love to spar tkchrist" comment was not in any way meant as a threat -- rather, it was meant in a similar spirit to "I'd love to jam with XX musician". Hence the smiley face. Martial arts is something I love, and from past posts I know it's something he loves. You can't be pissed at a guy after sparring (in good faith, of course) to exhaustion, you just can't. Given his experience, I'd probably lose, and I'm okay with that -- I'm only now training for my yellow belt, but the form I train is, I believe, very effective (a great hybrid form, kinda like a non-sport MMA), I'm pretty strong (but not that young: 37) and have good cardio, so I bet I could at least make it interesting. I *love* sparring with superior opponents -- even when you lose, *especially* when you lose, you learn something! (Rolled with my sensei for the first time tonight, actually, and besides it being the most fun I've had ever at the dojo, I'm still processing all I learned and likely will be for days.) Again, it was an offer to engage in sport. I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that, and I see how an offer to spar could be interpreted as a threat, especially with emotions running hot as they were.

And, to be crystal clear, I won't "fight" anyone here. "Fighting", as opposed to "sparring", is something I would only do if I, or somebody I care about, is threatened with serious injury or death, and I think tkchrist would agree with that philosophy. I won't fight for pride, and I certainly won't fight over a MeFi thread. If I fight, somebody is going to the hospital or morgue, and somebody is going to jail. Neither is a place I want to be. And, really, I won't even spar anybody who doesn't know what they're doing, because they'd get themselves hurt (say, by not knowing how to break a fall) and then I'd feel like shit.

I think everybody who took the time to critique my own behavior deserves a response. After the break...

By: middleclasstool

middleclasstool — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:01:20 -0800

The number of women on this site who have gotten memail/email from men on this site calling them "cunts" this week is two

Seriously? Guys? I want to punch you. In the nuts. With Hitler's nuts. And then take your nuts and punch Hitler. In the nuts. And then...I dunno, something emasculating that really underscores the fact that I hate you. Really really really hate you. With guns.

By: cortex

cortex — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:02:41 -0800

jessamyn: Just curious, do these c-word emails get detected by a filter or did they get forwarded to you? Because if it's the latter then there are probably more that don't get reported. No comment if it's the former.

It's the latter; we don't do any sort of tracking or filtering of mefimail, and it's a moot point for external email regardless.

Obviously we have no way of knowing what nasty things people might or might not be saying to each other via mefimail or email or IM or etc; I'm optimistically inclined to think there's really not a whole lot of it going on, and that whatever does go on is a little more confined to actual interpersonal squabbles between users who sort of know each other rather than the fucked-up driveby nastygrammery we've seen this week.

And while slow-burn interpersonal email stuff isn't something we generally need or want to hear about, really weird and abusive stuff is pretty much something we want to know about, and I'd hope that in most (hopefully rare) cases, we are hearing about it.

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:04:38 -0800

did they get forwarded to you?

People forward them. And they're not like "OMG FIX IT, I am super offended!" they're like "I am having a bad week and this isn't helping so I'm going to take some time off from MetaFilter, just thought I'd let you know" or whatever. Either way it seems like a damned shame. We'd like to encourage people to share contact info and be contactable (all people, this isn't just a guy/gal thing) and having people send nastygrams just because they don't like someone's question or don't like the way someone was talking about something in a thread is just weak. I know it sounds a little weird, but I'd prefer people were jerkish in MeTa in "public" than just secretly attack folks over email/memail.