Sorry if I'm being a Language Nazi, but this has to stop

October 3, 2002 5:08 PM

Okay, just a quick history lesson, paraphrasing Tom Tomorrow:

Feminazis are women who would prefer to treated equally, and in some cases slightly superior, to men, and attempt to spread these views through public protest and legislation.

The actual Nazis were a military group that systematically slaughtered twelve million men, women, and children by means of public execution and torture before burying them in mass graves or incinerating them in ovens.

Sorry if I'm being a Language Nazi, but this has to stop. Please.
posted by XQUZYPHYR to Etiquette/Policy at 5:08 PM (110 comments total)

I understand the occasional relation to Nazism, such as saying someone is doing something similar to the agressiveness of the Nazis, or to imply political oppression.

This is beyond that. This is actually calling people Nazis. And a significant number of you are doing it. Why does that not convince me you're writing with a clear head?

Please let me know if I'm alone on this. because I'm not sure which bothers me more: the initial analogy or its constant repetition.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 5:10 PM on October 3, 2002

I've always refrained from using the term "feminazi" as it seems extremely offensive, instead I call them complete fucking bitches.

Straight to the point, no historical linguistic connotations I know of.
posted by Stan Chin at 5:14 PM on October 3, 2002

You're right X. I've been desensitized to it through its constant repetition, but it's a ridiculous formulation when you think about it.
posted by timeistight at 5:20 PM on October 3, 2002

Feminazi has been a commonly used term for a long time. Pull your heads out of your asses and realize that you live in the real world -- not some fictional storyland where no one uses the word "nazi", except on The History Channel.

I'm sure everyone has referred to a boss, a teacher, or whomever, as a nazi, at some point in their life. None of you are innocent. (Deny it all you like, I'm fairly indiferent to your rebuttals.)

Fuck all of you, and your moral superiority complex. If I want to use a generalistic slag term, then I will. I'm not begging for your oh-so-un-asked-for stamp of approval. It's not like I said "hey, get those bitches back in the kitchen"; I haven't used a racial slur, or implied any female inferiority. All I did was call militant feminists "nazis". Oh Jesus, stop the presses. As I said, it's a well-known, commonly used term.

I'll write how I like. Either sift through the "objectionable content" for my message, or skip the post. In any event, I'm not all that concerned.

What a bunch of pu-.... Sissies.
posted by Dark Messiah at 5:25 PM on October 3, 2002

Nope, you're not alone X. Good for you to call it out.
posted by btwillig at 5:26 PM on October 3, 2002

To elaborate: I don't think the issue is one of censorship but whether or not the word is even a remotely accurate description.
posted by btwillig at 5:38 PM on October 3, 2002

The "-nazi" suffix implies militant adherence to any cause. "Feminazi". "Soup Nazi". Whatever. Colloquial usage of a historical term. Welcome to the growing, evolving English language, KWYJIBO.

Women have every legal and moral right to equal treatment, but "slighty superior"? That's just another form of inequality, and is no better than men believing themselves to be "slightly superior" to women.

The word you're looking for, in any case, is misandrist. It doesn't exist in most dictionaries, which is telling.
posted by Danelope at 5:41 PM on October 3, 2002

There's no censorship. As Dark Messiah is aptly demonstrating, anyone is free to identify themselves as a moron by freely using any epithet they choose.

I think TisT has it exactly right: the mean-spirited phrase has been repeated so many times that people just accept it. But as Orwell teaches, language not only expresses thought, but affects thought at its very roots. If you successfully tag your opponent with the suffix "-nazi," you have done much to undermine her message. This is especially true if, as Dark Messiah points out, " the phrase becomes "a commonly used term."
posted by Mid at 5:47 PM on October 3, 2002

Feminazi has been a commonly used term for a long time.

...by the misanthropic, knuckle dragging, followers of Rush Limbaugh, maybe.

I'm sure everyone has referred to a boss, a teacher, or whomever, as a nazi, at some point in their life.

Yeah, and then my balls dropped.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 5:49 PM on October 3, 2002

... but this has to stop.

Yet another control freak hellbent on pushing his (or her) own set of values onto everyone else.


posted by mischief at 5:58 PM on October 3, 2002

inpHilltr8r: must be lonely on that high horse? Or did you trade it for an ass -- more suited to your style anyway....
posted by Dark Messiah at 6:02 PM on October 3, 2002

I've always refrained from using the term "feminazi" as it seems extremely offensive, instead I call them complete fucking bitches.

Yeah, that undermines their argument.

Twunt.
posted by dash_slot- at 6:10 PM on October 3, 2002

*cries*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:25 PM on October 3, 2002

dash-slot:

It's not the argument, it's that certain people need to be called out as complete bitches, not to be confused with incomplete bitches. Remember when you were a kid and you tried to build a bitch out of legos but ran out of bitch-shaped blocks? It's a lot like that, but not only are they complete bitches but they're also complete fucking bitches, which is so rare that few believe they even exist... like unicorns or midgets.

And the etymology of twunt is beyond me, please elaborate. I discern it's derived from cunt, but what invaded the root of cunt to conceive a 'twunt' is mystifying. I can't even think of many words that start with 'tw' other than 'tweety' of Looney Tunes fame, and the thought of Tweety and Cunt conjugating at the conjunction function is a major dysfunction.
posted by Stan Chin at 6:38 PM on October 3, 2002

....'conjunction junction'
posted by Stan Chin at 6:39 PM on October 3, 2002

Twat = vagina.

For the unenlightened...
posted by Dark Messiah at 6:41 PM on October 3, 2002

please...please don't make baby nazi cry
posted by mkelley at 6:47 PM on October 3, 2002

Fuck completely off.

You just dont get the point.
posted by dash_slot- at 6:51 PM on October 3, 2002

You just dont get the point.

Wellity, wellity, if it isn't the mating call of the looooser!
posted by Dark Messiah at 6:53 PM on October 3, 2002

I leave this thread for my heirs to fight over: education will still be needed in the year 2102.

Bye.
posted by dash_slot- at 6:53 PM on October 3, 2002

/me plants my rear end squarely in Dark Messiah's corner

Danelope put it well; use of the "-nazi" suffix implies militant adherence to a cause. Just the other day I told a student that I don't like to be a "grading nazi." Believe it or not, the student did not recoil in horror at my choice of phrase. I believe he actually chuckled a bit.

[insert comment about "damn newbies" hauling people into MetaTalk]
posted by Galvatron at 6:54 PM on October 3, 2002

I leave this thread for my heirs to fight over: education will still be needed in the year 2102.

Bye.

On your wait out, don't let the door hit you where God split you.
posted by Dark Messiah at 6:57 PM on October 3, 2002

ok, so here's a question for left-leaning mefites - is it ok, when you see someone with a name that implies a non-wasp descent using abusive language against one "group", to address them using racist terms that might make them think twice about what they're doing?

galvatron - i have no idea how dark messiah swings (with a username like that i'm kind of guessing he might be pre-adolescent anyway), but given mefi's reputation as a boy zone, you might want to phrase things more carefully. also, there's a difference between using a term against yourself (hey, look, you're in control) and against someone else.
posted by andrew cooke at 7:01 PM on October 3, 2002

DM, could you do any < i>more to offend the people whose viewpoint is different from yours? Just curious.

Mind you, I'm on your side. But if you want to actually convince anyone, quit being such a fucking nazi about it.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 7:04 PM on October 3, 2002

Bad tag; sorry.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 7:04 PM on October 3, 2002

I don't actually find "feminazi" that offensive - it's kinda quaint, in a 1995 dittohead way. What is offensive, and sad, is the complete contempt with which women who have shared their experiences in that thread have been treated.
posted by transona5 at 7:11 PM on October 3, 2002

andrew: you might want to phrase things more carefully

*blushes*
Let's make that "/me sits squarely in Dark Messiah's corner, but without actually touching him, and glancing at him suspiciously every few seconds"
posted by Galvatron at 7:19 PM on October 3, 2002

inpHilltr8r: must be lonely

...at least the women in my life have a 3rd dimension. ;p
posted by inpHilltr8r at 7:24 PM on October 3, 2002

Andrew: I'm allegedly "pre-adolescent", and you're the one resorting to homosexual innuendo. Stick to poorly scrawled e-mail, if you want to "duke it out".

Yelling At Nothing: People skills are highly over-rated. And, well, I don't care if I hurt anyone's feelings. I'm calloused and cold. That said, I'm not suffering.
posted by Dark Messiah at 7:31 PM on October 3, 2002

That said, I'm not suffering.

You think anyone believes that?
posted by sylloge at 7:38 PM on October 3, 2002

Say before this Flame War come to full boil, could someone please tell me what a twunt is?

Is it like, just cunt... but british?
posted by Stan Chin at 7:41 PM on October 3, 2002

inpHilltr8r: must be lonely on that high horse? Or did you trade it for an ass -- more suited to your style anyway....

The muddy hooves, they're inpHilltr8r's manners, and stuff, the nostrils, they're a metaphor for inpHilltr8r's decency because they're like, the scratched away skin surrounded by matted hair stands for the way inpHilltr8r leads life, and, like the mane, you see, is inpHilltr8r's tact, or should I say *burst-giggle* lack of!

I hate your soul inpHilltr8r!

</too-far>
posted by holloway at 7:41 PM on October 3, 2002

Sylloge: While I'm flattered you'd ponder my psychological well-being, I'd suggest getting a hobby. Start with glass-eating.
posted by Dark Messiah at 7:43 PM on October 3, 2002

And people wonder why there aren't more women on MeFi.

Let's see, if we replaced feminazis or as Stan so eloquently put it "fucking bitches" with oh...um...how about Nigger, or Faggot...let's see how long that person would last...but those of us with vaginas are just supposed to suck up derogatory terms so that we can prove we're worthy of your little boizone.

Yeah.

Just like I shouldn't be offended when I'm grabbed on the subway, or goosed and pinched on the streets, right? I mean, my tits are sticking out, obviously random strangers should have the right to touch them. After all, if I object to some random man touching me, then I must be a fucking bitch feminazi and I guess the only thing that would fix that is a long hard fuck, huh?

Jebus on a stick guys, do you even hear yourselves sometimes?

Bleh.
posted by dejah420 at 7:48 PM on October 3, 2002

but those of us with vaginas are just supposed to suck up derogatory terms so that we can prove we're worthy of your little boizone.

Complain all you want. I have no issue with you, other than the fact you still own a pair of shoes. ;)
posted by Dark Messiah at 7:49 PM on October 3, 2002

Wow. Is this the ugliest MetaTalk thread ever, or have I just not been around long enough?

Does Matt ever delete MeTa threads? If not, he ought to start with this one.
posted by MrBaliHai at 7:51 PM on October 3, 2002

It certainly gives adolescence a bad name... I think someone needs a time out.
posted by y2karl at 7:57 PM on October 3, 2002

I don't know why I bother posting this...really I could tell you guys a jillion times that Feminazi makes me grit my teeth (partly I suppose because it seems to have originated with the great gasbag himself, Limbaugh) and it won't make any difference to you. Use "bitch", I am completely inured to that.

I am a product of the 60's and 70's so I still see Feminists as good people, strong women who took on the system and changed many things for the better. It is unfortunate that there has been such a huge backlash and now even many women repudiate Feminists. I know many liberated women go overboard (my least favorite-- the woman who curses at him if a man opens the door for her) but that is what soldiers often do-- they go overboard. Yeah the battle is still going on, folks, like it or not.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:58 PM on October 3, 2002

Feminism must be stopped!

I refuse to call the Mail Man, the Person Person. That's just absurd.
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:01 PM on October 3, 2002

You are right, Dark Messiah, it is absurd. But so is calling a pretty lady postal worker a mail man. I, too, roll my eyes at all the chairperson, fireperson nonsense, but it can't be helped. These jobs were named back in the day when women rarely worked or had any power. I, for one, prefer fireman, actor, and chairman regardless of the actual sex involved (after all we don't say "writeress" or "doctoress")but I certainly understand women who hold the positions and want to be recognized.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:08 PM on October 3, 2002

Blame the guy who coined the term mankind. He started it!
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:27 PM on October 3, 2002

Yeah the battle is still going on, folks, like it or not.

Never in my life has that been so clear to me. I guess you just have to see it in action. Maybe this thread'll have the positive by-product of convincing a few more people of that too.
posted by sylloge at 8:29 PM on October 3, 2002

Isn't there someplace we can put Dark Messiah? The closet? The Bronx? Someplace?
posted by The Michael The at 8:31 PM on October 3, 2002

Isn't there someplace we can put Dark Messiah? The closet? The Bronx? Someplace?

Is Canada desolate enough? If so, no need to leave your seat.

Y'know... the Nazi's shipped off their enemies too. HAH!
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:33 PM on October 3, 2002

If you don't like the term "feminazi"--and I'm lukewarm about it--complain about it because you think it oversimplifies the issue. Don't try to convince me not to use it by saying that it's the equivalent of saying a woman participated in the murder of 12 million people, or any other thing that nazis did. That's apt to make me laugh at you. When someone likens anything to nazis, it's because of the fascist element, not the zyklon-b element, and you damned well know it.
posted by Hildago at 9:13 PM on October 3, 2002

There's nothing wrong with Zyklon.
posted by Dark Messiah at 9:20 PM on October 3, 2002

Danelope
misandry, n.
Hatred of men as a sex.

1909 in Cent. Dict. Suppl. 1946 Scrutiny XIII. 249 In the absence of feminine precedents, she [sc. Beatrice] could do no better than what she very sensibly does do: follow masculine example, and answer to their affected misogyny with the affectation of misandry. 1960 B. KAYE Upper Nankin St. xii. 232 Such women are common in..Kwangtung Province, where there is a tradition of misandry. 1991 New Art Examiner Apr. 35/3 Although Surrealism could survive the excision of its misogyny, if SisterSerpents shed their ‘misandry’, their ideological fangs would prove artless.

Hence mi sandrist n., one who hates men, a man-hater (esp. in feminist usage).

1978 Observer 23 Apr. 8/3 The respectable feminist equivalent for the word misogynist is misandrist. 1993 Guardian 3 Dec. II. 4/5 Strictly speaking, neither misogynist nor misandrist specifies the gender of the person who hates: you should be able to be both female and to hate women.

From the OED Second Edition

That's the only dictionary I could find it in.
Thanks for the new vocab word.
posted by Grod at 9:21 PM on October 3, 2002

What PP said, for entirely different reasons. What a mess.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:30 PM on October 3, 2002

Dark Messiah, you are rubbish. A real waste of space and air. Suitable only for a landfill. At the moment of your death you will have the sole second of clarity in your whole pathetic life, a moment when you will realize that your entire existence has been fruitless and unoteworthy and that you might as well have killed yourself and saved everyone the decades of ignoring you or trying to forget you exist. In that one moment you will for once recognize your own ignorance. Your days are marked by mediocrity. You are a failure. A reject. A loser. That you can talk and write is an aberration: you are no better than a monkey. A crap-smearing primate unschooled in civil discourse. Your corpse will be worth more as fertilizer than anything you ever tried to accomplish. You will leave a series of disappointments in your wake, a world of half-completed projects, unfulfilled goals and puny attempts at living. Your pleasures have been frauds, and your fears are due to cowardice. Your victories are lies you tell yourself. Your corpse will not yet begin to rot before you cease to matter. You will be forgotten in a matter of days. You will have accomplished nothing: then, as now, you will be useless. A loser. A wanking jerk. Three kinds of stupid, ninety-nine kinds of just plain dumb, and a million kinds of moronic.
posted by Mo Nickels at 9:31 PM on October 3, 2002

Well, there we have it.

One of the oldest, lamest semantic flame wars from usenet (godwin anyone?) pops up here and is argued in true caustic usenet style, and ends with someone dusting off and posting a canned flame from usenet.

Maybe we can rally some of the old alt.flame and alt.bigfoot guys to bring in the big guns and then rate the whole thing.

/imminent death of metafilter predicted/
posted by malphigian at 9:41 PM on October 3, 2002

What's really funny is Mo's post actually describes 99.999% of all human beings dead, alive or yet to be born.


posted by mischief at 10:04 PM on October 3, 2002

This thread is over 30 years old, and has been closed for archival purposes.

posted by dash_slot- at 10:05 PM on October 3, 2002

Isn't it odd how it so often seems to be those of a more conservative bent who stoop to namecalling? I wonder why that is....
posted by rushmc at 10:18 PM on October 3, 2002

that would be because part of the conservative mindset is a need to label things. By labelling things we (the royal we, mind you) keep things nice and tidy. Keeping things nice and tidy allows us (the royal us), to quickly determine how to treat a person or idea without having to think too much.

Good. Evil. Black. White. Man. Woman. etc...


posted by jaded at 10:25 PM on October 3, 2002

rushmc, I think that name-calling and stupidity easily defy left/right distinctions, as most of these discussions that break down into left/right arguments illustrate well...
posted by UKnowForKids at 10:30 PM on October 3, 2002

After all, if I object to some random man touching me, then I must be a fucking bitch feminazi?

When you take it out on people that didn't do it, yeah. I don't really care what your problem is dejah, but you're telling guys in the audience that they're the most hateable cliche of a male. The long hard fucking detail isn't from this conversation, or I suspect from any real life conversation with anyone here. You came up with that one from your own prejudices. I guess you hope those who it doesn't apply to should just filter and go on; but it usually doesn't work that way. Your lazy accusations tend to hit a wide target so while I'd normally agree with you, tip my hat and leave, I'm much more incline to go leave a salmon behind your hot water cylinder.
posted by holloway at 10:40 PM on October 3, 2002

This arguement is so old I've forgotten the answer to it.
posted by Mack Twain at 10:55 PM on October 3, 2002

posted by y2karl at 11:01 PM on October 3, 2002

Well if the thread's finished, let the guy who started it finish it.

You know what? Everyone's right in some respect. There is freedom of speech, and the freedom to express yourself, and despite how ridiculous everyone's catchphrases and canned Lucianne.com post copy-overs, the general point is a valid argument: I never meant that people don't have the right to continue being assholes. I just said they should stop for the sake of this community.

A lot of people said "it's not like I said nigger or faggot." They're wrong. To people who find the term "feminazi" offensive, you ARE calling us niggers and faggots. Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean no one else does. And obviously there's a large enough percentage upset about it to merit taking the issue seriously.

We all have different voices, and like another poster said, we can save our brazen obnoxious tone for personal e-mail. I'm sure there are several people here who know that there are offensive but much more brief terms to, oh, let's say tell Dark Messiah that he should go forcibly fornicate with a variety of barnyard animals. But we don't use some of these terms in public. It's called respect. Privacy allows you the benefit of saying whatever you want in the proper reflection of your level of respect for someone. In a community message board, you don't, or at least shouldn't, have this unbridled priviledge.

People will call each other faggots and bitches and niggers around those they are positive have a comfortable environment to say them in. THAT's the "growing, evolving English language" I was oafishly "introduced" to in the first few posts. People will also say them to deliberately hurt. In a combination of those two, people might also say them simply because they are ignorant.

And those are your three choices. It is now a given that many find a term offensive. Therefore, continuing to say it with defiant glee means one of these three things. You are either deliberately being hurtful, exposing your ignorance, or merely forgetting that this, MetaFilter, is a community with a group of people, many of whom have collectively expressed their wish that you watch your fucking language. All three are decent rationales for never being allowed to speak in public again.

In a public gathering, someone asking you to not say an objectionable word would usually be met with respect and at least a tiny bit of etiquette. Apparently, in MetaFilter, the request to respect the cultural feelings of others is met with "Fuck you and your personal feelings."

If you want to use a "slag term" because you feel like it, no, we can't stop you. But as a community we can collectively lose all respect for you.

I didn't mean to start a flame war, and for that I apologize to all decent MeFites. I also didn't mean to appear condescending, as a few of you seemed to imply as the nature of my first post in this thread. I simply meant to state what I thought was the blatantly obvious: as a community, we're supposed to respect the wishes of its members- at least the wishes as stupidly simple as not saying a word people find offensive.

I am ashamed that not only do some people want to ignore this request, but are actually taking pleasure in spitting on it. What valuable members of the community you have made yourself.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 11:02 PM on October 3, 2002

as a community, we're supposed to respect the wishes of its members

... and in so saying, you are once again trying to force your values on other people. Some issues are black and white, but this one is as gray as the page on which it is printed.


posted by mischief at 11:09 PM on October 3, 2002

Preaching to the choir, you choir-preacher-nazi?
posted by hama7 at 12:20 AM on October 4, 2002

So it sounds like we can boil this down to two truly important topics:
1) Right-wingers should hereafter be referred to as "Conservaniggers". For example, "That uppity hama7 is going on and on with his usual conservanigger nonsense."
2) How the heck did y2karl do an [img] tag? I thought Matt turned off img tags a long time ago...
posted by hincandenza at 12:24 AM on October 4, 2002

Here tonight, gone tomorrow, I would assume. I missed that memo.
posted by y2karl at 12:26 AM on October 4, 2002

I like pancakes. Who wants pancakes?
posted by webmutant at 1:19 AM on October 4, 2002

How the heck did y2karl do an [img] tag? I thought Matt turned off img tags a long time ago...

However he did it, that was well worth a special dispensation.
posted by walrus at 1:31 AM on October 4, 2002

Matt simply asked us not to abuse the image tags and threatened to disable them if they were abused, i.e. used to post goofy, unnecessary images. He mentioned legitimate use of the tags (small maps which would be difficult to find on a web page, for instance).

So every time a goofy, unnecessary image is posted...his disabling-finger edges closer to the button. We have been warned!
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:45 AM on October 4, 2002

Right-wingers should hereafter be referred to as "Conservaniggers". For example, "That uppity hama7 is going on and on with his usual conservanigger nonsense."

How very mature. You must be a slur-nazi. Notice how your nastiness has added to the thread.
posted by hama7 at 6:06 AM on October 4, 2002

Wow. Just wow. Did we skip three meals or something?

Cuz every civilization is three maels away from barbarity as they say.

posted by PinkStainlessTail at 6:24 AM on October 4, 2002

Mo: you wrote that out just for me? I'm flattered. I'll send the autographed glossy 8x10 immediately.

posted by Dark Messiah at 6:27 AM on October 4, 2002

Ich begrüße unsere neuen Nazi-überleitern.
posted by mcwetboy at 7:03 AM on October 4, 2002

Is somebody on their period, mmmmm?
posted by Summer at 7:12 AM on October 4, 2002

du bist kronk?

and wheres quonsar, it is early but i kicked the semantics outta him in the reparations thread. lets see if he responds.
change yourselves folks. when i saw sylloge in this thread, i was relieved. i wish he and others would come back more often.

this shit, this shrill of half-assed thinking is destroying this place and it will fall unless something is done. members are speaking of an old guard return. like the magnificent 350#, bustin semantic caps in these "Foos"

if only this would happen.

i remember when i was the worst. (my ego is not THAT big.)

and i cant stand Mr. Cookes linkless 'filter the filter so we can have meaningful discourse shit'
XQ has a great point and I think it got some sorta ball running.


posted by clavdivs at 7:25 AM on October 4, 2002

You know there's some serious shit going down when Clav gets prosaic.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 7:35 AM on October 4, 2002

Who let the soc.men inmates out? Anyway, what if we settle it this way: you can continue to rant harmlessly about feminazis or vagina dentatas or whatever it is that terrifies you; and I get to laugh at angry little goth boys and their juvenile cheerleaders?
posted by octobersurprise at 7:39 AM on October 4, 2002

change yourselves folks.

Right-o. I am undergoing a metamorphosis as we speak.

half-assed thinking is destroying this place and it will fall unless something is done.

I half-assedly think chicken little said the same thing, and the sky did not fall. But somebody might very well get tired of babysitting a bunch of college-student political-activist wanna-bees and throw in the towel.

As for the ball: all hail the ball-rolling-nazis.
posted by hama7 at 7:44 AM on October 4, 2002

yeah, i used to get all flowery, flicking thorns, acting foolish.
(errr, yeah)
but i'm beyond pissed. I have attacked every valuable member here and regret it. My example, from other valued members kicking the crap outta me should serve some purpose. And they did, boy did they and i respect them all the more because they love this place too and dont want fools AND idiots running it into the ground.
posted by clavdivs at 7:48 AM on October 4, 2002

In another context, it would be goofy and unnecessary, Miguel. Here...oh, it was an attempt to derail this unfortunate thread...

that failed. *sigh*
posted by y2karl at 7:50 AM on October 4, 2002

"After all, if I object to some random man touching me, then I must be a fucking bitch feminazi?"

Holloway - "When you take it out on people that didn't do it, yeah. I don't really care what your problem is dejah, but you're telling guys in the audience that they're the most hateable cliche of a male."

You know, holloway, I'd agree with you if dejah was taking it out on innocent guys. If she anywhere said that "all men are abusers/harassers" or "I know holloway is a scumbag, because he's a man," you'd have a case. What she actually said is that no one should be called a feminazi for not wanting to be harassed. As far as the "long hard fuck" comment, that would be something from the mouth of real-life harassers. It's not such a stretch to think that someone who calls you a feminazi for protesting harassment would be in agreement of said harassers. If you (holloway) aren't calling someone names for objecting to harassment, then dejah's diatribe wasn't aimed at you - see?

Even the original site which provoked the epithet never actually sinks to the "all men are scum" level or advocates attacking men. Complaining about the imbalance of power between men & women in society (fact) does not equate to hating men or wanting to oppress men. The strongest statement on the site is that of one women who acknowledges "I must continue to struggle against stereotyping every man as an 'enemy' on par with those guys outside the sandwich shop." - an honest description of her own emotional state, even though she has clearly stated that in fact not all men really do fall into that category. So I have to conclude that calling anyone on the linked site or in the MeFi thread a feminazi is not only a rude epithet, but intellectually dishonest. I'm a man. I don't like being attacked for being a man. Guess what - I read the thread, I read the site, I never once felt like any one was attacking me for being a man.

As far as Dark Messiah goes, I don't carry on conversations with those who won't attempt to be civil. I recommend no one else does either.
posted by tdismukes at 8:12 AM on October 4, 2002

"As for the ball: all hail the ball-rolling-nazis."

Could you make yourself more clear. did Goebbels like to bowl a few frames? did mussolini fail at that lawn-bowling game or are you pitching lawn darts in hopes of creating a higher consensus.

"I half-assedly think chicken little said the same thing, and the sky did not fall."

I would venture suggestion, use, oh say, Derrida instead of a storybook character for you analogies.

use mark twain if the river seems shallow.
posted by clavdivs at 8:13 AM on October 4, 2002

I ♥ Clav. In case my earlier comment seemed snarky.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 8:35 AM on October 4, 2002

Christ, this place has gotten horrible. Please feel free to tell me that if I don't like it I should get the fuck out and all that--I know I probably should. But as wiser folks than me have already pointed out, breaking up is hard to do.

this shit, this shrill of half-assed thinking is destroying this place and it will fall unless something is done. members are speaking of an old guard return.

I've made fun of clav before, but well, yeah. And it doesn't have anything to do with ridiculous, tireless "pay attention to me because I'm BAD!" horseshit-mongers like Dark Messiah. It's the reaction that's telling.
posted by Skot at 8:38 AM on October 4, 2002

thing is PST, my foolish behavior most likely will deride any sence i post. When i arrived, many mefis where very cool yet firm about my behavior. they treated me fair.

did not read snarky at all.
(Thanks:)
posted by clavdivs at 8:43 AM on October 4, 2002

Wow, Godwin's Law violated in the MeTa post itself! A new record.

The -nazi suffix is cheap and lazy, not to mention overstatement.

I prefer -cur. "Ladle me some gumbo, wretched Soup-cur!"
posted by Succa at 8:58 AM on October 4, 2002

And it doesn't have anything to do with ridiculous, tireless "pay attention to me because I'm BAD!" horseshit-mongers like Dark Messiah. It's the reaction that's telling.

For the record: I've never attempted to be a "bad ass". I spoke my mind. A thousand apologies if I wasn't civil enough for your liking. If I wanted to be a "bad ass", the last place I'd be doing it is MeFi. I might as well go beat up the chess club at my former high school.

As far as my alleged evils go, just keep in mind that I can say anything I want -- it only gets truly ugly when you waste your time acknowledging it. That allows for very few people here to be counted among the guilt-free.
posted by Dark Messiah at 9:10 AM on October 4, 2002

As far as Dark Messiah goes, I don't carry on conversations with those who won't attempt to be civil. I recommend no one else does either.

Imminent end of MeFi predicted. Film at 11.
posted by Slithy_Tove at 9:23 AM on October 4, 2002

what was the name of the little punk who was banned not too long ago, the one who was screaming "censorship!" or "double standards!" or whatever it was?

I spoke my mind.

hurling insult after insult at people isn't "speaking your mind."
posted by tolkhan at 10:27 AM on October 4, 2002

The purpose of this thread seems shot to hell, what with all the name calling and vitriol, but here is another two cents.

The term feminazi is one of derision and scorn. I don't think anyone would consider it a sign of respect. When people use this term they are associating themselves with Rush Limbaugh and his views. He popularized the term, and it would not be a part of the public discourse without him.

The discussion of whether or not this term is accurate or appropriate is valid. What gets me is that some people want to dismiss this debate all together - that because a word is common, we must get used to it, or to call attention to the use of a particular word is to be weak willed and whiny - and because certain people have a problem with this word - myself included - to discuss whether or not it should be used makes us some kind of PC promoting thought police out to control everyone's vocabulary.

Please, Metafilter is debate and discussing the term feminazi entirely appropriate. All contentious threads eventually become a discussion of semantics. Why can't we discuss issues instead of all this name calling?




posted by birgitte at 10:50 AM on October 4, 2002

...

this thread, and what little I could read of the one that prompted it, is DISGUSTING.

Congratulations, boys (oh yes, I *do* mean boys): I don't want to be here anymore.

I cannot fucking believe you people. GROW UP.
posted by Sapphireblue at 11:04 AM on October 4, 2002

hurling insult after insult at people isn't "speaking your mind."

The sad thing is, for some, it can be.
posted by rushmc at 11:43 AM on October 4, 2002

Yeuch. This thread is like your parents house after you invited your dope-smoking, cider drinking, non-washing friends over for a party. Oh now look, Dark Messiah was sick on the rug.
posted by Summer at 12:40 PM on October 4, 2002

I think this thread was important if only to emphasize that at metafilter you are what you write.
posted by btwillig at 1:01 PM on October 4, 2002

Or do I mean how you write? I think my point was clear.
posted by btwillig at 1:03 PM on October 4, 2002

Thank you, Hello Kitty for your gracious appearance in this thread.

As usual, I was late to the flame fest, but in case anyone is still reading and possibly interested, my two cents follow.

I, for one, still do not feel that MetaFilter (or MetaTalk, for that matter) is a "boyzone." I think that there have been some very vocal, obviously clueless and/or spiteful comments from a few ill behaved members which hopefully will not permanently piss off some of our better members.

For the flamers: why is it so difficult to say to yourself: I am not a woman, but I can perhaps see how it would be frustrating to be constantly treated as a sexual object by rude stranger. I can see how it would be frustrating to wonder if what I'm wearing, where I'm walking, what time of day it is, what I say to someone might spark some sort of assault. Replace this with anything you want: I am not gay/black/white/straight/asian/male, etc., but I can see how this could make me feel . . . . It's called being openminded and guess what? It tends to make this world a better place and who knows, you might learn something along the way. Or have someone listen to you since you're not yelling at them.

Likewise, I am not a man, but I can see how it would be frustrating to be pigeonholed as a rapist. I don't think that my reaction, though (as this is pure conjecture, since I am not a man) would be to say "You complete fucking bitches/cunts/twats/twunts/feminazi/gender insult of your preference, I am not like those men! How dare you stereotype me like that! I don't hurl insults at women on the street! Instead, I do it at MetaFilter!"

Nevertheless, there have been some wonderful and insightful comments from both genders on this thread and the MetaFilter thread. The fact that there are people who refuse to categorize a whole gender based on the actions a few people gives me hope for the future.
posted by witchstone at 1:29 PM on October 4, 2002

The term feminazi is one of derision and scorn. I don't think anyone would consider it a sign of respect. When people use this term they are associating themselves with Rush Limbaugh and his views. He popularized the term, and it would not be a part of the public discourse without him.

Okay, this is fair. I placed myself on the "pro -nazi" side of the debate because I found it unlikely that the suffix actually results in an immediate mental association with genocide, labor camps, etc. But yes, the term "feminazi" is certainly disrespectful. It is a word that I have used on only one or two occasions, when referring to select groups of people who I felt did not deserve my respect.

I would not have used the word to describe anyone mentioned on the linked site.
posted by Galvatron at 2:07 PM on October 4, 2002

Witchstone wins.
posted by rushmc at 4:10 PM on October 4, 2002

If you (holloway) aren't calling someone names for objecting to harassment, then dejah's diatribe wasn't aimed at you - see?

That's my point, it doesn't work that way. Notice here how women are acting like silly hysterical bitches, and it's clear that they're not bothering to read the posts. Notice how that sentence is inciteful and ridiculous, and I hope that if it doesn't apply to you you'll ignore it accordingly, and see how it doesn't work that way in practice.

A few more carefully phrased lines from Dejah ("Jebus on a stick guys, do you even hear..."), the site in question ("the streets are public space that men have for too long claimed as their turf"), Sapphireblue ("Congratulations, boys (oh yes, I *do* mean boys)") would have stopped half the feminazi comments and -more to the point- would had far more stated agreement on street bastards.

(not I doubt there's an unstated agreement)

I've pretty much given up wearing what I want in public. I changed what I prefer to wear into stripy shirts and gingham linings. I also like badges, though I don't have enough. Normally I'd empathise with the, er, recipients, but the site's writers and the people in these threads who feel comfortable with their bizarrre over-generalisations aren't people I'd want to be around.

Game over
posted by holloway at 4:23 PM on October 4, 2002

I might as well go beat up the chess club at my former high school.

You could try beating up the chess club at your current high school.
posted by anildash at 4:36 PM on October 4, 2002 [1 favorite]

[The way I use the word 'Twunt' is as an alternate insult:

I've always refrained from using the term "feminazi" as it seems extremely offensive, instead I call them complete fucking bitches- posted by Stan Chin at 5:14 PM PST on October 3

Yeah, that undermines their argument.

Twunt - posted by dash_slot- at 6:10 PM PST on October 3

It's an invented word, I found it on mefi, therefore it cannot be taken seriously as NOONE knows what it really means: it is the great dismisser.

However I also used the F-word shortly after, in a format which took the piss, as well. I'm not entirely sure I regret that usage, but I regret engaging with certain members.
I'll learn from that, I hope.

posted by dash_slot- at 4:37 PM on October 4, 2002

You could try beating up the chess club at your current high school.

I got my grade 13 long ago, for the record.
posted by Dark Messiah at 5:21 PM on October 4, 2002

I got my grade 13 long ago, for the record

noted.
posted by clavdivs at 5:31 PM on October 4, 2002

There are really only two ways to call attention to oneself in a public forum: be more interesting than most, or be more irritating than most.

Discerning one type of poster from the other in, for example, this thread, is left as an exercise...
posted by George_Spiggott at 5:55 PM on October 4, 2002

New tagline: I regret engaging with certain members.
posted by rushmc at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2002

What a dick-waving train wreck of a hellish mockery of a MetaTalk thread. I would like to be sick all over this loose cannon of a goddamn campus-crusade-for-chthulu cicrle jerk if it could possibly give me an explanation as to why mathowie does not simply pill the plug after reading this failed excuse for drunken bum-wipe.
posted by crunchburger at 6:25 PM on October 4, 2002

Holloway, stick it up your ass.

My post was something like the ninetieth in this thread, and I didn't comment in the originating thread once. Therefore, there's *no way* you can pin the bad behavior in this thread or the other on me, nor use what I said to justify the 90 awful, hateful, misogynistic comments that came before mine (not even *counting* the awful, hateful, misogynistic comments in the thread that spawned this one), and it's just shallow and transparent of you to do so. Could you work ANY HARDER to justify what a repugnant excuse for a human being you are being?

I love how certain types of people make a hobby out of being just as obnoxious as they possibly can, and when someone finally gets fed up and reacts to it, they'll scream LOOK I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG AND I WAS JUSTIFIED IN BEING SUCH AN ASSHOLE! ---that's what you're doing, Holloway, and it's a stretch. Except for the "asshole" part.

---I suppose that this post makes me a "silly, hysterical bitch?" No, it makes me a person who thinks you and others in this thread are *way* out of line, and that's got nothing to do with my gender or my political beliefs. If I were a man or a misogynist, you'd still be wrong.
posted by Sapphireblue at 9:16 AM on October 5, 2002

Congratulations, boys (oh yes, I *do* mean boys):

Holloway, stick it up your ass...Could you work ANY HARDER to justify what a repugnant excuse for a human being you are being?

Yes, a model for maturity in posting...sigh.
posted by rushmc at 10:03 AM on October 5, 2002

rush, grab that thing out of holloway's ass and stick it up yours.

I'm pissed off. Deal.
posted by Sapphireblue at 10:35 AM on October 5, 2002

you are rubbish. A real waste of space and air. Suitable only for a landfill. At the moment of your death you will have the sole second of clarity in your whole pathetic life, a moment when you will realize that your entire existence has been fruitless and unoteworthy and that you might as well have killed yourself and saved everyone the decades of ignoring you or trying to forget you exist. In that one moment you will for once recognize your own ignorance. Your days are marked by mediocrity. You are a failure. A reject. A loser. That you can talk and write is an aberration: you are no better than a monkey. A crap-smearing primate unschooled in civil discourse. Your corpse will be worth more as fertilizer than anything you ever tried to accomplish. You will leave a series of disappointments in your wake, a world of half-completed projects, unfulfilled goals and puny attempts at living. Your pleasures have been frauds, and your fears are due to cowardice. Your victories are lies you tell yourself. Your corpse will not yet begin to rot before you cease to matter. You will be forgotten in a matter of days. You will have accomplished nothing: then, as now, you will be useless. A loser. A wanking jerk. Three kinds of stupid, ninety-nine kinds of just plain dumb, and a million kinds of moronic.

jesus christ, and people are upset over 'feminazi'?
perhaps those of you crap-smearing primates who are schooled in civil discourse could put on a seminar for the rest of us poor apes?
posted by quonsar at 2:32 PM on October 5, 2002

I'm pissed off. Deal.

I've got a better idea...how about you LEAVE, if you can't control yourself better? It is not appropriate for you to indulge your juvenile snits here by spewing inanely at other members and making a scene in front of the thousands of others of us. You lost any credibility you ever had with me a long time ago, but this is beyond the pale and a sure way of trashing whatever positive feeling people have for you. Come back when you can express dissent in non-abusive terms, like a grown-up.
posted by rushmc at 3:17 PM on October 5, 2002

My post was something like the ninetieth in this thread, and I didn't comment in the originating thread once. Therefore, there's *no way* you can pin the bad behavior in this thread or the other on me,

Well obviously. The slightest logic will see that this doesn't apply to you. Ignore it, and go on, my child.
posted by holloway at 4:48 PM on October 5, 2002

I'm pissed off. Deal.

Talk about special pleading. Or cries for help. No offense, normally-exemplary sapphireblue, but have you imagined what this place would look like if everyone followed this example? Why should we deal with anyone who's pissed off? You might as well have said "I'm pissed off. Discuss."

I hate orders.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 5:52 PM on October 5, 2002