heated, and off topic June 6, 2006 6:02 AM Subscribe
This AskMe thread is getting a bit... ermmm... heated, and off topic.
"Nuke the disrespectful thieving fuckers" seems like it really isn't answering the question. Among other answers that are turning the thread into a heated discussion about latino and immigration issues, which isn't particularly pertinent to the question.
posted by antifuse at 6:06 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by antifuse at 6:06 AM on June 6, 2006
I think that nuking the disrespectful thieving fuckers would definitely solve the problem. No neighbours, no house, no problem.
posted by adamvasco at 6:21 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by adamvasco at 6:21 AM on June 6, 2006
God that thread pissed me off. Politely asking why the mention of Latinos is perfectly valid (and the poster answered the question politely and honestly). But to use that detail to derail the thread into issues of immigration is just wrong.
And I'm really tiring of the over-policing that's happening in AskMeFi. It's as if people know that AskMeFi is great and want to keep it that way (which is cool) but then everyone, EVERYONE, seems to take it upon themselves to act as moderators. And when the site is growing, more and more people derail threads with "That's not what AskMeFi is for" crap. Just take it to MeTa if you have such a problem with someone's comment.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:25 AM on June 6, 2006
And I'm really tiring of the over-policing that's happening in AskMeFi. It's as if people know that AskMeFi is great and want to keep it that way (which is cool) but then everyone, EVERYONE, seems to take it upon themselves to act as moderators. And when the site is growing, more and more people derail threads with "That's not what AskMeFi is for" crap. Just take it to MeTa if you have such a problem with someone's comment.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:25 AM on June 6, 2006
Agreed. Didn't think it needed a MeTa thread, but flagged and emailed a heads-up to Matt and Jessamyn. While loquacious' "nukem" comment is heated, it is still on topic. Atreides "that nativist urge within me to want to see the most direct punishment against illegal immigrants enacted and carried out," on the other hand, is a complete derail, and ikkyu2's "Traditional American values like flogging niggers" response did nothing but add gasoline to the fire. Come on, guys, keep that stuff to the blue. It's not helping answer the question.
posted by mediareport at 6:27 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by mediareport at 6:27 AM on June 6, 2006
What do they need power for, anyway? Tortilla warmer? Margarita blender? Charge the batteries for the hydraulics on their '63 Impala?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:32 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:32 AM on June 6, 2006
Politely asking why the mention of Latinos is perfectly valid
Really? It's not obvious that the language/culture barrier is an important part of the problems radioamy has been having? Sorry, but it seemed more than a bit ridiculous to question that out of some kneejerk PC instinct.
posted by mediareport at 6:32 AM on June 6, 2006
Really? It's not obvious that the language/culture barrier is an important part of the problems radioamy has been having? Sorry, but it seemed more than a bit ridiculous to question that out of some kneejerk PC instinct.
posted by mediareport at 6:32 AM on June 6, 2006
Ethnicity aside (totally, totally aside), and on the "nuke the fuckers" issue (although that person doesn't seem to mean 'nuke' literally (because that would damage the asker's apartment as well)) whenever I see questions that are essentially "Someone terrible is doing something really awful to me, what should I do?", I have this quiet voice inside me that urges me to answer (jokingly) as follows:
1. Buy a gun.
2. Kill them all.
See, they don't ask, "What should I do about this that won't involve killing?" or "What should I do about this that won't result in my incarceration?" or "What is a non-morally reprehensible what to solve this problem?". They just ask what they should do that will solve the problem at hand. Killing your neighbors would indeed make them stop stealing your power. Of course after you finished spraying the bottom apartment of the duplex with gunfire, you would have to unplug the cord that they were using to steal your power, but other than that, follow steps one and two, and your problem is solved.
As I am having this thought, I know that the answer would not be valid because an assumption of all the questions that are asked is "What is the best way to solve this problem" and for almost no one would the best way to solve a problem end with them covered in gore and the sound of sirens growing louder. However, the next time you ask a question about what you should do about mean people doing something bad to you, know that someone somewhere is silently thinking, somewhere in the lizard portions of their brain, that he would like to answer that you should take steps one and two above.
P.S. Violence is wrong and is not a good way to solve problems. Killing is wrong. Guns are bad. Don't do drugs. Stay in school. Call your mom and tell her you love her.
P.P.S. Maybe I just shouldn't read AskMe early in the mornings.
posted by ND¢ at 6:38 AM on June 6, 2006
1. Buy a gun.
2. Kill them all.
See, they don't ask, "What should I do about this that won't involve killing?" or "What should I do about this that won't result in my incarceration?" or "What is a non-morally reprehensible what to solve this problem?". They just ask what they should do that will solve the problem at hand. Killing your neighbors would indeed make them stop stealing your power. Of course after you finished spraying the bottom apartment of the duplex with gunfire, you would have to unplug the cord that they were using to steal your power, but other than that, follow steps one and two, and your problem is solved.
As I am having this thought, I know that the answer would not be valid because an assumption of all the questions that are asked is "What is the best way to solve this problem" and for almost no one would the best way to solve a problem end with them covered in gore and the sound of sirens growing louder. However, the next time you ask a question about what you should do about mean people doing something bad to you, know that someone somewhere is silently thinking, somewhere in the lizard portions of their brain, that he would like to answer that you should take steps one and two above.
P.S. Violence is wrong and is not a good way to solve problems. Killing is wrong. Guns are bad. Don't do drugs. Stay in school. Call your mom and tell her you love her.
P.P.S. Maybe I just shouldn't read AskMe early in the mornings.
posted by ND¢ at 6:38 AM on June 6, 2006
It's not obvious that the language/culture barrier is an important part of the problems radioamy has been having?
Do you remember the thread a few weeks ago with the guy in China who can't get women to sleep with him? Early into the thread, people (once they understood that he was dating Chinese women as an American man) started to claim that these women were trying to save face and didn't want to insult their family or culture by sleeping with him.
But this was clearly stated by the OP. This was deduced by the readers. I think that the OP has an obligation to explicitly tell her audience why she mentioned Latinos to defuse any sort of negative racial connotations. This is an anonymous public forum and it can be expected that your motives and biases will be called into question. If you don't want to be questioned, leave the Latino part out (I fail to see how they're being Latino has anything to do with the theft of electricity; that's not a "cultural thing"; it's a human stealing from other human thing).
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:40 AM on June 6, 2006
Do you remember the thread a few weeks ago with the guy in China who can't get women to sleep with him? Early into the thread, people (once they understood that he was dating Chinese women as an American man) started to claim that these women were trying to save face and didn't want to insult their family or culture by sleeping with him.
But this was clearly stated by the OP. This was deduced by the readers. I think that the OP has an obligation to explicitly tell her audience why she mentioned Latinos to defuse any sort of negative racial connotations. This is an anonymous public forum and it can be expected that your motives and biases will be called into question. If you don't want to be questioned, leave the Latino part out (I fail to see how they're being Latino has anything to do with the theft of electricity; that's not a "cultural thing"; it's a human stealing from other human thing).
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:40 AM on June 6, 2006
Sorry, First line in second paragraph is "But this was NOT clearly stated by the OP."
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:41 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:41 AM on June 6, 2006
Politely asking why the mention of Latinos is perfectly valid (and the poster answered the question politely and honestly).
It's a polite way of saying "I think you're a racist. Please prove you're not."
posted by smackfu at 6:41 AM on June 6, 2006
It's a polite way of saying "I think you're a racist. Please prove you're not."
posted by smackfu at 6:41 AM on June 6, 2006
'It's a polite way of saying' is a polite way of saying, "I'm putting words in your mouth."
posted by carsonb at 6:46 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by carsonb at 6:46 AM on June 6, 2006
Look at the last two sentences of my second paragraph smackfu. This really isn't complicated.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:50 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:50 AM on June 6, 2006
No, it's not complicated. Questioning someone's motive for identifying the race of the people is a pure derail, and I don't see how it is appropriate to post to AskMe.
posted by smackfu at 6:54 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by smackfu at 6:54 AM on June 6, 2006
Well, it can also be a polite way of asking the poster to think about (and therefore justify) their original assumptions. Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't, but since race is a loaded category in the US, and immigration doubly so right now, asking the poster to consider whether the ethnicity of the neighbors is important seems perfectly acceptable.
I see many more people knee-jerking their way to claiming that they've been called racists than I do people knee-jerking and actually calling people racists.
posted by OmieWise at 6:54 AM on June 6, 2006
I see many more people knee-jerking their way to claiming that they've been called racists than I do people knee-jerking and actually calling people racists.
posted by OmieWise at 6:54 AM on June 6, 2006
I'm actually find it pretty interesting to read. Flagged as a favorite.
posted by dobie at 6:55 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by dobie at 6:55 AM on June 6, 2006
On preview: asking the poster to examine their assumptions about a problem in order to see if they might be getting in the way of solving the problem is appropriate.
posted by OmieWise at 6:56 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by OmieWise at 6:56 AM on June 6, 2006
You really dispute my point? Why else mention it?
I think AmbroseChapel asked a good question (Is there any particular reason to tell us they're Latino?) and followed it up with what he thought was the answer (she's racist). Turns out the answer to his question (becuase culture clash is a factor) was helpful in discerning the situation and offering relevant advice.
I guess I just took issue with your pithy way of stating the above, which is why I adopted the copycat format. Stay with us, 'Snark Is Offensive' at 11.
posted by carsonb at 7:01 AM on June 6, 2006
I think AmbroseChapel asked a good question (Is there any particular reason to tell us they're Latino?) and followed it up with what he thought was the answer (she's racist). Turns out the answer to his question (becuase culture clash is a factor) was helpful in discerning the situation and offering relevant advice.
I guess I just took issue with your pithy way of stating the above, which is why I adopted the copycat format. Stay with us, 'Snark Is Offensive' at 11.
posted by carsonb at 7:01 AM on June 6, 2006
I think that nuking the disrespectful thieving fuckers would definitely solve the problem. No neighbours, no house, no problem.
And all that radiation floating around would provide plenty of power. Sounds like a win-win.
posted by jonmc at 7:10 AM on June 6, 2006
And all that radiation floating around would provide plenty of power. Sounds like a win-win.
posted by jonmc at 7:10 AM on June 6, 2006
identifying them as latinos was very important--it's probably one of the root causes. the op was respectful in her description. it makes for better answers. ambrose should read a bit more before assuming that the op was racist. and the answer that starts off with 'nuke the disrespectful...' is by far the best response.
posted by lester at 7:16 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by lester at 7:16 AM on June 6, 2006
This very same girl posted a "rant" to the New Orleans Craigslist about the same "stealing power" thing : the racists epitaphs used to describe her neighors were appalling.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 7:33 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 7:33 AM on June 6, 2006
Bucket, this is the sort of situation where documentation would be a good thing.
posted by cortex at 7:36 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by cortex at 7:36 AM on June 6, 2006
Used by her, or by others commenting on the post? Big difference.
posted by brain_drain at 7:41 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by brain_drain at 7:41 AM on June 6, 2006
Questioning someone's motive for identifying the raceIdentifying someone as Latino is, by definition, identifying their ethnicity, not their race. If you haven't noticed, Latino's come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. Furthermore, race, as a social construct, is different in other countries and regions of the world.
On the other hand, ontemporary America seems to be redefining race to include looking like you're from Mexico as the new black. Perhaps your comment was more prescient than I originally thought.
This very same girl posted a "rant" to the New Orleans Craigslist about the same "stealing power" thing : the racists epitaphs used to describe her neighors were appalling.This is the kind of thing that would need more than a link to preclude that the posters were the same.
posted by sequential at 7:43 AM on June 6, 2006
I removed an off-topic derail about whether immigration should be allowed or not.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:22 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:22 AM on June 6, 2006
Not after they've been nuked.
posted by languagehat at 9:13 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by languagehat at 9:13 AM on June 6, 2006
Yay, jonmc returns!
posted by stinkycheese at 9:18 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by stinkycheese at 9:18 AM on June 6, 2006
AmbroseChapel's original question seemed germane to trying to help the OP deal with her problem which seemed to be part money and part frustration and just neighbor-issues in general. Once the OP replied, I think it helped people to understand her situation - both in her own head and in day to day neighbor interactions. The OP may or may not harbor racially-based sentiments, but explaining that they are Latino as a shortcut to saying "They speak Spanish, there may be a cultural thing I'm not getting" and whatnot seems non-problematic.
AC's follow up about being made uncomfortable was less germane and probably belonged here not there. I missed the thread when it had whatever the super-offending comments were.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:20 AM on June 6, 2006
AC's follow up about being made uncomfortable was less germane and probably belonged here not there. I missed the thread when it had whatever the super-offending comments were.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:20 AM on June 6, 2006
This is the kind of thing that would need more than a link to preclude that the posters were the same.
conclude
posted by atrazine at 10:19 AM on June 6, 2006
conclude
posted by atrazine at 10:19 AM on June 6, 2006
It may be getting heated, but at least they're not getting hot and bothered.
Oh, and just in case there are any germans in the thread, don't mention the war.
posted by blue_beetle at 10:21 AM on June 6, 2006
Oh, and just in case there are any germans in the thread, don't mention the war.
posted by blue_beetle at 10:21 AM on June 6, 2006
Wow I can't believe how much this has gotten people talking! However, I DID NOT POST ANYTHING ON NOLA CRAIGSLIST! I am really not sure why Mr Bucket would automaticly assume that it was me (I think he's referring to this) but I most certainly a) don't align myself with those opinions b) post on rants and raves c) use that kind of language or d) write that poorly.
That said, I appreciate everyone's thoughtful insight and comments. And Matt, thank you for removing a derail, I most definitely did not mean for responses to go in that direction!
posted by radioamy at 10:27 AM on June 6, 2006
That said, I appreciate everyone's thoughtful insight and comments. And Matt, thank you for removing a derail, I most definitely did not mean for responses to go in that direction!
posted by radioamy at 10:27 AM on June 6, 2006
*waits for Mean Mr. Bucket to apologize*
posted by languagehat at 10:29 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by languagehat at 10:29 AM on June 6, 2006
"Since we have returned home some other low classed workers fucked up the wiring and now we have to run a 100' heavy extension cord out of the back door and down the steps to utilize the washer or dryer."
That's a quote from the CL rant. It's obvious that we're dealing with two different people and situations here.
posted by lemoncello at 10:37 AM on June 6, 2006
That's a quote from the CL rant. It's obvious that we're dealing with two different people and situations here.
posted by lemoncello at 10:37 AM on June 6, 2006
Yay ! MIGS is back ! Hi Migs !
posted by sgt.serenity at 10:44 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by sgt.serenity at 10:44 AM on June 6, 2006
concludeWhere are you when I am writing papers!
But, yeah, you're right.
posted by sequential at 10:51 AM on June 6, 2006
Worse yet for Mean Mr. Bucket, I don't see any 'racists epitaphs' used to describe the poster's neighbors. I see: 'ignorant ass drug addict scum workers,' 'low classed workers,' 'your too busy sucking on your crack-pipe in your Airline hotel room,' 'your arrogance,' 'butt-munch', 'idiot.'
Forgive the quotes, but MMB needs to answer for his not-sexy behavior. You should be able to call someone an idiot without being labeled a racist, is my well-thought out position here.
posted by dorisfromregopark at 10:59 AM on June 6, 2006
Forgive the quotes, but MMB needs to answer for his not-sexy behavior. You should be able to call someone an idiot without being labeled a racist, is my well-thought out position here.
posted by dorisfromregopark at 10:59 AM on June 6, 2006
To be clear, my bombastic answer was intended to inspire a little outrage and spine growth in what I saw as radioamy's continued pussy-footing around with a continuing problem - a problem that's one of of intentful dominance and submission, superior and inferior and all that.
Somewhere out there, there is a street encyclopedia, and one of the articles is "How to determine if you live in the ghetto or not." Entry 5a-iii even reads, and I quote: "Neigbors stealing your water and power, squattin' on your stoop, and otherwise living 8 to a bedroom, and the cops and landlord don't care? You probably live in the ghetto."
One does not pussyfoot in the (if only proverbial) ghetto.
Problems left to fester grow worse. Etc. Whole neighborhoods go downhill fast at the whim of one mean dude, one mean household or one mean group of chuckleheads testing the boundaries of their neighbors and then pushing and pushing them.
Again, this has nothing to do with race. But it has everything to do with class - and I'm not talking about classism, either. Simply, some people have a little class and some don't.
Though these previous words are loaded and people are rightfully hair-trigger touchy about the whole thing, nearly any repeated combination of words involving "electricity" "water" "thieves" "disrespectful" "invasive" and "abusive" should pretty much be fighting words to any sane, rational adult.
Add to that mix "peeping through windows" and all that shit, and some of these guys are really and truly asking to become familiar with the wrong end of a baseball bat in the right (wrong) neighborhood. I'm serious. And you know what? They fucking well know it, too. They just think they can get away with it where they are now, and they can and have been.
posted by loquacious at 11:42 AM on June 6, 2006
Somewhere out there, there is a street encyclopedia, and one of the articles is "How to determine if you live in the ghetto or not." Entry 5a-iii even reads, and I quote: "Neigbors stealing your water and power, squattin' on your stoop, and otherwise living 8 to a bedroom, and the cops and landlord don't care? You probably live in the ghetto."
One does not pussyfoot in the (if only proverbial) ghetto.
Problems left to fester grow worse. Etc. Whole neighborhoods go downhill fast at the whim of one mean dude, one mean household or one mean group of chuckleheads testing the boundaries of their neighbors and then pushing and pushing them.
Again, this has nothing to do with race. But it has everything to do with class - and I'm not talking about classism, either. Simply, some people have a little class and some don't.
Though these previous words are loaded and people are rightfully hair-trigger touchy about the whole thing, nearly any repeated combination of words involving "electricity" "water" "thieves" "disrespectful" "invasive" and "abusive" should pretty much be fighting words to any sane, rational adult.
Add to that mix "peeping through windows" and all that shit, and some of these guys are really and truly asking to become familiar with the wrong end of a baseball bat in the right (wrong) neighborhood. I'm serious. And you know what? They fucking well know it, too. They just think they can get away with it where they are now, and they can and have been.
posted by loquacious at 11:42 AM on June 6, 2006
loquacious, all that smalltype stuff in your post just sounded like a lot of "some of my best friends are Mexicans" and didn't really address the problem.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:54 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:54 AM on June 6, 2006
If it makes you feel better loquacious, I kept whinching thinking you'd say something completely racist to void whatever you said before but you managed to remain rational and eloquent in a topic that you could easily and unintentionally trip up.
posted by geoff. at 11:57 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by geoff. at 11:57 AM on June 6, 2006
And here I thought Buford was dead and gone. I'm beginning to suspect he went into the witness relocation program and retired to Mesa, where he masquerades as an artist by day.
posted by Gamblor at 11:58 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by Gamblor at 11:58 AM on June 6, 2006
I would agree jessamyn under 99% of circumstances, but it does give credence to his understanding of machismo and how to deal with it. Perhaps it went on a bit long but it did show that he didn't learn machismo from wikipedia and actually had real experience in dealing with it.
posted by geoff. at 11:59 AM on June 6, 2006
posted by geoff. at 11:59 AM on June 6, 2006
I kept whinching thinking you'd say something completely racist...
Why? It is possible (and entirely reasonable, imo) to be genuinely upset about people stealing from you, squatting on your stoop, and peeping in your windows, irrespective of their color/ethnicity.
posted by Gamblor at 12:14 PM on June 6, 2006
Why? It is possible (and entirely reasonable, imo) to be genuinely upset about people stealing from you, squatting on your stoop, and peeping in your windows, irrespective of their color/ethnicity.
posted by Gamblor at 12:14 PM on June 6, 2006
loquacious, all that smalltype stuff in your post just sounded like a lot of "some of my best friends are Mexicans" and didn't really address the problem.
Yeah, I know. Meh. But what the hell am I supposed to say in this current climate? I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't.
If I wasn't broke and barely living paycheck to paycheck in a shack in the (for real, straight up) ghetto of downtown-central Phoenix, I would have been at the recent 150,000-250,000 person immigration reform march here instead of at work.
It's a confusing and loaded issue for me, and a lot of people close to me. It's even confusing and loaded for my thoroughly Latino roommate/landlord, who half owns this artist-weirdo compound I currently dwell in.
And people get pissy when you point out that, yes, there is a culturally prevalent chauvinist/macho thing in many segments of Latino culture. It shouldn't be racist to acknowledge that, but some people wrongly think that it is.
On preview, what geoff. said. It's street cred. In your context, it might be silly or "Some of my best friends are black/gay." In my context, it's "Hey, don't call gringo, wetback. Let's go get us some carnitas and drink some Pacifico and smoke a little mota."
posted by loquacious at 12:15 PM on June 6, 2006
Yeah, I know. Meh. But what the hell am I supposed to say in this current climate? I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't.
If I wasn't broke and barely living paycheck to paycheck in a shack in the (for real, straight up) ghetto of downtown-central Phoenix, I would have been at the recent 150,000-250,000 person immigration reform march here instead of at work.
It's a confusing and loaded issue for me, and a lot of people close to me. It's even confusing and loaded for my thoroughly Latino roommate/landlord, who half owns this artist-weirdo compound I currently dwell in.
And people get pissy when you point out that, yes, there is a culturally prevalent chauvinist/macho thing in many segments of Latino culture. It shouldn't be racist to acknowledge that, but some people wrongly think that it is.
On preview, what geoff. said. It's street cred. In your context, it might be silly or "Some of my best friends are black/gay." In my context, it's "Hey, don't call gringo, wetback. Let's go get us some carnitas and drink some Pacifico and smoke a little mota."
posted by loquacious at 12:15 PM on June 6, 2006
Err, "Hey, don't call me gringo..." I mean.
Also, I don't live inMormonvilleMesa anymore, I moved about a month ago to downtown Phx. I need to update that.
posted by loquacious at 12:19 PM on June 6, 2006
Also, I don't live in
posted by loquacious at 12:19 PM on June 6, 2006
I'd submit there's a prevalent chauvinist and macho thing in many segments of every culture on this planet.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
posted by languagehat at 12:49 PM on June 6, 2006
Took the words right out of my mouth.
posted by languagehat at 12:49 PM on June 6, 2006
languagehat: Took the words right out of my mouth.And that, ladies and gentleman, is why we don't call him languagemouth.
That, and languagemouth sounds like something you might have caught in the trenches of WWII!
posted by sequential at 1:34 PM on June 6, 2006
OK, a few points (timezones mean I've been asleep and this thing has got a lot more heated in the duration):
Smoke from a downstairs barbecue, check. Noisy air-conditioner keeping us awake, check. Loud singing late at night, check?
The people involved were Tongan, Chinese and Palestinian. But it wasn't Chinese smoke. It wasn't a Palestinian airconditioner, and it wasn't Tongan singing. Well it was but you know what I mean.
Is there any reason to mention race if I ask AskMe about these problems? I don't speak Chinese, but the guy downstairs speaks OK English, and Amy speaks Spanish, so there's no need. Same with the other problems.
I might mention the Tongans because Tongans tend to size, and the head of their household is a tattooed, six-foot-six rugby player who could tear me limb from limb without much effort and I'd be less likely to start a controntation with her as a result.
Do I think amy's racist? Yes, sadly, I do. Racism of a rather mealy-mouthed, passive-aggressive sort. There's a clear note of "...and we know that those people are like". And then loquatious comes right out and tells us exactly what these people are like.
So to sum up, radioamy's question is "I have some assholes for neighbours, what should I do?". But it comes freighted with a ton of assumptions, simply because the assholes are hispanic.
And just in case you missed it, we don't even know whose electricity they're stealing. Much the better AskMe would have been "Someone's stealing the electricity from a box attached to my house. Am I paying for it? How do I find out?"
If you think loquatious is the knight on a white horse protecting American womanhood and I'm some nerdy PC asshole, then you're free to think that. I'm Australian, after all, and we all know what they're like.
But the next time someone writes "My neighbours are [doing something bad]. They're [of a certain race/nationality]" I'm going to ask what that last part has to do with it, and I encourage you to do the same.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 1:42 PM on June 6, 2006
- Any time someone mentions someone's race when it's not immediately relevant, I think it's useful to ask why. If you say to me "There's a new guy in Accounts Payable called Bob. [pause] He's Jewish." I'll ask you the same thing.
- It might be relevant if there was a language barrier, but there clearly isn't. radioamy is able to speak to them in Spanish.
- When radioamy uses the word "Latino" it doesn't appear to mean "person of Latin American extraction", it appears to mean "migrant worker, probably illegal, definitely not a citizen". Is that the normal meaning of the word for most Americans? One of Amy's key assumptions is that these people are illegals. That's not subtext, it's text.
- The example of the Chinese guy who didn't know about recycling is one where there really is a cultural difference. Recycling is an unusual, purely cultural phenomenon like a religion that only some countries have. You need to explain it, and you need to ask people to respect it. But people who steal your power (and we haven't even established that yet) are called thieves. People who get in your personal space and leave garbage on your step are called assholes -- if you tell me that you have thieves and assholes living next to you and then say "but they're Latino, and I know there are cultural differences" what's the conclusion I'm to draw? That Latino people are more likely to be thieves and assholes? The "cultural differences" aren't so great that they think electricity is free or that someone cleans up their garbage, so what's left?
- What's left, according to amy's supporter loquatious is that, yes, these things are happening because the men are "Latino" and he's added the dimension that that it's happening because amy's female and Latino men tend to disrespect women. His advice includes "take a bat to someone's car", to physically assault their "Den mother" and if you don't stop it now, someone will rape you. He says he'd be just as mad if the guys were white. Somehow I don't think so.
Smoke from a downstairs barbecue, check. Noisy air-conditioner keeping us awake, check. Loud singing late at night, check?
The people involved were Tongan, Chinese and Palestinian. But it wasn't Chinese smoke. It wasn't a Palestinian airconditioner, and it wasn't Tongan singing. Well it was but you know what I mean.
Is there any reason to mention race if I ask AskMe about these problems? I don't speak Chinese, but the guy downstairs speaks OK English, and Amy speaks Spanish, so there's no need. Same with the other problems.
I might mention the Tongans because Tongans tend to size, and the head of their household is a tattooed, six-foot-six rugby player who could tear me limb from limb without much effort and I'd be less likely to start a controntation with her as a result.
Do I think amy's racist? Yes, sadly, I do. Racism of a rather mealy-mouthed, passive-aggressive sort. There's a clear note of "...and we know that those people are like". And then loquatious comes right out and tells us exactly what these people are like.
So to sum up, radioamy's question is "I have some assholes for neighbours, what should I do?". But it comes freighted with a ton of assumptions, simply because the assholes are hispanic.
And just in case you missed it, we don't even know whose electricity they're stealing. Much the better AskMe would have been "Someone's stealing the electricity from a box attached to my house. Am I paying for it? How do I find out?"
If you think loquatious is the knight on a white horse protecting American womanhood and I'm some nerdy PC asshole, then you're free to think that. I'm Australian, after all, and we all know what they're like.
But the next time someone writes "My neighbours are [doing something bad]. They're [of a certain race/nationality]" I'm going to ask what that last part has to do with it, and I encourage you to do the same.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 1:42 PM on June 6, 2006
ambrose, here in the states, we have a very diverse population of ethnics. when radioamy described her neighbors as such, it allowed me, and many other americans, to understand the situation quickly. in other words, typing 'latino' was a lot faster then describing a group of young men who sit on the stoop, drink alcohol, and harass women.
radioamy, in her efforts at understanding what is going on, asked us if what she was experiencing was within the norm. it isn't--she has shitty neighbors. the fact that they are latino is a coincidence, but identifying them as such helped us understand her situation.
their culture is somewhat different then my own: it is common, for example for young latino men to shout out crude things to passing unescorted women. i find this distasteful, however the latinas accept this in stride.
if you had a group of american college kids next door doing the same thing, and you posted the same kind of question that radioamy did, would you identify them as american college kids?
posted by lester at 1:55 PM on June 6, 2006
radioamy, in her efforts at understanding what is going on, asked us if what she was experiencing was within the norm. it isn't--she has shitty neighbors. the fact that they are latino is a coincidence, but identifying them as such helped us understand her situation.
their culture is somewhat different then my own: it is common, for example for young latino men to shout out crude things to passing unescorted women. i find this distasteful, however the latinas accept this in stride.
if you had a group of american college kids next door doing the same thing, and you posted the same kind of question that radioamy did, would you identify them as american college kids?
posted by lester at 1:55 PM on June 6, 2006
Is there any reason to mention race if I ask AskMe about these problems?Who cares? Answer the question or keep out of the thread.
If you think...I'm some nerdy PC asshole, then you're free to think that. ...But the next time someone writes "My neighbours are [doing something bad]. They're [of a certain race/nationality]" I'm going to ask what that last part has to do with it, and I encourage you to do the same.Then yes, you're a hyper-PC asshole. And since you're blatantly threatening to break the rules of AskMe next time they interfere with your soapbox, you should be banned right now.
Any time someone mentions someone's race when it's not immediately relevant, I think it's useful to ask why.No, it's not. Maybe you can articulate some bullshit about how it helps the world to expose unconscious racism, but all you're saying is that you're a selfish fanatic who defines what's "useful" as whatever fits his personal crusade. On AskMe, the only comments that are "useful" are the ones that answer the question. If it doesn't, then it's not.
You're abusing AskMe. Read the guidelines.
posted by cribcage at 1:59 PM on June 6, 2006
cribcage: "Then yes, you're a hyper-PC asshole. And since you're blatantly threatening to break the rules of AskMe next time they interfere with your soapbox, you should be banned right now.
Wow.
My sympathies are with AbroseChapel here: I though the same exact thing on reading the thread and I am not a hyper PC asshole on a fanatical soapbox.
If the ethnicity of the neighbors is relevant, then please explain why in the question. If you don't, it sounds very much like you are either attributing the power stealing to your neighbors' ethnicity. Even the "explanation" that followed: I was just wondering if there's some cultural element to this behavior I need to understand...sounds ridiculous.
Would you call him an asshole if we changed "latino" to "black"?
My black neighbors are stealing my power! How do I deal with black people? Some cultural contingencies to factor in?
I wouldn't call a gentle rebuke of what is rather, to my mind, stupidly called "unconcsious" racism a selfish, fanatical personal crusade.
posted by kosem at 2:48 PM on June 6, 2006
Wow.
My sympathies are with AbroseChapel here: I though the same exact thing on reading the thread and I am not a hyper PC asshole on a fanatical soapbox.
If the ethnicity of the neighbors is relevant, then please explain why in the question. If you don't, it sounds very much like you are either attributing the power stealing to your neighbors' ethnicity. Even the "explanation" that followed: I was just wondering if there's some cultural element to this behavior I need to understand...sounds ridiculous.
Would you call him an asshole if we changed "latino" to "black"?
My black neighbors are stealing my power! How do I deal with black people? Some cultural contingencies to factor in?
I wouldn't call a gentle rebuke of what is rather, to my mind, stupidly called "unconcsious" racism a selfish, fanatical personal crusade.
posted by kosem at 2:48 PM on June 6, 2006
What's left, according to amy's supporter loquatious is that, yes, these things are happening because the men are "Latino" and he's added the dimension that that it's happening because amy's female and Latino men tend to disrespect women. His advice includes "take a bat to someone's car", to physically assault their "Den mother" and if you don't stop it now, someone will rape you. He says he'd be just as mad if the guys were white. Somehow I don't think so.
I really don't want to jump into this, but I feel like I should say something. I've spent the past two years living in the thick of extremely immigrant-heavy Latino communities, and have some practical experience with what loquacious is talking about. I really don't give a flying fuck about someone's genetics or skin color. I do not care where someone grew up. I do, however, hate the effect that wholesale exportation of Latino culture has had on the area in which I live. That is not racist because I am not judging anybody based on genetics, and it's not even discriminating against any particular individual on cultural grounds.
This fall I will be moving out of the Marlborough/Framingham area after living in two different places here for two years, back to the Waltham area. A big part of why I am doing this is that I am sick of having to contend with neighbors who leave their crap lying all around the yard of the apartment complex, of the incredible noise level put up by them, and of the fact that most of them won't even TRY to speak English. Back in Waltham I was at one time - and will be again - living elbow to elbow with a massive Pakistani immigrant population, and none of those negatives are true there.
I've met a lot of people who are genetically Hispanic that I like quite a bit. I've met people who grew up in south/central America that I like quite a bit. But when the Latino culture gets exported to my community as a whole - regardless of the racial makeup of the people involved - it annoys the fuck out of me for exactly the reasons loquacious detailed.
I can't speak for loquacious, but if you were to say that I wouldn't be just as mad if the people involved were white, or asian, or black, then you'd be dead fucking wrong. It's simply that being thrust into the middle of Latino culture is maddeningly frustrating for me, much in the way that the times I've been thrust into the middle of Oriental culture have been a pleasure.
posted by Ryvar at 2:53 PM on June 6, 2006
I really don't want to jump into this, but I feel like I should say something. I've spent the past two years living in the thick of extremely immigrant-heavy Latino communities, and have some practical experience with what loquacious is talking about. I really don't give a flying fuck about someone's genetics or skin color. I do not care where someone grew up. I do, however, hate the effect that wholesale exportation of Latino culture has had on the area in which I live. That is not racist because I am not judging anybody based on genetics, and it's not even discriminating against any particular individual on cultural grounds.
This fall I will be moving out of the Marlborough/Framingham area after living in two different places here for two years, back to the Waltham area. A big part of why I am doing this is that I am sick of having to contend with neighbors who leave their crap lying all around the yard of the apartment complex, of the incredible noise level put up by them, and of the fact that most of them won't even TRY to speak English. Back in Waltham I was at one time - and will be again - living elbow to elbow with a massive Pakistani immigrant population, and none of those negatives are true there.
I've met a lot of people who are genetically Hispanic that I like quite a bit. I've met people who grew up in south/central America that I like quite a bit. But when the Latino culture gets exported to my community as a whole - regardless of the racial makeup of the people involved - it annoys the fuck out of me for exactly the reasons loquacious detailed.
I can't speak for loquacious, but if you were to say that I wouldn't be just as mad if the people involved were white, or asian, or black, then you'd be dead fucking wrong. It's simply that being thrust into the middle of Latino culture is maddeningly frustrating for me, much in the way that the times I've been thrust into the middle of Oriental culture have been a pleasure.
posted by Ryvar at 2:53 PM on June 6, 2006
If the ethnicity of the neighbors is relevant, then please explain why in the question. If you don't, it sounds very much like you are either attributing the power stealing to your neighbors' ethnicity.So what?
Your hypothetical is stupid. She didn't ask how to deal with Hispanics. At worst, maybe she included an irrelevant detail. If that leads you to conclude that she's racist, I think that says more about you than her — but just for argument's sake, let's say that you're right. So what?
Maybe she's a racist who worships Hitler. Who cares? She asked a specific question. She might be a terrible human being, but she wasn't abusing AskMe. If you don't want to help her, fine. Keep out of the thread. And keep your judgments to yourself.
posted by cribcage at 2:57 PM on June 6, 2006
Ambrose said "One of Amy's key assumptions is that these people are illegals."
Honestly, I don't care whether they're legal or not and I refuse to make any assumptions about it. When I say Latino, I literally mean "people who come from a country in the area known as Latin America, speak Spanish, and play Spanish-language and Mariachi-type music (I don't really know what you call it, but you know exactly what I'm talking about)."
Kosem: Would it be relevant if they were black? Maybe. I'm being completely honest. I consider myself very PC, but I think it's incredibly naieve to ignore race and nationality and pretend they're not issues. Especially living in New Orleans, a city in which the black and white cultures are very different (exacerbated by the fact that generally in this city black=very poor and white=rich).
posted by radioamy at 3:08 PM on June 6, 2006
Honestly, I don't care whether they're legal or not and I refuse to make any assumptions about it. When I say Latino, I literally mean "people who come from a country in the area known as Latin America, speak Spanish, and play Spanish-language and Mariachi-type music (I don't really know what you call it, but you know exactly what I'm talking about)."
Kosem: Would it be relevant if they were black? Maybe. I'm being completely honest. I consider myself very PC, but I think it's incredibly naieve to ignore race and nationality and pretend they're not issues. Especially living in New Orleans, a city in which the black and white cultures are very different (exacerbated by the fact that generally in this city black=very poor and white=rich).
posted by radioamy at 3:08 PM on June 6, 2006
IKS GRIPLAR NON KHUCKHAHA LOLANNIC PEMBURTONOID UMPHRACKEL.
posted by quonsar at 3:22 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by quonsar at 3:22 PM on June 6, 2006
typing 'latino' was a lot faster then describing a group of young men who sit on the stoop, drink alcohol, and harass women.
Well at least we know you're not racist...
When I say Latino, I literally mean "people who come from a country in the area known as Latin America, speak Spanish, and play Spanish-language and Mariachi-type music
I had a long detailed answer to this, but I've just deleted it. You consider yourself "PC" but you think all "Latinos" listen to Mariachi music. I think I can just leave that for other people to judge.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 3:22 PM on June 6, 2006
Well at least we know you're not racist...
When I say Latino, I literally mean "people who come from a country in the area known as Latin America, speak Spanish, and play Spanish-language and Mariachi-type music
I had a long detailed answer to this, but I've just deleted it. You consider yourself "PC" but you think all "Latinos" listen to Mariachi music. I think I can just leave that for other people to judge.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 3:22 PM on June 6, 2006
On the charge of "abusing AskMe" and "blatantly threatening to break the rules", can I have some clarification?
I think it's within the rules to ask why some detail has been included in an AskMe post. There might have been a very sensible answer.
Here's another example of a neighbour: an Indian lady who rings a little bell on her balcony every morning. I can barely hear it from inside my place, but say it was bugging the hell out of me. It might be entirely relevant to say "any Hindus want to comment?" and Hindus might very well say "it's something we all do in May, don't worry it'll be over soon" or "it means her husband died, please be sympathetic" or something.
Race and culture in that situation are relevant.
In this case, I still maintain it isn't, unless, as I said before, we think "Latino culture" means dropping garbage everywhere, insulting women and petty theft. Clearly some people on this thread think it means exactly that, and thank you for being so honest about it.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 3:31 PM on June 6, 2006
I think it's within the rules to ask why some detail has been included in an AskMe post. There might have been a very sensible answer.
Here's another example of a neighbour: an Indian lady who rings a little bell on her balcony every morning. I can barely hear it from inside my place, but say it was bugging the hell out of me. It might be entirely relevant to say "any Hindus want to comment?" and Hindus might very well say "it's something we all do in May, don't worry it'll be over soon" or "it means her husband died, please be sympathetic" or something.
Race and culture in that situation are relevant.
In this case, I still maintain it isn't, unless, as I said before, we think "Latino culture" means dropping garbage everywhere, insulting women and petty theft. Clearly some people on this thread think it means exactly that, and thank you for being so honest about it.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 3:31 PM on June 6, 2006
Race and culture in that situation are relevant.
Maybe so. But OTOH, a Hindu could pop in and say that it has nothing to do with being Hindu and why would they possibly feel the need to mention that fact, when it's just a senile old woman. I mean, they must be a racist to assume that all wacky things a Hindu does is because of their religion.
posted by smackfu at 3:51 PM on June 6, 2006
Maybe so. But OTOH, a Hindu could pop in and say that it has nothing to do with being Hindu and why would they possibly feel the need to mention that fact, when it's just a senile old woman. I mean, they must be a racist to assume that all wacky things a Hindu does is because of their religion.
posted by smackfu at 3:51 PM on June 6, 2006
Apparently they also think Latinos are illegal immigrants, and should be immediately reported to the INS.
Yes, they do. The OP does. When she says "don't care whether they're legal or not and I refuse to make any assumptions about it." that clashes somewhat with her earlier "I am not looking to get them deported or whatever". That is one of her assumptions.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 3:53 PM on June 6, 2006
Yes, they do. The OP does. When she says "don't care whether they're legal or not and I refuse to make any assumptions about it." that clashes somewhat with her earlier "I am not looking to get them deported or whatever". That is one of her assumptions.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 3:53 PM on June 6, 2006
why would they possibly feel the need to mention that fact, when it's just a senile old woman
Who said she was old?
What she's doing is clearly cultural or ceremonial. That's why it's relevant.
Only if you imagine that all of Latin America is one huge garbage heap and that therefore, having beer bottles strewn around is part of Latin culture, could a similar question be relevant in this case. It requires to you factor into your PC-on-the-surface lip service to "cultural differences" the idea that people from some cultures are simply used to living surrounded by garbage and we should take that into account.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 4:01 PM on June 6, 2006
Who said she was old?
What she's doing is clearly cultural or ceremonial. That's why it's relevant.
Only if you imagine that all of Latin America is one huge garbage heap and that therefore, having beer bottles strewn around is part of Latin culture, could a similar question be relevant in this case. It requires to you factor into your PC-on-the-surface lip service to "cultural differences" the idea that people from some cultures are simply used to living surrounded by garbage and we should take that into account.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 4:01 PM on June 6, 2006
At least Latinos maintain a diet of fruit and mango juice instead of Kool-Aid and fried chicken like all those Japanese schoolgirls.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 4:11 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 4:11 PM on June 6, 2006
Why did you feel the need to mention that the juice was "mango"?
posted by smackfu at 4:12 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by smackfu at 4:12 PM on June 6, 2006
I'm with AmbroseChapel.
Well, with his interpretation of the racism present behind the question, not necessarily with his use of Ask to call the poster out. Personally, I leave that kind of question well alone, if the poster is so scared of people who speak Spanish, and can't work out for themselves to simply call the cops and the electricity company.
posted by Jimbob at 4:44 PM on June 6, 2006
Well, with his interpretation of the racism present behind the question, not necessarily with his use of Ask to call the poster out. Personally, I leave that kind of question well alone, if the poster is so scared of people who speak Spanish, and can't work out for themselves to simply call the cops and the electricity company.
posted by Jimbob at 4:44 PM on June 6, 2006
radioamy: I consider myself very PC, but I think it's incredibly naieve to ignore race and nationality and pretend they're not issues.
Of course, radioamy, race and nationality are issues. But they are not issues here (and frankly, I didn't think you made it too much of an issue in the original post--although you certainly got well into it in your follow up comments). Ignoring race and ethnicity in America will almost always obscure. No one is asking you to pretend that the people who are stealing your power are not Latino. But being Latino has nothing to do with their stealing. Nor does it have anything to do with their propensity to steal your power.
When you point it out--when you say "my latino worker neighbors," "my black neighbors," "my jewish neighbors," you let us know that you consider this to be their essential characteristic--and that in some way, the blackness, the latin-ness, the jewishness is an important part of the story. Which it isn't, or at the very least, it should not be.
posted by kosem at 5:07 PM on June 6, 2006
Of course, radioamy, race and nationality are issues. But they are not issues here (and frankly, I didn't think you made it too much of an issue in the original post--although you certainly got well into it in your follow up comments). Ignoring race and ethnicity in America will almost always obscure. No one is asking you to pretend that the people who are stealing your power are not Latino. But being Latino has nothing to do with their stealing. Nor does it have anything to do with their propensity to steal your power.
When you point it out--when you say "my latino worker neighbors," "my black neighbors," "my jewish neighbors," you let us know that you consider this to be their essential characteristic--and that in some way, the blackness, the latin-ness, the jewishness is an important part of the story. Which it isn't, or at the very least, it should not be.
posted by kosem at 5:07 PM on June 6, 2006
Only if you imagine that all of Latin America is one huge garbage heap and that therefore, having beer bottles strewn around is part of Latin culture, could a similar question be relevant in this case.
Yes. That is the only explanation. There are no alternatives, such as "the culture of Latin America tends to take a relaxed view on property rights and personal boundaries." The strawman you've setup is the only thing those who oppose you could possibly be thinking.
Way to stay open-minded.a
But being Latino has nothing to do with their stealing.
Are you saying that being Hispanic (the race) has nothing to do with their stealing, or being Latino (the culture)?
posted by Ryvar at 5:13 PM on June 6, 2006
Yes. That is the only explanation. There are no alternatives, such as "the culture of Latin America tends to take a relaxed view on property rights and personal boundaries." The strawman you've setup is the only thing those who oppose you could possibly be thinking.
Way to stay open-minded.a
But being Latino has nothing to do with their stealing.
Are you saying that being Hispanic (the race) has nothing to do with their stealing, or being Latino (the culture)?
posted by Ryvar at 5:13 PM on June 6, 2006
Speaking of race in AskMe.
Back on subject, I personally don't feel any seriously pressing need to defend myself from Australia who really doesn't know who I am, my history, and what the fuck it's like over here.
Especially when they choose to ignore the fact that I'm pro-immigration, and pro-immigration reform, that I cherish the positive influences Latino culture has brought to the American Southwest - and, by fuck - I wholly acknowledge that I was born, raised and grew up in what used to be Mexico before the US stole the land with all that Eminent Domain horsefuckery.
Ah, there I go again, I'm defending myself. Screw it.
posted by loquacious at 5:25 PM on June 6, 2006
Back on subject, I personally don't feel any seriously pressing need to defend myself from Australia who really doesn't know who I am, my history, and what the fuck it's like over here.
Especially when they choose to ignore the fact that I'm pro-immigration, and pro-immigration reform, that I cherish the positive influences Latino culture has brought to the American Southwest - and, by fuck - I wholly acknowledge that I was born, raised and grew up in what used to be Mexico before the US stole the land with all that Eminent Domain horsefuckery.
Ah, there I go again, I'm defending myself. Screw it.
posted by loquacious at 5:25 PM on June 6, 2006
The strawman you've setup is the only thing those who oppose you could possibly be thinking.
Well it's helpful that you replaced it with a new and opposing straw man then. Makes a change.
For about the four-thousandth time, the actual problem as stated is simply "people appear to be stealing electricity from the building I live in".
Please, by all means explain how the race or culture makes a difference in this case.
Option A: The person is, let's say, Norwegian. You go to them and say "Dude. you appear to be stealing electricity. This is not cool. Cut that out or I'm going to have to call the cops and nobody wants that."
Option B: The person is Chileno. You go to them and say "Dude. you appear to be stealing electricity. This is not cool. Cut that out or I'm going to have to call the cops and nobody wants that."
Are you honestly proposing that Option B go like:"Dude. you appear to be stealing electricity. Now I know that you people have a more relaxed view of personal property, being Latino and what-all, but I'm here to tell you that in the USA, this is not cool. Cut that out or I'm going to have to call the cops and nobody wants that."
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:28 PM on June 6, 2006
Well it's helpful that you replaced it with a new and opposing straw man then. Makes a change.
For about the four-thousandth time, the actual problem as stated is simply "people appear to be stealing electricity from the building I live in".
Please, by all means explain how the race or culture makes a difference in this case.
Option A: The person is, let's say, Norwegian. You go to them and say "Dude. you appear to be stealing electricity. This is not cool. Cut that out or I'm going to have to call the cops and nobody wants that."
Option B: The person is Chileno. You go to them and say "Dude. you appear to be stealing electricity. This is not cool. Cut that out or I'm going to have to call the cops and nobody wants that."
Are you honestly proposing that Option B go like:"Dude. you appear to be stealing electricity. Now I know that you people have a more relaxed view of personal property, being Latino and what-all, but I'm here to tell you that in the USA, this is not cool. Cut that out or I'm going to have to call the cops and nobody wants that."
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:28 PM on June 6, 2006
languagehat wins.
also, if it's worth anything, i'm going to chime in on the "mentioning a person's race doesn't automatically make you racist" side of things. feeling differently means that you believe race should never be mentioned. this is an absurd proposition in the real world where different cultures can sometimes come with ethnic delineations and dealing with culture clash is sometimes superficially identifiable by a difference in ethnicities.
that said, that screed about "i'm not a racist, but i'm sick of the latinos leaving their garbage everywhere" thing was abhorrent. it is entirely possible to develop bigoted attitudes toward a particular ethnicity, when you never felt that way before, through prolonged contact with people of that ethnicity who for whatever reason bothered you. failing to realize that you're just feeling that way about a person or group of individuals and instead identifying your feelings with an entire ethnicity is a serious problem.
posted by shmegegge at 5:38 PM on June 6, 2006
also, if it's worth anything, i'm going to chime in on the "mentioning a person's race doesn't automatically make you racist" side of things. feeling differently means that you believe race should never be mentioned. this is an absurd proposition in the real world where different cultures can sometimes come with ethnic delineations and dealing with culture clash is sometimes superficially identifiable by a difference in ethnicities.
that said, that screed about "i'm not a racist, but i'm sick of the latinos leaving their garbage everywhere" thing was abhorrent. it is entirely possible to develop bigoted attitudes toward a particular ethnicity, when you never felt that way before, through prolonged contact with people of that ethnicity who for whatever reason bothered you. failing to realize that you're just feeling that way about a person or group of individuals and instead identifying your feelings with an entire ethnicity is a serious problem.
posted by shmegegge at 5:38 PM on June 6, 2006
Yeah but a Norwegian typically wouldn't steal your juice.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 5:39 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 5:39 PM on June 6, 2006
Ambrose: it absolutely does not affect how you approach them because you have to treat individual people as individual people - fucking duh. You should have a respectful demanor towards someone regardless of their race OR culture. Someone being from a Latin culture does not dictate nor excuse their actions, it merely influences it. I think loquacious is, again, on the money here - you need to come experience it for yourself.
posted by Ryvar at 5:41 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by Ryvar at 5:41 PM on June 6, 2006
loquacious, you have no idea how much time I've spent in the USA and whether I know what it's like "over there" or not. What does "over there" mean anyway? Where are you from?
radioamy, it seems, is from Texas. And we all know what those people are like, right?
You clearly have very mixed feelings about this issue. You've lived in Mexico, you've dated a Latina girl, you've hung out with Latin people for many years, and your portrayal of your relationships with Latin people is couched sometimes in terms of affection, but just as often in terms of anger and violence. Your association with Latin people counts toward your "street" credibility; one of your first suggestions was to call the migration authorities and another was to destroy their property with a baseball bat; you say that rape is a logical conclusion of this chain of events.
Do you honestly think that kind of thing makes you seem impartial?
Is there any more of your story you want to tell?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:42 PM on June 6, 2006
radioamy, it seems, is from Texas. And we all know what those people are like, right?
You clearly have very mixed feelings about this issue. You've lived in Mexico, you've dated a Latina girl, you've hung out with Latin people for many years, and your portrayal of your relationships with Latin people is couched sometimes in terms of affection, but just as often in terms of anger and violence. Your association with Latin people counts toward your "street" credibility; one of your first suggestions was to call the migration authorities and another was to destroy their property with a baseball bat; you say that rape is a logical conclusion of this chain of events.
Do you honestly think that kind of thing makes you seem impartial?
Is there any more of your story you want to tell?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:42 PM on June 6, 2006
i'm going to chime in on the "mentioning a person's race doesn't automatically make you racist" side of things. feeling differently means that you believe race should never be mentioned.
That's not what I said, ever. I've been mentioning people's race in a number of examples and I've simply been asking, over and over and over again, for a reason why race is relevant here.
you need to come experience it for yourself
You're saying if I was around these particular Latin people, I'd start to hate them too? I probably would, because they sound like assholes. But I hope I wouldn't ascribe their assholishness to their Latin-ness or take that baggage with me to the next Latin person I met.
The real problem here, of course, is men living apart from their families in temporary accommodation in a place they have no commitment to. It's the same the world over. They don't give a crap. They're tired and bored and feel disrespected and lonely and homesick and miss their mothers. You'd probably have a lot of the same problems -- or problems just as annoying but different -- if they were Irish or British or Australia or indeed, Norwegian. Don't get me started on the Norwegians.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:51 PM on June 6, 2006
That's not what I said, ever. I've been mentioning people's race in a number of examples and I've simply been asking, over and over and over again, for a reason why race is relevant here.
you need to come experience it for yourself
You're saying if I was around these particular Latin people, I'd start to hate them too? I probably would, because they sound like assholes. But I hope I wouldn't ascribe their assholishness to their Latin-ness or take that baggage with me to the next Latin person I met.
The real problem here, of course, is men living apart from their families in temporary accommodation in a place they have no commitment to. It's the same the world over. They don't give a crap. They're tired and bored and feel disrespected and lonely and homesick and miss their mothers. You'd probably have a lot of the same problems -- or problems just as annoying but different -- if they were Irish or British or Australia or indeed, Norwegian. Don't get me started on the Norwegians.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:51 PM on June 6, 2006
I've simply been asking, over and over and over again, for a reason why race is relevant here.
Well, you also accused radioamy of being a mealy-mouthed, passive-aggressive racist.
Just sayin'.
posted by brain_drain at 5:56 PM on June 6, 2006
Well, you also accused radioamy of being a mealy-mouthed, passive-aggressive racist.
Just sayin'.
posted by brain_drain at 5:56 PM on June 6, 2006
"when you say "my latino worker neighbors," "my black neighbors," "my jewish neighbors," you let us know that you consider this to be their essential characteristic--and that in some way, the blackness, the latin-ness, the jewishness is an important part of the story"
The Jews already have all the power, so that's a straw man.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:57 PM on June 6, 2006
The Jews already have all the power, so that's a straw man.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:57 PM on June 6, 2006
Well, you also accused radioamy of being a mealy-mouthed, passive-aggressive racist.
I certainly said that's the impression I'd formed, yes, but that's not quite the same thing. I would love amy to post something that made me change my mind.
Actually you know what?
If this is really about macho Latin culture and their disrespect for women, maybe amy needs to get a male Latin friend of hers to come with her, visit the people who are causing the problem and say "stop disrespecting this woman" to them in language they'll understand.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:12 PM on June 6, 2006
I certainly said that's the impression I'd formed, yes, but that's not quite the same thing. I would love amy to post something that made me change my mind.
Actually you know what?
If this is really about macho Latin culture and their disrespect for women, maybe amy needs to get a male Latin friend of hers to come with her, visit the people who are causing the problem and say "stop disrespecting this woman" to them in language they'll understand.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:12 PM on June 6, 2006
You're saying if I was around these particular Latin people, I'd start to hate them too? I probably would, because they sound like assholes. But I hope I wouldn't ascribe their assholishness to their Latin-ness or take that baggage with me to the next Latin person I met.
Way to burn yet another strawman. I don't hate the individuals. More to the point, I don't hate the culture - I just wouldn't want to live next to it. I don't ascribe their assholishness to their race - I ascribe their lack of respect for the shared property in which we live to their culture. For them - and this is just my impression so I could be wrong - it's normal to live as one big familia. That's fine if it's your thing, I can see the sense of it and I think I could use a bit of it from time to time. But I wouldn't ever want to live that way 24/365.
The real problem here, of course, is men living apart from their families in temporary accommodation in a place they have no commitment to.
And here's the ultimate irony: you're a sexist. It isn't the men doing this in my case, at least. It's the mothers leaving the wash strung out on the balconies and their children's toys strewn all over the lawns of the complex. It's also the mothers who choose to speak Portugese (these are Brazilian immigrant families, all of them) as the ONLY language at home. I've never had any trouble from the men, ever.
posted by Ryvar at 6:15 PM on June 6, 2006
Way to burn yet another strawman. I don't hate the individuals. More to the point, I don't hate the culture - I just wouldn't want to live next to it. I don't ascribe their assholishness to their race - I ascribe their lack of respect for the shared property in which we live to their culture. For them - and this is just my impression so I could be wrong - it's normal to live as one big familia. That's fine if it's your thing, I can see the sense of it and I think I could use a bit of it from time to time. But I wouldn't ever want to live that way 24/365.
The real problem here, of course, is men living apart from their families in temporary accommodation in a place they have no commitment to.
And here's the ultimate irony: you're a sexist. It isn't the men doing this in my case, at least. It's the mothers leaving the wash strung out on the balconies and their children's toys strewn all over the lawns of the complex. It's also the mothers who choose to speak Portugese (these are Brazilian immigrant families, all of them) as the ONLY language at home. I've never had any trouble from the men, ever.
posted by Ryvar at 6:15 PM on June 6, 2006
And here's the ultimate irony: you're a sexist. It isn't the men doing this in my case, at least.
Oh for god's sake. I neither know nor care about your case. That came out of nowhere.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:18 PM on June 6, 2006
Oh for god's sake. I neither know nor care about your case. That came out of nowhere.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:18 PM on June 6, 2006
I neither know nor care about your case.
You don't know me, you don't care about my situation, you have no experience with the phenomenon being discussed here, and yet you feel free to pass judgement on me. Is there a really long German word for this? I feel like there should be.
posted by Ryvar at 6:26 PM on June 6, 2006
You don't know me, you don't care about my situation, you have no experience with the phenomenon being discussed here, and yet you feel free to pass judgement on me. Is there a really long German word for this? I feel like there should be.
posted by Ryvar at 6:26 PM on June 6, 2006
in other words, typing 'latino' was a lot faster then describing a group of young men who sit on the stoop, drink alcohol, and harass women.
This may seem equivalent to you, but your shorthand sure as hell isn't my shorthand.
their culture is somewhat different then my own: it is common, for example for young latino men to shout out crude things to passing unescorted women. i find this distasteful, however the latinas accept this in stride.
What? Eck! It is common for some young men...of any particular race...to ogle women and be crude, particularly in cities. Some women take it in stride, knowing that the whole point is to provoke a reaction.
posted by desuetude at 6:27 PM on June 6, 2006
This may seem equivalent to you, but your shorthand sure as hell isn't my shorthand.
their culture is somewhat different then my own: it is common, for example for young latino men to shout out crude things to passing unescorted women. i find this distasteful, however the latinas accept this in stride.
What? Eck! It is common for some young men...of any particular race...to ogle women and be crude, particularly in cities. Some women take it in stride, knowing that the whole point is to provoke a reaction.
posted by desuetude at 6:27 PM on June 6, 2006
(caddis continues his campaign to get mathowie to ban the image tag)
posted by smackfu at 6:28 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by smackfu at 6:28 PM on June 6, 2006
caddis, WTF? If you have nothing productive (or even remotely funny) to say, leave. These useless images are a waste of bandwidth and an eyesore.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:28 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:28 PM on June 6, 2006
You don't know me, you don't care about my situation, you have no experience with the phenomenon being discussed here, and yet you feel free to pass judgement on me.
Clearly, to any reasonable person, this is not what happened. I'm talking about amy, her thread and her situation. But don't worry. If you start a thread about how your Brazilian neighbours are all assholes, I promise you, I'll be there. Whenever they’s a fight so hungry people can eat, I’ll be there. Whenever they’s a cop beatin’ up a guy, I’ll be there . . .
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:39 PM on June 6, 2006
Clearly, to any reasonable person, this is not what happened. I'm talking about amy, her thread and her situation. But don't worry. If you start a thread about how your Brazilian neighbours are all assholes, I promise you, I'll be there. Whenever they’s a fight so hungry people can eat, I’ll be there. Whenever they’s a cop beatin’ up a guy, I’ll be there . . .
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:39 PM on June 6, 2006
OK, when you said "you need to come experience it for yourself" somehow I missed the clear and obvious Brazilian-mothers'-laundry-impropriety implications of that sentence. You meant, not amy's situation, not the US in general, but your particular building. I apologise for misunderstanding you.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:47 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:47 PM on June 6, 2006
You miss the point entirely - in your reply to me you passed judgement without even knowing what my situation was, let alone having experienced the phenomenon being discussed.
posted by Ryvar at 6:54 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by Ryvar at 6:54 PM on June 6, 2006
Uh, Ambrose, there a whole huge chunk of something you're missing.
Rape was once or still is an acceptable way of picking out a bride in rural Mexico, as well as a method of male oppression and violence - as it is in many, many patriarchal cultures around the world.
(And I make no defense of violent patriarchal societies anywhere.)
However the stories I've heard from some native Mexican women would make you throw up in your fucking shoes.
I brought up rape as a metaphoric tool to illuminate the gradiations of the offenses currently against here. Yeah, it's manipulative as hell and a strawman. But my whole motive and point was to motivate her into realizing that she was being too passive with a specific cultural subset that sees passivity as weakness.
Her current question ties in to her previous question posted to AskMe, which the combined total of the two questions with the what I percevied as passivity on radioamy's part was what set me off.
My arguments of violence aren't my own. I wouldn't need to smash up someone's car as I'm large, loud and male - I was using it as an extreme example of how radioamy could gain space and ground - and respect from a particular subset of people that wouldn't respect radioamy otherwise - SPECIFICALLY because she had been so passive for so long already, it would be one surefire way to gain that lost ground back. Of course, at the risk of one's "bluff" being called, but if there's no bluff, well, screw it.
I meant nothing more by it. If she wants peace at her current home at this point, she's pretty much going to have to do something extreme. To speak in their terms and language via the particular subset of a dialect, as it were. It is something a machismo-infused male would understand.
The "Nuke the thieving fuckers" thing is pure metaphor. Said metaphorical usage of The Gadget or Physics Package could be as simple as getting on her landlord's ass, or as confrontational as getting in their face and making them understand in no uncertain terms you've got the insanity and heuvos to deal with them, and that you're not intimidated by them.
That you yourself are unable to divorce the concept of an entire race from the concept of pointing out particular subsets or individuals a culture of pervasive or permissive violence and disrespect towards women is what bothers me the most.
At no point did anyone say anything remotely like "OMG all Latino men/people are teh evil!!!", but here you are sanctimoniously insisting over and over that we did.
I'm done.
posted by loquacious at 7:03 PM on June 6, 2006
Rape was once or still is an acceptable way of picking out a bride in rural Mexico, as well as a method of male oppression and violence - as it is in many, many patriarchal cultures around the world.
(And I make no defense of violent patriarchal societies anywhere.)
However the stories I've heard from some native Mexican women would make you throw up in your fucking shoes.
I brought up rape as a metaphoric tool to illuminate the gradiations of the offenses currently against here. Yeah, it's manipulative as hell and a strawman. But my whole motive and point was to motivate her into realizing that she was being too passive with a specific cultural subset that sees passivity as weakness.
Her current question ties in to her previous question posted to AskMe, which the combined total of the two questions with the what I percevied as passivity on radioamy's part was what set me off.
My arguments of violence aren't my own. I wouldn't need to smash up someone's car as I'm large, loud and male - I was using it as an extreme example of how radioamy could gain space and ground - and respect from a particular subset of people that wouldn't respect radioamy otherwise - SPECIFICALLY because she had been so passive for so long already, it would be one surefire way to gain that lost ground back. Of course, at the risk of one's "bluff" being called, but if there's no bluff, well, screw it.
I meant nothing more by it. If she wants peace at her current home at this point, she's pretty much going to have to do something extreme. To speak in their terms and language via the particular subset of a dialect, as it were. It is something a machismo-infused male would understand.
The "Nuke the thieving fuckers" thing is pure metaphor. Said metaphorical usage of The Gadget or Physics Package could be as simple as getting on her landlord's ass, or as confrontational as getting in their face and making them understand in no uncertain terms you've got the insanity and heuvos to deal with them, and that you're not intimidated by them.
That you yourself are unable to divorce the concept of an entire race from the concept of pointing out particular subsets or individuals a culture of pervasive or permissive violence and disrespect towards women is what bothers me the most.
At no point did anyone say anything remotely like "OMG all Latino men/people are teh evil!!!", but here you are sanctimoniously insisting over and over that we did.
I'm done.
posted by loquacious at 7:03 PM on June 6, 2006
At no point did anyone say anything remotely like "OMG all Latino men/people are teh evil!!!", but here you are sanctimoniously insisting over and over that we did.
I'm done.
I stopped laughing about two posts back, so yeah I'm done here as well.
posted by Ryvar at 7:08 PM on June 6, 2006
I'm done.
I stopped laughing about two posts back, so yeah I'm done here as well.
posted by Ryvar at 7:08 PM on June 6, 2006
You miss the point entirely - in your reply to me you passed judgement without even knowing what my situation was
No, you did. We were talking at cross purposes. I think that's been made clear.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 7:08 PM on June 6, 2006
No, you did. We were talking at cross purposes. I think that's been made clear.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 7:08 PM on June 6, 2006
I'm not sure how to respond to your post, loq -- to be honest, I don't even understand it, but I think it's made your feelings about Mexicans a lot clearer.
Lucky amy's neighbours aren't Mexican, huh?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 7:12 PM on June 6, 2006
Lucky amy's neighbours aren't Mexican, huh?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 7:12 PM on June 6, 2006
I don't even understand it, but I think it's made your feelings about Mexicans a lot clearer.
So, you don't understand it, but it's made his views a lot clearer. Indeed.
posted by atrazine at 7:24 PM on June 6, 2006
So, you don't understand it, but it's made his views a lot clearer. Indeed.
posted by atrazine at 7:24 PM on June 6, 2006
Ambrose -
Out of curiosity, how much time have you spent in the states?
(oh and darainwa is correct btw)
posted by radioamy at 7:31 PM on June 6, 2006
Out of curiosity, how much time have you spent in the states?
(oh and darainwa is correct btw)
posted by radioamy at 7:31 PM on June 6, 2006
Sadly, this comment makes more sense than about half the comments in this thread.
You don't know me, you don't care about my situation, you have no experience with the phenomenon being discussed here, and yet you feel free to pass judgement on me. Is there a really long German word for this? I feel like there should be.
Unbekanntenzustandsunerfahrenheitsvorurteil, perhaps?
posted by oaf at 7:37 PM on June 6, 2006
You don't know me, you don't care about my situation, you have no experience with the phenomenon being discussed here, and yet you feel free to pass judgement on me. Is there a really long German word for this? I feel like there should be.
Unbekanntenzustandsunerfahrenheitsvorurteil, perhaps?
posted by oaf at 7:37 PM on June 6, 2006
"But being Latino has nothing to do with their stealing. Nor does it have anything to do with their propensity to steal your power."
It does have to do with how to resolve the problem, noting that often differing cultures have different expectations of how conflicts will be handled.
BUT NOES EVERYONE IS RACIST AND YOUR EFFORTS HAVE STOPPED THE HATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by klangklangston at 8:00 PM on June 6, 2006
It does have to do with how to resolve the problem, noting that often differing cultures have different expectations of how conflicts will be handled.
BUT NOES EVERYONE IS RACIST AND YOUR EFFORTS HAVE STOPPED THE HATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by klangklangston at 8:00 PM on June 6, 2006
I'm not sure how to respond to your post, loq -- to be honest, I don't even understand it, but I think it's made your feelings about Mexicans a lot clearer.
This part is really the only thing you should trouble yourself with:
At no point did anyone say anything remotely like "OMG all Latino men/people are teh evil!!!", but here you are sanctimoniously insisting over and over that we did.
As an aside, I've conceded plenty of arguments right here in MeTa and elsewhere in the real world. I happily eat crow when it's time - it's how one learns.
posted by loquacious at 8:16 PM on June 6, 2006
This part is really the only thing you should trouble yourself with:
At no point did anyone say anything remotely like "OMG all Latino men/people are teh evil!!!", but here you are sanctimoniously insisting over and over that we did.
As an aside, I've conceded plenty of arguments right here in MeTa and elsewhere in the real world. I happily eat crow when it's time - it's how one learns.
posted by loquacious at 8:16 PM on June 6, 2006
Loq, you don't have to keep defending your position. There are plenty of people here (like myself) who think your comment was spot-on. When you live, work and play with other cultures you gain a certain comfort level in your dealings with them, and you're able to drop a lot of the PC-baggage and just deal with the realities without all the tip-toeing-around-your-culture bullshit. In my experience, it's always the people who have lived their lives in a homogenous, safe, middle-class box that are the ones decrying "you're a racist with your racist thoughts and your racist words." Puh-fucking-lease.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 8:24 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 8:24 PM on June 6, 2006
I would love amy to post something that made me change my mind.
I think this is where it became a derail. Changing your mind is irrelevant to answering the question. More generally, questions about aspects of the question you believe to be irrelevant to answering the question are themselves irrelevant to answering the question.
posted by scottreynen at 8:36 PM on June 6, 2006
I think this is where it became a derail. Changing your mind is irrelevant to answering the question. More generally, questions about aspects of the question you believe to be irrelevant to answering the question are themselves irrelevant to answering the question.
posted by scottreynen at 8:36 PM on June 6, 2006
That's not what I said, ever. I've been mentioning people's race in a number of examples and I've simply been asking, over and over and over again, for a reason why race is relevant here.
no, it's not what you said. it's what's implied by what you said. there does not need to be a justification of someone mentioning a race... ever. there are either cases of racism that don't depend on mentioning the race at all, or cases where it's not racism and whether the race is mentioned doesn't matter.
that you saw a possibility for amy to have some prejudicial perception of the events at her home was clear, and you brought it up. Other people up thread have already mentioned how reasonable this was. Then, your question was adequately, reasonably and politely responded to. That you have insisted on seeing this as an issue of racism beyond that point is why it looks more and more like forced outrage.
more simply: your question of why the word latin was used in the post has been answered, and the answer doesn't indicate racism. your actions since then seem more than a little self-righteous and uncalled for.
posted by shmegegge at 8:46 PM on June 6, 2006
no, it's not what you said. it's what's implied by what you said. there does not need to be a justification of someone mentioning a race... ever. there are either cases of racism that don't depend on mentioning the race at all, or cases where it's not racism and whether the race is mentioned doesn't matter.
that you saw a possibility for amy to have some prejudicial perception of the events at her home was clear, and you brought it up. Other people up thread have already mentioned how reasonable this was. Then, your question was adequately, reasonably and politely responded to. That you have insisted on seeing this as an issue of racism beyond that point is why it looks more and more like forced outrage.
more simply: your question of why the word latin was used in the post has been answered, and the answer doesn't indicate racism. your actions since then seem more than a little self-righteous and uncalled for.
posted by shmegegge at 8:46 PM on June 6, 2006
I wholeheartedly agree with loquacious that all latino men should be assumed to be male chauvinists until proven otherwise. And have you noticed that most jews really like money (not all of them, of course, and some of my best friends are jews, you know)? Man that pisses me off.
posted by signal at 8:58 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by signal at 8:58 PM on June 6, 2006
This is not at all to say that all jews are thus, but it is a pervasive cultural value.
posted by signal at 8:59 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by signal at 8:59 PM on June 6, 2006
Let's go get us some carnitas and drink some Pacifico
Man, I miss Pacifico.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:01 PM on June 6, 2006
Man, I miss Pacifico.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:01 PM on June 6, 2006
You know how Pacifico is like sex in a canoe? Fucking close to water.
posted by exogenous at 9:07 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by exogenous at 9:07 PM on June 6, 2006
Listen, I don't think she's a racist, and I very passionately don't believe that mentioning the ethnicity of a person is automatically essentializing or racist. Nor am I the fucking PC police. I don't want to shake up your worldview, nor do I care if it needs shaking up.
This is what she said:
"Up until a couple weeks ago the downstairs was empty, then some Latino workers moved in...(the inhabitants of the duplex next to us are about a trillion Latino workers"
If she said "black" instead of Latino, which would have been the same damned thing (and please, please don't tell me that there aren't significant cultural differences, including those involving conflict resolution, between white and black Americans living in New Orleans), you'd better fucking believe that people would have made follow-up inquiries. As well they should.
Having said all that, I wouldn't have started this fight, and am not too happy to have participated in it. I also sympathize with the AskMe fundamentalists (by that I mean the "nothing off topic ever" folks) who I believe are here to fight another battle.
BUT NOES EVERYONE IS RACIST AND YOUR EFFORTS HAVE STOPPED THE HATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Man. You can be an insufferable prick sometimes.
posted by kosem at 9:07 PM on June 6, 2006
This is what she said:
"Up until a couple weeks ago the downstairs was empty, then some Latino workers moved in...(the inhabitants of the duplex next to us are about a trillion Latino workers"
If she said "black" instead of Latino, which would have been the same damned thing (and please, please don't tell me that there aren't significant cultural differences, including those involving conflict resolution, between white and black Americans living in New Orleans), you'd better fucking believe that people would have made follow-up inquiries. As well they should.
Having said all that, I wouldn't have started this fight, and am not too happy to have participated in it. I also sympathize with the AskMe fundamentalists (by that I mean the "nothing off topic ever" folks) who I believe are here to fight another battle.
BUT NOES EVERYONE IS RACIST AND YOUR EFFORTS HAVE STOPPED THE HATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Man. You can be an insufferable prick sometimes.
posted by kosem at 9:07 PM on June 6, 2006
Sorry for the insult. Should have held my tongue. Still not crazy about your blithe dismissal, but I don't like slinging metamud.
posted by kosem at 9:19 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by kosem at 9:19 PM on June 6, 2006
You know how Pacifico is like sex in a canoe? Fucking close to water.
Don't teach your grandpa how tofuck suck drink in a canoe eggs beer.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:25 PM on June 6, 2006
Don't teach your grandpa how to
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:25 PM on June 6, 2006
Can we all just focus on hating caddis?
posted by mediareport at 9:37 PM on June 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by mediareport at 9:37 PM on June 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
"Neigbors stealing your water and power, squattin' on your stoop, and otherwise living 8 to a bedroom, and the cops and landlord don't care? You probably live in the ghetto."
Don't discount that instead you may be a redneck, especially if those 8 in the bedroom are cousins.
My neighbors are meth-heads (I think). Should I call the DEA?
(There I got it in the right thread this time.)
"If she said "black" instead of Latino" = strawman
posted by mischief at 9:38 PM on June 6, 2006
Don't discount that instead you may be a redneck, especially if those 8 in the bedroom are cousins.
My neighbors are meth-heads (I think). Should I call the DEA?
(There I got it in the right thread this time.)
"If she said "black" instead of Latino" = strawman
posted by mischief at 9:38 PM on June 6, 2006
mischief: if they're cooking it, yeah. Probably.
caddis gave me the clap. He also punches hippies and makes babies cry. I once saw him kick a three-legged dog. He pissed in my best shoes and then threw up in my socks drawer. He also has a complete collection of Shadowfax CDs. I hate caddis, I really do.
posted by loquacious at 9:43 PM on June 6, 2006
caddis gave me the clap. He also punches hippies and makes babies cry. I once saw him kick a three-legged dog. He pissed in my best shoes and then threw up in my socks drawer. He also has a complete collection of Shadowfax CDs. I hate caddis, I really do.
posted by loquacious at 9:43 PM on June 6, 2006
Would it be inappropriate to read this thread while sipping a pleasant margarita?
posted by Mr. Six at 11:19 PM on June 6, 2006
posted by Mr. Six at 11:19 PM on June 6, 2006
it's always the people who have lived their lives in a homogenous, safe, middle-class box
Clearly this is me. With my Palestinian Tongan Chinese Hindu neighbours. You got me there. Well spotted. Where I live is about a homogenous as ... a very non-homogenous thing. As is my family.
your question was adequately, reasonably and politely responded to
Please tell me where this happened. You mean the bit where people made generalisations about Latin people not respecting women, property, personal space, or even cleaning up their garbage and said "...so that's why race is a factor"? Or the bit where people posted about how violent and "street" this situation was and how a baseball bat was going to get through to them much better than a polite conversation?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 12:45 AM on June 7, 2006
Clearly this is me. With my Palestinian Tongan Chinese Hindu neighbours. You got me there. Well spotted. Where I live is about a homogenous as ... a very non-homogenous thing. As is my family.
your question was adequately, reasonably and politely responded to
Please tell me where this happened. You mean the bit where people made generalisations about Latin people not respecting women, property, personal space, or even cleaning up their garbage and said "...so that's why race is a factor"? Or the bit where people posted about how violent and "street" this situation was and how a baseball bat was going to get through to them much better than a polite conversation?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 12:45 AM on June 7, 2006
Gah. Y'know, I really shouldn't rise to the bait, but...
Ambrose, just shut the fuck up. I just spent the better part of 6 hours talking late into the night to a Latino of Mexican descent (Via Tejano/Sonora) about this whole pile of bullshit and uncommonly strong culturally approved or integrated chauvanism 'cause I was honestly question whether or not my statements were racist or not.
He said I was right. Emphatically.
The fact that I would spend such time introspecting and outright asking and having an open discussion with someone who happens to be of the "race" in question would suggest otherwise.
Furthermore, I'm not sure how you missed it, but...
My statements about suggesting that radioamy - not myself - should use confrontation, the threat of violence, or violence itself were to send the very clear and strong message that she wasn't going to sit there and take it and be a good, passive little girl - and that this sort of direct, strong confrontation would be the only message that they would understand and react to - especially because she had already spent so much time having her boundaries pushed back and violated already.
Is there something seriously fucking wrong with your reading comprehension skills? What's the deal, here? I don't actually advocate violence. I emphatically suggested diplomacy first.
But sometimes, sometimes there's only one language to be spoken.
posted by loquacious at 3:54 AM on June 7, 2006
Ambrose, just shut the fuck up. I just spent the better part of 6 hours talking late into the night to a Latino of Mexican descent (Via Tejano/Sonora) about this whole pile of bullshit and uncommonly strong culturally approved or integrated chauvanism 'cause I was honestly question whether or not my statements were racist or not.
He said I was right. Emphatically.
The fact that I would spend such time introspecting and outright asking and having an open discussion with someone who happens to be of the "race" in question would suggest otherwise.
Furthermore, I'm not sure how you missed it, but...
My statements about suggesting that radioamy - not myself - should use confrontation, the threat of violence, or violence itself were to send the very clear and strong message that she wasn't going to sit there and take it and be a good, passive little girl - and that this sort of direct, strong confrontation would be the only message that they would understand and react to - especially because she had already spent so much time having her boundaries pushed back and violated already.
Is there something seriously fucking wrong with your reading comprehension skills? What's the deal, here? I don't actually advocate violence. I emphatically suggested diplomacy first.
But sometimes, sometimes there's only one language to be spoken.
posted by loquacious at 3:54 AM on June 7, 2006
Clearly the solution is for amy's pater familias to visit with the neighbours' pater familias. They will be able to come to an amicable resolution to the situation, possibly including a marriage of amy to a suitable member of the neighbours' family for political and financial advancement.
If this does not work, perhaps amy can go next door with a baseball bat and ruin their penis gourds.
posted by Captaintripps at 4:56 AM on June 7, 2006
If this does not work, perhaps amy can go next door with a baseball bat and ruin their penis gourds.
posted by Captaintripps at 4:56 AM on June 7, 2006
Nothing was wrong with radioamy's question.
That is all.
posted by exlotuseater at 5:02 AM on June 7, 2006
That is all.
posted by exlotuseater at 5:02 AM on June 7, 2006
Can we all just focus on hating caddis?
Not to condone caddis' unfortunateness, but I'd prefer trolling Mean Mr. Bucket at the moment. When does he answer for his lie(s)?
posted by dorisfromregopark at 5:25 AM on June 7, 2006
Not to condone caddis' unfortunateness, but I'd prefer trolling Mean Mr. Bucket at the moment. When does he answer for his lie(s)?
posted by dorisfromregopark at 5:25 AM on June 7, 2006
Does anyone ever concede an argument on here?
未解決
That made me laugh.
Also, I don't know Pacifico, but Dixie sucks. Sorry, proud denizens of N'Awlinz.
And guys, haven't we insulted each other long enough? Can't we have some of that fine, sticky group sex?
posted by languagehat at 6:11 AM on June 7, 2006
未解決
That made me laugh.
Also, I don't know Pacifico, but Dixie sucks. Sorry, proud denizens of N'Awlinz.
And guys, haven't we insulted each other long enough? Can't we have some of that fine, sticky group sex?
posted by languagehat at 6:11 AM on June 7, 2006
Anyone ever been to an orgy?
*pees in Mean Mr. Bucket*
posted by mediareport at 6:25 AM on June 7, 2006
*pees in Mean Mr. Bucket*
posted by mediareport at 6:25 AM on June 7, 2006
"If she said "black" instead of Latino, which would have been the same damned thing (and please, please don't tell me that there aren't significant cultural differences, including those involving conflict resolution, between white and black Americans living in New Orleans), you'd better fucking believe that people would have made follow-up inquiries. As well they should."
And when they got the simple answer that she's noting it because she thinks that there might be cultural differences, which there are, people should shut the fuck up about it. The question was asked, answered, and then STOOD ON AND ORATED UPON FOR THE BENEFIT OF AMBROSE PROVING THAT HE'S MOTHERFUCKING ENLIGHTENED.
And having Chinese neighbors is not the same thing as having black neighbors, or Latino neighbors, which Ambrose would know if he didn't consider all minorities interchangable. Wait, I'm distorting his position to prove a point? Why, where ever would I have gotten that? This wouldn't be an ironic aside, would it?
Having both Chinese immigrant and black neighbors, the method of resolving conflicts is wildly different when dealing with the young men who have had complaints generated regarding their behavior. Once you get to the "What do I do?" phase, CULTURE IS IMPORTANT.
posted by klangklangston at 6:44 AM on June 7, 2006
And when they got the simple answer that she's noting it because she thinks that there might be cultural differences, which there are, people should shut the fuck up about it. The question was asked, answered, and then STOOD ON AND ORATED UPON FOR THE BENEFIT OF AMBROSE PROVING THAT HE'S MOTHERFUCKING ENLIGHTENED.
And having Chinese neighbors is not the same thing as having black neighbors, or Latino neighbors, which Ambrose would know if he didn't consider all minorities interchangable. Wait, I'm distorting his position to prove a point? Why, where ever would I have gotten that? This wouldn't be an ironic aside, would it?
Having both Chinese immigrant and black neighbors, the method of resolving conflicts is wildly different when dealing with the young men who have had complaints generated regarding their behavior. Once you get to the "What do I do?" phase, CULTURE IS IMPORTANT.
posted by klangklangston at 6:44 AM on June 7, 2006
perhaps, ambrose, you need to meet a few real racists. complaining about your hindu neighbors stinking up the hallway with curry, or the latinos hanging out on the front stoop drinking and harassing, is complaining about the behavior of the ethnics, not the people themselves. most answers actually deal with how to handle the problem while figuring race as an issue.
now some of the removed posts that start talking about removing all latinos because of this would be considered racist. saying 'all latinos do this' would also be racist. they don't all do this, and it's not always bad. in fact, i have been in situations where i actually welcomed my latino neighbors to hang out--but they were a lot more respectful then radioamy's neighbors.
stereotypes sometimes are right--and this is one of those cases. radioamy wasn't ranting about them: she just wanted to deal with them in an efficent way, and identifying them as latinos was an important point.
so i suppose your advice to her was to politely tell them to not steal her electricity. perhaps in your experience, this is the best solution. however, we at the metafilter collective know better: we have experienced similar situations, and therefore offered advice.
if it were you in this situation, who's advice would you rather follow? someone who assumes you are racist for citing facts, or someone who attacks your perceptions and offers a solution that shows no understanding of the situation?
posted by lester at 8:16 AM on June 7, 2006
now some of the removed posts that start talking about removing all latinos because of this would be considered racist. saying 'all latinos do this' would also be racist. they don't all do this, and it's not always bad. in fact, i have been in situations where i actually welcomed my latino neighbors to hang out--but they were a lot more respectful then radioamy's neighbors.
stereotypes sometimes are right--and this is one of those cases. radioamy wasn't ranting about them: she just wanted to deal with them in an efficent way, and identifying them as latinos was an important point.
so i suppose your advice to her was to politely tell them to not steal her electricity. perhaps in your experience, this is the best solution. however, we at the metafilter collective know better: we have experienced similar situations, and therefore offered advice.
if it were you in this situation, who's advice would you rather follow? someone who assumes you are racist for citing facts, or someone who attacks your perceptions and offers a solution that shows no understanding of the situation?
posted by lester at 8:16 AM on June 7, 2006
A day late, but I wanted to apologize for my own unintentional derail of the AskMeta thread. I had read the background link that had been provided and in combination with the current question, I let my own thoughts wander when they should not have. My thanks for removing them!
posted by Atreides at 9:07 AM on June 7, 2006
posted by Atreides at 9:07 AM on June 7, 2006
You're all Racist, especially AmbroseChapel. Everyone from Australia is a Racist.
posted by Paris Hilton at 2:51 PM on June 7, 2006
posted by Paris Hilton at 2:51 PM on June 7, 2006
Is there something seriously fucking wrong with your reading comprehension skills? What's the deal, here? I don't actually advocate violence. I emphatically suggested diplomacy first.
You specifically said she should smash their cars with a baseball bat. How is that not 'violent'?
posted by Paris Hilton at 2:53 PM on June 7, 2006
You specifically said she should smash their cars with a baseball bat. How is that not 'violent'?
posted by Paris Hilton at 2:53 PM on June 7, 2006
Latinos like baseball. It's a cultural thing.
posted by klangklangston at 3:01 PM on June 7, 2006
posted by klangklangston at 3:01 PM on June 7, 2006
"I'd prefer trolling Mean Mr. Bucket at the moment. When does he answer for his lie(s)?"
As soon as someone bets his hand against them.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:22 PM on June 7, 2006
As soon as someone bets his hand against them.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:22 PM on June 7, 2006
This whole deal is kinda amazing, to me. I mean, I grew up in the South, and the whole referring to someone by their racial appearance is kinda like referring to someone according to what clothes they're wearing. There's no slur implied, and I didn't get that from her post. If she had called them wetbacks, now, that would have been a different thing.
I sure hope she gets out of there soon...I mean, they're probably all decent family people, but no good ever comes of having a shitty landlord.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 7:20 PM on June 7, 2006
I sure hope she gets out of there soon...I mean, they're probably all decent family people, but no good ever comes of having a shitty landlord.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 7:20 PM on June 7, 2006
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posted by Mr. Six at 6:05 AM on June 6, 2006