Comments on: Grammar Issue

Grammar Issue

divrsional — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:25:13 -0800

It's worth its weight in grammarcheck to use it's and its correctly.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:28:36 -0800

Oh, no. Not again.

As long as a reasonable person can figure out what the person meant, nitpicking about apostrophes is just that-nitpicking.

By: eyeballkid

eyeballkid — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:30:59 -0800

It's the lamest Metatalk post ever!

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:31:46 -0800

This probably won't turn out well, based on our history with this kind of thing.

I'd offer what I usually do in matters like this -- although people focus (hopefully) on what they say, how they say it is equally important. If you come off as lazy or semi-literate -- as a result of mistakes or no-caps or whatever -- it has a significant impact on the way in which people respond to what you say.

If you don't care, or offer nothing but one-liners, then it doesn't matter so much, I guess.

By: me3dia

me3dia — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:37:43 -0800

Good lord, do we have to have a MetaTalk post on every grammar and/or punctuation issue on the site?

"Y'all don't follow AP style, I'm takin' it to the Grey!"

Stavros, you're right, it does have an impact, but as has been pointed out many times before, most MeFites are not English majors, and many aren't native English speakers. Nitpicking about apostrophes on a community website with a global membership is plain silly.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:40:18 -0800

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

...................................................................................

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Provided in advance in case I muff any punctuation in the future.

By: fixedgear

fixedgear — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:41:21 -0800

After we do this one to death, could we do upper case vs. lower case?

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:45:07 -0800

Nitpicking about apostrophes on a community website with a global membership is plain silly.

I don't disagree.

By: cosmonik

cosmonik — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:47:20 -0800

fixedgear - yes, and then Republican vs Democrat.

FFS divrsional, I'd suggest that checking the history of MetaTalk is worth its weight in gold.

When callouts are over specific horrific apostrophe abuse, as many have been, they still don't go well because people don't care enough.

Yours isn't even that. It's a bunch o' links to grammar sites. Contextualise your call-outs. Even then, it doesn't help. People don't come here for grammar lessons.

On preview: this probably sounds angrier than it should.

By: mcwetboy

mcwetboy — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:51:11 -0800

Lynne Truss, Eats, Shoots and Leaves, pp. 43-44:

The confusion of the possessive "its" (no apostrophe) with the contractive "it's" (with apostrophe) is an unequivocal signal of illiteracy and sets off a simple Pavlovian "kill" response in the average stickler. The rule is: the word "it's" (with apostrophe) stands for "it is" or "it has". If the word does not stand for "it is" or "it has" then what you require is "its". This is extremely easy to grasp. Getting your itses mixed up is the greatest solecism in the world of punctuation. No matter that you have a PhD and have read all of Henry James twice. If you still persist in writing, "Good food at it's best", you deserve to be struck by lightning, hacked up on the spot and buried in an unmarked grave.

me3dia: Most of the perpetrators are native speakers. I don't think basic literacy requires an English degree; I learned this rule in the fourth grade.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:57:18 -0800

Have any of the Punctuation Police thought to take into account the fact that many of us are typing our comments on the sly at work and may not have time to go over them with a fine tooth comb?

Cut us some slack.

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:58:47 -0800

I fix these whenever I see them just to keep the dander down around here. I bet you are talking about this post [nothing to see there, move along].

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:05:33 -0800

Pedants need something. Oh, yeah, it's a UFIA.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:06:02 -0800

"I fix these whenever I see them just to keep the dander down around here."

I wish you'd stop.

By: divrsional

divrsional — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:16:24 -0800

Hrmn. Interesting response. I meant no offense to anyone, which is precisely why I didn't include any pointing fingers. I'd just noticed the error a lot lately, and thought I would comment on it as non-judgmentally as I could. I am neither punctuation police nor a nitpicker. I do think knowing the difference is worthwhile. You're entitled to think otherwise. And, for the record, I searched for the topic and couldn't find it. Otherwise you may be sure I would have avoided it.

I wonder what makes people so defensive about these things? I note your difference of opinion, and I've learned a bit more about what some members do and do not find acceptable. Onward.

By: wendell

wendell — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:23:58 -0800

By: lobstah

lobstah — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:25:19 -0800

"I note your difference of opinion, and I've learned a bit more about what some members do and do not find acceptable."

Did you miss a comma there? ;P

By: jonmc

jonmc — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:29:01 -0800

I wonder what makes people so defensive about these things?

I suppose for a lot of us it's like being back in school. Which not all of us enjoyed.

By: smackfu

smackfu — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:32:20 -0800

I care about my grammar, read that boring punctuation book mentioned above, and I still don't get this right unless I pay attention and remember it's a contraction not a possesive. My brain and fingers will always write the apostrophe. I have to delete it after the fact.

AKA, this is a lost cause.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:33:21 -0800

I fix these whenever I see them just to keep the dander down around here.

I've studiously avoided the 'pile-on-the-new-admin' phase of The Jessamyn Regime, but I gotta say that I'm not entirely comfortable with this either.

But I assume it's just posts to the front page you're talking about, rather than comments, so... meh. Fair enough.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:57:46 -0800

"...I assume it's just posts to the front page you're talking about..."

I'll assume no such thing.

Is she a moderator, or a grammar and spell-checker? Should we just submit all our posts and responses via email to be checked over?

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:58:00 -0800

Yeah if someone botches a URL or spells something wrong in a FPP and posts right afterwards [or emails me] saying "ack, this is the real URL/spelling" I'll usually fix it. If they don't mention it, or if it's inside a thread, I usually skip it. People own their own spelling.

By: Feisty

Feisty — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:00:50 -0800

I fix these whenever I see them just to keep the dander down around here.

Seriously? Ick. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth, front page or not. Good writing skills keeps the average post from looking bad, but a strong post or comment stands on its own, regardless of window dressing.

On Preview: If the only change is functional or via request, that's pretty cool. Thanks, jessamyn!

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:01:59 -0800

"...I fix these whenever I see them just to keep the dander down around here..."

is a lot different from

"...if someone botches a URL or spells something wrong in a FPP and posts right afterwards [or emails me] saying "ack, this is the real URL/spelling" I'll usually fix it..."

Which is it?

By: greasy_skillet

greasy_skillet — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:04:27 -0800

dude dont even get me started about lynne truss

By: PinkStainlessTail

PinkStainlessTail — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:11:59 -0800

YOUR A FUCKING PEDANT. REAL WRITERS HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO WITH THERE TIME THAN WORRY ABOUT HOMOTOPHONISMS.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:13:57 -0800

...THERE ...

Comedy molybdenum (and I assume deliberate)!

By: dame

dame — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:14:45 -0800

Screw AP, I want to see some Chicago around here.

And lobstah, where is the missing comma in there? Because I edit for a living, and I do not see it, which embarrasses me.

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:15:36 -0800

Which is it?

It's the latter. The former was hyperbole, though I fixed some spelling in that FPP with the really bad spelling a few days ago because people were complaining.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:20:35 -0800

"Which is it?

It's the latter. The former was hyperbole.."

So perhaps moderators (who have the ability to edit posts) ought to refrain from hyperbole?

Be an editor, or be a commentor.

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:21:50 -0800

Jeebus, who gave crash_davis's account to quonsar?

By: bonaldi

bonaldi — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:27:10 -0800

If they don't mention it, or if it's inside a thread, I usually skip it -- jessamyn

That "usually" worries me. People really do own their own spelling, and posts. Editing comments? Jesus.

I hope you're able to decide flawlessly when peeple spell things teh wrong way for effect too, jess. Actually, I'm really fucking massively uncomfortable with silent editing on anything typed here, and I am an editor. Deleting posts is one thing. Editing is entirely another, however well intentioned it may be.

By: lobstah

lobstah — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:31:54 -0800

LOL dame, I was just being a wise ass. I'm probably wrong in thinking that there should be a comma either after do, or not. Let the Grammarians slay me if I'm wrong !

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:38:36 -0800

I usually skip it

Yeah I'd skip it unless I know them personally, heard from them, was already chatting with them and said "hey want me to fix that?", or any other obvious indicators that something needed to be fixed. I don't edit but if someone asks me to, or points something out like not putting in escape characters for HTML or bad line breaks from cutting and pasting from someplace else, I could edit. If someone's got an address in their profile, I usually try to email them.

By: SoftRain

SoftRain — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:47:04 -0800

Why would anyone care if a moderator fixes spelling? It seems like way more work than is worth taking on, but I don't see why appearing to be a better speller than one actually is would bother a person. They edit your spelling if you write a letter to a newspaper. (Of course, spelling, thoughts, fine line, blah.)

And the moderator in question has reiterated that she doesn't do so unless she is asked or she checks with the poster.

Confidential to divrsional: I would love to make the internet spell better, but it's a losing battle.

By: bonaldi

bonaldi — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:50:26 -0800

That really does sound reasonable, but I'm worried enough to harp on once more, sorry, about two things:

I don't edit but if someone asks me to...
I take it that someone can only be the original author?

I usually try to email them.
Argh, more usually! Unequivocally, jess, can you say that you don't edit people's posts without their personally requesting it -- or it being brought up here and you recording it as in the horror spelling case above?

By: casu marzu

casu marzu — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:56:54 -0800

Am I missing something here? Are we getting grammar advice from someone who can't even spell his own username correctly?

Sure its annoying, but your tilting at windmills, divrsional.

By: bonaldi

bonaldi — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:03:27 -0800

SoftRain: Because this isn't a newspaper? On a newspaper there's a team of editors who work on all the copy to ensure a consistent and quality product each morning for a given audience. There's no such audience here, and we're not content creators. There's nobody to make things better for -- and "tidying up" just has a stultifying effect.

I point you to the amount of fun being had in Alex's thread just a couple above this. Would that bit o' bonding be going on if someone had stepped in and brought his first two posts together? It's like a friend making a freudian slip and everyone laughing.

Correcting spelling is minor, but there are umpteen reasons for non-conventional spelling, and it's a step over a line: either our posts are sacrosanct (barring outright removal) or they aren't. I think the (c) notice suggests the former, but I'm no longer sure.

By: cosmonik

cosmonik — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:16:00 -0800

jessamyn: I fix these whenever I see them just to keep the dander down around here.

Please tell me you're kidding. And if you're not, stop doing it now, for the love of satan.

jessamyn, surely this is well beyond your mandate. Nobody's posts should be corrected or punctuated. They are © the original authors. Don't mess with them.

By: cosmonik

cosmonik — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:18:36 -0800

Clearly I missed out on jessamyn's response to such concerns previously. Apologies.

By: Jim Jones

Jim Jones — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:30:03 -0800

Jeff's iPods and computer is in the car.

Jeff's iPods and computer are in the car.

Which is it? I keep forgetting and since we're all here, I thought I'd ask. (But to my credit I do know the its/it's thingy.)

By: scarabic

scarabic — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:32:14 -0800

I wonder what makes people so defensive about these things?

I wonder what makes you so knowledgeable about these things and willing to share in such a non-judgmental, utterly non-grammar-policing way. Ah well. I'm thinking nothing kind toward you at this moment. But you're entitled to think otherwise.

wendell, you rock

By: tellurian

tellurian — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:38:10 -0800

I point you to the amount of fun being had in Alex's thread just a couple above this.
posted by bonaldi at 8:03 PM PST on February 15

Well that's almost all gone now. Were a couple left in so your comment would make some sense to someone looking at the thread now?

By: tellurian

tellurian — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:03:17 -0800

Oh, I see. Your'e all over there now. Thanks for telling me.

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:43:58 -0800

I make that mistake occasionally. I hope: very ocassionally. Every instance of that mistake does not represent someone who doesn't know better. Consistent misuse? Okay. An occasional slip? We're all human.

By: orthogonality

orthogonality — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 05:08:04 -0800

bonaldi rumbles "Deleting posts is one thing. Editing is entirely another, however well intentioned it may be."

The difference being that deletion, while annoying, doesn't attribute to the author something he (or she) didn't actually write.

Nor does it open up the possibility that replies to the comment will no longer make sense, once the original version has been thrown down the Memory Hole.

Editing comments is pernicious and jessamyn should not....

worry about these puerile criticisms of her glorious reign as editor made by that reactionary Bukharinite and bourgeoisie formalist bonaldi! We should welcome her every change, as each edit hastens the day when true Socialism will be achieved! She should be allowed to change anything she wants, any time she wants to, because her judgment is flawless and inerrant and she is an example to us all, a New Soviet Woman and the inspiration of the Next Five Year Plan!

_{[post edited by jessamyn]}

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:49:54 -0800

I think I'm starting to fall out of love with orthogonality. The bloom has come off the rose, I guess. It's all the hyperbole intended to demonstrate a point. And too cleverness by half.

Reminds me of me. That's not good.

By: bshort

bshort — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:08:23 -0800

orthogonality is exactly right.

By: orthogonality

orthogonality — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:53:48 -0800

Ethereal Bligh sighs "I think I'm starting to fall out of love with orthogonality"

Dumped. And right after Valentine's too!

You are a cruel and heartless beast, Ethereal Bligh!

"It's all the hyperbole intended to demonstrate a point. And too cleverness by half."

Mom, is that you?

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:53:06 -0800

I think I'm starting to fall out of love with orthogonality.

well tag me in then, I think I'm finally starting to understand his sense of humor. New Soviet Woman indeed!

By: nequalsone

nequalsone — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:54:26 -0800

OK, I'm an editor by profession, but I get this wrong all the time. It would be easier to remember if some discernible rationale existed. Is one use more deserving of the apostrophe than the other? If they both had apostrophes, would readers have trouble understanding which meaning was intended?

By: timeistight

timeistight — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:16:01 -0800

It would be easier to remember if some discernible rationale existed.

"Its" doesn't have an apostrophe because none of the possessive pronouns – mine, yours, hers, his, its, ours and theirs – have apostrophes.

By: Floydd

Floydd — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:01:00 -0800

"Well I told 'em right then", Fido said
"It should be easy to see.
The crux of the biscuit
is the apostrophe"

By: casu marzu

casu marzu — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:17:36 -0800

If I was in jessamyn's position, I would edit Metatalk posts complaining about grammar, spelling, and usage errors to make them full of grammar, spelling, and usage errors. I would also edit any responses intentionally containing these errors to tweak the original posters in order to make them error-free.

I can start anytime.

By: Cyrano

Cyrano — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:41:15 -0800

It would be easier to remember if some discernible rationale existed.

Doesn't saying out the contraction as "it is" when you proofread pretty much tell you which one is correct most (if not all) of the time?

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:06:02 -0800

It would be easier to remember if some discernible rationale existed.
Think of the apostrophe as a dot over the imaginary "i", it's = it is.

This post sucks because you are interpreting misprints as a lack of knowledge in grammar here. "Never judge a book by its cover." What do you do when reading a published book that has a misprints in it? Bet you don't think that the publisher or writer is any less educated.

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:12:38 -0800

that has or have a misprint(s)
See, complaining makes members post corrections ...then you will have complaints that the corrected comments are taking up vital space. "Never ending story." [damn song is stuck in my ear now]