How about a call for redesign submissions?

August 9, 2002 9:30 PM

After reading this previous thread, I started thinking. How about a call for redesign submissions? How about the ability to customize and select our own designs? I am aware of this feature, but I mean, completely different layouts. There are many, many, many, many css resources with solutions that are more than robust enough for metafilter's basic one column layout. Is this inappropriate for me to ask? I would like to see a Metafilter with several layouts to choose from, first on my list, would be coldchef's; just cause he's so friggin funny.
posted by folktrash to feature requests at 9:30 PM (29 comments total)

mathowie's reasons for the current layout for the site are pretty solid. CSS solutions as a rule include too many browser workarounds. Also, redesigning a site is as much work on the users as it is on the designer. It forces users to have to relearn what they have already learned.
posted by eyeballkid at 9:48 PM on August 9, 2002

Hmmm. I have not read the book linked to above. I have many thoughts regarding the "workaround" comment, however, the beauty of multiple layouts is not having to change it for the user at all. The current mefi blue would be style #1, and only if one went to change it would it ever change. Dig?
posted by folktrash at 9:51 PM on August 9, 2002

I started planning on allowing for different stylesheets or custom styles back when the site started, but I always thought it was too much work to ask that users learn and tweak CSS files in order to view the site, so I went with the limited customizability instead.

I could still add this ability, but it's pretty low priority, as there are probably 50 people that would use it.

If you really want it now, you can create your own local stylesheet, and tell your browser to override the present styles.
posted by mathowie at 10:06 PM on August 9, 2002

And maybe Matt is a more evolved soul than I am, and maybe I'm old-fashioned, what with the ease of CSS, so everyone can make everything suit themselves, but the idea of other people changing my site designs tends to make me really rather PO'd.

Sort of like grilling up a really fine piece of steak, only to have your loser guests pour ketchup all over it.
posted by crunchland at 10:43 PM on August 9, 2002

I'm with crunchland.
posted by evanizer at 11:54 PM on August 9, 2002

With the local style question, wouldn't that mean that my local sheet would override every site's sheet right? Not just mefi specifically. ?

This was just a fleeting thought, and I thought this the best place to mention it. I wasn't thinking of the work, or of ketchup, just of some kind of weird sub-sommunity that evolved out of people all being able to choose their own mefi look. I saw it added to the user page... see what coldchef or starvos is using. Then archives of all time favorites, and lists of most currently used; All the while good ol' blue being right near the top.

But anyway, maybe it's not for mefi.

Before I let it slide - it would not force users to learn and tweak css. Only those geeks, like me, who already do it. And besides, all those who don't know it, but want a different layout, could just pick from the archives, or top lists, or user profile pages, they wouldn't have to make their own.

But againyway, that's it.
posted by folktrash at 12:42 AM on August 10, 2002

With the local style question, wouldn't that mean that my local sheet would override every site's sheet right? Not just mefi specifically.

That's the way most browser's implement it. The workaround is for a site to have logins and a per-user setting to include a certain stylesheet.

Through a training/nagging-the-boss budget I got my mitts on a copy of Matt's book. The bits on his process of choosing an interface, and on form junk, were more reasonable than I've ever read.

If I were an '80s comedian I'd compare design mockups to a one-night stand... it's not a long-term relationship.
posted by holloway at 4:21 AM on August 10, 2002

Sort of like grilling up a really fine piece of steak, only to have your loser guests pour ketchup all over it.

Actually, I think in this instance, it'd be more like grilling up a great steak (the melt in your mouth variety) to a nice medium rare, and someone sending it back to be cooked a bit more? I personally like my steaks medium rare. Other people like theirs a little (or a lot) more done. No accounting for tastes, I suppose. Try to tell them that it really is a more flavorful steak when it's nice and BLOODY, but do they listen? No. They want to CHARCOAL it.

...Ahem. With that said, Matt's idea of using stylesheet overrides is pretty neat. Is there a way to make a local stylesheet applicable for only one site, read: Metafilter? In which case, the people who want variety can get some sort of outside Mefi users layout repository started, where one could download user-made .css files in one convenient location. Changes could be as simple as extra spaces between posts and/or indented by lines for better readability or a major overhaul.

Preferably no Fark spoofs. That is one fugly site.
posted by precocious at 5:18 AM on August 10, 2002

I would be one of those who would definitely use a custom css file. But I think MeFi blue and MeTa gray are an integral part of the site. If only there was a lofi aka "I'm at work" version for MetaTalk too, it would be perfect.
posted by riffola at 5:31 AM on August 10, 2002

Just because I would have access to coding a css file, doesn't mean I would use it. I'm a web design geek, but I'm not one who has to redesign the world.
posted by mkelley at 6:40 AM on August 10, 2002

Is there a way to make a local stylesheet applicable for only one site, read: Metafilter

If Matt renamed all of his styles so they had names that were unlikely to occur elsewhere (mefi_smallcopy, mefi_comments, and so on), I think it would be possible to override the styles here without affecting other sites.

Do any of the browsers offer site-specific style customization?
posted by rcade at 8:10 AM on August 10, 2002

Do any of the browsers offer site-specific style customization?

I thought opera did.

I'll think about the easiest way to implement this. It's the one cool feature from 1142 I always liked, that people could build and share styles. There are some technical probs with that though. Right now I do some browser sniffing to add the second column of CSS on the front page, and do cookie checks for collapsed or expanding portions. I guess I would have to ask that people don't set the text ads to display:none as well.

I could set up a stylesheet writer to dump them to disk, then let everyone use the same files. There are also problems with the HTML itself. I'd most likely have to go with an all CSS layout (the top graphics and nav are some of the few tables on the site), which would piss off all the people using old browsers. So it wouldn't be too hard to implement the CSS switcher, but recoding the html that makes up this site would be no picnic.

On the other hand, I don't care if people want to dunk steak in ketchup, I'm not a elitist designer. Go ahead and rip, mix, and burn the site.
posted by mathowie at 8:33 AM on August 10, 2002

Last December I made a mockup of MetaFilter (XHTML 1.0 Strict/CSS) that lets you select a style sheet on the Customize page.

1. Click on Customize
2. On the Customize page, select "MetaFilter lofi" in the Select Style Sheet dropdown menu and click the Change Your Preferences button
3. On the Customize confirmation page, click the logo, Home, or "back to the index page"

This method uses cookies, but it could be adapted to store the stylesheet in the database.

posted by kirkaracha at 8:36 AM on August 10, 2002

an all CSS layout (the top graphics and nav are some of the few tables on the site), which would piss off all the people using old browsers

The people with old browsers could see the lofi style by default, and people with newer browsers could have the full feature set.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:56 AM on August 10, 2002

one comment about text ads: i click on far more ads here than anywhere else. primarily because this is the only site i frequent that uses text ads. i don't know about anyone else, but i appreciate text ads. plus it seems to urge the advertisers to be witty with their text, and i like that too.

as far as maintaining certain controls mathowie, you could always load one minimal sheet AFTER the user one, that turns text ads on, or any other settings you deem appropriate.

i'm getting all tingly at the thought of making my own mefi designs, and sharing them...
posted by folktrash at 9:31 AM on August 10, 2002

folktrash, I also have to determine what the interface is like for it. Do I allow a freeform stylesheet area in the customize area, then once tweaked, ask people to "save" them as files? How do I present all styles? One giant unweildy drop down? Have a gallery? Make people vote on the top ones?
posted by mathowie at 10:27 AM on August 10, 2002

The simplest thing, really, would be to just have a text-entry field on the customize page where someone could specify a link to an external style sheet that they wanted to use. And if people wanted to share their style sheets with each other, they could post links to them here; no need for you to go to the work of maintaining any sort of gallery to present them.
posted by webmutant at 10:37 AM on August 10, 2002

matt: how difficult would it be to execute rcade's idea? Attach a mefi_/meta_ to the styles that you don't mind being changed, then let those users who want to make some changes have at it?

Some enterprising soul with the time and inclination could create the aforementioned repository of Mefi "skins" where mefites could submit and/or download .css files, maybe a mini-tutorial explaining how to set a local style sheet on different browsers.

If they wanted to go through the whole gallery/voting thing, lovely, but unless you just want to do it, there doesn't seem to be a reason for all the extra work on your part. I think the vast majority are satisfied with the current customization options and would just stick with the faithful 'ole #006699.

(And if you're really insistent about wanting text-ads to stay, you could always make that style a variable that randomizes on load or something.)
posted by precocious at 10:40 AM on August 10, 2002

for the text ads mathowie, just load in the users setting stylesheet, and then load in ads.css (or somesuch) with .textads {display: visible;} or true or whatever. then no matter what, it stays on. the stylesheet loaded last will override contrary settings from a previous one. don't trouble with trying to make the style name random. just load in YOUR master.css sheet last.

i think the text area is the way to go. let the people who want to change it go through the trouble of authoring the sheets. i assume this text area entry would just be saved in a db, and loaded along with user profile. pre-populated with the default blue.

what would also be cool is to be able to see what stylesheet users currently have active, perhaps in a filled textarea, and then we could copy and past into our user sheet setting if we so desired. (i'm sure this could be accomplished with a link)

as for the style name changes to mefi_ and meta_, seems that actually making the sheets editable for users would accomplish this. tho maybe - that name change could happen sooner and with less effort?

And perhaps I'm not getting it, but if these sheets were just info in a db associated with user, then it would be a simple query to see which one is being used the most right?

I will/would be all over trying out multiple designs, maybe even buying a domain for them, but a site like that would have no access to what's actually being used on mefi. Don't get me wrong though. I don't think it should be your responsibility to archive, sort, or otherwise give a poop about what people are doing with their styles, except simply providing a list somewhere or most oft used. heh oft.

Let the other someones with their own sites conduct polls, and make archives by category, and such and such. Man, I can't wait! :-)
posted by folktrash at 12:13 PM on August 10, 2002

as for the style name changes to mefi_ and meta_, seems that actually making the sheets editable for users would accomplish this.

The idea was for little or no coding - a grand total of like, what, 20 people want this feature, if that? Just throwing a "mefi_" or "meta_" in front of some style names and letting the few folks who want to make themselves a local stylesheet that only affects metafilter seems simplest.
posted by precocious at 3:11 PM on August 10, 2002

On shared themes and site_ prefixes
posted by holloway at 5:22 PM on August 10, 2002

Heh, and here I was feeling just a bit ingenious. Just a TINY bit, mind you. But has anyone on kuro5hin thought of the randomizing variable thing to prevent certain elements from being overridden, huh? Huh?

Yeah, I know there are, uhm, accessibility issues . . .

Ahem. So right, yeah. There ya go.
posted by precocious at 6:05 PM on August 10, 2002

The simplest thing, really, would be to just have a text-entry field on the customize page where someone could specify a link to an external style sheet that they wanted to use

This is a really good idea.

MetaFilter becomes peer-to-peer.

20 people want this feature, if that?

20 people are aware of this feature and want it. One person is aware of this feature and doesn't give a toot. 14,000 users haven't even thought about it.

Besides, why even add the meta_ and mefi_? Using webmutant's idea there's no need for that.
posted by cCranium at 7:10 PM on August 10, 2002

This sounds really cool, but I'm pretty sure that Metafilter/Metatalk so much are the blue, the grey, the yellow and the white to me, at least, that I'd end up back at the defaults to avoid feeling all kinda weird and ooky. I'm freaked out by lofi.mefi for that very reason.

But that's just me - I'm a freak. I'd love to see what some of the creative talent around this place could come up with, Mefi_Stylee.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:26 PM on August 10, 2002

Besides, why even add the meta_ and mefi_? Using webmutant's idea there's no need for that.

**Erases her whole explanation upon realizing she's already explained like three times already**

Woo hoo! We might be getting neat features added. Can't wait to see what Matt comes up with.
posted by precocious at 8:55 PM on August 10, 2002

I agree with stavros about lofi mefi, but being able to make small tweaks (indenting "posted by") would be great.
posted by azimuth at 9:40 PM on August 10, 2002

You can self post, Matt is fair-er than fair. What I sound thomcatspikish?, Your user page,doh!! I learned Matt. I need to explain more, Yes because of being a butt, a big thanks to Matt, for Teaching Manners. You showed how to gain everyone's respect, the hard way, hard knocks of life. Having manners. That's what's counts.
posted by thomcatspike at 12:32 AM on August 11, 2002

o mani padme hum.
posted by quonsar at 8:26 AM on August 11, 2002

I'm with stravrosthewonderchicken - it would feel kind of creepy to have the site anything other than the blue/grey. Life has too many choices already - don't make me choose more things or my head will explode!

I also agree with crunchland that, given the work involved in designing a site, particularly one with an interface that works as well as MeFi, it is somehow wrong to want to re-design it. Sort of like having the neighbours come over and paint your house purple while you are out.
posted by dg at 6:26 PM on August 11, 2002