June 21, 2004

12:18 PM

Big ol' Iowa farmboy hands, keswick? I have a piece you can put them on, but it's not a timepiece...

Gay, straight, I don't care. This kind of stuff is just crude and out of place.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders to etiquette/policy at 12:18 PM (104 comments total)

Get over it, Flanders. The menfolk of MeFi say that kind of stuff to the female members all the time. Unless you plan on electing Matt to be the chairman of the PC police, I reckon it's probably a better policy for us to be grown-ups and handle our offenses ourselves.
posted by headspace at 12:21 PM on June 21, 2004

As things usually go around here, that barely rates 'mild'. Didn't get enough control for the freak last weekend, Flanders? ;-P
posted by mischief at 12:26 PM on June 21, 2004

Man, the bar for callouts is really getting lowered lately.
posted by soyjoy at 12:27 PM on June 21, 2004

at least he didn't call him an AlQaeda terrorist-in-training
posted by matteo at 12:33 PM on June 21, 2004

The menfolk of MeFi say that kind of stuff to the female members all the time.

They do? Show me where.

I tend to think everyone's a little too thin-skinned around here, but I don't recall anyone suggesting to a Mefi woman that she grab his dick and tug.
posted by jpoulos at 12:40 PM on June 21, 2004

headspace, what has offended you? (not hoping to show you wrong, more worried there's something odd happening that i've missed).
posted by andrew cooke at 12:41 PM on June 21, 2004

Bothered you, didn't bother me. Did it bother Keswick? We'll need a 2/3rds majority to make it official.

Metafilter: ALL YALLS MEFI BITCHES CAN GRAB MAH DICK AND TUG.
posted by Hildago at 12:42 PM on June 21, 2004

Well, now that you brought it up, there's a lot to be said for the tug action....
posted by jonmc at 12:43 PM on June 21, 2004

Actually, this points up a crucial difference between men and women. Women hate to be objectified and treated like a sex object. We men LOVE it. We can't get enough.
posted by jonmc at 12:45 PM on June 21, 2004

Provided that the comment doesn't spawn a bunch of escalating imitations, it was absolutely hilarious.
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:58 PM on June 21, 2004

That's the thing, Andrew, I wasn't offended. I gave back as good as I got, had a good time with it, and moved on. The random rumblings about MeFi being a boyzone aren't entirely unwarranted, but you know, locker room talk can go both ways. I could be over here in Meta shrieking that my virgin eyes have been offended, or I can give it back and continue on my merry way. Guess which one is more effective?

Check out the thread about Wonder Woman losing her virginity; we had it going on back and forth in that thread.
posted by headspace at 1:13 PM on June 21, 2004

That was pretty funny.

I think StupidSexyFlanders is feeling left out.
posted by keswick at 1:21 PM on June 21, 2004

The menfolk of MeFi say that kind of stuff to the female members all the time.

Show us an example, and if you do I would be very surprised. Not to say you said something without backing it up, that it would happen.
posted by Keyser Soze at 1:26 PM on June 21, 2004

Well I for one applaud stupidsexyFlander's virtuous and noble attempt to rid MeFi of this kind of FILTH!

Cover those table legs, mother - they're inflaming my ardour!
posted by Blue Stone at 1:26 PM on June 21, 2004

I applaud the way PigAlien phrased his comment but wish he had put some teath into it.
posted by DBAPaul at 1:31 PM on June 21, 2004

I have to admit to also being a wee bit titilated by the comment. Titilated, and then enraged.
posted by Quartermass at 1:34 PM on June 21, 2004

Time to reshuffle our community standards:

Men being sexually inappropriate with other men: edgy, hip, flamboyant, whip-smart, wickedly funny.

Men being sexually inappropriate with women: lecherous, "boyzone", oppressive, threatening, unforgiveable.

Got it.
posted by dhoyt at 1:39 PM on June 21, 2004

Didn't you hear, dhoyt? It's oh-so-cool to be gay or, if you MUST do women, metrosexual. It's the in-thing.

::pats dhoyt on the ass::

See? We're "bros" now.
posted by BlueTrain at 1:44 PM on June 21, 2004

sorry headspace, but i don't see anything comparable there. maybe it's been deleted? or is it the more general assumptions (would there be a thread about superman losing his virginity, for example)?

dhoyt - isn't it a minority/power thing? minority/without power makes joke about majority/with power being more acceptable then vice-versa?
posted by andrew cooke at 1:46 PM on June 21, 2004

Us poor men, being victimized by the women of MeFi. Some of the dudes posting here need to get over themselves. Why are people so quick to take it to metatalk?
posted by chunking express at 1:48 PM on June 21, 2004

I'm not saying I'm clenching my bible and murmuring all glassy eyed for the rapture here. And I'm not asking anybody to delete anything. Flirting is great, but this was crude and dumb, & seemed to be a notch below what you usually get around here. So I pointed it out. I'd hate to see the site devolve in this direction, some others don't mind. I'm not "offended," whatever that means. I just think it stupids up the site.

And everybody who said this is typical around here in a hetero context -- if you're going to call me homophobic, let's see the links.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 1:50 PM on June 21, 2004

dhoyt - isn't it a minority/power thing? minority/without power makes joke about majority/with power being more acceptable then vice-versa?

I think the better quesion is should it be so?
posted by jmd82 at 1:51 PM on June 21, 2004

Who says women don't have power? Sheeit, a woman wants something from me within reason, she gets it. Not in a sexual way, just the way I was raised. Gotta be careful not to piss them off either or there will be hell to pay.
posted by Keyser Soze at 1:58 PM on June 21, 2004

dhoyt:

you forgot

women being sexually inappropriate with men and/or other women: dosen't happen nearly enough.
posted by jonmc at 2:07 PM on June 21, 2004

MeFi is MeFi and Fark is Fark. Vive la difference.
posted by gimonca at 2:16 PM on June 21, 2004

This is ludicrous.
posted by kjh at 2:27 PM on June 21, 2004

See? We're "bros" now.

Clearly you haven't taken the metrosexual thing to heart, or you'd be loathe to use the word "bros". Also, patting another man on the ass is decidedly baseball, not at all metrosexual (unless you're Mike Piazza? *rimshot*).

I think the better quesion is should it be so

Sure, why not? If it's good natured and funny in an against-the-grain kind of way, then it's certainly not like the person is in danger of being oppressed.
posted by The God Complex at 2:29 PM on June 21, 2004

Yes, forgive me The God Complex. I've inadvertently combined "straight guys being close" with metrosexuality (the process in which men finally realize what women have known for years: that taking care of oneself is decidely human, as opposed to feminine).

But telling some guy (jokingly or not) that he wouldn't mind a decent handjob is definitely a mix of both worlds.

I never understood why taking care of one self was originally considered gay. If anyone can enlighten the community about the origin of that stereotype, I would be most grateful.
posted by BlueTrain at 2:43 PM on June 21, 2004

I'll be over to do your hair at eleven, BlueTrain.

*bats eyes*

Because the same characteristics were considered to be female qualities, would be my guess. Women worry about how they look before they go out, women are concerned with fashion, etc., and being in any way effeminate is bad (or at least historically was for a male).
posted by The God Complex at 2:50 PM on June 21, 2004

The menfolk of MeFi say that kind of stuff to the female members all the time.

Well, headspace....
Count me among those still waiting for links or proof of that statement, and also for an explanation as to exactly why it would justify men saying "that kind of stuff" to other men anyway. Those kinds of overtures are lame & trite regardless, especially coming from a total stranger, yes?

Us poor men, being victimized by the women of MeFi. Some of the dudes posting here need to get over themselves.

Perhaps some of the "dudes" are fed up with dubious suggestions of chauvinism (see above) and bristle at the idea that that some variations of it are more acceptable than others.
posted by dhoyt at 2:52 PM on June 21, 2004

So are we saying, then, that coffee jitters are the secret ingredient to a decent handjob? Or is that just a working hypothesis?

'Scuse me. I'm off to do some research. I'll be back in six and a half minutes.
posted by chicobangs at 2:53 PM on June 21, 2004

how much coffee can you drink in 6 minutes 15 seconds?

(for the record, i'm not accusing anyone of dubious charges of chauvinism - i was just curious to learn how i might inadvertantly have offended someone (it comes in useful)).
posted by andrew cooke at 3:24 PM on June 21, 2004

I don't recall any great number of sexual invitations from males towards females here and I am pretty sure I would notice if they were around. There is far more of this from males directed towards other males and I think jonmc is right on the money - women as a race prefer not to be considered as objects of overt sexual desire (in public anyway), while men see it as a badge of honour. That the invitation to comes from another man seems to mean little - if a guy thinks you are hot, then so must the chicks, right? I am sure there are lots of comments written by the menfolk here and then deleted, for fear of acting innapropriately towards our female brethren, which is the right and good way to behave.

Gotta be careful not to piss them off either or there will be hell to pay.
Good to see you have learned this at a young age, Keyser Soze. Much pain has been caused by men who don't learn that lesson early enough ;-)

Oh, stupidsexyflanders - this was a pretty tame piece of sexual innuendo and would have raised nary an eyebrow if you had not drawn attention to it. We are all more-or-less adults here, I think we can deal with it.


how much coffee can you drink in 6 minutes 15 seconds?
I thought maybe the coffee was 3 minutes walk from where he was sitting.
posted by dg at 3:26 PM on June 21, 2004

a 6 minute walk ; >
posted by amberglow at 3:35 PM on June 21, 2004

(the process in which men finally realize what women have known for years: that taking care of oneself is decidely human, as opposed to feminine).

Nah, it's actually just vain.


Us poor men, being victimized by the women of MeFi.

I don't think he's claiming victimization, just a double standard where sexually explicit comments by straight men are consiered piggish and sexist, but sexually explicit comments by women and gay men are merely witty and liberating.

And please don't hand me the line that it's because of a "history of oppression." That's like saying if someone grew up in poverty, it's OK that they steal your car.
posted by jonmc at 3:35 PM on June 21, 2004

It happens in threads about sex, it happens in threads about sex toys; it happens in threads about the latest intern who fucked whichever politician. It's said to women, and it's said about women, but what all you guys seem to be missing in your reflexive "OH MY GOD, WE ARE NOT LIKE THAT!" is that my point is, if you're gonna go in the locker room, you'd better expect locker room talk.

I dunno if Flanders was just horrified that it was a man on man comment this time or what, but this stuff happens *all the time*. It's meant to be *funny* and it usually *is*.

It's just like the... and now my brain is blinking out on the name kevinskomskold, maybe? but he commented on how amazing his wife was here, and it grew into a whole joke that everybody else wanted his wife. It's all objectification, it's all good-natured, and it's my opinion that Flanders got his Puritan knickers in a twist over something that is part of the regular culture here.

Just because the comment's about a guy from a guy this time doesn't make it an extraspecial "call it to the grey" occasion, unless we're going to ban all innuendo from MeFi, in which case, I will have to quit asking WolfDaddy if I can watch.
posted by headspace at 3:41 PM on June 21, 2004

well, jonmc, i might rather that income was redistributed through taxes, but yeah, that seems about right. what's your objection, exactly? that the rich people make the laws?
posted by andrew cooke at 3:48 PM on June 21, 2004

Its good to see women and gay men making sexually explicit comments after their long history of oppression.

-does anyone know where i can buy a new car ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:01 PM on June 21, 2004

a 6 minute walk ; >
Or 3 minutes there, 3 minutes back.
posted by dg at 4:05 PM on June 21, 2004

It happens in threads about sex, it happens in threads about sex toys; it happens in threads about the latest intern who fucked whichever politician.

Well, yeah. But it doesn't generally happen in threads about shortages in the watchmaking industry.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 4:10 PM on June 21, 2004

but that's what makes it so funny, Ishmael--it has to be totally unexpected for it to work.
posted by amberglow at 4:33 PM on June 21, 2004

It's all objectification, it's all good-natured, and it's my opinion that Flanders got his Puritan knickers in a twist over something that is part of the regular culture here.

Agreed. But if I said to a female mefite "I'd like to my big Iowa farmboy hands on you, baby," I'd probably get dragged into the grey, dont'cha think?

I'm not calling for regulation here, god knows. I'm a card-carrying male pig, but let's be honest, huh?

well, jonmc, i might rather that income was redistributed through taxes, but yeah, that seems about right. what's your objection, exactly?

Well, not to get into a side discussion, but since I work hard for my meager salary to pay for my car, I have something of a right not to have it taken from me. But if you wanna do you're part to "redistribute income" I know some guys skilled at hot-wiring I can send over to your place. Just gimme an address.
posted by jonmc at 4:42 PM on June 21, 2004

jonmc: I really don't think you would, unless you offended the person to whom you addressed it. And I think most people here would respond with a snap or a situationally similar innuendo of their own. That's generally how it's happened in the past, and I suspect the way it will happen in the future.

amberglow: Exactly! Surprise comedy = comedy gold!
posted by headspace at 4:44 PM on June 21, 2004

While I was amused, not offended; I do think people are correct in saying if this was a het remark, it would be in the grey faster than you can say "double standard."

That said, I think we all need to realize ultimately, they're just words, and they only harm or offend you if you let them.
posted by keswick at 4:46 PM on June 21, 2004

I'm homophobic (meaning - gay people scare me) and find the comment in question to be highly objectionable.
posted by Witty at 4:51 PM on June 21, 2004

jonmc: I really don't think you would, unless you offended the person to whom you addressed it.

Exactly my point, headspace.

In general, mefites are the type of people who are very sensitive to accusations of sexism or homophobia, thus if the complainaint was a woman or a gay person, their complaint is taken very seriously. A het male can be dismissed as a crybaby.

When it comes to sexual language I'm more or less offense-proof, so I say they're all crybabies, or at the very least, uptight and neurotic. I'm just saying, is all.

I'm homophobic (meaning - gay people scare me)

Why, you worried they're gonna break in and give you a makeover?
posted by jonmc at 4:54 PM on June 21, 2004

women being sexually inappropriate with men and/or other women: dosen't happen nearly enough. -- jonmc

So I'm confused: if I tell jon to come over here and fuck me already, will that defuse this whole situation or not? (Either way, I trust it will upset Witty.)
posted by scody at 5:02 PM on June 21, 2004

gay people scare me

well , its just fortunate you look like freddie mercury , isn't it ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:06 PM on June 21, 2004

Well, pips may get upset, but otherwise, I'd be flattered.
posted by jonmc at 5:06 PM on June 21, 2004

jonmc, sometimes I wonder if you'd appreciate the stereotype that I have of you: a psuedo-intellectual who portrays a stereotype (average joe) simply because he thinks he has it (the stereotype) all figured out.

Probably not, is my guess, which is why I don't really appreciate the condescending generalization that sensitivity toward potential sexism is a bad thing.

Part of the reason this site has so many "self-policers" is because many people here find a consensus of opinion that they couldn't otherwise find in real life, and they want to protect that consensus. Whether it's over-policing or not is arguable, but any hint of sexism should be challenged (that's my opinion).
posted by BlueTrain at 5:07 PM on June 21, 2004

Why, you worried they're gonna break in and give you a makeover?

Not particularly. I just had an opinion once about a "gay" issue and that's what someone told me.

(Either way, I trust it will upset Witty.)

Only because I didn't get an invite to webcast the little fray.
posted by Witty at 5:10 PM on June 21, 2004

Probably not, is my guess, which is why I don't really appreciate the condescending generalization that sensitivity toward potential sexism is a bad thing.

There's a difference between sensitivity and over-sensitivity, BlueTrain. And what I was trying to get across was the fact that because that sensitivity (on the part of straight white men being sensitive to accusations of prejudice, more than anything else) leads to some peoples offense being taken more seriously than others.

And you can hold whatever stereotype of me you like, you don't know me, so it's ultimately meaningless.
posted by jonmc at 5:13 PM on June 21, 2004

Who will hold wittys little fray in their giant farmhands ?

- tune in next week !
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:17 PM on June 21, 2004

Witty, it's a shame your profile doesn't contain an email. Mine does.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:37 PM on June 21, 2004

[e-mail]
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:42 PM on June 21, 2004

But if I said to a female mefite "I'd like to my big Iowa farmboy hands on you, baby," I'd probably get dragged into the grey, dont'cha think?

I don't think there's any doubt that this would result in a callout in the gray. Headspace is on crack. And while it is certainly true that the larger social context is important to the definitions of "sexism" and "racism", I don't see any good reason for maintaining this double standard here on MeFi.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:49 PM on June 21, 2004

[e-mail]
posted by dash_slot- at 5:49 PM on June 21, 2004

[e-mail]

EB, you may be taking this whole thing more seriously than I am. I just floating hypothetheticals to get peoples ideas on the general subject.

I pretty much thought the comment was harmless and funny, and would have regardless of the gender of the participants.
posted by jonmc at 5:54 PM on June 21, 2004

women being sexually inappropriate with men and/or other women: dosen't happen nearly enough. -- jonmc

So I'm confused: if I tell jon to come over here and fuck me already, will that defuse this whole situation or not? -- scody

How about if I tell scody to come over here for some sapphic lovin'? Will that defuse the situation?

Actually, I think that might frighten Witty too.
posted by bedhead at 5:56 PM on June 21, 2004

Also, patting another man on the ass is decidedly baseball, not at all metrosexual (unless you're Mike Piazza? *rimshot*).

I was fine with just the hand-job reference, but now that God Complex has brought up rimming, I'm offended. And horny.
posted by ChrisTN at 5:59 PM on June 21, 2004

[e-mail]
posted by dash_slot- at 6:02 PM on June 21, 2004

I'll fuck all you boys senseless in record time without a watch. They don't call me "Messalina" for nuttin'. Well, maybe they do.

Now that, if I had said it in the thread, would have been totally inappropriate.
posted by WolfDaddy at 6:02 PM on June 21, 2004

*gulps*

*fans self with palmfrond, wipes brow*
posted by jonmc at 6:07 PM on June 21, 2004

But if I said to a female mefite "I'd like to my big Iowa farmboy hands on you, baby," I'd probably get dragged into the grey, dont'cha think?
Absolutely. Within minutes, if not seconds. This particular (and no doubt unintentional) double-standard is just one of the quirks that makes MeFi what it is. While it is a little too close to being PC for my comfort, it is also somewhat chivalrous in a strange kind of way, so that makes it OK. For me, anyway.

WolfDaddy, you would have to catch me first.
posted by dg at 6:33 PM on June 21, 2004

"How about if I tell scody to come over here for some sapphic lovin'? Will that defuse the situation?"

Only if you videotaped it and distributed copies.

/betnobodysawthatcoming
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:42 PM on June 21, 2004

But WolfDaddy, can I watch?
posted by headspace at 7:23 PM on June 21, 2004

I would like to kill you all and fuck your rotting corpses.
posted by bargle at 7:25 PM on June 21, 2004

5 dollars a head, space.
posted by WolfDaddy at 7:27 PM on June 21, 2004

now that's metatalk-worthy!

well-done, bargle (as in "make mine...."?)
posted by amberglow at 7:28 PM on June 21, 2004

Necrophiliacs are people too! No longer shall bargle and I be derided by the ..."breathers"...

Rigor mortis makes me hard.
posted by Jimbob at 7:41 PM on June 21, 2004

meow
posted by bargle at 7:50 PM on June 21, 2004

better yet...

oh, and these links are not remotely safe for work.
posted by bargle at 7:53 PM on June 21, 2004

If someone made a joke about someone being a "nigger" in the blue it would end up here in minutes, as well, whereas a joke about someone being a "cracker" would likely be met with snickers (except my flanders, perhaps). The reason? Social context. Jokes targeted at the majority are funnier because the majority isn't in danger of being oppressed; rather, they're in danger of oppressing others. Of course it's a double standard, but given historical context it's an understandable one.

I thought it was hilarious, myself.
posted by The God Complex at 7:59 PM on June 21, 2004

Everyone's flirting with WolfDaddy. Hmmm.

I have had a few sexual-type comments made to me and didn't get offended, but then I also make such comments, so I guess I just see it as part of the give and take. There is a line dividing inappropriate from fine, but I think I'd put the line at "too creepily graphic" or "any joke about rape". So I think this farmer hands comment was within bounds, if only just.
posted by orange swan at 8:48 PM on June 21, 2004

So, if I understand correctly, some people are upset they are the butt of some lame sexual innuendo, because if they made the same lame remarks to a women this would be considered sexist. Dear God, life just isn't fair.
posted by chunking express at 8:53 PM on June 21, 2004

So, if I understand correctly, some people are upset they are the butt of some lame sexual innuendo, because if they made the same lame remarks to a women this would be considered sexist. Dear God, life just isn't fair.

No, you don't understand correctly. As far as I can tell, no one is "upset." Flanders, who made the post, thought the remarks were "crude". keswick, the target of the joke, was "amused".

No one is complaining that life is unfair. In fact, you are the first person to use the word "fair" or "unfair" in this thread.

dhoyt and jonmc noted that a double standard exists. You, on the other hand, have pissed and moaned twice about a supposition that resides entirely in your imagination.
posted by trharlan at 9:42 PM on June 21, 2004

And at some point, someone had to introduce the topic of double standards for the first time- which are "unfair" most of the time as it is.
posted by jmd82 at 9:48 PM on June 21, 2004

*cuddles up to bedhead, squints at digital camera* Hey, hon', do you know how this crazy thing works? *shrugs, tosses bra over lampshade*
posted by scody at 10:08 PM on June 21, 2004

trharlan thanks for clearing that all up. but to be clear, i am pissing and moaning about stupid metatalk threads in general.
posted by chunking express at 10:23 PM on June 21, 2004

Everyone's flirting with WolfDaddy. Hmmm.

When he put me down as a "crush" in the contact lists I started blushing uncontrollably, then I said "oh my, I do declare--I think I've got the vapours!"

Then my girlfriend walked in and I closed the browser real quick like.
posted by The God Complex at 10:27 PM on June 21, 2004

Shush, TGC. I'm trying to figure out what scody and bedhead are doing. Whatever it is, I hope it's not making me metrosexual. My boyfriend would kill me.
posted by WolfDaddy at 10:57 PM on June 21, 2004

dash_slot- - An email address has been added to my profile. I eagerly await your message!
posted by Witty at 1:00 AM on June 22, 2004

Witty, I notice your email address is mwitty111. You're not 111's only slightly less trollish and homophobic twin, are you?
posted by stonerose at 6:17 AM on June 22, 2004

Jokes targeted at the majority are funnier because the majority isn't in danger of being oppressed; rather, they're in danger of oppressing others.

Eh. I dunno, that's like saying since people have always been assholes to you, you now have the exclusive right to be an asshole. Which is just stupid and counterproductive.

The only accepted role for a white heterosexual male in many enviornments is these days is to sit around looking guilty and accept everything any self-appointed spokesman for women, gays or any other oppressed group says as gospel. This is the exact opposite of true critical thinking and I think we all know it.

Not that I'm arguing for an end to jokes about men or white people or whatever. I just think that (except for threats and blatant hatred) either everyones fair game or nobody is.

Now can we get back to the MeFemmes making lewd suggestions at me, please?
posted by jonmc at 6:26 AM on June 22, 2004

I will also add that it's usually not women, gays, and other minorities doing the complaining and scolding around here but other white, heterosexual males. Why this is I'm not entirely sure but I think it's interesting.
posted by jonmc at 6:35 AM on June 22, 2004

Jokes targeted at the majority are funnier

A white businessman walks into a bar. He orders a Tom Collins. And then several more. He drives home, somewhat drunk, to his suburban home where his wife is already asleep. The passion left their marriage years ago.

Hmm . . . upon reflection, I disagree.
posted by yerfatma at 7:23 AM on June 22, 2004

*snort*

Nice, yerfmata. Reminded me of this.
posted by dhoyt at 8:21 AM on June 22, 2004

Actually, this points up a crucial difference between men and women. Women hate to be objectified and treated like a sex object. We men LOVE it. We can't get enough.

a)people generally want what they haven't got; if you're constantly the target of this kind of sexual objectification, it becomes much less flattering and interesting than if it's just an occasional thing.

b)there's a more serious angle too - if a woman says to a man "you're mine" it seems cute and sweet, because in general she's much smaller and less threatening and if he doesn't want to "be hers" he can just leave. If a man says the same to a woman - forget who's a "good" person etc, I'm just talking about fundamental instinctive responses - there is an element of real danger involved: if he really wanted that to be the case, he has a physical advantage that could actually bring it about. Even in normal consensual hetero sex, most men can pin a woman down if he's on top, while if she's on top, she tends to "ride" him rather than pin him.

So sure, women want to be easy going and just play around but the fact is there is often an underlying thread of fear that is simply not there at all for the guys. No one wants to be fearful and I think women in general feel as if it's their fault if they ever feel it but I think to really get over it you have to accept why you might have felt it to start with.

But if I said to a female mefite "I'd like to my big Iowa farmboy hands on you, baby," I'd probably get dragged into the grey, dont'cha think?

But this is a different proposition - the joke here was, I'd like to let you put your big farmboy hands on me. So to make the equivalent joke to a woman, you'd have to propose she put her big iowa farmgirl hands on you, not the reverse (again, the power dynamics of who has big sturdy hands and who is being felt up vs. doing the feeling up make a difference in whether there's an underlying threat or whether it's just fun).
posted by mdn at 8:43 AM on June 22, 2004

Well, first of all, MeFi is a virtual enviornment so the "physical advantage" is irrelevant in this context.

Plus it still puts women in the role of being weak beings who need special protection (even in a text-only virtual realm, which I can only call backward thinking.

And here's another what if? I'm a 6' 1" 160lb. male. I've been hit on (unsolicited) by gay men who were larger and heavier than me. Harrassment? Threat? The physical advantage is there. I was just basically flattered.

Besides, do we really want to live in some Emily Post meets Andrea Dworkin/Antioch College world where conversations go like this:

"Hello Breasted American, I find you aesthetically pleasing and somewhat arousing, may I extend myself into your personal space?...No, I'm sorry, forgive me for being a white male oppressor."

I'm exaggerating for effect, but that's where we're headed.

And I maintain that even if our hypothetical male mefite said something like "You could have your way with me anytime, honey," or "I'd be happy to be your boy-toy," thus ceding control to the female, there'd still be those who'd consider him sexist and probably drag his ass into MeTa.

So anyway you cut it, it's still a double standard.
posted by jonmc at 9:06 AM on June 22, 2004

Gay, straight, I don't care. This kind of stuff is just crude and out of place.

I agree.

The menfolk of MeFi say that kind of stuff to the female members all the time.

As numerous others have pointed out, that's a specious claim. It wouldn't be tolerated, nor should it.
posted by rushmc at 9:58 AM on June 22, 2004

Huge inbred corn-shucker hands, thick hydraulic fingers crushing around the pitchfork handle, straining, twisting, grinding...going somewhere, city boy?
posted by Opus Dark at 10:19 AM on June 22, 2004

Opus Dark, isn't that a Flannery O'Connor quote?
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 10:57 AM on June 22, 2004

So anyway you cut it, it's still a double standard.
Yes, it is. Always has been and probably always will be. It is the same kind of double standard that makes men who are sexually promiscuous studs and women who act the same way sluts. But you are right, the double standard (perhaps) shouldn't exist. So why does it? Is it simply a hangover from days when men were men and women were nervous, or is it something that is more hard-wired into us?

Despite the fact that it is nowadays considered wrong to think that men and women are fundamentally different, I suspect that this double standard with regard to flirting (which, at its most base level is simply people sending out signals to see if someone is a potential mate while still leaving room for a graceful exit) is something that is inbuilt into the human psyche. Maybe, in a few generations, this will disappear but, until then, us older model humans are pretty much stuck with who and what we are.

Sometimes double standards are neither right nor wrong, they just are.
posted by dg at 3:12 PM on June 22, 2004

i like radishes , anyone else here like radishes ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:38 PM on June 22, 2004

I'd like to point out that I made a farmboy hands comment to konolia, and absolutely nothing happened.

I'm quite disappointed. I thought the world might end or something.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:52 PM on June 22, 2004

The only accepted role for a white heterosexual male in many enviornments is these days is to sit around looking guilty and accept everything any self-appointed spokesman for women, gays or any other oppressed group says as gospel.

I can't understand that this goes unchallenged. In a country where many folks can get the sack for wearing the wrong tie to work, why would any manager cede effective control to a PC tyranny.

Aren't you in the land of the free?

I call shenanigans.
I've always wanted to say that. I don't care if it's irrelevant, inappropriate or redundant.
posted by dash_slot- at 6:11 PM on June 22, 2004

I like radishes, too. Shenanigans, also.
posted by dg at 6:22 PM on June 22, 2004

Ooo, I'll get my broom!
posted by WolfDaddy at 6:33 PM on June 22, 2004

Take it easy with that broom, Wolfie! Lots of people around here are way too clenched and you'll need to go gentle at first.

[wrings big ol' Ontario farmgirl hands]
posted by orange swan at 8:44 PM on June 22, 2004

S'okay orange swan, I'm an -- dare I say it? -- old hand at this stuff.

100!
posted by WolfDaddy at 8:53 PM on June 22, 2004

"I'd be happy to be your boy-toy,"

Heh. Witty likes to call me his boytoy. Maybe I should feel threatened, but like jonmc, I really just felt flattered.
posted by soyjoy at 9:16 PM on June 22, 2004

on preview, seeing that this is all ending in fun I feel silly putting up the almost academic sounding arguments I made, but I'll just preface by asking all y'all farmhands to take it easy on me...

Well, first of all, MeFi is a virtual enviornment so the "physical advantage" is irrelevant in this context.

if we're making jokes about sexual interactions with one another, our physical manifestations are obviously not completely irrelevant - they may be falsely represented etc, but their connotations are still pertinent.

Plus it still puts women in the role of being weak beings who need special protection (even in a text-only virtual realm, which I can only call backward thinking.

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't be allowed make comments about women as they do about men but just that there may be some basic physical reasons why women tend to be more sensitive to sexual objectification than men are.

And here's another what if? I'm a 6' 1" 160lb. male. I've been hit on (unsolicited) by gay men who were larger and heavier than me. Harrassment? Threat? The physical advantage is there. I was just basically flattered.

a)the physical advantage is much less pronounced;
b)it is unlikely you or any men close to you have ever been raped or directly threatened with rape, while a not insignificant portion of women have had experiences which make the threat less abstract;
c)despite its not having a strong rational basis, it is much harder to feel overpowered by people shorter than you are, and so the fundamental visceral response I'm thinking about may not be that likely to be experienced by you, since you're unlikely to come into regular contact with men significantly taller than you. Perhaps if you traveled exclusively among members of the NBA who regularly made objectifying comments about you, we'd have a worthy analogy.

Besides, do we really want to live in some Emily Post meets Andrea Dworkin/Antioch College world where conversations go like this:

"Hello Breasted American, I find you aesthetically pleasing and somewhat arousing, may I extend myself into your personal space?...No, I'm sorry, forgive me for being a white male oppressor."

I'm exaggerating for effect, but that's where we're headed.

hmm, yeah, I really doubt it. That sounds no less offensive than, hey woman, you're hot, wanna dance? No? okay, sorry, good night - in fact sounds much more influenced by robot movies than feminism or etiquette, I have to say.

Basically, I think people tend to be offended by advances when they feel insulted that someone would consider themselves worthy and flattered by advances when they would consider the one making the move usually out of their league (so add to those groups of 7 foot tall guys who will surround you with sexual innuendo the fact that some portion of them would not be considered attractive to you even if you were gay).

And I maintain that even if our hypothetical male mefite said something like "You could have your way with me anytime, honey," or "I'd be happy to be your boy-toy," thus ceding control to the female, there'd still be those who'd consider him sexist and probably drag his ass into MeTa.

Eh, I dunno that it would be any more likely to end up here than the equivalent to a man. In the end, it probably has more to do with the individuals involved and especially their relationship (ie, if they had flirted or joked in person, or even just had both been around long enough that they fundamentally liked one another, there'd be less likelihood of misunderstanding).

Personally, I don't mind these kinds of comments about either sex, and I'm sure the women of mefi can take it fine, although I'm equally sure that some portion would be annoyed. The only reason I brought all this stuff up was because people (well, you anyway :)) were implying that this double standard was completely irrational, without basis, or even somehow an affront to men. My point is really just that while it's something we should probably all try to get past, it seems clear to me that it stems from a quite realistic and common source of fear/trauma, and not just some kind of hysteria.
posted by mdn at 9:41 PM on June 22, 2004

Lord...I never thought I'd see the day when I'd long for us to lighten up and get back to a few good horse-fucking jokes.

S'okay orange swan, I'm an -- dare I say it? -- old hand at this stuff.

That's it, Wolfie...you officially have a new stalker. ;-)
posted by ChrisTN at 6:05 AM on June 23, 2004

You may only wear a loincloth in such pursuits, ChrisTN. And you'd better be bathed and glistening with fragrant oils.
posted by WolfDaddy at 8:04 AM on June 23, 2004