Comments on: Comments on 8144

Post number 8144

MiguelCardoso — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:43:17 -0800

MetaFilter is an American weblog. Europeans here, whether British or continental, are mere tokens. Perhaps we should all give up the international pretense. The truth is that MetaFilter, for those of us not lucky (or, to be frank, unluckly) enough to live in the U.S. or Canada, is fast becoming a domestic concern with an ever-decreasing regard for what happens in the (enormous) rest of the world. Whereas (the few remaining) Europeans here are curious about America, Americans here seem boringly and predictably obsessed with themselves. Is isolationism the growing trend on this board? It certainly seems so. Say the word, by the way, and you can have it all to yourselves, no hard feelings.

It is not a good idea but it's a stone's throw away...

By: amberglow

amberglow — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:46:36 -0800

Not at all! Many of us wish you guys would post more about things (web and otherwise) from elsewhere. Most of us surf US sites so that's where stuff comes from.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:55:05 -0800

WE'RE NUMBER ONE!

U.S.A.! U.S.A.!

:P

By: amberglow

amberglow — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:57:47 -0800

ignore crash.

Do you think we shut out non-US people or make them feel left out, Miguel?

By: mischief

mischief — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:59:07 -0800

Though the diehards will deny it until their dying breaths, Plastic already made this slide. However, rather than "an ever-decreasing regard for what happens in the (enormous) rest of the world", I believe the better description to be "an ever-increasing disregard for foreign opinion about what happens in the rest of the world".

By: MiguelCardoso

MiguelCardoso — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:06:31 -0800

Dearest amberglow, my long-lasting friend, I do think that MeFi is becoming more isolationist and inclusive, more self-referential and less international. Perhaps it started with the absurd anti-French bias, played on the left-wing fiddle.

But, even about a year ago, one got the impression MeFi was about the world as much as it was about the WWW. Now it seems boringly about the U.S.A.

Americans should wise up: the U.S.A. is not that important in the world. Most of the world lives happily without it. Also, Americans should understand how isolated they are from the world and try to make contact with fellow human beings, lest they fester in their own delusions.

My post, however, was presented as a definite insight: MeFi is becoming self-inclusive and local. How many British and European members have stopped posting? Lots. So the feeling remains: perhaps you'd like it all to yourselves?

By: ashbury

ashbury — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:08:56 -0800

With the majority of metafilter members being american, and america being, sadly, the most powerful, not to mention meddling (but that's the subject of a different post) on earth, it's no surprise that the site is america-centric. Its too bad since input from anywhere else in the world is not only welcome, it's just as interesting and important. What to do? Lord knows, I get tired of Kerry this, Bush that, Limbaugh yada yada, clear channel crap, nytimes times times, blah blah blah. But really, whadayado? Miguel, you gave it your best and even you posted your fair share of american stuff. I say you either put your thumb in the dike or you give up. Either way, the way things currently are, you can't escape it, be it on metafilter or in world events.

amberglow, people get left out because of the natural selfishness americans have. I'm not trying to be rude or to paint everybody with a very large brush, but americans tend to be very focused on americans and what's best for americans. metafilter naturally focuses on america.

miguel, you sound bitter. what's up?

By: _sirmissalot_

_sirmissalot_ — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:14:44 -0800

Miguel, surely you must be drunk. If you want international links, please post them. If you think that fewer international posters hang around here, then what can we possibly do about that? The majority of the members here aren't self-absorbed ugly Americans, and you know it. Don't throw stereotypes around so lightly.

By: Lynsey

Lynsey — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:15:05 -0800

I treasure our correspondents from all over the globe and wish to hear more posts from them whenever possible. We have people in Brazil, New Zealand, Australia, Portugal, Sweden, Korea and those are just the countries I remember posters saying they're in; I know there are many more.

However, this post smacks of Miguel having hurt feelings about something and making it sound as if he's going to round up everyone who is not an American or British member and urge them to pack up and go elsewhere, n'est pas?

By: _sirmissalot_

_sirmissalot_ — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:16:10 -0800

Americans should wise up

I mean, really.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:22:15 -0800

"ignore crash"

I've tried and tried, but it just isn't working. Every time I look in the mirror (and I look in the mirror a lot), he's there again.

By: dobbs

dobbs — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:23:01 -0800

Miguel, surely you must be drunk.

I was just going to post the same thing.

Miguel, though I agree with your "analysis", your presentation sucks. As a Canadian, I get tired of posts from USA'ns that take it for granted that everyone here is American. Sometimes it's subtle (like, "Well that's what living here is like!") and sometimes more overt, but it's a problem on the net in general, not just MeFi.

By: Quartermass

Quartermass — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:26:01 -0800

I was thinking about this today as well. Even though I am interested in international politics (including American - especially with what is at stake for the rest of the world if Bush is re-elected), I do find it a tad arrogant that anything to to with American politics is deemed "best of the web." This goes far beyond "Newsfilter" or whatever - more like "AmericaFilter." Another example today is Scarabic's post in AskMe about Federal income tax cutoffs. The assumption being that he was talking about American Federal income tax cutoffs. Etc. etc. etc.

I understand a good majority of the MeFi population are yanks - and I bear them no ill will in anyway. But I totally see Miguel's point, and was actually thinking about posting something like this to MeTa without incurring a pile on. Thanks for being the sacrificial lamb Miguel, and while you are all sharpening your pointing sticks for him, at least think about what he is saying (instead of turning it personal Migs is drunk, cranky, off his rocker, unwelcome etc etc).

By: MiguelCardoso

MiguelCardoso — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:28:10 -0800

We have people in Brazil, New Zealand, Australia, Portugal, Sweden, Korea

Lynsey, perhaps the problem is in your expression "we have people". You certainly don't have me - why should you have anyone else? Who is "we"? Who is "people"?

To be honest, it sounds uncomfortably like British Embassy Staff in the 19th Century talking about "our staff". When you say "we have", what does "we" and "have" exactly mean? You certainly don't "have me", anymore than I have you.

Your very response, Lynsey, in its smug, highly provincial tenor points to the very problem!

By: quonsar

quonsar — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:28:53 -0800

Fergle. Blark. Shleng.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:31:49 -0800

Well, maybe it'll be better after the elections.

And there are plenty of topical posts on the front page right now that are certainly worldwide--memorials, prisons, jazz, olympics, fonts, The Office, alien fireballs, paranoid schizophrenics...

By: amberglow

amberglow — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:33:43 -0800

and crash: mwahhh! : >

By: tetsuo

tetsuo — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:34:22 -0800

Maybe the upcoming American Presidential election has skewed MeFi to the American perspective since it is such a source of anxiety for the American MeFites. Perhaps it will settle down afterwards. Was there a similar trend in 2000?

By: tetsuo

tetsuo — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:35:01 -0800

Damn it amberglow....

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:37:45 -0800

WeMetafilter ~~have people~~has members in Brazil, New Zealand...etc.

Does that make more sense? I'm sure Lynsey's not trying to say she has anyone (although she may, I haven't checked her cellar lately).

By: _sirmissalot_

_sirmissalot_ — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:39:18 -0800

Jesus, Miguel, she meant "we have people" in the sense of a shared community. When I say I "have friends" in New York, it isn't a pronouncement of actual, cultural, or political slavery.

Sorry to use "New York" as my example. You know us, we navel-gazing Americans!

I don't know why I'm letting you rile me up. Damn you Cardoso!

By: amberglow

amberglow — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:39:21 -0800

oh, tetsuo--don't forget to do an absentee ballot before you go abroad.

I don't know--I think most people here are not at all as selfish/uninterested in the world as the general US populace. If there's stuff we're not posting about, then you guys post it.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:44:54 -0800

This whole thread smells kinda Seth-ish when i think about it.

By: tetsuo

tetsuo — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:47:13 -0800

It's done, but it's a Florida ballot, so who knows where it will end up.

By: MiguelCardoso

MiguelCardoso — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:54:16 -0800

By: vacapinta

vacapinta — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:55:29 -0800

MetaFilter is an American weblog. Europeans here, whether British or continental, are mere tokens. Perhaps we should all give up the international pretense.

Also the world extends beyond Europe. Or is that your definition of "international" ;)

I dont know what pretense you're talking about. Metafilter has always been an American weblog, despite the occasional post otherwise.

You've always been one of my favorite contributors and your arrival here definitely livened up the place just when I thought it was about to die. This place could certainly use more international flavor and, ideally, a crowd of users who spend more time plugged into literature and cultural magazines than they do into their Ipods. But berating people here for being who they are is hardly a solution.

Stay or don't stay as you wish but I hope its the former.

By: ashbury

ashbury — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:59:58 -0800

miguel, I'm confused: you used to be a staunch supporter of anything and everything american, from its pop stars to its beverages to its politics. Are you no longer this person? You are coming across as being very bitter and it makes me sad to see you this way because you have always been a paragon of great character and equanimity. Either way, whether you are angry and bitter or not, I agree with you, but the question still remains - what to do about it?

By: tetsuo

tetsuo — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:01:09 -0800

I'm not trying to be rude or to paint everybody with a very large brush

your redneck, hillabilly, American ways

Make up your mind. You just painted me, a Hispanic American, with a very large rude brush I don't particularly care for.

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:02:55 -0800

Why do your threads always make me feel like I'm reading an essay question on a grade 11 exam? It's like you lead out each paragraph of response that you expect and nudge me towards some inclusion.

Other than that, all I'll say is I resent the implication that Canada and the U.S. are somehow similar places to live, or that the fact that's it's U.S. centric is somehow better for Canadians than you crazy and "curious" europeans. Also, recent history would suggest the rest of the world should take more interest in what the U.S. does, because if you think they're better off not then, well, you reap what you sow and all that.

Also, you once again use dodgy statistics (you seem to imply european users are on the downtrend), with no real substantial reason for using them. I'm sure some europeans have left, since a lot of Americans have left over the months/years. That's what happens with no new signups.

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:03:49 -0800

Inclusion? Conclusion!

*shakes head*

By: amberglow

amberglow — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:03:50 -0800

... simply guarantors for your redneck, hillabilly, American ways - or counterpoints to your insularity?
If you seriously believe that, then you'd probably be happier leaving for more worldy climes. Sorry we're too trailer-park for you. (Way to make a point with insults tho--very Seth of you.)

By: ashbury

ashbury — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:03:53 -0800

tetsuo, I said the first and miguel said the second.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:05:09 -0800

oops--worldly. (The trailer must have been rocking as i was typing.)

By: mathowie

mathowie — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:05:18 -0800

Miguel, seriously, what's the deal here? You seem to be lashing out at the site and everyone here out of the blue. I agree with vacapinta that I hope you'd stay, and I hope you continue to post about european and other international matters.

The vast majority of news posts lately have been american centric, but I think it's a reflection of the folks doing posts, as they're mostly american.

The ideal post is likely free of regionalism. An amazing site that gets linked to here is an amazing site, regardless of whether it's american, european, or anything else.

By: tetsuo

tetsuo — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:05:27 -0800

Doh, I'm out, it's too late for this.

By: ashbury

ashbury — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:05:45 -0800

I'm going to bed. who's with me?

looking forward to the 100-plus comments tomorrow morning.

By: DaShiv

DaShiv — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:05:55 -0800

Jesus, Miguel. Are you trying to read everything through the narrow window of your bruised feelings? "We have people in x, y, and z" clearly corresponds to "Metafilter has members in x, y, and z", which is about as neutral and factual (and even a bit conciliatory) response as you can get without kowtowing completely to your Pronouncement From Above. You're reaching mighty hard to try draw a link to anti-Europeanism from that.

Like it or not, this is an accurate reflection of the web. On all the various hobbyist forums I frequent (and I'm not talking about obscure hobbies like collecting Elvis statues but general interest ones like photography), I've sometimes heard the occasional friendly jibe from non-Americans about how USA-centric the flow of information is, whether it's product announcements and release dates, current deals, or even buying, selling, and trading--but also with the resigned recognition of how it reflects upon the sites' membership. All of the demographic polling results of Anglophone sites I've seen have had results that heavily favored Americans, unless it's a site with a specific international or regional focus.

I don't see anyone shouting down links of international interest--in fact, many here have already been openly critical of Bushfilter. Why don't you post some links with a non-American focus and see how well they're received?

Another example today is Scarabic's post in AskMe about Federal income tax cutoffs. The assumption being that he was talking about American Federal income tax cutoffs.

What? You're not going to jump on people asking about American cities like Chicago as well? :)

I don't see this "assumption of Americanism" as a conscious attempt on the part of Americans to exclude non-Americans, but rather a benign facet of the American vernacular (that is to say, implicitly equating "Federal" with "American" and so forth) which just happens to be the vernacular Mefi's largest demographic. Why read malice into an issue of familiarity in expression?

On preview: I type too slowly.

By: wendell

wendell — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:08:26 -0800

Have your people call my people.

Some American dominance is inevitable as long as the default language here is ~~American~~English, and the U.S.of A. seems to be going through a high-profile, high-stakes kind of political thing right now. If you, Migs, or anybody else can come up with a few good links to English-language reports about some other nation's wacky leadership, it would make one heckofa good Front Page Post.

Just don't do it about Turkmenistan. Somebody else has it covered.

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:15:06 -0800

What's revealing is that Miguel painted Canadians with the same broad brush as USAians. Which shows how full of shit he is. By many measurements, Canadians are among the most world-aware, intellectually cosmopolitan people. Certainly more so than the average European.

Americans are chauvinistic and self-interested. So are most other peoples. MeFi is, what, 95% USAian? Any community with that overwhelming representation of one demographic will be somewhat exclusive of that remaining 5%.

I'd love more non-USAians here. I'd appreciate it if, for example, we'd call ourselves "USAians". I'm also annoyed at the many posts which not only take for granted a USA context, but implicitly deny the existence of any other context. And I quite enjoy most of the mefites that are non-USAian.

I don't, however, like you, Miguel, and your self-indulgent, ostentatious MeTawhatsits, lately with bonus whining. You can leave.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:20:12 -0800

Within the last 6 weeks I've made posts related to Japan, Ireland, Afghanistan, India, China, Columbia, and Antarctica. Some of us Americans do have international interests.

By: Vidiot

Vidiot — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:23:46 -0800

Matteo, for example, like romakimmy, is a token Italian. I'm a token Portuguese, There are a few British members, all articulate and forceful (you all know who they are). We seem to exist as tokens, presences which assure you you're not alone, colourful "continental types" which extend your limited influence.

What makes you think this? Can you cite some specific examples? I'm honestly befuddled here.

You (and the others you've mentioned) aren't tokens. When I see a post by MiguelCardoso, or matteo, or stavros, or gen, or dabitch, or dobbs, et cetera, I don't think that they automatically represent every Portuguese/Italian/Canadian living in Korea/Japanese/Dane/Canadian/et cetera. That would be tokenism, and it's why tokenism is insidious -- because it's making one person stand in for the opinions of a whole bunch of people, more often than not ill-defined.

Why should I treat you as a token Portuguese, or a token half-Portuguese, half-Englishman, or even as a token European? Granted, you're the only person I know who lives in Portugual, but I certainly don't think that all Portuguese are exactly like you.

Perhaps the truth is that Europeans here (no more than 5% at best) are simply guarantors for your redneck, hillabilly, American ways - or counterpoints to your insularity?

What exactly do you mean by this? What does "guarantors for your. . .American ways" mean? You seriously think that all the USian MeFites got together and decided that we'd humor the non-US MeFites by virtue of their providing a token counterpoint to our little exclusive site? Hardly.

Are you doing okay? I've never seen you take this sort of tone before, Miguel, and I'm a bit worried. I like you, and having your voice on the site. And for what it's worth, I think the place would be poorer if you (and/or other non-US MeFites) left.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:26:34 -0800

Miguel, why don't you just start posting links again? Maybe that would start something.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:26:55 -0800

(And yes, I know Antacrtica is a continent not a country, but it isn't America.)

Say the word, by the way, and you can have it all to yourselves, no hard feelings.

I certainly don't want you to leave, but my feelings aside, didn't you promise us another post on Fado? Some of us are still waiting (or did I miss it, somehow?)

By: birdherder

birdherder — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:40:47 -0800

I miss MeFi's old worldly flavour [our at least what I remember]. I liked hearing even newsfiltery things from outside the US. Miguel's posts have always been something I looked forward to reading and feel this place isn't the same without him.

I implore those not living outside the USian empire to post and make the posts local -- or at least non US centric. I ~~have~~am happy :) :) to live here, but am very curious about what is going on everywhere else. God knows I can't get exposure from US media.

Perhaps Matt can allow unlimited signups from IPs outside the US to help balance the userbase. I'd love for the day when there's a huge MeTa fight over allowing posting/comments in language other than US English. Or complaints in MeTa that the babblefish translation isn't working in the latest build of Firefox.

[Also, this post sort of reminds me of the MeTa complaint about too many articles from the New Yorker when most of us do not live in New York. Maybe when Matt sells MeFi to eBay they will have a yourcityorcountryhere.metafilter.com set up]

By: homunculus

homunculus — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:44:46 -0800

Perhaps it started with the absurd anti-French bias

Which is primarily the work of a single troll who you defend.

By: reklaw

reklaw — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:45:51 -0800

This is not an Metafilter thing -- it's an whole-Internet thing. If you go anywhere on the English-speaking 'net, whether it's blogs, forums, IRC, Usenet or whatever else, you end up talking to Americans. Even Google is America-centric: I can't count the number of times I've searched for an English town, only to be asked if I want a map to Birmingham AL, or Manchester NH, or (for goodness' sake!) Reading PA. Yes, even on google.co.uk -- really shits me, actually.

The problem is, once you let an American in anywhere, everything usually seems to suddenly become all about America. Most of what I read daily ends up being like that. I bet I know more about obscure American politicians than you guys know about, well, anything England-related. When there is a post about somewhere other than America, it's often basically of the form "lookit them thar crazy furriners doing x". But how can I blame you, when your culture is so you-centric? I mean, international news on the TV? Pah! Heck, if this was anywhere other than mefi, half of you probably wouldn't even know where England was.

It is amusing, though, that Miguel's idea of "international" is so Europe-centric, and that he apparently thinks him leaving will signal the end of mefi's internationality. I think the general consensus here is that Cardoso is a cockmonkey.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:51:13 -0800

Vietnam, Cambodia, Nepal, etc.

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:56:19 -0800

I agree that the so-called Electionfilter is currently responsible for the effect Miguel brought up here. Give it a few months, the election will be over and no one will feel the need to post where a given candidate shat the previous Tueday. Or, alternatively, the election will be canceled, martial law declared in the US, and Metafilter disbanded. Either way, problem solved.

/waiting for this thread to turn into the usual lovefest and/or orgy.

By: The God Complex

The God Complex — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:57:54 -0800

I, too, miss Miguel's "international" links to the bbc. Ahh, but I jest, for though two Miguels is a Miguel too many, a Miguelless metafilter is a metafilter not worth living in. I think I know the source of your troubles: the newly liberated Iraq--liberated in large part by the arrogant american imperialist dogs--sent a football team to the Olympics which trounced your beloved Portueguese squad. Coupled with the heart-wrenching defeat at the hands of the steroid-friendly Greeks, you're at the end of your rope.

Go down half a bottle of cognac and watch the sunrise or sunset, Miguel. Things will look up tomorrow. Toooomorrrowwwwwww is just a day away.

By: vacapinta

vacapinta — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:58:37 -0800

I think the general consensus here is that Cardoso is a cockmonkey.

Now, you're making the same mistake Miguel is making: Stating your opinion and then presuming to speak for a larger class of people.

By: trharlan

trharlan — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:59:51 -0800

I never knew that MiguelCardoso's password was "login".

By: sebas

sebas — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:02:51 -0800

The only problem I see with the American-centrist nature of Metafilter is that the Zürich meetings seem to consist of me getting drunk on my own.

For the rest I don't think 'the best of the web' is purely American. The newsfilter crap is of course.

By: meech

meech — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:08:34 -0800

This site is American - the owner is American, the server is in America and the majority of users are American. Sometimes I wonder whether I should spell center instead of centre or humor instead of humour.

When I respond, I often find that I have to type "But here in New Zealand..." or sometimes I just dont respond because I think "Does the New Zealand perspective really matter in this situation?" [our country being smaller in population than Los Angeles]. Or I dont respond because it would be time consuming and long-winded to have to explain the background for my response; If I typed "He looked like George Bush" you're all with me, if I wanted to write "She looked like Helen Clark", I've lost practically everyone [She's the Prime Minister of New Zealand if you were wondering].

As an example - I wanted to post about the Rugby World Cup to the front page and I decided to post it as USA Surrenders to small country and use a link Friends. Now that may have been overly cautious on my part but it's how I felt the FPP would be best received.

If you come from a smaller culture and are communicating with a bigger [even, global] group you will feel like you are the minority because....you are. I honestly dont see any of this as bad - it's just the way it is. Help remedy it Miguel, post what you want to post.

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:14:01 -0800

Now, you're making the same mistake Miguel is making: Stating your opinion and then presuming to speak for a larger class of people.

I disagree—I think he qualified that sufficiently ("I think the general consensus...") to avoid giving offense. Generalizations don't bother me when they have both those types of qualifiers. That is, an explicit admission that this is subjective ("I think..."), and an explicit statement that it's a generalization ("...general consensus...") and not a universal categorical. This is off-topic, but I do think that because generalizations are useful and ubiquitous they shouldn't be prohibited, just phrased cautiously.

By: weston

weston — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:16:31 -0800

Americans should wise up: the U.S.A. is not that important in the world. Most of the world lives happily without it.

Americans can be terribly ethnocentric and absorbed only in events here, but to say that the USA is not important is no more true than saying the EU is not important -- and as isolationist as anything else you've mentioned.

How many British and European members have stopped posting? Lots. So the feeling remains: perhaps you'd like it all to yourselves?

Was there some point at which MeFites said that non-Americans should just step off?

Miguel, in the last 24 hours, I've recommended a Brazilian pop singer for listening on a desert island (and a book about Samoa), seen a discussion about Glasgow, read discussion about the languages of the olympics, and digested a british article about the growing presence of porn in their culture... yes there has also been discussion of American visas, American meddling in the Venzuelan olympics, America getting beat by Puerto Rico in Basketball, and while those subjects involve America, they involve American interaction with the world. I don't think we're doing that badly.

Could we have more links sans-USA context? Sure. But I don't know how to do that, really. My personal context is grounded in the U.S.A. and I don't have the resources to do more -- unless you want to put me up in Portugal for a while. In which case I will gladly come and learn Portugues and Fado and post nothing about America.

By: milovoo

milovoo — Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:43:24 -0800

Tonight I'm staying up all night to watch the olympics from Athens and, for the events that I don't know anything about, I've decided to cheer for the either the Australians or Ukrainians. In real life I'm having the opposite sensation then that of this post, I feel like I'm learning more about groups of people from other countries and I'm more connected to the rest of the world than usual. I'm glad that American network television has made such a large commitment to showing this and pleased with the general lack of US bias in the commentary.

As for metafilter, I think the solution to this is the same as for the complaints about newsfilter and a few similar complaints about various post ratios - the people who know stuff should post more links because I'm probably missing out on all sorts of great stuff from the rest of the world, but I don't know where to start.

(i.e. someone recommended Pimms in my ask.me drink thread. It was tough to find, but we made a big batch of strong punch for the opening ceremonies, and I think I have found a new favorite!)

By: rushmc

rushmc — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:04:00 -0800

:::boggles at this person pretending to be MiguelCardoso:::

By: mcsweetie

mcsweetie — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:09:37 -0800

shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up

By: FidelDonson

FidelDonson — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:10:02 -0800

As a lurking member since 12/9 2001 i've allways regarded metafilter as my personal usa-filter. Back then i became a member because i was interested in how the usa'ians coped with the new world order - with the broadening of US sphere of influence over the past couple of years that interest has settled in me and become a very important factor in my political life and one that i have found no better sources for than metafilter

I have allways been extremely discontent with the way the usa is covered in our national media - there is absolutely no depth - and as a result of this no one i know of (exept mabye few vietnam draft dodgers who have stayed on in this country and are friends of my dad) has any meaningful appreciation of what Gods own country is all about.

We have Clearchannel all over the place and no one cares because know one knows what it is.

I can't say i'm sorry that metafilter is usa-centric. It wouldn't be metafilter if it wasn't, but i would like to add that i regret any decline in the international perspective af this community.

By: loquacious

loquacious — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:11:28 -0800

Citizens of the World: MetaFilter needs your international links, badly!

Apologies in advance if the majority of us here in the USA only understand English; Our school systems are generally lacking, and English is difficult to unlearn and even more poorly taught to begin with.

Please teach us and share what you know. It's the only way we'll learn from you.

Frankly I starve for international perspectives, opinions, arts, things, foods and more - here in the USA. They're so far and few between.

It's your duty. It really is. We're here and listening. Perhaps we Amerikans haven't been appreciative enough or something, or perhaps a few snarky US-centric bastards have turned you off. I think I can safely guess that for every snarky US-centric bastard there's a dozen or more quietly appreciative folks just reading in the background and absorbing.

Please post more. Make MetaFilter yours, and ours together. Teach us. Even if - in the unlikely situation - you're only able to teach me, you've taught at least one person who makes it a life-long passion to further teach others what he's learned, and that should make it worth it.

Down with the Nation-State and the warring Citadels! Up with culture and the rapidly growing Global Community!

By: seanyboy

seanyboy — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:47:39 -0800

My personal opinion. There are times when metafilter leaves me feeling the site is *too* biased towards American issues. Either there will be a rash of posts about Bush or the elections, or an international link will be berated by American members as not relavant. I think I'm being overly sensitive though. From my UK persective, plenty of the links posted to MeFi come from the BBC, or the guardian, or involve British TV shows. Even though I sometimes think my country isn't represented, most of the time, it is.

By: dayvin

dayvin — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:28:37 -0800

Who said the rest of the world leads their lives without the US? If it wasn't for the economic might of the US, the whole of Europe would still be reeling from the after-effects of WWII. The same goes for Japan. No one in the world lives in disregard of the US, which makes the stereotypical American navel-gazing all-the-more tragic.

Instead of bitching, though, we Europeans should refuse to give in to it. Educate wilfully ignorant and/ or isolationistic Americans despite themselves.

Also, we should recognise that calling Americans introspective is a gross and untrue generalisation.

By: taz

taz — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:36:24 -0800

Sssh. Most of the U.S. Americans (and those collaborationist pigdog Canadians) are asleep now, so it's time for the rest of you to come out and get your hate on! Miguel did pretty good with "redneck" and "hillbilly", but can't anyone improve on this? Suggested adjectives include: fat, stupid, ugly, bigoted, gangrenous, putrid, and icky. Possible epithets include: hick, sister-molester, whoredog, and fartface.

And get creative! Consider the following Jokes, for example: "I need to borrow an American's face for a few days; my ass is going on holiday", "If I ever need a brain transplant, I'd choose an American's because I'd want a brain that has never been used", and "The typical American is born with a silver shovel in his mouth".

Mix and match! Get nasty! Go nuts!

By: Blue Stone

Blue Stone — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 02:29:42 -0800

If When signups re-open, Matt could operate a 75% non-USA quota. That would help alleviate any bias.

That's, apparently, me supporting positive discrimination.

Catch the him by his horns,
Throw the American down the well!
Everybody!
Throw the Amer...

By: dash_slot-

dash_slot- — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 02:48:22 -0800

Will finish reading this thread soon, but I have to give a little love to Miggy on this. Lord knows, I begrudge having to say 'Miguel has a point ... (",)

I don't know if anyone ever notices, but when this issue gets to me, I post a comment pointing out 'YankFilter'. The example of federal tax rates is not so silly: It would derail the thread if we all facetiously posted the info apt to our national tax regimes, but it would make the point: this poster thinks inside a box.

I cannot right now think of a solution to the issue. Will complete the thread (62 comments since I went to bed: shee-yit!) and come on back.

By: metaxa

metaxa — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 02:48:51 -0800

Just to add my 2 cents (or should that be 2 euros/pounds/yen/beanz?). As a proud, patriotic Brit, I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree with Miguel. I envisage it only getting worse as the US election draws nearer. The whole web is full of this US-centric bias, and it appears to fester and grow every day.

I even can't begin to explain how annoyed I get when I go to a website and have to fill in a form, only to be asked what state I live in, or why-o-why 'United States' seems to be the default selection on every damn 'Country' drop-down list.

By: salmacis

salmacis — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:12:37 -0800

As a Brit, I also think Miguel has a point. It's not so much about the range of posts, because that's for all of us to adress. It's more about the underlying assumption that we are all American. If a post is specific to the UK, it should be noted as such. Yet this never seems to apply to US-specific posts.

By: Ljubljana

Ljubljana — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:21:20 -0800

I don't think Miguel's problem is that Metafilter isn't producing enough internationally flavored threads (it most certainly is -- just check plep's very rich posting history for starters) but rather that these posts are, at best, littered with a few congratulatory comments (super stuff, thanks, hama!) or, at worst, derail into abominations like the Bam thread. In the meantime, any thread that contains the words "Bush" or "election" or "Moore" (or a variant thereof) is guaranteed to draw dozens of active comments.

Matteo's masterfully crafted post about Olga Rudge/Ezra Pound (which looks like it took hours to produce) got 15 comments -- four of them from matteo himself, the rest from the usual suspects. (Miguel, taz, the hat, etc..) In the meantime, a yahoo news link about the death of King Kong's girlfriend inspired 20 comments.

Perhaps you want to remind me that this isn't a competition, and to some extent I agree with you. But the fact is that the amount of comments do (roughly) reveal the subjects people here feel comfortable talking about. And cultural posts as well as many "foreign" posts, can't match the audience for American politics. That leaves one with the choice of posting things that will get a few cursory thank-yous, or leaving it alone. And I think a lot of people will eventually choose the latter.

Also: I heartily support Blue Stone's quota idea. I would suggest that anyone living in a country with no active Metafilter member receive instant membership, with some countries getting most-favored nation status (i.e. Iraq) and allowed many more. (If we're going to post about Iraq for the next ten or so years, it would be nice to hear from some actual Iraqis.)

By: dash_slot-

dash_slot- — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:30:14 -0800

I would suggest that anyone living in a country with no active Metafilter member receive instant membership, with some countries getting most-favored nation status (i.e. Iraq) and allowed many more. (If we're going to post about Iraq for the next ten or so years, it would be nice to hear from some actual Iraqis.)
It wouldn't be difficult to find these guys: lots of warbloggers link to Iraqi blogs. An email invite would be well received by mesopotamian, hammurabbi, salam, I'm sure.

Great idea.

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:37:08 -0800

By the way, since when was "a stone's throw away" a temporal metaphor?

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:46:56 -0800

What rampant gubbins.

By: dydecker

dydecker — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:47:22 -0800

Puerto Rico 92, USA 73

Huzzah!

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:51:44 -0800

I'm with quonsar on this one.

Fergle. Blark. Shleng, even.

By: romakimmy

romakimmy — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:56:09 -0800

And cultural posts as well as many "foreign" posts, can't match the audience for American politics.

What's the difference between an American and yoghurt?

Yoghurt has more culture.

Migs, while I most assuredly agree with your point (though not neccessarily the way it was presented), please remember that I am un'americana in Roma. Matteo's the token wog in these parts; I am merely half-wog, a palid substitute for the glorious full-blooded beauty which is Italian.

If you'll excuse me now, I need to find some links about the deadline issued by Al-Queda for Italy to pull out of Iraq expiring yesterday and the subsequent ramping up of security. ~~ItalNews~~TelegiornaleFilter! (I jest)

Sto scherzando con 'wog' matteo. Spero che hai passato un buon ferragosto.

By: sebas

sebas — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 04:23:19 -0800

Well, I'd love to find interesting posts about the country I live in, however it's arguably one of the most boring places in the world. (Not as in, most boring place to live in, but more as in nothing too exciting happens.)

It also has 4 official languages, most of which I don't speak, which kinda makes finding cool pages hard.

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 04:33:47 -0800

I fucking love Switzerland. Better Zug than Addis Ababa any day.

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 04:34:53 -0800

And I approve the country-based-membership-bias thing.

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 04:36:52 -0800

But I wonder if it would result in desperate Americans chosing their holiday destination based on where they can login and pretend to be foreign from.

By: seanyboy

seanyboy — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 04:45:14 -0800

Talking of cultural differences...
Am I the only person freaked out when people use the word Wog to mean Italian.

By: sebas

sebas — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 04:46:10 -0800

PG, I don't mean I don't like the country. I choose to live here and am impressed every day by the countryside and the people. (And 12% income tax). Plus, I can see the alps from my house on a clear day! Coming from the Netherlands that is quite amazing.

By: darukaru

darukaru — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 05:16:41 -0800

itz tru, we r dumm

By: y6y6y6

y6y6y6 — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 05:29:58 -0800

"When you say "we have", what does "we" and "have" exactly mean?"

It means you don't get it. To the point of incredulity even.

By: fullerine

fullerine — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 05:30:49 -0800

I was just about to make a snarky comment about the Iraq - Portugal result and its possible influence on this thread when I realised that Miguel has a point. It's not just MeFi and it's not just the Web, this is how the world has been since world war 2 and although the last few years have seen a change in the American "voice", it seems to be reverting to the sentiments espoused by mr_crash_davis at the beginning of this thread.

If you remember, people thought the Twin Tower attacks would see a new USA which was less "arrogant", "insular" and "meddling", for a while this was the case. That said, is it really such a tragedy that things didn't turn out like this? Seems to me non-USAsians just need to carry on as they were before, just like the USAsians seem to be doing.

By: dayvin

dayvin — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 05:31:49 -0800

The wogs begin at Calais, Seanyboy.

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 05:35:41 -0800

USAsians

I like United Statesian.

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 05:36:24 -0800

So who's the token wog now?

By: sciurus

sciurus — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 05:38:06 -0800

I'm quite interested in links to non-American things, especially anything from around the Orient, but I have no idea how to go about finding meaty non-American sites, perhaps because I don't speak the language, perhaps because I don't have context...

I'd love to learn what it means to be* Portugeuse, Armenian, Senegalese, Uruguayan, but it is infinitely easier to just stick with American stuff. Sort of like it is easier to complain about Amero-centrism instead of fighting it by posting groovy non-American links.

*by 'means to be' i mean how y'all think, what's cooking in your culture, what y'all have for national goals, etc. and of course, this all stems from my interest in other cultures, not to be taken by any means as a disregard for individual ideology, etc etc. disclaim disclaim.

By: pardonyou?

pardonyou? — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 06:45:53 -0800

This is just about the lamest, most naval-gazing, woe-is-me post I've ever read. To my knowledge, Matt has never filtered sign-ups by country. What you see is the result of a completely geographically-neutral process. Whenever any one American signed up, someone from China, Luxembourg, or Chile could have signed up, too. The negative effects you perceive have nothing to do with MeFi, and everything to do with other issues (smaller populations, relatively lower proportion of internet usage) that are reflected throughout the web as a whole.

But if it really makes you feel better, Miguel, I will happily give up my user name/account, or allow Matt to close mine, in exchange for a new user from some under-represented foreign nation who will agree to add posts to the front page that make you feel better. Really. No strings attached. E-mail's in the profile.

By: johnnyboy

johnnyboy — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 06:56:43 -0800

EB we get the message, you don't like migs and would like him to fuck off, please return to your scheduled programme.

By: ook

ook — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:01:20 -0800

Say the word, by the way, and you can have it all to yourselves, no hard feelings.

This is you speaking on behalf of the entire world, right?

By: PinkStainlessTail

PinkStainlessTail — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:12:20 -0800

Similarly, if I leave, every single left-handed mefite will go too. Don't say you haven't been warned.

By: Cyrano

Cyrano — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:19:28 -0800

Or why-o-why 'United States' seems to be the default selection on every damn 'Country' drop-down list.

Because you don't get a lot of people in Afghanistan signing up for porn sites?

By: JanetLand

JanetLand — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:20:47 -0800

You're a sweetie Migsmeister, but I gotta say I resent being called "boringly and predictably obsessed" with myself when I haven't done anything to deserve it.

By: riffola

riffola — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:23:01 -0800

I was about to sit and read this entire thread, but instead I'm gonna go see Harold & Kumrar Go To White Castle.

By: riffola

riffola — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:24:12 -0800

grr that's Kumar not Kumrar!

By: grateful

grateful — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:30:01 -0800

To my knowledge, Matt has never filtered sign-ups by country. What you see is the result of a completely geographically-neutral process.

The latest user signup started at 3pm EST, which works well for Americans but not so for Europeans and Asians.

By: soundofsuburbia

soundofsuburbia — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:33:25 -0800

MetaFilter needs your international links, badly!

HotSpot Stockholm is probably not worthy of a front page post, though. (Too regional.) But I feel like plugging it somewhere, so here you go. :)

By: geekhorde

geekhorde — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:39:53 -0800

"Americans are so stupid. And self centered. And unimportant. And they're wankers. And hillbillys. And rednecks. And they lack diversity. Or tolerance. I'm tired of posts about America. Why aren't there more posts about Portugal or Switzerland or France? Why aren't there more posts that relate to me? Me me me me?!?"

Seriously. Listen to yourself. I'm paraphrasing, but I think I get my point across.

To call America unimportant is idiotic. What do you think is going to happen to the economy of the EU when Bush pulls all our boys back home from bases in Europe?

There are places in Europe where they won't serve Americans, or Europeans who have lived for a long period in America. Who's being provincial?

If America and Americans are slanting a tad bit isolationist, maybe it's because we're seeing a bit more anti-Americanism from Europe and other parts of the world. Europeans love to paint us as provincial buffoons. There's a long history of that. It doesn't seem to have stopped yet.

And I'm not even talking about Iraq, although I'm sure that is often used as an excuse for rude behavior on the part of Europeans toward Americans.

And for you to denegrate Americans by calling us hicks or rednecks is just as small minded and xenophobic as anything any idiot in America ever says about Europeans.

Don't look down your nose at me just because your country has been around longer than mine. That's just an accident of history. You could have been born here.

If you have a problem with what's posted here, be a part of a solution. Don't bitch. Don't like the flavor? Convince some people in your area to log on when new membership opens up.

Oh yeah, and to lump our good friends in Canada with us stupid, fat, ugly and lazy Americans is really unfair to the Canadians.

By: longbaugh

longbaugh — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:56:02 -0800

I've been reading MeFi for 4 and a bit years now and have always had a soft spot for the MigMeister ever since I read his suave, cultured posts - I beg of you Miguel, don't leave, this place really is better for your presence.

In the meantime I promise the next few FPPs I make will be so Euro-centric that PP will have no choice but to scorch in out of the sun dropping his anti-eurotrash hysteria. I urge all other non-US MeFites to find something that our colonial cousins may be unfamiliar with and show them how much fun the rest of the world can be.

On preview, geekhorde, on my recent visit to the US I found virtually everyone I met to be universally helpful and polite. Very few imbeciles were seen (maybe you tucked them away during the visit) and I cruised around getting my "English Discount" on everything. I thoroughly enjoyed my time there. So much so I may be moving to the US in the next few years.

There are ignorant people wherever you go (my current abode is surrounded by people with webbed fingers and eyes that are a bit close together if you catch my meaning) and I do dislike it when it is assumed that all yanks are thick.

By: biffa

biffa — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:58:15 -0800

I was about to sit and read this entire thread, but instead I'm gonna go see Harold & Kumrar Go To White Castle.

You realise that it's only called that in N. America don't you, you parochial neo-imperialist running dog?

By: romakimmy

romakimmy — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:02:12 -0800

There are places in Europe where they won't serve Americans, or Europeans who have lived for a long period in America.

Where? I have yet to see this supposed "rude to Americans" attitude. Recpirocal rudeness to assholes, now that I can buy.

There is a distinct difference between:

1) America the government
2) America the swaggering "We're #1" mentality
3) Americans as individuals

The majority of people seem to be able to distingush between the three.

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:10:34 -0800

My irritation is the tendency to lump together everyone from the US. This country is huge. So huge, in fact, that the only things americans have in common are passport covers (if they have 'em) and a president.

Culturally, New Englanders have a lot more in common with Canadians than we do with most parts of the rest of our country's governance. And other parts of the country would agree that Boston (or New York) has nothing to do with them and our relationship is de jure but not de facto.

So a post about something American is not automatically more relevant to a US citizen than it is to a Brit or a Thai or a Pitcairn Islander. My countrymen live east of Ohio and north of Maryland, with pockets in the northern Midwest and Pacific Northwest. Otherwise, I'm just as left out as you are.

By: riffola

riffola — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:15:28 -0800

biffa said: You realise that it's only called that in N. America don't you, you parochial neo-imperialist running dog?

Eh what do I know? I'm just an Indian in NYC.

By: pardonyou?

pardonyou? — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:19:39 -0800

I was about to sit and read this entire thread, but instead I'm gonna go see Harold & Kumrar Go To White Castle.

I've decided to go to The Olive Garden for some of that Eye-Talian food. Then me an' the boys is gonna go shoot at some varmin down by the ol' swimmin' hole. Then tonight I'll unwind in front of the tube and watch some NASCAR while the old ball-and-chain fetches me some Coors. At some point before I drift off to a sleep in my Laz-E-Boy with spilled nacho cheese hardening on my wife-beater, a vision of the broader, cultured world will flit oh-so-briefly across my synapses, only to be replaced by a vision of a bikini-clad babe swimming in a pool of beer. Mmmmm. Beeeer.

By: caddis

caddis — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:21:16 -0800

The basic issue has existed long before Metafilter.
I'm So Bored with the U.S.A.

By: liam

liam — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:22:54 -0800

But then there's a World Trade Center on Klarabergsviadukten in central Stockholm.

By: dash_slot-

dash_slot- — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:25:15 -0800

What you see is the result of a completely geographically-neutral process.
So is my HotDogs-For-The-World Project. Only, cos the sign is outside my flat, between the hours of 3.00-4.00 BST, so far no yanks have actually requested one of my world famous hot dogs. It is however equal opps: any wop, dago, mick, kike, limey, frog or kraut can have one. Honest!*

What do you think is going to happen to the economy of the EU when Bush pulls all our boys back home from bases in Europe? Uh, dude, he's sending 'em to Poland: now part of the EU.

There are places in Europe where they won't serve Americans
Cite?

Seriously, the posts one can read or not, whether about friggin Greenland or West Virginia. That's cool. Only thing that ain't is when a discussion on politics in general [say, theory of conservatism] *inevitably* narrows down to friggin Rush Limbaugh. That the yank posters can only think in terms of yank conservatism is the symptom. The disease is the dominance of a single nationality. It is a disease about as serious as athlete's foot, and as easlily remedied.

* I don't think that the genesis of the project was unfair, and how Mefi came about is why it's original userbase was so america-centric. Mathowie has, if I remember correctly, already expressed keen interest in broadening the nationalities represented here. All good things come to those who wait. Right?

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:33:14 -0800

It is a disease about as serious as athlete's foot, and as easily remedied.

Peeing on your own foot? *looks doubtful*

OK, man, I'll give it a go....

By: mr.marx

mr.marx — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:38:16 -0800

What do you think is going to happen to the economy of the EU when Bush pulls all our boys back home from bases in Europe?

LOL! Are you serious?

Btw, I'm with Migs on this one.

By: darukaru

darukaru — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:40:37 -0800

I beg of you Miguel, don't leave, this place really is better for your presence.
Which is what this whole thing is really all about. Nothing like a good old-fashioned attention whoreorama, from the king thereof.

By: stonerose

stonerose — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:53:59 -0800

~~Ripper~~ Miguel is a gangster!!!1!1!

By: Skot

Skot — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:55:08 -0800

Nothing like a good old-fashioned attention whoreorama, from the king thereof.

Word. "I'm so disgusted with Metafilter! So disgusted that I'm going to start a laughably provocative thread about it!"

By: jazzkat11

jazzkat11 — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:08:04 -0800

I, for one, welcome the euro-ization of the site.

Gladly, I will trade in my mindless self interest and overbearing Americanism for the international climes of my brothers abroad.

Personally, I long for my Gaulloises and Pernod; congratulating myself on my enlightened status, knowing it is better to stand aside and be critical, rather than participate and be one of them.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:17:09 -0800

This site may be mostly American, but they're American Leftists who deep down all wish they were European anyway, which is odd because a big chunk of America is populated by people who tried desperately to escape Europe.

I kid. Sorta.

*puts on Uncle Sam suit, stands arm in arm with Miguel, sgt. serenity, i_cola, and romakimmy singing "It's a Small World After All"*

By: dhoyt

dhoyt — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:17:54 -0800

I'm pissed that all the German-owned community sites I visit always want to focus on Germany. The audacity!

WHAT.
THE.
FUCK.
GERMANY?

If anything good comes out of this thread, though, it's that maybe some folks will think twice about posting boorish Mainstream-American-Politics/Election threads. You know who you are, thoust craven shard-borne bugbears!

Sorry, I've been hitting the random Shakespearean insult-generator a lot lately. That, and the bottle.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:23:11 -0800

The post deserves a close analysis as thoughtful as itself. So here goes:

Americans should wise up: the U.S.A. is not that important in the world.

Are you drunk?

Also, Americans should understand how isolated they are from the world and try to make contact with fellow human beings, lest they fester in their own delusions.

Man, you're really drunk, aren't you?

My post, however, was presented as a definite insight

Uh-oh. Bartender, better cut him off.

So the feeling remains: perhaps you'd like it all to yourselves?

Clear the floor -- he's swinging wildly and frothing!

To all of you saying "Migs has a point" -- of course Migs has a point. Migs is an intelligent person with a wide-ranging mind; he has more points than he knows what to do with. But the idea that MeFi could use more international input is so uncontroversial it's been brought up many times before, with many ingenious ideas about how this could be brought about. So there's no real reason for this post except that Miguel is feeling surly and unappreciated and wants people to sob and say "Please, Migs, don't go -- we love you!" and snarl at people who tell Miguel not to let the door hit him in the ass (which is an almost irresistible temptation).

Seriously, Miguelinho, if you want more international posts, make more international posts. Ever heard the old line about lighting candles vs cursing the darkness? And try to get a lot of water in your system; it really helps with the hangover.

By: timeistight

timeistight — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:23:40 -0800

Well, maybe it'll be better after the elections.

I'm expecting a year of analyzing the results followed by three years of escalating hysteria about the upcoming 2008 election.

By: dhoyt

dhoyt — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:28:46 -0800

Not to mention t0tally juicy accusations of the election being "stolen", d00d!

By: MiguelCardoso

MiguelCardoso — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:31:50 -0800

I'm afraid most reactions to my concern about an increasingly isolationist and self-important trend on MetaFilter are along the lines of "Don't you love America/MetaFilter/us anymore?" I do. Very much so. And I've repeatedly proved it. That's the point. Why else should I care?

It's not a question of where one's from - it's a question of focus or viewpoint; of trying to be humanly (rather than locally) relevant. It's precisely because MetaFilter users are traditionally open-minded and self-critical that I find the current obsession so limiting and boring.

Perhaps it is due to the upcoming elections - but just how important are they? I'd say not much. But whether they are or not, surely it's an enormous pity that they now colour more than half of our threads, generally appearing as if the choice were life-or-death.

It's not all a question of "America: love it or leave it." The real question, perhaps, is: why are Americans so obsessed with America and why do they interpret non-Americans' opinions on art and world affairs in terms of their attitude to the particular country that is the U.S.A.

That is the danger, in my opinion. I'm sorry, btw, if I sounded bitter or ungrateful. More like worried, I'd say!

By: languagehat

languagehat — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:38:02 -0800

Perhaps it is due to the upcoming elections - but just how important are they? I'd say not much.

Jesus Christ, what do we have to do to get you to take us seriously -- invade Portugal?

By: jazzkat11

jazzkat11 — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:39:53 -0800

Not to mention t0tally juicy accusations of the election being "stolen", d00d!

Are you referring to the liberals headed by the unassuming Paul Martin, or the Minshu-to dominance of the Shugi-in? Or possibly you are alluding to the democratic nationalist Svetozar Marovic?

By: the fire you left me

the fire you left me — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:48:52 -0800

It bothers me when people respond to statements with "have you consumed something that is altering what I want you to say?"

I think it gives more to the person to respond to a statement at face value, rather than the lessening of someone's ideas with a busybody's innuendo.

By: twine42

twine42 — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:02:07 -0800

The economy of this part of the EU will be much happier without the American forces here.

Why? Well because you have no damned input into anything English. Just about everything is shipped in from America, including your damned cars in the American owned on site dealerships. You then pay your gas at American rates and flood our countryside with your fumes. Not being intentionally arsey, but that particular argument was bullshit.

We'll get no polution from people who aren't a part of our country, but we will regain large acreage of brownfield land that's just perfect for building housing on. More housing means lower prices, which means our economy stabilises.

Please. Remove your army from this particular part of the EU. *waves*

By: romakimmy

romakimmy — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:19:49 -0800

That song gives me hives jonmc. Large ones.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:40:35 -0800

The real question, perhaps, is: why are Americans so obsessed with America and why do they interpret non-Americans' opinions on art and world affairs in terms of their attitude to the particular country that is the U.S.A.

Everyone does that--we all see things through a particular filter or set of filters dependent on where and how we were brought up, educated, our current circumstances, and our experiences and knowledge base. You do it when discussing things; I do it when discussing things. It's a human thing, i think. (I actually believe that you Europeans are far more nationalistic and prejudiced against your neighbors than we are--with historical reason, usually--and just as quick if not quicker to see things through that filter until proven otherwise.) If there's too much American stuff here, and too many Americans seeing everything through American eyes, then let's have Matt (when and if he next does it) open the memberships again only to foreign IPs or something. The fact is that we have thousands of Americans who belong here--of every conceivable race, creed, color, orientation, affiliation, faith, and experience, from military to activist to student to professor to dropout to journalist to factory worker to mechanic to cubicle drone to CEO to housewife to homeless(or formerly so).....Our diversity is clearly evident to all who actually look and pay attention instead of whining that there are too many Americans seeing things as Americans. Your reductive view on this is as disappointing as Crash's parody of a typical American.

By: _sirmissalot_

_sirmissalot_ — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:54:55 -0800

The real question, perhaps, is: why are Americans so obsessed with America and why do they interpret non-Americans' opinions on art and world affairs in terms of their attitude to the particular country that is the U.S.A.

Is that the real question, though?

From my perspective (an American who has lived abroad--Denmark if you must know--and has travelled all over the globe), what is depressing is how much the world is obsessed with America. Everywhere I go, I'm kissed on one cheek (for my personal charm) and slapped on the other (for my national sins). I'm tired, tired, tired of this schizophrenia. "I hate your country, I love you!" Bullshit.

But let me address your concerns about MetaFilter--and the web. Any democratic community reflects its members, and the internet, if nothing else, is supremeley democratic. Are you asking nature to go against nature? There are always self-obsessed flag-wavers and culturally myopic people wherever you go, in any part of the world. You are getting the American flavor because you're on an American-dominated site. This is not an earth-shattering observation.

Europeans have a more worldly attitude than most because they've been colonizing the rest of us for centuries; Americans are just getting our start, apparently (and to the dread of most of us here). And we all know how broad-minded and kind y'all have been to your neighbors and subjects throughout history. What is America anyway, if not the bastard child of Europe just reaching puberty? And by all forecasts, getting ready to atone for its sins. I feel that you're being willfully ignorant about the whole thing. America is bigger than your stereotypes, and none of us fit any particular bill. If you are angry with history and where this puts us, join the club--don't lash out at your friends. Your broadsides sting, not because they uncover a truth, but because they expose the prejudices of someone I thought was beyond that kind of thing. Only provincial morons and fascists trade in that stuff.

(on preview, I see that I'm just echoing Amberglow. *sigh*)

By: dhoyt

dhoyt — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:17:07 -0800

I'm tired, tired, tired of this schizophrenia. "I hate your country, I love you!" Bullshit.

From the Atlantic:

P. J. O'ROURKE: Back in Lebanon in 1984, I was held at gunpoint by this Hezbollah kid, just a maniac, you know, at one of those checkpoints, screaming at me about America, great Satan, et cetera.

SECRETARY POWELL: Then he wanted a green card?

P. J. O'ROURKE: At the end of this rant, that's exactly what he said: "As soon as I get my green card, I am going to Dearborn, Michigan to study dental school." And he saw no disconnect.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:19:22 -0800

I've given up reading all this thread and will just spew my opinion regardless:

I think MetaFilter is much too much USA centric.

I don't like that Miguel lumped us Canucks in with the USA: he reveals a whopping gap of ignorance when he does so.

I hate how often discussions are US-centric and very shallow. American politics is shamefully shallow and the arguments are frequently simplistic to the point of useless.

I would really like to see more discussions that don't involve American politics, American religion, American money, or American products.

I do think we get a fair dose of international oddities, quirks, games, and silly stuff. And that is very good.

By: rhyax

rhyax — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:36:43 -0800

But I wonder if it would result in desperate Americans chosing their holiday destination based on where they can login and pretend to be foreign from.

ha, if we got your 4 month vacations maybe! :P

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:02:41 -0800

I would also point out that Europeans are more "internationally minded" because the international borders are a hell of a lot closer to them. You're in Italy, you probably care what's going on in Austria and Switzerland and France because they're nearby. I live in Massachusetts, and so I care about what's going on in New Hampshire and New York and Vermont because they're nearby.

Which doesn't mean we shouldn't also focus on areas farther afield, but acting like you can't understand why Americans can't see farther is silly. We probably all have a similar radius of concern, it's just that if you're in the US, that 5- or 50- or 500-mile radius often doesn't get you past America's borders. 1500 miles gets you from Paris to Moscow and across six or seven countries. Go about the same distance from Chicago, and you can almost make it to LA -- not even one country.

By: sebas

sebas — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:02:59 -0800

It is obvious you are all generalising here, all of you!

By: crunchland

crunchland — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:08:23 -0800

Americans should wise up:

As much as this site benefits from the viewpoints of people outside the US, I'd gladly let you all go if it meant we'd see the back of MiguelCardosa. Good riddance.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:10:39 -0800

It is amusing, though, that Miguel's idea of "international" is so Europe-centric

No shit. I've commented once or twice about how lonely I feel here as the "token Arab," which has absolutely nothing to do with where in the world I live, but rather my ethnic identiy. However, I don't drag it into MeTa and point the finger at other people. We've all got our underrepresentation axes to grind. But in Miguel's book, if you're not an expat living in Portugal, you're just another flag-waving, sister-fucking, mayonnaise-sandwich-eating American swine. Ma'leish. Whatever.

I take quite a bit of personal offense at your implications of isolationism, Miguel. Respectfully: fuck you. This site was conceived, programmed, is hosted, and maintained in the US. If you ever did enjoy some "golden age" of international bliss here, you have an American to thank for it in the first place. I'm not pounding the national chest here, I'm just pointing out the basic idiocy of posting your accusations of isolationism on an American-run site. Perhaps things are changing here, but to attribute it to isolationist malice on the part of the American membership is rude, bigoted, and seriously lazy.

My post, however, was presented as a definite insight: MeFi is becoming self-inclusive and local. How many British and European members have stopped posting? Lots. So the feeling remains: perhaps you'd like it all to yourselves?

"Definite insight" my ass. Try whining feat of self-victimization Maybe you should ask some of those who've left why they've left? Perhaps it was a lack of overlapping interests with the mostly American membership here. Perhaps they no longer related. But as has been pointed out repeatedly, you've offered no evidence that Americans are doing anything to make them leave. I'd call that "definite out-of-ass generalization."

Most importantly, I'd ask you this: why do you feel you have more in common with the folks in the UK than the Americans? Could it be that you yourself have fallen into a US vs. Rest-of-World mentality? Isn't that a little destructive? Bigoted? Why aren't you advocating for more Portugese members? All you seem to want is more people who *aren't* American.

As TGC pointed out, there's a fair amount of attrition here anyway, and tons of Americans leave as well. Perhaps the site can afford to lose fewer of the internationals, but again, you're just upset with the fact that there are fewer of them to begin with. If you want to start a site to attract and cultivate them better, you have my permission to leave.

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:48:57 -0800

Keeping it real here reprazentin for São Tome and Principe shout outs to mah Tajik homies.

By: kenko

kenko — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:51:15 -0800

This thread is the payback for not having any MeTa at all on the 14th.

By: dhoyt

dhoyt — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:54:29 -0800

Is someone cooking a Portuguese dish? I smell burning.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:09:28 -0800

THERE'S FAR TOO MUCH SHIT HERE TO READ THROUGH, LET ME JUST YELL THAT MIGGY NOT GROKKING "WE HAVE PEOPLE" TO MEAN "METAFILTER HAS MEMBERS" IS A SURE SIGN THAT:
A) HE'S DRUBK
OR
B) THIS IS HIS BEST TROLL EVAR.

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:12:09 -0800

WE HAVE CAMERAS

By: cmonkey

cmonkey — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:14:54 -0800

Y'know, seriously, it's just the Internet.

Relax.

By: trharlan

trharlan — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:16:42 -0800

Has anyone seen my wallet? I thought I left it on the dresser.

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:18:47 -0800

yeah, it's just an UNIVERSAL NETWORK OF SUPERINTELLIGENT ROBOT SLAVES

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:24:05 -0800

WE HAVE CAMERAS

No you don't, remember?

...

There's possibly an appropriate manner in which to publicly discuss within a community that one is unhappy with it and considering leaving. But I've never seen it happen. Every example I've ever seen is the equivalent of a pubescent, sulky "I'm taking my peppermint schnapps and going home" bid for attention. And, you know, the party's always funner when that kid leaves. Buh-bye.

By: scody

scody — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:28:31 -0800

Of my eight front-page posts, six have been either partially or entirely about European culture or art, which apparently makes me an insular, hillbilly redneck. Fascinating! Also, I am thin, but I eagerly await being told that I am actually fat.

I've commented once or twice about how lonely I feel here as the "token Arab," which has absolutely nothing to do with where in the world I live, but rather my ethnic identity.

If it helps, scarabic, I have sort of a Mefi-crush on you.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:37:15 -0800

And, you know, the party's always funner when that kid leaves. Buh-bye.

*hands eBlight schnapps, points toward home*

By: ook

ook — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:37:52 -0800

How many British and European members have stopped posting? Lots.

Who?

By: bob sarabia

bob sarabia — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:40:20 -0800

man I hate it when I miss everything

By: y2karl

y2karl — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:41:28 -0800

Stay or don't stay as you wish but I hope it's the former.

I'm with vacapinta on this.

*hands eBlight schnapps, points toward home*

I'm with quonsar on this. In spades.

By: DaShiv

DaShiv — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:45:31 -0800

If it helps, scarabic, I have sort of a Mefi-crush on you.

Mefi-crush? Be more assertive, scody, and get Mefi-laid. :)

/me hands scarabic a tee-shirt that says "DaShiv is my pimp."

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:52:12 -0800

[hits up DaddyShiv for $20, buys Ebligh a pint, pulls up a stool]

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:08:11 -0800

*blows q and karl kisses*

Thanks, scarabic. Next one's on me.

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:14:39 -0800

101 ways members view their Meta-Filter.

96. Poster
97. Lurker
98. Poster
99. Re-lurker
100. Posts
101. Profits?

Mig, I tease - because your last Meta-Talk post may answer this one.

By: philfromhavelock

philfromhavelock — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:37:34 -0800

>There is a distinct difference between:
>1) America the government
>2) America the swaggering "We're #1" mentality
>3) Americans as individuals

4) America the media.
An imperfect example, 1 February 2003: seven teenagers dying in a skiing accident had less air play than the seven astronauts.

>Am I the only person freaked out when people use the word Wog to mean Italian.

>They original recorded as 'Blue Velvets' and then 'Gollywogs' (because it 'sounded British').

>Peeing on your own foot? *looks doubtful*
>OK, man, I'll give it a go....
This happens in a James Kelman story, albeit with accidentality, not intentionality, that happens to be "...warm and surprisingly pleasant."

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:45:27 -0800

What? 150 comments and no orgy yet? I'll check back later.

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:52:22 -0800

Yeah, MeFi is too filled with American politics. No, they aren't as important as all that (and certainly no more important than say, Chinese or Indian politics right now).

But this is a consequence of network effects, not policy. The site is never going to turn into NewZealandFilter (as if I would want that) because holloway and cara and meech and johnshaft and I would have to post every day.

Matt could sign up a 100 geographically representative members a day for the rest of the year and the site would still tilt towards the US, by virtue of anglophony and a plurality of Americans.

It's churlish to chastise a largely American membership for posting about things that are most salient to them, and it's human nature that they will be worried about their little election.

The rest of us could be a little bolder about injecting local stuff and give the poor Americans a diversion.

By: y6y6y6

y6y6y6 — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:01:21 -0800

"It's not a question of where one's from - it's a question of focus or viewpoint"

No. It's not. It's 5000 people in a community forum where the stated goal is linking to "the best of the web". 5000 people link to stuff they found interesting. And then 5000 people comment about it.

This isn't a newspaper with an editorial policy. It has no ambition or need to be fair and balanced. It's 5000 people talking all at once. And your complaint is that they're not bring up topics they know anything about.

Trying to throw a foul flag over focus and viewpoint is asinine. You don't get it. Please don't mistake the volume of your blathering as proof you understand MetaFilter. You don't.

And, BTW, I just read an article disproving the notion that wine tastes better in Riedel glasses. It was all a scam. I thought the author did an excellent job of debunking the silliness, right down the line.

By: scody

scody — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:03:17 -0800

Mefi-crush? Be more assertive, scody, and get Mefi-laid.

Oh, I was trying! ;)

By: trharlan

trharlan — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:12:34 -0800

just read an article disproving the notion that wine tastes better in Riedel glasses.

link, y6y6y6?

By: biffa

biffa — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:15:22 -0800

If we could get one small thing out of this, could it be that people think about their use of the phrase "this country..." (and the like) and consider that not everyone is in that country and that in a number of circumstances that it can to limit the debate to the American case (that generally being the country in question), even where the debate had been more general/open up to that point. I told somebody off for this recently but can't find it on a search.

By: t r a c y

t r a c y — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:15:57 -0800

I resent the implication that Canada and the U.S. are somehow similar places to live, or that the fact that's it's U.S. centric is somehow better for Canadians than you crazy and "curious" europeans

colour me a tad resentful as well. canadians are... oh, just refer to EB's comment, he took the words right out of my keyboard. except for the part about not liking you, and telling you to leave. miguel, why can't you just post more often and help balance out the overwhelming american-centric content...? i assume you've been busy with work, but when you do drop by can't you participate instead of complain and insult...? i'm hopeful things will be better once the election is over and we give the winners a few weeks to gloat.

Within the last 6 weeks I've made posts related to Japan, Ireland, Afghanistan, India, China, Columbia, and Antarctica.

*swoons, adds homunculus to contact list*

I'm expecting a year of analyzing the results followed by three years of escalating hysteria about the upcoming 2008 election.

*cries, bangs head on desk*

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:22:40 -0800

Yeah, MeFi is too filled with American politics. No, they aren't as important as all that (and certainly no more important than say, Chinese or Indian politics right now).

Many Americans agree with you on this. I spend a fair amount of time decrying newsfilter and politicsfilter here, routinely, as does Ebligh. And he's a fucking Texan, even!

[sic]

By: meech

meech — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:31:11 -0800

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:36:27 -0800

Hey Miguel, I've heard that you're one of those "foreigners" - you know, people from elsewhere than here - and that you people have special and perhaps supernatural abilities : like, you know, speaking more languages than just English and maybe having more and better sex. Perhaps it's the strong cheeses, the garlic, and the red wine?

That could be so. But, just in case, can I touch your hair for luck?

By: mookieproof

mookieproof — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:40:13 -0800

If it helps, scarabic, I have sort of a Mefi-crush on you.

that guy is no iconomy!

By: madamjujujive

madamjujujive — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:41:18 -0800

ah, migs, you know I do love you, but this is not your finest hour. Is everything ok with you? I hope there is nothing more serious amiss that is making you lump your many fans and friends into one unflattering molten mass of hillbilliedom. (Although I did always rather like those fetching little outfits.)

OK, I think some of us perhaps could do with a hint that we should be more sensitive to the global perspective here on mefi, but next time you might remind us with a love bite instead of a sock in the jaw ;-)

And I like the way you blame this all on those of us from the states. Hah. We are being the natural-born mouthy boors that we are. But just look at this thread...oh sure, now all the world citizens are sneaking out and throwing sand in our faces! Where y'all been before Migs started yelling at us, huh you little global lurkers? Dammit, I can't even pick you out from this crowd half the time, most of you are acting too damn U.S-ish - can't y'all start acting more, um, foreign??? Be more ethnic and interesting, or something -- and post some local links so migs stops yelling at us. Dammit.

By: fold_and_mutilate

fold_and_mutilate — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:45:02 -0800

Please stick around, and do post more, Miguel. This place would be better with many more posts and much more commentary from our European and international friends.

By: Stynxno

Stynxno — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:47:57 -0800

what a bunch of wankers.

By: konolia

konolia — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:08:52 -0800

Miguel, you sound depressed.

I have been worried about you lately as I don't see you posting anymore, now this. Put down the drinkies and go see the doctor!

Perhaps it is due to the upcoming elections - but just how important are they? I'd say not much

Wrong. Because whoever gets elected not only has an influence on us, but on a lot of the rest of the world. YOu know it's true. Just ask Saddam if you don't believe me.

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:21:18 -0800

If we could get one small thing out of this, could it be that people think about their use of the phrase "this country..." (and the like) and consider that not everyone is in that country.

Amen.

(Although sometimes I like to say that, and then post something that is clearly inconsistent with my being American, and see if anyone notices. Which they routinely don't. *sigh*)

By: soundofsuburbia

soundofsuburbia — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:21:57 -0800

most of you are acting too damn U.S-ish - can't y'all start acting more, um, foreign???

madamjujujive, välkommen till min hemsida ! Kysser dig !!!!!! Jag gillar musik och jag har många instrument i mitt hem som jag kan spela på.

;)

By: kenko

kenko — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:30:29 -0800

I watched the second season of Twin Peaks on downloaded rips that had Swedish subtitles. People were always prating at each other; it was great.

That's all.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:41:56 -0800

Eu desejo que você removeria a vara de seu burro, Miguel. ; >

By: stbalbach

stbalbach — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:42:25 -0800

MetaFilter is a place to post interesting things.

I don't worry about the other stuff it takes care of itself.

By: kenko

kenko — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:43:06 -0800

Miguel has a burro? This changes my mental picture of him entirely.

By: madamjujujive

madamjujujive — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:48:53 -0800

Yes, soundsofsuburbia, that's the stuff! And here you were masquerading around with "suburbia" in your name all this time, fooling us all into thinking you were from New Jersey or something. Hah!

OK, I got the "music" part, now excuse me for a few months while I go study Swedish. Oh, Herregud! Jag har en yxa i huvudet! ;-)

By: dash_slot-

dash_slot- — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:50:28 -0800

So - this 'Conservatism':

It's American, right?

Hotdogs at my flat* - 3.00 - 4.00pm, each and every day!

Uh, you guys would call this an a-part-ment.

By: soundofsuburbia

soundofsuburbia — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:54:46 -0800

madamjujujive: Haha! "Jag har en yxa i huvudet" is all the swedish you need to know, actually.

I'll save you the trouble, those sentences are just translations of some of Mahir's proclamations. ;)

By: wendell

wendell — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:09:33 -0800

I did always rather like those fetching little outfits.
Speaking of Mefi-crushes, just thinking of madamjujujive in a Daisy Mae Yokum outfit made me vewy vewy happy... until I remembered the "Daisy May" who terrorized MonkeyFilter recently. I am such a Schmoo.

And your "a-part-ment", dash_slot-? Are you eating Doritos right now?

By: crush-onastick

crush-onastick — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:14:40 -0800

just read an article disproving the notion that wine tastes better in Riedel glasses.

link, y6y6y6?

yes, link please!

By: Wulfgar!

Wulfgar! — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:21:09 -0800

Wrong. Because whoever gets elected not only has an influence on us, but on a lot of the rest of the world. YOu know it's true. Just ask Saddam if you don't believe me.

konolia, please. I would argue that the very attitude which leads to such arrogant bravado (We'll kick your terrist ass, anytime, anywhere!!!!!1!!!) is precisely what has Mig's shorts in a knot. Personally, I think Miguel had a bad moment of frustration and expressed it. End of story. We've had our fun and our calls for Mr. Cardoso to seek professional help ... and it hasn't mattered one whit to the future of Mefi, or its past.

There is plenty of content here that exists, sans nationalist ego. This post strikes me more as a cry for other-than-Amurcan nationalist ego far more than it does a call for a removal of nationalist interest from posting. Guess what, kids, not ... going ... to happen. People here have a frame of reference that they will call on while posting. Good, bad or otherwise, it will creep (or slam) in every now and then. To call for a broader scope in such a narrow scope manner won't change ... anything. You can't reframe people's point of reference.

Unless this is simply a new incarnation of correct-speechessness; in which case, I say screw this noise. I for one am not going to comment with concern for the possibly damaged feels of the lone member of Mefi from Liechtenstein. Sorry, not gonna do it.

By: i_cola

i_cola — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:21:42 -0800

Holy crap. I went out all weekend, got totally boxless and missed all of this?!?

There is a god...

By: Dennis Murphy

Dennis Murphy — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:34:56 -0800

Americans should wise up: the U.S.A. is not that important in the world. Most of the world lives happily without it. Also, Americans should understand how isolated they are from the world and try to make contact with fellow human beings, lest they fester in their own delusions.

Best troll ever.

And when foldy is begging you to stay, you know you've crossed the line from eccentric to completely nuts.

By: dash_slot-

dash_slot- — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:35:39 -0800

Wulfgar!: thank you. I resisted. You put it a lot more succinctly - and politely - than I would have done.

wendell: seriously - what???? Read *some* of that link - what are you trying to say??? Am in my dressing gown, if that's not TOO much info...

By: y6y6y6

y6y6y6 — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:39:46 -0800

"link, y6y6y6?"

It was in Gourmet Magazine. No on-line version of the story. Sorry. It's the one with the big jelly jar.

"SHATTERED MYTHS By Daniel Zwerdling
These days, experts say we should use a different glass for every type of wine we drink. Scientists who looked into the matter came up with some surprising conclusions."

The author does a good job of going back to original sources and finding out that the studies which supposedly supported Reidel actually showed the opposite.

By: Turtle

Turtle — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:58:39 -0800

Miguel's post is a nice example of what we in France call "spitting in the soup" (cracher dans la soupe). Hey, maybe in some cases the momentary unpleasantness improves the dish in the end.

Coincidentally, that very expression ends this this amusing article about a French woman who just wrote a book about strategies for slacking off at work (French), which got her in a bit of trouble with her employer, the oh-so-stodgy state electricity company.

If anyone is still reading: the thought had crossed my mind to make something like the above paragraph a FPP, but I didn't dare (it would have been my first). After this talk of affirmative action for internationals, I might feel bolder. Would it have been worthy? *cringe* On second thought, probably not, since it's really just a link to a Times article. Oh well. I'll keep trying.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:00:22 -0800

If we could get one small thing out of this, could it be that people think about their use of the phrase "this country..." (and the like) and consider that not everyone is in that country.

Okay, I'll be sure to say "United States Federal income tax" in my next AskMe post. I thought that having a US address on my userpage might count for something, there.

By: _sirmissalot_

_sirmissalot_ — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:04:21 -0800

If anyone is still reading: the thought had crossed my mind to make something like the above paragraph a FPP, but I didn't dare (it would have been my first). After this talk of affirmative action for internationals, I might feel bolder. Would it have been worthy? *cringe*

you're kidding, right? it was on the front page yesterday.

By: Quartermass

Quartermass — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:24:47 -0800

If we could get one small thing out of this, could it be that people think about their use of the phrase "this country..." (and the like) and consider that not everyone is in that country

biffa hits it on the head. I understand the American bias for posts - I don't like it, but I understand it. At least if people were more aware that not everyone here is an American, and think about that when they are posting the umpteeth George W Bush commentary, we would all be better off for it.

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:38:00 -0800

scarabic, I don't want to check people's user pages for geographical references unless I'm snooping. They're not always useful either. When romakimmy or andrewcooke say "my country" it's pretty ambiguous.

In the case in point, yeah, it was kind of obvious. But it was AskMe, the word "Federal" was a giveaway, and (full snark mode enabled) who else but an American would assume that they didn't have to specify which tax system they were talking about?

Maybe it's like stamps, where the UK doesn't have to put the country on the stamp because they invented them. Or like the US not needing a separate top level domain.

This is like a little case study in cultural imperialism.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:41:28 -0800

Look, I just said I was wrong, okay?

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:48:06 -0800

But, in fairness, please note that the thread was entirely unhampered by my omission, so perhaps I really *don't* have to specify anything. I'm too lazy to say "US," and you're too lazy to check my userpage, so let's just embrace one another in our laziness, chalk it up to a lesson learned, and call it a day.

By: fold_and_mutilate

fold_and_mutilate — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:59:41 -0800

Oh, DennisMurphy, did I hurt your sensitive little feelings sometime in the past....or did you just not learn with the rest of the boys and girls that childish insults about being "nuts" went out in grade school?

Oh wait....this is the thread where somebody expressing their opinion is merely dismissed by some as "drunk" or "depressed".

Carry on, gutlessly. It's what some of you do best.

By: Quartermass

Quartermass — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:01:54 -0800

Scarabic, I wasn't trying to insult you personally, so don't take it as such. It was just one example of many. The point is the assumption (right or not) that one could ask such a question without qualifying it.

As for Mr. spleen and his snark mode: US isn't the only country in the world with a federalist system, further making my point.

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:16:21 -0800

my apologies scarabic, i misread your comment as meaning the complete opposite. we present our compliments and look forward to restoring cordial relations between our two accounts from this hour.

By: Turtle

Turtle — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:20:26 -0800

> you're kidding, right? it was on the front page yesterday.

Ooh, I'd missed it. I guess I could have posted it after all when I thought of it...

Just to try to save that mention from complete ridicule and get back on topic, it does point to the difficulty of having international content in Metafilter. The woman's novel came out some time ago in France, but it wasn't until the New York Times wrote this (pretty funny) article that it became "newsworthy", linkable, and communicable to a non-French-speaking group.

Let's face it: English and the United States are the world's (lowest? highest?) common denominator. Everybody in the entire world knows who Clinton, Monica, Bush, Kerry, Michael Jackson, Michael Moore, Schwarzenegger, Kobe Bryant, blablabla are. The US is now the country closest and most familiar to every single other country in the world. So even if we banned all Americans from Metafilter, the chances are American topics would still rule (though maybe not in quite the same way).

By: eustacescrubb

eustacescrubb — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:33:49 -0800

Either way, MeFi has changed (for the worst!).

How many times have I read that (or something like it) since I joined?

It's me, isn't it? Do I smell that bad? Or is it all the Dizzie Rascal I keep playing at loud volume?

By: MiguelCardoso

MiguelCardoso — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:48:52 -0800

But don't you find it slightly strange that when a self-confessed admirer of America, someone who actually likes almost all the Americans he's met, in real life and here, shares the opinion that the board we share seems to focus exclusively on the U.S. and that this is limiting and really not fruitful, he should be judged drunk, depressed or trolling?

Why be so defensive? Even the lefties sound like George Bush or Mussolini - "either you're with us or you're against us". This is not how human beings feel. All this is is a warning (probably wrong) that we've lately become too parochial. Some say MetaFilter is mainly composed of Americans - so what? Can't they be interested in the world? Can't they forget, for a minute, they're American? Aren't there more interesting things to discuss? Why in the hell should Americans be obsessed with America? Of all the world's contradictions and contests, believe me: the one between Bush and Kerry is the least serious. The world is seething - seething with art; seething with politics. Seething with incompatibilities. Whether a slightly more liberal and intelligent rich guy is to become President of the U.S., rather than another, isn't really that interesting.

Honestly, sometimes it feels as if your independence was yesterday and you're still justifying it to the world. I love America - and for over 20 years I've publicly defended the Atlantic alliance, as a writer, editor and columnist - but surely there's far too much America on MetaFilter right now. Not in the topics and links - but in the manner of discussion. Everyone seems to be already convinced, defending their position, closed to debate and enlightenment.

It's not about Europe or Asia or whatever - it's about looking beyond your own back yard. I'm Portuguese but I also read American, British, French and Spanish newspapers and magazines; watch films and read books from all over the world . This is not a threat: the more I open myself up, the more I appreciate old friends.

The danger of isolationism, imho - and also in the opinion of a lot of people since proved right - is real.

And, no I'm not drunk or depressed and I do love my MetaFilter to death. But isn't it becoming, like that bothersome toenail in Fifties novels, slightly ingrown?

I think so. So, as in that lovely Frank Loesser song, "sue me!" :)

By: amberglow

amberglow — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:55:10 -0800

So fix it then, Miguel. You haven't posted in a while--go to it. I want to see one post a day about an broadly international or foreign subject, to your usual standards. Starting.....................................now. : >

By: amberglow

amberglow — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:56:41 -0800

(and you're kinda saying we're currently incapable of it anyway, so the future of the site rests on your broad shoulders. Oh, how was that babelfish translation?)

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:58:28 -0800

1/4mass and spleen'o'joe: no offense taken. It was a fair example and I will renew my efforts to stay aware.

We studied a concept called "the unmarked category" at great length in college. Basically, it's analagous to asking a white person what their race is, and getting a blank look in return, as if "white = regular" instead of "white = european." This is one tool whereby a hegemony perpetuates itself: oddly enough, by erasing itself. "The best trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." Etc.

While the American hegemony on MetaFilter may be incidental and mostly benign, it does have its perils. I think all of us value national diversity here, and I for one will try to express that more, even in my choice of words, etc.

Migs: 'blah blah blah' back atcha. Unfortunately, characterizing yourself as a man of the world with nothing but love for all jibes not one bit with the things you've said above; they clearly demonstrate otherwise. Misplaced magnanimity and even more self-obsession... an entirely pathetic response.

By: batgrlHG

batgrlHG — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:04:23 -0800

Let's see, Migs basically called all Americans hillbillies and rednecks.
Let's pause a moment and think of what others might have said had someone called a group of Africans, South Americans, Tasmanians, Asians, etc. a similarly unflattering name, lumping the whole of the country into one ugly generalization.
I'm amazed the Canadians were so polite in their ire.

Migs I always did think your ego was larger than your intellect. I had decided I was wrong, mostly swayed by how much faith so many others had in your entertainment value. Now I'm rethinking it.
And meanwhile you should rethink your attitude. While you came off as an elitist, Eurocentric snob many American based MeFites came forward to ask what was up with you, were you ok.
Sadly I'm chalking this up to yet another "It's All About ME!" MetaTalk Miguel Fest, and assuming you had no real desire to foster more links to international sites.

If you knew anything about America you should know there are large numbers of us here that are constantly complaining about its many many flaws, pointing them out, not letting our politicians forget them. At the same time it's completely fine to dis your own gang - someone from outside the block tries it and they get pummeled. We Southerners are always ragging on our flaws - and a good thing, as there are plenty of them and many changes needed.

I'm also wondering WTF over calls for "let's let in only new members who represent the international community." Does it seem fair to make the thundering hoards (that everyone always nitters on about, saying they are pining away for entrance like unrequited lovers) wait and only let in some based on nationality? I mean, I'm all for less Americanism around here - but I'm also for less Western and Eurocentric links as well. Doesn't mean I'm gonna advocate the idea of not letting in anyone from this country because we assume that people who live outside of it will post better international links. Heck, I don't even think Migs wins the Best International Links trophy.
Unless after this tirade he decides to get in there with some posting and show us all how it's done.

By: _sirmissalot_

_sirmissalot_ — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:14:44 -0800

oi vey

By: quonsar

quonsar — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:20:35 -0800

200 comments. miguel wins.

By: scody

scody — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:22:22 -0800

Can't they be interested in the world? Can't they forget, for a minute, they're American? Aren't there more interesting things to discuss? Why in the hell should Americans be obsessed with America?

Migs, what at least some of the USians here (myself included) are objecting to is this sweeping statement that we -- as a whole! -- aren't interested in the world and don't believe that there are more interesting things to discuss -- no, not even for a minute! Look, I swear to god, I'm the first person in this country (that is: the US) who rants and raves about US tourists abroad who demand to eat at McDonalds, and our current "Big Dog" bully-boy tactics that passes for a foreign policy, and Olympic TV coverage in which Bob fricken' Costas' only comment when announcing Djibouti during the Opening Ceremonies the other night is to crack "heh, Djibouti? You bet'cher booty"! We do exist. Really we do.

But more to the point, I consider myself one of many MeFi USians who have shown a clear and demonstrable interest in the world outside our borders through our posts, comments, travels, languages, etc. Again, not to turn this into The Scody Show (though you may all get your tickets at a discount if you hurry!), but 75% of my posts have dealt exclusively with European art and culture. (And -- ahem -- I could be wrong, but I don't believe you've ever dropped by even one of those threads to comment.) Or look at members who have far more posts than I -- Madamjujujive, for example, or Languagehat. Can you say with a straight face that they're "obsessed with America"? Seriously?

I sympathize deeply with your weariness with the goddamned NewsFilter/BushFilter/ElectionFilter posts. But they're not showing up because every single one of the 250,000,000 people in the U.S. is a hostile hillbilly redneck isolationist. Dinars for donuts says that if MeFi were based in Britain (say), instead of the daily BushFilter we'd get the daily BlairFilter. Would that automatically mean that Andrewcooke (for example) was really, at heart, just an imperialist Colonel Blimp pufftoad?

By: DaShiv

DaShiv — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:25:56 -0800

I still don't get it. Lots of people here have already railed against the whole Bushfilter phenomenon without dragging your so-called "American parochialism" into the discussion. It smells completely like a red herring to me. Yes, posts about politics generally suck, but so what? Does American politics suck more than (fill in another country here)'s politics? Next you'll be telling us that American shit smells worse, too, just because there's a lot of Americans here pumping it out.

As for how parochial Americans are, I'll believe it when the rest of the world stops lapping up our cultural detritus, everything from Jerry Springer and Ricki Lake to Michael Jackson and David Hasselhoff. When Bollywood displaces Hollywood from Portugal to Japan and kids all over the world forget American names like "Michael Jordan" and "Tiger Woods", I'll be more inclined to agree with you. Until then, the question to me remains why is the rest of the world so absorbed with American culture (and this pre-dates globalism and multinationals). Oh, I'm not taking a bite of your herring, thanks.

Why in the hell should Americans be obsessed with America? Of all the world's contradictions and contests, believe me: the one between Bush and Kerry is the least serious. The world is seething - seething with art; seething with politics. Seething with incompatibilities. Whether a slightly more liberal and intelligent rich guy is to become President of the U.S., rather than another, isn't really that interesting.

Drop that first sentence, and you have your standard anti-Bushfilter rant. That first part is... fishy.

By: batgrlHG

batgrlHG — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:27:01 -0800

Massive points for working pufftoad into the conversation.
And quonsar - stop being right, dammit.

By: scody

scody — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:27:18 -0800

End of my penultimate paragraph: "Or look at members..." should, of course, read "or look at US members..." And yes, I realize that that sounds potentially dirty. Carry on.

By: beth

beth — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:27:24 -0800

I don't get how it's somehow oppressive for the idea that because the user population is 95% American that when someone posts about "my country" or "taxes" that the reasonable thing to assume is that they are referring to America.

I mean... duh. Law of averages, and all.

It simply makes sense for an American to not have to bother to mention that they are American and referring to America. Because that's what's being done the overwhelmingly huge majority of the time - it causes you physical pain to assume this or something?

And it also simply makes sense that for someone else referring to "my country" or "taxes" or whatever that has a country-specific meaning to specify what country it is, if it is *not* America.

People, it is *not* meant personally! I just don't get what's so terrible about it.

If I was on a site where 95% of the people were from Chile, I sure as hell wouldn't get my panties in a wad about them being Chile-centric. I'd think it's only natural, and to be expected. I wouldn't whine about it "oh poor me, how *dare* they assume I know what country they are talking about?! Why is it always Chile, Chile, Chile! Those myopic bastards!!!"

Grow up, people. I'm all for more international links and members and all that happy global village stuff (and people who want more of that stuff should post more of it), but the whiny attitude is just preposterous.

By: arse_hat

arse_hat — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:32:46 -0800

BatgrlHG "I'm amazed the Canadians were so polite in their ire"

It's not surprising. We are (yes I DO speak for all of us) a very polite people.

(Just don't turn your back on us during the full moon when we shed our human skins, snort lines of dryer lint and eat the flesh of those suckered by our bland façade.)

By: Stynxno

Stynxno — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:33:10 -0800

I read magazines from Alberia, Carnelia , Costa Diablo, Imaya, Isla Suerto, and Maura just to name a few.

Listen, if you're upset about a community weblog where 90% of the users are based in the US, then either leave or try your best to bring the world to you. Some of us aren't worldly but that doesn't mean that we would be interested if someone actually talked about the rest of the world. The US is only 300 million strong. There are 6 billion other people in the world. There has got to be a few good non US-centric stories out there.

By: DaShiv

DaShiv — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:35:40 -0800

Argh. Remind me not to have the misfortune again of finishing a post right after scody posts, so that mine won't be relegated to being a tepid reflection of hers--sans Djibouti and pufftoad. Seriously. It's like trying to outsnark quonsar.

By: BlueTrain

BlueTrain — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:36:06 -0800

Let's not forget that Miguel is here to educate the poor, huddled masses he calls "Americans".

He is correct, of course, in that we're far too US-centric. Unfortunately, the occurrences of our election and the rather controvertial president we currently have are apparently such important events that this site needs hourly reminders of their existence. Beyond that, because this site is primarily made up of Americans, everyone here is a political expert who must be heard.

He is correct, of course, that this site needs a more healthy dose of international culture, economy, and politics, as well as freaky flash fun from overseas, but because this site is closed and to the best of my knowledge no one here has actually learned anything (since we're all so busy spouting our expert opinions about every assinine subject known to man), we're stuck with the same characters spouting the same agenda day after day.

He is correct, of course, that we're obsessed with ourselves. The same in-jokes, the same pathetic one-liners, the same rivalries, the same agendas, the same people. What more could be expected, really? Very few here have actually admitted to changing their minds because of a thread. Very few have ever changed their personas, including Miguel.

But from what I've found, adults rarely change their behavior drastically, which is what Miguel is calling for. Whenever I'm surrounded by teenagers, I'm reminded that when I was their age my values, beliefs, and ideas changed drastically every 6 months. As I grow older, I rarely change in a profound manner, and when I do, it only becomes clear after an extremely long period of time, with an enormous amount of hindsight.

Changing little quirks here at MeFi is easy, because it requires very little effort. Banning newsfilter for a day, deciding to use (MI) instead of clogging up the main page, attempting to tone down extreme anti-social behavior...these are all fairly easy changes that can be made (but you'll notice that they only last for a short period of time). But Miguel, unfortunately, though I agree with your sentiment, your request is falling upon deaf ears, who aren't willing to put in the work necessary to make this site more international. Quite frankly, most here aren't even willing to tone down the rampant political bickering, though they've been told by the site admin. that it's detrimental to the health of this site.

Forgive the length.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:38:32 -0800

I sympathize deeply with your weariness with the goddamned NewsFilter/BushFilter/ElectionFilter posts.

Hear, hear! You don't have to be loving life on the southern tip of Europe to be tired of that crap. I think Miguel really meant to send a nasty email to PostRoad, and just hit the wrong button.

As for how parochial Americans are, I'll believe it when the rest of the world stops lapping up our cultural detritus

oh... SNAP! That's gotta hurt!

By: batgrlHG

batgrlHG — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:40:45 -0800

DaShiv - Sorry! Meanwhile you get points for mentioning Jerry Springer, Ricki Lake, Michael Jackson,David Hasselhoff and herring all in one comment. Higher points - if somehow all the aforementioned were beating Hasselhoff with said herrings.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:44:27 -0800

He is correct, of course, that this site needs a more healthy dose of international culture, economy, and politics

Um, that is, he would have been correct if that were what he'd said. Miguel has skirted simple, obvious truths in favor of picking a fight with an entire continent from a safe distance.

Let's not attibute all truths relating to the national character of this site to Miguel's own mouth, simply because he's broached the subject here. If anything, he's given it the worst treatment any of us has ever seen, and worlds less than it deserves. Apparently, he believes he can do no wrong on this subject, sincehis feet are planted, unequivocally, on other soil (in more ways than one if you ask me).

By: PrinceValium

PrinceValium — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:51:24 -0800

Migs, your view that the U.S. election is about "[w]hether a slightly more liberal and intelligent rich guy is to become President of the U.S., rather than another" is absurd and, frankly, ignorant. You don't have to care who wins - the dirty bombs and hijacked airplanes are unlikely to reach Lisbon - but we do. To create a true international community, you need to accept that people care about things that you don't care about. And vice versa.

By: namespan

namespan — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:59:57 -0800

What? 150 comments and no orgy yet? I'll check back later.

No, but there's a playful tackle over on aisle 35002.

By: namespan

namespan — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:00:17 -0800

Also, I saw a robin today.

By: MiguelCardoso

MiguelCardoso — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:14:32 -0800

To create a true international community, you need to accept that people care about things that you don't care about. And vice versa.

This is very well said and very true. Also, I have to admit, due to the persuasiveness of my opponents, that quite probably I was wrong and that the problem I detected, so to speak, was probably more human than American.

I stand corrected and humbled - honestly. Thanks for proving me wrong. Though you must admit-...babble babble fecking Kerry and Bush... MetaFilter's agenda has lately ressembled a very parochial preoccupation.

I'd say, for instance, that the most important international question nowadays was Turkey. As regards the EU and the U.S. Would anyone here say it was dutifully debated?

But, yes, I recant. It was only a worry; a fear. You've all reassured me. Thank you!

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:35:55 -0800

You're welcome. How about "I'm sorry," while you're at it? You directed some fairly insulting accusations at a broad category of people, and I hope, if you can manage a redaction, that you're not above a polite apology in addition to your suave surrender. I don't want to humiliate you or anything, but please make no mistake. I haven't been "reassuring" you so much as utterly rejecting some evil crap you've been spouting. I can't speak for others on that count. I think I can speak for many in that I'm glad you figured it out, but this hasn't just been taking place in your head, you know.

Come on, Migs. It's orgy time. Say you're sorry so we can get fucking.

By: MiguelCardoso

MiguelCardoso — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:38:44 -0800

I'm sorry.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:42:47 -0800

Booyakasha! All is forgotten. Welcome back to the fold!

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:52:04 -0800

the user population is 95% American
overwhelmingly huge majority
oppressive

According to a possibly wholly inaccurate survey, more like 70%. (Certainly that accords with my intuition. ) And that's about the point where the Brazilians really pissed off the English-speakers on Orkut, for example.

So it isn't "the overwhelmingly huge majority of the time", and it isn't a safe assumption. The presumption that American context rules by default is a minor irritant in the grand scheme of things, but it's an irritant nonetheless.

It's not oppressive, it's just thoughtless and par for the course.

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:02:51 -0800

NOW will there be an orgy?

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:06:03 -0800

If you and I can lock ourselves in a nice 69, Krrrlson, anything is possible.

[gives that look]

By: DaShiv

DaShiv — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:12:59 -0800

[dons pimp suit, puffs on a blunt, taps walking stick impatiently]

By: _sirmissalot_

_sirmissalot_ — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:15:48 -0800

Does anyone else feel like they've just found out that they've been starring in a humiliating Portuguese game show?

no?

By: dhoyt

dhoyt — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:22:58 -0800

If you and I can lock ourselves in a nice 69, Krrrlson, anything is possible.

The consensus on 69, which I've gleaned entirely from women's fashion magazines, is that it's t0tally overrrated.

/I was at the dentist's office today and there was a Mademoiselle sitting out. By the way, if anyone wants to know the "Top Ten Things that Will Drive Him Batshit Crazy in Bed", email me; I think I still have them memorized

By: mr.marx

mr.marx — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:50:59 -0800

The consensus on 69, which I've gleaned entirely from women's fashion magazines, is that it's t0tally overrrated.

I hear the Helicopter Fuck is where it's at nowadays.

By: Keyser Soze

Keyser Soze — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:14:56 -0800

I think the Kerry/Bush flood is prevalent because this is ending up to be one of the most significant presidential elections in recent history, impacting not only America(r) but its international relations.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:17:01 -0800

So, dhoyt, man, like, kick, uh, down, the, um, 15, dude.

this is ending up to be one of the most significant presidential elections in recent history

Huh? There has been no election, just canpaigning. How has the campaigning affected America and its international relations, exactly?

By: quonsar

quonsar — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:33:54 -0800

I hear the Helicopter Fuck is where it's at nowadays.

whappa-whappa-whappa?

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:36:42 -0800

If you and I can lock ourselves in a nice 69, Krrrlson, anything is possible.

I'll do it if it's for world peace. Which, of course, could be attained if everyone followed suit (and think of the solution to the overpopulation crisis as a bonus).

"Top Ten Things that Will Drive Him Batshit Crazy in Bed"

Is one of them batshit?

By: mr.marx

mr.marx — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:20:22 -0800

whappa-whappa-whappa?

Sort of. (NSFW)

By: johnny7

johnny7 — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:35:52 -0800

Jeez you're a stirrer Migs.

By: kayjay

kayjay — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 01:10:38 -0800

Well, I'm just here to find cool links--the best of the web, ya know? American links, European links, Asian links...Antarctic links, whatever.

By: johnnyboy

johnnyboy — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 02:45:17 -0800

How many British and European members have stopped posting? Lots.

Who?

- Well I miss summer.

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 03:05:56 -0800

On alt.folklore.urban the community exerts pressure to avoid this sort of chauvinism via the initialism TWIAVBP¹. It seems to work, mostly.

1 The World is a Very Big Place

Does this mean Migs isn't leaving? Didn't someone say the "word"?

By: metaxa

metaxa — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 03:21:38 -0800

I don't know if it was Migs intent, but I do believe that Miguel's point has been illustrated absolutely succinctly just by reading the downright rude, uncourteous and plain xenophobic comments in this thread.

Just take a look at yourselves, American MeFites!

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 03:31:08 -0800

Where'd riviera get to, anyway?

By: mmahaffie

mmahaffie — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 05:38:53 -0800

Well, I'm just here to find cool links--the best of the web, ya know? American links, European links, Asian links...Antarctic links, whatever.

OK... A n t a r c t i c links.

By: taz

taz — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 05:51:28 -0800

Okay, mmahaffie; I demand you post this to the front page. This is great, and if you don't do it, I'll call you a "doodoo-head", or - even worse - an American!

By: amberglow

amberglow — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 05:57:09 -0800

Metafilter: I'll call you a "doodoo-head", or - even worse - an American!

By: mmahaffie

mmahaffie — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:08:20 -0800

Gee taz, I'm still a FPP virgin. I think my first should be more special, don't you? *smoldering look...*

/carrying on embarrassingly sensuous "orgy theme" that has taken over thread

By: littlegreenlights

littlegreenlights — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:19:57 -0800

242 comments?! Somebody done fudged the bucket.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:20:49 -0800

It's 'poopyhead', damn it! Can't you people speak Merican proper-like?

By: seanyboy

seanyboy — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:34:07 -0800

I, for one, welcome our new American Overlords.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:39:33 -0800

America builds it and the rest of the world bitches about it...what else is new?

;)

By: taz

taz — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:46:39 -0800

kiss-kiss ~mmahaffie~ kiss-kiss!!

I worked on making my first fpp "very, very special", I thought, but still, hardly no love at all. I'm promising you at least some serious love here. Go ahead and do it. It will break you out of that dread-thing about posting to the front page, and catapult you right into the "loathing" stage - at which point you are automatically one of us*!

*us = those who love, fear and hate each other, but, no matter what transpires, can't seem to stop talking to (and about) each other.

By: metaxa

metaxa — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:05:33 -0800

And lo...the thread descended into pancakes. What a crashing waste.

No. Seriously.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:30:07 -0800

Dammit, I overslept and missed the orgy.

Uh, metaxa, it was Miguel who was rude, uncourteous and plain xenophobic; the rest of us were just pointing out that fact (and speculating on possible causes, not unrelated to the massive amount of alcohol-related posting he's done). His point was uncontroversial; his manner of making it was unconscionable, and he's apologized for it. So let it go.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:38:16 -0800

posted by metaxa at 7:05 AM PST on August 17

Metaxa 5 Star, I think it was, in these ridiculous leg-size bottles with plastic shells, that kept me alive during the month of March 1989, when I found myself the sole and pneumonic occupant of Club Mykonos, at Ornos Bay on Mykonos in the Cyclades of Greece, no heat, no hot water, but a huge grin on my face, ostensibly taking inventory for the new owners while they got themselves sorted in Athens, but really just drinking myself Byronic, prowling for off-season girly satisfaction and wondering how I got there.

Also : Fuck America! Wheeeeeee!

By: chunking express

chunking express — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:47:19 -0800

So is there some sort of Metafilter coup in the works or what?

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:49:19 -0800

Ah, the perspective game!

I think KeyzerSoze put his finger on it, or close to it, a few comments up the thread : Miguel, why not invert your suppositions? It's often educational to do so even if the results are clearly off the mark.

Assume a type of figure-ground reversal as posed by my following question -

So : could the increased focus on American politics shown on Metafilter be, in part, an index, actually, of increased internationalist awareness expressed as a deeply felt concern that 1) we're probably at or close to an historical bifurcation point involving the Worldwide rise of a new economic hyper-elite, a technologically driven shift of unprecedented speed and - meanwhile amidst the ensuing and quickening political and economic trends (both good and bad) - an accelerating destabilization of the Earth's climate and Biosphere and that 2) a Huntingtonian "Clash of Civilizations" and the ensuing spread of international mayhem, police state restrictions on Democracy dictated by the illogic of the "War on Terror", and a consequent increase in World levels of military spending to even yet higher, absurd levels may be viewed by historians - if any are around in coming decades to make such assessments of our age - as a grim turning point that amounted to, in the end, to a type of fatal misjudgment of perspective and - also - a crime of intergenerational theft, by those who now live and wield power, from the coming generations of humanity, for at least millennia to come ? - The biological impoverishment may be, in the grim irreversibility of Time's Arrow, permanent and humans - such as still exist - will curse our memory.

Also, perhaps, elements of humanity will flee outward, leaving the wasted shell of a once-beautiful planet, as a sort of ravening technologically enabled fungal spore, to spread beyond the parochial backwater of that solar system we now inhabit, in our galactic neighborhood set in a peripheral arm of our galaxy - one amidst a near infinity of galaxies, and find amidst the far wastes of space, those likely highly rare jewels of planets graced by complex biological life, biospheres that suit our needs and our fancy, new Edenic planets - perhaps as yet untroubled by runaway technology-enabled species overgrowth processes - to infest and devour other worlds.

So, Miguel - the loftier "perspective" you're wearing here, as a mantle of cultural sophisticated from which to chide the political concerns or obsessions of the poor, benighted Metafilterian Americans, may - with a change in your wider, outlying assumptions or, rather, in an expansion to a wider range of vision to enable your gaze to look beyond merely that which you deem to comprise "culture" and to other realms, historic and biological - be subsumed in a larger visions that, in the surrounding light, reduces your current complaints at hand here to the merely parochial.

In short, I don't necessarily agree.

[ hi steve! ]

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:56:54 -0800

We'll never make 300.

By: biffa

biffa — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:05:46 -0800

sophisticated

sophistication?

By: metaxa

metaxa — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:15:28 -0800

His point was uncontroversial; his manner of making it was unconscionable, and he's apologized for it. So let it go.

Sorry, no dice.

What utter rubbish! It seems plainly obvious that Miguel was hounded down and railroaded into issuing a pithy 'I'm sorry' by the vast majority of posters on this thread. For what it's worth, I agree wholeheartedly with Migs' original comments.

Miguel simply asked: "Whereas (the few remaining) Europeans here are curious about America, Americans here seem boringly and predictably obsessed with themselves. Is isolationism the growing trend on this board?"

This simple question, with over 200 responses, hasn't been answered.

My point a few posts up was trying to illustrate that peoples actions on this very thread further strenghten Migs' argument. Criticism isn't handled at all well here. "I can't be bothered to do anything constructive about this problem, so instead I'll be as aggressive as possible and wear it down.... Oh look, Miguel said sorry, problem solved."

So, please, feel free to stick your collective USAsian (what a *terrible* word!) heads in the sand.

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:20:12 -0800

biffa - yup. spellcheck doesn't nab those sorts of errors.

stavros - here's some more grist :

"Sometimes it is the little things in life which do us in. It is said that the devil is in the details.

A popular saying sums this up "For want of a shoe, the horse was lost. For want of a horse, the rider was lost. For want of a rider, the battle was lost. For want of a battle, the war was lost." Small effects can cascade upwards to have, ultimately, large results. The 1845 British Franklin Expedition to search for a viable Northwest Passage - recently made possible because Global warming has reduced the arctic ice pack- was done in by it's stores of lead lined cans of food which represented, at the time, the state of the art in food preservation. The Franklin expedition members became mad as hatters and wandered about on the ice, their pockets filled with silverware, before dropping in their tracks. "

Their minds got muddled, they lost perspective.

By: geekyguy

geekyguy — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:25:10 -0800

Number One out grew it.

presumably - or he watched Monsoon Wedding

By: johnny novak

johnny novak — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:26:03 -0800

Miguel, I miss your voice around here. But not when you're posting shit like the above.

Come back, make one post a week to the blue and stop talking for "Europeans" as if you were our ambassador.

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:27:23 -0800

metaxa - read much? I think you're barking up the wrong tree and - no - miguel isn't up there cringing in fear at the snarling pack below.

He's sipping a martini, watching from a safe distance and giggling at the mayhem - no sacrificial lamb of a martyr at all, this one.

By: metaxa

metaxa — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:38:14 -0800

He's sipping a martini, watching from a safe distance and giggling at the mayhem - no sacrificial lamb of a martyr at all, this one.

Quite possibly. I'm not trying to 'defend' Miguel from the snarling pack as such, I just happen to think his point is very valid, and has been glossed over in the form of insults and pancakes.

By: dash_slot-

dash_slot- — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:46:08 -0800

I find it amusing that highlighting blatant instances of Amerocentricism [still unsure if that's really a word] - of a non-Newsfilter nature - fall like a tree in the Forest in the Land of Deaf People. Almost like it never happened...

It can kill a thread stone dead.

It's also interesting to note that this reaction has been entirely against Miguel: as if no-one else in this thread spoke out in similar vein on allied matters. Then, all you have to do is pile on to Miggy, who issues one of his famous apologies, and the matter is resolved. You can even take back that grudging apology of your own, a la scarabic¹, and we won't have to think about this, till the next time.

There there, it's alright now.

America builds it
It's not an Apollo moonshot. An American built it.

and the rest of the world bitches about it...what else is new?
Some americans also bitch about it. (",)

¹scarabic, please don't think I'm stalking. Ignore any past spats we've had. I don't have it in for you. Honest.

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:59:43 -0800

metaxa - fair enough [also as per my huge comment above] - first of all, I'd agree in large part - that Americans, shiveringly paranoid in their self-absorption, are up in a tree now and looking in fear down at the now snarling pack that is world opinion, which is in fact being goaded as the Americans self-righteously pelt the hounds with apples and bits of garbage.

But Metafilter is more - I'd argue - less a symptom of that pathology and more it's antidote. To lay bare the real heart of the beast, look to Kansas, to Edward Bernays, to religious fundamentalism, to McDonalds, and to the apotheosis of hyperconsumerist navel-gazing.

Meanwhile :

"Death told me this:
He razors off 11 days of your life for every MetaFilter minute.
On your deathbed, in a dream, he dangles them in front of you,
And offers to reimburse you, if you'll just click 'Accept'.
And when you do click 'Accept' (and everyone always does)
The screen flashes fire, turns black, and says
'Error 404: File Not Found'
In radioactive green
And big red smoochy lips appear
At low resolution
And draw your sunken face to the screen
For a final skinless kiss
Goodbye.

posted by Opus Dark at 1:14 AM PST on July 14"

By: chicobangs

chicobangs — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:07:55 -0800

Dear Rest Of The World,

For the love of Elvis, nitro-burning funny cars, Carrot Top and turducken, please oh please oh please, bring us Americans some culture from somewhere else. Anywhere. You might have noticed, but we're not picky.

Seriously.

I have really good bourbon, some excellent dixieland music, or torrents of recent seasons of Six Feet Under to trade for it. I hope that's enough.

Love, a resident of the United States.

By: Vidiot

Vidiot — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:40:26 -0800

Here ya go, Miguel:

Will Turkey Make It? from the (US-based, sorry, but the Turkish Daily News is shite.) New York Review of Books. Best description and analysis I've seen of Turkish politics -- which are fascinating -- in quite a while.

By: shoepal

shoepal — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:44:22 -0800

Whenever I consider purchasing $10 Salt, I think of MiguelCardoso.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:48:50 -0800

"Miguel simply asked: "Whereas (the few remaining) Europeans here are curious about America, Americans here seem boringly and predictably obsessed with themselves. Is isolationism the growing trend on this board?"

This simple question, with over 200 responses, hasn't been answered."

No, isolationism is not the growing trend on this board.

Now it's been answered.

By: plep

plep — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:06:01 -0800

Who's Kobe Bryant?
Best troll ever, btw.

By: plep

plep — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:09:33 -0800

Europeans here, whether British or continental, are mere tokens.

Sure, you had to miss out the Irish and the Icelanders...

By: taz

taz — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:16:59 -0800

OMG, I'm really getting ready to throw up here.

Miguel always drags for attention, and he always gets it, even though whatever "idea" he might be putting forth may be in total opposition to some earlier "idea" that he once earnestly shared with us. I'm sorry, but I figured out a long (long!) time ago that Miguel's main interest is in promoting more interest in Miguel, and I'm sorry to see so many people falling, time after time, for the same old reliable lures.

For those of you who want to see Miguel as a hero, I recommend you look elsewhere on the site - we really do have actual heroes here. What Miguel does is "performance", and he's great at it, but please don't confuse it for actual "feeling" or depth. It really isn't.

By: stupidsexyFlanders

stupidsexyFlanders — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:26:48 -0800

Whereas (the few remaining) [longtime MeFites] here are curious about [the Best of the Web], [MiguelCardoso] here seems boringly and predictably obsessed with [himself]. Is narcissism the growing trend on this board?

Yes.

By: smcniven

smcniven — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:30:33 -0800

The consensus on 69, which I've gleaned entirely from women's fashion magazines, is that it's t0tally overrrated.

I hear the Helicopter Fuck is where it's at nowadays.

Damn, and here I am still trying to figure out what a Mexican Cartwheel is.

By: ChasFile

ChasFile — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:24:33 -0800

I have really good bourbon, some excellent dixieland music, or torrents of recent seasons of Six Feet Under to trade for it. I hope that's enough.

Also Blues, Jazz, Rock and Roll, Hip-Hop, the Free Love Movement, Feminism, abstract expressionism, pop art, outsider art, the lost generation, the Algonquin Round Table, the New York school, Gehry, Lloyd Wright, and Pei, barbeque, jamablya, and apple pie, Chomsky, Dewey, and Jay, rodeo, baseball, and skateboarding, disco dancing, breakdancing, and swing, Hitchcock, Welles, and Scorsese, Brando, Bogart, and Pacino, Hemmingway, Whitman, T.S. Elliot, Emily Dickenson, and Tennesse Williams, the 24-hour convenience store, the drive-thru, and the ATM.

I'm tired of this "America has no culture" bullshit. Perhaps true when said by H.L. Mencken; no longer.

By: dash_slot-

dash_slot- — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:53:29 -0800

Hitchcock, eh? If you're claiming him, we Brits are claiming Cary Grant back. That's just the start!

BTW, 'the drive-thru' is not seen by many non-USians as an example of culture...honestly.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:06:52 -0800

Yeah, nor the ATM.

I must give props to your homeland, dash_slot-, for all the incredible rock music to come out of such a tiny island. What do you feed your young over there?

By: toby\flat2

toby\flat2 — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:25:33 -0800

American pop culture.

By: Ynoxas

Ynoxas — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:32:18 -0800

I'm bored with the rest of the internet, let's all talk about what Miguel wants to talk about!

Say the word, by the way, and you can have it all to yourselves, no hard feelings.

Which word, precisely, would that be? I want to get it right on the first attempt.

By: ook

ook — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:43:16 -0800

Metaxa: I just happen to think his point is very valid, and has been glossed over in the form of insults and pancakes

[long, splenetic rant of disagreement truncated on preview to:]

I took most of the "Miguel, you must be drunk" comments as charitable. As in, you must be drunk, because we're pretty sure that you wouldn't be dumb enough to try to make this point while sober.

By: golo

golo — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:58:50 -0800

I know that the intentions are good but I find it ironic that people want to encourage iraquis to join us, apparently not realizing that the current preocupation with Iraq is mostly an American issue (Trust me, I live in that neighborhood).

By: dash_slot-

dash_slot- — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:07:45 -0800

It is true, scarabic - everynow and again we [the Brits] produce a few bands that go on to dominate the charts across the globe for a few years. My other homeland [I sneakily lay claim to my Irish heritage when it suits!] does pretty well too.

toby - Hehehe!

Partly true, especially for earlier exponents like the Stones & the Beatles. They say that Liverpool's function as a port and links to the States were a major factor in it's emergence as a centre of music in the 60's - the merchant seamen were bringing home rare staeside recordings which inspired the local youth to take up the guitar and play. I'd say that it is less and less so these days: inherent in the nature of pop & rock is the 'pop will eat itself' feature. So The Jam & Oasis steal wholesale from the Beatles rather than the Dead; XTC bounce of the Kinks, the Small Faces and english folk music, rather than Jefferson Airplane and the Byrds.

There is a definite nerdy pop sensibility here, which almost all kids grow up with that have access to the radio. Nowadays the Beeb can take alot of credit for nurturing that, but the Radio Pirates of the 60's also worked to overcome the dead hand of old fashioned pop before the birth of Radio 1 in 1967. So I think the creative impulse, the desire to make melodic, rhytmic sounds and the acceptance of a wide range of influences are part of the explanation for British musical success. The appetite amongst the hip, urban youth for something new!new!new! and a certain pride in our homegrown talent plays a large part, too.

Course, we also have the Dole: whether that is still a life subsidy to aspiring musicians, I dunno [& it didn't benefit those hardworking MopTops in the 60's, did it?] I do know that one of the Gallagher bros. credits it for keeping him afloat when he was a struggling muso.

Doesn't a lot of it come back to the Blues, tho, when you trace it back - and that's basically African-American. The debt we all owe to all those who kept that alive from 1500 - present day is immense.

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:33:04 -0800

USAians, in general, are more parochial than most Europeans. They are not, however, more parochial than most people, worldwide. They are more parochial than they should be, given their outsized influence in the world. So the greivance is a legitmate one. Is it a national characteristic, cultural, an accident of history or geography or economics? Don't know. Are there similar examples among the Europeans in times past when their influence was outsized? Yes.

Are the MetaFilter USAians representative of USAians? Almost certainly not. Are there numerous examples, just within this thread, that show MeFi USAians to be not only more worldly than the average USAian, but possibly more worldly than the average European? Possibly.

Is MeFi getting more USA-centric recently? Probably not, once the NewsFilter US election trend is discounted. Is MeFi unfriendly to non-USAians? No, quite the opposite, at least in relative terms. Could we do better? Yes. Should we do better? Why not? It's worth a try.

Was there a bunch of hateful USA-centric bile and xenophobia thrown around in this thread as metaxa contends? Nope. Metaxa's on drugs or something.

Was there a bunch of hate thrown Migs's way in this thread? Yep, and deservedly. Was this post attention-seeking claptrap from Miguel? Without a doubt. If Miguel went away, would we miss posts like these? No, we'd celebrate. If Miguel went away, would we miss posts like he used to make in the old days to the blue? Yep. But we're missing them now. Right now all we get is the bad and none of the good.

Are Canadians even remotely comparable to USAians in this regard? Absolutely not. Canadians fetishize being "world citizens". It's what makes them "special". They're so cute, aren't they?

Did Miguel in one of his comments generalize in a negative and stereotypical fashion about USAians...behavior that were the roles and regions reversed, would have caused a huge (and justified) outrage? Yep.

Is it outrageous—a huge moral failing—that USAians, who consitute the overwhelming majority of the participants on a USA-hosted and owned community stite, assume the default context is the USA? Of course it's not. It's normal human nature; it's perhaps secondarily harmful but certainly not intended to be.

I hope that's answered most of the questions.

By: semmi

semmi — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:34:26 -0800

I feel pretty lonely here, but that never shuts me up.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:44:47 -0800

when I found myself the sole and pneumonic occupant of Club Mykonos, at Ornos Bay on Mykonos in the Cyclades of Greece, no heat, no hot water, but a huge grin on my face, ostensibly taking inventory for the new owners while they got themselves sorted in Athens

I hate you.

An American built it.

I wasn't using "build" in such a limited way. Code != site.

By: longbaugh

longbaugh — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:49:04 -0800

Jeebus - this is still going on?

What you need to understand is that Migs is fucking actor, fucking artist, fucking inventor!

Migeul Cardoso
He is already old age
He is afraid that suddenly he cannot do Helicopter Fuck.
Please give him oppotunity for Helicopter Fuck.
But don't forget, he is not gay. he need only woman for helicopter fuck.

300 comments and this gem of a link gets passed over... Oh how I despair...

By: _sirmissalot_

_sirmissalot_ — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:07:23 -0800

Miguel Cardoso:
Being endowed with great eloquence, Cardoso had many followers, but many enemies as well. An influential personage, Isaac Lumbroso, by spending much money, obtained his banishment from Tripoli. Cardoso then wandered from place to place, trying to lead people astray by his prophecies and visions, but meeting no success, as the rabbis had issued warnings against his vagaries.

By: Quartermass

Quartermass — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:16:19 -0800

Canadians fetishize being "world citizens". It's what makes them "special". They're so cute, aren't they?

Fuck you and fuck Texas too.

By: yerfatma

yerfatma — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:34:33 -0800

You better get started now. I hear tell it's a big state.

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:41:14 -0800

Hey, I mock with familiarity and affection. And you can fuck Texas all you want, I hate the place (except Austin).

Anyway, what I meant to say was quer-se ser sério e há pessoas que só querem rir.

By: asok

asok — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:56:13 -0800

Vanessa Williams, ooh, you're so divine.
Just want to put your name in my rhyme!

What everyone said, but props to Migs and metaxa who also have a point.

It's a bit like playing that game where you are supposed not to use a chosen word in a description, and starting your description with that word. Without irony.

I really don't seem able to articulate my points here very well...

There's something about commenting from afar, the lack of local reporters (and field operatives) and empathy that links mefi and the rest of the mainstream media. There's something about comfort zones. There's something about criticising those most likely to want to understand your point of view. Metafilter is the best of the (admittedly US dominated) web. The quality of debate and links is comparatively high.

Everyone here likes it.

*Orgy continues*

By: rushmc

rushmc — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:27:30 -0800

helicopter fuck
spider spinning webs of dew
waiting for the freeze

By: cCranium

cCranium — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:34:43 -0800

No one answered tetsuo:

Maybe the upcoming American Presidential election has skewed MeFi to the American perspective since it is such a source of anxiety for the American MeFites. Perhaps it will settle down afterwards. Was there a similar trend in 2000?

It definitely felt like MeFi was dominated with the election (Nader! Nader! Nader!) in summer 2000, and even moreso in the month or two following with post after post about florida ballets, supreme courts, missing whitehouse 'w' keys and all the other fooferaw that occured in late 2000/early 2001.

Some (including me) have argued in the past that the 2000 election was the beginning of NewsFilter, but I'm pretty sure America-specific site has been around the site longer than I have.

MetaFilter's not international. Why is anyone suprised?

By: signal

signal — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:37:53 -0800

2 late-to-the-party points:

1) Miguel seems to believe that the only alternative to a US viewpoint is a European one. Oldschool imperialism dies hard, huh?

2) Fairly Off-topic Pet Peeve: when people refer to the opposing political stances in the US as "left" and "right", whereas no gringo would recognize a leftist if he bit him on the ass an nationalized his national resources. From an international standpoint, in the US you have extreme-right-wing-nutter and not-so-extreme-right-wing-person.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:38:03 -0800

Jesus. I can always tell an EB post within the first three lines.

And EB, I almost always skip your posts because you take so fucking long to ever get to the point.

In BBS communications you must be as efficient as possible in conveying your message or it won't be effective.

Less is more. Take it to heart.

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:23:42 -0800

wow. what a long thread , if my internet connection was any better these days i would have read the lot of it , certainly the metayanks know how to treat a metascot with charming hospitality.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:24:01 -0800

free radicals have become a devastating enemy to our health.

By: kenko

kenko — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:34:54 -0800

Five more, people. We can do this.

By: twine42

twine42 — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:35:07 -0800

Come on guys... only another 5 posts.

Erm... Godamn Yanks trying to take over the world by the least stealthy "stealth" ever. Bastards.
Fucking blue people... coming over here... Stealing our hamsters...

By: twine42

twine42 — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:36:46 -0800

Okay... not five. Four. I mean, three. Here, Kenko, we can do this by ourselves...

By: orelius

orelius — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:44:35 -0800

damn you!

/shakes fist

By: wendell

wendell — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:44:35 -0800

I'm in.

The United States of America, I mean.

By: twine42

twine42 — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:47:02 -0800

Not even fark filters 300th post call outs. :)

By: wendell

wendell — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:49:05 -0800

I'm still a little baffled by this line in Miguel's original post...

It is not a good idea but it's a stone's throw away...

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

hey...

ouch...

OUCH!

SHIT!

CUT IT OUT PEOPLE!!!

By: sciurus

sciurus — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:30:43 -0800

wendell: Look. I-- I'd had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, 'That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah.'

MeFi: Oooooh! {throws stones}

/life of brian

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:48:52 -0800

It is not a good idea but...

It's just a kiss away
It's just a kiss away
It's just a kiss away
It's just a kiss away
Kiss away, kiss away

*dives headlong into orgy*

By: wendell

wendell — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:25:50 -0800

Hey, You Can Leave Your LanguageHat On.

By: Witty

Witty — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:35:42 -0800

I just returned from my trip to Chicago. Wow! What a fantastic place... I had no idea. I can't wait to visit again.

p.s. Cool thread. I ready every comment.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:57:23 -0800

Is it outrageous—a huge moral failing—that USAians, who consitute the overwhelming majority of the participants on a USA-hosted and owned community stite, assume the default context is the USA? Of course it's not. It's normal human nature; it's perhaps secondarily harmful but certainly not intended to be.

Well, we can settle for that if we wish. But, if we do value our international members (I have to mention that getting a shoutout from London really did make my day special) then we, as Americans, can and should do more to be inclusive and hospitable.

If it sounds like I'm agreeing with the original post, I'm not. It had way too much doom, gloom, and blame wrapped around this one basically valid reminder.

By: wendell

wendell — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:57:46 -0800

I ready you too, Wittyy.

You did remember to throw a pie in Alan Keyes' face for us while you were there, didn't you? (Just don't say you got Barack Obama by mistake... they do NOT look alike)

No, wait, Chicago is in the U.S.ofA... YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO GO TO LISBON, PORTUGAL!!!
(and the pie was for Miguel)

It is not a good idea but it's a pie's throw away...

By: semmi

semmi — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:32:43 -0800

Is there a way to get International Observers to oversee the upcoming US election?

By: Johnny Assay

Johnny Assay — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:25:38 -0800

Forget the international observers, we need a team of Blue Berets patrolling this thread.

BTW, does "The International Observers" sound like a great name for a techno band to anyone else? No? OK, never mind.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:40:50 -0800

free radicals: devastating enemy to our health, or great techno band name?
</kent brockman>

By: amberglow

amberglow — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:45:35 -0800

They're coming, semmi.

By: euphorb

euphorb — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:18:55 -0800

In these desperate times, only one candidate has the vision that it takes to defend the country against free radicals, grow the economy, and get to the root of America's problems.

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:44:57 -0800

Only 87 comments to glory.

By: Orb

Orb — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:31:49 -0800

I just wanted to be comment 314. I have a special place in my heart for "314".

As to the rest of this thread, you can now go back to having an orgy or arguing ... whichever stage it's at right now.

By: _sirmissalot_

_sirmissalot_ — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:31:55 -0800

I think you mean 86.

By: _sirmissalot_

_sirmissalot_ — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:33:31 -0800

Criminy

By: Quartermass

Quartermass — Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:57:13 -0800

Is this the biggest MeTa thread ever?

By: pemulis

pemulis — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:22:20 -0800

Hi.

By: shoos

shoos — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:12:55 -0800

Hi.

By: shoos

shoos — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:17:19 -0800

Call me.

By: attackthetaxi

attackthetaxi — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:49:56 -0800

The only thing that's changed about this website is the way you're looking at it, Miguel. You don't exactly sound like you're having a grand old time participating here. You're burnt out, so what? That doesn't raise your suspicions of some deep change in MeFi into objective fact.

And as for for the broad-brush painting of the U.S. members of MeFi, you have a history of doing so here. It's clear that you don't really know squat about the U.S., or its citizens. The only change here is a darkening of the portrait. Basically, this was a foolish post; my guess is that you're projecting problems in other areas onto this website. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is bad, because I view you as a classy guy; I'm sorry if I'm coming off a bit harsh. That's where I'm at right now, at least I know it, though.

By: seanyboy

seanyboy — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 04:36:20 -0800

Hey Cardosa. Stop reading this Now! I require your assistance in AskMe!

By: seanyboy

seanyboy — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 04:36:56 -0800

And, then I'll try and spell your name right. Cardoso. (sorry)

By: plep

plep — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 05:17:22 -0800

By: AwkwardPause

AwkwardPause — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:05:18 -0800

By: crunchland

crunchland — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:18:35 -0800

Miguel is just a guy with poor impulse control, and tends to post the first thing that spills out of his fingers onto the keyboard. He's often posted without really thinking, and tends to do so just to hear himself type. It has always been thus.

And that's about the best defense I can provide for the poor old guy.

By: Tarrama

Tarrama — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:26:37 -0800

You know how to liven things up Miguel ;-)
Your name is on my guest list for a hypothetical dinner party.

By: Dantien

Dantien — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:19:33 -0800

well, im not gonna miss out on a chance to comment in such a big thread. I mean, what kind of lurker am I?

Oh and Miguel, if you feel this site is too american for you, then go ahead and create your own metafilter-style site in your country. Nothing pisses people off more than someone coming here and complaining. No one forces you to post here.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:47:30 -0800

MetaFiltro
El MetaFilter de que está bem gostar!

1 membro
Você é registado como Miguel Cardoso

By: semmi

semmi — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:00:28 -0800

What a bunch of Cockaigne in a bucket.

By: fionab

fionab — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:22:33 -0800

Someone in AskMe is an American trying to get tips on how to move abroad (with a job). So far, s/he hasn't had any responses; I'm sure some of the peeps in this thread can offer some good hints over there!

By: DrJohnEvans

DrJohnEvans — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:52:13 -0800

Three hundred thirty-one comments later, and people are still talking about the original topic?

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:13:40 -0800

Yup. You'd think people would get tired of talking about good, offbeat places to get a martini in Lisbon.

That was the topic, right?

By: sequential

sequential — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:31:44 -0800

USAians
* 7 characers
* short for United States of Americaians

USAsians
* 8 characters
* short for United Staes of Asians

Americans
* 9 characters
* commonly accepted term for citizens of the United States
* Calling a non-American resident of Latin, North or South America an American is the shortest route to making friends. Really!

Why will I continue to call citizens of the United States Americans? I don't want to be associated, except maybe in Google, with the person who penned this thoughtful comment on LiveJournal:

Not using the word "American" to describe people living in the USA anymore: American design the people living on the continent of America, and Canadians, Mexicans, Chilians, Peruvians, etc. are Amercians too. It is not right that the USA monopolize this term.

Emphasis mine.

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:39:31 -0800

That person is clearly doesn't speak English natively. I don't see what the problem is.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:56:18 -0800

Did you know that 'Qatar,' the Gulf state which is home to Al Jazeera, translates as 'Country?' Straight up. It is not right that Qatar monopolize this term.

By: mr.marx

mr.marx — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:06:16 -0800

yanks
* 5 characters

By: shoos

shoos — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:14:35 -0800

What's even more disturbing is that Tonga means "south." Like it's their direction or something.

By: sequential

sequential — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:14:45 -0800

First of all, rent a sense of humor. It was a joke.

If for some reason the factual error escaped your eyes, America is not a continent or even a tectonic plate.

The land masses that make up North, Central and South America are commonly referred to as The Americas. This does not imply that Columbians refer to themselves as Americans, though they may identify with the term South American.

It's interesting that you decide to characterize the poster as a non-native English speaker. Is that a defense of your use of the phrase "USAian"?

For your information, the poster is apparently from Québec, Canada and appears to at least be conversant in English. I went overboard for the sake of humor, but in case that wasn't clear, I have nothing against the author of the post, just the assertion that America is a continent.

On Preview: mr.marx wins. Damnit, we are yanks.

By: kenko

kenko — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:49:55 -0800

USians: six characters, short for "united statesians", reinforces us-v-them mentality.

By: tr33hggr

tr33hggr — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:51:06 -0800

Holy crap - hi Foldy!!

came in late to this one

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:39:44 -0800

THOU SHALL NOT take the crap of the Lord in vain!

By: dness2

dness2 — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:45:31 -0800

I prefer 'Mericans. Not only does it remind everyone else on this continent that they really don't matter, but it reinforces the superiority of our educational system.

By: ook

ook — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:53:45 -0800

No no. USian. Pronounced Ooze-ian. Defines our national character.

By: ook

ook — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:57:00 -0800

Yes, I did just use the word "our" to refer solely to residents of the US. Take that! And that! I'm an exclusionist isolationist xenophobic whitebread redneck racist rat-bastard! Ha!

By: amberglow

amberglow — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:02:15 -0800

merkins ; >

By: wendell

wendell — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:13:00 -0800

I prefer Californian myself, but I'm just wacky that way.

If you think USAians/Americans and Eurofolk have issues, just put a Proud New Yorker, a Proud Californian and a Proud Texan in the same room.

If you want to feel another's pain, just call a resident of Mississippi or Lousisiana a "yank". You might survive if you tell him it's short for 'Crank Yanker'.

If given a chance to redefine the title for a resident/citizen of the U.S.ofA., I'd go for "USAm", pronounced "You-sam". But who listens to me?

*crickets*

By: scarabic

scarabic — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:35:31 -0800

Uh, I think someone must have rented *your* sense of humor, sequential. I see several humorous replies to your comment. I'm glad to hear that the whole "American" thing was meant as a joke by you, but, you know, plenty of people out there probably take it seriously.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:44:20 -0800

uhmurkun.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:51:28 -0800

just call a resident of Mississippi or Lousisiana a "yank". You might survive

You ain't just whistlin' Dixie!

By: batgrlHG

batgrlHG — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:59:34 -0800

However, no one ever gets confused and calls them yaks.
In fact yaks in general are rarely mentioned in casual conversation.
I think this is deeply deeply wrong. We should do something about this.

yak
*three letters
*domesticated bovine critter originally from Tibet
*known as "the grunting ox"
*milk is not pink (contrary to rumor) but is high in fat and apparently makes really good butter
*Tibetian monks make intricate yak butter sculptures
*The Fourth International Congress on Yak will be held in Chengdu, China from September 20 to 26, 2004

I for one welcome our yak overlords.

By: batgrlHG

batgrlHG — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:19:53 -0800

Actually the second to last link is a tease. I couldn't actually find any photos of the yak butter sculptures.
Which is quite tragic.

By: dejah420

dejah420 — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:38:05 -0800

Which is quite tragic.

It is indeed. But is it also not true of the way of the butter? It is fleeting, impermanent...some might say, elusive.

Somewhat like the point of this thread.

By: Orb

Orb — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:16:03 -0800

For your enjoyment (and the lengthening of this almighty thread), Yak butter sculptures to be found here, here and here.

I like yaks.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:31:05 -0800

Watch out, or troutfishing will eat your yak.

By: Orb

Orb — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:03:01 -0800

Well, they are tasty. So, as long as he shares, he can dine on my yak.

Somehow, that sounds bad. Maybe it's time to go to bed.

By: Blue Stone

Blue Stone — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:18:36 -0800

What; are you guys going for 400?

Miguel, you gotta skill there buddy.

By: Opus Dark

Opus Dark — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:48:20 -0800

Here,
at the bottom of the bottle,
through a magnifying tumour of malformed bottleglass,
a nightmare cartoon stares out from the Mezcal's preservative embrace;
a tiny, puckered gusano de maguey,
long-drowned,
gently swaying,
to the brownian lullaby of distilled blue agave,
pressing its head close against the bottle's bottom edge,
it advertises itself,
like a puppy in a window,
through its mutant porthole;
but O God! look closely!
this worm has a face!
Miguel's face!
shrunken,
miniature,
pickled into a smirk;
leering out,
slyly,
toothily,
longingly?
at his larger plumper faceless cousins
peacefully sleeping in their neighboring bottles;
anonymous bottles which come and go
while leaving his on the shelf,
untouched and still,
unused,
waiting,
for an American (that's the ticket!),
unnoticing and brash,
to bluster in
and choose his bottle,
the one with the skinny worm,
and drink his formaldehyde
and eat his rubbery essence -
to complete at last his long-postponed transformation -
if not into God's promised mariposa,
into something arguably better
(even if stained American)
than a small dead larva,
bitter and impotent,
gently swaying,
to the brownian lullaby of distilled blue agave,
here,
at the bottom of the bottle.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:54:04 -0800

God, I love you, Opus.

By: petebest

petebest — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:00:16 -0800

*hic*

By: dejah420

dejah420 — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:19:26 -0800

You know, you can lead a yak to agave, but you can't make him eat the worm.

By: Orb

Orb — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:39:55 -0800

Thank you dejah, you just improved my morning. I was becoming despondent that Opus hadn't mentioned yaks (though what he did write was more than lovely). Now I have my yak quote of the day ... all is right with the world (for the moment anyway). :D

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:18:31 -0800

You know, you can lead a yak to agave, but you can't make him eat the worm.

I wish someone had told me that last weekend.

By: Otis

Otis — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:41:12 -0800

France gets first drive-thru boulangerie

By: grateful

grateful — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:48:57 -0800

I for one am upset that there aren't more posts about Silver Spring. I can't stand the whole lot of you Silver Spring haters. I'm outta here.

By: grateful

grateful — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:52:14 -0800

Uh, sorry about all that Silver Spring stuff. I must have been drinking.

By: wendell

wendell — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:39:50 -0800

Two words: Yakky Doodle

By: crunchland

crunchland — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:51:31 -0800

you guys realize that this page is nearly 500k big now, and that for every post, which requires you to load the page once, and then reload it to preview, we use up a meg of bandwidth? And that doesn't even include people who are reloading the page to read this bullshit thread?

By: quonsar

quonsar — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:49:51 -0800

requires you to load the page once, and then reload it to preview

yeah, really a silly design flaw, that.

By: batgrlHG

batgrlHG — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:35:24 -0800

"you guys realize that this page is nearly 500k big now, and that for every post, which requires you to load the page once, and then reload it to preview, we use up a meg of bandwidth?"

Let's be clear that the fault is Miguel's.
The yaks are blameless.
And Orb and deja - I thank you, the yaks thank you.

By: eddydamascene

eddydamascene — Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:30:26 -0800

But I wonder if it would result in desperate Americans chosing their holiday destination based on where they can login and pretend to be foreign from.

Greetings from sunny Glasgow!

A homeless woman just asked me for my fag end. What a country!

By: sgt.serenity

sgt.serenity — Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:11:04 -0800

greetings from sunny edinburgh ! - the festivals on , why are you in glasgow ?

By: eddydamascene

eddydamascene — Fri, 27 Aug 2004 06:56:30 -0800

Spent a few days at the festival, already-- too many obnoxious English.