the women don't go, they find some marginal employment elsewhere, their lives are still screwed up from being effed over by these criminals, and they struggle to put all of the pieces of their lives back together. We won't read about this scenario, we'll just assume that this is what happens when/if they decide not to go.I'm not sure that is what will happen. They're here on J1 visas, which means that they're probably college students who were only planning to stay for the summer and then go back to school. I think the best case scenario, in which they extricate themselves fairly promptly, may not be that bad. At least, that's what I'm hoping.
So it's not that they're literally slaves, just exploited and naive young women.Right. Or at least, they're not slaves at first. And by the time they find themselves really trapped, their resources are hugely diminished. They feel responsible for what's happened to them. They've done things that they fear might make authorities and their families unsympathetic to them or might even get them arrested if they seek out the police. They might even feel a sense of loyalty to the people who are exploiting them. SVU likes their stories really tidy. I think the reality of human trafficking is often a little messier. It's no less horrific, but it's not as tidy.
And I'd rather have them be a little creeped out and saved from a horrible fate. Not out of line.Sure, but at this point I'm a little worried that we're making them less likely, not more likely to get help or to look at their situation critically.
And yet, there is still a bright line between that and being stuck in a sex trafficking situation.My understanding is actually that there are a fair number of trafficked people in the U.S. who aren't involved in the sex trade. They're forced to work in domestic service, agriculture, sweatshops, and the like. What defines trafficking is the element of coercion. On the other hand, there are added burdens for people who have been subject to sex trafficking, because there's a lot of additional trauma and stigma involved in being forced into sex work.
Maybe you, and a lot of other people here, should step back and ask yourself why it's such a problem for you that someone wants to actually verify a specific part of the story.I can't speak for anyone else, bingo, but for me the problem is that it makes me concerned for your safety. And while you're not my favorite mefite, I wouldn't want any harm to befall you. I'm also not sure what you think you're going to find that's going to clarify anything.
He's going to go to Brooklyn, and walk down the street past buildings, including the one mentioned in the thread. There is nothing inherently dangerous about this plan, beyond the normal dangers, such as being hit by a car.You're probably right. But they may already have been visited by cops today because of this thread and be pissed off about that, whether they're involved in nefarious stuff or not. They may already be annoyed by the unwanted attention this discussion has generated. And Bingo and his posse may not be as subtle as he thinks they will be. And I still don't understand what he thinks he's going to find that's going to shed any light on the situation.
He won't find anything the various law enforcement agencies don't already know, and even if there was a giant neon sign out front saying "horrible people inside!" that information couldn't be transmitted to the two women that would need to see it.I think he's actually looking for the opposite. And it'd be nice if there was some sort of Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval that certified that there were no enslaved Russian prostitutes at a given establishment, but sadly, no such thing exists. And even if it did, it wouldn't really clarify what was going on here, because who knows if they're actually going to end up working at the Lux Lounge. I don't think there's any way for us to know what's going on here. All that we know is that it all looks kind of sketchy in a way that's worrisome. But I don't think that the average mefite is going to be able to figure out whether our fears are justified or not.
Bingo’s not talking about walking down a random street in Brighton Beach-he’s talking about surreptitiously casing a place that may or may not be owned by the mafia.Forget about that. He's talking about surreptitiously casing a place in an immigrant neighborhood that's about to be investigated up the wazoo by the immigration authorities, all because of a tip from some non-Russian do-gooder. Let's assume this is all a big misunderstanding, and the people who own the Lux Lounge are just running an innocent bar/ part-time strip club. How do you think they're going to feel tonight about attention from nice, non-Russian do-gooders?
And yet, even with a benefit of a doubt that it's "legit", somebody paid the $3K for them to come here, and will no doubt want their money paid back somehow.I think that they or their families paid the $3000 to the agency to come here as part of an established educational exchange program. I think the agency might get paid the $3000 to do the visa paperwork and find them a job. The agency they came through may be shady, but the J1 visa program is legit. It's a way for college students from other countries to come to the U.S. on short-term work visas, so they can practice their English and learn about American culture. It's a real thing.
Meanwhile, I'm at home recovering and prepping for a job interview tomorrow at 9am and trying to figure out how we'll feed two extra people!I'm pretty sure that you could take them to Per Se with the money that people here would be delighted to pitch in.
Posing as employment and travel agencies, criminal gangs promise women jobs as waitresses and barmaids overseas, but then treat them as slaves, forcing them to work as prostitutes to pay off thousand-dollar debts for their travel. Victims, typically aged between 16 and 35, are often raped and beaten, have their passports confiscated and are threatened with harm to themselves and their families if they try to break their "contracts" or seek help. (Christina Ling, "Rights Activists Rap Ex-Soviet States on Sex-Trade" Reuters, 6 November 1997)Glad you all managed to intercept this close-to-home incidence of a global human rights problem. Well done.
But I just re-read the thread and still couldn't understand this last bit - how did the girls finally put two and two together? They went from "hey fake leave us alone" to "thanks for saving our lives" really fast. Did somebody show them the links to the club? Did they drive to the place before meeting up at PA?I don't know about Greyhound, but the D.C. to NY Bolt buses have free wi-fi. My guess would be that another passenger let them use his or her computer or phone to google the place, and the Russian-language results alerted them to sketchiness.
And it would be one thing to say "It didn't look like a brothel to me," although Bingo has given no sense of expertise as to what a brothel might look like.Actually, I believe he did claim to have expertise about what brothels look like. And because this is not a discussion about the ethics of the sex industry, nor about the good taste of discussing one's participation in the sex industry in a thread about possible sex trafficking, I'm not going to touch that one with a ten foot pole!
Ask MetaFilter comments should address the main question being asked. Common reasons for comment removal are wisecracks, derailing/ranting/axegrinding, picking a fight with or heavy chastising of the question asker, single word posts (yes, no, DTMFA &c.) and other non-answers that should probably be brought to MetaTalk. While it's okay to ask follow-up questions to the original asker, piggybacking questions [asking your own related question within someone else's AskMe] will often be removed.Sometimes moderators jessamyn, cortex or mathowie come in to clean up threads that are veering off track. They often delete comments that aren't appropriate for the AskMetaFilter subsite, and usually leave a trace (in the form of a comment/suggestion). MetaTalk (where we are now) is a specific place for discussing the meta aspects of the site, and is better suited for the kudos, suggestions and tangents that go along with this story.
[folks - please take further discussion to MeTa, this is getting way far afield for AskMe, thanks]Anyways, it's a minor point, but I just wanted to point out what was going on for those not familiar with the social norms of MetaFilter and its subsites.
posted by jessamyn at 12:48 PM on May 20 [2 favorites +] [!]
Posted some location info to metatalk. Though I have been cut off, as mentioned above wheels are still turning, communication happening, all possible safeties engaged and there is good reason to hold on to hope for a non-disaster outcome.
posted by fake at 1:48 PM on May 20 [1 favorite +] [!]
[folks, this needs to go to METATALK, not here. Thank you.]
posted by jessamyn at 2:48 PM on May 20 [+] [!]
Honestly, I hope the community ends up being wrong about that, because there are plenty of other women in similarly vulnerable situations who don't have the benefit of an active community of 20k users to help them out.That's how I feel, too.
why do two women on a travel exchange program need an immigration lawyer?Because their visas are tied to a travel/ employment agency that is behaving in a shady fashion.
"Hostess/girlfriend of the thuggish ownerAnd that's an even more subtle form of gradual-descent-into-control than the direct sale that the NYT article talks about, but still illegal.
Bottle waitress
Back room hand jobber
Half-wretched brothel prostitute
Totally wretched junkie/brothel prostitute
That's how you are demoted, then pushed into prostitution when you do not speak English and are illegally in the country."
Posted By: cortex (May 21, 2010 at 8:21 PM)I'm going to assume this is not our cortex, because I really can't see him referring to everybody here as "hysterical chatroom users".
If you read the Metafilter entries carefully you will see that there is no evidence that sex-trafficking or the Russian Mob were involved. These were just two young girls that wanted to go out to a NYC nightclub, and two hundred hysterical chatroom users trying to stop them.
> Bingo, and others who are riding the "We actually don't know if any of this is true" bus [...] Every piece of hard evidence about the situation [...]I don't want to diminish what everyone did, but, surely you have to admit that there are almost no hard facts at all involved in this story?
The women paid their money, and were offered positions as lifeguards in Virginia Beach, Virginia.If that doesn't sound sketchy as hell to you, combined with the midnight nightclub meeting, you are a pretty naive person. There is no fucking way I would countenance such a plan for my daughter, I can tell you.
But then things started getting weird. On the eve of the trip, Reetz says, the job offer was rescinded, and Aloha replaced it with an intermediate one, which didn't pan out either. "Then they told them, 'Just fly to the US and we'll mail you an offer," Reetz recalls.
Which was ridiculous, of course; the women insisted that Aloha send their offer by email instead. But when they arrived in Washington, DC, and checked their inboxes: nothing. They called Aloha and were given a phone number for a guy named George. No last name.
Q: My friend has been asked to go to the Lux Lounge at midnight and talk to some guy called George, what do you think?Does anyone on the staff of MetaFilter feel like defending that in court? There are large numbers of posts which proceed unquestioningly from the assumption that both Aloha and Lux are criminal enterprises.
A: Don't let them go! If they do, they will be imprisoned, beaten, raped, forced into prostitution and quite possibly murdered.
the Aloha "travel agency" attempted to get the girls to fly to San Diego instead. A totally legitimate move, no doubt, given the well-known plethora of hipster hookah bars in that particular border city that are in desperate need of Russian hostesses.If San Diego does indeed have a Russian community and Russian bars and restaurants, does that mean we think it's more likely or less likely that Russian organised crime is involved?
I have lived in the general area of what is now the Lux bar for over 10 years. I see this sort of thing happen every single summer in New York City. "J1" is what people call these girls and the story goes like this:I would disagree with his assertion that it is "probably not trafficking." If you put someone in a situation where the only way they can make money is by stripping ... that's pretty much the definition. Interesting anecdote nonetheless.
They come here on work sponsorships which are almost never really there (they often dont know that). Then one of three things happens -- or all. They end up working in the restaurant business as hostesses, bus "boy" positions, eventually waitresses. They start sleeping with some guy who takes them around, pays for everything, and possibly provides a place to live. If they want to make real money, they start dancing (strip or go-go). At the end of the summer their Visa expires and I'd say about 70% leave and 30% stay.
So... it probably wouldn't have been sex trafficking, this is all way too dramatized. The J1 girls who come here are often offered to dance to make more money. And they either refuse and struggle to find a job in some crappy lounge or restaurant or they go dance and make pretty decent money. I'm not saying that this is a wonderful situation, it makes me hate living in this city, but its so common and a far cry from being locked in a room to be sex slaves.
I known some of these girls that are still here and still dance, and know a few that are still here and still work at lounges. Last year, a friend of mine was walking her dog and met two J1 students on the board walk at Brighton Beach sitting on their luggage. They had to make the same trip from somewhere to New York for a job. Of course the job wasn't really there. My friend let the couple stay in her living room for most of the summer and they eventually found a job at a restaurant.
Living in Brooklyn, this is a fact of live. Its nice that these particular girls have gotten some help, but starting this week "the J1s are coming" and this sort of thing is going to happen a thousand times over in the next couple of weeks to a month. Non of it was surprising to read... which, I guess, is pretty depressing considering that I live in the middle of it.
Automated Clearing House (ACH)But 2-3 days wouldn't really help you any, would it? And I doubt you want to give out your account numbers to internet strangers, no matter how well meaning.
Transfer funds electronically from your Navy Federal checking to a checking at another financial institution-free of charge
Generally takes 2-3 business days for a one-time transfer to be credited to your account.
There is a $2,500 per day limit on the transfer amount. However, there is a $500 per day limit for transfer requests made by phone to third parties.
You will need the Routing Transit Number and the checking account number at the financial institution receiving the ACH credit.
Newsweek: How Metafilter stopped human trafficking.Scroll down to the EXLPORE section.
Re Mefites canceling Paypal payments:on preview: Maybe scody (aka 'The Widow Moneybags') can send her G650 to pick you up! Scody?
- Canceling pending payments at this point must happen on IFDS's end (i.e., Kathrine has to log into her account and cancel each one individually). Those of us who sent payments (allegedly) have our hands tied.
- If IFDS cancels the payments, each person who sent a payment will receive an email saying that the payment has been canceled. Hopefully each person will then turn around and either do a Moneygram/WU on their own, or jump in to a coordinated effort (which I am almost certain some other enterprising Mefite will take care of).
Re IFDS getting Paypal to unfreeze her account:
- According to the guy I talked to, he said that all that had to happen was for IFDS to call them (402-935-2050) and he said that they just needed her to "verify some information" and they would unfreeze the account today. I have no idea if this is really all it will take (I have my doubts), but he claims that it can happen.
NO DANGER DANGER
INACTION Drudge Very Bad
Holiday Things
ACTION Once-in-a-lifetime
Experience for K&S
&
Raised Awareness of Sex Trafficking
In Major Media Outlets
Clearly, whether or not the girls were actually in danger -- which, according to domain experts (as opposed to conspiracy theorists), they were -- we have with our actions achieved the optimal result and thereby maximised happiness. Specifically for the number of cases that I’ve worked, I have not worked any that have been an international state. Every single one of my victims have been either local, from San Diego, or from somewhere within the United States, mostly either a border state or not, that have been brought here by their pimp for purposes of prostitution.
"I think the great majority are domestic trafficking victims. One of our new residents is an international victim and she has had a successful case against her perpetrator. But I think it is very unusual."However, her group's website says
May 1996 San Diego, CAposted by Miko at 9:29 PM on May 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
JapaneseProstitution Scam
3,000 + Mexico, Japan, United States
In a joint investigation, Mexican and American police bust a 10-year old trafficking and
prostitution ring that exploited upwards of 3,000 women. The ring, which operated out of San Diego, Tokyo and Guadalajara, had close ties with the Yakuza, the Japanese mafia. The women were brought to Japan, sold to seedy clubs and forced to cater to the sexual whims of buyers.
August 1999
San Diego, CA San Ysidro
Border Crossing
10+ Russia
Two young Russian women and a Russian-American man were stopped at the US-Mexican
border and accused of using false immigration documents. The incident led to charges against the man and his wife, who stand accused of running an international prostitution ring. According to INS investigators, the couple trafficked women from Moscow to brothels in
Southern, CA.
San Diego Union Tribune, 2004:
A buyer named Gordey Vinitsky arrived around dinner time. He was followed by Komisaruk's husband, Valery, who led Vinitsky to a van in the parking lot. Inside were six young Ukrainian women. Vinitsky bought two of them for $10,000 each. They were delivered to San Diego by boat where Vinitsky claimed his purchases.
they had grown up in a world in which corruption and prostitution are neither uncommon nor poorly understood. They went into the situation with their eyes open, wanting the adventure, believing themselves capable of negotiating whatever obstacles they encountered. They didn’t expect the agency to be on the level. They had considered the possibility that, as women in their early 20s with little or no English, there was a limited range of employment options waiting for them.Sorry if I have a hard time accepting that these kinds of opinions proceed from good faith. It would take a lot for me to believe that a woman who accepted a job as a lifeguard really wanted and expected to be offered a replacement gig as a stripper, and "well, she's Russian" is an especially yucky way to explain a leap like that.
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by DreamerFi at 4:28 AM on May 20, 2010 [25 favorites]