breaking news does not override policy July 4, 2003 2:41 PM   Subscribe

No, I'm just reading a shitty front page. Oh, do excuse me. I completely forgot that a dead celebrity overrides the requirement to actually have a link in your FPP. Honestly, I should be dragged through the street and shot for my audacity.
posted by XQUZYPHYR to Etiquette/Policy at 2:41 PM (93 comments total)

Personal skin-thinness aside, after four or five "someone died" FPPs in the last month or so, is it so much to suggest that since you know a story link will come up for it you wait to actually post a viable story link? It actually gives content to FPPs several would already be angry at and accuse of being "newsfilter" and the worst that can happen by you waiting a few minutes is that (gasp!) someone else posts it first.

I'm very disheartened by Barry White's death, but I could have waited fifteen minutes to be given actual details with the announcement. This wasn't really as breaking as the 9/11 thread.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 2:45 PM on July 4, 2003


ok, you're right. the least the poster could do (w/o any current news items) was to place a link or two to white's legacy.
posted by poopy at 2:49 PM on July 4, 2003


Does this mean I have to find a link for my Happy Birthday America, You Waylayer of All That is Right thread?
posted by The God Complex at 2:51 PM on July 4, 2003


O, puh-leeeze....

XQUZYPHYR - gracious is as gracious does, as my ole gran would have said, had she been a Mefite, which she wasn't, 'cos she died before the Interweb was invented, and anyway they never even had phones back in the villages of southern Limerick, and also she wasn't exactly aware of the existence of Philly, let alone soul music, I'm not even sure she'd ever met a black person actually, nor an american, tho' she had a certain distaste for Margaret Thatcher, of whom she once said "I'd shoot her feckin' hole out", but that's just friendly banter really...

Where was I? Oh yeah, take a chill pill, as my ole gran would have said...
posted by dash_slot- at 2:52 PM on July 4, 2003


A feckin' chill pill?
posted by dgaicun at 2:57 PM on July 4, 2003


I merely heard the news briefly on the radio. I had a quick look around the web for links, but there was none, apart from on the BBC's news ticker (which simply said, 'Barry White, dead at 56. More soon' and linked to nothing). I therefore posted without a link as I was just about to pop out for an hour or so.

When I returned, little did I know what a furore my little posting had created.

Perhaps XQUZYPHYR would like to be a little less crass when derailing an honest, obituary thread next time.
posted by metaxa at 2:57 PM on July 4, 2003


problem solved. no harm, no fowl. mmmmm......fowl....
posted by poopy at 3:00 PM on July 4, 2003


Other members posted links within ten minutes, so the argument that the news hadn't hit the news sites was a bit disingenuous. If nothing else, waiting would have allowed metaxa to post, correctly, that Barry White was dead at 58.

No one has a monopoly on snippiness here, by the way.
posted by mcwetboy at 3:01 PM on July 4, 2003


Well XQUUUUUZYPHYR me.

sorry
posted by Pretty_Generic at 3:02 PM on July 4, 2003


metaxa, I'm not trying to attack you, but like I said the comment attacking me just really rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't realize I was being crass, as I meant exactly what I said: you could have waited to see an actual link before posting. And I don't see why you're upset that your link was changed.

Nevertheless, I'm sorry if I offended you, so dash_slot's aforementioned chill pill has been taken, notably in suppository form to help destroy the apparent bug lodged in my ass. 'Kay?
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 3:03 PM on July 4, 2003


Gah. I give up! What's two years between friends!
posted by metaxa at 3:05 PM on July 4, 2003


XQUZYPHYR, no worries. It's been a long day (it's 23:07 here).
posted by metaxa at 3:08 PM on July 4, 2003


I still say that FPPs should be delayed 24 hours between the user submitting them and them getting displayed. Surefire way to cut out the current events stuff as there's no way to instantly gratify one's poor post via the comments.

This will never happen.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:10 PM on July 4, 2003


a good honest obituary post?

When did such a thing become good enough to warrant its own post?
posted by Space Coyote at 3:14 PM on July 4, 2003


I don't think XQUZYPHYR's comment in the thread was over the line at all. Did the post (before editing) link to anything at all? I thought there was coding in place to prevent that from happening.
posted by iconomy at 3:16 PM on July 4, 2003


yes iconomy...it linked to mefi
posted by poopy at 3:20 PM on July 4, 2003


you know, metaxa, you didn't have to post just because you were popping out. i mean, you could probably have guessed that others would know soon enough, and maybe then a decent link would have been ready. if it was that important, someone else would have posted the news.

or was it all about getting to the front page first? in the excitement of it all? or is posting to mefi a way of ameliorating your grief as you "popped out" while sobbing into your hanky?

and then you're not "overly happy" with the post being fixed? your day must be truly full of grief...
posted by andrew cooke at 3:25 PM on July 4, 2003


XQUZ made a perfectly good point in a not-totally-nice way

it happens.

and yes, since we're talking about Barry White's death (btw all his hardcore fans knew that the man had been very very sick since last year so it really couldn't be a surprise) maybe waiting five or ten minutes to avoid posting a linkless, pancakeish fpp couldn't hurt

as pointed out already, it's not 9-11, thank God. we can wait a few more minutes.

and now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to listen to Barry's basso profundo for a couple hours at the very least
posted by matteo at 3:31 PM on July 4, 2003


MetaFilter: ameliorating your grief and sobbing into your hanky

Count me in the crowd that is puzzled by simple factual FPPs, at least without some additional background material linkage. In this case, maybe he had a personal or record company website, allmusic.com, or some cool old article from Ebony or Rolling Stone.
posted by billsaysthis at 3:34 PM on July 4, 2003


At times like today (when we actually had TWO FFPs with links to google.com), I appreciate the contributions of someone like XQUZwhatever as "designated cranky old guy", who saves the rest of us from posting 'smackdown' comments, and, by going a little over-the-top, gives us a chance to feel a little superior to somebody other than the googleheads who put up bad posts ('cause they only deserve our pity). Anyway, XQUZYPHYRBTFSPLK, I totally non-sarcasticly salute you.

dash-slot(dash), I wouldn't appreciate being told to "take a chill pill" from someone who threatens to "shoot (Margaret Thatcher's) feckin' hole out". These days, your gran might've ended up in a jail cell with a bunch of Muslims...

And metaxa, yeah, somebody else would've posted it a few minutes later. I'm sure there were a couple MeFites poised and waiting for the first headline to hit CNN... Your post WAS the MeFi equivalent of hitting the buzzer before Alex Trebek finishes reading the questionanswer.

And to the rest of you, I know it's the Fourth of July, but does that excuse such lazy posting? Maybe we should let Miguel do TWO posts a day on American holidays...
posted by wendell at 3:36 PM on July 4, 2003


I mean, what a fuckin' crybaby.
posted by dcgartn at 3:43 PM on July 4, 2003


A feckin' crybaby?
posted by dgaicun at 3:59 PM on July 4, 2003


What is Metafilter?

"The point of MetaFilter is to filter the web for interesting things, to find the novel among the mess."

--Mathowie
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 4:05 PM on July 4, 2003


Make sure you're linking to something on the web.

For fuck's sake, people, this isn't rocket science.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:12 PM on July 4, 2003


Honestly, I should be dragged through the street and shot for my audacity.

If you have to ask, then yes.
posted by dcgartn at 4:20 PM on July 4, 2003


Right. Fine. Whatever.

Consider my wrists slapped, it won't happen again.

In the immortal words of Cartman; "Screw you guys, I'm going home".
posted by metaxa at 4:28 PM on July 4, 2003


Sensible is as sensible does, wendell, as my dear ole terrorist gran would have said, if she hadnt already been executed in some soulless godforsaken chicken wire deathrow in a stolen piece of a carribean island off the coast of Florida. Thankfully, many of the yankee executioners appreciated her stand-up routine, honed in the gin joints of Tipperary, where she demonstrated the old truism that the Irish, Scots, Welsh and English always laughed heartily whilst slashing each others legs. My gran asked me, just before she was eviscarated, to inform anyone still reading that she didn't tell anyone to take a chill pill, that that was her ingrate Anglo descendant, as you'll also see I properly credited her with the crime of "desiring to maliciously, and with aforethought, empty the feckin magazine of a Tommy gun into the naughty bits of a former prime minister of a fading European power", which carries a double life sentence without hope of powell. I am innocent of said charge (I am merely guilty of "desiring to empty the contents of a Parisian magasin, with or without malice or aforethought, into the mindspace of berks in foreign parts.")

Lord knows what my sentence might be, but gran kept her pit tidy, so I hear there's still a little space in the wonderful american prison system for absurdians and surreallers. Hope they've got broadband.

Where was I? O yeah, hang loose, as my ole gran used to say....

posted by dash_slot- at 5:57 PM on July 4, 2003


Groan.

Fallacious is as fallacious does, as my old logic tutor used to say...

posted by dash_slot- at 6:08 PM on July 4, 2003


dash_slot-, it's over already. the diatribe is dead. go home for fucks sake.
posted by poopy at 6:38 PM on July 4, 2003


XQUZ made a perfectly good point in a not-totally-nice way

And why should he be nice? metaxa has been here over two years, ferchrissake, he's not some poor newbie who has to be babied. If there's one firm rule around here, it's not posting without a link. Personally, I would have been even less nice.

Screw you guys, I'm going to California.

On preview:
Nothing is over! Nothing! You just don't turn it off!
posted by languagehat at 6:46 PM on July 4, 2003


"Ooh, Fight!" ;-P
posted by mischief at 6:47 PM on July 4, 2003


Welcome to the Hotel Metafilter...
posted by konolia at 7:36 PM on July 4, 2003




I still say that FPPs should be delayed 24 hours between the user submitting them and them getting displayed. Surefire way to cut out the current events stuff as there's no way to instantly gratify one's poor post via the comments.


It's a cool thought, but I expect that you might actually end up with more quasi-current events FPPs.... some folks would still submit them, but wouldn't know if someone else had submitted them until they all hit the front page 24 hours later.

Nope, I think it's better to just repeat: no linkless posts.
posted by namespan at 10:43 PM on July 4, 2003


It's a cool thought, but I expect that you might actually end up with more quasi-current events FPPs.... some folks would still submit them, but wouldn't know if someone else had submitted them until they all hit the front page 24 hours later.

Not only that, but consider the potential avalanche of non-events related posts that are just making their rounds as a meme. Like, say, the "These Weapons of Mass Destruction Cannot Be Found" meme or "Saddam Challenges Bush to a Duel" or "Traffic Simulation".
posted by weston at 12:10 AM on July 5, 2003


True enough. I think it's probably safe to say, however, that any medium that allows people to broadcast to a large audience instantaneously will be better suited for posting current events than for posting 'best of the web' content. I'll have to contact Mr McLuhen and ask his thoughts, but I think NewsFilter is here to stay.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:22 AM on July 5, 2003

I think NewsFilter is here to stay.
We established that months ago.
posted by mischief at 12:55 AM on July 5, 2003


Space Coyote, I think you have discovered the Metafilter Unified Field Theory:
Any medium that allows people to broadcast to a large audience instantaneously will be better suited for posting current events than for posting 'best of the web' content.
(Expect me to quote you at least once in every subsequent MetaTalk thread for the next year)
posted by wendell at 12:56 AM on July 5, 2003


And why should he be nice? metaxa has been here over two years, ferchrissake, he's not some poor newbie who has to be babied. If there's one firm rule around here, it's not posting without a link. Personally, I would have been even less nice.

Hey!
posted by Hildago at 12:57 AM on July 5, 2003


Wow, poopy, I'll run my diatribes past you before publication in future (do you offer that service to all?)

That was uncalled for, poopy. As clearly no-one ever told you. Next time you miss the point, don't forget - it's only a website, eh.

Have a better day today, won't you?
posted by dash_slot- at 2:52 AM on July 5, 2003


Nope, I think it's better to just repeat: no linkless posts.


No linkless posts!! But linkless posts represent MetaFilter's finest.
posted by dgaicun at 3:28 AM on July 5, 2003


well this is a self-policing site isn't it? so it's good, or bad, depending on how you like it. *gets out truncheon*
posted by mokey at 3:45 AM on July 5, 2003


Hey! Put that truncheon back inside your pants where it belongs!

So. No linkless posts. Ever. Except for sometimes. This actually makes complete sense to me, and must be why matt doesn't ever want to say "never". This, however, wasn't one of those 'sometimes".
posted by taz at 4:54 AM on July 5, 2003


i apologize dash_slot-, sincerely. i had no right or reason to say that and it was i who should've stayed away from the computer. i don't even know why the hell i said it except that maybe i was watching donnie darko at the time. man, that fucking rabbit is scary.
posted by poopy at 6:33 AM on July 5, 2003


Absolutely no worries, bruv. Gone in 60 seconds (",)
posted by dash_slot- at 7:01 AM on July 5, 2003

problem solved. no harm, no fowl. mmmmm......fowl....
posted by poopy at 3:00 PM PST on July 4
Actually, poopy the harm is that it encourages other MeFites to make these breathless non-link posts (and Matt to edit them so they conform to da rulez)
And I don't see why you're upset that your link was changed. . .
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 3:03 PM PST on July 4
I think metaxa is lucky the obitfilter linkless post was not just deleted by Matt. I'm assuming Matt edited instead of deleted it due to the number of positive comments (made by members who either don't care about da rulez or never read da rulez)

Of course by 'da rulez' I mean the MetaFilter guidelines.
posted by DBAPaul at 7:24 AM on July 5, 2003


In my comment that seems to have initiated this thing, I hope I didn't convey disrespect for the rules. It was an inappropriate post. But...

No link as the news sites haven't got hard details yet

Perhaps you can Wait ten minutes then. I mean, it's not like you think they're not going to post the story.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 5:06 PM EST on July 4


preceded (in a deleted thread) by:


This is now a TRIPLE POST.

Stop it now.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 4:04 PM EST on July 4

Okay, and I'm really not one to enjoy the "dogpile on the double poster" thing, but for Christ's sakes. Google. You fucking FPPed GOOGLE. In what world did you even remotely rationalize that this was a good post?
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 4:07 PM EST on July 4

seemed a little heavy-handed to me. I understand bad moods, but the combination of MeFi policing combined with bad moods is detrimental to civility. There's no reason the rules can't be enforced in a more tactful way.
posted by stonerose at 8:22 AM on July 5, 2003


Maybe it's time for Matt to become curmudgeonly. He could bitch-slap those who post stupid FPPs by banning them for a day. (A day is all that would be needed, given the angst created by MeFi's absence earlier this week!)

Personally, I'm beginning to like the "pay Matt a buck to FPP" idea. It's obviously too cheap and easy to post crap to MeFi, and a good number of people are too selfish or stupid to restrain themselves.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:14 AM on July 5, 2003


Lightbulb time: Pay Matt $1 to post to the front page, and any users who think that the post is good could pay the poster something like $.01-$.05. Miguel could quit his day job I'm sure.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:19 AM on July 5, 2003


or we could sell him into slavery if we got to ding him.
posted by crunchland at 9:34 AM on July 5, 2003


I thought MetaTalk was his dayjob.
posted by Dark Messiah at 9:48 AM on July 5, 2003


or we could sell him into slavery if we got to ding him.

I hear he'd make a swell cabana boy.
posted by konolia at 9:59 AM on July 5, 2003


stonerose: the rules are simple, common-sense, and easy-to-follow.

As far as XQ goes: "but for Christ's sakes. Google. You fucking FPPed GOOGLE"-- It's just hilarious. I nearly lost my coffee-- because I was thinking the exact same thing (with slightly less funny syntax). As far as heavy-handedness goes-- this site hasn't seen new users in some time. Ignorance of the rules is no excuse. And there's no secret cabal, awarding Stonecutter memberships to people who post to the front page first or most often.

As far as I'm concerned, if we need to rub someone's nose in his shit, we ought to get rubbing.
posted by trharlan at 10:13 AM on July 5, 2003


How do I get a Stonecutter membership then?
posted by billsaysthis at 10:33 AM on July 5, 2003


Pay Matt $1 to post to the front page, and any users who think that the post is good could pay the poster something like $.01-$.05. Miguel could quit his day job I'm sure.

This would be a groovy thing to try out on a Clonefilter, but there's one big problem to overcome: The perception that a dollar buys you a chunk of the front page in which you can do whatever you like.
posted by rcade at 12:17 PM on July 5, 2003


there's one big problem to overcome: The perception that a dollar buys you a chunk of the front page in which you can do whatever you like.

A dollar does buy you a chunk of the front page. It's in the upper-right corner.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 12:35 PM on July 5, 2003


Hm, there's a basic principle that if people want something other than that which is offered, you should offer it. Perhaps Matt could fork off a newsfilter site. Since newsfilter.com is being squatted on, how about newsfilter.metafilter.com? If someone posted news to metafilter, matt could just move it rather than delete it.

Personally I could do without the obits in particular, I think they're entirely at odds with the purpose of the site. Unless they link to a really fabulous site related to the person in question which we otherwise would not have seen.

But this "me first" desperation to be the first to post a big story, even to the point of not even waiting for a link, makes no sense to me. Do you get some sort of points for it, redeemable for prizes? No. Then why do it?
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:13 PM on July 5, 2003


Gee, I posted an (essentially) linkless obit for Juan Garcia Esquivel last year, and got not one single snarky comment, let alone a whole pissy MetaTalk thread.

[sob]
posted by MrBaliHai at 1:26 PM on July 5, 2003


It's OK MrBaliHai. I don't get snarked at either. Don't know what I'm doing wrong.
posted by weston at 2:14 PM on July 5, 2003


there's one big problem to overcome: The perception that a dollar buys you a chunk of the front page in which you can do whatever you like.

The first time you lost your FPP for not playing by the rules and didn't get your dollar back, you'd be inclined to think about things.
posted by weston at 2:15 PM on July 5, 2003


i would totally back the idea of one dollar a post if it weren't for the fact that well....money is involved... if a person paid money for a post and it got deleted, altered, etc., they would be more inclined to raise hell, possible lawsuits, all that. money, even if it is only a dollar, produces all kinds of ugly possibilites.

i've already seen people make the argument that since they've 'paid' (let's ignore the fact that payment is purely voluntary and w/o any guarantees of 'satisfaction') to be a member that they somehow deserve 'better service'. i would guess that money + mefi = bad.
posted by poopy at 2:38 PM on July 5, 2003


And there's no secret cabal, awarding Stonecutter memberships to people who post to the front page first or most often.

Well, if it were secret, how could we know for sure?
posted by mr_roboto at 2:55 PM on July 5, 2003


ssshhhut up

</lenny>
posted by Space Coyote at 2:58 PM on July 5, 2003


They meet in a little pub called The Pancake and Pony. Rumor has it the joint serves a pretty decent dish of hassenpfeffer.....
posted by konolia at 3:12 PM on July 5, 2003


The Pancake and Pony. I like that.
posted by timeistight at 5:40 PM on July 5, 2003


An ObitFilter, separate from Mefi, would be a fantastic resource. alt.obituaries has been one of my favorite Usenet haunts for years.

* summons monkeys at keyboards *
posted by PrinceValium at 6:50 PM on July 5, 2003


Hm, there's a basic principle that if people want something other than that which is offered, you should offer it. Perhaps Matt could fork off a newsfilter site. Since newsfilter.com is being squatted on, how about newsfilter.metafilter.com? If someone posted news to metafilter, matt could just move it rather than delete it.

I think it was tossed around quite some time ago and shot down very quickly.

I also have pizza sauce on my keyboard.
posted by angry modem at 8:00 PM on July 6, 2003


No opinion on the obituary thread thing, but I will note that I myself did have to ask XQUZYPHYR to lighten up once already this week.
posted by scarabic at 10:13 PM on July 6, 2003


I'm just guessing this wouldn't be a good time to make my "Buddy Ebsen is Dead" post ...
posted by yhbc at 10:41 AM on July 7, 2003


XQUZYPHYR is sort of obnoxious, fascist, and taking of all this stuff way too seriously.
posted by xmutex at 11:42 AM on July 7, 2003


XQUZYPHYR is sort of obnoxious, fascist, and taking of all this stuff way too seriously.

Yes, I should be much more whimsical, perhaps by equating a comment about a bad FPP with dictatorial oppression. Curse you, xmutex, for having the strength to stand up to my goon squad and their plans for world domination.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 12:05 PM on July 7, 2003


So I've been wondering: how exactly does PettyGrudgeFilter begin?
posted by weston at 12:10 PM on July 7, 2003


XQUZYPHYR-- Nazi pig!
posted by xmutex at 12:21 PM on July 7, 2003


now let me get this straight. XQWERTYUIOP pens a comic, right? he's just being comical, right?
posted by quonsar at 12:22 PM on July 7, 2003


Buddy Ebsen is a Nazi pig? Sheee-it.
posted by stonerose at 12:24 PM on July 7, 2003


You all owe me royalties!! Seriously, though, XQ is, fundamentally, right about what he's saying here. You all just don't like the way he's saying it. Then again, having me as a character witness doesn't help anyone's cause all that much.
posted by jonson at 12:43 PM on July 7, 2003


XQUZYPHYR has a tendency to fly off the handle, and make mountains out of mole hills. This is just such an occasion.

Metaxa didn't kick your mother down a flight of stairs XQUZYPHER, so why all the unchecked aggression?
posted by SweetJesus at 1:29 PM on July 7, 2003


I don't think complaining about linkless posts is making mountains out of molehills. We've only got two rules here, and including a link is one of them.
posted by timeistight at 1:38 PM on July 7, 2003


Don't make me bring my ole gran into this again!

Now- off to class. All of you!! Yes, jonson, that includes you...
posted by dash_slot- at 1:39 PM on July 7, 2003


First week on clonazepam's always the hardest, huh dash?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:51 PM on July 7, 2003


I don't think complaining about linkless posts is making mountains out of molehills. We've only got two rules here, and including a link is one of them.

Is the self-righteous sarcasm thing part of the Metafilter rules? I don't object to XQ's position, but with the way he went about making his position known. It could have been dealt with in a much less bitchy manner.

The anonymity that the internet provides tends to allow people to act more curt with each other, and have less patience. I hope XQ wouldn't react in a similar way to a mistake, in real life.

If everyone would just be a little more polite when it comes to these mistakes, instead of piling on and jumping down the user's throat, I think this site would be a much better place.
posted by SweetJesus at 1:59 PM on July 7, 2003


If everyone would just be a little more polite when it comes to these mistakes, instead of piling on and jumping down the user's throat, I think this site would be a much better place.

Truer words were never said. While it's still necessary IMO to point out some of the rules of the site, if we could maintain a level of decorum while doing so, we could avoid a lot of the ugliness/flamewars/etc, which become the building blocks of ongoing grudges.
posted by jonson at 2:03 PM on July 7, 2003


jonson... you do make me laugh. And shake my head at the same time.
posted by widdershins at 2:14 PM on July 7, 2003


I'm not defending XQWhatever's tone; I'm just saying that the issue is little closer to a mountain than a molehill. metaxa wrote "No link as the news sites haven't got hard details yet," making a conscious decision to flout the rules.

Sweetjesus and johnson make important points about politeness and decorum, of course.
posted by timeistight at 2:16 PM on July 7, 2003


Damn you bastards!! It's JONSON, not Johnson!!!! No "h"!!!!

See? Politeness. Decorum.

Also Widdershins: what? I'm all about the decorum!
posted by jonson at 2:25 PM on July 7, 2003


Sorry jonston.
posted by timeistight at 2:27 PM on July 7, 2003


That's it tight! I believe you know what this means!!!
posted by jonson at 2:34 PM on July 7, 2003


jonson, if I were savvy enough I'd find a pic of some cute kid w/a gleeful and innocent 'who, me?' grin on his face and chocolate all over his hands and mouth, and I'd figure out how to insert it here. But instead you'll just have to imagine it.
posted by widdershins at 2:37 PM on July 7, 2003


johnstown.
posted by weston at 3:28 PM on July 7, 2003


jonestown?
posted by stonerose at 3:39 PM on July 7, 2003


Is the self-righteous sarcasm thing part of the Metafilter rules?
Yes.
posted by dg at 3:43 PM on July 7, 2003


First week on clonazepam's always the hardest, huh dash?

First week without your sense of humour's always the hardest too, PST! (",)

posted by dash_slot- at 3:52 PM on July 7, 2003


Klonies and decorum. Two things that always seem on short supply around here...
posted by konolia at 6:06 PM on July 7, 2003


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