Come on gguys December 28, 2011 9:16 AM   Subscribe

I cracked a joke and it got deleted. Guys, you melted my snowflake.

I'm surprised to see any mention of the phrase "dickwolf" in the Paul Christoforo thread sanitized so thoroughly by the mods. I wrote "God Forbid a dickwolf get between a gamer and his controller," which in short is me tying this incident in a funny way to something else very public that Penny Arcade was involved with in the past. He's a pretty relevant part of both stories.

To me in this thread, it looks like as if its okay to go through Paul Christoforo's dirty laundry, because we haven't done so before; let's get to the bottom of him. But let's not touch Gabe's hamper, because we've already been down that road.. Is that the gist of it? That conversation has already been formulated somewhere else on the site? We should focus on how much of a douche Paul is?

I mean, while posting Paul Christoforo's unrelated domestic violence charge is not considered a derail, you've pruned any tangential mention of the phrase dickwolf. That's pretty rich.

I'm sure it's probably occured to some people that just because Christoforo is such an insane ass, doesn't mean that everyone else involved in the story is perfect. But that point can't even be explored, or even gently teased out, because there is such a tight leash on what can and can't be discussed. You've essentially shaped the conversation, away from something that's fair game and kind of funny to talk about, and more importantly, into something it wasn't. Ick, not a huge fan.

Seems to me sometimes you guys delete way too heavily. Couldn't my joke have stood along with taz's note that followed? Is deleting any evidence of deviation one of the tactics you use to put out fires?
posted by phaedon to MetaFilter-Related at 9:16 AM (128 comments total) 2 users marked this as a favorite

Your joke wasn't particularly funny given that people were already fighting about dickwolves in a thread that wasn't really at all, or should not have been about dickwolves. Mods have deleted dickwolf derails in PA threads before. Just because something else is a derail it doesn't make your joke funny, appropriate, or not a derail.

Now a law and order joke, that would have been a much better idea.
[[law and order noise]]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:22 AM on December 28, 2011 [6 favorites]


I'm surprised to see any mention of the phrase "dickwolf" in the Paul Christoforo thread sanitized so thoroughly by the mods.

A total of seven comments were removed from that thread, only two of which were dickwolf-related stuff. Almost all of the dickwolfery stuff is standing. If anything, I feel like we maybe should have nixed more of the dickwolf derail because, yes, doing a "oh a post related to x, here is another x-related thing that I want to complain about" thing is pretty much a crappy move regardless of the value of x.

I don't love the post in general, I think stuff that ends up in sort of Let's Get 'Em territory is sort of problematic no matter how much of a jerk the person is and we've removed more Christoforo-related stuff than dickwolf related stuff. But the thread is, in fact, about the Ocean/Christoforo mess, not about the dickwolves thing, and the "Penny Arcade? DICKWOLVES RAPE JERKS GRAR" thing has happened in enough threads now that it's really gotten to be a tiring routine.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:23 AM on December 28, 2011 [11 favorites]


doonk doonk
posted by elizardbits at 9:24 AM on December 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


[[law and order noise]]

I believe that's rendered either as "doink doink" or "chung chung".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:24 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


I don't see the Dickwolves connection. The matter here is really about the poorappalling customer service, and Ocean Marketting/Stratagy. Gabe's not as much a part of the story as the person who's reporting it/breaking it. Impugning the credibility of a source only matters as far as the story relies on that source's reliability. There's enough damning evidence here without input from Gabe that I don't think it really matters.

While it's nice that you're aware that you're acting like a special snowflake, you're still acting like a special snowflake (talk about the difference between being sorry and being sorry you got caught!). I know you're butthurt, but there's a whole big Internet out there, and rumors of a world beyond the Internet. Maybe take a step back and ask yourself if this will still matter in a week/month/year? And try to focus on adding relevant content to the thread. Yes, lots of people comment for the lulz. Change happens on the individual level. You can still hold yourself to a higher standard.
posted by Eideteker at 9:29 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


thanks dad.
posted by phaedon at 9:32 AM on December 28, 2011 [7 favorites]


Is deleting any evidence of deviation one of the tactics you use to put out fires?

No. You've been here since 2005 and I suspect you know this. This is just becoming one of those things where Penny Arcade is a sort of big deal on the internet and sometimes noteworthy stuff from there shows up here, on MeFi. And then some people bypass the thread topic to be all LET'S TALK ABOUT DICKWOLVES. The same thing happens occasionally when Givewell is mentioned or other things that are a big deal on MeFi. And if there is a discussion going on about the current topic, as there was in this case, we ask people to not turn it into a thread about a thing from a while ago that only a few people want to discuss. Sometimes, yeah, threads turn into one long jokey riff on some random or vaguely-related topic. This thread wasn't doing that.

I'm with you, the going after Christoforo was getting out of control (and I also didn't like the whole thread much since it seems like jerk vs. jerk to me) so we talked about it, removed a few things along those lines and taz left a note. At the point at which we've sort of politely asked the dickwolf stuff to wind down, that's a decent indication that we'll be a little more likely to delete ongoing dickwolf lulzing or especially "now is a time to talk about how Penny Arcade handles rape" hwich is really not what the thread was about.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:34 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


WTf is a dickwolf?
posted by dfriedman at 9:34 AM on December 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


$20 SAIT
posted by exogenous at 9:35 AM on December 28, 2011 [11 favorites]


dfriedman: this may be helpful.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:36 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


A man responsible for over forty years worth of cold-hearted murders.
posted by griphus at 9:36 AM on December 28, 2011 [7 favorites]


I've gone full circle and now I feel bad for ChRistoforno. He is just trying to run his business and score juice for his next cycle and nerd bullies descended on him. Guy is going to have to change his name or something.
posted by Ad hominem at 9:38 AM on December 28, 2011


I was sorta put off by Taz's note, because I think it's valid when attacking the character of one side of a story to bring up really awful behavior by the other. And I doubt every participant in that or this thread knew about the Dickwolves thing - I had forgotten it when I read the links until it came up in the comments.

I don't care about your dickwolf joke and wouldn't want the thread to crash on it, but the mod comment felt like a "We don't talk about Dickwolves anymore" directive, which I wouldn't support.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 9:39 AM on December 28, 2011 [6 favorites]


I think there's actually some relation to the dickwolves thing -- it's another instance where some of the hordes of PA devotees rallied and attacked someone that PA folks disagreed with.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:40 AM on December 28, 2011 [5 favorites]


> I've gone full circle and now I feel bad for ChRistoforno. He is just trying to run his business and score juice for his next cycle and nerd bullies descended on him. Guy is going to have to change his name or something.

Pretty much, yeah.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:40 AM on December 28, 2011


For some reason I was trying to think of Paul's name in the shower today, and I kept going "Christomofo?"
posted by desjardins at 9:40 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


(but most of the dickwolf-related comments i saw were kind of deraily)
posted by rmd1023 at 9:40 AM on December 28, 2011

I've gone full circle and now I feel bad for ChRistoforno. He is just trying to run his business and score juice for his next cycle and nerd bullies descended on him. Guy is going to have to change his name or something.
No one is going to care about this in three weeks. Does anyone remember Alyssa Bereznak?
posted by delmoi at 9:42 AM on December 28, 2011


(I should say I'm specifically talking about Taz's comment, there are still on-topic, reasonable dickwolf comments in the thread. So the moderation I've observed has seemed fine to me, I just don't like what I felt was implied by that comment.)

Also, if I never type the word 'dickwolf' again it will be too soon.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 9:44 AM on December 28, 2011


Yeah, I was sort of annoyed reading down the thread to see Taz's request, since I was fuelled with dickwolf-based rage and mentally composing a comment. But the comment would have been shit and I would have deleted it before posting for being unhelpful and ranty and really, those of us who have been permanently put off the duo and who find it hard to take anything they do in good faith since the episode aren't going to change the minds of those who haven't.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 9:47 AM on December 28, 2011


And I doubt every participant in that or this thread knew about the Dickwolves thing - I had forgotten it when I read the links until it came up in the comments.

It's not like someone has to compulsively educate them about it though.
posted by smackfu at 9:48 AM on December 28, 2011


Does anyone remember Alyssa Bereznak?

The name, no, the incident, yes. It's the second link for her on Google, and if I were in the dating market I'd stay far away from her.
posted by desjardins at 9:48 AM on December 28, 2011


It's not like someone has to compulsively educate them about it though.


I'm not sure I get what you're saying. Do you think it's not relevant to the discussion?
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 9:49 AM on December 28, 2011


> Do you think it's not relevant to the discussion?

I took that to mean that another user doesn't necessarily need to post an amped-up write up about a controversial internet subject when the googles exist.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:52 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


Is your premise that it's defacto relevant to any Penny Arcade discussion?
posted by smackfu at 9:52 AM on December 28, 2011


(Because then you are getting into the area of "people need to know about this!" and that's probably not a good motivation to post comments.)
posted by smackfu at 9:54 AM on December 28, 2011


Yeah it is going to be rough for the guy in a world where people google you before they hire you. He was kind of a jackass, and strangely inept at his chosen profession, but hardly a monster.

Is there any way to add a glossary of terms to all posts? We could include "privilege" "dickwolves" and other relevant bits just to level set before discussion.
posted by Ad hominem at 9:54 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


Is there any way to add a glossary of terms to all posts?

If everybody here just stopped using site-specific in-joke jargon, we wouldn't have to.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 10:00 AM on December 28, 2011


"thanks dad."

Let's hug it out, son.

"but the mod comment felt like a "We don't talk about Dickwolves anymore" directive, which I wouldn't support."

No, it was a "stop derailing the thread, for example, with dickwolf jokes" directive. If you can meaningfully discuss how dickwolves relate to the matter at hand (like rmd's comment connecting it to the last time PA fans stormed the Bastille over something), then by all means do so.

NOTE: The Shadow Mods do not speak for the actual site mods, or even other Shadow Mods. And the actual mods (as in "vs. rockers") are right out.
posted by Eideteker at 10:00 AM on December 28, 2011


"No one is going to care about this in three weeks. Does anyone remember Alyssa Bereznak?"

Yes. (eponysterically, even)
posted by Eideteker at 10:01 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


"oh a post related to x, here is another x-related thing that I want to complain about"

I don't think it's quite that cut-and-dried, since it's about Penny Arcade using their enormous megaphone and wielding their uber-loyal fan base in a way that makes some people uncomfortable. I read it more like, "I'm not cool with the way x is acting here, in part because of how they behaved in this other situation." If the character or integrity of PA is under discussion, and is relevant to the subject at hand (note: I'm not arguing that it is, necessarily), isn't it valid to bring up evidence that relates to one's position?

In any case, if a particular person/group/organization has become notorious for a particular incident, is it always deletable when that incident comes up in a discussion about that person/group/organization? If someone posts about Tonya Harding, are any comments referencing Nancy Kerrigan going to be deleted as "been there, done that"? I mean, there are obviously some people whose stink is going to follow them wherever they go.

It seems like one's opinion on this issue depends a lot on one's opinion of PA. If you have a favorite uncle who's a hilarious jokester, then to you he'll always be your hilarious jokester uncle, and why does your sister have to keep bringing up that time at Thanksgiving when he got drunk and grabbed her boob.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 10:01 AM on December 28, 2011 [11 favorites]


Is your premise that it's defacto relevant to any Penny Arcade discussion?


That sounds alarmist (yuck yuck).

I think it's relevant to a discussion about character when the Penny Arcade folks are one of the two main parties. I get what you're saying about "People need to know this!", however.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 10:02 AM on December 28, 2011


"If everybody here just stopped using site-specific in-joke jargon, we wouldn't have to."

This request smacks of privilege. Which is why I'm introducing my new cereal for MeFites: Privilege Smacks. No sugar, because there's no sugarcoating it. Look for it in invisible backpacks everywhere, coming in 2012!
posted by Eideteker at 10:03 AM on December 28, 2011 [8 favorites]


I was sorta put off by Taz's note, because I think it's valid when attacking the character of one side of a story to bring up really awful behavior by the other.

Isn't this the very definition of the Chewbacca Defense?

"Politician X says Politician Y takes bribes from Company A. Well, our sources tell us that Politician X has been funded by special interests!"

But wait. That doesn't make Politician Y any less worthy of scorn...

Now, look at the monkey.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:05 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


that whole thing was just a bunch of bullied nerds who decided they were going to gang up and bully a bully. A whole lot of rage and anger directed at one low life d-bag who wasn't worth the time, while the rest of the world burns.
posted by empath at 10:06 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


If someone posts about Tonya Harding, are any comments referencing Nancy Kerrigan going to be deleted as "been there, done that"?

I guessed your age to the year, based on this reference.
posted by empath at 10:07 AM on December 28, 2011 [10 favorites]


All I know is, I just went to the library to return some stuff and this was prominently displayed right there where anyone could see it. So much for the "go outside" tactic.
posted by Wolfdog at 10:08 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


The Shadow Mods do not speak for the actual site mods, or even other Shadow Mods.

What are Shadow Mods?

I was sorta put off by Taz's note

I am still cracking up over the note Taz left when she deleted my post from earlier today.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:10 AM on December 28, 2011 [7 favorites]


I don't think it's quite that cut-and-dried, since it's about Penny Arcade using their enormous megaphone and wielding their uber-loyal fan base in a way that makes some people uncomfortable.

Sure, and I think someone sort of cracking into that with a bit of care and nuance would make total sense. I just don't think that that's really what comments like "Gosh, if only the Penny Arcade guys treated the idea of rape as repugnantly as they do the idea of some guy being a dickhole on the internet to another guy." or "I mean, they aren't Hitler and bin Laden, but..." are accomplishing.

The distance between "bringing up something tangentially related in a way that will improve the discussion" and "bringing up something tangentially related because Those Guys Suck" is the important one here, in other words. Good discussion put in clear context is great, but hobbyhorsing is not so much and people need to make the effort to do the former rather than the latter.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:12 AM on December 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


that whole thing was just a bunch of bullied nerds who decided they were going to gang up and bully a bully. A whole lot of rage and anger directed at one low life d-bag who wasn't worth the time, while the rest of the world burns.

I'm not sure whether you're talking about the dickwolf drama where PA was the bully-being-bullied or this current drama where PA is the nerds. Imo both are both in both. In any event, the internet vengeance machine can be unfair, too swift to destroy and too long in holding a grudge, but it is a sort of justice in a world that before had none, albeit more of an Eye-for-an-eye Furies type than a civilized scales-of-blind Athena type. Someday we will have our Orestes, but until then, O You Ancient Ones, Up and be doing //
That which alone is yours, the deed of hell!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:18 AM on December 28, 2011


Brandon Blatcher: What are Shadow Mods?

I think it refers to really annoying people who often act like they work here, but their dream will thankfully never be a reality.
posted by gman at 10:18 AM on December 28, 2011 [5 favorites]


Who knows what mischief lurks in the hearts of trolls?

The Shadow Mods.
posted by griphus at 10:19 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


I think it refers to really annoying people who often act like they work here, but their dream will thankfully never be a reality.

{Let's try not derail this with with talk of sex swings and whiskey}
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:23 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


"What are Shadow Mods?"

There is even less of such a thing than any cabal, of which there is also none.

Also, I'm failing to see how "Hey, Internet community, let's gang up on PA a little since there was this other time when they ganged up on people, via their Internet community," is an adequate defense. For the lulz or otherwise.

And believe me, I know lulz—from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few lulz in my time.
posted by Eideteker at 10:24 AM on December 28, 2011


Just tell me who we are ganging up on. I don't like the sound of shadow mods or dickwolves so ganging up on either of them is ok with me.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:27 AM on December 28, 2011


Wait, in this joke who is the "dickwolf" and why would they be characterized as such?
posted by Hoopo at 10:33 AM on December 28, 2011


scales-of-blind Athena

I'm pretty sure you meant Themis there.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:37 AM on December 28, 2011


Metafilter: I cracked a joke and it got deleted.
posted by matlock expressway at 10:40 AM on December 28, 2011


Guys, you melted my snowflake.

By the way, is this anything like melting your popsicle? Because that puts an entire different slant on this MeTa.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:48 AM on December 28, 2011


Wait, in this joke who is the "dickwolf" and why would they be characterized as such?

Dickwolves
posted by empath at 10:57 AM on December 28, 2011


WTf is a dickwolf?

There was a Penny Arcade comic where the subject was the inherit brokenness of video game morality systems - in particular, systems where you, the hero, have to rescue 10 hostages (out of however many) and how absolutely non-heroic it is to be standing 10 feet from hostage number 11 and to say, "Oh, hey - there's my quota. It's Miller time!"

In the comic the slave/would be rescuee is explaining to the "hero" how horrible things are for him and this includes being "raped to sleep by the dickwolves" every night on top of other fantasy RPG slave labor in a mine run by quasi-demonic entities horrors.

That the "hero" was a sort of anthropomorphized wolf in this particular strip is, IMHO, interesting.

Anyhow, some people voiced the opinion this was in bad taste. Some people voiced the opinion that this was "pro-rape". Then the people who were sort of Penny Arcade uber alles got involved and it spiraled downward from there.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 10:58 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


Then the people who were sort of Penny Arcade uber alles got involved and it spiraled downward from there.

Not to refight old battles, but I think the main problem was that Penny Arcade themselves upped the ante by making dickwolves t-shirts, etc, instead of doing anything to defuse the situation, or just ignoring it.
posted by empath at 11:01 AM on December 28, 2011 [5 favorites]


Wait, in this joke who is the "dickwolf" and why would they be characterized as such?

Dude, don't you watch Law and Order? What?
posted by The Bellman at 11:07 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


Yeah, the Big Issue was all the flame-fanning and dismissive snarkyness re: rape and triggers and so on on behalf of Mike Krahulik/PA.
posted by griphus at 11:11 AM on December 28, 2011


They pretty much reacted exactly like the Ocean Marrkettingg guy to criticisms from their customers (in this case, PAX ticket and merchandise buyers), but it was straight-talkin' dudes shooting down PC feminazis, so the crowd reaction went rather in the other direction.
posted by emmtee at 11:16 AM on December 28, 2011 [8 favorites]


here's a pretty good overview of the dickwolf debacle, with links all over the net for various responses and flame-fanning and such.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:27 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


I was reading Packing for Mars this morning and was reminded that dolphin penises are prehensile. This got to be a problem when people paid to swim with dolphins and found a penis wrapped their ankle.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:39 AM on December 28, 2011


No, I mean I remember that thread and that incident, but I don't really get the joke in that got deleted--are the Penny Arcade guys or Christoforo or someone else the ones getting between a gamer and the controller, and who is getting "raped to sleep"? I mean, all I can hear is "WOOSH" over here.
posted by Hoopo at 11:43 AM on December 28, 2011


And believe me, I know lulz—from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few lulz in my time.

Eideteker, it is not every time I see the word "lulz" that I have to associate it with the Dutch word "lul". But um, this time, I did...
posted by likeso at 11:43 AM on December 28, 2011


here's a pretty good overview of the dickwolf debacle, with links all over the net for various responses and flame-fanning and such.

Wow. That's terrible stuff. I didn't like this Ocean Marketing thread that much to begin with and don't think the comments relevant to this other issue belong there, but man it makes even the "good guys" look like huge jerks.
posted by sweetkid at 11:47 AM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


hey, just to address the original post a bit, all the original comments referencing the "dickwolves" thing stayed. None of them were deleted, so absolutely not "sanitized." Two were deleted after I left the note about not derailing into a Dickwolves thread, one of which was yours. You also say "Couldn't my joke have stood along with taz's note that followed?" but your comment followed my note, not the other way around.

You also say, "while posting Paul Christoforo's unrelated domestic violence charge is not considered a derail, you've pruned any tangential mention of the phrase dickwolf. That's pretty rich," which isn't true. I deleted the domestic violence links that I saw, but I'm not on duty 24/7. None of us are, and it's not possible to have a seamless transition where the next person waking up doesn't have to spend a goodly amount of time reading a long thread to try to get the gist of what crappy stuff might crop up.

I asked that we not do that sort of thing, but when it came up again, I wasn't watching the thread because I was off, and buying groceries. That doesn't mean it's okay, it just means that it happened and some moderator wasn't sitting there monitoring every comment in that thread at that very moment.

We try to catch up with each other, either in emails or via moderator notes, but trying to cover every situation in every contententious post would be self-defeating. Every moderator that wakes up has to negotiate a ton of contact list emails to see what has been happening, as well as Metafilter and/or personal mefi-related mail, plus check the flag queue, check the sites to see what is going on generally, look out for comment spammers, and answer questions that have popped up in Metatalk. Reading another moderator's detailed CliffNotes for half a dozen threads isn't a thing that can scale well in this setting.

If you see something that seems like a bad thing, a heads-up via the contact form is a really, really good way to get someone to look at that. The accusation that we're leaving some things because we're "shaping a thread" is assuming way, way too much about the time we have to spare, even we if we were each trying to use Mod Powers to make discussions turn out in ways that we each would individually prefer.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:55 AM on December 28, 2011 [6 favorites]


the main problem was that Penny Arcade themselves upped the ante

Probably true, but, well, you know how well the blame the victim rape defense goes over with the non-neanderthal crowd? Imagine that any time any act of violence was perpetrated some clown got put on network TV to blame all women everywhere and demand restrictions on women that made Saudi Arabia look quite liberal by comparison? Because that's pretty much how CNN inviting Jack Thompson to speak on the Virginia Tech shootings probably felt to gamers.

Upping the ante was the only tool in the Penny Arcade box until some time very recently. It's not surprising that everything looks like a nail to them.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:57 AM on December 28, 2011


it makes even the "good guys" look like huge jerks.

Yeah to me that was one of the interesting things about the whole new thread. The PA guys can be jerks sometimes, but are also much beloved and have a fan base in the "Force to be reckoned with" category. This guy was a jerk to them (and I wasn't entirely sure what he did - said he would sell something by a date? didn't update a website? was a poor communicator?) so they got their nerd rage out on him by setting their nerd posse on him? Sort of interesting all around. I was more concerned that the MeFi thread not turn into some internet vigilante stuff on its own.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:59 AM on December 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


Wow, people will argue about anything to avoid interacting with their families during the holidays, huh?
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:03 PM on December 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


you know how well the blame the victim rape defense goes over with the non-neanderthal crowd?

It often goes over depressingly well, actually. Unless you count hordes of bezerker internet fans as "neanderthal", which, well, one could.
posted by rmd1023 at 12:04 PM on December 28, 2011


Imagine that any time any act of violence was perpetrated some clown got put on network TV to blame all women everywhere and demand restrictions on women that made Saudi Arabia look quite liberal by comparison? Because that's pretty much how CNN inviting Jack Thompson to speak on the Virginia Tech shootings probably felt to gamers.

wat. I didn't know that gamers were this incredibly oppressed group, and I didn't know that threatening to ban video games was equivalent to sexual violence. The right to play video games is equivalent to basic human rights? Surely that can't be what you meant, so can you rephrase?
posted by desjardins at 12:05 PM on December 28, 2011 [11 favorites]


[removed all references to "Shadow Mods", let's not pretend that there are any fake mods aside from the Astral Mod, kthxbye]

Everyone please pretend that all those comments are deleted OK?
posted by Meatbomb at 12:06 PM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


> Wow, people will argue about anything to avoid interacting with their families during the holidays, huh?

That or avoid doing end of year employee evaluations.
posted by Burhanistan at 12:10 PM on December 28, 2011


"No one is going to care about this in three weeks. Does anyone remember Alyssa Bereznak?"

I don't. But the internet does. Oh yes, the internet remembers everything.
posted by Splunge at 12:43 PM on December 28, 2011


Mods (preferably a "new" one) please delete this comment so I can start a MetaTalk thread about it.
posted by The Deej at 12:56 PM on December 28, 2011


That or avoid doing end of year employee evaluations.

Speaking as someone who abandoned management for the peace of being an individual contributor again, may I offer my ... Well, unfortunately not my condolences. Honestly it's just my best Nelson laugh. Ha ha!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:03 PM on December 28, 2011


If you see something that seems like a bad thing, a heads-up via the contact form is a really, really good way to get someone to look at that. The accusation that we're leaving some things because we're "shaping a thread" is assuming way, way too much about the time we have to spare, even we if we were each trying to use Mod Powers to make discussions turn out in ways that we each would individually prefer.

Just for the record, I headed over to MetaTalk per cortex's request, and "shaping a thread" has more to do with effect than intent. While it's interesting that you have lots of things to do, I'm not sure why my cucumber jokes stay and my dickwolf jokes don't. Both are technically derails. But I guess one of them is part of a bottom-of-the-barrel contributive pattern that you are trying to suppress.

As for the "being here since 2005" quip, let the record show I've never been a huge fan of comment moderation. But you're right, my queef did come after your note in-thread, thanks for pointing that out. I did not notice it. Let the grand experiment continue.
posted by phaedon at 1:04 PM on December 28, 2011


Your pardon?
posted by griphus at 1:05 PM on December 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


The accusation that we're leaving some things because we're "shaping a thread" is assuming way, way too much about the time we have to spare, even we if we were each trying to use Mod Powers to make discussions turn out in ways that we each would individually prefer.

The conspiracy goes far, far deeper - unleash the Shadow Mods!

*drums in the deep can be heard*
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:19 PM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


I was equating it redirecting blame from the perpetrators of violence to some other group that because that is precisely what it is. Going on a shooting rampage would be the equivalent of sexual violence. PAX is the equivalent of Slut Walk and Jack Thompson is the equivalent of every neanderthal that has ever said "well if she hadn't been wearing such a short skirt...." Except Thompson gets to read his prepared screed on CNN and will apparently try to have you prosecuted for racketeering if you call him out for being a neanderthal.

I think you could make the case that the outright illegalization of an entire medium expression and the "re-education" of those involved would kind of brush up against a human right or two, but, as I said, it's gotten air time on major news networks.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 1:20 PM on December 28, 2011


When one out of every six video game players is arrested for playing video games you could make that case, sure. Except they're not and the idea that an anti-rape rally is equivalent to a video game convention is dumbfounding.
posted by griphus at 1:29 PM on December 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


If everybody here just stopped using site-specific in-joke jargon, we wouldn't have to.

You think "dickwolves" and "privilege" are site-specific in-joke jargon?!
posted by kmz at 1:36 PM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


But I guess one of them is part of a bottom-of-the-barrel contributive pattern that you are trying to suppress.

They generally try to stop threads from turning into fight-y messes, and bringing up dickwolves meant that the whole thread was going to be about dickwolves and nothing else.
posted by empath at 1:37 PM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


PAX is the equivalent of Slut Walk

Braincrash.
posted by Artw at 1:39 PM on December 28, 2011 [10 favorites]


Probably true, but, well, you know how well the blame the victim rape defense goes over with the non-neanderthal crowd? Imagine that any time any act of violence was perpetrated some clown got put on network TV to blame all women everywhere and demand restrictions on women that made Saudi Arabia look quite liberal by comparison? Because that's pretty much how CNN inviting Jack Thompson to speak on the Virginia Tech shootings probably felt to gamers.

I was equating it redirecting blame from the perpetrators of violence to some other group that because that is precisely what it is. Going on a shooting rampage would be the equivalent of sexual violence. PAX is the equivalent of Slut Walk and Jack Thompson is the equivalent of every neanderthal that has ever said "well if she hadn't been wearing such a short skirt...." Except Thompson gets to read his prepared screed on CNN and will apparently try to have you prosecuted for racketeering if you call him out for being a neanderthal.

What? What does any of this have anything to do with the dickwolves debacle?
posted by kmz at 1:41 PM on December 28, 2011


What? What does any of this have anything to do with the dickwolves debacle?

Métequitte Guide rule #403:
There is no such thing as a derail in MetaTalk.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:57 PM on December 28, 2011


Of course, but my impression was that they were trying to to make some kind of analogy with DW and it's just fucking impossible to understand. Do they think Jack Thompson was the one calling PA out? I don't know. I'm just so fucking confused.
posted by kmz at 2:06 PM on December 28, 2011


I'm with kmz, it's not that it's a derail, it just kinda doesn't make any sense.
posted by sweetkid at 2:09 PM on December 28, 2011


Considering the bannings/flameouts of the past few weeks, would this be a bad time to start a MeFite 'dead pool' for 2012?

Or would that be in tremendous poor taste?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:21 PM on December 28, 2011


Fair enough. Also I can't figure out how to spell Métiquette so it looks right. Métaquette? Métequette? Métaetaquit?

Or would that be in tremendous poor taste?

Looking for poor taste? You've come to the right thread!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:23 PM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


Starting a MeFite dead pool is exactly like Slutwalk.
posted by Artw at 2:24 PM on December 28, 2011


Stupid shit like equating PAX to Slut Walk is pretty good proof that dismissing sexual violence goes down pretty well, actually, even with the "non-neanderthal" crowd.

Jesus Christ, and here I didn't think anything could get me more angry today than having to study the tax code during my time off of work.
posted by Phire at 2:32 PM on December 28, 2011 [13 favorites]


There is no such thing as a derail in MetaTalk.
This seems especially true lately. It is really nice that the mod team strives to be as open and communicative as they can be and that we have a space for hashing out site norms. Unfortunately it seems to encourage endless kvetching about minor issues and long derails.
posted by soelo at 2:35 PM on December 28, 2011


I've been to Métiquette. Kind of cold this time of year, but the poutine is excellent.
posted by desjardins at 2:36 PM on December 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


Unfortunately it seems to encourage endless kvetching about minor issues and long derails.

So long as it encourages less of that sort of thing on the Blue.
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


As for the "being here since 2005" quip, let the record show I've never been a huge fan of comment moderation. But you're right, my queef did come after your note in-thread, thanks for pointing that out. I did not notice it. Let the grand experiment continue.

Man, you really weren't kidding about your special snowflake being melted, were you?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:39 PM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


On a somewhat lighter note...

Your pardon?

Seems like a good candidate for Damn You Auto Correct!
posted by kmz at 2:40 PM on December 28, 2011


What? What does any of this have anything to do with the dickwolves debacle?

My original point was merely that the Penny Arcade guys have a big chip on their shoulder from way back (I don't know about them, but I heard my first "video games will destroy our youth" screed in 1978) and tend to be all in your face because back in the day, bravado was pretty much all they had. As they've gotten to be more mainstream, their failure to use tools other than being in your face has not served them well.

Later I was accused of suggesting that saying bad things about video gamers was equivalent to rape so I gave the example of Virginia Tech and Thompson going on TV to blame people playing video games for the tragedy. Gunning down 32 people in cold blood, I would think, is sufficiently heinous to compare to all manner of unpleasantness.

Rather that getting all GRAR!!!! about what seemed like a pretty blatant strawman argument, I made a flippant comparison between PAX and slutwalk. Mea culpa. I do find it interesting that slutwalk seems to come from exactly the same school of in your face that the Penny Arcade guys are so fond of.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 2:46 PM on December 28, 2011


Case closed!

DOINK DOINK
posted by Artw at 2:48 PM on December 28, 2011


I do find it interesting that slutwalk seems to come from exactly the same school of in your face that the Penny Arcade

And that, boys and girls, is how you start a proper derail.

Go go, Kid Charlemagne!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:50 PM on December 28, 2011


Yes, a person oblivious to the intent of Slut Walk would find that interesting.
posted by griphus at 2:50 PM on December 28, 2011 [3 favorites]


DOINK DOINK, people, DOINK DOINK!
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on December 28, 2011 [1 favorite]


GOES TO CHARACTER YOUR HONOR
posted by griphus at 2:54 PM on December 28, 2011 [6 favorites]


Considering the bannings/flameouts of the past few weeks, would this be a bad time to start a MeFite 'dead pool' for 2012?

Or would that be in tremendous poor taste?


Poor taste. We had three members die in 2011. Maybe call it the "flameout pool"?
posted by mlis at 2:55 PM on December 28, 2011


Maybe just don't have one at all, if we're voting.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:59 PM on December 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


there's also the fact that you can just...not be a gamer. pretty hard for women to stop being women.
posted by the young rope-rider at 2:59 PM on December 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


But can you not be a dick?
posted by Artw at 3:09 PM on December 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


*circus music starts playing*
Looks like this thread just went around THE CARUSO-EL
---sunglasses--
YEEEEeeaaaAHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhh
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:14 PM on December 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


I believe that the people you are arguing against would say that you can always choose not to wear short skirts, and SlutWalk is arguing that they shouldn't have to do that in order to avoid rape. So...where does your point about 'anyone can just not game' fit in to that debate?
posted by jacalata at 3:35 PM on December 28, 2011


Because women are blamed for being raped regardless of what they were wearing at the time. Sometimes they had it coming because they were "being a bitch", sometimes "you could tell she wanted it", sometimes she dared go into a bar and order a drink. If not wearing short skirts could guard against sexual violence, then there would be no sexual violence in the middle east.

The right of women to wear whatever they want is only one small component of the Slut Walk. The much larger component is the point that focusing on clothing as a way to guard against rape is tantamount to moving the goal posts off the field and into the stands.
posted by Phire at 3:46 PM on December 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


tremendous poor taste, then. thanks!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:48 PM on December 28, 2011


I mean, while posting Paul Christoforo's unrelated domestic violence charge is not considered a derail, you've pruned any tangential mention of the phrase dickwolf. That's pretty rich.

I believe the domestic violence thing was, in fact, considered inappropriate.

I made a glib comment about the domestic violence thing, with a link to a previous comment and the arrest document on the same - Taz deleted it, and they were right to do so. I would personally love to see this Christoforos douche burned at the stake, but everyone should leave his wife/girlfriend out of it.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:50 PM on December 28, 2011


women aren't oppressed because of what we wear, we're oppressed because we're women.

gamers aren't oppressed, and if they were that would be wrong, but it would also not rise to the level of gender oppression in its near inescapability.

it is a massively stupid comparison on multiple levels.

any time anyone compares being a part of a fandom or liking to go for walks or really enjoying dairy products to being a member of an oppressed class it is stupid and privileged.

I can't speak knowledgeably about or on the behalf of slutwalk because I didn't educate myself about it and still haven't done so.
posted by the young rope-rider at 3:51 PM on December 28, 2011 [8 favorites]


*sipsip*Ahhh! You know what this milkshake reminds me of? Being an oppressed slave-servant in ancient Athens during the 5th century B.C..
posted by P.o.B. at 5:04 PM on December 28, 2011


You're right, it doesn't make sense.
posted by P.o.B. at 5:05 PM on December 28, 2011


What flavour is it?
posted by subbes at 5:44 PM on December 28, 2011


subbes: What flavour is it?

I dunno what it's called, but it's got a lot of nuts in it.
posted by gman at 5:50 PM on December 28, 2011


Not to refight old battles, but I think the main problem was that Penny Arcade themselves upped the ante by making dickwolves t-shirts, etc, instead of doing anything to defuse the situation, or just ignoring it.

The main problem was that there exist people cretinous enough to look at the original cartoon and say to themselves, "Why, a cartoon that criticises the morality of videogames by protraying a so-called hero as indifferent to the sufferings of people victimised by rape, which is portrayed as the worst part of the victims' ordeals, is pro-rape".
posted by rodgerd at 7:04 PM on December 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


Eh, a little from column A, a little from column B. The original "controversy" was dumb, but they handled it terribly.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:38 PM on December 28, 2011 [4 favorites]


I am lactose intolerant and P.o.B. is oppressing me.
posted by desjardins at 8:27 PM on December 28, 2011


I don't understand why there is a Meta callout demanding the right to post more Dickwolf jokes. Is this the hill you want to fight and die on?
posted by KokuRyu at 8:29 PM on December 28, 2011 [2 favorites]


I wrote "God Forbid a dickwolf get between a gamer and his controller,

That's not all you wrote. You also wrote a whiny screed that finished with "fuck this website".

I rather suspect you just want to get your fight on, rather than actually address any actual issue.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:25 PM on December 28, 2011


This callout is both a real shame and a real gem. It's a real shame because of some stupid "Dickwolf" derail that is a derail in the most classical sense of the word.

However, the callout itself is agem because it brought my attention to a very interesting story with a lot of twists and turns.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:22 PM on December 28, 2011


I believe that the people you are arguing against would say that you can always choose not to wear short skirts, and SlutWalk is arguing that they shouldn't have to do that in order to avoid rape. So...where does your point about 'anyone can just not game' fit in to that debate?

I think it probably doesn't fit anywhere into that? Because "if women don't want to be raped, they can choose not to wear short skirts" is a ludicrous attempt to retriangulate what really should be a pretty simple position - if women don't want to be raped, men can help by not raping them. It's not worth treating as a point-counterpoint.

Where it probably does fit is into a continuum of sexual harassment, online and offline, that does tie into the message of SlutWalk: that women should be able to be women in public spaces without fear of harassment. Which, dovetailing beautifully, arguably ties into the Dickwolves situation because the response of a small but very vocal segment of the readership of Penny Arcade responded to criticism of Penny Arcade by rape survivors by throwing the word and concept of rape at them as hard as they could, in an attempt to remind them of their place in the world.

(Worth noting that SlutWalk isn't so called because the participants dress as sluts, incidentally, FWVO slut - some wear sexy outfits, some don't. It's so-called because a specific police officer told a group of women that they should avoid "dressing like sluts" to avoid being raped. And its response is that women should be able to walk down the street dressed however they like without being raped (a) and that women who have been raped should not have to prove to anyone, and especially the police, that they were not inviting it by their mode of dress.)
posted by running order squabble fest at 3:44 AM on December 29, 2011 [9 favorites]


I would personally love to see this Christoforos douche burned at the stake, but everyone should leave his wife/girlfriend out of it.

He was actually throwing them out there as a defense to protect himself after he'd dug himself into a very deep hole. This is very much a standard tactic for thugs.

That and the whole deluded sense of self-importance, I'm getting a very strong smell of narcissistic personality disorder here.
posted by panboi at 5:11 AM on December 29, 2011


...I heard my first "video games will destroy our youth" screed in 1978...

Are you actually saying that it didn't destroy our youth?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:57 AM on December 29, 2011


cortex: "Maybe just don't have one at all, if we're voting."

I was poking around for unrelated reasons and found this page on the Wiki that seems to serve similar purposes. Kinda useless though since people tend to come and go under unannounced user name changes and it doesn't account for all the little people who leave in a huff without anyone noticing or caring (like me!)
posted by charred husk at 6:57 AM on December 29, 2011


Yes, a person oblivious to the intent of Slut Walk would find that interesting.

Seriously dude, I said I was being glib. Can we drop the ad hominem now, or would you like to get the dog pile back there where I was insufficiently opposed to sexual violence because I likened it to gunning down 32 people in cold blood.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:35 AM on December 29, 2011


I was poking around for unrelated reasons and found this page on the Wiki that seems to serve similar purposes.

I'm not convinced that page serves a whole lot of use, but there is a at least a difference between "account closure/departure noted for the record" and "hey I bet X will flame out or get banned this year" in terms of the overall dynamic. Record-keeping vs. what is hard not to see as essentially mean-spirited betting-on-people stuff, basically.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:15 AM on December 29, 2011


I always thought that the Shadow Mods were the opponents of the Vorlon Mods. Have I misunderstood?
posted by bakerina at 12:35 PM on December 29, 2011


DOINK DOINK
posted by Artw at 12:37 PM on December 29, 2011


> Go go, Kid Charlemagne!

Don't you mean: Get along, get along Kid Charlemagne!?
posted by bukvich at 12:52 PM on December 29, 2011 [1 favorite]


Dickwolves---sounds like a band.
posted by stormpooper at 7:33 AM on December 30, 2011


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