what IS metafilter? September 8, 2005 6:39 PM Subscribe
"This website exists to break down the barriers between people, to extend a weblog beyond just one person, and to foster discussion among its members."
-or-
"MetaFilter is about posting links to interesting sites."
Which is correct?
Finding interesting sites is a solved problem. I was always under the impression that the former was the more important feature of MeFi.
-or-
"MetaFilter is about posting links to interesting sites."
Which is correct?
Finding interesting sites is a solved problem. I was always under the impression that the former was the more important feature of MeFi.
This website exists to break down the barriers between people by posting links to interesting sites, to extend a weblog beyond just one person, and to foster discussion among its members.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:41 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:41 PM on September 8, 2005
I've always been under the impression that the latter was the more important part. If you'll notice, all (I believe) of the sites you credit as solving the problem are post-MeFi sites. That is, MeFi is one of the sites that solved the problem, and (I think) the other sites you listed were created to solve a problem that was already solved. Also, breaking down barriers, extending blogs beyond one person, and fostering discussion is also a solved problem.
So, either way, whatever MeFi does is now a solved problem, but the problem it was made to solve was the latter, and it's what I hope it remains.
posted by Bugbread at 6:48 PM on September 8, 2005
So, either way, whatever MeFi does is now a solved problem, but the problem it was made to solve was the latter, and it's what I hope it remains.
posted by Bugbread at 6:48 PM on September 8, 2005
I think it's succeded at the first goal fairly well for a website. There are several people here who I was brawling with at first glance (mrgrimm, ludwig van, foldy, matteo, Faze, MidasMulligan and yes, Rothko/AlexReynolds come to mind) who through all the back and forth, I've come to appreciate once I made an effort to understand where they were coming from and what they were about. I dunno if the same is true for them, but I'm better for it anyway.
posted by jonmc at 6:49 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by jonmc at 6:49 PM on September 8, 2005
On preview: Of course, Rothko and mr_crash_davis are right. It's best that it's both. I just meant that if Vishnu came down, pointed a spear at you, and said "pick one or the other", I'd hope it was the latter.
posted by Bugbread at 6:49 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by Bugbread at 6:49 PM on September 8, 2005
Both hopefully, but if I had to chose between the two it would be the former.
If I only wanted interesting links, I'd check out del.icio.us, digg, or stumbleupon.
But then, I like typing.
posted by loquacious at 6:58 PM on September 8, 2005
If I only wanted interesting links, I'd check out del.icio.us, digg, or stumbleupon.
But then, I like typing.
posted by loquacious at 6:58 PM on September 8, 2005
I think that the way the posting form goes URL, Link Title, Description on a page headed 'Post a link to MetaFilter' and titled 'Post a link' is some sort of clue as to which is the more important, discussion or links.
posted by jack_mo at 7:02 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by jack_mo at 7:02 PM on September 8, 2005
Finding interesting sites is far from a solved problem. Fostering discussion is also a grand thing to do, but it won't happen here without links to discuss. It's the symbiosis between the two that makes MeFi what it is and helps it endure.
posted by jessamyn at 7:07 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by jessamyn at 7:07 PM on September 8, 2005
I wouldn't come here if I didn't find the threads hugely entertaining and informative. I peruse boingboing and others, but I read metafilter.
A lot of the links that have been posted lately, I've already seen elsewhere; these days, I mostly read the "front page" to find out what other people I respect or hate (or hate, but respect) are thinking about stuff I've seen already.
So, they aren't mutually exclusive, as Rothko says. This place is a community--a very large living room full of people discussing (and often arguing) about things that are going on in the world.
I like hearing what people think, and why they're thinking it. As far as I'm concerned, metafilter's just fine--I'm perfectly capable of skipping over posts that I don't think look interesting.
posted by interrobang at 7:07 PM on September 8, 2005
A lot of the links that have been posted lately, I've already seen elsewhere; these days, I mostly read the "front page" to find out what other people I respect or hate (or hate, but respect) are thinking about stuff I've seen already.
So, they aren't mutually exclusive, as Rothko says. This place is a community--a very large living room full of people discussing (and often arguing) about things that are going on in the world.
I like hearing what people think, and why they're thinking it. As far as I'm concerned, metafilter's just fine--I'm perfectly capable of skipping over posts that I don't think look interesting.
posted by interrobang at 7:07 PM on September 8, 2005
Why are they mutually exclusive options?
They're not, and this debate goes wayyy back. The thing is that some people want to post links that don't meet the tried'n'true MeFi standrads but which they THINK will "foster great discussion." These folks are eternally oppressed by the requirement that their links be interesting.
To use the poster's own language, finding a place to have a discussion online is a SOLVED PROBLEM. But I know... MeFi is so much better than most of the crappy forums out there. Well, of course. Maybe it is that way because it isn't a wide-open discussion forum, and focuses on interesting links and not age-old unsolvable human dillemas and hot-button politics, aka: the issues of our times.
Like I said, this one goes wayyy back. Matt will hold his course, as he should.
posted by scarabic at 7:25 PM on September 8, 2005
They're not, and this debate goes wayyy back. The thing is that some people want to post links that don't meet the tried'n'true MeFi standrads but which they THINK will "foster great discussion." These folks are eternally oppressed by the requirement that their links be interesting.
To use the poster's own language, finding a place to have a discussion online is a SOLVED PROBLEM. But I know... MeFi is so much better than most of the crappy forums out there. Well, of course. Maybe it is that way because it isn't a wide-open discussion forum, and focuses on interesting links and not age-old unsolvable human dillemas and hot-button politics, aka: the issues of our times.
Like I said, this one goes wayyy back. Matt will hold his course, as he should.
posted by scarabic at 7:25 PM on September 8, 2005
I dunno if the same is true for them, but I'm better for it anyway.
posted by jonmc at 6:49 PM PST on September 8 [!]
I wouldn't be reading City of Night, otherwise. Thanks, jonmc, for an excellent read.
posted by Rothko at 7:28 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by jonmc at 6:49 PM PST on September 8 [!]
I wouldn't be reading City of Night, otherwise. Thanks, jonmc, for an excellent read.
posted by Rothko at 7:28 PM on September 8, 2005
That was digaman, rothko. I recommended Ladies Man in the same thread, which despite the title, I still think you'd enjoy and find insightful. If you read it, lemme know what you think.
posted by jonmc at 7:30 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by jonmc at 7:30 PM on September 8, 2005
I did read Rechy's The Sexual Outlaw after buying it at a yardsale at 15. I thought it was a porn book. But I read it anyway because the prose was so riveting (similar to my man Price). It taught me a lot.
posted by jonmc at 7:34 PM on September 8, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 7:34 PM on September 8, 2005 [1 favorite]
Re: Interesting links, my personal standard is to try to be unique. The interweb thingy is alot like tabloid papers. If something has already been floating around in the Enquirer and the Sun (Fark and Fazed or whatever), then it's played out and doesn't belong in a reputable paper (Metafilter).
It's understandable that in times of crisis (like since Bush took office), that there will be more newsy items. The purpose is that poeple wonder how other mefites feel about these things. And that is important. Metafilter helps me understand the world, and we are well represented here. We have mefites from everywhere and every class. I love that.
posted by snsranch at 7:35 PM on September 8, 2005
It's understandable that in times of crisis (like since Bush took office), that there will be more newsy items. The purpose is that poeple wonder how other mefites feel about these things. And that is important. Metafilter helps me understand the world, and we are well represented here. We have mefites from everywhere and every class. I love that.
posted by snsranch at 7:35 PM on September 8, 2005
mullingitover, if you look a little further down in the guidelines you will see
"With the current number of members, even if fewer than 1% of the total membership post a link each day, it's far too many links to take in. Please take extra special care when selecting a link for the front page."
Metafilter is about posting interesting links, which will then foster discussion. There are plenty of other forums where you can talk about current events or whatever else is on your mind.
posted by Roger Dodger at 7:44 PM on September 8, 2005
"With the current number of members, even if fewer than 1% of the total membership post a link each day, it's far too many links to take in. Please take extra special care when selecting a link for the front page."
Metafilter is about posting interesting links, which will then foster discussion. There are plenty of other forums where you can talk about current events or whatever else is on your mind.
posted by Roger Dodger at 7:44 PM on September 8, 2005
I'm not so sure I agree with the whole "solved problem" thing. I mean, how long have search engines been around? Is it really that hard to find things online that might interest you? I’m sure if "lesbian scat-loving amputees" is your thing, you could find it somewhere... (And if you don't know what "scat" is in a sexual context, don't do a search. I'm serious. Speaking as someone who literally had that as his first introduction to the interweb, trust me, you're better off not knowing.)
Nah. This place used to be different. I'd probably have a three-digit user number if I'd signed up when I first came across the place, but back in the day there just seemed to be enough interesting stuff posted for the sake of the link, not the discussion, to get me through a dull work day. The Bad Candy website. Leisuretown. You could kill a whole day on those. Friends used to ask me where I got all those off the wall links from, and I would never tell them it was here because I wanted it to be my secret.
Ya see, I think that's what makes the people around here who seem to pine for the Good Ol' Days different from your current political frothers who on one side want things to go back to being the way they never really were, and on the other side want things to become something they never really can be. This place actually used to be what those of us here at the time wanted it to be. Now, not so much... But that doesn't necessarily mean it's not still interesting.
And I still curse the first god that comes to my mind when I see a jrun error. I still wait for jonmc to show up in any music related thread. I've learned that I'd gladly throttle those who agree with me just as much as those who don't. I miss people who used to be around a lot but aren't anymore *cough* *ufez* *fes* *chicobangs* *cough* *cough* even while I hate the vitriol that drove them away.
It's like your favorite dive bar that for some goddamn reason puts a Kelly Clarkson CD in the jukebox. You can get all indignant about how things ain't what they used to be, but if it really was your place to begin with you're still going to keep coming back to see where things go.
posted by Cyrano at 7:46 PM on September 8, 2005
Nah. This place used to be different. I'd probably have a three-digit user number if I'd signed up when I first came across the place, but back in the day there just seemed to be enough interesting stuff posted for the sake of the link, not the discussion, to get me through a dull work day. The Bad Candy website. Leisuretown. You could kill a whole day on those. Friends used to ask me where I got all those off the wall links from, and I would never tell them it was here because I wanted it to be my secret.
Ya see, I think that's what makes the people around here who seem to pine for the Good Ol' Days different from your current political frothers who on one side want things to go back to being the way they never really were, and on the other side want things to become something they never really can be. This place actually used to be what those of us here at the time wanted it to be. Now, not so much... But that doesn't necessarily mean it's not still interesting.
And I still curse the first god that comes to my mind when I see a jrun error. I still wait for jonmc to show up in any music related thread. I've learned that I'd gladly throttle those who agree with me just as much as those who don't. I miss people who used to be around a lot but aren't anymore *cough* *ufez* *fes* *chicobangs* *cough* *cough* even while I hate the vitriol that drove them away.
It's like your favorite dive bar that for some goddamn reason puts a Kelly Clarkson CD in the jukebox. You can get all indignant about how things ain't what they used to be, but if it really was your place to begin with you're still going to keep coming back to see where things go.
posted by Cyrano at 7:46 PM on September 8, 2005
Finding interesting sites is far from a solved problem.
posted by jessamyn at 7:07 PM PST on September 8 [!]
Yes, but how is MetaFilter better at finding interesting sites than any of the others? In my experience, more often than not the really good links are found at MeFi hours after they turn up at del.icio.us/popular et al. On the other hand the discussion resulting from a lame single-link FPP can be more interesting than a thoughtfully-written one, thus making the 116 comments link at the end of the post the interesting one.
posted by mullingitover at 8:01 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by jessamyn at 7:07 PM PST on September 8 [!]
Yes, but how is MetaFilter better at finding interesting sites than any of the others? In my experience, more often than not the really good links are found at MeFi hours after they turn up at del.icio.us/popular et al. On the other hand the discussion resulting from a lame single-link FPP can be more interesting than a thoughtfully-written one, thus making the 116 comments link at the end of the post the interesting one.
posted by mullingitover at 8:01 PM on September 8, 2005
In other words, it does both, but the core of every post is a worthwhile link. Without a link, it ceases to be a weblog and is merely a discussion forum/board. I don't want that.
When someone posts a lackluster, uninteresting link, it's often because they spent 10 seconds trying to fulfill the most minimum of requirement and they really just wanted to talk. Even if you find yourself in that position, at the very least do a little legwork to find 4-5 interesting tidbits about your pet topic. You can use a post like that to share why you are interested in the topic, what makes it great, and what's worth talking about.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:10 PM on September 8, 2005
When someone posts a lackluster, uninteresting link, it's often because they spent 10 seconds trying to fulfill the most minimum of requirement and they really just wanted to talk. Even if you find yourself in that position, at the very least do a little legwork to find 4-5 interesting tidbits about your pet topic. You can use a post like that to share why you are interested in the topic, what makes it great, and what's worth talking about.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:10 PM on September 8, 2005
Without a link, it ceases to be a weblog and is merely a discussion forum/board. I don't want that.
I understand where you're coming from (I think): we want posts that are articles with some thought/research/creativity put into them. I see that a majority of our FPPs are of this type, and it's clearly a strength. Ideally, the site should stand on its own, entertaining and interesting before you ever descend into the comments.
I'm fine with that premise. However, does that mean there should never be a one-liner single-link FPP, unless it's an interesting link, and if that were the rule, what would we define as an 'interesting link'? One Mefite will inevitably find an AP story enthralling and insist that it's a valuable FPP.
posted by mullingitover at 8:31 PM on September 8, 2005
I understand where you're coming from (I think): we want posts that are articles with some thought/research/creativity put into them. I see that a majority of our FPPs are of this type, and it's clearly a strength. Ideally, the site should stand on its own, entertaining and interesting before you ever descend into the comments.
I'm fine with that premise. However, does that mean there should never be a one-liner single-link FPP, unless it's an interesting link, and if that were the rule, what would we define as an 'interesting link'? One Mefite will inevitably find an AP story enthralling and insist that it's a valuable FPP.
posted by mullingitover at 8:31 PM on September 8, 2005
mullingitover, a single link one liner is fine, provided it's an amazing site. The less you have in a post, the more that link better make up for it.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:32 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:32 PM on September 8, 2005
Am I the only one who looks at 100+ comment threads as generally being a waste of time? I'm not anti-discussion by any means, but it's a rare thread indeed that winds up in the triple digits without degenerating into a standard-issue partisan bitchfest.
Then again, maybe I'm just jealous 'cause my posts get like two comments.
posted by arto at 8:32 PM on September 8, 2005
Then again, maybe I'm just jealous 'cause my posts get like two comments.
posted by arto at 8:32 PM on September 8, 2005
And, as you've figured out "interestingness" is hard to pin down, and we've been debating it endlessly since I started MetaTalk 5 years ago.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:32 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:32 PM on September 8, 2005
When someone posts a lackluster, uninteresting link, it's often because they spent 10 seconds trying to fulfill the most minimum of requirement and they really just wanted to talk. Even if you find yourself in that position, at the very least do a little legwork to find 4-5 interesting tidbits about your pet topic.
I agree with this, but it doesn't explain why disengenuously worded single-link posts to sites like the Washington Post and single-link posts to yahoo news stories are continually allowed to stay on the front page.
I haven't posted anything in awhile, but for a long time, I tried to make posts that were resources for everything you'd ever want to know about the topic I was posting about.
If you're unwilling to delete things that are perceived as dissenting from the "approved" politics around here, that's one thing. If you're afraid to do it because it'll encourage the persecution complexes of an incredibly vocal minority, that's another.
posted by interrobang at 8:42 PM on September 8, 2005
I agree with this, but it doesn't explain why disengenuously worded single-link posts to sites like the Washington Post and single-link posts to yahoo news stories are continually allowed to stay on the front page.
I haven't posted anything in awhile, but for a long time, I tried to make posts that were resources for everything you'd ever want to know about the topic I was posting about.
If you're unwilling to delete things that are perceived as dissenting from the "approved" politics around here, that's one thing. If you're afraid to do it because it'll encourage the persecution complexes of an incredibly vocal minority, that's another.
posted by interrobang at 8:42 PM on September 8, 2005
Then again, there are those 0-10 comment posts that have amazing links that send you off to some page for most of a day, leaving no time for chatting or looking for new links on MeFi.
I often wish for a clickthrough counter (at least) on the main, 'official' URL in a post just to satisfy my nerd curiosity.
posted by loquacious at 8:49 PM on September 8, 2005
I often wish for a clickthrough counter (at least) on the main, 'official' URL in a post just to satisfy my nerd curiosity.
posted by loquacious at 8:49 PM on September 8, 2005
Put a rock on ebay, people will buy it. Put a lackluster link on mefi, and people will discuss it. So for me, it's all about the link.
Though I gotta disagree with matt about the multiple links idea. It seems that in the last few years this whole 'single links are bad' theme has invaded mefi. Some multiple links posts are great, but most are just 4 crappy links put together. I'd rather just deal with one.
posted by justgary at 9:01 PM on September 8, 2005
Though I gotta disagree with matt about the multiple links idea. It seems that in the last few years this whole 'single links are bad' theme has invaded mefi. Some multiple links posts are great, but most are just 4 crappy links put together. I'd rather just deal with one.
posted by justgary at 9:01 PM on September 8, 2005
Agreed, loquacious.
And, since 100+ comment posts have lately become the rule rather than the exception around here, I am now even more likely to click on those less-commented posts instead.
posted by yhbc at 9:02 PM on September 8, 2005
And, since 100+ comment posts have lately become the rule rather than the exception around here, I am now even more likely to click on those less-commented posts instead.
posted by yhbc at 9:02 PM on September 8, 2005
Okay, continuously.
posted by interrobang at 9:13 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by interrobang at 9:13 PM on September 8, 2005
I often wish for a clickthrough counter (at least) on the main, 'official' URL in a post just to satisfy my nerd curiosity.
I was just thinking about asking about this. Has it ever been discussed? It seems like the perfect way to highlight popular posts, rather than argumentative ones. Especially if the counter could be limited to unique hits. A number of other forums I've been on have them, but I think they would make more sense on Metafilter, both as an example and as a guide.
posted by loquax at 9:20 PM on September 8, 2005
I was just thinking about asking about this. Has it ever been discussed? It seems like the perfect way to highlight popular posts, rather than argumentative ones. Especially if the counter could be limited to unique hits. A number of other forums I've been on have them, but I think they would make more sense on Metafilter, both as an example and as a guide.
posted by loquax at 9:20 PM on September 8, 2005
I often wish for a clickthrough counter (at least) on the main, 'official' URL in a post just to satisfy my nerd curiosity.
*wipes drool from mouth*
posted by If I Had An Anus at 9:36 PM on September 8, 2005
*wipes drool from mouth*
posted by If I Had An Anus at 9:36 PM on September 8, 2005
Can't a single link to a news site be the best of the web if the topic is interesting enough and it is timely enough? Granted the poster could usually do more research and make it a more full post, but isn't immediacy ever a factor in qualifying as "the best of the web"?
posted by aburd at 9:41 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by aburd at 9:41 PM on September 8, 2005
The interestingness that can be defined in words
Is not the Eternal Interestingness.
I like that the Law isn't.
Using a human being's (in this case, mathowie's) sense of curiosity, in preference to a fixed rulebook, seems like a good plan to me - even if he does sometimes delete a thread just as I'm about to post a painstakingly researched commentary on it. And even though the whole "user #1" thing reminds me of "Elder Brother No. 1" - aka Pol Pot. I'm not very good at sycophancy, so I'll just say that it's a fine, flexible system, and I regard my $5 as very well spent.
One thing I'd like to see more of in the discussions, though, is more people making a genuine attempt to arrive at a consensus .
Since we theoretically have infinite time in each thread, this should be less impossible than it might at first appear.
posted by cleardawn at 10:04 PM on September 8, 2005
Is not the Eternal Interestingness.
I like that the Law isn't.
Using a human being's (in this case, mathowie's) sense of curiosity, in preference to a fixed rulebook, seems like a good plan to me - even if he does sometimes delete a thread just as I'm about to post a painstakingly researched commentary on it. And even though the whole "user #1" thing reminds me of "Elder Brother No. 1" - aka Pol Pot. I'm not very good at sycophancy, so I'll just say that it's a fine, flexible system, and I regard my $5 as very well spent.
One thing I'd like to see more of in the discussions, though, is more people making a genuine attempt to arrive at a consensus .
Since we theoretically have infinite time in each thread, this should be less impossible than it might at first appear.
posted by cleardawn at 10:04 PM on September 8, 2005
No.
posted by mullingitover at 10:04 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by mullingitover at 10:04 PM on September 8, 2005
Since we theoretically have infinite time in each thread
Or 30 days, which ever arrives first.
posted by justgary at 10:07 PM on September 8, 2005
Or 30 days, which ever arrives first.
posted by justgary at 10:07 PM on September 8, 2005
When MetaFilter started out it was more about the links then the discussion, now it's more about the discussion than the links.
Blogging was new when MetaFilter started, the internet wasn't widely used by non-techies, and most of "the A-list bloggers" were early members. MetaFilter was probably the first find-cool-links site, and it was unique at the time.
Five-plus years later, everyone's got a weblog, there are tons of sites that find cool links (several of them more nimbly than MetaFilter), and the internet is much more widespread. And corporate, and homogenized. The ratio of quirky offbeat stuff to mainsteam is much smaller than it was in the early days, and it will get smaller and smaller. The discussion is what makes MetaFilter unique now.
Also, there was no Golden Age. Here's the first month, and five years ago today. The third post ever was an Apple product post. Most of the posts in the first month are single-link posts, and several are "PepsiBlue."
Finally, can we please retire "best of the web"? It's not in the About page, the guidelines, or the new user message.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:16 PM on September 8, 2005
Blogging was new when MetaFilter started, the internet wasn't widely used by non-techies, and most of "the A-list bloggers" were early members. MetaFilter was probably the first find-cool-links site, and it was unique at the time.
Five-plus years later, everyone's got a weblog, there are tons of sites that find cool links (several of them more nimbly than MetaFilter), and the internet is much more widespread. And corporate, and homogenized. The ratio of quirky offbeat stuff to mainsteam is much smaller than it was in the early days, and it will get smaller and smaller. The discussion is what makes MetaFilter unique now.
Also, there was no Golden Age. Here's the first month, and five years ago today. The third post ever was an Apple product post. Most of the posts in the first month are single-link posts, and several are "PepsiBlue."
Finally, can we please retire "best of the web"? It's not in the About page, the guidelines, or the new user message.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:16 PM on September 8, 2005
And the decline of MetaFilter continues.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:20 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:20 PM on September 8, 2005
Finally, can we please retire "best of the web"?
Having been the "best of the web" on metafilter once, you can pry this definition from my cold, dead hands.
posted by interrobang at 10:30 PM on September 8, 2005
Having been the "best of the web" on metafilter once, you can pry this definition from my cold, dead hands.
posted by interrobang at 10:30 PM on September 8, 2005
scarabic, interrobang is ‽ and I'm ?!
I'd love to see less of the "X event was reported today" posts. Maybe a news.metafilter.com I could dip into only on rare occasions? I doubt we'll see that ever happen though.
Best of the web still fits, but we have to work harder than single links. The key comment from mathowie was "The less you have in a post, the more that link better make up for it."
posted by ?! at 11:12 PM on September 8, 2005
I'd love to see less of the "X event was reported today" posts. Maybe a news.metafilter.com I could dip into only on rare occasions? I doubt we'll see that ever happen though.
Best of the web still fits, but we have to work harder than single links. The key comment from mathowie was "The less you have in a post, the more that link better make up for it."
posted by ?! at 11:12 PM on September 8, 2005
/me agrees with ?!, is also not the same guy.
posted by interrobang at 11:15 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by interrobang at 11:15 PM on September 8, 2005
Or 30 days, which ever arrives first.
posted by justgary at 10:07 PM PST on September 8 [!]
Damn, there's an event horizon?
My memory's way shorter than that anyway, so it looks like infinity to me. (isn't that a line from a song?)
posted by cleardawn at 11:16 PM on September 8, 2005
posted by justgary at 10:07 PM PST on September 8 [!]
Damn, there's an event horizon?
My memory's way shorter than that anyway, so it looks like infinity to me. (isn't that a line from a song?)
posted by cleardawn at 11:16 PM on September 8, 2005
Five-plus years later, everyone's got a weblog, there are tons of sites that find cool links (several of them more nimbly than MetaFilter), and the internet is much more widespread.
It's true that other sites do what metafilter does, and probably better, but the key word here is "filter". So while it may never say "best" of the web, filter leads one to believe that there's a separation happening. In this case, the good links from the crap links. If it's not best of the web, what is it? All of the web? But today metafilter is basically a catch all, and the filtering is left to the user.
Also, there was no Golden Age. Here's the first month, and five years ago today. The third post ever was an Apple product post. Most of the posts in the first month are single-link posts, and several are "PepsiBlue."
There were only a couple of political posts, members weren't using metafilter to push their views down everyone's throats time after time, people weren't calling each other douchebags and telling others to fuck off, and the word troll wasn't constantly thrown around. For me, that's pretty golden.
posted by justgary at 12:25 AM on September 9, 2005
It's true that other sites do what metafilter does, and probably better, but the key word here is "filter". So while it may never say "best" of the web, filter leads one to believe that there's a separation happening. In this case, the good links from the crap links. If it's not best of the web, what is it? All of the web? But today metafilter is basically a catch all, and the filtering is left to the user.
Also, there was no Golden Age. Here's the first month, and five years ago today. The third post ever was an Apple product post. Most of the posts in the first month are single-link posts, and several are "PepsiBlue."
There were only a couple of political posts, members weren't using metafilter to push their views down everyone's throats time after time, people weren't calling each other douchebags and telling others to fuck off, and the word troll wasn't constantly thrown around. For me, that's pretty golden.
posted by justgary at 12:25 AM on September 9, 2005
people weren't calling each other douchebags and telling others to fuck off, and the word troll wasn't constantly thrown around. For me, that's pretty golden.
Word.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:16 AM on September 9, 2005
Word.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:16 AM on September 9, 2005
Well, (*scratches chin*) I might have been, but I was the exception rather than the rule.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:18 AM on September 9, 2005
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:18 AM on September 9, 2005
Am I the only one who looks at 100+ comment threads as generally being a waste of time?
No. You're right, they tend to be train wrecks. Well, if train wrecks were both painful and unspeakably dull.
posted by Tuwa at 1:25 AM on September 9, 2005
No. You're right, they tend to be train wrecks. Well, if train wrecks were both painful and unspeakably dull.
posted by Tuwa at 1:25 AM on September 9, 2005
Finding interesting sites is far from a solved problem. Fostering discussion is also a grand thing to do, but it won't happen here without links to discuss. It's the symbiosis between the two that makes MeFi what it is and helps it endure.
posted by jessamyn at 7:07 PM PST on September 8 [!]
Amen
posted by caddis at 6:41 AM on September 9, 2005
posted by jessamyn at 7:07 PM PST on September 8 [!]
Amen
posted by caddis at 6:41 AM on September 9, 2005
The purpose of Metafilter is to provide a place where people can debate the purpose of Metafilter.
*stealing from an old quonsar snark, but not doing it well*
posted by LarryC at 7:39 AM on September 9, 2005
*stealing from an old quonsar snark, but not doing it well*
posted by LarryC at 7:39 AM on September 9, 2005
There may not have been a golden age, but back in the day, people had more respect for each other's opinions, and didn't simply dismiss others because of who they were.
dios would not have been treated so badly back in the day. And I think we have ample evidence to believe that when we refer to people like aaron, evanizer, and a couple of others.
People weren't as polarized; they may have held strong opinions, as they do now, but they weren't as loud and obnoxious about it. I remember rcade, rodii, raaka, tamim, rebeccablood, NortonDC, and many others who engaged in political threads with a clear head and without resorting to personal attacks.
Sadly, that isn't the case anymore. Whoever is loudest, most obnoxious, and arrogant seems to "win the threads". Whatever that means.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 8:28 AM on September 9, 2005
dios would not have been treated so badly back in the day. And I think we have ample evidence to believe that when we refer to people like aaron, evanizer, and a couple of others.
People weren't as polarized; they may have held strong opinions, as they do now, but they weren't as loud and obnoxious about it. I remember rcade, rodii, raaka, tamim, rebeccablood, NortonDC, and many others who engaged in political threads with a clear head and without resorting to personal attacks.
Sadly, that isn't the case anymore. Whoever is loudest, most obnoxious, and arrogant seems to "win the threads". Whatever that means.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 8:28 AM on September 9, 2005
Jeez, ?!, are you on your . or what? , over here and I'll ram a ^ up your *.
;)
posted by scarabic at 8:42 AM on September 9, 2005
;)
posted by scarabic at 8:42 AM on September 9, 2005
Thank god no one has responded yet. Please, please ignore what I just posted. It's irrelevant, impossible to prove, and just doesn't belong here. I apologize for bringing it up. I just realized, a few minutes after I posted this, that most of the people who were around the time that I mentioned are no longer active members and my comments tend to insult the current community.
Though I still believe what I wrote, I can't imagine that any of the current politically motivated posters would possibly acknowledge my writing because it would undermine their presence here and now. Again, sorry, and just ignore me.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 9:01 AM on September 9, 2005
Though I still believe what I wrote, I can't imagine that any of the current politically motivated posters would possibly acknowledge my writing because it would undermine their presence here and now. Again, sorry, and just ignore me.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 9:01 AM on September 9, 2005
SeizeTheDay, your apology is quite unnecessary, I agree with every word you say. Indeed, I for one am ready to act on your proposal; all we need is a little more specificity before we, as a group, can act on your recommendations. Please, therefore, provide a full list of these arrogant, "loud and obnoxious" users who "resort to personal attacks" and lack a "clear head", so that we can expose them before their peers.
My favorite phrase at the moment is "accidentally self-referential."
Seriously, my own view is that genuine politeness in any group tends to increase over time - it's self-reinforcing, like civilization itself - but it's a gradual trend (much like global warming) whose overall flow is often well concealed by quasi-random local minima and maxima. Sometimes there's a backlash too - "this is politeness (=political correctness) gone mad!"
The golden glow of false nostalgia also tends to hinder our accuracy in assessing just how much better we're doing than the hitler fags of the past.
posted by cleardawn at 9:55 AM on September 9, 2005
My favorite phrase at the moment is "accidentally self-referential."
Seriously, my own view is that genuine politeness in any group tends to increase over time - it's self-reinforcing, like civilization itself - but it's a gradual trend (much like global warming) whose overall flow is often well concealed by quasi-random local minima and maxima. Sometimes there's a backlash too - "this is politeness (=political correctness) gone mad!"
The golden glow of false nostalgia also tends to hinder our accuracy in assessing just how much better we're doing than the hitler fags of the past.
posted by cleardawn at 9:55 AM on September 9, 2005
The golden glow of false nostalgia also tends to hinder our accuracy in assessing just how much better we're doing than the hitler fags of the past.
There's nothing false about it cleardawn. What seizetheday said is correct, and you only have to read the archives to believe it. If that constitutes a golden age, well, that's up to you. Maybe it's just a natural result of a much bigger membership, but this isn't some imagined concept.
posted by justgary at 10:17 AM on September 9, 2005
There's nothing false about it cleardawn. What seizetheday said is correct, and you only have to read the archives to believe it. If that constitutes a golden age, well, that's up to you. Maybe it's just a natural result of a much bigger membership, but this isn't some imagined concept.
posted by justgary at 10:17 AM on September 9, 2005
SeizeTheDay, go with your gut feeling. I've watched Metafilter since early 2001 and I believe you're right. Of course as members change the chemistry of the site changes. I don't see the general politiness increasing. Among members who have a history, maybe, but the general population is quicker to call each other on slights and irritations.
Why? It's all about the divisions. Politics of course, and simple opinion differences. The petty arguments that carry from thread to thread have expanded. With two and three times as many people you have a greater change of just rubbing someone the wrong way. We've lost some of the social oil that facilitates civil discussions. I don't believe because long-time members have changed that much. We just have many more voices now.
For example, I don't believe we're any more or less likely to call someone a "fuckwit" today than years ago. In a kind, patronizing smiling sort of way of course. For example, I was just as likely to call scarabic a pale ass, chicken-legged, fur covered fool who aspires to heights unattainable by one of his obviously "^" wee length and girth then as I am today. When I was new I didn't post it. For the children's sake you know. Today I'd do it with a smile in the secure knowledge he has shown himself as one who understand one gets what one gives.
The problems come when new members see such comments. Without a sense of history or an understanding of the personalities they simply believe it is fine to cat-call any and all. They lack the understanding of the social norms of Metafilter and the less-restrictive atmosphere of the grey.
The answers would be draconian. New members forced to wait months until commenting privileges are granted. The creation of Mr. Matt's School of Etiquette or roving bands of censors armed with Unicode stocks. Personally, I look forward to the politness increase as cleardawn envisions. I hope he is correct and politeness in a closed society doesn't resemble entropy.
posted by ?! at 10:46 AM on September 9, 2005
Why? It's all about the divisions. Politics of course, and simple opinion differences. The petty arguments that carry from thread to thread have expanded. With two and three times as many people you have a greater change of just rubbing someone the wrong way. We've lost some of the social oil that facilitates civil discussions. I don't believe because long-time members have changed that much. We just have many more voices now.
For example, I don't believe we're any more or less likely to call someone a "fuckwit" today than years ago. In a kind, patronizing smiling sort of way of course. For example, I was just as likely to call scarabic a pale ass, chicken-legged, fur covered fool who aspires to heights unattainable by one of his obviously "^" wee length and girth then as I am today. When I was new I didn't post it. For the children's sake you know. Today I'd do it with a smile in the secure knowledge he has shown himself as one who understand one gets what one gives.
The problems come when new members see such comments. Without a sense of history or an understanding of the personalities they simply believe it is fine to cat-call any and all. They lack the understanding of the social norms of Metafilter and the less-restrictive atmosphere of the grey.
The answers would be draconian. New members forced to wait months until commenting privileges are granted. The creation of Mr. Matt's School of Etiquette or roving bands of censors armed with Unicode stocks. Personally, I look forward to the politness increase as cleardawn envisions. I hope he is correct and politeness in a closed society doesn't resemble entropy.
posted by ?! at 10:46 AM on September 9, 2005
To clarify, my last post should've been: "No."
In the years since its creation, Metafilter has gone from being a small village to a large city. People in villages are more likely to be polite, but when you venture out into the big city, you're more likely to get mugged if you go into the wrong dark alley (or thread full of partisan bickering). And there's more posting happening, both good and bad.
I'd really enjoy seeing a change in the terminology we use. When we call a post a 'link', it's easy to get the impression that single link posts are always welcome. I don't think it would be as easy to make posts that are light on content if we called them 'articles' instead of 'links'.
posted by mullingitover at 10:59 AM on September 9, 2005
In the years since its creation, Metafilter has gone from being a small village to a large city. People in villages are more likely to be polite, but when you venture out into the big city, you're more likely to get mugged if you go into the wrong dark alley (or thread full of partisan bickering). And there's more posting happening, both good and bad.
I'd really enjoy seeing a change in the terminology we use. When we call a post a 'link', it's easy to get the impression that single link posts are always welcome. I don't think it would be as easy to make posts that are light on content if we called them 'articles' instead of 'links'.
posted by mullingitover at 10:59 AM on September 9, 2005
I thought the purpose of metafilter was to flip out and kill people.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 3:08 PM on September 9, 2005
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 3:08 PM on September 9, 2005
*flips out, kills PinkStainless tail with a gun*
what a senseless waste of human life.
posted by jonmc at 3:22 PM on September 9, 2005
what a senseless waste of human life.
posted by jonmc at 3:22 PM on September 9, 2005
So unlike sensible wastes of human life.
posted by sonofsamiam at 4:17 PM on September 9, 2005
posted by sonofsamiam at 4:17 PM on September 9, 2005
the prince of tides is neither about princes or tides....discuss
posted by PocusHocus at 5:52 PM on September 9, 2005
posted by PocusHocus at 5:52 PM on September 9, 2005
In the years since its creation, Metafilter has gone from being a small village to a large city. People in villages are more likely to be polite, but when you venture out into the big city, you're more likely to get mugged if you go into the wrong dark alley (or thread full of partisan bickering).
THAT is a great way of putting it. Thank you.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:08 PM on September 9, 2005
THAT is a great way of putting it. Thank you.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:08 PM on September 9, 2005
Then:
- Best of Web (however, the web was much less rich)
-News every other post or so
-Tiny community, big audience
-Interesting links distinguished site
-Politics minimal
Now:
-Best of Web (the site, not the links)
-News every other post or so
-Big community
-Interesting links compete with interesting discussion for prominence in the site
-Politics is big, but one of the only sites that does politics with any balance and intelligence, despite the leftward pitch.
The site is as strong, if not stronger, than it has ever been. We have lost a few of the stronger personalities, but the quality is better than ever, make that EVER!
As Jess so eloquently stated earlier, the power of the site is the discussion of the links. Some sites do links, others do discussion, but most fail to combine the two well. MeFi does it. The people here, despite the occasional dust-ups, usually respect each other, and there are big differences of opinion. That is amazing and not common on the internets. If only for that this site distinguishes itself. Add to that the generally high level of discourse. Sites on the left and right, especially the right, sink to the lowest level of school yard name calling. In contrast MeFi political discussions are more like watching the NewsHour on PBS, with slightly more poo.
It is good just the way it is. No change, except for the occasional pony here and there please.
[I don't think I will be ribbing EB about prolixity anytime soon after this mess, sorry.]
posted by caddis at 6:34 PM on September 9, 2005
- Best of Web (however, the web was much less rich)
-News every other post or so
-Tiny community, big audience
-Interesting links distinguished site
-Politics minimal
Now:
-Best of Web (the site, not the links)
-News every other post or so
-Big community
-Interesting links compete with interesting discussion for prominence in the site
-Politics is big, but one of the only sites that does politics with any balance and intelligence, despite the leftward pitch.
The site is as strong, if not stronger, than it has ever been. We have lost a few of the stronger personalities, but the quality is better than ever, make that EVER!
As Jess so eloquently stated earlier, the power of the site is the discussion of the links. Some sites do links, others do discussion, but most fail to combine the two well. MeFi does it. The people here, despite the occasional dust-ups, usually respect each other, and there are big differences of opinion. That is amazing and not common on the internets. If only for that this site distinguishes itself. Add to that the generally high level of discourse. Sites on the left and right, especially the right, sink to the lowest level of school yard name calling. In contrast MeFi political discussions are more like watching the NewsHour on PBS, with slightly more poo.
It is good just the way it is. No change, except for the occasional pony here and there please.
[I don't think I will be ribbing EB about prolixity anytime soon after this mess, sorry.]
posted by caddis at 6:34 PM on September 9, 2005
People in villages are more likely to be polite, but when you venture out into the big city, you're more likely to get mugged
Not so. Per interaction, villages are usually far more dangerous than cities, especially for outsiders. Would you rather spend the night in Peking, or in a remote pig farming village 200 miles away? The city offers hotels, cosmopolitan tolerance, libraries, teachers, nurses, researchers, people who speak your language... the village offers (at best) a bar where everyone falls silent when a stranger walks in. Which would you prefer MeFi to aspire to?
But I don't think it's a solid analogy anyway. We don't live here, we can't mug each other. It's an archive of conversations we're building, not a town. The more quality contributors, the better.
posted by cleardawn at 6:19 PM on September 10, 2005
Not so. Per interaction, villages are usually far more dangerous than cities, especially for outsiders. Would you rather spend the night in Peking, or in a remote pig farming village 200 miles away? The city offers hotels, cosmopolitan tolerance, libraries, teachers, nurses, researchers, people who speak your language... the village offers (at best) a bar where everyone falls silent when a stranger walks in. Which would you prefer MeFi to aspire to?
But I don't think it's a solid analogy anyway. We don't live here, we can't mug each other. It's an archive of conversations we're building, not a town. The more quality contributors, the better.
posted by cleardawn at 6:19 PM on September 10, 2005
The more quality contributors, the better.
Sure, but you're assuming quality. All you can be guaranteed is quantity. With more quantity, more noise, and difficulty finding the quality.
But I don't think it's a solid analogy anyway. We don't live here, we can't mug each other.
I think a classroom would be a better analogy (though I disagree about cities being less dangerous than villages. I've travelled often and cities are far more dangerous. But in cities people normally stay in the touristy areas and out of dangerous ones).
posted by justgary at 10:48 PM on September 10, 2005
Sure, but you're assuming quality. All you can be guaranteed is quantity. With more quantity, more noise, and difficulty finding the quality.
But I don't think it's a solid analogy anyway. We don't live here, we can't mug each other.
I think a classroom would be a better analogy (though I disagree about cities being less dangerous than villages. I've travelled often and cities are far more dangerous. But in cities people normally stay in the touristy areas and out of dangerous ones).
posted by justgary at 10:48 PM on September 10, 2005
I agree, justgary, a school classroom is a much better metaphor, forever on "Bring your cool thing to show everyone else" day.
The more cool things, the better!
I wonder if we could have an "X people found this article/comment helpful" field (and of course two buttons, Helpful and Meh, that add or subtract 1 to X). Has that already been tried and abandoned? Too much clutter? Folks should be encouraged to judge for themselves rather than behaving like sheep? Technical problems? Or did I accidentally have a good idea (seems unlikely)?
posted by cleardawn at 7:56 PM on September 11, 2005
The more cool things, the better!
I wonder if we could have an "X people found this article/comment helpful" field (and of course two buttons, Helpful and Meh, that add or subtract 1 to X). Has that already been tried and abandoned? Too much clutter? Folks should be encouraged to judge for themselves rather than behaving like sheep? Technical problems? Or did I accidentally have a good idea (seems unlikely)?
posted by cleardawn at 7:56 PM on September 11, 2005
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posted by Rothko at 6:41 PM on September 8, 2005