Comments on: Metaspar: a proving ground for new members

Metaspar: a proving ground for new members

cup — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 09:54:19 -0800

While reading the recent MetaTalk discussion about opening the doors to new members, I had an idea:

What about creating a new system where people who want to become members can compete for membership?

(more inside)

By: cup

cup — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 09:56:38 -0800

Perhaps call it metaspar.metafilter.com:

1) Applications are opened at midnight on the first of the month and only the first 50 people get into MetaSpar for that month.

2) MetaSpar account is separate from a Mefi account and expires at the end of that month.

3) Posting is opened once every hour and only the first post each hour gets posted.

4) Each member can make only a certain amount of comments per post (or per day?).

*Note: The above restrictions are intended to keep bandwidth and amount of text to a minimum.

5) Metafilter members can vote on MetaSpar posts and comments.

6) The lower the Metafilter user number the greater the points assigned for each vote (for example, 20001-[user#]=points per vote).

At the end of the month, the MetaSpar member* with the most points gets full membership to Metafilter. The other 49 people are booted and another 50 are herded in for the next month's challenge.

*Note: If the server(s?) can handle more than one new user per month, we can adjust the number of contestants/winners accordingly.

All posts to MetaSpar are deleted at the end of the month (to conserve resources). Good posts that break a certain threshold of votes/points could automatically be posted to Metafilter so that they are not lost at the end of that month.

It would probably be a challenge to program but there are a lot of talented programmers among us who may be willing to offer their skills. Since the users and posts are erased at the end of each month the database would be small. Bandwidth may be an issue but AdWords or TextAds might be able to make up for that.

When I was anxiously waiting for the doors to open for the 17,000's rush, I know that I would have happily gone through a month of 'sparring' just to get user privileges in the blue room.

By: pizzasub

pizzasub — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 09:57:51 -0800

I like the idea, but I think it should be called MetaSpork.

By: yerfatma

yerfatma — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:02:13 -0800

Or perhaps they could just go down on someone in the MetaRestroom. How 'bout they post resumes detailing the most asinine thing they've ever argued with someone about and for how long. We'll multiply the time by the degree of asininity and the top 5 "winners" have permission to come aboard the S.S. Self Important. Are there truly teeming hordes right outside the doors?

By: riffola

riffola — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:07:38 -0800

I knew my 814 would account for something!

By: cup

cup — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:08:56 -0800

Are there truly teeming hordes right outside the doors?

I don't know if there are teeming hordes at the gates but I do remember what it was like waiting for the doors to open when I was on the outside.

By: Razzle Bathbone

Razzle Bathbone — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:09:51 -0800

I would be afraid some reality tv program producer would sue over it.

But if it involved a knife fight with Sushi-making robots, count me in.

By: mischief

mischief — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:12:56 -0800

Considering how big a circle jerk this is, they should get points for distance. ;-P

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:23:22 -0800

MetaSurvivor.

*secretly votes to kick ****** off the island*

By: dash_slot-

dash_slot- — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:39:02 -0800

"cup: would you please come to the diary room..."

/matt

By: quonsar

quonsar — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:41:04 -0800

Considering how big a circle jerk this is, they should get points for distance

that did it. i've just rofl'ed so hard the rest of the day is shot!
(oh, and mischief, steve morse ROCKS!)

By: orange swan

orange swan — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:45:22 -0800

I don't know if this is a bad or good idea, but it's certainly original. And my mind teems with ways to have fun with a MetaSurvivor.

Like we could kick an established member in need of some discipline into MetaSurvivor like a gladiator to the lions.

I say this knowing full well that I would a) never be voted onto MetaFilter from a MetaSurvivor and b) if I were made gladiator the lions would soon be licking their chops. But then membership has its privileges - like being smug.

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:50:14 -0800

I got tired just reading that. Why compete? If new members are going to be let in, just open the damn doors to the first n people to sign up.

By: widdershins

widdershins — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:55:49 -0800

I have no idea what Steve Morse has to do with anything, but he does indeed ROCK. That is all.

By: UncleFes

UncleFes — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:04:35 -0800

MetaSurvivor? No. MetaFearFactor!

By: gottabefunky

gottabefunky — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:08:20 -0800

MetAverageJoe.

By: angry modem

angry modem — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:13:22 -0800

I think this idea is overly complicated and a silly waste of time. But what do I know? I'm just a hairy moose.

By: Ufez Jones

Ufez Jones — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:41:50 -0800

Considering how big a circle jerk this is, they should get points for distance

MetaSurvivor? No. MetaFearFactor!

quonsar has to eat the biscuit.

By: substrate

substrate — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:43:23 -0800

As a proud member of the liberal cabal at Metafilter I'd be worried that this would lead a to a bias via selection due to the tyranny of the majority (if this majority really exists).

I also think there needs to be a swimsuit competition.

By: marcusb

marcusb — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:45:14 -0800

I certainly think the idea has some merit, in that it addresses two concerns of the community -- first, the desire to bring in new members and second, the concern to keep the level of discourse high. I think a selective admission process is a good idea, but I don't know if this suggestion is straight forward enough to catch on and get the job done. I'm thinking either an essay contest or a swimsuit competition.

By: konolia

konolia — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:49:37 -0800

Newprospectivemember: Will you accept this pancake?

By: trondant

trondant — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:58:00 -0800

Hot dog eating contest.

By: contessa

contessa — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:58:29 -0800

By: me3dia

me3dia — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:03:18 -0800

Fifty prospectives entah! One MeFite leaves!
Fifty prospectives entah! One MeFite leaves!
Fifty prospectives entah! One MeFite leaves!
Fifty prospectives entah...

By: pizzasub

pizzasub — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:10:30 -0800

Why should future members have to prove themselves more worthy than anybody else who joined before them?

Because they're not as good as we are.

By: furiousthought

furiousthought — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:20:23 -0800

1) Banish all Metafilter members from MetaTalk.

2) Allow new users to sign in to MetaTalk only. This turns MetaTalk into a peanut gallery a la Survivor Blog. They get to make fun of us as much as they want.

3) But, the new users will be judged by MeFites on their MetaTalk worthiness (somehow mumble mumble), and, on an x per month basis, allowed in the blue.

This will solve everything! Or not, but it'll be fun for a change.

By: y2karl

y2karl — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:26:04 -0800

The meritocratic approach could lead to a takeover by big brained mutants, who like, enslave the rest of us, you know.

MetaLotto would be egalitarian--make everyone buy or earn a ticket and webcast the rolling of the cage. And the winner is...

MetaTemptation Island also has a certain ring to it.

By: tr33hggr

tr33hggr — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:32:42 -0800

Battle Royale! Let's get it on!

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:55:59 -0800

Guys, the thing to keep in mind is that I wouldn't have made it in if this was the system. Is that really what we want our Metafilter to be?

Plus, we'd end up with all the loud ones.

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:57:04 -0800

I cast my 'aye' for the lotto.

By: mischief

mischief — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:18:36 -0800

"we'd end up with all the loud ones." Um, ye-eah! ;-P

By: scarabic

scarabic — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:21:17 -0800

Will someone please for once suggest a way to put more development time at Matt's disposal, instead of a new feature to develop?

By: bshort

bshort — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:40:21 -0800

He could ask for volunteers.

A few of us know a bit about coding.

By: mischief

mischief — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:12:59 -0800

Others of us manage coders.

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:22:50 -0800

Still others went to law school instead.

By: mischief

mischief — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:24:21 -0800

Law? Bah!

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:25:20 -0800

Hey, it pays the bills.

By: mischief

mischief — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:32:22 -0800

Are you suggesting then that potential MeFites sue their way in? ;-P

By: elwoodwiles

elwoodwiles — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:37:23 -0800

LOWER THE THUNDERDOME!!!!

By: Space Coyote

Space Coyote — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:46:40 -0800

If we allow the new members to be selected by competition, they'll be stronger than us and take over. We must put a stop to it.

By: Quartermass

Quartermass — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:02:01 -0800

LOWER THE THUNDERDOME!!!!

Now that was funny.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:38:06 -0800

if your'e someone trying to get into metafilter ,
email me and i'll pass on your pov to this thread.

By: vacapinta

vacapinta — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 16:44:19 -0800

Thats a nice offer sgt. serenity. You do know that non-logged in people cant see the email in your profile right?

By: languagehat

languagehat — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 16:58:23 -0800

If you're someone trying to get into MetaFilter,
e-mail me and I'll make fun of you in this thread.

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 17:53:57 -0800

Or perhaps they could just go down on someone in the MetaRestroom.

Is that at the service area off I-495 in Methuen? 'Cause I saw some guys there who seemed to be loitering.

By: ashbury

ashbury — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 19:29:39 -0800

Ick, I say.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 19:44:38 -0800

sgt.serenityatblueyonder.co.uk

theres only been one response so far,
from a nigerian princess who also wants me to help her
with some lost investments.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 19:58:15 -0800

Do not email me under any circumstances.

By: Jimbob

Jimbob — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:15:24 -0800

Combining this and this, makes me think that people are missing the major point of "reality TV". It's not about voting for someone to win, it's about voting for someone to be kicked out.

Hows about prospectives sign up to "vote out" existing members? Each week, an existing member is banned, based on the votes of the "outside public", and a randomly selected voter takes their place! Hell, they could even take their user name. Fun for all the family. This is not a serious suggestion, but it has kept me amused. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

By: Keyser Soze

Keyser Soze — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:22:45 -0800

Maybe it would be a better idea for Matt or someone representing metafilter to accept people's written emails on why they think they should be a member of Metafilter, then it can be posted and we could hold a vote on who we believe would make a good contribution to our family.

I guess I would not have won if that idea was in place when I got a membership, but ive seen myself "grow up" (haha, in a literate sense!) on metafilter since then.

What a conundrum. Either way, we are missing sincerely interesting new members with our current system in place.

discuss.

By: cup

cup — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:31:37 -0800

I didn't need to enter a competition for my membership, and neither did any one of the 14,000 or so before me and the 3000 or so after me. Why should future members have to prove themselves more worthy than anybody else who joined before them?

You are absolutely right - the idea is unfair.

Opening the gates wide, however, is also unfair. At some point the bandwidth/disk space/time requirements would exceed Matt's ability to provide them or the number of posts/comments per day would exceed anyone's ability to read them all and things would stop working. This would be unfair to Matt and everyone else who benefits from Mefi (members and visitors alike).

Closing the gates entirely is also unfair - to the people on the outside.

So which is least unfair?

The United States and a lot of other countries hold what is essentially a competition (green cards, visa applications, whatever) to let people in at a rate that would not jeopardize social stability and/or resource availability. Why not follow their example?

Since posts and comments are the bread and butter of Mefi, why not base competition on a person's ability to provide just that?

P.S. If my memory serves me correctly, when I joined only the first 20 applications each day were accepted so I did actually 'compete' to get in (time-based competition). If there were a metaspar at that time, I am sure that a better poster or more eloquent writer would have taken user.mefi/15372 and I would still be on the outside looking in. :)

By: gluechunk

gluechunk — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 21:28:19 -0800

And those people with cash and often buy a username. Looks like there's currently another eBay auction for a MeFi membership. (And no, I'm not connected with this seller.)

By: cup

cup — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 21:47:56 -0800

Will someone please for once suggest a way to put more development time at Matt's disposal, instead of a new feature to develop?

I thought I did when I suggested that there are a lot of talented programmers among us who may be willing to offer their skills.

We could set up a page where programmers who volunteered their time to Metafilter development would be listed by the amount of time they contributed. Clicking on the programmer's name would bring up their skills, experience and hourly rate. That way, when Mefi members need to hire programmers for commercial projects we could refer to this list first and hire someone who contributed to our community.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 21:54:30 -0800

Looks like there's currently another eBay auction for a MeFi membership.

Wish I'd registered a few sockpuppets way back when. Selling 'em might help me kick in some coin for my (unpaid, thanks to a very generous friend) webhosting for a good long while.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 22:03:44 -0800

this from a man who calls himself : "onehappyrat"

As much as I find myself reading MetaFilter, I can't imagine what would
happen if I actually could join in on the discourse (dare I call it that?).

That doesn't mean I don't find myself compulsively clicking on "new user"
now and again, even though I know it won't lead to an account...

hear the humility in this mans voice ye mighty and despair !

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 22:26:04 -0800

So which is least unfair?

Or, instead, we could do what we did last time, when I registered (after waiting two years), and just let in a certain number people of day for a month or two and then close it off again. It's not like we have to throw them wide open or have a competition. There are other options.

I seriously think this is a terrible idea. Not only would it encourage people to try and get attention, it would punish people who are quiet and only want a membership to make the occasional comment. I don't see the point of valuing the former more than the latter.

By: DaShiv

DaShiv — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 23:31:15 -0800

Lurkers rule.

Shit, I ruined it.

By: cup

cup — Fri, 07 Nov 2003 23:42:59 -0800

Or, instead, we could do what we did last time, when I registered (after waiting two years), and just let in a certain number people of day for a month or two and then close it off again.

Which is also an excellent idea. I wonder, though, how many good people with much to contribute do we lose because they got tired of waiting for the doors to open again.

Not only would it encourage people to try and get attention, it would punish people who are quiet and only want a membership to make the occasional comment.

Not necessarily. I personally would vote for someone who posts an excellent link or adds one extremely thoughtful comment before I would vote for someone who posts ten funny comments simply to get attention.

By: mokey

mokey — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 01:19:22 -0800

No, I think it's a bad idea, a meritocratic approach, even if there was a consensus on what was meritorious. I think it should be a random selection of people. I certainly think unused member accounts should be recycled, because there surely aren't 17,000 active posters on here! And this would save on hardware and programming resources, wouldn't it? Maybe inactive accounts should require an opt-in email?

I think that anyone interested enough to read and to want to be a member of this site is going to have something worthy to contribute. Really. As long as people aren't trolls I think randomness will provide more diversity and genuine interestingness. If a certain type of poster tends to be more successful than another, in a competition, it will make the site biased, one way or another. I mean, randomness obviates bias doesn't it? And we don't want bias, do we?

Yerfatma, your comment was very funny, I enjoyed it, thankyou.

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 01:53:03 -0800

And this would save on hardware and programming resources, wouldn't it?

No. Resources are only used by people who log onto the site, so it would accomplish nothing but an effective deletion of the records.

I would vote for someone who posts ten funny comments simply to get attention.

Now you're just getting personal, your drunken louse!

By: liam

liam — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 03:04:53 -0800

Ick, I echo.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 04:22:46 -0800

another voice from untouchables , this time someone called fetlock I started reading MeFi right after it's creation, when memberships were wide
open. I was amused, angered, amazed, and occasionally overwhelmed at the
informed and impassioned writing of many of the members. Instead of going
for it, I let myself be intimidated into not applying. It's gotten to be
pretty much of a habit to sit back and lurk, but just ever so often, I'd
really REALLY like to put in A Word or a FPP.

Why should I be allowed to join MeFi? Because I'm female, age 50, from rural
SW Idaho, and ain't NOBODY else on MeFi gonna match this pert-ic-u-lair
demographic persuasion coming outta this patch of the prairie.

Thanks for the chance to voice,
fetlocks

episode 3- quonsar gets married.

By: majick

majick — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 04:46:26 -0800

What part of "dude has no time to deal with new memberships" don't you understand?

By: carfilhiot

carfilhiot — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:38:50 -0800

really really really really really really really really really really really really dumb idea. you're basically saying that we want new memebrs to be the ones that can suck up for your vote the most, ie politicians. not to mention the ridiculous lower number gets more votes thing.

By: mischief

mischief — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:43:33 -0800

I'm female, age 50, from rural SW Idaho

Hey, country, you single? Not that marriage ever stopped me pursuing. ;-P

By: kenaman

kenaman — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 08:59:37 -0800

Anyone ever hear of cash offers for memberships?

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 09:14:04 -0800

Mmmm, the smooth taste of hubris.

By: thatweirdguy2

thatweirdguy2 — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 09:32:47 -0800

I just don't know.

By: alicesshoe

alicesshoe — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 10:09:50 -0800

What. Did I walk into a union meeting? Senior members have priority and are given more clout? I'm hardly worthy of assigning points.

The idea is bad. More members just means that there will be 250 replies to any post [imagine the time sink], besides, it's all dependant on Matt who has to wade through all the bickering in order to keep some semblance of quality. Plus, he hasn't got the time.

You want to start MetaFilter2, go ahead. You could nick the format and everything. [tongue placed firmly in cheek]

By: quonsar

quonsar — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 10:10:16 -0800

i ate all my paste.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 10:32:59 -0800

and now a sad tale of 2 missed signups :

I assume there are others like me who read Mefi daily,
for whom you people are a bit like characters in an
ongoing drama. Becoming a member would be like going
through the looking glass.

I've missed two signups. I hope I don't blow it again.

Hope to see you in the blue.

-JayDee-

let them know its christmastime this year guys : )

By: mischief

mischief — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:21:45 -0800

I claim TweedleDee!

By: languagehat

languagehat — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:36:36 -0800

I feel bad for people who discovered MeFi after signups were closed and long to join. (Not bad enough to let them in en masse, however.) I have no sympathy for people who sat around sucking on their thumbs for months or years, trying to make up their minds, and then once membership was closed realized "Gosh, it would be a really good idea to be a MeFi member!"

By: iconomy

iconomy — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:57:45 -0800

How does one get "intimidated into not applying"? Did someone go out to Idaho and make fetlocks an offer she couldn't refuse?

By: taz

taz — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 12:22:12 -0800

Ssssh!

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:25:03 -0800

another snippet from the waiting 'horde' which so far totals three people :

Hello and thanks for the generous offer to let us second-class citizens have our voices heard...

I came, apparently, just a little too late to sign up for Metafilter, but I read it obcessively, and have the same feelings about it as "JayDee"... I dislike the original competition idea, since I'd likely be a fairly unobtrusive contributor as well. As for representing a needed demographic, I haven't been hearing from any cynical, overeducated teenagers from rural Ontario in my time reading mefi- which is, I daresay, nigh on tragic.

signed andalucia which is my usual name for such internet shenanigans.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:30:42 -0800

More members just means that there will be 250 replies to any post

If you'd been around longer, you would realize that that simply isn't true. Prior to every opening of the membership there have been Chicken Littles crying it would be the end of the world, and it's never happened. In fact, it's been quite the contrary, improving the site dramatically each time. So this type of scare tactic won't work with those of us who have seen it all before.

the waiting 'horde' which so far totals three people

I'm surprised any non-member reads MetaTalk (where you posted your offer to receive emails). Why would they?

By: costas

costas — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:40:46 -0800

I really, really like cup's metaphor --I've been active in online communities for 10+ years now, and this was a mind-bomb. Thanks cup!

Now, to take cup's metaphor to its logical conclusion, I have to admit that as much as the idea appeals to me (I am an immigrant, BTW) opening the flood gates at this point will most likely be disastrous (even assuming Matt has infinite amount of time to devote to MeFi). So, how best to regulate immigration to our nice closed little corner of the web?

Most countries allow people to visit, and so do we (MeFi after all is readable by anyone, unlike some other weblogs). But also, most countries make it real hard to become a citizen of the country; you either have to put in some serious time as a visitor/worker (lurker in our case) or marry/be adopted by a citizen (the equivalent of entry-by-referral, an idea that was proposed a long time ago in MeTa). Note that no countries (that I know of) hold gladiator tournaments at the DMZ, letting you enter only if you survive (the Florida coast across from Cuba being darn close to that...) And in either the case of referrals or competitions for entry, the process is not only unfair, but is biased towards the opinions of those that are in the community already; there is no account for diversity or "new blood".

Of course, allowing long time visitors (lurkers) to join your community is the fairest approach of all: the person has already proven that they are motivated enough to join. But doing this on the Web is hard, technically. So, what's left?

The U.S. has this wonderful program, called the diversity visa lottery: regions of the world are assigned odds based on the current immigration rates to the U.S. from each region: the more people have already immigrated from each region the lower the odds are for future immigrants from the same region: ergo "diversity visa". It's a very Jeffersonian idea, and quite fair: not only do you explicity encourage community diversity but you also make it more likely for truly motivated people to join your community (as they can enter multiple times, and thus they are more likely to join by default).

How could you stage a diversity lottery for MeFi? I am stumped. Maybe we should all take a personality/opinion questionnaire and base new entrants on that --yeah, that'll be easy to implement... Or we could just have a plain lottery, without the diversity element, which is what most of us are voting for I think...

By: zorrine

zorrine — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:49:07 -0800

I started reading MeTa before I was a member so I could learn more about how the sight ran and where some of the members who commented in MeTa stood on various issues [MeFi related and not]. I don't see it as ridiculous to think that non-members (who really would rather be members) would read both the blue and the grey.

By: yhbc

yhbc — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 16:46:20 -0800

I'm surprised any non-member reads MetaTalk (where you posted your offer to receive emails). Why would they?

Oh, please. Lurkers always read MetaTalk. They also memorize every cult thread, and commit the foibles and background of prominent MeFites to memory (i.e.: Stavros: Canadian, but he lives in Korea. Can be grumpy.) That's what makes them good members when they ~~figure out how to~~ finally get in.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 18:11:32 -0800

Oh, please. Lurkers always read MetaTalk. They also memorize every cult thread, and commit the foibles and background of prominent MeFites to memory

Exactly. I'm always surprised when members don't know the basics; I'd been reading endless MeTa debates about the same old things long before I actually became a member (thanks again, Matt!).

costas's idea for a diversity lottery should be easy enough to implement; just have applicants write a "Why I Love Bush and His Iraq ~~War~~ ~~Crusade~~ Adventure" essay. Oh, that's too diverse? I dunno then.

By: taz

taz — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 20:08:39 -0800

(yhbc: stands for Your Humble & Beloved Commissioner, always brags about sneaking in)

By: majick

majick — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 20:48:18 -0800

I say again: What part of "homeboy said he has no time to deal with new users" don't you understand?

All the clamor and fetishistically weird proposed hazing procedure doesn't change the fact that Matt's not available to answer your prayer. If he were, I doubt that this thread or the previous one or the ten or so before that would have anything to do with it.

By: Steve_at_Linnwood

Steve_at_Linnwood — Sat, 08 Nov 2003 23:30:04 -0800

Personally, for the sake of Matt's sanity, I hope that he never reopens membership...

I have read too many times, in too many places that would-be trolls are lying in wait for the flood-gates to be opened.

By: calwatch

calwatch — Sun, 09 Nov 2003 01:41:22 -0800

What was wrong with the old time-based system? I got in that way.

By: alicesshoe

alicesshoe — Sun, 09 Nov 2003 08:19:44 -0800

Thank you rushmc for shedding light to my chicken little assumption that there would be 250 replies to any post. I was hoping Matt would clarify that himself, but if you say so.

What majick just said.

If magically there were 36 hours in a day, what calwatch said.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:09:08 -0800

Heya,

Add me to your list of the horde.. I've been reading for ages (although don't ask me exactly how long). All I know is that there's never been official new sign-ups during my lurkage. I do have one suggestion though, that I even emailed to mathowie not so long ago.

Got a response, and everything... well, one response anyway. Didn't get a response to this amount of detail, though... I suggested that new members could be sponsored by existing users. They'd have added restrictions in place - only one/two/three/whatever comments allowed per day. No FPP's allowed for however long... the sponsoring member would be responsible for ensuring the newbie stick to the "rules" (such as they are ;), not be disruptive, etc etc...

At the end of the probationary period, a vote could be held. A panel of ten volunteer members (preferably with a couple of old we-don'-need-no-new-bluuuuud curmudgeons too, for fairness) could decide whether the newbie was "the right stuff".

That's all I've got, though. I'm sure it's full of holes...

Thanks for the opportunity to speak my piece :)

Cheers,
CoriolisDave.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:09:32 -0800

My two cents:

I'm a lurker; I discovered Metafilter this past May, and it has become a daily read for me. I would love to have the opportunity to sign up, and am rather chagrined that I didn't run across the site earlier.

That's all.

The Bone

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:10:00 -0800

Just so people understand what we're going through, us on the outside are
reduced to reading and commenting at Kottke.

We also are reduced to accidentally looking for the comment box. And then
realizing. And so many 0 comment threads could have had that one special
comment.

That said, I think memberships should be opened via a link from MetaTalk. If
we're reading MetaTalk, we're obsessed enough, right?

---
Donald Tetto

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:10:28 -0800

Hey Sarge, thanks for taking e-mails from non-members!
First, anybody who's not a member but would seriously like to become one
is obviously going to read the metatalk thread about opening things to
new members... so I assume the four (or so) responses so far have been
from people very serious about joining metafilter. which brings me to a
suggestion:
why not bury a thread in metatalk somewhere, where old members who no
longer want their account can simply post that fact, and their email
adress, and prospectives can contact them to take over? it would be
self-selective in that only people serious enough about metafilter to
read metatalk would find it, and it would save matt from doing any
additional work. i really don't plan on making thousands of posts a day,
and since i read metafilter anyway, i don't see it as being terrible on
the server(s).

tim.

By: PrinceValium

PrinceValium — Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:50:05 -0800

They have to read kottke!?! Won't somebody think of the children?

By: cup

cup — Sun, 09 Nov 2003 10:15:31 -0800

Thank you for your kind comment, costas, and for mentioning the diversity visa lottery. I wasn't aware such a program existed but I am familiar with the benefits of diversity:

While in university, I was the leader of a popular seminar. Like Metafilter, a lot of people wanted in but only a few could. The professor and I collected applications and held interviews. When the applications came in, the professor first took the student with the highest average and the one with the lowest. He then found one from the northernmost part of Japan and one from the southernmost. He then took one currently living closest to the university and one living farthest. If there were any students with unusual skills, awards or achievements, he set those aside as well. He smiled and said, "These students get in regardless of what happens during the interviews."

At the time, I didn't understand why but your kind comments reminded me of my professor's selection process and just how successfully it worked for us - there was never a dull moment in our seminar. Your idea about a diversity lottery sounds the best so far but I agree that implementation would be difficult.

Thank you for a very constructive and thought provoking comment, costas.

By: cup

cup — Sun, 09 Nov 2003 10:24:28 -0800

And thank you sgt. serenity for kindly offering those without an account a chance to be heard on this thread.

Your suggestion of burying a thread in metatalk somewhere, where old members who no longer want their account can simply post that fact, and their email address, and prospectives can contact them to take over is excellent because it allows us to address the issue of new members and unused accounts without having to inconvenience Matt or take any time out of his schedule.

By: cup

cup — Sun, 09 Nov 2003 10:30:41 -0800

My apologies to sgt.serenity and tim. I said 'your' suggestion, sgt.serenity, but on reading it a second time it looks like it was tim's suggestion. Either way it was an excellent suggestion and I thank everyone who provided ideas and constructive criticism. :)

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 05:55:58 -0800

Howdy.

I was planning to be all cool and creative and prove that I'm as intelligent
and argumentative as the next mefite, but suffice to say I need more coffee
for that. Also, I'm bad at poetry and can't afford bribes. And also also,
I suck at spamming and only had the courage to send one pleading email to
Matt. And lastly also, I'd feel like a performing seal, you know, with the
beach ball on the nose and fat people with dripping ice creams standing
around and gawping at me. Which is not to say that metafilter is fat,
although yes, it *does* look fat in *that*.

My point being that much as I would personally love to have the option of
adding my (occasionally) useful input to a discussion, I doubt I would have
the mad skills required to compete with thousands of others. (Are there
really thousands?) But seeing as how I'm in New Zealand and therefore first
in the timezones, I feel Matt should offer a first-in, first-servered
joining period. Yeah.

But otherwise, I loved ed's cryptic puzzle, if you feel like letting him
know.

I also like monkeys.

--tracicle

By: rushmc

rushmc — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 06:16:00 -0800

See? This thread already has more life and sparkle in it than any 20 other threads just because of the contributions of the second-hand new blood!

By: quonsar

quonsar — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 07:19:28 -0800

Hi, just another lurker weighing in.

I fear I must refrain from habituating this splendid little conclave as God Himself appeared before my field of vision in the form of a Burning Bush (no pun intended) and beseeched my immortal soul lest I become like you. However I must add that the wry, tendon-yanking political shoutdowns, mixed with generous dollops of Yahoo/CNN/MSNBC sauce produces an emetic reaction unparalleled in it's purgative intensity. It makes me feel so pretty.

Fervently wishing you expire with all rapidity (except quonsar),

Mr. Mxptlk

By: orange swan

orange swan — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:08:32 -0800

Quonsar, did you write that yourself? On your honour now...

By: rushmc

rushmc — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:43:00 -0800

Metafilter: Lest I become like you.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:32:56 -0800

let the eagle soar !

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:18:32 -0800

Hi and thanks for the chance to let the lurkers have
their say. Actually, that was rather a clever idea you
had, asking people to email you and plead their case.

so...
I've been lurking for a couple of years now. Emailed
mathowie. The usual. But he's busy. I understand. What
i need to say here is something incredibly clever and
eye-catching so that you'll go to the trouble of
copying and pasting it into the Metatalk thread.

Something clever will come after i hit send, i know
it.

One thing people say about me is that i don't say
much, but what i do say is thought-out and clever.
Another thing people say about me is "Who's that?"

Anyway, i promise to be nice, or at least
thought-provoking. Thanks.

-meatparticles...........and now somebody else...

I have been reading both Metafilter and Metatalk for ages, but the signups have always been closed. That “New Member” link taunts me.

Aside from the blue, I read the Mefi 1, 2, 3 years ago every day. And I never miss Metatalk. It’s the only reality show I watch.

I hope you seriously consider opening new memberships. But just in case they’re forever closed, do you think Matt would make Mefi Lurker t-shirts if I asked nicely?

Jennie

By: amberglow

amberglow — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:40:48 -0800

You rock sgt! I've also gotten emails from waiting lurkers, about ed's puzzle thing, and some other threads. : >

And where's matt in all this? He already mentioned he would let in 10-15 people daily, but said "one of these days."

By: amberglow

amberglow — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:49:39 -0800

oop--i just saw the other thread--he has no time : < br> (i just got back from vacation, but left my brain there)

By: amberglow

amberglow — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:50:08 -0800

see?

By: orange swan

orange swan — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:02:13 -0800

I bet those MeFi Lurker t-shirts could be a money maker. And a good way to gauge just how many there are. You know those pink tablets your dentist/orthodontist gave you so you could find out how much plaque you missed when you brushed your teeth? Kind of like that. Only not really.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:13:43 -0800

i feel so pretty.

By: yhbc

yhbc — Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:24:31 -0800

Nobody emails me :(

Oh yeah, maybe that's because the addresses in our profiles aren't visible to folks at large (forgot that point). I'm in a helpful mood too. I have an email account at verizon.net, if that helps any chatty lurkers figure out what my email address might be.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:23:54 -0800

Hi Sgt.,

Long time lurker here, and sibling to a current Mefi member. Thanks for giving us outsiders a way to post. Just wanted to make my presence known as one of the hordes at the gate. I follow the drama quite regularly, know that quonsar is off his nut, 111 is in need of serious therapy, and I really miss the pancake bunny. I haven't bothered to email Matt since I read MeTa regularly and feel despondent that membership will ever be open again. But if it is, you'll see me first in line.

Oh yeah, and a pony.

This email, it vibrates?

Sooooz

even her brother wont let her into mefi ! who is it anyway ?
what the hell is wrong with you ! let the woman do a carlos quevedo once in a while !

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:25:04 -0800

Hi Sarge

Another MeFi lurker weighing in. I'm really only interested in
having the occasional say, in particular where I feel that my area of
"expertise" (I joke, but 3 degrees later it's less funny) is being
slighted or misrepresented. For example -- one sin of omission from
a person who has languages and a hat, another flat-out error by a
very prominent European whose name resembles that of a Soviet-era
fighter plane, and an entire thread which shall not be named that
demonstrated an invincible ignorance of its subject. (O shock, o
horror!) Otherwise, I am quite content for the whole circus to roll
on as it does, world, time, and Mathowie permitting.

Best,

Wolof

oh aye , it's good to see you amber !

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:27:09 -0800

Sooooz: I can't get you in, but I can offer you a new pancake bunny!

Wolof: Please e-mail me (hat at languagehat.com) about my sin of omission and I'll be glad to correct it; I hate misleading people.

Sarge, you're a true voice of the oppressed multitudes!

By: theora55

theora55 — Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:06:57 -0800

MetaFilter: the only reality show I watch.

By: mkultra

mkultra — Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:50:50 -0800

I'd be seriously opposed to any kind of competition, but I'd get behind a sponsorship model. Follow the slash premise- after posting a certain (high) number of posts/comments, you get a "point". You can spend this "point" to sign a new user up. Points would expire after a certain amount of time.

By: yhbc

yhbc — Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:14:12 -0800

Two! I got Two!

I already sent an email to the Sarge, but since you seemed so lonely I
thought I'd act as your unofficial stalker for the evening. Everyone
needs a stalker to feel special, I think.

If you like, I'll also attempt to track down your RL address, credit
card number and mother's maiden name, but I'm pretty hopeless at that
sort of thing. In other words, don't worry about the safety of your
bunny.

I wonder who else needs a cheery wake-up email...

--tracicle

- and -

Thanks for the opportunity to share my Metafilter experience as a non-user
lurker.

Why do I read Metafilter? Easy, it is consistently the best resource I have
found for thought provoking web links, inane commentary, and all around life
experiences. Most of all, it is the community that keeps me coming back
hour after hour, day after day. I shout at my computer when
Steve_at_Linnwood and fold_and_mutilate present their respective thoughts, I
waste an afternoon with crunchland's games, I spend an entire sleepless
night trying to solve ed's puzzle, and I laugh my ass off at quonsar's
unique style of comments.

Fairly early in the lurker mode, I tried the "email Matt and hope he likes
me" routine. As time went on, I tried other methods. Today for instance, I
clicked obsessively on the new user button when I see the users count change
from 17169 to 17170. But most of all, I just wait and hope that new user
sign ups will come again, in whatever form.

Metafilter is Matt's site, and I therefore I must accept his timeframe and
final decision on new members. So if and when the door opens, I'll be in
line. But for those of you who wonder, know that there are those of us who
read everyday just waiting for our turn to be a part of the community.

Oh and why do I read MetaTalk? It's easy...I come to Metafilter for the
links, and I stay in MetaTalk for the smackdowns.

Thanks, yhbc (and sgt. serenity) for giving us a voice until we can get our
own.

-Scott in Portland

I love this! It's total instant gratification, of the "You read me! You read me! You really, really read me!" variety! Or, as I said to tracicle:

Ha! Gee, thanks. I think the Sarge's little social experiment has
already had one positive effect - it's reminded at least some of the MeFi
regulars that there ARE other people who are reading what we prattle on
about. Hopefully, it'll have the other positive effect too, and we'll start
seeing some new folks let in.

Thanks for reading, and writing.

yhbc

Really - thanks, sgt. And Matt - when you're ready.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:42:30 -0800

it's reminded at least some of the MeFi regulars that there ARE other people who are reading what we prattle on about

*looks around nervously, feels presence of thousands of lurking eyes, pulls hat down low*

Actually, all the people quoted in this thread sound like they'd make excellent additions to the menagerie.

By: taz

taz — Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:54:53 -0800

It's true. We have the coolest lurkers.

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:20:21 -0800

I bet there are at least six people who don't post that think I'm sort of ok. That's what keeps me going.

By: Vidiot

Vidiot — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:59:42 -0800

I like CoriolisDave's and mkultra's points. I'd love to have some sort of system where members could vouch for people to get them onboard. I know at least three people who would make wonderful members and who want to join, but can't. I feel sorry for them...especially when I want to know what their take on a particular topic is.

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:19:41 -0800

Actually, all the people quoted in this thread sound like they'd make excellent additions to the menagerie.

Yeah, right. They sound like a bunch of overripe melons, pregnant with the foul smell of rotten fruit, waiting to birth their fluids all over us in a sick reliving of that horrific exodus. You hear me, lurkers? You're all a bunch of fucking no-good wankers. AND YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME!

sigh.

By: taz

taz — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 01:36:03 -0800

(just in case anybody ever wondered "What does God really think of me?")

By: yhbc

yhbc — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 05:11:12 -0800

Time to open up the ol' mailbag and see what we've got this morning!

Is there any possibility of seeing MeFi expanded to a new group of huddled masses yearning to sound clever? Is there any value to weighing in on an already-overcrowded thread by saying "Me too!"? Will this lurker experience a shudder and a thrill by contributing, in his own small way, if only for the one time, to a conversation on MeTa? These are just some of the burning questions we have on the table, and I, for one, hope the answer to all three is yes.

I found out about MeFi about 8 months ago, and it quickly became an obsessive must-read for me. I spent a couple of months getting up to speed-- learning how to navigate & search the site, finding out what MeTa was for, getting a feel for the tenor and tone of the FPPs, figuring out who this Matt fella was, and all that-- before I ever tried to sign up. So it's only been about 5 months that I've known that I couldn't get in. And until now, I haven't done a thing about it. Even now I'm not doing much about it; I'm just saying hello, and adding my voice to the masses on the outside. Well... that, and by sending off this email, I'm trying to quell the occasional frustration felt when I've got a *perfect* response or clarification of a point that just needs to make it onto a blue page, and I click "New User," holding my breath, trying to make deals with god & the devil, and hoping to see-- for once, just once-- some sort of registration page, but seeing nothing. Always nothing.

Why do I read MeFi, as a lurker? Because it's so much damn fun (you know that) even for those who can't contribute . Why do I read MeTa, as a lurker? Well, because I want to make sure that, *if* I make it in someday, I know what to do so that my first FPP post isn't greeted with a "what. the. fuck. matt?" Plus, it's so much damn fun. And because, well, sometimes I hate my dissertation and I need distractions, but enough about me.

No, wait, that's not enough about me-- I'm trying to convince all of you that those of us on the outside are wonderful, charming folks who won't bore you to tears with our nonsense, senseless bickering, and indulgent tomfoolery. Hopefully this e-mail gets us a little bit of the way there, because I don't know what else to tell you, other than that I had some really great fake church signs to share with you last week, and that if the MeFi CD swap is still going on by the time I make it to the big time (if I make it), I produce fancy mixed compilations with tender loving care-- that's my promise to you. Well, that, along with the promise of sensible bickering and only the most necessary bits of tomfoolery.

In any case, yhbc, thanks so much for opening your inbox for a note from a lurker.

Best,
Tim

Tim (as do many others) sounds a lot like me, circa February, 2002. The problem, still, is how to accomodate what I think is everyones desire to let some of these lurkers in, while still retaining some control over the other lurkers that we know are also out there, with less wholesome and helpful desires. Perhaps some sort of voucher system would be the answer.

By: taz

taz — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 05:50:53 -0800

but... how do we vouch for people we don't know; and if we vouch only for people we do know, it remains a closed community, just closed in a different way.

Here's an idea completely off the top of my head (manufactured this very instant as I was typing above comment): What if one of the ace programmers here created a mefi clone site specifically as a try-out area, and alongside this a mefi-members-only poll. If Matt said he could handle X number of pre-screened new members per month (if, I said if) then members could vote monthly and the top X number of people would get memberships. We would be voting not just on the strength of individual posts, but also commenting quality, etc., demonstrated over a period of time.

I can see how this isn't as good, in many ways, as simply having a sign-up window, but I think that one of the huge headaches for Matt is dealing with the off-the-wall stuff that comes from open sign-ups. And, who knows? - Maybe the newbie wannabe site would knock our socks off, and show us how things should really be done (I wouldn't be shocked). This solution, however, calls for a person or a group of administrators willing to put up with all the stuff that makes it such a time-drain for Matt - 24/7 babysitting, in other words...

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 06:45:25 -0800

I know several of us have multiple accounts. During the last period of sign-ups, I selfishly registered an extra account, and now I regret taking the spot from someone else. I, for one, am willing to give up the account to someone who is not currently a member. Perhaps there are others that could do the same. Email me at yahoo.

By: orange swan

orange swan — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:12:47 -0800

Lurkers, you can email me too at metaorangeswan@hotmail.com. Maybe if I too realize that people are reading this site, I'll stop embarrassing myself so often:-)

Plus, you lurkers seem to be such literate types, and I like nice mail.

By: matteo

matteo — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:15:13 -0800

I, for one, am willing to give up the account to someone who is not currently a member.

I'm selling my (only, by the way) account, too.
early user number (3930),
good contribution index,
I'd rate it mint -

e-mail your offer

PayPal accepted

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:26:58 -0800

I'm selling my (only, by the way) account, too.

I should note for those interested, I am not selling my extra account, I'm giving it away. Selling it, I'm afraid, would only compound my guilt.

By: orange swan

orange swan — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:33:17 -0800

Matteo, part of me really hopes that when Matt sees your advertisement, he just deletes your account.

By: taz

taz — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:44:20 -0800

ah... but he's not serious, orange swan. He hasn't given an email address. Matteo gets grouchy, but he'd never sell his MeFi soul (yes, matteo?).

By: orange swan

orange swan — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:14:42 -0800

He hasn't given an email address.

True, taz. Forgot to take that into account. Interesting concept, this turning over one's MeFi personae to someone else... Imagine the surreal moments - konolia suddenly becomes a rabid, rude atheist; Miguel starts saying things like "Fuck you, loser"; thomcatspike writes in complete, punctuated sentences; WolfDaddy makes lascivious comments about women...

By: taz

taz — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:17:33 -0800

... actually, that last one I could imagine....

By: languagehat

languagehat — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:28:07 -0800

I too think matteo wasn't serious, but for the record, I think it would be a really, really bad idea for previously used memberships to change hands (though I don't see anything wrong with extra, unused accounts being given to someone deserving, as monju offers). Furthermore, I think if memberships are offered for sale on Ebay, they should be cancelled. Fortunately, if I remember correctly Matt feels similarly, so I don't think we'll be seeing a rash of orange swan's surreal moments.

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:34:55 -0800

For the record, I agree with languagehat. The account I'm offering up has 3 comments, all very neutral, and no posts. I would not be offering the account if it had any real history tied to it, and I am certainly not going to take any money for it. Selling an account seems remarkably like domain squatting, and I would think that the loyal readers of MeFi recognize that profiting from that kind of behavior is disfavored, to put it mildly.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:38:45 -0800

Imagine the surreal moments - konolia suddenly becomes a rabid, rude atheist; Miguel starts saying things like "Fuck you, loser"...
How funny would it be if one day a year, we had an "opposite" day? FilterMeta? Bizarro Meta? April Fool's maybe? I wonder if we could do it...

By: taz

taz — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:49:16 -0800

I did have a fantasy about something like that, amberglow - except in my fantasy, our user names were all shuffled and we each ended up with somebody else's name, but kept posting as we would normally do, then waited to see how long it would take to sort everybody out. Miguel and quonsar would be easy to identify, and probably thomcatspike and clavdivs, but after that it would become pretty interesting...

By: orange swan

orange swan — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:11:30 -0800

And another lurker heard from:

Howdy,

As a dedicated,non-registered lurker, I've been reading the MetaTalk* thread
about new members for a couple of days now with extremely mixed feelings about
it all. There's no denying that I've been longing for a MeFi membership for
quite a while (I found the site after sign-ups were closed) and that I
occasionally find myself clicking on the New User button "just in case". I
find a lot of value in the MeFi community. I have read links and comments that
made me laugh and cry and rage about many times. I admire many of you more than
I can say, just as I wish I could reach out smack you guys sometimes too. I've
surfed a lot over the past several years and I believe that Matt has fostered
something truly unique and worthwhile and I hope you really know that.

However, the idea of a big popularity contest and/or suck up fest to get in is
abhorrent to me. It's probably sour grapes, but I don't see how a contest that
requires a "pick me! pick me!" attitude is going to reflect anyone's real
nature. As much as I'd love to be part of the community, I honestly don't think
I'm willing to be a pledge for you guys. I want to participate in discussion
and share ideas--not be part of a clique or have to prove that I'm "good
enough". For what it's worth, the two suggestions I like best so far are the
link submission area (mentioned by Matt) and the tried and true limited number
per day/week idea. I've resorted to trackback to squeeze my ideas and opinions
through in the past and I would relish the opportunity to do that by submitting
links as well.

Thanks for listening. I really appreciate it.

~Kimberly

*btw, I can't see how anyone, lurker or not, wouldn't find MetaTalk
entertaining.

By: orange swan

orange swan — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:16:39 -0800

WolfDaddy makes lascivious comments about women...
posted by orange swan at 8:14 AM PST on November 12

... actually, that last one I could imagine....
posted by taz at 8:17 AM PST on November 12

Perhaps that should have been: WolfDaddy makes lascivious comments about women and complains about how he can't get laid.

The switcheroo would be fun, but I would probably limit it to about fifteen of our first string, distinctive posters. The rest of us would pass under the radar and end up sulking because no one knew the difference. It would be sort of like running into a ex-lover and not being remembered.

By: furiousthought

furiousthought — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:03:37 -0800

As much as I'd love to be part of the community, I honestly don't think I'm willing to be a pledge for you guys.

Oooooooh. Ouch. Damn! Most convincing retort ever.

I have to agree with languagehat that all of these people who are writing would make excellent members. I'd be glad to welcome each and every one of 'em.

By: taz

taz — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:38:01 -0800

so... if an open signup is out because it would take more time than Matt has available to deal with the wacky, and if any kind of tryout is out because it's demeaning, then that sort of leaves it to "vouching-for". I have a few good friends that I really could vouch for, but it's not likely that I would personally vouch for somebody on the strength of a persuasive email. If everyone just tags their friends, then yes, we get new members... but, not in a way I would really like to see it happen.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:16:01 -0800

I think we need to call up matt's boss and tell him to get him an assistant so he'll have more time, and can open up signups again : >

By: amberglow

amberglow — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:40:08 -0800

I got one! : >
...I figured I'd share my little thoughts with you on the ongoing New User debate:
I've been lurking for maybe six months — long enough to have made a short list of possible user names, in case I wake up one morning and the New User link leads to something other than disappointment.
It's already been said, and with more eloquence than I'll be able to muster, but creating Lurker vs. Lurker Deathmatches is only going to let in a certain kind of "look-at-me-I'm-really-clever-and-special-and-loud" types. Not to mention that it's demeaning in a kind of doggy-in-the-window-begging-for-attention kind of way. I know you guys want to be entertained, but c'mon...
Off the top of my head, I'd vote for a combination of the sponsorship and recycling plans: let people recommend a member or two (or choose to be a point person for people to write "why I wanna be a member" essays to, and then MetaVote on them); and pull a rake through the current membership and see who hasn't logged onto the system in some appropriately heinous amount of time (a year?) and, after due notice, get rid of those dead leaves.
Thanks for listening...
BewareMyWings (possible user name #13a)

His idea about culling the dead leaves has merit, I think.

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:59:49 -0800

I've said this before, but apparently nobody listens to me: culling the dead leaves--or recycling and replacing old parts of the car, as Friedman might like to put it--would amount to the same as just letting in new members up to a certain limit. As far as I know, if somebody doesn't log on to the site, his/her membership doesn't really put any strain onto the server.

Also, how weird would the archives look if you saw a comment, clicked on the name, and it took you to some entirely different member page than that of the commenter?

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:01:03 -0800

I also recommend that all the overripe melons do as the letter-writer above did and come up with a list of possible names, lest you find yourself with a lame one, as I did.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:06:11 -0800

I listened, TGC--I'm just hoping that psychologically matt might feel better if the total usercount didn't go up. And couldn't old comments be linked to the old username page, and the usernumber go to the new person? and your name's not so terrible, just a tad egotistic

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:15:16 -0800

Personally, I'd like to keep all the numbers. It grants the place a nice history--the when and the where of membership, if you will. I think the only problem Matt has is with new members is an inability to police the site if he lets a bunch in, but I might be wrong.

And my name isn't really egotistical, unless you read it that way. A "god complex" is just a psychology term, referring to someone who thinks themselves to be god, which has long falled into dissuse. If anything, it's really more of an ironic poke more than anything. That, or it evokes images of a large, ministry-of-truth-like structure.

I just don't think it's terribly original, or altogether interesting. It was the product of a teenage mind. I should have gone with something much more pretentious ;)

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:20:06 -0800

Falled? Hmm. I need to pay more attention.

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:29:15 -0800

I listen, and agree, TGC. There's no reason to actually delete old accounts, especially accounts with some history tied to them. What we really need, in addition to the total number of users, is a statistic which would indicate how many users have participated in the last, say, six months. That might give an indication of the active userbase without having to actually delete old accounts.

In terms of using and reading Metafilter, the crucial statistics, however, are the number of threads and comments. Both of those numbers seems to have leveled off since shortly after September 2001. As attrition marches inevitably on, those numbers will probably begin declining soon.

If we look at the number of threads as a function of the number of users, it seems to me that adding a thousand users would add only one extra thread per day. Of course that's not right, because the active, posting users are skewed towards the most recent entrants. Naturally, those who just joined would be most eager to post both thread and comments. In order to avoid a glut of posts by the new people, Matt could simply do as he has done in the past, open time-limited signups. As before, the number would be limited per day, and maybe only have signups open once per week.

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:34:24 -0800

Well, my account has been passed on. I was a little skeptical at first about giving my extra account to a random lurker, but I received a very thoughtful and challenging email about my motives for giving the account up. I knew my correspondent was the right person for the account, but it took some convincing as he initially declined. In any case, .kobayashi. now has his own identity, and no longer has to lurk in the shadows. I expect he will introduce himself shortly.

By: .kobayashi.

.kobayashi. — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:52:31 -0800

Yes, hello. I'm the new .kobayashi. and we-- Monju & I-- thought I would be nice if I'd said hello, not so much as a coming out party, but more as a courtesy following what's been an atypical way to get in the door. I'm only sort of new to MeTa, as I am the lurker that yhbc quotes here, in this very thread.

My acceptance of the account came from a day-long debate about the importance of preserving a vital community weighed against a larger democratic impulse. I'm not advocating-- and I don't think Monju is either-- the sort of transfer we've made as an ultimate (or even stop-gap) solution to the question of MeFi expansion; I'd argue that further democratization/expansion would be a good thing, and I almost refused Monju's offer, as I initially felt that it would be important to enter MeFi, if at all, as a member of the cohort of lurkers that have offered witty, impassioned posts, through others, here.

The eventual conclusion that Monju & I agreed upon, again after much debate, was based upon the idea that, even within a static number of registered accounts, more participation = more good, and furthermore, this good is a collective good. Monju would be doing good by donating the account, and I'd be doing good by acting as an active engaged member. After Monju pointed out to me that this transfer of account doesn't preclude any further movement towards greater expansion, I'd eventually agreed to adopt the account.

I'm thrilled, of course, to be a member after many many months of peering in. I'll be editing my user profile forthwith, and am looking forward to conversing with all of you in the near future.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:03:33 -0800

My god, thoughtful and literate at the same time—get him out of here! Er, I mean: welcome, .kobayashi.! Use your powers for good and not for evil!

By: amberglow

amberglow — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:04:06 -0800

welcome! maybe more people can come in this way, as there's no other--at least for now...anyone else have extra accounts they're not using and want to donate to the cause?

By: taz

taz — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:37:56 -0800

*places traditional MeFi lei of welcome around .kobayashi.'s neck*

greet .kobayashi.
fate stitched his name from a thread
great expectations

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:12:31 -0800

I don't like this guy, not one bit. I've got my eyes on him.

By: yhbc

yhbc — Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:16:11 -0800

Hee, hee, hee, hee-hee!
I know his real name!
He e-mailed me fir-irst!!!

PH33R ME, .KOBAYASHI.! I 0WNX0RS J00!!!

Erm, I mean - welcome aboard!

By: iconomy

iconomy — Thu, 13 Nov 2003 05:29:05 -0800

I know his real name, too. It's part of his email address ;)

Hi, .kobayashi. What would you have picked for your user name?

.kobayashi. ?

Wow, talk about coincidences!

That was a very nice thing to do, monju_bosatsu.

By: orange swan

orange swan — Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:26:57 -0800

Welcome to the MeFi bosom, .kobayashi. You now have the power to start complaining about crappy MeTa posts and the oppressive lefty clique, and to create new taglines. However, please do wait at least a week before the making your obligatory post about how much better MeFi used to be.

By: .kobayashi.

.kobayashi. — Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:10:19 -0800

Again, hello everyone. A couple quick responses, and then a quick point.

to iconomy: I have no idea what I would have picked for a user name, had I the opportunity. I'd made a mental list of options, but none really resonated. Given the opportunity, I'd likely have panicked and picked something I'd later regret, much like in TGC's anecdote. In any case, I'd never have picked .kobayashi. as I'd never read him before, but after having read the haiku link that taz posted, I'm quite happy with the name.

to orange swan: What? I'm supposed to kvetch about how things have gone downhill... since I've made it inside? I was under the impression that, for the first few weeks, all that was expected of me was to jump into a few random threads and mention how much everybody likes pancakes? Now this responsibility too? Oh, the pressure! ;)

to everyone else: Thanks for saying, or thinking, hello. Of course, I'm happy to be here, and I'm grateful to monju for the opportunity. But let's not hijack this post for a meet-and-greet. Remember, what we're looking for here is ~~the philosopher's stone~~, ~~the holy grail~~, ~~the lost city of gold~~, a creative way to fairly increase the breadth and depth of participation, through increasing the number of participants, without bothering Matt, who doesn't have time for new accounts. Are there any other clever folks out there with answers? If so, do speak up-- I don't want to be the last new participant of 2003!

By: orange swan

orange swan — Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:05:58 -0800

Another lurker weighs in:

Swan,

Assuming that you're still up for channeling voices from beyond, here are a few
thoughts on the Metafilter experience from the outside looking in.

I've been checking Metafilter on a regular basis for about a year and a half
now, finding
it consistently interesting/entertaining. The links themselves are almost
always worth
checking out (despite the endless carping to the contrary,) and point me in
'net-
directions that I would probably have never discovered on my own. Being able to
view
the opinions of others on the issues raised by these links is invaluable,
especially with
a community of well-spoken intelligent members (well, most of the time. I will
admit to
getting turned off when arguments devolve into name calling, but you guys manage
to
resist that better than most of the so called communities out there.) Hell, I
even find a
certain enjoyment in reading the endless griping over what does and does not
make a
good FPP, which I will admit probably qualifies me for the latest in mood
altering
medications. Last year, when new memberships were opened ever-so briefly, I
made
several attempts to join, but was amazed at how quickly a fifty person quota (or
however many it was, I forget) could fill up. I'm embrassed to say it, but on
several
occasions I sat with mouse poised above the "New Member" button waiting for the
opening time to arrive. Once I made it as far as filling out the application,
hit the last
button with a great feeling of relief, which was quickly replaced by profound
frustration
when I was informed that the quota had been filled while I thought of a
Hilarious name
for myself ("Hey! I know, 'TheFonz!' Everybody loves The Fonz!").

Since then, I have viewed the Metafilter discussions as a sort of
social-internet
experiment, evaluating what seems to work and what doesn't. It's been
fascinating. I
will admit, I do still scan Meta Talk for any thread refrencing the possibility
of reopening
memberships, and was quite pleased to see a couple pop over the last two weeks.

Now, as far as this thread is concerned, as a potential casual member, would I
want to
enter some sort of competition to gain entry rights? Or beg for an unused
account or
otherwise suck up to one of the current members? Uh... No. Any of those
possibilities
sound demeaning for all involved, and I question the class of member you will
attract.
The fact is, it is a rare discussion that inspires my wish to contribute. If I
joined, my
metafilter experience would probably not be a whole lot different than it is
now, with
one important exception: on those rare occasions that I felt the need to
contribute I
would be able to. Which, as nice as it would be for me, does not exactly
inspire a
death-match worthy passion.

However, should that little yellow button up there open up a new member form, I
wouldn't hesitate to join.

But I ain't holding my breah.

Krank

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:42:49 -0800

I was thinking about someone's (taz's, I believe) suggestion of a
mock-up site where metafilter wannabes could post and comment for
approval into the real mefi. I have a basic php-nuke website that looks
nothing like metafilter but has the same basic premise, which is so new
that no one really reads it.

I'm offering this as a QuasiMefi, if anyone is interested, where
regulars can check out what us lurkers have to offer. It's at
http://juju.net.nz/mofi (titled, appropriately, MonkeyFilter).

The only problem is that I'm in NZ and the site is hosted in NZ also,
which means I have limited bandwidth, and I'm not sure how many people
we'd expect to see. So I'll say it'll be up for as long as the server
can handle it, and if we run out of bandwidth I'll shut it down for a
while. It _should_ be okay, though.

So, yeah. If nothing else, this should indicate how much I wish I was a
mefite :)

--tracicle

By: taz

taz — Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:04:27 -0800

ooh. I like the idea of lurker activism. I think you guys should take tracicle up on the offer and get together at monkeyfilter to acquaint yourselves with each other and get the ball rolling. I promise you that I, for one, will be tuning in.

Just about everybody here, including Matt, would prefer something as simple as a signup window, but I think just about everybody can recognize what a timesink the site is for him in its present state, and how compounded that would be by unscreened signups. I think that basically what he would like to know is that members are coming in with good intentions, understanding the format and principles of the site, with the ability to contribute productively.

If I were in your shoes at this point (and I once was), I would definitely do the monkeyfilter. Plus, monkeyfilter? at juju.net.nz? Come on; what's not to love?

By: arto

arto — Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:50:02 -0800

Well, I for one now slightly resent having to call 9622.net something *other* than Monkeyfilter on my blogroll.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Fri, 14 Nov 2003 05:40:02 -0800

The whole idea of these lengthy competitions for new memberships doesn't sit
well with me, though. I doubt I would even bother because I'd just never
get picked. Personally, I think the best way to participate in an internet
community is to only comment when you have a fairly unique perspective, and
that's not enough flash and glitz for the necessary attention. It makes me
think of all the job interviews in my life I've totally blown. I'm terrible
at selling myself in situations like that - I have to take a shot of liquor
beforehand to put on the charm. I don't have a blog on my resume, or
glowing references from MeFi-ers. I did win the grammar bee in elementary
school, though.

anyway, thanks for reading. Very cool of you to do this.
-amy

By: languagehat

languagehat — Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:22:06 -0800

I did win the grammar bee in elementary
school, though.

Good enough for me. Let her in.

By: matteo

matteo — Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:04:41 -0800

Matteo gets grouchy, but he'd never sell his MeFi soul (yes, matteo?).

I only get grouchy with baaaaaaaaad, baaaaaaaaad people who deserve a spanking, taz.
not to mention, you know I have a weakness for you, I'd never snark you

but it's true I'd love to see this huge MeFi Identity Swap thing, say, for 24 hrs. great philosophical fun, Fichte's ichheit in motion.

just give me Miguel's password. or mathowie's -- you'll see

but I doubt anybody would actually pay to get my password. I mean, who would possibly like to be me?
I sure don't

and, thanks for voting me off the island for no reason at all, orange swan.
I'll take care of you as soon as I get mathowie's password. expect to have some of your butt feathers painfully plucked.
heh

By: taz

taz — Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:36:17 -0800

oh, I don't know, matteo... I might deserve a spanking. Sometimes. When I've been vewy, vewy bad.

By: cup

cup — Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:42:17 -0800

Hi amy and thank you for your kind comments through sgt.serenity's account.

Personally, I think the best way to participate in an internet community is to only comment when you have a fairly unique perspective, and that's not enough flash and glitz for the necessary attention.

As I said before, the person who posts one comment with unique perspective would (hopefully) get more votes than the person shouting "look at me!" would. That is the reason that I suggested the (obviously unpopular) idea that members with lower Mefi would have more points attached to each vote. I assumed that the people who have been here the longest would be better able to discern the difference between a truly good post/comment and one that is flash and glitz. On second thought, it does not seem very democratic and probably deserved all of the criticism it received. It was not my intention to offend users with higher Mefi numbers (of which I am one, BTW) and, if I did offend anyone, I apologize.

I doubt I would even bother because I'd just never get picked.

Well, based on the comments you made through sgt.serenity's e-mail box you would have earned at least two votes, from languagehat and me, and I am sure we would not be the only ones.

The whole idea of these lengthy competitions for new memberships doesn't sit well with me, though.

It was never intended to be a lengthy competition. That is why my original idea was to build a metafilter clone but with limited posts, limited comments and a database that would be deleted at the end of every month. I didn't want anyone to spend too much time reading or posting to it and I didn't want it taking up much space.

I am glad that Taz, tracicle and others took the core idea of building a Mefi clone as a place for Mefi lurkers to compete and ran with it. Hopefully it won't cause too much of a strain on tracicle's resources and I pray for their success.

P.S. Looking back at all of the comments in this thread, costas' idea of a diversity lottery seems better than competition because competition would reduce diversity and a community's strength lies in its diversity. Tim's idea of burying a thread in metatalk somewhere where old members who no longer want their account can simply post that fact is excellent because it costs Matt no time or resources. The best, however, is monju_bosatsu's kind deed of giving away a 'sock puppet' account because we gain a member without losing one, we don't have to bother Matt and this method has already succeeded in bringing a new and very promising member to our community!

By: matteo

matteo — Sat, 15 Nov 2003 03:14:07 -0800

*rolls newspaper very tightly. clutches trusty whip, cracks it through the air*

By: orange swan

orange swan — Sat, 15 Nov 2003 06:58:51 -0800

A MeFi switcheroo where someone gets to be Matt? Well, the experience could vary wildly depending on who it is.

Miguel would probably fling the membership gates wide open out of the goodness of his great heart.

Several members who are passionate about their various ideologies/special interests would have a Theme Day tailored to that passion.

Grumpy members would go about madly deleting members.

Quonsar would be a wild card - no telling what he'd do.

But yeah, I suspect it would all end in a souvenir orange feather pillow for User # 1 Of the Day, whoever it was.

By: orange swan

orange swan — Sat, 15 Nov 2003 07:00:48 -0800

And sorry Matteo - the idea of anyone selling his account just rubbed me the wrong way. I did not grasp that it was only a joke.

You can stay. I'll even mail you some feathers the next time I moult:-)

By: yhbc

yhbc — Sat, 15 Nov 2003 07:15:10 -0800

Before this thread scrolls off the page, here's one more cry from the outside (this is from a different Tim than the one we now know as .kobayashi., by the way):

hi, i already wrote to sgt.serenity once regarding metatalk's question
of new members, as i am not a member but would like to be.. perhaps you
wouldn't mind posting this last thought of mine somewhere? THANKS!

Okay, so I have some friends who like to have "guest chef" every sunday,
and one of their friends comes over and everybody helps them make the
recipe of the guest's choice. it's nice. it brings VARIETY to their
house once a week. so, in that vein, why not have a guest-fpp once a
week? A member of Metafilter could volunteer to take non-member's names,
and once a week choose one to create their own post.. the member would
then post it for them. this solves the following problems: no new member
sign-ups; increased diversity; better quality threads (if i'm given one
chance, i'm going to get it right); an exciting new feature that
everybody will look forward to; what could be a suitable application
process, if memberships are ever offered.

thanks again :)
tim