October 7, 2002

8:50 PM

So, when do Nazi references become gratuitous?
posted by dhartung to etiquette/policy at 8:50 PM (88 comments total)

I think two MetaTalk threads pretty much makes them gratuitous, you're right ;)

hit current archives and scroll down

All joking aside, I think fold_and_mutilate usually raises some valid points, but I have to take points off for the nazi/hitler thing, if only because it's so overused that it weakens his argument.

Other than that, I think people can feel free to make whatever comparisons they'd like in the context of a debate. If you think it's a bad one, by all means attack the argument.
posted by The God Complex at 8:53 PM on October 7, 2002

When does anything become gratuitous in MeFi? I think when it happens thirty times in the same week, day, or thread. Yeah that's a nice round number. Good rule of thumb.

Gee maybe when it starts bugging people. That's when it's probably been enough. Or maybe it depends on which people it's bugging. But then again, I open my piehole and I bug somebody immediately, so I don't like that rule of thumb none.

Nazi references have been out of fashion for decades. No one takes Nazis seriously anymore ever since the fallen Berlin Wall became a tourist trap. I'm expecting it to be a stop along the way for Amazing Race 3, so we can all just ignore Nazi references now. They're ineptly stupid and anyone who uses them they're ineptly stupid, and anyone who disagrees with me is a Goddamned NATZI! There! Ah says it an ah'd says it agin!
posted by ZachsMind at 8:57 PM on October 7, 2002

Every time. I prefer fascist, but that doesnt apply in any country where we have (regulated) elections, a (somewhat) free press, independent (if nominated) judges ...

Maybe a new term will be coined for the really odd developments happening in the US right now, but Nazi doesn't apply.

However, can we afford to have a MeTa thread on every invocation of Godwin's law? If the answer is no, then we need to deal with it another way.

I tend to ignore it.
posted by dash_slot- at 9:01 PM on October 7, 2002

Busy day on the gray. [/pointless remark]
posted by ashbury at 9:04 PM on October 7, 2002

When they're made by someone else? This is going to be fun, I can tell.

But seriously, folks. For what it's worth, I believe the way we use words (here or anywhere) reflect much more on ourselves than anything or anyone else. I assume dhartung is complaining about fold_and_mutilate's use of 'goosestepping' here, and to my mind, well....

Let's just say that I don't disagree as much with f_and_m, politically, as I do with many other people here. That simple fact is independant entirely of the fact that I sometimes find his rhetoric a little...florid, shall we say. I agree that it doesn't add much to any discussion to Godwinize it (or otherwise inflame passions), and even if I agree with the sentiment expressed, can't see much good coming of it, and a great deal of bad (such as inclining those with less wit and learning to employ similar tactics), but at the end of the day, it's up to us to ignore such excesses and argue points, no?


posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:10 PM on October 7, 2002

Stavros just said what I said with more commas and cooler turns of phrase.

Pshaw.
posted by The God Complex at 9:16 PM on October 7, 2002

Hey, I agree that flinging "Nazi" and "fascist" around carelessly is rhetorical overkill. I feel strongly about that. But in the context of that thread, were Foldy's comments any sillier than Midas's implication that the "liberal media" was trying to keep Mr. Bush off the airwaves? I mean, there's more than one way to obsfuscate and derail a discussion.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:18 PM on October 7, 2002

MetaFilter, where the goosestep still ain't completely fashionable.

New tagline.
posted by goethean at 9:33 PM on October 7, 2002

Goosestepping, yes. And being alluded to as "a right-wing ideologue". And the Horst Wessel reference, directed specifically at me. My positions, mind you, are shared by the majority of the elected Democratic Party.

When does it become gratuitous? This sure as hell isn't the first time he's danced around calling me a Nazi.
posted by dhartung at 9:37 PM on October 7, 2002

ya know dan, this is the context:

dhargung: "In any event, if this is to be believed, it disproves the claim that the administration is not thinking about the post-war end-game...it's what the left actually wants...blah blah blah..."
Ya know, if I were a right wing ideologue (and sadly, I'm not, although I can hum a few bars of The Horst Wessel Song), I'd come into this thread and immediately break into sobs of outrage about yet another attack on Bush, and get hysteri-huffy at anyone who dared draw certain 20th century parallels to the stupidity and intellectual laziness of following lockstep behind Our Leader.

Isn't it a little misguided to say that the 'Horst Wessel' reference is aimed at you?


posted by dash_slot- at 9:52 PM on October 7, 2002

As someone who very much appreciates both fold_and_mutilate's and dhartung's contributions (though I'm well to the right of even the latter) can I just say that their points of view, when set against each other, are all the more valuable? Thank you.

This may sound wishy-washy liberal, but it's true. What could be superficially seen as baiting is nothing but good, old-fashioned provocation, an essential element of political argument.

Dhartung isn't a right wing ideologue, nor is foldy a socialist virago who sees Nazis under ever bed. But these caricatures, if intelligently perceived, can be useful in vigorous, political debate. As is the case, imho.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 9:52 PM on October 7, 2002

Hey, I found foldy's homepage.

kidding, of course.
posted by mathowie at 10:40 PM on October 7, 2002

*to be read in Jealousy Green*

Heh. Only the owner of MetaFilter wouldn't make this a fully-fledged thread and waste it on a comment on MeTa!
posted by MiguelCardoso at 10:45 PM on October 7, 2002

Stavros just said what I said with more commas

I've gotta work on that comments thing. *breaks out the Strunk & White*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:48 PM on October 7, 2002

...er 'commas' thing. Damn it.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:49 PM on October 7, 2002

I was commending you, actually. I happen to enjoy using commas at almost every possible opportunity.

[aside]
Although when reading Descartes I couldn't help but notice that it seemed that commas were left in even when a dependant clause followed an independant, which is an odd practice that made my inner rhythm very white-boyish in nature.
[/aside]

Damn, I just realized I'm posting mere minutes after you, almost as if stalking you, the venerable stavrosthewonderchicken, in a decidedly creepy, albeit well-intended, manner.

Really I just took a break from writing about Nabokov to refresh the site and the comment happened to be there. I swear!
posted by The God Complex at 10:55 PM on October 7, 2002

when a dependant clause followed an independant

The God Complex: just because much-loved Stavros spells "independent" as independant, doesn't mean you should too. :)
posted by MiguelCardoso at 11:03 PM on October 7, 2002

The more Nazi references the better, I say.

That way I can read twice as fast, because I know what to skip.
posted by hama7 at 11:12 PM on October 7, 2002

The God Complex: just because much-loved Stavros spells "independent" as independant, doesn't mean you should too. :)

It's one of those ones that gets me every damn time. I don't know why or how, but it does. If only shock therapy was still a viable option..

Necessary gets me sometimes, too, to the extent that I think I'm spelling it right when I proof-read my writing.

I mean, get out of here, spelling nazi!
posted by The God Complex at 11:18 PM on October 7, 2002

Did you know that Hitler was a leftist? That should give you sufficient reason to bandy the word "Nazi" about with reckless abandon.

Lest we forget.
posted by hama7 at 1:02 AM on October 8, 2002

Oh my God. Did someone mention yet how thin-skinned Hitler was? I mean, you say something about Eva Braun's looks and it wasn't like just a frozen Fuhrer smile. It was meathook and piano wire, buddy.

Ok, enough kidding around. Let's get into this a bit here, this neverending, eternal quest by the MetaFilter few to escape or shape the damned dissent....

I take time with this issue because it is so loudly echoed in our society at large, especially right now.

Someone (for the millionth time on MeFi) feels we really shouldn't criticize Bush and/or question Iraqi war plans so much here. A comment is made that perhaps such a person would be better served by reading Free Republic or Dittoheads.com etc....sites renowned for members flocking together, marching proudly to the beat of a single squawk, as it were.

Sites for, in a word, goosestepping. Quite unlike MetaFilter...or at least the MetaFilter that still ignores the shrill cries of the chickenhawks for curtailment of dissent.

(God, there are just so many birdlike metaphors one can pluck here...you know?)

So all this transpires...and whaddya know, out comes a gaggle of MetaFilter geese....

...who do nothing but honk (and goosestep further). Absolutely no effort...no attempt... is made by "dhartung" or "MidasMulligan" or anyone else to show how these parallels do not apply. None whatsoever. "MidasMulligan's" misinterprets (or more probably just outright distorts) the idea that "those who discourage dissent are goostepping" as "those who like Bush are goosestepping." "Dhartung" isn't troubled by that distortion. Neither expresses concern that someone ("dagny") would characterize the thread as another unworthy inquiry into a minor matter like war, and no effort is made by either of them to point out the danger of too little questioning...of too little dissent...of the historical consequences of marching lockstep in conformity, especially when it comes to matters of war.

Instead they decide their very most important thread-task and highest cause is to have a couple of tantrums in-thread about "Hitler-Nazi comparisons"...followed soon after by Yet Another Tantrum in MetaTalk.

Well, we each have our priorities, I guess. Apparently these "Hitler comparisons" are more intolerable than intellectual goosestepping to them both. I think that speaks worlds.

And it begs the question: when does calling for an end to dissent by invoking so-called "Godwin's Law" become gratuitous?

And just out of curiosity, is there no sense of humor among these folks at all? Obviously our right wing friends do not gather around the piano at night with great steins of beer and sing about Horst Wessel (I hope). Obviously Iraq is not (quite) Czechoslovokia. ObviouslyBush ain't-a- gonna look good in a moustache (thanks matt), and he has not sent me to the gas ovens (...yet...wink).

But just as obviously, there are extraordinarily worrisome undercurrents of the rush to war....of scapegoating ethnic groups....of nationalism and militarism...of an unwillingness to look at our own past....of an intolerance of dissent (including here on MetaFilter)...of crying "traitor" to those who raise questions...of a refusal to accept responsibility for what we've done to bring "terrorism" on ourselves....of an ominous, outright American imperialism. All of which do in fact have disconcerting parallels with other times and places.

So yeah, given that, I'll tweak you humorless fuckwits a bit. And here's the deal folks: stop behaving like HitlerJugend wannabes sobbing aloud every time the Fuhrer gets besmirched, and I and others will probably stop calling you out as such. I really have no tolerance whatsoever for fools trying to silence questioning voices, or sandless, psuedo-intellectual idiots who think war is the E-ticket ride of international relations, justifiable because "our interests" (let's see, are "our interests" spelled lebensraum?) are paramount...all conveniently and oh so hygienically divorced from the reality of pain and death and the hideous injustice of any war.

And friends, I think some of you misunderstand in a more fundamental way. The one who feels the rhythm of goosestepping is in me as well as you. The one who longs for a simplistic worldview of "us versus them" is in me as well as you. The one who longs for the feeling of unity of countrymen, of an intolerance for troubling questions when we so desperately need the comfort of solidarity, is in me as well as you. The one who is frightened of the eternal "other" is in me as well as you. The one who countenances violence by declaring "my interests are all the justification I need" is in me as well as you. The one who attempts to intellectualize and rationalize about the horror of war from a safe distance is in me as well as you. Those same traits are in Hitler preparing to invade in 1939. They are traits "the best and brightest" shared as they led us into the miasma of Vietnam. They are in Bin Laden preparing young men to kill in the name of God, and in the United States Air Force/Navy/Marines/Army preparing young men to kill in the name of "One Nation Under God." They are in Saddam preparing to invade in 1991, and in Bush preparing to invade in 2002.

You heard right. Saddam and Osama and me and Shrub have those same goddammed things deep inside each of us. It's like we're being universally fucked.

And those same traits are prevalent in many of you -- yet some of you run shrieking from the "Hitler comparison" mirror... a mirror that shows Hitler in you, Osama in you, and Bush in you (yeah, I agree...that last is way over the line...sorry...)

Let us call those traits by name (even by accurately affixing the terrible terminolgy of the Third Reich where necessary), and seek to move beyond them. Let us never forget.

You can be sure that as long as I keep seeing these kinds of parallels I will continue to call you out loud and clear. If that troubles you, I suggest a migration to climes better suited to the gaits of geese.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 1:23 AM on October 8, 2002

Well said, foldy. You've got my vote. ~wink~
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:08 AM on October 8, 2002

Well said, foldy. You've got my vote. ~wink~

Thanks. And sorry about all the disparaging bird references, ya wonder chicken, you.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 2:12 AM on October 8, 2002

Well, in all fairness, the only reference made was "goosestepping" which in and of itself is not unique to the Nazi regime. It's about conformity and following the leader. I just can't see what all the ruffled feathers are about.
posted by hama7 at 2:32 AM on October 8, 2002

"a migration to climes better suited to the gaits of geese"

let's leave geographical determinism out of it, left coaster!
~returns to reading Hitler's Wien~

posted by sheauga at 2:53 AM on October 8, 2002

"This sure as hell isn't the first time he's danced around...."

Stop right there! It's the dancing I object to. The last time anyone tried to dance here it all ended in tears when Miguel dropped a lit cigar down Coldchef's neckline. That unseemly episode set a precedent that we would all be foolish to ignore.
posted by lucien at 3:16 AM on October 8, 2002

I think references to nazism would be less wearisome if the people who made them had more of a clue about the history of that time. The events of the first half of the twentieth century - encompassing the first world war and the Russian revolution - were so massive that in the space of a generation they changed the political and intellectual landscape of the West totally and forever, leading to ideas becoming intellectually respectable which wouldn't find an audience now. In comparison we live in stable, enlightened times. There'll always be evil about but we've got a long way to go before we even approach the kind of turmoil that led to nazism.
posted by Summer at 3:22 AM on October 8, 2002

sorry about all the disparaging bird references
(f&m)

Well, in all fairness, the only reference made was "goosestepping"
(hama7)

There goes foldy's reputation as an animal lover!

[insert gif of reputation flying away, wings folded and mutilated]

I mean what have geese ever done to you? Do you really believe they walk like Nazis? And Mother Goose - did she not guide you through your first steps in the English language? And, above all, Grey Goose vodka - that was the clincher. By all means do not forgive the French their collaborationism - but grant them their ability to make superior booze, damn you!

~Honk! Honk!~
posted by MiguelCardoso at 3:22 AM on October 8, 2002

I'm with Dan here, the Nazi bullshit really is pointless.

"I don't agree with you guys, so you're all goosestepping, Big Brother-loving Nazis"
These are pure McCarthyite tactics, only they're used by an extreme left winger. (Or, to play foldy's game, by a "Saddam-loving, Osama-worshiping, Khmer Rouge murderer")
This intolerant, dogmatic crap makes foldy the Pat Robertson of the Extreme Left

I will continue to call you out loud and clear.

Please enlighten us with your wisdom, foldy, I'm sure you'll also end up convincing us that eating a burger is the moral equivalent of raping a child, as you taught us here on MeFi
I can't wait

ps Foldy, I know that you see yourself as the Dalai Lama preaching to the MeFi Chinese. But you know, His Holiness has very good manners, unlike you (and I never heard him Godwinize himself)

posted by matteo at 4:05 AM on October 8, 2002

Foldy -

It looks to me like your point is: "What I say is dissent and belongs on MetFilter; other opinions are not welcome here, are dishonest and reflect a mindless conformism." It's a crap position, and screams hypocrisy to me.

There is a case to be made for an attack on Iraq, there is a case against it. Both have the right to be heard, and MetaFilter is a place where both sides should be welcome to discuss the issues - not a place for a left-wing consensus or a right-wing consensus; both sides have an equal right to speak. You cannot, in good conscience, argue that left-wing and anti-war voices are suppressed on MeFi - they're the majority. On this forum, it's probably more accurate to call Dan the voice of "dissent," wherever Dan's views fall on the broader spectrum of non-MeFi political opinions.

The issue shouldn't be "Who do you agree with?" It should be "what's your point?" For instance, England fought the Nazi's in WWII - would it be wrong to support that? Or does supporting a majority opinion (i.e., not "dissenting") inherently make your opinions invalid? Sometimes the majority is right. I'm not saying this is true or not true re. Iraq - I'm saying that dissent isn't always right and majorities aren't always wrong.

The language you use (and often the language from the other side as well) often (as in this case) obscures the arguments you want to make, and casts things in an good vs. evil/stupid/everything-wrong with history/right-wing form. It makes someone need a superhuman sense of decency to debate you because you're not arguing, you're insulting. You're tarring by association, and frankly in this particular case your associations are dead wrong and the historical parallel you are drawing is as off base as calling you the "Hangman of the Ukraine" or another Stalin or whatever.
posted by fluffy1984 at 5:15 AM on October 8, 2002

As with most buzz phrases, I consider the context. If the phrase is not used well, that reflects on the quality of the opinion expressed and the credibility of the writer.

posted by mischief at 5:15 AM on October 8, 2002

foldy, while I often disagree with the way you pose your statements, if not the statements themselves, I have to applaud this very well-thought out comment. It has a distinct logic that flows from point to point in a calm and natural manner. You explain your position with dignity and respect. Well done, sir.

Who can explain to me why American Politics is so divisive and usually erupts into a fistfight between those who unwisely decide to talk about whatever issues there may be?
posted by ashbury at 5:32 AM on October 8, 2002

Who can explain to me why American Politics is so divisive

I think it has something to do with professional wrestling, but I'm not sure exactly how.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:51 AM on October 8, 2002

Of course American politics are divisive! What you need are thirty or forty political parties, like us advanced European nations.;)
posted by MiguelCardoso at 6:00 AM on October 8, 2002

The words "goose stepping" always conjure up images of Stalinist Russia for me, not Hitler. No Godwin call there.

Any time a leader acts in a manner parallel with a past leader it is appropriate to point it out, regardless of how many call for silence or whether it involves Hitler, Mussolini, or Van Buren!

No need for the metatalk wood shed treatment for foldy exists. Keep up the good work!
posted by nofundy at 6:29 AM on October 8, 2002

Hama7-cute article. Did you know Hitler was a COMMUNIST for a few days, even wore the red arm band. Hitler was a spook, recruited to infiltrate 'subversive' political parties.

Foldy is a troll, who rarely, if ever responds to refutation. Why? because he cannot. He incites and he has pissed off Dhart. and now he has pissed me off. see, refute foldy- back under the bridge he goes. What a sad person. Foldy attacks like a coward then he hides under his bridge collecting more tokens from the fools and monkeys who feed him.

So yeah, given that, I'll tweak you humorless fuckwits a bit thats all you CAN ever do. tweak-tweak.
posted by clavdivs at 7:42 AM on October 8, 2002

f_&_m has many talents, it must be acknowledged. These talents are noxious and horrific, but they're there. There is first of all the tone, which invariably invokes the image of Insufferable Dorm Room Guy, obviously so in love with his own rhetoric and labored, tortured prose to the extent that one proto-thought necessitates something like six paragraphs.

Also present is the Divine Gift of Universal Condescension, an attitude which, while bestowed on precious few humans, is present in every living cat. This mysterious gift enables such behavior as cryptic scare-quoting of user names and a staunch refusal to even pretend to take counter-arguments seriously. Instead, such arguments should be mocked in the broadest, least funny way possible.

Finally, there is--I am sad to admit--an artfulness all of this. f_&_m doesn't piss all over every thread that he has a mind to like your average awful contributor. He displays a diabolical restraint; just when you thought that perhaps the all-clear could be sounded, he suddenly sparks up a fresh flaming load of horseshit and ~ca-razy~ *nutty* #pointless# {stuff} &like& @this.@ See, he's inventive! Or something.

Bah.
posted by Skot at 9:01 AM on October 8, 2002

Hey, lay off the cats, you. (Well, except for that pissing part. That's true.)
posted by taz at 9:25 AM on October 8, 2002

Right. So not only does he get to call people Nazis, he's applauded for it. Is Metafilter really this type of place?
posted by dhartung at 9:27 AM on October 8, 2002

If f&m were a right-winger, I highly doubt he would be as tolerated as he is.
posted by owillis at 9:36 AM on October 8, 2002

"Fussing and flapping in priestly black like a murder of crows." - Sting

"You'll get a field. Empty. Suddenly the sky is black with birds. And they fall like a ragged black rain onto a field, covering it completely. Or almost completely. In the center of the field, there's an empty space. And in the middle of that space sits one lone rook. It caws, and calls, and caws some more. They have enough of a language that even humans can tell the difference between their danger calls and their all-clear calls. They can imitate human speech. But there's something else: the mystery. It's a mystery from which we derive the collective noun we use for these birds. Like a murder of crows, a tiding of magpies, an unkindness of ravens . . . a parliament of rooks. Ten thousand little eyes stare at it, unflinching. Sometimes they call out, as if they're asking questions. It's like a parliament. It's like a trial." - Neil Gaiman
posted by ZachsMind at 9:39 AM on October 8, 2002

Well, what happens when someone calls for a moratorium on Hitler references? Steve and Dagny use it to red-bait. Since we're declaring jihad on Nazi references why don't go ahead and declare it on Stalin references, too?
posted by octobersurprise at 9:52 AM on October 8, 2002

I can't believe how many of you fuckwits goose step behind this Nazi F&M. His diatribes certainly bring to mind the rantings of Hitler, but if you wish to act like a brownshirt, I guess it's your right.
posted by Plunge at 9:53 AM on October 8, 2002

Way to go, Plunge. What's sauce for the goose stepper is sauce for the gander stepper.
posted by timeistight at 10:04 AM on October 8, 2002

Right. So not only does he get to call people Nazis, he's applauded for it. Is Metafilter really this type of place?

Come on dhartung...you've been here longer than most and you still need to even ask that question?

I believe that it was established, long ago, that fold_and_mutilate's "contributions" are par for the course.

In fact, not to dredge up old arguments, but MeFi leans left. It always has, and unless a group of rather conservative internet junkies appear, it always will. The trick is to filter out the garbage, which these days (or any days in the past 2 years) borders on excessive, and take what you want from this site. Which is why so many leave, angry. That sense of ownership and, damn you've ruined it now, come out and we receive MeTa threads like evanizer's departure. Really, as Haughey once said before, MeFi hasn't changed...only the characters are different.

And if I truly believed anything that I've written above, I'd delete this comment because it simply adds to the noise that has become the norm here.

::sigh:: I hope the newbies enjoy this place. Cuz every 3-6 months, MeFi becomes a new offspring of the same animal.
posted by BlueTrain at 11:42 AM on October 8, 2002

So much Durm and Strang from a certain element here....let's play in the rain, shall we?

There'll always be evil about but we've got a long way to go before we even approach the kind of turmoil that led to nazism.

Let us take steps to ensure that, shall we?

matteo writes: "'I don't agree with you guys, so you're all goosestepping, Big Brother-loving Nazis'" These are pure McCarthyite tactics....)

You quoted me above as saying "I don't agree with you guys, so you're all goosestepping, Big Brother-loving Nazis'". Now I never said that, and you knew that even as you wrote it. But you were willing to cravenly distort (ala MidasMulligan in the original thread) and indicate that I had, weren't you? That's McCarthyism....

clavdivs: He incites and he has pissed off Dhart. and now he has pissed me off. see, refute foldy- back under the bridge he goes. What a sad person. Foldy attacks like a coward then he hides under his bridge collecting more tokens from the fools and monkeys who feed him.

Nope. Wrong again. I'm right here, as always. You are the one merely calling names. You are not attempting to refute anything whatsoever. Is it any wonder people don't typically take the time to respond to drivel like yours?

Get it straight. A comment like yours (which is so much of the response from some here to what I write) ain't "refutation". It's just anger, and not even anger written cleverly or very well. Such a comment is not worth the time it takes to even read it, much less respond to it.

tortured prose to the extent that one proto-thought necessitates something like six paragraphs.

~laugh~

Now THAT hurts. But unbelievably funny in a response that I suppose is trying to somehow support *dhartung*.

fluffy: It looks to me like your point is: "What I say is dissent and belongs on MetFilter; other opinions are not welcome here, are dishonest and reflect a mindless conformism." It's a crap position, and screams hypocrisy to me.

Kindly point out to me where I have said that any other opinions are not welcome here. Opinions may indeed be dishonest and reflect a mindless conformism, but unlike some here, I do not call for fewer comments on important issues. I consistently call for more and more light on these issues, from wherever they may come. I do not cry out to authority like dhartung (to mathowie in the original thread, then to MeFi here again in MetaTalk) and his ilk do in an effort to limit the quantity or quality of dissent to their liking.

If you take the time to look, you'll find that the neverending calls for conformity and restriction on comments come from the same tired crowd here. As I mentioned before, I think that attempts to limit dissent speak volumes about them and their positions.

On this forum, it's probably more accurate to call Dan the voice of "dissent," wherever Dan's views fall on the broader spectrum of non-MeFi political opinions.

Frankly, that's complete nonsense. His "voice" in this country echoes precisely the bleating of the majority, and of those in power (now I've done it...another animal metaphor). And unlike he, I continue to encourage his posting whatever he likes here.

It makes someone need a superhuman sense of decency to debate you because you're not arguing, you're insulting. You're tarring by association, and frankly in this particular case your associations are dead wrong and the historical parallel you are drawing is as off base as calling you the "Hangman of the Ukraine" or another Stalin or whatever.

Bullshit. Personal insult is the overwhelming response to most of the positions I take here...personal insult unaccompanied by any attempt at refutation whatsoever. Now, that's ok with me. I don't come whining thin-skinned into MetaTalk every time someone tells me I'm a godless treehugger. I'm frankly OK with personal insult in response to what I say: it speaks volumes.

And as is typical, you too have not shown how the associations you decry are wrong, and so you are behaving precisely as dhartung has (which I trust is out of character for him): unable to show how the parallels are not accurate, incensed at their accuracy, and willing to stoop to tantrum to get them to stop.

dhartung: Right. So not only does he get to call people Nazis, he's applauded for it. Is Metafilter really this type of place?

Right. You have decided that no one may invoke the horrors of certain *positions* here by accurate, irrefuted comparison, because it just hurts your feelings too much.

Is MetaFilter really this type of place?

Thanks folks. I wish I could say that something about this was at all enlightening, but it really boils down to the same tired nonsense from some here on MeFi:

- Ugly parallels are drawn.
- No one shows that the parallels are inaccurate, and the truth found there is the source of the real pain.
- Tantrums ensue. Some are so distressed by their confrontation with a little truth that they run, or publicly long for the good ol' days when mirrors hadn't been put up in every shithouse on MetaFilter.

Bottom line: the real ugliness lies in the positions in question... and in that the parallels are in fact drawn accurately -- equidistant from other troubling lines, and heading in the same ugly direction. Next time, some of you should try decrying the ugliness of the lines themselves, and not the geometer who merely points out that they lead to the same point on the horizon.

posted by fold_and_mutilate at 11:57 AM on October 8, 2002

Durm and Strang get a dictionary......Strum und Drang oh....logopoeia. Juxta-huckerstering i say.

Such a comment is not worth the time it takes to even read it, much less respond to it. you did.

You heard right. Saddam and Osama and me and Shrub have those same goddammed things deep inside each of us. It's like we're being universally fucked. as opposed to being just plain F$%&*# ?

"Those same traits are in Hitler preparing to invade in 1939.'" he did invade in 39'. He also attacked other countries before this.

I really have no tolerance whatsoever for fools trying to silence questioning voices, or sandless, psuedo-intellectual idiots who think war is the E-ticket ride of international relations, justifiable because "our interests" (let's see, are "our interests" spelled lebensraum?) are paramount...

you bitch about no historical thinking on Mefi. you don't know jack about history. you just spew. The Lebensraum speech was given in 33' and STALIN HELPED HIM DO IT a few years later.

Bullshit. Personal insult is the overwhelming response to most of the positions I take here...personal insult unaccompanied by any attempt at refutation whatsoever

I'm here foldy, refuting you. it is easy, so very easy. Nothing you post has any intellectual content. Hell you even steal the 'Gad' out of Gadfly.

Bottom line: the real ugliness lies in the positions in question... and in that the parallels are in fact drawn accurately
take your own advice. stop with the hand wagging and post something serious. Miguel and I and others had a wonderful conversation on Eliot the other day. Even though Miguel and I may not agree, i respect his take on the matter. I'm sure that kind of thinking is beyond you. prove me wrong.
posted by clavdivs at 12:29 PM on October 8, 2002

~wild applause~
posted by timeistight at 1:07 PM on October 8, 2002

I've had a good look at the original thread and find that F&M, bless him, indeed does go over the top here: "Let us know when "MIdasMulligan" or "dagny" or "dhartung" calling for an end to criticism of the current adminstration (or getting all panicky when someone rightly points out the troubling parallels of stifling critical viewpoints) here on MetaFilter amounts to anything other than goosestepping, will ya?"

Never have I seen Dan call for a suppresion of dissent, nor - in many readings of his posts - have I ever thought he had the frame of mind which leads to blindly following the Administration.

Foldy, you risk losing your own constituency by such lax, damn-close-to-slanderous characterisations. Some of your chosen enemies are badly spotted, and are getting hurt in the cross-fire. People do have their reputations, and their character to protect: we will be able to find this stuff in years to come.

Otherwise, lighten up, f'fux'ache. Insert owillis's favourite jibe [here].
posted by dash_slot- at 3:15 PM on October 8, 2002

Foldy, you risk losing your own constituency

foldy and his constituency

a taste of your own medicine, doctor

posted by matteo at 3:38 PM on October 8, 2002

(reminder to self: dont anger Matteo)
bravo sir.
posted by clavdivs at 3:49 PM on October 8, 2002

Trite. Unnecessary. Guilt by association. Inaccurate. Cliché. facile. Peurile.

McCarthy-ite.
posted by dash_slot- at 4:06 PM on October 8, 2002

I have family members whom defended the accused during H.U.A.C.

your adjectives serve nothing but weak retort.

If you knew anything, I have chastised Matteo in the past. and he I. It's not like where pals. just enjoyed foldy getting a well deserved throttle.

So, are you accusing me of McCarthysim?

Never have I seen Dan call for a suppresion of dissent, nor - in many readings of his posts - have I ever thought he had the frame of mind which leads to blindly following the Administration

I agree. am i still a proto-joe?

foldy attacks Dhart because he is probably the finest active poster around here. IMO.



posted by clavdivs at 5:03 PM on October 8, 2002

because he is probably the finest active poster around here

dhartung is certainly the one who has provided the most links for the longest time. and MeFi should be first and foremost about the links
I've sometimes disagreed with him but he is a great user, and a great asset for this community (for those of us who are interested in good links, at least)

posted by matteo at 5:19 PM on October 8, 2002

Nasty. Very nasty. I suppose I should be surprised by the level of vitriol and unpleasantness, but I'm not, actually.

he hides under his bridge collecting more tokens from the fools and monkeys who feed him

So I'm a fool? clav, friend, you can kiss my ass.

I've stood up for dhartung in recent times, and praised the man, and I've done the same for foldy in this thread, because I have respect for both of them, based on their contributions here. You lot of villagers with torches just make me weep for humanity, though.

(And, on topic : Dan, even if foldy did imply that he thinks you're a big fucking nazi, just get over it, OK? I seem to recall you calling someone 'a fucking idiot' or words to that effect (I'm to lazy to find it) in the last week or two, which went unremarked. Is that permissible, then?)
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:21 PM on October 8, 2002

Never have I seen Dan call for a suppresion of dissent, nor - in many readings of his posts - have I ever thought he had the frame of mind which leads to blindly following the Administration.

As I previously noted, I'm willing to believe this nonsense is out of character for him. But I suggest you reread the original post once again, and ask him why he reserved his special little tantrums for "someone rightly pointing out the troubling parallels of stifling critical viewpoints." At no time did he point out how the analogy was inappropriate. Instead, he merely fell into lockstep with "dagny" and "MidasMulligan", with multiple sashays toward authority. As I pointed out, that IS goosestepping.

People do have their reputations, and their character to protect: we will be able to find this stuff in years to come.

If any are concerned with their "reputations", then I recommend they not post tripe that is obviously "goosestepping" and worse. When they do, I and others will continue to call it for exactly what it is.

foldy and his constituency

a taste of your own medicine, doctor

Nope. As usual, your particular medicine is an impotent placebo:

What is lazy is when terms from that era are thrown about with no explanation of how and why they do apply (e.g. the simpleminded "Bush = Hitler" is obviously lazy -- but "the Bush administration scapegoating Muslims in this country is like Hitler scapegoating Jews" is not. Or my own personal favorites: "Bush followers are goosesteppers" IS lazy...but "those who disparage dissent have the gait of geese" is not).

Or for matteo and clavdivs and the simpler-minded, fold_and_mutilate = Osama.

~wink~
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 5:25 PM on October 8, 2002

If you take the time to look, you'll find that the neverending calls for conformity and restriction on comments come from the same tired crowd here. As I mentioned before, I think that attempts to limit dissent speak volumes about them and their positions.

Let me be perfectly clear. I do not have a problem with your "dissent", no matter how saintly you wrap it.

I have a problem with your fucking "Nazi" insults.

But then, you know when you're making them that they will anger people, especially when they are not -- like Midas's general comments about the "liberal media" -- aimed into the air, but at fellow members of this website. You fully intend that anger over your insults will make people "fail to refute" whatever nonsense it is you're peddling that day (usually involving Nazis, Orwell, fascism in general, or other lazy metaphors; you really don't have a wide range of response). If someone gets mad at you, as in this thread, you'll whine that they're trying to "silence" you, and pull out your same tired "goosestepping" line. This is pretty much a standard Usenet hook-line-sinker baiting technique, and I am ashamed that I fell for it. It's boilerplate argument, foldy, and it's hard to believe you're really back-slapping yourself for doing it; it's entirely possible that you're just trying to rile people more by acting smug.

As for me, I just want you to stop the fucking Nazi insults.

Obviously I can't expect even that modest amount of respect from you as a fellow member of the community. That's the most disappointing part of this.
posted by dhartung at 5:40 PM on October 8, 2002

Wish I had some coffee to offer, but nevertheless, It's time, gentlemen...
posted by y2karl at 5:44 PM on October 8, 2002

clav, friend, you can kiss my ass.

geez, where did this come from. You wanna get personal Stavs?

So I'm a fool? did i say "Stavs is a fool?" No? Are are you just taking my name in vain? and if you have been following other threads, I've given Foldy his points. He has raised one of the most crucial questions in history..."Have we become more enlightened". weep for humanity...? Have another drink. you have been doing nothing but mucking up the place lately. I don't care for what ever reason, that is your own affair. that is why i have not addressed your rants. mainly because of some of the stuff i read on your site, that story about the Koreans chastising you or something. It meant something to me then...but this is now. I thought I would defend you because perhaps you are having a hard time. SO ARE ALOT OF US.
What have you done lately to make the world better lately? See, I'm at my wits end with my life but sometime last week i decided enough was enough, try harder and all that life shit. Hell, i saved my dogs life recently, been helping the kids with their homework, trying to be a good person. and i decided to make a better person of myself in MeFi because I'm an ass stavs. but i have a heart. This war shit has directly effected me in more ways then you will ever know. But fuck the war. I try and do those things that need to be done. frikkin pumpkin seeds. opening doors for people, talking to friends, lending my ear when I've bent theirs for so long. Foldy has a point and i hope he...hell, foldy will be foldy.

so here we are. clav, stav, and foldy. all ranting at another, in almost real time. and if your logic deduces that pumpkin seeds and opening doors will not stop the supposed oppression that my country imposes on the world then you know little.
shalom stavs.
posted by clavdivs at 5:52 PM on October 8, 2002

Karl. you just made me choke on my own ciggertte and i love you for it.
even though you hate me. you are still King of Internet radio.
posted by clavdivs at 5:54 PM on October 8, 2002

Let me add that I too am sick of all the Nazi, Stalinist--I'm looking at you, Dan--and eta etc et pejoratives & allusions...
Upon review: oh, stop feeling sorry for yourself, clav, you know that's not true...
posted by y2karl at 5:57 PM on October 8, 2002

& PS, thank you for the compliment but the statement will remain inoperative until the new server is up...
posted by y2karl at 6:01 PM on October 8, 2002

y2k: tat one always makes me laugh.

clavdivs: don't get upset. the string of comments from me were aimed at matteo

foldy: it does hurt to be called a Nazi, implicitly or not. dhartung does not "falling to lockstep". he actually responds, as ever thoughtfully and moderately.

you may be right about the worrisome trends in the states right now: however, I don't see dhartung as part of the move to supress dissent, in any post in the original thread. he posted an objection to you *after* you made your inappropriate analogies.

i'm coming round to think that its your repetition of the nazi motif which is calculated to shut people up.

I hope i'm wrong. i really do
posted by dash_slot- at 6:11 PM on October 8, 2002

I'm sorry stavs. about the drinking comment, see, i dont drink because it almost killed me and i, in turn could have killed another. that was unfair and frankly mean.The pumpkin seeds are just part of it. Fixing appliances, trying not have have the kids freak out because of these nuts shooting kids at random. trying to protect them from a creep in our own community with the "want some candy little girl" evil crap. trying to find stable work. (Do i sound like Dr. Phil or what)

thanks Karl. that meant alot.
posted by clavdivs at 6:17 PM on October 8, 2002

sorry for the snark dash_slot.
posted by clavdivs at 6:19 PM on October 8, 2002

no worries at all, clav.

best wishes 'n all that. (",)
posted by dash_slot- at 6:56 PM on October 8, 2002

Is there an emoticon for throwing up?
posted by y2karl at 7:24 PM on October 8, 2002

8^(=
posted by MrBaliHai at 7:42 PM on October 8, 2002

I should have known...

And 8^(°°°° for blowing chunks?
posted by y2karl at 7:47 PM on October 8, 2002

I love these threads. They're always good for a few chuckles. See something that angers you? Walk away. That's all ya gotta do. One of the most valuable skills I've learned in my life is ignoring people unless they can have a direct effect upon my life. It really should be taught in schools. Lengthen that fuse. You'd be surpised at how much stress is cut from your life.
posted by spungfoo at 8:04 PM on October 8, 2002

8^(~~~ for drooling
posted by jonmc at 8:08 PM on October 8, 2002

((((({{MeFi}})))))


posted by dash_slot- at 8:11 PM on October 8, 2002

Needless to say, I regret that one...


posted by dash_slot- at 8:12 PM on October 8, 2002

Should we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya now, or just get right to the oral sex?
posted by MrBaliHai at 8:32 PM on October 8, 2002

could we combine the two creating a new variation on the time honored "hummer"?
posted by jonmc at 8:46 PM on October 8, 2002

Mmmmmmm.........Kumbaya.
posted by ashbury at 8:48 PM on October 8, 2002

*unfurls bedroll*

*looks about, sees no-one*

*wanders off into sunset*
posted by dash_slot- at 8:52 PM on October 8, 2002

Well, clav, the 'have another drink' comment rolled off my back. I'm used to people flinging my honesty about myself back in my face when they're upset - doesn't bother me much. However, I am chagrined that you think I 'have been doing nothing but mucking up the place lately'. More like shocked, actually, and I'm curious as to why you'd say that.

Anyway, peace. I only tell my bestest pals to kiss my (shiny, metal) ass, anyway.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:18 PM on October 8, 2002

Cause he's a crank sometimes, stavrosthesensitivewonderchicken. Fuggedaboutit.

Hmm, Nazis, Stalinists, throwing up, blowing chunks, drool>oral sex.
MrBalihai, you frighten me sometimes.
posted by y2karl at 12:07 AM on October 9, 2002

You fully intend that anger over your insults will make people "fail to refute" whatever nonsense it is you're peddling that day

Check. Now it's my fault that you are unable to show how the parallels I drew are not accurate. It's my fault you can't refute what I say. Right. I surrender.

Let me be perfectly clear. I do not have a problem with your "dissent", no matter how saintly you wrap it.
Really? And no problem with any other "dissent" either? See my questions below....

I have a problem with your fucking "Nazi" insults.
As for me, I just want you to stop the fucking Nazi insults.

What a fucking coincidence! I have a fucking problem with fucking insulting behavior that reminds me and others of fucking 1930s Germany! If you're thin-skinned about references to that time, then I recommend you watch what you write, and don't get all worked up when your friends are called on their own boorish posts.

Let me be perfectly clear. An accurate analogy was made about specific behavior in a single thread. You and your buddies didn't try to refute that observation then, and you still haven't. You took my comment about it as a personal, all encompassing insult. That's your problem, not mine.

And now it's about "insults". Gee, when it started I thought it was about gratuitous use of "Nazi references". Hell, I'm just confused I guess...and curious about why you don't complain about the gratuitous use of "Stalin" references taking place on MeFi now, or in the past:

Or is it, perhaps, that Saddam is a two-bit Stalin who was the biggest thug in a junta of thugs and ascended to power on murder and stayed there through sequential waves of murder...
posted by dhartung at 11:10 PM PST on February 12

But it's not about "gratuitous references" anymore...it's about "insults"....

At this point, you're looking seriously like a troll.
posted by dhartung at 3:22 PM PST on April 11
slappy is a bullshitter, or a troll. Further engagement will be a waste of time.
posted by dhartung at 12:19 PM PST on October 21
I recognize that this person is fundamentally a troll. But he's not the only one....
posted by dhartung at 9:12 PM PST on January 28
....but perhaps unintentionally serving the purpose of showing that certain elements of the antiwar claque are wholly indistinguishable from a well-executed troll}; innumerable smart liberal people who should know better finding reasons to apologize for theocratic fascism
posted by dhartung at 10:25 PM PST on December 25
Do you really want to be thought a dittohead clod? Then keep it up.
posted by dhartung at 11:55 PM PST on August 17
I smell a troll. Go back to your natural habitat, jaybird: we're adults here.
posted by dhartung at 3:14 PM PST on October 29

~sigh~

Look, I really don't wish to be unkind, but just out of curiosity, a simple search on your posts shows that, for example, you use the term "troll" (a personal, dismissive, stereotyping insult...a few examples are given above...) here on MetaFilter a whole hell of a lot...gratuitously, in fact. You use that particular term a whole lot more in reference to posters and posts you dislike than I have ever used the term "Nazi" under any circumstances. You read all the childish personal invective above, and haven't said a word of regret or admonition about those particular "insults." I really haven't noticed you championing for an end to "insults" coming from repeat offenders here. Just how do you reconcile those facts with your tantrums over the last two days over what you now call an "insults" issue? Do you think labeling those with whom you disagree as "trolls" has any similarity whatsoever to certain twentieth century political movements....movements without morality?

I really don't expect an answer to those questions. But I'd urge you to think about them before you and a few other past purveyors of insult continue your hypocritical whining about the intolerable horrors of "Nazi insults" again.

(Oh yeah...and I'd urge you and a few others here to find, rent, steal, beg, borrow, buy, or send troops after a sense of humor...)
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 1:09 AM on October 9, 2002

France, and dash_slot-, surrenders


posted by dash_slot- at 9:09 AM on October 9, 2002

Ah. I see the analogy precisely: calling someone a disruptive poster is just as bad as calling someone a member of an organization most famed for brutal conquest and genocide.

Maybe you're trying too hard with your analogies. Maybe you should subsitute thought and argument for your cute little "Horst Wessel" references. Maybe you should recognize that assertion is not the same as argument, and that not all assertions are worth refutation.

For one thing, I have a life. I'm not going to spend it quoting your posts point by point.

If times today are as bad as you say, you ought to be capable of arguing that without bringing in references to the (arguably) worst monsters of the 20th century. To insist that you cannot do otherwise implies your incapability to move beyond low argument.
posted by dhartung at 9:52 AM on October 9, 2002

...
posted by y2karl at 10:27 AM on October 9, 2002

MrBalihai, you frighten me sometimes.

[Rubs hands together gleefully. Moves to phase II of evul plan]
posted by MrBaliHai at 10:30 AM on October 9, 2002

"Round here, we are not very keen on the notion of banning words of any kind. The time has come to make an exception. The following words should be banned henceforth from political discourse: 'Hitler' and 'Nazi'"
posted by dash_slot- at 12:13 PM on October 9, 2002

"wdn't it be silly to be serious, now:
I mean, the hardheads and the eggheads

are agreed that we are an absurd
irrelevance on this slice of curvature

and that a boulder from the blue
could confirm it: imagine, mathematics

wiped out by the wandering stone, or
grecian urns not forever fair when

the sun expands: can you imagine
cracking the story off we've built

up so long-the simian ancestries,
the lapses and leaps, the discovery

of life in the burial of grains:
the scratch of pictorial and syllabic

script, millennia of evenings around
the fires: nothing: meaningless

our only meaning: our deepest concerns
such as death or love or child-pain

arousing a belly laugh or a witty
dismissal: a bunch of baloney: it's

already starting to feel funny: I
think I may laugh: few of the dead

lie recalled, and they have not
cautioned us: we are rippers and

tearers and proceeders: restraint
stalls us still-we stand hands

empty, lip hung, dumb eyes struck
open: if we can't shove at the

trough, we don't understand: but is
it not careless to become to local....."

-A.R. Ammons, from 'Glare'
posted by clavdivs at 12:52 PM on October 9, 2002

Ah. I see the analogy precisely: calling someone a disruptive poster is just as bad as calling someone a member of an organization most famed for brutal conquest and genocide.
No. You apparently can't see anything. You are precisely the one who respun the issue to "insult", which led to my discussion on "insult". Now you don't want to discuss "insult". And kindly point out precisely in which post I came right out and called you a Nazi.

Let me try to understand. Perhaps you just can't see the difference between saying "dhartung, you are a Nazi", and merely pointing out what I trust are surface similarities between, for example:

So at heart I am considering the question of whether a moral foreign policy is possible. I'm almost certain, now, that in the long run it is not.
posted by dhartung at 10:33 AM PST on November 22
http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/12548

"In this connection we naturally cannot accept questions of right and wrong as a basis of discussion. The loss of this war would constitute the greatest wrong to the German people, victory would give us the greatest right..."
posted by Joseph Goebbels on May 8, 1943 (unknown MeFi user ID, and MetaFilter link unavailable...see World War II, Sulzberger, 1966, pg 323).

Yes, I took your words out of their context (the link is there). Nevertheless, that was your conclusion to a post you made on war and foreign policy. Yes, I took Goebbels words out of context. That was his conclusion at the end of musings on foreign policy. Do I think dhartung = Goebbels? NO. Do I think the ideas expressed are similar? Yes. Do you take the comparison personally? I suspect you may, but if so I think that's a problem within you. Do I and others sometimes see other disturbing parallels to past events? Yes. Will I continue to point those out? Yes. Does that period of time hold any relevance to today? Yes.

Like I said before, post whatever you like. The more the merrier is my philosophy. Post excerpts from Mein Kampf if you want. It may prompt a useful discussion. But don't have a cow if someone notes parallels.

Maybe you should subsitute thought and argument for your cute little "Horst Wessel" references. Maybe you should recognize that assertion is not the same as argument, and that not all assertions are worth refutation.

I take it you mean "thought and argument" like:

I see we got foldy's Hitler-Nazi comparison of the day. Or is he permitted two daily? I forget. mathowie, what is the limit these days?

Or maybe you mean that I should just think and argue by calling people "trolls"?

I've got a life too. I've taken more time on this issue than I usually do on what to me is a pretty trivial issue because I think you're probably worth it. Believe it or not I wish you well, and hope you don't take the same road as some recent folks and stop posting. There is some humor here - try and see it. Catch ya in the blue.

~wink~
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 2:05 PM on October 9, 2002

Nice one clav. I think that's just become my favourite poem for a time (and half a time). My favourite slice?

I mean, the hardheads and the eggheads

are agreed that we are an absurd
irrelevance on this slice of curvature

and that a boulder from the blue
could confirm it: imagine, mathematics

wiped out by the wandering stone, or
grecian urns not forever fair when

the sun expands
posted by walrus at 7:56 AM on October 10, 2002