Comments on 8629 | MetaTalk

great Hopping Matthowie on a pogo stick...sheesh. I was up at oh dark thirty on a Sunday morning, hence the crap formatting.

Cry me a fucking river. Just because you were up a little late, you think you get a free pass to act like an idiot? Grow up and realize that rules even apply to entitled little whiners like yourself.
This wasn't for me anyway, as I don't do ebay. And if I did, I wouldn't be messing with Western Union anyway, cuz I am just lazy that way.

And that's exactly the problem here. There's a good forum for eBay issues, and it's on eBay. Posting a non-question for a non-member who isn't going to find the answer she want here in the first place is exactly what AxMe is NOT for.

Just trying to do a good deed without thinking it out all the way, is all.

Aw, poor little bunnyfire. Any more special exceptions you'd like?
posted by bshort at 12:42 PM PST on December 12
posted by konolia at 3:02 PM on December 12, 2004

I am not saying my post was good, and in retrospect I should have had Matt delete it.

My point is, we have Metatalk AND I have an email addy in my profile. THAT is where complaints should go. I really thought about ignoring this personal attack-heaven knows I am totally used to them-but I think most of us would prefer Askme to be the helpful nonsnarky place it has been so far since its inception.

What say you all?
posted by konolia at 3:06 PM on December 12, 2004

It was really bad. Really, really, bad. Violate the rules, etiquette, and purpose of AskMeta bad. Deserving of exceptionally harsh public criticism bad. In short, this is exactly what AskMeta is NOT for, and the new members should take you question as an example of what NOT to do.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 3:13 PM on December 12, 2004

i agree it didn't belong in askme and should have been discussed here or privately via email, yeah. and i was a bit surprised at the degree of hostility.
posted by ifjuly at 3:14 PM on December 12, 2004

I agree with monju.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:17 PM on December 12, 2004 [1 favorite]

And to further, I think if there is an issue with the board, it should stay on the board. I don't want to receive any private e-mails lambasting my posts; I'd rather it be posted in the post. To personally e-mail someone to tell them their post sucks seems like going a step too far.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:19 PM on December 12, 2004 [1 favorite]

You deserved a rebuke, konolia, but bshort was really a dick about it.
posted by trharlan at 3:20 PM on December 12, 2004

Well...at least you did a "MI" this time! Heh. Ahem.

Yeah, they're being ruthless bastards. There are no actual rules to keep people from posting long posts. Just some unintentional bad form; nothing for people to be so vitriolic about.

The subject may be a bit off, but that's for La Howie to decide.
posted by ChrisTN at 3:20 PM on December 12, 2004

La Howie? Hmph. L'Howie, surely.
posted by stonerose at 3:28 PM on December 12, 2004

I agree with ifjuly: if it's that bad, that's what callouts are for in the grey. No need to put the callout in the green.

Plus, yeah, what he said was true, but talk about being a dick about it.
posted by bugbread at 3:28 PM on December 12, 2004

Well, I have been on these boards (in some incarnation or other) since 2001, and it is my understanding that the place for calling out is NOT in the thread, but here in MeTa.

When I was first here one of the things I liked about this place was that people could disagree without being disagreeable. Having come here from the wild and wooly realms of Usenet, I had an appreciation for that. Over the years more and more that politeness has totally disappeared from most of Metafilter. I just hate for AskMeta to degenerate into what the rest of this site has become.

If you have an issue with what I post, take it to Meta or complain to User Number One. If you have an issue with me personally, take it to email. No reason whatsoever to poop on the rest of this site where everyone else here has to smell it.
posted by konolia at 3:31 PM on December 12, 2004

And to further, I think if there is an issue with the board, it should stay on the board.

Agreed. The thread seems the best place for post criticisms, and a Meta call-out if it's a huge deal. But I have no idea why konolia would want an email (to keep the complaint private? or?). I'd be pretty taken aback if someone emailed me just to tell me I screwed up.
posted by rafter at 3:32 PM on December 12, 2004

Oh, and konolia, make sure you are keeping two issues seperate: the fact that bshort was way too harsh on you, and the fact that he replied in-thread. One is an obvious problem, and one seems a bit far. You're not helping your cause by conflating the two.
posted by rafter at 3:35 PM on December 12, 2004

Maybe it wasn't the wisest idea to come out publicly as bunnyfire revisited; I suspect that if nobody could connect that history with your current username, a lot of the hostility you receive wouldn't exist.
posted by ook at 3:36 PM on December 12, 2004

I think the email part is due to the perceived personal nature of the problem (bshort seems to have something personal against Konolia, judging from the bunnyfire callout), which isn't really the domain of the green or the grey. Which pretty much leaves email. Personally, I just took the bunnyfire bit as an additional dig, but not some sort of extended personal axe-grinding.
posted by bugbread at 3:36 PM on December 12, 2004

Konolia, this is probably not the best post on which to make a stand about civility in AskMeta. Your question, in my opinion, was one of the worst I've read in a long while, both in terms of style and substance. Sure, bshort was a little, well, short with you, but in retrospect, do you really think your question didn't deserve the criticism?
posted by monju_bosatsu at 3:38 PM on December 12, 2004

Konolia,

Maybe the post would gone a little differently had you said "Guys, I am sorry for taking up the entire AskMe page" instead of "Sheesh. Great hopping Haughey... Who cares?".

You're at least partly to blame for the responses you got. That said, I wish people here would cool it. Matt also says that the posts here tend to be intelligent and civil.
posted by xammerboy at 3:39 PM on December 12, 2004

criticism of a poor axme post would have been tolerable in the axme thread if it hadn't been so rampantly assholist.

this is probably not the best post on which to make a stand about civility in AskMeta

so i guess it *is* all right to be a dick as long as someone screwed up ahead of you.
posted by Krrrlson at 3:43 PM on December 12, 2004

Whether or not it deserved criticism is not the point. The point is more and more over there people are getting snarky in AskMe. Why do you think you have anonymous questions about how to give a cat away?? People don't want to be personally blasted.

My point is, if you are gonna do a call out, do it in the right place.

Ook, what you said might have been true a year or so ago, but I don't really think so now. And if people did want to be stupid just because of that, they have the problem, not me. I really couldn't care less.

So basically, I guess what I am saying is either we have a rule that callouts go here, or we just say forget it, anything goes, and let every thread potentially be a crapfest. If you want the latter, fine, I will still play, but I think the site would be poorer for it.
posted by konolia at 3:50 PM on December 12, 2004

this is probably not the best post on which to make a stand about civility in AskMeta

so i guess it *is* all right to be a dick as long as someone screwed up ahead of you.

That makes my third tu quoque siting today! I'm on a roll!
posted by bugbread at 3:54 PM on December 12, 2004

siting -> sighting
posted by bugbread at 3:59 PM on December 12, 2004

I think what happened was that the post was so egregiously wrong that some people felt the this-is-bound-to-be-deleted rules were in effect, while others were simply so appalled that they had to say something, and the something they said matched the level of their astonishment.

There was no single redeeming feature about that post: none at all. It was terrible in almost every way it is possible for a question to be terrible.

Hell, I'm surprised there wasn't a goatse picture on it. If you can forget about MI, you can forget that goatse is bad.
posted by bonaldi at 4:08 PM on December 12, 2004

The rudeness in response to an inappropriate post is exagerrated beyond reason, and bshort was way out of line, to me. Nobody else was that unreasonable. Also, it is true that snarks or disagreements about posts go here, not in the thread. That's what we do here.

BUT...

Civil_Disobedient - one offender - then made up for it with a constructive comment.

To be honest, I'd almost say that konolia came off light!

An inappropriate Ask.Me post with an irrelevant Meta post. K- careful with that next Mefi post, y'hear?
One last quibble: Metafilter ain't a web board, message board, chat board...or any other sort of board.
posted by dash_slot- at 4:09 PM on December 12, 2004

konolia's post may have sucked, there was no reason to be complete assholes though. You could've ignored it rather than leave a steaming pile in the middle of it. The one obvious thing in the reply box:

note: Ask MetaFilter is as useful as you make it. Please limit comments
to answers or help in finding an answer. Wisecracks don't help people
find answers. Thanks.

So you broke the rules while whining and throwing a temper tantrum about a lousy post that may have been against the AskMeFi rules.
posted by substrate at 4:12 PM on December 12, 2004

Honestly, konolia, give it a rest. So a commenter was kind of a jerk to someone who posted an inarguably and egregiously bad AskMeta question? I can live with that. It's not as if bshort came out of the blue to criticize you or your post. Only after you attempted to defend the post not once, but twice, did bshort address you in an insulting tone. Was it appropriate? Maybe. As substrate indicates above, bshort broke an AskMe guideline, as well. Is it typical or indicative of the level of discourse on AskMe? Certainly not. The sky is not falling.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 4:17 PM on December 12, 2004

I purposely did not mention Civil_Disobedient here, as I agree he did make up for his first reaction.

As far as my sins go, okay, the post itself was way too long on the outside (since I cut and paste the email, I probably didn't realise it till too late) plus the question really was someone else's. FWIW the person did thank me for the constructive answers I got back to her with. So do we also need to make a rule that we only ask our own questions? That question was not the first one asked for someone else.

As far as what makes an appropriate question, sometimes that is a judgement call. In retrospect, the fact I myself don't know squat about Ebay should have made me decide to not ask the question in the first place. Regardless, and remarkably, I still got useful information for the person, and for myself.

So now can I simply conclude my main sin was a post that was too darn long on the outside?
posted by konolia at 4:20 PM on December 12, 2004

monju, the fact it is not typical or indicative is EXACTLY why I made this post. Most of us don't WANT that sort of thing to get typical over there. It's a little late to try to clean up the blue and the grey. Is it too much to ask to want to keep the green nice?
posted by konolia at 4:23 PM on December 12, 2004

Is it too much to ask to want to keep the green nice?

What do you think?
posted by b1tr0t at 4:24 PM on December 12, 2004

Konolia:

Keeping it too long on the outside, and not making the question very clear at all. Might have been a good idea to put the question at the bottom of the post, not the top.

And offering up pretty weak defenses for the reason you posted it like that.

And, personally, I wholeheartedly support the keeping of the green nice.
posted by bugbread at 4:26 PM on December 12, 2004

If you give anyone an excuse to pound on you around here, they'll take it. Just say fuck it and forget about it. Whining about it will just get you pounded more.
posted by McBain at 4:30 PM on December 12, 2004

What say you all?

since you obviously chose eating this month, i recommend next month you buy the meds instead.
posted by quonsar at 4:44 PM on December 12, 2004

bonaldi has nailed it I think. The post is so obviously headed for the bit bucket that people didn't feel the need to take it to meta especially since the meta post is going to be orphaned.

And konolia you've already admitted the post was bad. No MI on a multi paragraph opus; poorly articulated question; the post is a forward barely a step up over chain letters. Really, what did you expect to happen? I can't for the life of me think what kind of comments could have be made besides criticism of the post and gathering the pitchforks of protest against Yahoo and eBay.

Maybe all of MetaFilter ought to have a 12hr waiting period. 12 hours after you submit you are emailed a go ahead link with the text "are you sure you want to post this now that you have had time to /check the front page/search for doubles/wake up/sober up/come down from your high/get over your hang over/" if you say yes your thread is posted otherwise it's dropped in the bit bucket where it won't spawn a meta thread.
posted by Mitheral at 4:46 PM on December 12, 2004

Konolia, I nearly commented in the thread about how awful your post was myself, then didn't. Like most, I don't like AskMe metacomments, or when snark-based life forms post.

But, as others keep pointing out, I was especially tempted because you were not at all apologetic in the original thread. Most people take pains to treat AskMe deferentially, because it is a highly used resource, so questions scroll off fast enough as it is. Your carelessness caused at least six or seven short, carefully constructed questions to instantly fly off the page. Most questions that disappear from the front page never get answered again, so it's akin to selfishly shoving several people politely waiting in line out of your way. When Secret Life of Gravy civilly called you on it, you were dismissive of her concerns, as if you were somehow entitled to be thoughtless because you were trying to do a good deed. A simple apology might have prevented a lot of what came next.

The question wasn't a great one, but that isn't such a big deal to me. I care more that you didn't respect the forum enough to construct a coherent one- or two-sentence question, to preview your post for formatting, or to be awake enough to be careful, and that you still don't seem to be taking that complaint seriously. I'm not saying you deserved rude attacks, but that a little more beam-removal is in order as far as rudeness is concerned.
posted by melissa may at 4:57 PM on December 12, 2004

Your carelessness caused at least six or seven short, carefully constructed questions to instantly fly off the page.

Actually no. The length of the AskMe page is limited by number of posts, not by space. So posting a single question will cause a single question to roll off--it's a zero sum game. Other than that, though, I agree completely.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 4:59 PM on December 12, 2004

monju dear, now I feel a bit silly. Thanks for politely schooling me.
posted by melissa may at 5:08 PM on December 12, 2004

But, as others keep pointing out, I was especially tempted because you were not at all apologetic in the original thread.

Perhaps because at the time I didn't feel like it was that big a deal. After all, I DID know that I only knocked one question off the page, not multiples.

And perhaps my subsequent posts gave the wrong impression. As we all know, since none of us have a tone of voice to go by, sometimes that happens. People who have been around here awhile tend to get used to people's general tone, and what may seem rude and dismissive to a newbie may not seem so to someone who knows and has interacted a lot with a particular poster.
posted by konolia at 5:20 PM on December 12, 2004

Why do people expect the green to be nice? Why would it get an exception to the ouroboros of 'fuck up? - bitchslap'. It'd be nice, but the background colour doesn't change the fact that when you've got the same ~~bucketful of cocks~~ colourful personalities in the one system, the same relations will exist between those personalities.
posted by cosmonik at 5:22 PM on December 12, 2004

[ENTER STAGE LEFT: GHOST OF METAFILTER PAST]

oooooOOOOO!!! Metatalk! Right your ways!
posted by Stan Chin at 5:26 PM on December 12, 2004

konolia, I fear that in this new Dark Age of Constant N00bs, this level of snarkiness is to be expected in nearly every post. Take a look at the front page right now.

Assholery all around! Buckets of cocks for everyone!
posted by graventy at 5:41 PM on December 12, 2004

Whether or not it deserved criticism is not the point. The point is more and more over there people are getting snarky in AskMe.

Bullshit. That's a baseless assertion you've tossed out to fog the issue, which is that your shitty post caused people to snark at you. Take your lumps and move on.

...the meds instead.
I bow down before the master.
posted by Adam Greenfield at 5:50 PM on December 12, 2004

I'm with konolia. The green is not supposed to be for snark. Until Matt changes his directive at the bottom of every AskMe page, the green is for answers and nothing else.

To be honest, I think all snark in the green is the product of cowardice -- the snarker is too yellow to post his gripe to MetaTalk and get snarked themselves for making an unworthy MeTa post.

There has been more and more snarking in the green over the last month, and I think it's really hurting AskMe.
posted by onlyconnect at 5:58 PM on December 12, 2004

graventy said: Take a look at the front page right now.

The 20 questions thread is perfectly civil. Big difference between letting people know this has been discussed before vs. the assholery referenced in the other threads.
posted by cosmonik at 6:03 PM on December 12, 2004

The point is more and more over there people are getting snarky in AskMe. Why do you think you have anonymous questions about how to give a cat away?

People are getting snarky because, more and more, they're realizing that nothing they do, not "taking it to MeTa", not being polite, not providing several good posts for inspiration, is changing the fact that the Blue, Green, and now increasingly the Grey are becoming splediferously craptacular.

I've thought that Matt should put something up giving better guidelines, but that's not in the spirit of self-policing. We're all responsible for each other, and like cops, some can be unfair, some can be jerks, and some can sit on the sidelines with fish in their pants. Many of us have tried being kind and peaceful, and seen those efforts go to waste.

And people ask about their cats on AskMe because they're afraid of asking a question that's already been asked and getting pounded for it. Unfortunately, until the search engine is improved, this is unavoidable.

Oh, and quonsar, you really need to write a book of snarks. That was brilliant.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:07 PM on December 12, 2004

The length of the AskMe page is limited by number of posts, not by space.

The posts stay up, that's true, but they receive far fewer eyeballs the lower they go from the first page that fits in a standard browser window. Slashdot did some research on this, and showed that the amount of interest one of their front-page posts gets drops dramatically once it goes into the scroll zone. So a question such as konolia's kills a lot of questions off.

eat this month
God that's the funniest thing I've read this month. like, rilllly laughing-so-much-the-flatmates-wonder-funny. And now I feel ashamed.
posted by bonaldi at 6:23 PM on December 12, 2004

People who have been around here awhile tend to get used to people's general tone, and what may seem rude and dismissive to a newbie may not seem so to someone who knows and has interacted a lot with a particular poster.

Sorry, konolia, that won't fly. I've known (and liked) your online persona for years now, and I was shocked by both your terrible question and your bad-tempered defensiveness in the thread. I could only conclude you'd had a bad day and would get over it. Now you're taking it to MeTa? Take a break, my friend. You're losing perspective.
posted by languagehat at 6:27 PM on December 12, 2004

konolia, I'd been reading here for years before I got an account. So, I'm actually familiar with your style, and I still thought you were dismissive of a legitimate concern.

I was mistaken about how AskMe is formatted, so I'm glad to know better so that I don't think worse of your post than I should. But a very long, badly formatted post still eats up a lot of viewing space, is difficult to read, and detracts from the value of the page. I still think that you didn't respect the forum enough -- a preview and a framing question describing the problem are not difficult things to manage. For failing to do that, you were disproportionately disrespected in return, and I am sorry that happened to you. But ultimately, the general levels of respect here are not improved by a long-timer like yourself not paying attention to what you're doing when you post, and then failing to apologize for that with grace. I didn't presume to comment in your original thread (or worse, e-mail you, which I would find very weird and offensive if someone did it to me). You created this additional thread to ask our opinions, and that's still mine.
posted by melissa may at 6:27 PM on December 12, 2004

Come on konolia, you're already going to have an infinity of postmortal joy in contrast to our eternal torture. Give us a break if we get a bit grouchy sometimes!
posted by Pretty_Generic at 6:33 PM on December 12, 2004

Sorry, konolia, but this is basically the synopsis of your day:

"Really bad question with really bad formatting!"
"Umm... this is a really bad post."
"Sorry, I had a bad day, I know this question sucks!"
"Yeah, we know. It sucks. Stop it."
"God, what's wrong with you? I just want you to answer my question!"
"But it fucking sucks."
"I KNOW that it sucks!"
"Well that makes it even worse, now, doesn't it?"
"WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE ME?"
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 6:50 PM on December 12, 2004

That was the worse abortion of a post I have ever seen, and maybe even will ever see. You should be shot.
posted by puke & cry at 6:51 PM on December 12, 2004

melissa may, you said it best. konolia, you're just pushing yourself deeper and deeper into the crap with your defensive and dismissive attitude. Acknowledge your mistakes without imediately deflecting to the mistakes of those that followed; apologize for disrespecting the site; let it go. I am not a habitual ally of yours, but that's my most honest and generous advise.

As for the issue of whether snarks should always go to MeTa, I think it varies. A certain amount of feedback about a thread has a place in the thread. I didn't expect konolia's AskMe thread to survive very long; I don't think anybody did. Nobody wants to see a fresh MeTa call-out for every snark about a poorly constructed or, in this case, vapid and disrespectful, post.
posted by squirrel at 7:27 PM on December 12, 2004

But, guys, can't we just all agree on konolia's main sin? Also, what's the punishment? I saw we slip a vial of gay-causing toxins in her strawberry daiquiri.
posted by The God Complex at 7:39 PM on December 12, 2004

Yes, by all means, I should apologise for taking up too much space with that post. But I think it goes too far to call that "disrespecting the site." A little perspective, please.
posted by konolia at 7:52 PM on December 12, 2004

Konolia,

It's obvious you feel blameless, because you had good intentions. Everyone sees that. Take a step back and observe yourself right now. You cannot let this go. This is a patterned behavior with you. You need to recognize it and when it happens next time take a breather.

Also, you're blowing this up a bit out of proportion. Your post didn't tank. You got your answers. Just one person flipped out on you, probably because it pissed him off you seemed dismissive of the previous constructive criticism.
posted by xammerboy at 7:55 PM on December 12, 2004

Well, everyone, problem solved. I just went to AskMeta and the post is gone. So that's the end of that.
posted by konolia at 8:14 PM on December 12, 2004

Damn, and I was looking forward to spanking you a wee bit, too!

Ah well.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:41 PM on December 12, 2004

Well, everyone, problem solved. I just went to AskMeta and the post is gone.

Problem not solved; problem painted over. Your inability to acknowledge error without deflecting, or to learn from your mistakes will result in more of your self-absorbed and, yes, disrespectful behavior. Disrespectful of those who have to try to make sense of the post, disrespectful to those whose questions you shoved out of sight, and, most of all, disrespectful to those who gave you a nudge and tried to set you up for a graceful retraction. The fact that one user snapped-off on you doesn't overshadow your own boorish behavior.

I would like to believe that this thread makes a repeat of that awful post more unlikely, but you don't seem to have learned a damn thing, konolia.

So that's the end of that.

How crass. Perhaps what you meant to close with was, "Again, my apologies." Humility is a virtue.
posted by squirrel at 9:14 PM on December 12, 2004

konolia - I apologize for being so harsh, and next time I'll take it to MeTa.

But seriously, the post was terrible, and your lame defensiveness in the face of valid criticism really pissed me off.
posted by bshort at 9:23 PM on December 12, 2004

I'm with you, konolia. bshort and now squirrel are way out of line. Your post might have been formatted better, it's true, and it wasn't the best question ever, but I'm not sure why people are making such a big deal out of it. But all of that is overshadowed by the fact that complaints about posts go to MetaTalk. People should be posting nothing but helpful answers on Ask. Nothing but helpful answers.

On preview: the post was terrible, and your lame defensiveness in the face of valid criticism really pissed me off.

That doesn't make your behavior okay. You should have stopped with the apology.
posted by gd779 at 9:26 PM on December 12, 2004

Humility is pounced on by the snark sharks. The one thing I learned my first day posting here is "Never apologize! Just tell 'em to piss off!" If you look at the noob fpp's that are flamed the most, the point where it goes outta control is when the offending noob apologizes. I agree humility is a virtue in real life, but here it gets you eaten alive.
posted by Doohickie at 9:27 PM on December 12, 2004

I assume that was directed at me, Doohickie? In point of fact, there is nothing I respect more than humility - an apology covers virtually any mistake and always makes me completely forget whatever the offense was. But it must be real. When one starts with "I'm sorry" and ends with "but it's all really your fault anyway!", that's not an apology.

I want more civility here, more than most (though I more or less gave up hope years ago, perhaps the new blood will help). But part of encouraging civility is doing what we can to encourage the uncivil MeFites to recognize that you shouldn't act like that, no matter how much someone else pisses you off. We're all responsible for our own behavior here.

But if I've misread bshort's intent, then I apologize.
posted by gd779 at 9:36 PM on December 12, 2004

Doohickie, stick around a while longer. I've seen humility defuse many a tight situation. And, speaking personally, it has helped me out of several situations where I have painted myself into a corner, such as konolia has done here. My intent in this thread has been to elbow konolia toward the humility that is both appropriate and that will get her out with maximum face; if my elbows became too sharp or too frequent, as gd779 seems to suggest, then I apologize.
posted by squirrel at 9:53 PM on December 12, 2004

Humility works if it's gamesmanship, not if it's sincere. The number one rule of MeFi is that 15% of it is well-intentioned, the rest is all about the snark. I don't know why it is the way it is, but it's the way it is and a lot of people like it this way. You're going off the rails as soon as you care what someone else has said. An apology is fine and effective, even if sincere, as long as you don't stick around to see how it's received. The point is that you shouldn't really care how it's received. Every flameout and near-flameout shares the signal characteristic of someone taking things too seriously. And "taking things too seriously" includes having normal human emotions. Konolia has emotions. This means she receives wedgies at every opportunity, to remind her of how uncool she is.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:43 PM on December 12, 2004

Humility works if it's gamesmanship, not if it's sincere.

I still disagree, EB. Just about any time someone gets overly snarked for a sincere mea culpa, a bunch of other users will jump on the snarker. I've been here about 4 years, and this has been my experience.

Konolia has emotions. This means she receives wedgies at every opportunity, to remind her of how uncool she is.

Yeah, but to be fair she generally receives wedgies for doing uncool things, just like the rest of us, not because of her emotions. In fact it's her emotions that often block her ability to own up and, ultimately to learn the Lesson of the Wedgie.
posted by squirrel at 12:38 AM on December 13, 2004

We've finished now, right? Let's not make the pile-on into a martyrising. Konolia is unlikely to apologise more, but nor is she likely to re-offend (in this manner, at least).
posted by dash_slot- at 1:08 AM on December 13, 2004

Not quite, dashie.

Ethereal Bligh is just plain wrong, and is whining unpleasantly, besides.

Doohickie doesn't seem to have a clue either, but at least he has the excuse that he hasn't been around long. His utter certainty about the way everyone and everything works around here seems a bit odd, given that, but that's nothing unusual in these days of wine and newbies.

If someone wishes to believe that everyone around Metafilter is just cruel and icky, they're free to do so. But complaining to the assembled about your solipseriffic feelings of persecution and alienation in the face of all the meanies is a little lame.

Of course, maybe I'm just being insupportably nasty, and golly, just plain eating folks alive, but that would close the loop nicely, wouldn't it?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:57 AM on December 13, 2004

Perhaps if keyboards were made of living human skin...
posted by Opus Dark at 2:17 AM on December 13, 2004

posted by Keyser Soze at 2:23 AM on December 13, 2004

But part of encouraging civility is doing what we can to encourage the uncivil MeFites to recognize that you shouldn't act like that

I would say that incivility is encouraged here on MeFi; I honestly think some people see a new call-out post in MeTa, and they pound their fists in gleeful anticipation of a good verbal gang-beating. I said this already in konolia's thread, but criticism is not an excuse to be offensive.
posted by SpaceCadet at 3:57 AM on December 13, 2004

SpaceCadet, I agree with you in principle, but please point out where in this thread anyone has become unduly (and non-ironically) "offensive."

Also: is it just me, or is there an equivilent corilary of dweebs who wait for the dogpile heathens only to point righeous fingers at the dogpile heathens?
posted by squirrel at 5:41 AM on December 13, 2004

That's corollary.
posted by squirrel at 5:50 AM on December 13, 2004

konolia's motto: "I don't WANT to be exposed to anus!/criticism!/whatever!"
posted by matteo at 7:05 AM on December 13, 2004

Doohickie doesn't seem to have a clue either,

Fine, so I'm learning the ropes. But what about experienced posters who break the written rules, such as engaging in MetaTalk on the blue, or snarking on the green? The oldbies are really good at breaking the rules, then criticizing the noobs for not know what the rules are. If there is not consistency on the part of people who are experienced around here, how do you expect people to figure out what the hell the norm is?
posted by Doohickie at 7:09 AM on December 13, 2004

The one thing I learned my first day posting here is "Never apologize! Just tell 'em to piss off!" If you look at the noob fpp's that are flamed the most, the point where it goes outta control is when the offending noob apologizes. I agree humility is a virtue in real life, but here it gets you eaten alive.

This is just plain wrong, and so is EB. I'm sorry you guys got your feelings hurt, but I've been reading MeFi for a long time, and while apologies don't always work (nothing always works, that's what keeps life interesting), overall they're overwhelmingly the best strategy for dealing with your own fuckups. Don't listen to those guys, new MeFites. If people are telling you you fucked up, say "Sorry, I'll try not to do it again" and back off. The more you object and defend yourself, the more they'll pile on, and the longer your little incident will be remembered.

On preview: Doohickie, there is no consistency -- just probabilities. See above on keeping life interesting.
posted by languagehat at 7:17 AM on December 13, 2004

squirrel: on reflection, your comments are blunt, but perhaps not unreasonably so. I have a lot of sympathy for konolia, because it's clear that she's well-intentioned; but human communication is imperfect and everyone can miss the point from time to time, and in those circumstances the only way to get your point across may be to be blunt. I don't know. My point is that I may be the one lacking perspective here, and so I probably should have at least given you the benefit of the doubt.

That said: Screw it. I withdraw all my criticisms in this thread. MetaFilter has a civility problem, and that isn't going to change, because the old guard likes it that way. The newer MeFites, the ones who like respectful and intelligent discussion, will eventually be driven away just like the older MeFites were, because people who are here for the fight have a higher tolerance for crap than people who are here for civil discussion. Konolia (and I) need to realize that MetaFilter is a free-for-all; and if we don't like it like that, then we should leave, because it will not change.
posted by gd779 at 7:29 AM on December 13, 2004

languagehat- I realize you are right... to an extent. Yes, there are only probabilities. However, I see a lot of noobs being called out for inappropriate behavior, then apologizing, then getting flamed anyway.

Until recently, I was an outsider looking in. I generally stuck with just the blue. The gray is mostly internal matters, and the green is frustrating if you can't participate. I think that many non-member viewers stick primarily with the blue. If this is a valid assumption, there are two things to consider.
1) One can be very experienced with MeFi in terms of information provided in the blue, and not fully understand the underlying culture.
2) The face projected to the "rest of the world" is the blue. As such, we all (experienced and noobs alike) should be on our best behavior.

The biggest infraction I see on the blue is the amount of MetaTalks (flame wars) between people that should, I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong), take place here. In Doohickie FPP 1.0, about half the comments are MeTa that should have taken place here (i.e., the interchange between Steve_at_Linwood and Faint of Butt and associated comments). Since I wasn't really involved with that (and it had nothing to do with the subject), I suggested Steve call out FoB, but instead he said if I had a problem I should call him out. In that case, I decided not to, since we have so much contention on the gray already, and the comments regarding the FPP were dying down anyway.

But my point is this: If oldbies flame away at the noobs at the drop of a hat, several of the noobs will become flame monsters as well.

I will admit to my share of mistakes, and while it is no excuse, I am a noob. I think there are plenty of mistakes being made by people who should know better, but they apparently don't give a damn. With these people, common courtesy simply doesn't work, thus my earlier comment advising against apologies.
posted by Doohickie at 7:43 AM on December 13, 2004

I suspect that if nobody could connect that history with your current username, a lot of the hostility you receive wouldn't exist.

everyone connected that history with the current username after about ten comments. We don't get all that many friendly, slightly batty, easy-going fundamentalist christian women with multiple children 'round these parts.

I missed the post, but it's being described here as if it were the worst thing the site has ever seen, and yet no one is calling for a ban, so my sense is that perhaps the terribleness is being a wee bit exaggerated? On the other hand, the same could probably be said of the critiques... maybe it just wasn't all that big a deal after all.

fwiw, I completely disagree that sincere humility is going to make it worse for you. When someone apologizes and seems to honestly take into account the criticisms, it almost always results in some kind of group hug...
posted by mdn at 7:56 AM on December 13, 2004

Somehow a hug from stavrosthewonderchicken or quonsar seems unlikely. But I'll try it your way.
posted by Doohickie at 7:58 AM on December 13, 2004

stavros doesn't hug, but he does give noogies. quonsar... you don't want to know what quonsar does when he likes you.
posted by languagehat at 8:08 AM on December 13, 2004

I uh... heard about the fish in his pants. You're right; I don't want to know.
posted by Doohickie at 8:30 AM on December 13, 2004

That wasn't whining, it was honest advice. MeFi is more like a middle-school playground than almost any other online community I've seen. A smart playground, but a playground nevertheless. Humiliation is the modus operandi here. Being seen as a sincere, well-intentioned person with, gasp!, weaknesses, is the surest path to being the hapless kid the bullies pick on. You can see this clearly with konolia: she doesn't quite fit in, but she hangs around anyway, with her delicate sensibilities and her too-feminine emoting, and the mob is gleeful at all opportunities to beat her up.

A notorious jerk like "Bad Commie" is beaten up because he's a jerk and, mostly, inept at it. But that's the exception, people like him are quickly culled. More exemplary of the those most frequently targeted by MeFi is the well-intentioned newbie. Or someone who is seen as taking themselves "too seriously", or insufficiently ironic. Any perceived weakness is the trigger; konolia said long ago that MeFi eats its young, and she was right. It is exactly the schoolyeard mentality and it can be fun if you have overt or latent sadistic tendencies you want to indulge.

A newbie can be earnest and authentic and desirous of changing the culture for the better as long as they keep their head down while doing it. Being smart and careful about it, that might work. Being naive means a kick in the gonads.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:53 AM on December 13, 2004

I think there are plenty of mistakes being made by people who should know better, but they apparently don't give a damn.

dickhooey: i thought you said you had been reading for years? given all the blather you've spewed the last few days about how things should/would/could be, one would suspect you just fell off the turnip truck.

Eponymous Blargh: mmmph! mmph!
posted by quonsar at 9:04 AM on December 13, 2004

What can I say? The turnip delivery guy is the only one who stops for hitchhikers.
posted by Doohickie at 9:10 AM on December 13, 2004

Hmm ... I didn't see konolia's offending question, so I can't comment on how worthy it was of criticism. On the issue of whether bshort's callout was excessive - can I offer the suggestion of criticizing the action not the person? Saying "this question was completely inappropriate and your refusal to take responsibility for it is really annoying", would probably work better than calling names ("...entitled little whiner...").

Actually, since bshort has already apologized for the harshness of his tone, I'd offer that suggestion to anyone else who thinks they're going to "win" an argument on the internet by insulting the person whose opinions or actions they disagree with. I'm willing to bet you won't find many folks out there who have had their opinions or actions changed for the better by being called a nasty name.

mdn - "fwiw, I completely disagree that sincere humility is going to make it worse for you. When someone apologizes and seems to honestly take into account the criticisms, it almost always results in some kind of group hug..."

That's been my observation as well.
posted by tdismukes at 10:09 AM on December 13, 2004

her too-feminine emoting

WTFEB?
posted by soyjoy at 11:10 AM on December 13, 2004

gd779- In your post at 9:36 PM, you ask, "I assume that was directed at me, Doohickie?" referring to my 9:27 PM post. Even though you remarked about apologies in the preceding post a 9:26 PM, I was actually refering to konolia's post at 7:52 PM. I didn't actually see your post until after I had posted. And although it probably doesn't seem like it now, it was intended more as support for konolia than a diatribe against being civil. And for that, I apologize. But I still don't want a hug or anything like it from quonsar.
posted by Doohickie at 11:32 AM on December 13, 2004

EB, it must be my far-from-perfect English, but "too-feminine emoting" sounds like, well, shit, to my infidel ears.

konolia's problem here is that way too often she turns herself into fish in a barrel (the anus thread is one classic example). and she craves the attention in a weird way, see her bunnyfire flameout days.

add to this very unstable mix the fact that her ideas (ie her anti-gay, pro-Bush, WarriorJesus crap) don't go over very well in this community (thank Allah), and the result is the occasional pileon. I think that anybody who rants about not wanting to be exposed to anus on MeTa is, well, looking for trouble. she usually finds it. I suspect that being ignored would be more of a problem for her.
at least, people here pay attention to her. even the mighty quonsar. in his "food or meds" quonsarish way, OK. but he does.
posted by matteo at 12:10 PM on December 13, 2004

If oldbies flame away at the noobs at the drop of a hat, several of the noobs will become flame monsters as well.

Heh. That's been my story; I also learned to hold grudges for years. This Internets thingy is a wonderful place for hostility. But I don't think it has to or should be that way.
posted by davy at 12:55 PM on December 13, 2004

And she craves the attention in a weird way, see her bunnyfire flameout days.

They sewed that scarlet "B" on there good, didn't they?
posted by Cyrano at 1:26 PM on December 13, 2004

There are lots of places on the internet if one wants to see a gaping anus. I just don't see why Meta has to be one of them. So evidently that makes me a freak?

Nah, that makes me normal. Of course on quonsar's planet things are probably different.
posted by konolia at 2:26 PM on December 13, 2004

konolia's problem here is that way too often she turns herself into fish in a barrel

matteo nails it.

konolia, MeTa may not "have to" be such a place, whatever that means, but that's somewhat like saying this world doesn't have to be full of wars, poverty, and oppression. Best to get used to the world, and MeTa, as they are. Remember that thing about lighting a candle rather than cursing the darkness?
posted by languagehat at 2:33 PM on December 13, 2004

December 12, 2004 3:01 PM Subscribe

December 12, 2004
3:01 PM Subscribe