Comments on 9362 | MetaTalk

Sometimes I think it's best for people not to post. Seriously, maybe they just don't have anything interesting to say. I guess that I'd just as soon people post less rather than more.

Also, I really enjoy reading AskMe, even when it's not my question being answered. I'd argue that asking good questions is contributing.

On the other hand, if you want to make a rule that you are not allowed to bitch about other people's FPPs until you've made your own, I'd be totally behind that.

Of course I'm not referring to you, riffola. I always love your posts.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 5:31 PM on April 10, 2005

I can understand how this may offend someone's sensibilities, especially if you have strong opinions on How People Should Behave, but I cannot for the life of me see what objective harm there is in allowing this.

Answers to questions improve the general weal, regardless of who asks them. That's a hell of an archive being built over in the green.

And something I've learned from my little mapping project: people don't just search for information on teh internets by using Google; they ask people questions. Lots of them. Some people prefer to fill out a contact form and ask a human being rather than fill out a search form. Whether That's What People Should Do is irrelevant; it's what happens.

The opportunities for abuse on AskMe are much less than they are on the blue proper: I'd much rather have someone sign up just to ask a few questions than someone who signs up to pimp their sites.
posted by mcwetboy at 5:31 PM on April 10, 2005

This goes to the core of the one site multiple code problem. The code for The Gray and The Green are using different code than The Blue.

Other visible effects include comment count not visible within posts, the time does not reflect your preferences setting and the 'open in new window' doesn't work.

Of all the ponies, I hope that code integration will be soon.
posted by geekyguy at 5:38 PM on April 10, 2005

um, ~~using~~
posted by geekyguy at 5:39 PM on April 10, 2005

One more thing. (Just one. Really.) The impulse to prevent n00bs from asking questions before they've earned their stripes reminds me of seanyboy's proposal to snub members who ask questions but don't answer them. The premise behind each suggestion is the same: that people conforming to a certain statistic are abusing the resource and should be penalized for (or prevented from) doing so. Which premise I reject.
posted by mcwetboy at 5:41 PM on April 10, 2005

There's absolutely nothing wrong with people joining the site simply for askMe, since many consider it the best aspect of the site. And I disagree with the "take without giving" arguement. AskMe is entertaining in many subtle ways. By posting questions, they're providing as much content as someone, say, who mostly ~~parrots~~ shares news stories on their favorite conservative bashing topics...
posted by crunchland at 5:46 PM on April 10, 2005

They don't even have to touch MeFi or MeTa, I'd be ok if they just were actively participating in Ask MetaFilter by answering a few questions.
posted by riffola at 5:49 PM on April 10, 2005

If such people were posting questions like, "DUDEZ WHERE CAN I FIND PIX OF BRTINEY NAKED SHE'S TOTTALY HOT!!!1" then you might have a valid beef. As it stands, though, I don't see any particular harm in people asking questions that are just as intelligent as your average long-time user's. And, as crunchland & mcwetboy said, asking intelligent questions is itself a contribution to the community.
posted by Johnny Assay at 5:58 PM on April 10, 2005

You have a hang out for a week before you can ask a question, so it's not like they just showed up, posted the question, and left. They at least hung around.

I'm surprised more people haven't complained about the 7 day hold on accounts, but I thought that was a good way to force them to lurk and get a feel for the place.
posted by mathowie at 6:06 PM on April 10, 2005

DUDEZ WHERE CAN I FIND PIX OF BRTINEY NAKED SHE'S TOTTALY HOT!!!1

Here. (NSFW if you're not allowed to look at clothed people at work.)

On-topic, the idea that people must "contribute" something before asking a question in order to "preserve" the community here is a silly one, for the following reasons:

* Commenting somewhere else is not necessarily a contribution in the sense that it betters the community. This can never be successfully defined, since it's a subjective thing, so there's no sense in trying.

* Contributing (assuming we can define it, which we can't) somewhere else in the site doesn't have anything to do with asking a question in ask-me, since either one of these things can be considered a contribution. Many valuable questions are asked each day. The notion that each question is something that needs to be "balanced" by a "real contribution" elsewhere makes no sense.

What I think you're really after is the ever-elusive "old metafilter." Good luck finding it.
posted by odinsdream at 6:15 PM on April 10, 2005

I'm still green and don't exactly have my legs here yet (as evidenced by my *lovely* post the other day), but I don't see the harm in people just hanging out for ask metafilter. They paid their fee; isn't that what matters? If not (and if you're one of the folks that thinks the 7-day hold isn't good enough), then you should just go ahead and make some type of Metafilter quiz/scavenger hunt before they're allowed to post. You know - you have to know what GYOBFW and whatever else means before you can post.

I had been a lurker in the blue for eons before I discovered the green; and now it rivals the blue for being interesting. Kinda like reading an advice column in a magazine.
posted by tozturk at 6:19 PM on April 10, 2005

riffola, I didn't mean to completely disagree with you -- I do understand the reasons behind what you're saying here. Before new users came aboard, Ask Mefi ran for almost a year with people that kind of knew each other well, so it wasn't some random stranger asking you if they should find a new dentist, it was like a neighbor or friend from work, which definitely made the environment feel more like a close knit group helping each other.

So now we have thousands of new folks with no history here, and they're just dropping in to ask our help and suddenly it feels like a random stranger asking you for tips on finding a dentist.

That said, not everyone followed the same course finding and contributing to the MeFi world and we can't expect everyone to learn in the same ways. There's a good chance people that ask one question may answer a few later on -- there's also a chance they'll never ask or answer anything and be gone after their one contribution. Neither are correct or incorrect.

The bottom line is that yeah, new users do tend to change the place and maybe diluted the feel of ask mefi when it was semi-private, but I think overall it's still remained incredibly useful, so I don't expect to change the rules there soon. But I will admit that sometimes I am more likely to help out when I notice a familiar name attached to a question I have an answer for.
posted by mathowie at 6:33 PM on April 10, 2005

I don't see why it matters what people do or don't post as long as they aren't posting crap.
posted by orange swan at 6:34 PM on April 10, 2005

The problem is, these drive-by users are posting crap questions that could easily be answered with a quick googling. This is a community, not Ask Google...
posted by SpecialK at 6:49 PM on April 10, 2005

I've been telling people about askme, basically pitching it as a one time fee for answered questions and the ability to answer others questions. I figured that if someone wants to give matt 5 bucks and ask a question, more power to them.

Also, as matt already said, they have to wait a week before asking any questions. If they had to "contribute" (comment) beforehand, I suspect it would add mosting noise comments.
posted by puke & cry at 6:51 PM on April 10, 2005

Even users who have been around for ages post crap questions to AskMe. And that person SpecialK pointed to, who asked the question for his book report, should know better -- AskMe is not the place for it. Better to proposition someone using IM and pay them to write the term paper for you.

Seriously, I suggest that this sort of thing might be better dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Though, the "drive-by" aspect of new user accounts (especially in regards to puppet accounts) is a problem that's waiting to be addressed, all across the Metafilter sites.
posted by crunchland at 7:25 PM on April 10, 2005

riffola posted the following bullshit:

"The communal feeling of this site that I enjoyed is suffering the process."

To which we respond: BULLSHIT!

Sheesh!
posted by mischief at 7:27 PM on April 10, 2005

What about people who buy an account in order to post a long, opinionated answer to one question, never to be heard from again...?
posted by bonheur at 7:53 PM on April 10, 2005

I bet if you posted a new question about penises, he'd pop up again.
posted by crunchland at 7:56 PM on April 10, 2005

The communal feeling of this site that I enjoyed is suffering the process.

So now we have thousands of new folks with no history here, and they're just dropping in to ask our help and suddenly it feels like a random stranger asking you for tips on finding a dentist.

I have to agree with riffola here, while also appreciating the fact that a community has to grow to survive. I miss the familiar back-and-forth that having a closed community gave, but there was no doubting that this was a two-edged sword, with the other edge of the blade dealing a familarity-breeds-contempt cut (like we need help breeding contempt here).

Like many others (I suspect), I would be the last to complain were memberships to be closed again now that the stink of stagnation has been washed away by all this new blood, but I suspect that the latest floodgate opening has taken MetaFilter beyond the point where it can survive having the gates slammed shut again. Which is a shame, but more than likely an inevitable consequence of a community being so popular. Live with it.
posted by dg at 8:10 PM on April 10, 2005

this sounds like a kind of ocd annoyance rather than a real issue.

you know, comparable to "I hate it when people use the term, 'dude.' We should ban people that do that."

It is entirely possible that riffola's complaint really does come from a diminished sense of community, but with 20,000 members, does he really know every new member's posting record without researching it first? Is he really aware of the members' posting records as soon as their questions come up? Something tells me he looks these things up (for whatever reason) because he knows it annoys him.
posted by shmegegge at 8:18 PM on April 10, 2005

It is definitely worth remembering that the "anonymous" feature is not currently working, so it is entirely possible that some percentage of the one-hit wonders are sock puppet accounts for regular members to ask questions they'd rather not be directly associated with for one reason or another...
posted by mdn at 8:19 PM on April 10, 2005

riffola writes "The communal feeling of this site that I enjoyed is suffering the process."

I am sorry you were forced at gun-point to answer a newbie's question. If only there were a simple, elegant way for people to skip questions they'd prefer not to answer.

I've given 137 answers in AskMefi, and not once did it occur to me to think, "Hmm, I should check out the poster's posting history to see if he really deserves an answer." I was treating AskMefi like usenet, where polite and on-topic questions get answered regardless of who is asking, but I now realize that that takes away from the exclusive clubbiness that makes Metafitler so elite. I mean, "1337".

I now understand that if we answer just anybody's questions, how are we going to convince them that we're the coolest kidz in the coolest clique in the coolest highschool EVAR?

From now on, my standards will be higher: I will only answer questions from established users with long posting histories -- and I'll go one better: I'm only going to answer questions from people whose user names start with "q". If your username does not, pony up another $5 and start working on a posting history if you expect me to even acknowledge your freshman existence.

Incidentally, my askMefi answers to questions ratio is 137/2 or 68.5; riffola's is 520/23, or only 22.6.

I think that indicates that while riffola is contributing enough to deserve answers, he isn't contributing enough to deserve good answers. Until riffola gets his ratio up over 40, I suggest we answer any AskMefi questions he posts with undisguised ambiguities.
posted by orthogonality at 9:12 PM on April 10, 2005

amen ortho!
posted by puke & cry at 9:26 PM on April 10, 2005

Orthogonality: Excellent post, I withdraw my earlier comment. Thank you for the thorough spanking. Can we do it again soon?

(ouch. 715 / 37 = 19.324... )
posted by SpecialK at 9:38 PM on April 10, 2005

11.25 :( shame
posted by puke & cry at 9:44 PM on April 10, 2005

orthogonality, you are absolutely correct and completely wrong at the same time.

From what I understood, Riffola was bemoaning the loss of the inherent trust factor that was in existence when MeFi was a closed community, but did not necessarily equate that with posting histories in the way you describe. For a community to work, all the members of that community have to contribute - in our case, the currency is words on a screen. When you ask a question, you make a withdrawal and when you answer one or post a new thread or comment, you make a deposit. Simple maths shows that we have to deposit more on average than we withdraw or the community withers. While some members have contributed in dollars as well (or instead of), I don't think that money is as critical to the continued success/failure of the community (however you measure it) as contribution by the members is.

With an AskMe ratio of only 52.16, perhaps I don't have the right to criticise you, though?
posted by dg at 10:08 PM on April 10, 2005

so how do we know these "drive-by users" won't contribute anything in the future?
posted by puke & cry at 10:17 PM on April 10, 2005

dg writes " With an AskMe ratio of only 52.16, perhaps I don't have the right to criticise you, though?"

No, no, no. My point was that we shouldn't be measuring one another based on numbers of posts.

You always have a right to criticize me (or anyone else), and in certain cases I'd argue you have a duty to do so as well.

A question shouldn't be evaluated by who asked it, anymore than a statement should be. If someone who I think is a Laughable_Fool_at_Metafilter says that the speed of light in a vacuum is about 299,792,458 meters per second, he's right, regardless of my opinion of him. If the Vicar of Christ himself says that Jupiter's moos don't move, he's wrong, regardless of his exalted position.

A good question is a good question whether asked by a complete newbie or by user number one, mathowie, himself.

dg writes "For a community to work, all the members of that community have to contribute - in our case, the currency is words on a screen. When you ask a question, you make a withdrawal and when you answer one or post a new thread or comment, you make a deposit."

I agree with your first sentence, but I don't believe that (despite my sarcasm about ratios) that a question is a withdraw. A question adds to the community as much as an answer does.

Let's remember the purpose of AskMefi: it's not only to answer the questioner, but to provide an archive of well-answered questions. If you answer a newbie's good question, you're helping, not only the questioner, but anyone, member or not, who needs a similar question answered. It's pretty clear, from his deletions of both questions and answers, that that is precisely what mathowie intends for AskMefi: a resource, an archive, that's useful for members and non-members alike.

So a question, no matter who asks it, is basically as good as the answers it gets. And that question, no matter who asks it, helps Mefi to the extent that it gets good answers.

In another context, I was much maligned for saying that a post is, basically, as good as its comments. I stand by that even more strongly, here. What makes the MetaFilter community useful is what community members put into it, in their comments and their answers.

Not answering good questions asked by a newbie doesn't hurt the newbie as much as it hurts our Mefi community.
posted by orthogonality at 10:29 PM on April 10, 2005

MetaFilter is and always was a community weblog, usenet has a different approach, there it really is free for all. Here building a community and maintaining one ought to be an important factor too. A lot of people who are regulars here eventually became familiar with the active section of the community. It's natural that it will take time for the newer members to develop enough of a history to make themselves recognisable, that's perfectly ok.

My issue is with people asking questions without engaging in other aspects of the site is that they take from the community without returning anything back. Asking a question is not as important a contribution, as the answers are.

Someone said above, if they ask a question and then stick around because they liked what they saw and start being part of the community, that is fine too. But if someone is only using the site to ask questions, such as rje7's 3 questions without any comments history when the thread started, then that's sort of not nice.

Also I haven't yet not answered a question because it was asked by someone new. I just happened to see some new names on the Ask MeFi frontpage, and looked at their profiles to see who they were when I spotted by the drive-by members.
posted by riffola at 10:41 PM on April 10, 2005

They're giving five bucks, which is more than most people here have given.

now that's a completely unsupportable statement.
posted by quonsar at 10:41 PM on April 10, 2005

Please don't bother waving your dicks around about contribution ratios. Mine is vast, possibly among the highest on the site^*, and the only authority it gives me is that to whine definitively about people who transgress the guidelines in ignorance or malice.

Treating Ask like a zero sum game, with deposits and withdrawals is silly. Without both question and answer activity it simply won't be what it is. All that matters is the quality of question asked and answer given. All else is merely bullshit layered on top.

^* something on the order of 212.
posted by majick at 10:44 PM on April 10, 2005

I'm only going to answer questions from people whose user names start with "q".

*preens*
posted by quonsar at 10:45 PM on April 10, 2005

riffola writes "Also I haven't yet not answered a question because it was asked by someone new"

And to his credit, riffola doesn't take things too personally and has a good sense of humor.
posted by orthogonality at 10:45 PM on April 10, 2005

As riffola indicated, "newbie" really isn't the right term here. Someone who is a new member is really different than someone who paid five bucks so they could ask questions.

I know I cringed when I read that Lifehacker blurb about AskMe, which basically said something like "for $5 get your questions answered by the smartest people on the internet!"

Obvious hyperbole aside, I don't think most people here want to answer questions as though they were working at a Sam's Club for inquiries. Many of us also did not necessarily approach the project primarily with the idea of building an impersonal answer database, though this may indeed be how it evolves.
posted by taz at 10:54 PM on April 10, 2005

One good thing about having a long posting history is I know riffola well enough from his comments to give him the benefit of the doubt here, though I disagree, and not jump on his ass like some others (who I am less reason not to immediately dismiss) are trying to do.
posted by Hildago at 10:57 PM on April 10, 2005

You make some good points, orthogonality and I won't disagree with any of them, but I think roffola makes the point I was trying to make better than I could just above. To many, MeFi is more than a source of information, it is a community and that is a hard thing to define in a few words.

majick, my use of ratios was not intended to be serious - I cannot speak for orthogonality on that score, though (but I hope he was not serious either).

They're giving five bucks, which is more than most people here have given.
Not only unsupportable, but quite insulting to the many who have given a lot more than 5 bucks.
posted by dg at 10:58 PM on April 10, 2005

ok, if quonsar is in on this, then he owes everyone $1,000,000!

that should do it.
posted by puke & cry at 11:03 PM on April 10, 2005

[My contribution ratio] is vast, possibly among the highest on the site [something on the order of 212]

212 isn't vast. Vast starts right around, oh, 330. 339.25 is really good. Someone with an even bigger dick will be along in a few minutes, I'm sure, but I'll agree with those who don't see anything that needs changing right at the moment.
posted by kindall at 11:27 PM on April 10, 2005

My original suggestion (possibly not - I've been known to update my own history before) was that we place the number of questions and answers for a user on the comments page for that question. This would allow us more selfish members to make our own call about whether we answer questions.

If I remember correctly, people were quite, quite angry about the suggestion.

I've no problem with 1 question, 0 answers. When I see that a user has asked 6 questions in the last two months and not contributed a single answer I feel slightly aggrieved. These people are abusing the resources of the many, many fantastic answerers on the site.

b.t.w, my rather meagre ratio of 26 is inflated by a complete inability to answer a question in one comment. So I guess I've just shamed myself into answering more and asking less.
posted by seanyboy at 12:29 AM on April 11, 2005

If they had to "contribute" (comment) beforehand, I suspect it would add mosting noise comments.

I totally agree. If we start forcing users to comment before/after asking a question so that they can get another shot, we're going to get a lot of "I agree" or "I think it's this" type of posts, which hurts AskMe a lot worse than a comment to post ratio of 0.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 4:36 AM on April 11, 2005

And here was me thinking that an AskMe ratio of ~75 meant I was a hyperinflated egomaniac but now I find I'm a community builder.
*dons party hat and groucho apparel*
posted by peacay at 4:55 AM on April 11, 2005

we're going to get a lot of "I agree" ... posts

I agree.
posted by mischief at 5:14 AM on April 11, 2005

.
posted by grouse at 5:39 AM on April 11, 2005

what grouse said.
posted by taz at 6:44 AM on April 11, 2005

If they had to "contribute" (comment) beforehand, I suspect it would add most[ly] noise comments.

I totally agree. If we start forcing users to comment before/after asking a question so that they can get another shot, we're going to get a lot of "I agree" or "I think it's this" type of posts, which hurts AskMe a lot worse than a comment to post ratio of 0.

I agree too, and I think it's an important point that deserves emphasizing. There are already too damn many people who bound enthusiastically into AskMe threads, wagging their tails, eager to contribute, regardless of the fact they know absolutely nothing about the subject. "What's this?" "I don't know, but maybe it's Iranian/alien/an inkblot!" What AskMe needs is 1) good questions and 2) good answers. I don't give a damn who's asking the question (except that I'm more likely to pay attention if it's a poster I particularly like), and I can't understand why it matters. If you don't have time to answer a question, or just don't feel like it, don't. If you look at the question and think "Ooh, I know that!" and look forward to spreading your knowledge, then answer it. What difference does it make whether the asker is a Long-Time MeFite or not?

Just to emphasize the main point, right now there are too many people answering because they're thinking "Gee, I don't know, but I feel like saying something anyway"; do you really want the number of useless answers vastly increased by people wanting to up their contribution index so people will answer their questions? Think about it.
posted by languagehat at 6:51 AM on April 11, 2005

dflemingdotorg writes "I totally agree. If we start forcing users to comment before/after asking a question so that they can get another shot, we're going to get a lot of 'I agree' or 'I think it's this' type of posts, which hurts AskMe a lot worse than a comment to post ratio of 0."

I totally agree. If we start forcing users to comment before/after asking a question so that they can get another shot, we're going to get a lot of "I agree" or "I think it's this" type of posts, which hurts AskMe a lot worse than a comment to post ratio of 0.
posted by orthogonality at 8:54 AM on April 11, 2005

The communal feeling of this site that I enjoyed is suffering in the process.

I grow weary of this argument. It seems to me that many times when someone's pleased or annoyed about something without a very good reason, they trot out "it's good for the community" or "it's bad for the community." Generally, this assertion has little or no meaning. It's the new "the terrorists have already won."
posted by anapestic at 9:22 AM on April 11, 2005

90.67 - I guess I have a medium sized dick.
posted by deborah at 10:27 AM on April 11, 2005

It seems to me that many times when someone's pleased or annoyed about something without a very good reason, they trot out "it's good for the community" or "it's bad for the community." Generally, this assertion has little or no meaning. It's the new "the terrorists have already won."

I'd say having people join this community simply to ask questions and get the benefit of our knowledge (which we freely share because we're a community) is not such a good thing. It's not meaningless at all.
posted by amberglow at 10:48 AM on April 11, 2005

As a community our knowledge, experience and intelligence dimishes the more we expend it on those outside the community.

Jesus, what are we? The borg?
posted by dodgygeezer at 11:48 AM on April 11, 2005

The software I'm recalling was also I believe GPL. 140/3=46.67.
orthogonality: Woah there, soldier.
posted by seanyboy at 3:05 PM on April 11, 2005

I was wondering what that bit of math at the end of orthogonality's AskMe comment was - seanyboy links to it. I'm somehow confused by this. It's obviously his to-date posting ratio on AskMe, but what was the point?
posted by raedyn at 3:23 PM on April 11, 2005

Amber ... does it diminish us, in any way, to give answers to these hit-and-run questioners?

I suggest that it doesn't. It adds to our prestige as "the smartest people on the internet." It adds to the googlebility of the site. And it gives $5 to Matt. And there's a slight chance that these hit-and-run people will stick around. It's all good.
posted by crunchland at 3:25 PM on April 11, 2005

Crunchland, just to argue from the other side, some other things it does is:

Increases the number of bad and redundant questions
Misrepresents the nature of the site
Drives previous questions off the front page faster (thus in theory decreasing the quality of responses over all)

I don't think it's all good, I think there's some complexity to the issue whether you think that it is generally good or bad.
posted by Hildago at 4:10 PM on April 11, 2005

When I see that a user has asked 6 questions in the last two months and not contributed a single answer I feel slightly aggrieved. These people are abusing the resources of the many, many fantastic answerers on the site.

Where are you seeing these users' posting histories? Oh right, you're taking time to look it up. Why? If you don't like seeing it, STOP LOOKING UP THE POSTING HISTORY OF EVERYBODY WHO ASKS A QUESTION.

Seriously, you and riff are acting like there's some neon sign on every post and poster that makes it so you can't help but notice that they haven't answered any questions or posted anywhere but on AskMe. What this amounts to is that you have this weird little pet peeve, and you go around looking for examples of it for whatever reason and get all worked up about something you actually have to TRY to see.

"Doctor, it hurts when I poke myself in the eye."

"... don't poke yourself in the eye."
posted by shmegegge at 4:32 PM on April 11, 2005

This smells an awful lot like a watered down version of the "I wish MeFi were closed again," argument.
posted by shmegegge at 4:35 PM on April 11, 2005

I think right now, there are five questions on the front page of AskMe by people who have done little but ask questions on MeFi. They are all 23k+ members who've been around less than a month, so perhaps they're just getting their feet wet in the friendliest part of MetaFilter. It might be a bit soon to determine that they're stowaways on the information superhighway.

If you don't want these upstarts to steal your knowledge, then by all means don't answer their questions. It seems a particularly unwelcoming attitude to me, as well as one that makes no sense, but you certainly don't have to share your hard-earned wisdom with people who haven't paid their dues or made the enormous contributions to the community that you've made.
posted by anapestic at 4:40 PM on April 11, 2005

It's not about paying dues or making enormous contributions. Stop misrepresenting, pls. And it's not about newbies or upstarts either--we welcome new people who want to be part of Metafilter--that's the point: be part of the community--don't just come here to ask questions without giving anything back. It's shitty.
posted by amberglow at 4:56 PM on April 11, 2005

don't just come here to ask questions without giving anything back. It's shitty.

How shitty? So shitty you can't help but notice it? Oh wait, it's not that shitty.

In fact, seanyboy and riffola have noticed, but no one else seems to have. And they had to go and look up individual posting histories to even find out that it was happening. How hurt is your sense of community if there's no way for you to know it's happening without looking for it? Do you bear the weight of all the MeFi members on your shoulders such that you can't hold the weight of a few you never see or hear from? Or maybe you have an innate "community sense" that diminishes whenever someone posts a question without having answered any first?

Or maybe you guys need to chill. No, the word community is not meaningless, but the way you guys are throwing the term around here is quickly rendering it so.
posted by shmegegge at 5:17 PM on April 11, 2005

This smells an awful lot like a watered down version of the "I wish MeFi were closed again," argument.
Well, now that you have brought it up .... ;-)

There seems to be a desire on the part of some here to represent others as mean-spirited or as looking down on others just because they have not been around as long as some. This is not the case at all - it is a matter of wanting things to be fair - if you take from the community, you have to give as well. In days of yore, you could not expect everyone else in the community to help bring your crops in unless you were prepared to help in turn. Same here. While there is some merit in the idea that questions are a resource that is being added to the store, questions are only useful if they are answered - if everyone decided to only ask questions instead of answering them, the questions would be the complete opposite of a useful resource.
posted by dg at 5:18 PM on April 11, 2005

While we're at it, let's lynch all those who come here mainly to read links, occasionally to leave a comment, and almost never to submit a FPP.

We know who you are! ;-P
posted by mischief at 5:21 PM on April 11, 2005

Noise or signal ? - that is the (only relevant) question irrespective of member#, penis size, AskMe ratio, voting intention, skateboarding stance, hair colour, disability, peccadillo, farming experience, age, cooking expertise,musical taste, tech ability, height, religion, marriage status, criminal record, salary, IQ or attitude to ever-so-modest whisking of the buttock cheeks on a balmy night with a handtooled #9 rattaan cane by your favourite nubian loveslave!
posted by peacay at 5:44 PM on April 11, 2005

This is not the case at all - it is a matter of wanting things to be fair - if you take from the community, you have to give as well. In days of yore, you could not expect everyone else in the community to help bring your crops in unless you were prepared to help in turn. Same here.

So don't help them bring in their crops. But you're not content to stop at that. You want to make sure that their crops don't get brought in. If other people are happy to answer their questions, where's the harm?

You haven't, to begin with, demonstrated that there's a problem, merely some resentment from people who want to exact an additional admission price to the community sanctuary. There have always been more and less involved members here. I don't recall a lot of complaining about people who read but didn't comment.
posted by anapestic at 5:46 PM on April 11, 2005

People who read but don't comment aren't asking stuff of us. Again, there's a difference. i think dg has it exactly right: if you take from the community, you have to give as well.

Call it the Bittorrent principle if you like.
posted by amberglow at 5:57 PM on April 11, 2005

This smells an awful lot like a watered down version of the "I wish MeFi were closed again," argument.

I wish MeFi were closed again.

I wish MeFi were closed again.

I wish MeFi were closed again.

*opens eyes*

Shit.
posted by bingo at 7:51 PM on April 11, 2005

As a newcomer to MeFi, I feel compelled to register my opinion and experience here, unwelcome as it may be (irony, irony, ok? um, or is it?). I'm pretty sure no one is listening anymore anyway.

First of all, I want you all to know that I read every goddam post in this thread, even though reading the first half dozen would have done the job.

My confession: After I'd ponied up the fiver and waited the week, my first official act as a MeFite manqué was to post a burning question on AskMe. No one knew the answer, but several people were kind enough to try. Now I'm wondering how many of you peckers knew the answer but withheld it out of spite. Fie.

Since then my dick has grown, little by little. I'm up to a size 10 now. If I know the answer, or a good answer, I pipe up. If not, I do my best to control myself. In short, in spite of having started in exactly the worst way, I am proving to be less than completely useless. I confess to harboring some hurt feelings about being prejudged.

For the record, I find AskMe much more entertaining and informative than MeFi proper, which I followed for years before being allowed into the sanctum. I relish the questions, and the (nominal) practicality of the comments. I find the no-snark rule a bit of a hardship, and I wonder if perhaps that's all that is really needed to restore the sense of community for those who miss it: permission to administer lashings to persons who deserve them. Maybe said permission could be meted out in proportion to dick size.
posted by bricoleur at 8:12 PM on April 11, 2005

Now I'm wondering how many of you peckers knew the answer but withheld it out of spite. Fie.

Once more, for those who were not listening:

Nobody has stated, whispered or even remotely hinted that they have or would withhold an answer to a question out of spite or for any other reason. The fact that anyone thinks any of the members speaking up in this thread could keep an opinion to themselves at the best of times indicates a lack of understanding of the typical MeFite. When we have something to say, we say it - loud and proud. We often wish we hadn't later, but such is life.

There are lots pf people who get what riffola is saying and lots who don't. I suspect that never the twain shall meet.

*shrug*
posted by dg at 8:23 PM on April 11, 2005

We're listening, bricoleur, and in no way do most of us mean to be bashing new community members or wanting the doors closed. You yourself admitted you'd been following the blue for years (as most of us had done). You knew this was a multi-faceted place--something we're not sure people only asking questions (and not answering or contributing in the blue or gray) know.

and what dg said--again. we're all bigmouths here, and pipe in all the time.
posted by amberglow at 8:39 PM on April 11, 2005

I get what riffola is saying, but that doesn't change my opinion that he is full of shit. And himself.

... and for goodness sake, get that mirror out of my face! ;-P
posted by mischief at 8:41 PM on April 11, 2005

Hey Amber -- on your recent trip to Montreal, did you do anything to build up the community of that city while you were there? Build any bridges? Start any new businesses? Buy a house? Join a church? Vote in their elections? Marry any of their daughters? Father any children?

Or did you show up, drop a few dollars, eat their food, drink their wine, sleep in their beds, take advantage of their hospitality, and then leave?
posted by crunchland at 9:44 PM on April 11, 2005

In days of yore, you could not expect everyone else in the community to help bring your crops in unless you were prepared to help in turn. Same here.

Or not.

Since when is AskMe some limited resource that we all need to regulate the doling out of? This is assanine. You can dismiss the "a question contributes to the resource" argument all you like, but it's true. "If everyone only asked, without answering..." is a slippery slope fallacy. AskMe is exactly as you've described it, and there isn't any rampant abuse where no one's answering. A learning resource of this kind polices itself in this regard. If no one answered, then no one would ask. It either gets people who contribute or it dies. It's not dead, so these no answer quetionners aren't really doing any harm.

Oh, and the wink emoticon is just an excuse to say exactly what you mean while maintaining the ability to say "I was just kidding! See the wink emoticon?" So, fine. You wish MeFi was closed. We'll miss you when you stop coming by. ;)
posted by shmegegge at 10:22 PM on April 11, 2005

shmegegge, stop yelling, it's unneccessary. When I see an unfamiliar username, I look it up, too, to see if it's somebody new or somebody I just hadn't seen posting before.

(And by your own logic, if it bothers you so much for someone to ask MetaFilter related questions in MetaTalk, then by all means, don't read MetaTalk.)

yelling: sorry, mostly I just forget that it means yelling. I use it the same way I use a bold or italics most of the time. for emphasis.

unfamiliar usernames: how many are unfamiliar to you, of the more than 20,000 who have an account?

As far as the metatalk comparison goes, I read metatalk because a lot of what happens here is about MeFi and how it's run. I learn a lot reading it and try to contribute something valuable. That's far more defensible than "I read user histories to see if they've contributed answers before they question because it's a pet peeve of mine." See, the two don't actually compare.
posted by shmegegge at 10:27 PM on April 11, 2005

An optimist might say that for every person that asks and runs, there could be a person that lurks until seeing the one question they know the exact answer to, and then needing to respond. Is contributing nothing but one question any worse than nothing but one answer? I imagine that anyone willing to pony up the $5, then waiting a week, for a one-off has a pretty good post, be it q or a.

However-- that same optimist might also think that FPP images & self-links in the Blue will someday subside on their own, even with open registration, so what the fuck does she know?
posted by obloquy at 10:54 PM on April 11, 2005

"You knew this was a multi-faceted place--something we're not sure people only asking questions (and not answering or contributing in the blue or gray) know."

amberglow: That was my point, really—we're (if I may be so bold as to include myself in the we) not sure, but some of us are certainly in a hurry to jump to a certain conclusion.

You also seem to raise a new form of the objection here. Are you suggesting that a proper MeFite must contribute in all three areas? That seems a lot to ask. Especially since the blue is, it often seems, dominated by entrenched elder statesmen. As I noted in my first comment, I get far more out of the green. On the blue, when I see a post that looks interesting, as I start my cursor toward the comments link a little voice pops up and says, "Oh, but you can guess already what the comments will be—and who will be making them." It's predictable. AskMe isn't, so much.

Someone who pays her money and asks her question may be committing the kind of abuse you and riffola are worried about (and I agree that in the extreme case it does constitute, if not abuse, at least rudeness), but why assume the worst? As others have pointed out, if someone with all the resources of the internets at her disposal has the attention span to pay five dollars and then wait a whole week for gratification, it seems unlikely to me that she's a slambam artist. That feature, it seems to me, is the elegant solution to the problem; i.e., the problem has already been solved. Imagine AskMe without that, and you can imagine real abuse.

And even if someone's posting record, after a month or two, is all questions and no answers, where exactly is the harm? Maybe he doesn't know any of the answers. And of course questions are contributions. Good luck with the answers if you don't have any questions.

I agree that questions slide off the home page too quickly, but I think that's a separate issue, which perhaps deserves its own thread. I for one get really bummed if there're no new questions when I hit refresh—especially if it's been a while since I've seen one I thought I could answer.
posted by bricoleur at 4:57 AM on April 12, 2005

I don't know what "a proper MeFite" is, but i think the reason people are interested in joining might have changed (or might be changing), to be an AskMe-driven thing--esp. with the publicity it's gotten. I think that's a shame, and changes this to a transactional place instead of a community, which could benefit from them being more part of it.

as for Montreal, crunch: Beyond the usual vacation stuff: We had the first ever Montreal meetup, people were brought together, and i had a wonderful, hours-long conversation with a woman who teaches kids visiting the Architecture Museum--we both learned things. And of course, i leave a lasting impression wherever i go. (Vacations are inherently more selfish tho, and that's why they're not called "Communities"--different rules apply)
posted by amberglow at 6:07 AM on April 12, 2005

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