Comments on: Do we really need more newsfilter posts?

Do we really need more newsfilter posts?

andrew cooke — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:25:49 -0800

newsfilter. in the last five minutes i've seen the same info via politech and slashdot. why does it need to be duplicated on mefi too? this is a place for interesting links, not breaking news. faq. wiki.

please, people, if you're interested in this kind of thing, read and post to appropriate sources. posting everything everywhere just makes a big muddy mess where the only distinction between different sites is the member list and moderation system.

By: xammerboy

xammerboy — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:29:30 -0800

Don't just point to it. Read it.

"As for the newsfilter call-outs, something just came to mind: I'm objecting to people doing it because is smacks of so much zero-tolerance bullshit. Again, the reasons why there are no hard and fast rules and only vague guidelines is because nothing is absolute. I'm saying yeah, 30 posts a day is too much, especially if they're all news items, but you know what? half of that is just fine, it's tolerable. Some have taken it as a sign that too many news links means no news links ever, and it's their duty to point this out, and that's what I have a problem with."
--Mathowie

I don't go to politech or slashdot.

By: vito90

vito90 — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:35:38 -0800

only distinction between different sites is the member list

That's enough of a distinction for me.

By: SpecialK

SpecialK — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:35:46 -0800

Eh. The Supreme Court case is important to people here at MeFi, and it's a continuation of a prior discussion. It affects copyright law, something that MeFi-ers have posted stories about over and over.

I don't see your point, except maybe that you're anal-retentive. If Matt didn't want it on the front page, he'd remove out. Now go away.

By: Songdog

Songdog — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:35:50 -0800

I'm sorry I annoyed you, andrew, but I think this is an interesting link. If you're scanning MeFi, politech, and slashdot, you can certainly skip past the repeats that you're bound to see. If I wanted to read what slashdot or politech people think about the issue, I'd have gone to those sites. I thought that it bore discussion among MeFites.

On preview, thank you, xammerboy. I thought my post was within the spirit of the guidelines, and it's certainly important.

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:38:44 -0800

This is a very relevant post to us all, and one that will foster discussion. Unless someone wants to set up an International Subject Allocation Bureau, ensuring each major story appears in only one major website, I'm very happy for MetaFilter to act as a place where I can learn about and discuss all the big relevant issues. I don't go to politech or slashdot, but I'm confident the discussion there is going to be significantly different to the discussion here, and I'm glad that all of them exist.

By: mcwetboy

mcwetboy — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:39:08 -0800

posting everything everywhere just makes a big muddy mess where the only distinction between different sites is the member list and moderation system.

You have a point here, but the problem is in the aggregate not the specific. I've lost track of how many times I've seen the same thing posted absolutely everywhere; sometimes something shows up on MetaFilter weeks after I saw it somewhere else. We're tracking a lot of memes and not exposing as much new material as we should. But pointing out one particular big-news item as a Newsfilter post -- especially since it's a big news item in some circles, and it's bound to get posted in one form or another -- probably doesn't do much to solve that particular problem.

And it actually doesn't have much to do with that problem, either. Big news stories will get posted; the problem with newsfilter is a constant stream of everyday news headlines, or the nth-millionth post on a certain (political) subject from a certain (partisan) point of view.

The point is valid; this just isn't a good example of it.

By: Songdog

Songdog — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:42:32 -0800

I also agree with andrew's point. MeFi shouldn't simply regurgitate major wire service stories. I just don't think that it does.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:44:57 -0800

PG, your comment in-thread was 1st Class!

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:48:22 -0800

quonsar, I actually can't remember writing it. It's the first day of my Slim·Fast diet, you see.

By: Stan Chin

Stan Chin — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:57:06 -0800

Newsfilter would be a fpp about that missing dead pregnant woman, because nobody but the internet community cares (scanning cnn.com/msnbc.com reveals no "BREAKING NEWS: CORPORATE AMERICA BASTARDS RAPE CONSTITUTION"). Also, despite reading up on this story for the last six months on all the hip fight-the-corporate-power websites, I personally nor 99% of people I talk who are not net savvy know what the big deal is about. Maybe if this copyright law was pregnant or missing or something.

("But it is pregnant! Pregnant our hopes of liberty! And Corporate America has kidnapped her!")

By: jonson

jonson — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:03:30 -0800

When is someone going to post that Maurice Gibb died?

By: rushmc

rushmc — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:07:13 -0800

in the last five minutes i've seen the same info via politech and slashdot.

And the rest of us should be punished for that why?

By: rusty

rusty — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:22:54 -0800

I saw the story on BoingBoing and came here specifically to see what MeFi had to say about it. The story is not the point, the commentary is. So put that in your "newsfilter" pipe and smoke it!

By: matteo

matteo — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:23:13 -0800

copyright laws. the Internet.
it's not another DC sniper / West Bank crappy news link.
copyright legislation, infringements, P2P etc are typical MeFi topics, and they deserve this kind of coverage. it's a good link, not really NewsFilter

By: andrew cooke

andrew cooke — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:33:59 -0800

I don't go to politech or slashdot.

well if you're interested in this kind of news, maybe you should. politech is (also) a mailing list.

in real life (tm) i would suspect that many mefi people prefer shopping in small shops where the owner takes care in selecting interesting products. in contrast, this kind of link is producing a walmart metafilter. just as supermarkets seem to be taking over the world, so mefi is edging more and more towards a general discussion board.

i believe mefi should focus on one thing and be good at it.

and copyright is important. i suspect i consider it more important than most of you, since i actively seek out this kind of info via sources like politech rather than waiting for the "highlights" to pop-up in the condensed, worry-for-one-thread-then-forget-it way that it will be dealt with here. which is another reason why specific forums are a good idea - you get more depth.

oh, and give the "matt will do it, shut up" thing a rest. as ever, this is what meta is for.

By: y6y6y6

y6y6y6 — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:41:02 -0800

"worry-for-one-thread-then-forget-it way that it will be dealt with here"

So........ Wouldn't this make anything non-trivial a bad Metafilter post? (I suspect you don't think so)

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:50:50 -0800

i believe ,

for every drop
of rain
that
falls

a flower grows....................

By: andrew cooke

andrew cooke — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:59:50 -0800

y6y6y6 why don't you check out that post a while back that gave greek names for strange debating tactics. see if you can find a description for generalising a particular argument to the point where it's meaningless and then claiming that's what's at stake.

my point is that this is being covered in a million different places - within 5 minutes it's appeared on a pile of different sites. why does mefi have to be yet one more, when it's a place for giving interesting links, not repeating what everyone else is doing?

it's important because it's news, not because it's a great link. if you're interested in this kind of news then read an appropriate site. it's not what mefi's for (imho) and certainly not what mefi's good at. being non-trivial news isn't what makes a good post, it's what makes interesting news. can't you see a pattern here?

hey, sgt serenity, maybe there's also a greek term for derailing a thread because you can't be bothered to frame a decent argument?

By: andrew cooke

andrew cooke — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:02:13 -0800

metafilter: sam walton would be proud of us.

By: RylandDotNet

RylandDotNet — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:05:25 -0800

This whole argument makes me tired, because it presupposes that MeFi is some kind of semi-official think tank and we have a responsibility to only post links that foster deep analysis and discussion. Bollocks. MeFi is more like a corner coffee shop where you get together with your friends and argue about the issues of the day. When all is said and done, the issues themselves aren't vitally important; if you've had a good conversation, it was a good issue. Who cares if it's been posted everywhere, and been discussed on other boards? This is our board and our conversation, and that's what counts.

But hey, that's just one man's opinion.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:18:52 -0800

metashoppers, i'd like to call your attention to special savings in aisle 4, Tommy Lee, Pam Anderson resolve custody dispute! meta-mart: always low class, always cheap.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:23:00 -0800

Andrew, give it a rest. The "Newsfilter" battle has been fought a million times before, Matt has said to cut it out (the complaints, not the posts, as long as the latter are OK, which this was), you lost a long time ago. Take a look at the front page.

i believe mefi should focus on one thing and be good at it.

And that one thing is... what Andrew Cooke wants to see on MeFi today?

By: Ty Webb

Ty Webb — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:49:27 -0800

Maurice Gibb died?

By: y2karl

y2karl — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:07:41 -0800

Dinah Washington and Brook Benton

By: wanderingmind

wanderingmind — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:09:59 -0800

I'm with Rusty on this. As soon as I saw the news (via Boingboing, too - helps to be alphabetically early, I guess), I knew that there'd be a great discussion about it on MeFi, and for the first time ever I felt like I really joined in and had things to say.

By: y6y6y6

y6y6y6 — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:17:41 -0800

"my point is that this is being covered in a million different places"

Okay. Fair enough. I'm with you in spirit. This is just the wrong dead horse to beat if you want to advance a serious "less news" argument. IMHO if 49 out of 50 news posts are bad, this would be the one good one.

And I love strange Greek debating tactics, including logic errors. I think everyone knows this. Asking me to adhere to regular rules of argument will only make your panties tighter than they already seem to be. Best to just ignore me.

By: jmd82

jmd82 — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:54:19 -0800

in real life (tm) i would suspect that many mefi people prefer shopping in small shops where the owner takes care in selecting interesting products.
Actually, i find these places are overpriced..I'm a cheap college student who prefers the cheap- I can find the interesting products on my own. Alas , I don't exactly have a lot of time to scour the Internet- This is one of the reasons I love MeFi. Woopy-ding that the copyright stuff is posted at other sites (of which I've only heard of /., which I hate). As Rusty so wizely pointed out, I'm not here just for the links, but also for the commentary *and* links that show up in the ensuing comments I can't find on cnn.com

By: quonsar

quonsar — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:18:30 -0800

how bizarre! i mention tommy lee and Ty Webb mentions maurice gibb and within minutes they both appear on the front page.

By: crunchland

crunchland — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 12:21:52 -0800

I smell a conspiracy.

By: jonson

jonson — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:31:35 -0800

Actually, I mentioned maurice gibb. Ty Webb just responded to my comment.

By: mokey

mokey — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:37:51 -0800

Well, I think it's dumb to post links to news articles. It might be only my opinion, but I think metafilter should not be linking news articles at all, that's boring, that's not what makes the web different to other media, that it can disseminate news. It should be linking to things that are specifically web-based, new and novel uses for the web (not that there are many, if any nowadays). Anyway, I for one am bored by topical news stories. We need more topics that are unique to the internet. That's why I sought out sites like this in the 1st place.

By: stefanie

stefanie — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:54:48 -0800

How about just not calling it MetaFilter (or NewsFilter) any more, since it's not doing so much of the filtering these days. I vote we call it: Well, I Thought It Was An Interesting Link or maybe DIY Filter, since everybody gets all snippy and says, "If you don't like the link, just skip it", which displays an amazing lack of comprehension of the meaning of the word filter, if you ask me.

Or maybe we could quit bitching and put up interesting, unusual links?

By: dg

dg — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:16:37 -0800

Now that's a novel approach, stephanie. Maybe you could start the trend yourself?

*sits and waits for stephanie's first ~~interesting, unusual~~ link to appear on MeFi*

By: jonson

jonson — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:22:00 -0800

Dude, go easy on her. She's only been a member for nineteen months. Plus, the site's been down a lot lately.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:47:40 -0800

you frame a decent argument and i will attend to it
in the most attetive of manners, you are posting reactively
like most people here with little interest in learning anything new and my singing of frank ifields classic is far more beautiful and elevating than many of your posts put together and pressed down with flowers.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:48:21 -0800

and anyone who disagrees is a cunt.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:53:54 -0800

and obviously, a music hating cunt as well! sing it sarge!

By: IshmaelGraves

IshmaelGraves — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:16:59 -0800

Philistines!

By: Opus Dark

Opus Dark — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:25:08 -0800

Sometimes, when I look up, I see sarcasm's underbelly flying by, and I wonder if I'm getting shorter or if I'm just ducking too soon.

By: hama7

hama7 — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:50:57 -0800

I think metafilter should not be linking news articles at all

Agreed, though songdog's post was unusual and wasn't the typical news BoreFilter mess. But really, this post could have chosen any of the other kerjillion news posts that bear a striking similarity in sensation to actually buying a newspaper and reading it.

CORPORATE BASTARD CONSTITUTION-RAPISTS!

By: SpecialK

SpecialK — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:09:44 -0800

it's not what mefi's for (imho)

And there, precisely is what's wrong with your argument. It's your opinion, and the community has just told you it's not valid. Why are you still arguing?

"As for the newsfilter call-outs, something just came to mind: I'm objecting to people doing it because is smacks of so much zero-tolerance bullshit. Again, the reasons why there are no hard and fast rules and only vague guidelines is because nothing is absolute. I'm saying yeah, 30 posts a day is too much, especially if they're all news items, but you know what? half of that is just fine, it's tolerable. Some have taken it as a sign that too many news links means no news links ever, and it's their duty to point this out, and that's what I have a problem with."
--Mathowie

That's what the guy whose opinion matters on the site says. Any questions?

Metafilter has turned into a discussion of posted links site. It's a meta-weblog-filter. Weblogs are posting about this decision, because the community at large thinks it's important. Additionally, it affects the status of content on the Web, which is one of MeFi's other purposes as a community. MeFi is a central place to post, discuss, and debate these issues.

After the last explosion over NewsFilter, when Matt finally blew a gasket or two, there was nothing on the site for two or three days except for cool links. Honestly, it was great. But one thing was missing: discussion. There's not much you can say about a cool link except to say, "Wow, that's cool." Once someone's posted that, everyone just shrugs and moves on to the next link. And besides, that's what personal weblogs are for.

MeFi is a community. As such, it decides as a community what should be posted on the site and what's cool and what's not. Things that are cool at the moment are things that spawn discussions that provide insights. The thread you're calling 'newsfilter' on has spawned a lot of discussion and I've leanred new things by reading it, which means it's a good thread to post.
As matt so nicely said it, "zero-tolerance bullshit" doesn't fly that well around here. So stop flinging zero-tolerance poo all over the place, and we'll all move on and live happy ever after, ungkay?

Hee. Metafilter: Zero Tolerance Poo.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:24:52 -0800

Now, I totally disagree with andrew cooke on this one, mostly because this specific issue (Eldred etc) is definite Metafilter-fodder.

On the other hand, I strongly disagreed with Mathowie when he semi-ranted about 'zero-tolerance bullshit' when newsfilteritis came to a head a hew months ago, which everyone is so gleefully quoting here in this thread.

One of the principles of Metatalk as I understand it is to provide checks and balances to prevent organically-growing trends (which self-perpetuate, given the dynamic here) from getting out of control. In case I'm being too obtuse here, I mean specifically (for example) the tendency for newsfilteresque posts (a la that freaking sniper and so on) to snowball as more people see them on the front page and assume they're de rigeur, consciously or otherwise.

My point? Although I disagree with Andrew about the thread in question, I'm glad he raised the issue again. It's got nothing to do with this mythical 'zero-tolerance' issue, mathowiequotes notwithstanding. Andrew expressed an opinion, the majority disagreed, we all know where we stand. No loss, other than a few minutes of our time, and MeFi is better for it.

Mission accomplished.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:33:33 -0800

Also, this thread might be better served if someone would call out BGM for being a complete asshole.

Oh wait, I just did it. Namecalling and ad hominy grits : a nasty sandwich, this one.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:40:40 -0800

What SpecialK said.

One of the principles of Metatalk as I understand it is to provide checks and balances to prevent organically-growing trends (which self-perpetuate, given the dynamic here) from getting out of control.

Yes, stavros, but that's not what was happening at the time that Matt made his comment. The subject had been broached, discussed, and people had generally fallen wherever they were going to fall on the opinion graph. Unfortunately, certain people, unhappy that the action they desired was not going to be forthcoming--a blanket ban on any news-related post--were taking it upon themselves to act as vigilantes, trying to preemptively call out and shout down any vaguely new-related post as soon as it was put up. Quite rightly Matt objected to this attempt by a few to rule the whole.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:44:01 -0800

Fair enough, rushmc, but that's not what's happening here (an attempt by a few to rule the whole), and thus the comparison is inappropriate, even if the underlying subject matter is the same (ie newsfilteresque posts)....good point, though.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:47:05 -0800

Also (sorry, I keep hitting post too soon), I apologize for calling the 'zero-tolerance' issue 'mythical'. Faulty memory of mine : as rushmc notes, it was a reasonable characterization of what was happening at the time (although I slept through most of it and missed all the fun, being in a goofy timezone).

By: Wulfgar!

Wulfgar! — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:00:23 -0800

Also, this thread might be better served if someone would call out BGM for being a complete asshole.

Stav - we're trying, in a meFi way. Give peace a chance.

By: willnot

willnot — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:12:06 -0800

Yeah Stav - he's clearly trolling, and I probably shouldn't be feeding him. But, the opinions he's expressing are shared by many in society and even I'm guessing many that read MeFi, so it seemed worthwhile to address them.

The name calling I'm certainly not going to feed by responding to. Anybody can see the guy is just spewing inelegant flame-bait without any of us giving him what he wants by stooping to calling him on it in thread.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:19:05 -0800

...and I shouldn't have called him an asshole, I know. Pot, kettle. Whoops.

By: hama7

hama7 — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:37:57 -0800

Also, this thread might be better served if someone would call out BGM for being a complete asshole.

I love the expression "the twittering of peabrains"!

And anyway, BGM nailed some darn good points. All in all, a good read.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:46:16 -0800

...and I shouldn't have called him an asshole, I know.

Probably not, but a more dead-on description I have never seen. Let's hope he is gone soon, since he can't seem to comment without making personal attacks.

By: mischief

mischief — Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:49:46 -0800

Bureau of Shooting Yourself In The Foot: AndyC, I would have supported your newsfilter shoutout if you had called it on the dry ice post. ;-P

By: yerfatma

yerfatma — Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:21:27 -0800

...and I shouldn't have called him an asshole, I know. Pot, kettle. Whoops.

I'm going to have to disagree with you 100%. Somebody should and you did. I took a pass because I was arguing with him. Also because his "techniques" suggest a troll even though his posting history suggests those are actually his opinions.

It's be pot:kettle if you were a complete asshole who was intent on contributing nothing meaningful.

By: SpecialK

SpecialK — Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:12:12 -0800

Mmmmmmmm, grits.

By: y2karl

y2karl — Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:32:10 -0800

my singing of frank ifields classic is far more beautiful and elevating than many of your posts put together and pressed down with flowers.

Frank Ifield sang I Believe--maybe in the UK, but over here it was Brook Benton and Dinah Washington that sang I Believe--all we know Ifield for here is I Remember You.

I remember you-hoo
You're the one that
made my dreams come true...

and the fact that he had his hit in '62, which makes him a great pre-Beatles trivia question.

By: DevilsAdvocate

DevilsAdvocate — Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:37:40 -0800

Metafilter: Namecalling and ad hominy grits.

By: blue_beetle

blue_beetle — Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:18:43 -0800

If we don't post news links, how will we ever increase their ranking at news.google.com? If we don't validate google, we won't have the chance to post links about every single little enhancement it gets.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:31:23 -0800

but over here it was Brook Benton and Dinah Washington that sang I Believe

Gee, I always listened to the Frankie Laine version!

By: y2karl

y2karl — Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:50:21 -0800

yeah, and Pat Boone sang Tutti-Frutti, too, you'll be saying next...

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:50:39 -0800

well guys the central question here is:

does a flower grow for every drop of rain that falls or not?

By: y2karl

y2karl — Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:34:08 -0800

only if you believe

By: rushmc

rushmc — Thu, 16 Jan 2003 19:20:41 -0800

Pat Boone sang Tutti-Frutti, too, you'll be saying next...

Did he? I thought he just did Ozzy Osbourne covers....

By: Dark Messiah

Dark Messiah — Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:11:12 -0800

Did he? I thought he just did Ozzy Osbourne covers....

They're singing together, on a new song. Not sure when / where it'll be released. When two neighbours join forces, not even God can stop 'em.

By: sheauga

sheauga — Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:02:43 -0800

This isn't the most erudite post on copyright, but there is a specific MeFi angle on this story - we have a blogger, Lawrence Lessig, whose blogged website expresses a significant opinion, one that doesn't necessarily make broadcast news. The AP wire gives a reader a quick, easy hook to put Mr. Lessig in context. If there were ever an apropos moment to feature Mr. Lessig's web material, this would be it ...

It's easy to complain, gang, but howabout sitting down with a search engine and digging out some stuff that actually adds value to these threads instead? (My user page links to a few search tips.) Collaborative sniffing about almost always has the potential to produce a more interesting range of web material than a single front page post.

We don't all have access to a LEXIS - NEXIS password, you know.