Racist trolling November 9, 2006 9:16 PM   Subscribe

Apparently, young black men "aren't people," are inherently violent, and their HIV rates (not to mention their penis measurements) are highly exaggerated. Why does he keep coming back for metafilter badness?
posted by anotherpanacea to Etiquette/Policy at 9:16 PM (158 comments total) 1 user marked this as a favorite

Sorry, apparently black women are inherently violent too.
posted by anotherpanacea at 9:24 PM on November 9, 2006


OK, so he's an ignorant jerk. So what?
posted by brain_drain at 9:29 PM on November 9, 2006


Meh, he's clearly an arsehole, but no worse than many others around here. At least he's literate.
posted by dg at 9:37 PM on November 9, 2006


Wow. Milliken sure pissed in your Cheerios there, anotherpanacea.

On reading the quotes linked... I just don't see the sort of racism you seem to be accusing him of. He was contrarian to be sure, which obviously has irritated you, but IMO he didn't seem to step across any lines.

Weak callout.
posted by John Smallberries at 9:39 PM on November 9, 2006


Now that the campaign and his career are over, George "Macaca" Allen needs something to do, and I for one welcome him!
posted by orthogonality at 9:50 PM on November 9, 2006 [1 favorite]


I am frequently irritated by contributors here... if I didn't want to be irritated, I wouldn't read the threads. But there's an obvious racist trend in his comments, and they're is not simply contrarian. This set of claims about African Americans are usually found on white supremacist sites like this one, which specialize in making racism look edgy and counter-cultural.
posted by anotherpanacea at 9:53 PM on November 9, 2006


I'm not really sure what you want to achieve by the call out, but I agree with you completely about the comments in 56184.
posted by owhydididoit at 9:58 PM on November 9, 2006


I was sort of on anotherpanacea's side until he started linking to white supremacist sites. Where did that come from?

Seeing that you were debating that guy in that thread, I think you are posting here in a heated state. Walk away from the keyboard. Come back and post later. The guy is just an ignorant jerk.
posted by vacapinta at 10:03 PM on November 9, 2006


anotherpanacea, dude, DON'T link to freaking stormfront. Jesus, dude. Just because you disagree with someone on mefi that might be a bit of an ass doesn't mean you can link them to crazy white power sites.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:13 PM on November 9, 2006


I've really resisted doing this with of all my being since I've been a member, but....

Metafilter: I am frequently irritated by contributors here
posted by marxchivist at 10:20 PM on November 9, 2006


Metafilter: Come for the racism, stay for the pancakes (now with special syrup)
posted by blue_beetle at 10:20 PM on November 9, 2006


"I think he's a racist. And you know who else was a racist? Hitler."
posted by I Am Not a Lobster at 10:21 PM on November 9, 2006


The guy is just an ignorant jerk...

...who happens to use the rhetoric and arguments advanced almost exclusively among white supremacists. We've censured users who engaged in Holocaust denial, after all.
posted by anotherpanacea at 10:21 PM on November 9, 2006


LET'S LYNCH 'IM!

wait.. whut?
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 11:09 PM on November 9, 2006


It's called race baiting, also known as trolling, do not fall for the bait. The response will always be akin to "come and see the violence inherent in the system!" The race baiter always gets to paint the first one to get pissed as "pedantic" while he portrays the calm "rational" one.

When you don't come at them with your teeth bared then folks can more easily see them for the loony assholes they really are.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:18 PM on November 9, 2006


Yeah, he's way out of control and this reads like standard racist boilerplate. I was shocked to see he'd been a silent member for so long only to emerge here. My gut tells me that someone is 'borrowing' the account to spew this bullshit.
posted by allen.spaulding at 11:36 PM on November 9, 2006


Well, whoever it is, he's pretty much a skinhead. Stretching to allow fair play for free speech is fine, but bending over backwards to not see racism that's clearly there is something else.
posted by furiousthought at 12:10 AM on November 10, 2006


Dang. My first FPP. I didn't get the response I was looking for out of this. I think I'll go with something a little less racial and a little more ceilingcatesque for next time.

Maybe Milliken is a racist, but I don't think he's over the line in the thread. All this business about the victims having been "sexily dressed" is a pretty clearly sexist assumption -- should we call that out while we're at it?

By the way, there's a Milliken High School in Long Beach. Maybe, like me, Milliken has Beach rage.
posted by Methylviolet at 12:45 AM on November 10, 2006


I agree that Milliken sounds like a racist asshole (I stopped reading that hate crime thread early on, it got boring, and missed Milliken's absolutely astounding comment. Fear for their lives? Awesome). So what? We have lots of assholes on here, period.

Also, to save someone the hassle...
Metafilter: We have lots of assholes on here, period.
posted by antifuse at 1:49 AM on November 10, 2006


I admire his restraint -- unless it's been deleted, he's never used the word "nigger", not even once
posted by matteo at 2:13 AM on November 10, 2006


Oh my God! He said the 'n' word!
posted by loquacious at 2:47 AM on November 10, 2006


Why does he keep coming back for metafilter badness?

Because he knows he can push buttons and clearly enjoys doing so.

anotherpanacea, you sound whiny here.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:51 AM on November 10, 2006


and yes, I'm amused that YOU linked to a hate site, not him.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:51 AM on November 10, 2006


i admit to "baiting", but only as a means to an end:

for what purpose do I, a vocally silent member of metafilter, come out with such great vigor against what I see as the evils of blind tolerance?

all articles linked to here are fodder for the flame war that (depending on the content) is likely to ensue. granted, metafilter is not fark - by no means should I or anybody else look to ensnare others into meaningles and entrenched warfare.

with that said, I have found that the types of responses garnered for articles such as this truly are pedantic and without reasoning beyond that which our tiny brains have been programmed with.

the fact is, i have never visited a supremacist website, and frankly, i don't plan on visiting one in the future. white supremacists are, to me, in the same vein as mecha and the black panthers, with one huge difference:

hate groups have been given affirmative status by statistician socialists, a group whos foundation goals are driven by an idealistic and utopian desire to create an equal footing for all peoples and races - understandable to a point, to be sure, but the willingness to sweep under the rug a historical and harsh reality will only ensure the enslavement of reasoning and accountability for future generations..

i get upset when i see comments and logical modalities that are inherently racist ("poor whites") used as blind attacks (and excuses) in ways that, while not stated directly, further give providence to, and remove culpability from those who commit crime and/or have severe bias of their own.

baiting is essentially a way to "call out" those whos view of reality has been shifted in such a way that they almost need to be sucker punched and pissed off before they will even *begin* to see that their lines of reasoning only further future racism and bigotry.

i am not a racist. in fact, i am one of the most accepting people you will ever meet. i feel free to use baiting and other methods to call you people out for what you are, because i KNOW that i haven't a racist bone in my body.

the plight of blacks in this country is an appauling affair. liberal activism has now, for 20+ years, been subjigated by a dark force - and you have been enlisted as it's army of retards who continue to tow the party line of equality without accountability.

it wont ever work.

so, if the moderators wish to suspend my account or terminate me completely, by all means - you will have shown your true colors.

inversely, if the moderators see fit to allow me to keep my account, then i will, in the future, try not to take personal insults to heart, and i will temper my reactions.

i know there are people on this site who (at least in part) agree in spirit with what i am trying to say.

to you: stand up. don't be worried about these people who would be so quick to judge you and be thought police. stand up for what you believe in. just be sure that what you believe in is not based on emotive response or logical fallacy.

oh, and try not to make any typos - they'll get you for that.
posted by Milliken at 3:02 AM on November 10, 2006


Oh holy crap! BOLOGNA UNDERPANTS.
posted by loquacious at 3:10 AM on November 10, 2006


"oh, and try not to make any typos - they'll get you for that."
posted by Milliken at 9:02 PM AEST on November 10

Damn straight we will! May I point you to the Metafilter Contract of Capitalization Usage?
posted by Effigy2000 at 3:15 AM on November 10, 2006


dg: "At least he's literate."

Milliken:
"appauling" ... "subjigated" ... "tow the party line"
posted by AmbroseChapel at 3:17 AM on November 10, 2006


Milliken writes:. "...equality without accountability"

OK, from now on, all Black people will be accountable to milliken. You are on notice. Oh, and Asians, you too.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:18 AM on November 10, 2006


Awesome!

"I'm not racist, so I can say racist things! And if you ban me, well, you're showing your true colours."

Awesome!
posted by antifuse at 3:26 AM on November 10, 2006


AS IN CRAZY AS.
posted by loquacious at 3:29 AM on November 10, 2006


Milliken,

You make some excellent points, but your delivery is terrible. Not many will want to listen to you because you keep coming off as, well, an arrogant asshole troll. Perhaps a different tack might be in order?

Just a suggestion.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:31 AM on November 10, 2006


Sorry, that was grammatically incorrect as all fucktarts, let's try that again. From the top. Coming out of the record. Just play the record.

CRAZY AS BOLOGNA UNDERPANTS.
posted by loquacious at 3:31 AM on November 10, 2006


Somewhere a village is missing it's hot dog specialist technician, 4th class. The mustard is displeased and winsome.
posted by loquacious at 3:37 AM on November 10, 2006


Next election, I'm voting the Socialist Statistician ticket.


Also:

Metafilter: you have been enlisted as it's army of retards



posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:41 AM on November 10, 2006


geez, he types in all lower case.
posted by quonsar at 4:05 AM on November 10, 2006


I don't know about the race thing, but milliken is surely an idiot. What he doesn't know about HIV and AIDS is enough to obviate all his (many, whacko) opinions on the subject.
posted by OmieWise at 4:19 AM on November 10, 2006 [1 favorite]


i am genious and if you say no it exposes you as retart.
posted by exlotuseater at 4:27 AM on November 10, 2006


Oh, and milliken: you continue to slag off the "liberal university campus mindset", and yet you can't spell very well. Perhaps you should consider going back to school? Or are there too many scary blacks there? I'm not saying that spelling is directly related to intelligence, but given your case, I'm beginning to wonder if there's not a correlation.
posted by exlotuseater at 4:37 AM on November 10, 2006


I have it on good authority that Milliken is actually a self-hating fat black jewish gay man. with a fake eye.
posted by naxosaxur at 5:02 AM on November 10, 2006


Bettering the world through baiting. Nice.
posted by peacay at 5:07 AM on November 10, 2006


If it's socially acceptable to laugh at Borat, probably the most racist movie to hit the American mainstream since Birth of a Nation, then nothing this guy has said should be cause for concern.

I'm all for calling out racists; I'd just like to see some consistency.
posted by Clay201 at 5:09 AM on November 10, 2006


anotherpanacea, dude, DON'T link to freaking stormfront. Jesus, dude. Just because you disagree with someone on mefi that might be a bit of an ass doesn't mean you can link them to crazy white power sites.

Did you even read his other comments in the thread? It's like he's straight out of the edgy, I'm-just-a-straight-shooter-talking-honest-about-race playbook. And you're concerned that someone linked (quite obviously) to a white supremacist site to make a point about what the person is doing?

Misplaced disapproval for the loss.
posted by The God Complex at 5:20 AM on November 10, 2006


Anyone who talks about "the plight of blacks in this country" is at least a little bit racist. But no more than your average American, I guess.
posted by sfenders at 5:20 AM on November 10, 2006


Milliken,

For all your self-styled straight shooting, you're really not much more than an intellectual lightweight. I hestitate even to call you a dilettante, because, quite comically, you don't even have the command of your subject matter to pass as someone who knows what it is that they're talking about.

If what you said wasn't so downright ignorant, your inability to express yourself coherently, rambling non sequiturs, and adamant claims that you're only baiting to "make a point" would be downright hysterical.

I mean, it's still a bit funny. You spend all this time railing against university culture, when 90% of the people I've ever met like you are university washouts. Usually they're wannabe intellectuals who think they see the truth of the world where nobody else can (the first sign of an intellectual blackhole if ever there was one) and love to write logically unsound "rants", like some backwater low-rent Dennis Miller.

i know there are people on this site who (at least in part) agree in spirit with what i am trying to say.

to you: stand up. don't be worried about these people who would be so quick to judge you and be thought police. stand up for what you believe in. just be sure that what you believe in is not based on emotive response or logical fallacy.

oh, and try not to make any typos - they'll get you for that.


Yeah, dude, you're a real martyr.
posted by The God Complex at 5:32 AM on November 10, 2006 [1 favorite]


Shorter Miliken:

"I'm not racist, but blacks are inferior."
posted by empath at 5:34 AM on November 10, 2006


It's all the "you people" this and "you people" that that gets me hot.
posted by mediareport at 5:38 AM on November 10, 2006


subjigated by a dark force

Ouch. Assuming it's deliberate, that's beyond the pale. :-s
posted by bifter at 5:43 AM on November 10, 2006


baiting is essentially a way to "call out" those whos view of reality has been shifted in such a way that they almost need to be sucker punched and pissed off before they will even *begin* to see that their lines of reasoning only further future racism and bigotry

Does this tactic ever work?
posted by Robert Angelo at 5:48 AM on November 10, 2006


*sucker punches Robert Angelo*

Sure it does. See?
posted by mediareport at 5:52 AM on November 10, 2006


words
posted by Milliken at 3:02 AM PST on November 10


Shoot yourself in the head, you miserable piece of shit.

You're not smart. You're not telling us anything we haven't heard a million times before and dismissed as boring fucking twaddle. You wouldn't last ten seconds in an actual discussion, so you spout vague little bullshit factoids about liberal academia and little else.

You are a racist. Here's my emotive response: fuck you.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:55 AM on November 10, 2006 [1 favorite]


*sucker punches Robert Angelo*

Sure it does. See?


Oh honey, it's too early in the morning for me to even have a line of reasoning to change...
posted by Robert Angelo at 5:59 AM on November 10, 2006


i admit to "baiting", but only as a means to an end:

That end being racism.

for what purpose do I, a vocally silent member of metafilter, come out with such great vigor against what I see as the evils of blind tolerance?

Vocally silent! Awesome. The rest of us are mumbling as we type words into this internet website.

all articles linked to here are fodder for the flame war that (depending on the content) is likely to ensue.

You mean it hasn't started yet?

granted, metafilter is not fark

Who says?

- by no means should I or anybody else look to ensnare others into meaningles and entrenched warfare.

You already admitted to "baiting" in the first line now, you're saying neither you nor anyone else should be baiting?

with that said, I have found that the types of responses garnered for articles such as this truly are pedantic and without reasoning beyond that which our tiny brains have been programmed with.

"Our?"

the fact is, i have never visited a supremacist website, and frankly, i don't plan on visiting one in the future. white supremacists are, to me, in the same vein as mecha and the black panthers, with one huge difference:

The Veritech VF-1 Valkyrie resents this statement.

hate groups have been given affirmative status by statistician socialists, a group whos foundation goals are driven by an idealistic and utopian desire to create an equal footing for all peoples and races - understandable to a point, to be sure, but the willingness to sweep under the rug a historical and harsh reality will only ensure the enslavement of reasoning and accountability for future generations..

Name them.

i get upset when i see comments and logical modalities that are inherently racist ("poor whites") used as blind attacks (and excuses) in ways that, while not stated directly, further give providence to, and remove culpability from those who commit crime and/or have severe bias of their own.

You must get upset reading your own posting history, then.

baiting is essentially a way to "call out" those whos view of reality has been shifted in such a way that they almost need to be sucker punched and pissed off before they will even *begin* to see that their lines of reasoning only further future racism and bigotry.

Wow! Projection in action!

i am not a racist. in fact, i am one of the most accepting people you will ever meet. i feel free to use baiting and other methods to call you people out for what you are, because i KNOW that i haven't a racist bone in my body.

So then, what are your thoughts on the peaceful commingling of blacks, Asians, Mexicans, and whites in urban areas?

the plight of blacks in this country is an appauling affair. liberal activism has now, for 20+ years, been subjigated by a dark force - and you have been enlisted as it's army of retards who continue to tow the party line of equality without accountability.

"Dark force" AND "army of retards," we're going for the win with two broad brushes in one sentence!

it wont ever work.

Yeah, we know. What gave you the notion everyone here wants to let minorities off the hook?

so, if the moderators wish to suspend my account or terminate me completely, by all means - you will have shown your true colors.

Black.

inversely, if the moderators see fit to allow me to keep my account, then i will, in the future, try not to take personal insults to heart, and i will temper my reactions.

Because if you get banned and decide not to temper your reactions, it's going to have such a huge effect on us.

i know there are people on this site who (at least in part) agree in spirit with what i am trying to say.

Fight the power!

to you: stand up. don't be worried about these people who would be so quick to judge you and be thought police. stand up for what you believe in. just be sure that what you believe in is not based on emotive response or logical fallacy.

Oops, too late on the "logical fallacy" part.

oh, and try not to make any typos - they'll get you for that.

Apostrophe misuse, too.
posted by brownpau at 6:04 AM on November 10, 2006

white supremacists are, to me, in the same vein as mecha and the black panthers1
Wait, MeCha is like white supremacists? I think I can see how they are like the black panthers: both were the subject of COINTELPRO, right? That's what you're getting at, because, other than having some members of color, these three things have little in common.

Oh, Wikipedia tells me you might have meant this mecha. What the hell do the Black Panthers, white supremacists, and "piloted or remote-controlled limbed vehicles" have in common. Wait, you're not suggesting that Huey P. Newton was a white supremacist are you? That's just weird, man.
Just because you disagree with someone on mefi that might be a bit of an ass doesn't mean you can link them to crazy white power sites.2
So, it's bad form to link to stormfront, but it's okay if their talking points are posted as comments as long as they've paid $5.00? Good luck with that cart pulling your horse, sir.

Milliken, care to defend The Bell Curve while you're at it?
posted by sequential at 6:07 AM on November 10, 2006


I admire his restraint -- unless it's been deleted, he's never used the word "nigger", not even once

Some of the most racist people I know would never dream of saying 'nigger,' and many decent but ignorant people do. That proves nothing.
posted by jonmc at 6:07 AM on November 10, 2006


idealistic and utopian desire to create an equal footing for all peoples and races -

Speak for yourself. I think the whole idea of equality is a bit of sham. Is a smart man equal to a stupid one? A strong one to a weak one?

I'd just rather the natural inequality of life wasn't based on capricious things like race.

As far as Milliken: you think he's a racist? Maybe he is, but what do you wanna do? put him in the dungeon? bury him like radioactive waste? That just lets it seep into the soil while we pretend it's not there. If he's ideas are loopy, letting them stand and shredding them does more of a service to anti-racism than any kind of banishment, which only feeds the inferiority/persecution complexes which are at the root of a lot of this stuff.
posted by jonmc at 6:13 AM on November 10, 2006


If it's socially acceptable to laugh at Borat, probably the most racist movie to hit the American mainstream since Birth of a Nation, then nothing this guy has said should be cause for concern.

I laugh at Borat AND I laugh at Milliken!
posted by languagehat at 6:15 AM on November 10, 2006


Shit, did I miss the hating again? Fuck you, left handed gay Irish janitors!
posted by Dunwitty at 6:16 AM on November 10, 2006


We only bait the ones we love.
posted by Dunwitty at 6:17 AM on November 10, 2006


Guy I work with: "It's not antisemitic to dislike the Jews if they actually are running the world from their underground gold repository Control Centers."
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:28 AM on November 10, 2006


I will fight to the death for Milliken's right to hold unpopular opinions. Yet I would ban him for not using the shift key.
posted by LarryC at 6:30 AM on November 10, 2006 [9 favorites]


If he's ideas are loopy, letting them stand and shredding them does more of a service to anti-racism than any kind of banishment, which only feeds the inferiority/persecution complexes which are at the root of a lot of this stuff.

It's a callout. It's for the community and the admins to decide whether to bury him under a mountain or just give him a week in the desert without posting rights. However, I have my doubts whether an argument for or against this kind of loopy prejudice will favor the truth so long as we're forced to use the crazy paradigm of race that Milliken wields. You can't 'shred' this kind of logic, because it's not really an argument. I challenge you to find a syllogism in any of Milliken's comments. There's just an air of superiority combined with a paradoxic victimhood: "I'm smarter than you but I can't stand the way you think you're smarter than me. Blacks aren't inferior, they're just different... in a bad way." The real purpose of race-baiting is to provoke subliminal fears and prejudices. If we're busy arguing about whether or not black people are held properly responsible for their lascivious rage, we've pretty much granted the point that black people are violent rapists.

I'm happy with the site as it is, with the flame wars focused on the American party-split, the MAC v. PC v. open source wars, the arguments about superior martial arts systems, and the prescriptivism callouts. This white nationalism/separatism nonsense isn't my idea of a good time... but it keeps me up nights worrying that this sort of discourse might become part of the mainstream again. I'd hate to think we've gone straight from 'color-blind' to 'racism-blind.'
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:33 AM on November 10, 2006


It's for the community and the admins to decide whether to bury him under a mountain or just give him a week in the desert without posting rights.

Neither. It's the internet, he can't hurt anyone for christ's sake! Ignore him, laugh at him, debate him, or love him but there's no reason to ban him just 'cause you don't like what he's saying.

You know what he is and he's adminited to baiting you and others. Why waste time on him?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:47 AM on November 10, 2006


we're forced to use the crazy paradigm of race that Milliken wields

He's typing, not point a gun.

You can't 'shred' this kind of logic, because it's not really an argument. I challenge you to find a syllogism in any of Milliken's comments. There's just an air of superiority combined with a paradoxic victimhood: "I'm smarter than you but I can't stand the way you think you're smarter than me. Blacks aren't inferior, they're just different... in a bad way."

sounds fairly easy to shred, since it's based on rather obvious linguistic legerdemain.

Look, I've just gotten to the point where I think that the semi-superstitious way many of us treat prejudice is counter productive: 'Somebody said something that may possibly be racit/sexist/homophobic! lets seal it in 50 gallon drum, and bury it in an Albertan ice field while wearing protective underwear and chanting 'hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.' There's (IMHO) better ways.

1. Prejudice, before it's actions, is thoughts. Thoughts that arise from something in humans naturally, that gets perverted either from within or without. We should work on figuring out how that process works and what we can do interdict it.

2. There is not a human being on the planet, of any race, creed, color or persuasion 100% of some kind of bigotry. So we can't really afford to be self-righteous for being better about it than say, Klansman. I'm less prejudiced than a Klansman, too. That's a bit like saying I'm a better gymnast than Stephen Hawking.

3. The'forbidden banishment' approach to bigoted speech only makes it look more enticingly 'forbidden' and 'persecuted' to the disenfranchised, bitter souls who are the dupes and foot-soldiers of racist groups. Want to make racism go away. Don't make it look like Satan, make it look like Bozo The Clown, which shouldn't be too difficult.

Again, this isn't a game plan, just a set of ideas I've had banging around in my head.
posted by jonmc at 6:51 AM on November 10, 2006 [1 favorite]


Don't make it look like Satan, make it look like Bozo The Clown

Heard and agreed! Good advice.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:58 AM on November 10, 2006


I'm not arguing for silencing all forms of white supremacy, just suggesting that we exclude it, or limit it, on metafilter. I'm glad that white supremacists talk openly and publicly about their beliefs and strategies: that way, we can know what to expect.

Brandon Blatcher... didn't you agree with this guy earlier?
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:01 AM on November 10, 2006


flapjax: I lifted that from Jim Goad (a difficult, but often perceptive guy), but I felt it appropraite.
posted by jonmc at 7:01 AM on November 10, 2006


I'm not arguing for silencing all forms of white supremacy, just suggesting that we exclude it,

this does not compute.
posted by jonmc at 7:02 AM on November 10, 2006


Black people are not inherently violent, but they do commit a disproportionate amount of the crime in the United States.

The HIV rate in blacks is much higher than the rest of the country.

In urban areas only 52% of blacks graduate high school.

Bigots and xenophobes will immediately attribute this to genetics, which should be fought against. Yet there is a social collapse in progress and the more the facts are drowned out with cries of racism, the longer it will take to fix.
posted by four panels at 7:05 AM on November 10, 2006 [1 favorite]


Borat, probably the most racist movie to hit the American mainstream since Birth of a Nation

*inhales deeply*

Ah, I love the smell of hyperbole in the morning. Seriously, in what way do you consider Borat a racist movie? Honestly curious here, because an acquaintance of mine rushed up to me last weekend appalled at the horrid anti-semitism in the film and anxious to hear my reaction. After seeing it, I can't imagine how anyone could have failed to see the satire, so I've learned it's best to ask. In what way is Borat a racist movie to you?
posted by mediareport at 7:14 AM on November 10, 2006


I will fight to the death for Milliken's right to hold unpopular opinions. Yet I would ban him for not using the shift key.
posted by LarryC at 9:30 AM EST


Amen. Ban him and throw him in jonmc's radioactive dungeon.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:20 AM on November 10, 2006


*sigh*

*adds more rods to the reactor*
posted by jonmc at 7:21 AM on November 10, 2006


this does not compute.

Being banned from metafilter isn't censorship, because Matt isn't the state. It doesn't violate anyone's first amendment rights. Would it make more sense if I wrote: "I'm not arguing for silencing all forms of self-promotion, just suggesting that we exclude self-linkers from metafilter"?
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:26 AM on November 10, 2006


Better explanation, but I still think that banning someone from the site for their views, no matter how ridiculous, is a bad idea.
posted by jonmc at 7:27 AM on November 10, 2006


Yes, but dude. No shift key.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:30 AM on November 10, 2006


The HIV rate in blacks is much higher than the rest of the country.

And yet Milliken denies that these rates are really higher, using psueudo-science to assert that the rates of infection are inflated among African-American and black African populations. The purpose of this claim is to reverse funding trends for HIV/AIDS treatments in African-American populations, so they'll all die out. You can find this exact argument on stormfront, but since links to them would up their pagerank (I now realize) it's better to just do a site specific google for stormfront.org and "HIV" or "HIV cocktail."
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:33 AM on November 10, 2006


In what way is Borat a racist movie to you?

Ask a Kazakh.
posted by jack_mo at 7:34 AM on November 10, 2006


He admits to baiting people, that's poison to a community to have someone purposely troll others on a single subject. I don't ban people for unpopular views but I do ban for people that purposely fuck with a community to get a rise out of them. If this becomes a habit, it'll be over.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:35 AM on November 10, 2006


I still think that banning someone from the site for their views, no matter how ridiculous, is a bad idea.

You seem to be thinking of MeFi as some sort of ministate, where people have "rights" that should be recognized. That's a bad analogy. As has often been said, MeFi is more like a bar or coffeehouse (depending on what you like to drink). If you wander into your local bar and start ranting about blacks, you're likely to be tossed out, which has nothing to do with censorship in the first-amendment sense, and I'd rather MeFi be that kind of bar than the kind where people go "Yeah!" and buy drinks for you.
posted by languagehat at 7:39 AM on November 10, 2006 [1 favorite]


You seem to be thinking of MeFi as some sort of ministate, where people have "rights" that should be recognized.

Nah, I actually think the place is more interesting with the loons around. Who wants to listen to enlightened, sincere, right-thinking people all the time. Yawn...
posted by jonmc at 7:43 AM on November 10, 2006


Look, it's just poor writing, I read over his comments and get a glazed look because it goes on too long to make simple points, and sometimes those points are further undermined by language such as "retarded" and absurd claims of not being racist at all. In the end it is all just a big wankfest. Counter blatant falsehood, and mock. The moment you get too emotionally involved you've lost.

*damn I've lost the game*
posted by edgeways at 7:45 AM on November 10, 2006


that's ok, edgeways, here's a copy of our home game.
posted by jonmc at 7:48 AM on November 10, 2006


Ask a Kazakh.

Thanks, but I'm asking the person who called it racist.
posted by mediareport at 7:54 AM on November 10, 2006


Millikin's comments expressed a viewpoint (one that, like it or not, is shared by many people). Viewpoints are subject to critical analysis, and can be (in this case fairly easily) rebutted. It's far better to show how pathetic they are than to try to bury them and pretend they don't exist.

On the other hand, this: "Shoot yourself in the head, you miserable piece of shit" is not a viewpoint. It's not subject to rebuttal. It's just a miserable, obnoxious thing to say. It adds no value to the community, and sparks no thought.

So which comment should be deleted?
posted by pardonyou? at 8:02 AM on November 10, 2006


So if we won't ban him for his asshattery, or for his failure to use the shift key, can we ban him for thinking that, in most cases, there's only room for one sentence in a paragraph? Metafilter isn't your high school paper, dude.
posted by I Am Not a Lobster at 8:07 AM on November 10, 2006


in what way do you consider Borat a racist movie?

Let's try this: I'm going to describe Borat, but I'm going to swap out the word "Arab" with the either the word "Jew" or "Jewish" and, of course, "Jew" and "Jewish" will both be replaced with "Arab".

Borat is the story of a Jewish man raised entirely among ignorant, backwards Jews in their ignorant, backwards Jew culture. When he comes to the US, he acts like an idiot, disrespects women, demonstrates poor hygiene, and, most of all, expresses an irrational, nearly psychotic hatred of Arabs. Oh yes, and he also talks funny.

What do you think? Sound like a great light comedy to you? Something thirteen year olds would enjoy?

Of course, what really clinches the case for racism here is that they make it absolutely clear that Borat has all of these wretched qualities because he's Arab, not because he was, say, dropped on his head as an infant.
posted by Clay201 at 8:11 AM on November 10, 2006


If you wander into your local bar and start ranting about blacks, you're likely to be tossed out, which has nothing to do with censorship in the first-amendment sense, and I'd rather MeFi be that kind of bar than the kind where people go "Yeah!" and buy drinks for you.

I'd rather it was the kind of place everyone just shakes their head dismissively and turns their back in a combined expression of boredom, distaste and pity.
posted by StickyCarpet at 8:19 AM on November 10, 2006


He's a dissenting and idiotic opinion but doesn't do any more damage to the filter than a lot of members who's views I actually respect. He's made 41 comments in a little under two years so you can't say that he's taking an opportunity to troll every thread. If he becomes troublesome, and not just because of his angry white male "I'm not a racist but..." act then call for the stark fist of removal.

I was introduced to an interesting viewpoint not too long ago by a co-worker. My new neighbour introduced himself and within 5 minutes exposed himself as a racist. I don't know what led him to believe I'd be sympathetic. Maybe he figured since I had a German car or a shaved head I must be a racist. My co-worker pointed out "At least now you know you don't have to waste any time talking to him."

So I'm not going to waste my breath trying to change my neighbour and I won't bother associating with him. As long as his words are only words and not actions I'll ignore him and let him baste in his own ignorance. If he harasses any of my friends, which as an engineer are mostly non-white, then I'll deck him.
posted by substrate at 8:20 AM on November 10, 2006


Well, Kazakhs aren't Arabs, but I see your point. So, even if Cohen had used a fictional state, am I right in assuming you'd still find the movie racist?

I dunno, sometimes a fictional comic idiot is just a fictional comic idiot. A lot of folks in Kazakhstan seem able to see that; it's not clear at all to me that the film is bigoted against a certain race of people.
posted by mediareport at 8:27 AM on November 10, 2006


Ask a Kazakh.

Look, I don't have an opinion on Borat really, but the Kazakh I know organized an outing to the film complete with mini Kazakh flags for everyone to wave. Also, when the guy cutting his hair asked if it was a documentary, he said yes. So maybe you just have to find the right Kazakh.
posted by dame at 8:36 AM on November 10, 2006


I dunno, sometimes a fictional comic idiot is just a fictional comic idiot.

Okay... so what if I made a movie about a really stupid guy from the fictional state of Purplestahn who regards pork as unclean, is obscenely wealthy but incredibly stingy, manipulates the media and the banking industry, and is never happier than when he's bulldozing the homes of Arabs? I mean, hey, it's just a "fictional comic idiot," right? Since I didn't use the "J" word, no one knows for sure whether I'm being racist or not, right?
posted by Clay201 at 8:37 AM on November 10, 2006


Sorry... that first line is a quote from mediareport; meant to italicize it. My apologies.
posted by Clay201 at 8:38 AM on November 10, 2006


Yeah, The Producers was a racist film too.
posted by Joeforking at 8:49 AM on November 10, 2006


so what if I made a movie about a really stupid guy from the fictional state of Purplestahn who regards pork as unclean, is obscenely wealthy but incredibly stingy, manipulates the media and the banking industry, and is never happier than when he's bulldozing the homes of Arabs?

That guy would be unlikely to get frat boys to make assholes of themselves on camera. Borat is more the vehicle than the joke itself. In the (non-movie) "Throw the Jew down the well" clip, the point isn't him singing the song, it's the audience singing along.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:50 AM on November 10, 2006


Let's try this: I'm going to describe Borat, but I'm going to swap out the word "Arab" with the either the word "Jew" or "Jewish" and, of course, "Jew" and "Jewish" will both be replaced with "Arab".

Wha? Kazhakstan is nowhere near the middle east, it's in central asia.



Look, I don't have an opinion on Borat really, but the Kazakh I know organized an outing to the film complete with mini Kazakh flags for everyone to wave. Also, when the guy cutting his hair asked if it was a documentary, he said yes. So maybe you just have to find the right Kazakh


the right kazakhs. Seriously though, the most Kazakhs seem to be extreemly pissed about this moive, especially in kazakhstan, rather then in the west.
having been part of two giant empires — that of the Mongols and the Soviet Union — Kazakhs are equally proud of their nomadic heritage and European education.

"Our way of thinking is mostly European," said Tuyakbai, the opposition leader. "For 70 years we lived in a totalitarian state, and successfully transformed our society in just 15 years of independence."

His tone changed when the conversation turned to Borat.

"If I see him, I'll hit him in the face," he said.
posted by delmoi at 8:59 AM on November 10, 2006


I think you missed my point.
posted by dame at 9:02 AM on November 10, 2006


Please resolve this important issue so Kazakhs everywhere can sleep nights.
posted by jonmc at 9:03 AM on November 10, 2006


I think you missed my point.

Well, perhaps you could explain it to me?

Please resolve this important issue so Kazakhs everywhere can sleep nights.

Eh, I just think it's annoying when people say Kazakhs arn't offended because they know one or two who are not.
posted by delmoi at 9:15 AM on November 10, 2006


On the other hand, this: "Shoot yourself in the head, you miserable piece of shit" is not a viewpoint. It's not subject to rebuttal. It's just a miserable, obnoxious thing to say. It adds no value to the community, and sparks no thought.

So which comment should be deleted?
posted by pardonyou? at 8:02 AM PST on November 10


You're right. Let's welcome racists into our community with hugs and rainbows. Maybe then we can go easy on the scammers and self-linkers. Then we can grab some members from FR's ranks and seriously discuss the merits of "nuking Mecca" and executing homosexuals. Heaven forfend we be rude to admitted trolls.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:17 AM on November 10, 2006


Anotherpanacea might be a little worked up about things, but he is seeing the roadsigns very clearly, and I appreciate having the benefit of his insights here; Milliken has lost his balance and is going to have to do some really fancy dancing not to end up face down in the worst of human cess-pits-- it may already be too late.
posted by jamjam at 9:18 AM on November 10, 2006


Well, perhaps you could explain it to me?

Eh, I just think it's annoying when people say Kazakhs are offended because journalists found some who are.

You know, some are offended and some aren't. And because there isn't some great history of Kazakh stereotypes that it's drawing on and because there is an alternative non-offensive explanation, to assume that it is obviously offensive is incorrect. At the risk of raising a long-dead debate, it's like "tar baby," only even grayer.
posted by dame at 9:27 AM on November 10, 2006


Kazhakstan is nowhere near the middle east, it's in central asia

I'm pretty sure that Cohen made him a Kazhak isntead of a Palestinian or Pakistani because he knew he could get away with the first but not with the second or the third. Of course, I can't prove that. Anymore than someone could prove the opposite; that he chose Kazhakstan for other reasons.

However, it's easily demonstrated that most of Borat's negative qualities are also found in your basic racist Arab stereotypes: the hatred of Jews, the disrespect for women, etc.
posted by Clay201 at 9:30 AM on November 10, 2006


“He admits to baiting people...”

Y’know, I really hate people who do that. Really. I’ve gone after people who do that like a shark after a bloody chunk of tuna. But in admiting he was baiting he stated the purpose wasn’t mere self-gratification or derision, but to evoke discussion and make people question their own ideas.
I wish you’d be less literal in seeking justification.
Now you want to say ‘hey, this guy is a mook’ and arbitrarially ban anyone - well, it’s your ball and your playground.
But I’m with jonmc, we’re not always cogent writing, judiciously minded and sagacious folks. Sometimes people just get a wild hair up their rectum and try to shake people up.
As to ‘rights,’ well, I like my views being considered and questioned and being forced to re-evaluate them.
I don’t see any reason to ban someone short of purposeful sabotage of discourse - typically self-evident. Doesn’t seem to be the case from that comment.
Other arguments concerning other details I’d cede to. Calling someone an idiot, et.al. doesn’t help. Having flown off the handle myself at times, I’d be a hypocrite not to be understanding. There’s no ‘right’ to speak here, but I would think anyone would consider that freedom a foundational principal in any case.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:50 AM on November 10, 2006


First the call out; thanks to anotherpanacea for pointing out the consistent stupidity of Milliken. Means I can remember the previous comments anytime I see his name again and treat appropriately (File under T for troll, and R for racist). Should he be banned? His statements are objectionable but good to have other points of view about, if only to laugh at and mock.

Second the Borat issue; Clay201 glad you are 'pretty sure that Cohen made him a Kazhak' because he couldn't make him a Palestinian or Pakistani, I admire your telepathy (I'm fairly sure most Pakistanis are not Arabs though). Only Arab stereotypes have a 'hatred for Jews and a disrespect for women'? They seem to be common memes in many stereotypes of peoples/nations so tying this in as proof that Cohen is targeting Arabs is absurd.
posted by Gratishades at 9:58 AM on November 10, 2006


"Who wants to listen to enlightened, sincere, right-thinking people all the time. Yawn..."

Preach! What would MeFi be without a little "action" once in a while?

"Bush Kills Babies!"
"Yep."
"Yup."
"Right on!"
"Got that right."
"Exactly."
"Millions and millions!"

We don't want MeFi to be Fark but do we really want some kind of hive-mind circle jerk going on here?
posted by MikeMc at 9:59 AM on November 10, 2006


APPLE MACS WILL SAVE THE PLANET
posted by sgt.serenity at 10:18 AM on November 10, 2006


do we really want some kind of hive-mind circle jerk going on here?

It's obscene to claim that conservative or pro-Bush views will be furthered by association with white power views; if I were a Republican, I'd be deeply offended. There's an obvious difference between partisan politics, about which reasonable people disagree, and the discourse of white supremacy. Yet bigots have a chameleon-like capacity to mouth the pieties of free speech in order to gain attention. All they want is to be treated like reasonable people, so that their position will gain legitimacy by being debated. That's the trick they play.

White supremacists try to sneak into a debate by referencing the rhetoric of marginalized and victimized groups. It's a version of the liberal-media meme: "If Kurds can have their own nation-state, why can't Aryans?" they ask plaintively. "Why won't anyone take us seriously? Must be a Jewish conspiracy!" White supremacists evince a pride in their people, just like Jews or Arabs... yet 'white pride' is treated as a derogative term, while 'gay pride' is some sort of badge of honor. There are fascinating and tangled justifications for for their violence, prejudice, and intolerance, and they are well-worth investigation and study. However, sociological aberrations don't make good neighbors.
posted by anotherpanacea at 10:30 AM on November 10, 2006


Forgive Milliken his baiting style. Look at his writing; clearly he is still a novice. But with practice and diligence one day he will become a master baiter.
posted by quin at 10:45 AM on November 10, 2006 [1 favorite]


On the Kazakh tip:

Borat is Kazakh because people don't have preconceived notions of what Kazakhs are like (well now they do maybe). Thus, Cohen didn't have to conform to or challenge preconceived notions and was free to invent this wonderful loon Borat, who seems more eastern european than anything to me.

Also, Kazakhs look kinda like chinks, amirite?
posted by Mister_A at 10:50 AM on November 10, 2006


I'm pretty sure that Cohen made him a Kazhak isntead of a Palestinian or Pakistani because he knew he could get away with the first but not with the second or the third.

If you think this is the case, then I suspect that much of Ali G is lost on you. Check out Is it Because I is Black: The Polysemiology of Ali G. A significant part of the Ali G character is the intimation that he might be a South Asian person trying to be black. The name Ali can be read to be Pakistani and many of his interviewees behave as if this is the case. There's also a strain that believes him to be a white person trying to act black, or just a black person. So Cohen has already gotten away with the third.
posted by allen.spaulding at 10:54 AM on November 10, 2006


Mister A- probably right on the Eastern European front. Cohen taught English in the Czech Rep for a time and his greeting 'Jak se mash' is very similair to the Czech (Polish and Slovak too) greeting (trans. 'how are you').
posted by Gratishades at 11:08 AM on November 10, 2006


Reading all the way through this thread was worth it just for the learning of a solitary new word to add to my arsenal.

Many thanks to loquacious for "fucktart!" I smiled through the rest of the thread because of that word.
posted by susanbeeswax at 11:21 AM on November 10, 2006


Brandon Blatcher... didn't you agree with this guy earlier?

Please read what I wrote, hell, you linked to it.

I said he made some "excellent points". At no point did I say I agreed with him. Thank you for understanding the difference.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:26 AM on November 10, 2006


Smedleyman: But in admitting he was baiting he stated the purpose wasn’t mere self-gratification or derision, but to evoke discussion and make people question their own ideas.

If I understand correctly, he's trying to sell people on white supremacy (to see "the evils of blind tolerance").

Not sure how well the usual MetaTalk pile-on will work here, because he doesn't really care what we think, he's just here to preach his ideology.

It's clear that 90% of the occupants of this plane are high on the university ether that is the university lifestyle.

When you are in the real world, please get back to all of us who have practical experience with it.


I have to say that his insistence that OmieWise didn't know what he was talking about in this thread was pretty amusing.
posted by russilwvong at 11:27 AM on November 10, 2006


This is a good callout anotherpanacea.

Get this bum out of here.
posted by dead_ at 11:30 AM on November 10, 2006


Eh, I just think it's annoying when people say Kazakhs are offended because journalists found some who are.

Strange that you would be annoyed by such a thing when you earlier cited a sample of one to argue to the contrary.
posted by Kwantsar at 11:59 AM on November 10, 2006


Brandon Blatcher: I said he made some "excellent points". At no point did I say I agreed with him.

Just curious... which points did you think were excellent?
posted by anotherpanacea at 12:01 PM on November 10, 2006


I was glad somebody Meta'd this, but only because Milliken was turning 56184 into the Milliken show. I mean, its one thing to step back into a thread once and a while when you forgot to say something, but goddamn -- four responses to Paris Hilton? In a row?

I suppose its the drawback of the electronic medium -- you can always go back and set up ANOTHER ZINGER! ZING! Totally got them that time...oh, crap, I mean...
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:14 PM on November 10, 2006


But in admiting he was baiting he stated the purpose wasn’t mere self-gratification or derision, but to evoke discussion and make people question their own ideas.

You mean their ideas about how black people are not all a bunch of violent thugs and the races will never get along? Fuck that shit. Maybe we can get someone who can make us 'question our ideas' about the holocaust next, or how about someone to get us to 'question our ideas' about the whether or not women should be subservient to men.

Does this guy bother me? Not really, I mean his arguments are too cartoonish to be taken seriously. He's a hard-core, old-school racist. Who cares what he thinks? But if he wants an honest discussion he should honestly state his position, so we can all ignore it.

APPLE MACS WILL SAVE THE PLANET

hmmm…
posted by delmoi at 12:27 PM on November 10, 2006


is it true what they say?
posted by delmoi at 12:41 PM on November 10, 2006


"...but to evoke discussion and make people question their own ideas."

Well, he certainly evoked some discussion. I can't help but to wonder how much of the vitriol aimed at milliken is perhaps a response to finding some grain of truth in some of his statements and feeling very uncomfortable about it.
posted by MikeMc at 12:57 PM on November 10, 2006


No, Kwanstar, you missed my point. Someone else said ask a Kazakh. And I said, hey, the Kazakh I know isn't offended. Because the point is some are offended and some aren't. And saying that just because one Kazakh thinks X, Borat definitely is X is stupid. So no, I was arguing the opposite of what you think I was.
posted by dame at 1:01 PM on November 10, 2006


Metafilter,

My remarks of late have certainly given you a headache. From my lack of capitalization to the quickly diminishing size of the mysql comments database, you may have had your fill of me.

I never thought that you would get so upset, metafilter. I guess I should tell you that I have been seeing someone else.

Who you ask? TheOnion. Yes, it's true.

Why? Well, I haven't been happy for a long time. Didn't you see the signs? You almost never make me laugh and frankly, you have been letting yourself go lately.

- milliken

p.s. Sorry for not capitalizing my sentences and other assorted punctuation mistakes. I type 100 words per minute, so I sometimes get caught up in the moment. You might want to consider a spell check?

p.p.s Your pedantic nature makes it really hard for you to correctly reference context in some of the things that I say. You are as bad as an entertainment reporter.

p.p.p.s I'll always love you, metafilter.. Just not in a sexual way.
posted by Milliken at 1:18 PM on November 10, 2006


Just curious... which points did you think were excellent?


These:

--The swing in the 90's towards addressing hate crime was and is part of the affirmative action brigade.-- Me-It's the general sense I get from AA, it started out with good intentions, but it needs to be slowly gotten rid of.


--does nothing to address the backlash that we are (and will see more of in the future) seeing starting to begin in the white, black, asian and latino communities.--Me--here's he's talking about future race issues and a backlash

rather than discuss, point for point (with examples) you decide to poop in your hand, take aim and toss your shit at my face.--ME-- he had a point about Paris not really addressing the points (she did a little), but mostly it was tossing insults.

Also, if the tables were turned, and 25 whites attacked 3 black women, the whites males would already have been charged with hate crimes, even without the "proof" that the DA says that it is seeking.--Me-- Sure it's debatable whether whites would have been so quickly charged, but the overall point stands. Had it been white on a black, this probably woulda been headlines by now

impoverished and uneducated black men more likely to commit violent crimes. dispute this. sure, there are some of you who will say that this is because they cant afford lawyers, that it's sanctioned racism because the rich white guy can buy his way out of trouble. well, so can rich blacks.---Me-- general agree with his unspoken point that it's more about class as opposed to race.

the problem isn't the color of their skin, it's that they unify based on the color of their skin and keep their own communities down, regardless of outside help.--Me-- Yay, there's a tendency to in the black community to do "it's us vs them" all the time, even over stupid shit. Um, no, if one black person acts like an ass, and gets called on it by society, it's not us vs them, it's you being an ass.

Overall though, he's acting like a real ass and operating from a clear biasis, but there are some good points in there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:19 PM on November 10, 2006


I am just bummed that no one jumped on me for saying "chink". Way to totally get the joke, MetaFilter.
posted by Mister_A at 1:21 PM on November 10, 2006


impoverished and uneducated black men more likely to commit violent crimes.

There are many groups of people who are impoverished and uneducated, yet don't commit violent crime at the rate at which blacks do. I think the answer is not genetics, and not socioeconomic. It is cultural.
posted by four panels at 1:29 PM on November 10, 2006


Show me the data four panels.
posted by Mister_A at 1:30 PM on November 10, 2006


Brandon Blatcher,

You're reaching. If you actually read all of his comments, the only coherent, consisten point he seems to make is that because of liberal sympathy for racial minorities, the future (oh, the pendulum swings) will bring racial hatred towards said groups.

Apparently he's just ahead of the curve. Maybe he's from the future!

impoverished and uneducated black men more likely to commit violent crimes. dispute this. sure, there are some of you who will say that this is because they cant afford lawyers, that it's sanctioned racism because the rich white guy can buy his way out of trouble. well, so can rich blacks.---Me-- general agree with his unspoken point that it's more about class as opposed to race.

Uh, yeah, his ridiculous straw man argument sure is a great point. All he's doing there is adopting a viewpoint that will obviously be expressed by his opponents (that it's about class, not race) but he's only attributing half of the argument to them (the law system) and co-opting the other (class itself). The funny thing about that is he's the one playing race politics. He rarely if ever mentions class distinctions, just that white women should be afraid of black men (but black women shouldn't be afraid of white men, apparently).

The rest of his points are just as sloppy or incoherent. He actually blames the Affirmative Action "Brigade" for "addressing hate crimes". What a charge to level! Even if I allowed that the things you quoted were somehow reasonable (they're mostly not), that's still about eight points out of at least fifty that he threw out there.

But, you know, some people seem to enjoy him, so I'll let them keep their macabre court jester.
posted by The God Complex at 1:39 PM on November 10, 2006


Metafiter,

I have to admit, I have learned more about my writing style and juvenile sentence structures than I have about why I am wrong on the topic of blacks in america.

It's almost as if, by way of your response, you have furthered my point about the elephant in the room. Rather than confront truisms in an idea or concept, you would rather attack ancillary and irrelevant components (like spelling, grammar, education, age, etc.).

I know there is a part of you that is able to get past the anger and bias that you feel and is able to see that I have some good points.

I really am not racist. IM NOT. I am more upset and care to be more involved in the deconstruction of the liberal mindset towards minorities because I have read about and seen the results of things like affirmative action.

I actually care that the black community can someday pull themselves up and shed the victimhood that surrounds their everyday lives. Many already have - but not enough.

Metafilter, I get angry that the local, state and federal government has subjugated the civil rights movement and has further (under both parties) pushed blacks into being marginalized citizens.

I get angry that people even need to discuss the practical implications of attacks such as those in long beach. There is no open discussion of race relations allowed anymore, unless you are OK with being called a racist yourself.

What better way to quelch the flow of thoughts and ideas?

I may not be shakespear, but I know that I am not an idiot. In fact, I know that I have a high level of intelligence - sure, maybe it's misdirected sometimes - for that I apologize.

However, I can't get over how little humbuggery I would have received from those who wish to admonish me if, in fact, they agreed with what I was saying.

For the record: I only bait those who cast aspersions at me. My initial comments weren't baiting.

Regards,
Milliken
posted by Milliken at 1:42 PM on November 10, 2006


I think my favorite kind of flameouts are when someone comes to Metafilter and the level of discourse around here is a bit over his head. But, this particular type is smart enough and arrogant enough that he can't conceive of the possibility that there could even be a level of discourse over his head. "I'm pretty smart," he thinks, "and I don't really get what's going on here. Therefore they must all be dumb-so dumb that they don't get me!"

So, this particular personality type then types out a screed about how misunderstood he is, with B- grammar, C+ ideas, and A+ vitriol. Then he storms off, to slightly dumber locales, never to return.

Thanks, Milliken.
posted by Kwine at 1:45 PM on November 10, 2006


Kwine,

I never called anybody an idiot, told them to shoot themselves in the head -or- called out anybody for their own poor grammatical structure or spelling pitfalls.

On your comment:

B for spelling
D+ for ideas (you get a + for being on the football team)
B+ for vitriol

Regards..
posted by Milliken at 1:50 PM on November 10, 2006

However, I can't get over how little humbuggery I would have received from those who wish to admonish me if, in fact, they agreed with what I was saying.
Seems to me it's not really humbuggery you're getting here AMIRITE?
posted by scrump at 1:51 PM on November 10, 2006


> Show me the data four panels.

the data
posted by jfuller at 1:51 PM on November 10, 2006


And thanks for asking.
posted by jfuller at 1:52 PM on November 10, 2006


then types out a screed about how misunderstood he is

Yes, how dare someone type a self-defense post in a MeTa thread started solely to attack them.

And with B- grammar, to boot! Best of the web indeed.
posted by JekPorkins at 1:53 PM on November 10, 2006


Metafilter: I know that I have a high level of intelligence...
posted by matthewr at 1:54 PM on November 10, 2006


consisten point he seems to make is that because of liberal sympathy for racial minorities, the future (oh, the pendulum swings) will bring racial hatred towards said groups.

My take on this is that AA HAS to go away, say within the next 10 at most. There's just no reason for it, in my opinion. Yeah, racisim will never go away and blacks will still have to deal with unfair crap. It's just getting to the point where black people should NOT need any sort of advantage, special help or what have you. AA lingering around and creating that perception just pisses off other groups and degrades blacks.


Even if I allowed that the things you quoted were somehow reasonable (they're mostly not), that's still about eight points out of at least fifty that he threw out there.

My point is the one you make you in that last clause: He has a few good points, but mostly it's just batshitinsane drivel.

As for the rest, we'll just agree to disagree for now.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:54 PM on November 10, 2006


Has nobody ever used sarcasm and wit here? Are you all so dry that you take everything you read at face value? Half of my comments are to evoke response through sarcasm and yet, you take many things out of context.

Read through all the comments, understanding that much of it has been sarcasm (or evocative) and then tell me that I am as dumb as you have stated.

Attack the ideas guys, not the person. It says very little about you when you attack punctuation - something which can definitely suffer a bit when one is typing a page a minute.

Oh, and im not going anywhere - unless the moderators see fit to kill me off.
posted by Milliken at 1:55 PM on November 10, 2006


Half of my comments are to evoke response through sarcasm and yet, you take many things out of context.

I wasn't being sarcastic, that much I promise you.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:58 PM on November 10, 2006


unless the moderators see fit to kill me off

matt always waits for sweeps to do that...
posted by troybob at 1:59 PM on November 10, 2006


Damn Milliken, look at you, you counter-culture, forum-baiting rebel! You against the Internets, right? A Metafilter crusader, out to expose all those "programmic and emotional responses". It's like you're the Che Guevera of the World Wide Web, mixing violent guerrilla tactics with quasi-sophisticated poli-speak. Because in the end, isn't Metafilter like an dictatorial regime in a Latin American country? I mean, my comments are oppressed every day. If it wasn't for your trolling, I would never feel free to express myself. We'll never achieve thoughtful, open discussion unless somebody out there throws in insults and exaggerated statements to get everyone's bile up.

Me, I sure don't know a better way to start a rational debate on racial politics than to start it all out with some epithets and stereotypes, then when people object yelling "HAHA FOOLED U im not racist rilly u guys r stoopid!"

Fuck that shit about opening a discussion on the influence of "thug culture" on disenfranchised African-American youth with thoughtful, well-constructed statements and pertinent citations! That's shit's for pussies! You're above that! Keep fighting the Man, Milliken! Don't let Emporer Mathowie and Empress Jessamyn keep you down! I know you can break us out of the cells they've trapped us all in using our internet connections! Your anonymous comments on this website are gonna lead to a total social revolution! Free us, Milliken! Free us!
posted by schroedinger at 2:01 PM on November 10, 2006


schroedinger,

Ok, that was GOOD. Instead of showing yourself as an idiot, you actually took the time to insult me property - and I can respect that.

As for the quasi speak. I am guilty. Racebaiting? That is a stretch.

I guess I could go and do some reference work and make citations on comments that I have made, but you have to admit that my sometimes retarded comments (I say sarcastic, you say retarded.. tomato, tomatoe) have sure fostered debate on this important topic!

oh.. wait..

Seriously though, guys: schroedinger has attacked me properly. Follow his lead.
posted by Milliken at 2:07 PM on November 10, 2006


Me, I sure don't know a better way to start a rational debate on racial politics than to start it all out with some epithets and stereotypes, then when people object yelling "HAHA FOOLED U im not racist rilly u guys r stoopid!"

Wow. I know just the movie for you to see, then!
posted by JekPorkins at 2:07 PM on November 10, 2006


milliken's report card:
B- grammar, C+ ideas, and A+ vitriol

Kwine's report card:
B for spelling
D+ for ideas (you get a + for being on the football team)
B+ for vitriol


Assuming the categories are all weighted equally, I get about a B- and milliken gets about a B, so I lose--even with extra credit for my football skills. Oh well. Off to the world for me now.
posted by Kwine at 2:13 PM on November 10, 2006


Well, this has been quite productive. Thank you all!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:15 PM on November 10, 2006


Metafilter: the ideas guys
posted by Heatwole at 2:19 PM on November 10, 2006


Ha, JekPorkins, Borat is explicitly satirical (and hilariously so!), whereas Milliken's comments hardly fit the bill--he couches them so thoroughly in serious, mock-academic language that people inevitably get pissed. His "satire" is either malicious in intent (so after the attacks he can claim it's all a joke and everyone who's angry just isn't smart enough to "get it") or simply incompetent.

Milliken, sweetheart, the reason so many people are pissed at you is 'cause they expect posters are going to act like adults, not attention-whoring children.
posted by schroedinger at 2:19 PM on November 10, 2006


Ha, JekPorkins, Borat is explicitly satirical (and hilariously so!)

Um, really? Are you sure you don't mean "implicitly?" Maybe I just don't know what the word "explicitly" means.
posted by JekPorkins at 2:28 PM on November 10, 2006


troll charges apply
posted by Heatwole at 2:29 PM on November 10, 2006


schroedinger,

tell it to the new phone line that has opened up.
posted by Milliken at 2:30 PM on November 10, 2006


Someone call languagehat. This looks promising.
posted by scrump at 2:32 PM on November 10, 2006


Well, just from a practical point of view (my not being a fan of banning people, as we learn from all kinds): Your commmitment to civil rights is admirable; and it certainly makes one curious as to how your posts fit into the larger context of your so-directed humanitarian works (particularly given the shortage of contemporaneous role models in this realm). But as someone committed to the cause, certainly you would want to put the larger, noble aims of the whole before the relatively minor considerations of ego, and put to yourself the question: If my words are not being received as I have intended, and if they are doing more to obscure the issue at hand, to the point where my method of argument takes the stage away from the issues themselves, should I not abandon this particular mode of action and commit myself to a quieter practice of selfless service? You might consider encouraging others perhaps more qualified in the arts of persuasion.

At the very least, you might examine that if your message has failed to be communicated effectively, the fault might more likely lie with the individual sender and not with the larger community of recipients. An important consideration, after all, is to know your audience; if your methods are too clever for them, or if they're not sufficiently qualified to 'get' you, it is incumbent upon you to change how you deliver your message, and rather poor form to condemn their ignorance--which, in the end, puts the last nail in your message's coffin.
posted by troybob at 2:33 PM on November 10, 2006 [1 favorite]


*waits with anticipation*
posted by languagehat at 2:38 PM on November 10, 2006


troybob,

Rather than follow the path of least resistance and drone on and on about how you could break up your paragraphs into. more cohesive. individual sentences, I would rather prefer to address the cogent and delightfully pragmatic foundation of your message.

No, I shall not point out that your tone is somewhat sarcastic, as I have made the same blunders. Alas, how can I even take the time out to extoll the virtues of your dry wit and it's absolute appropriateness in this thread?

Yes, I am but a humble servant of the oppressed. Thank you for your thoughts and prayers.

Seriously though, that was a well put together and all around awesome response. I will actually take it to heart.

Thanks.
posted by Milliken at 2:39 PM on November 10, 2006


MikeMc and Brandon Blatcher have it --

We don't want MeFi to be Fark but do we really want some kind of hive-mind circle jerk going on here?
posted by MikeMc at 9:59 AM PST on November 10

Apparently most of us do.

I said he made some "excellent points". At no point did I say I agreed with him. Thank you for understanding the difference.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:26 AM PST on November 10

Intellectual courage makes me hot.

I can't help but to wonder how much of the vitriol aimed at milliken is perhaps a response to finding some grain of truth in some of his statements and feeling very uncomfortable about it.
posted by MikeMc at 12:57 PM PST on November 10


It would have to be. This pile-on is stupid. Yes, hater trolls should get banned, but our Milliken is not a hater troll.
Having reread the thread, I'd bet money that our Milliken would score lower on the Bigot-O-Meter than some of you who are oh so outraged over what he has said. Even if he were a racist, and if I have now been unmasked as a racist myself by this FPP, does that mean that the only response you can give is, "Eeek, a racist! I'm telling Matt!!!"

MikeMc was also the only person beside Milliken to address the point of my post -- whether the halloween beating was absent from the news because it was not newsworthy, or because it raises issues that make people so uncomfortable that news outlets just wouldn't touch it. My feeling is that black-against-white racism is something no one can talk about without provoking hysteria. Case in point.

It's obscene to claim that conservative or pro-Bush views will be furthered by association with white power views; if I were a Republican, I'd be deeply offended.
posted by anotherpanacea at 10:30 AM PST on November 10


I love this. Apparently perpetual offense is the panacea! If I had a brain in my head, I'd be deeply offended that people who embody the worst stereotypes of lefty political correctness read my threads and derail them with bullshit callouts.
posted by Methylviolet at 2:42 PM on November 10, 2006


1-800-SOCKMEATS

I have a feeling that our friend Toolio here is probably setting up one of those delightfully insightful "exposes" like the Craigslist scandals.

I would recommend not dialing his number and reacting to the fool if you don't want to end up republished and further ensared in trolldom and his easily constructed self-directing hall of shitmirrors. It may appear to be magnificently large and complex, but you can buy that shit in prefab kits down at WalMart these days.

In short, please ban the dork, Matt. I believe he has shown enough intentional trolling and enough laughably reductivist bufoonery to make that call.

He's obviously not here to participate, and he has pretty much openly stated that he's hellbent on "reforming" each and every one of us - however misguided his simplistic assumptions may be about who "we" are.

He can't even wrap his brittle little mind around the concept of who I am, much less the rest of the freaks in this joint, and that's a shame.

For him.
posted by loquacious at 2:48 PM on November 10, 2006


Kwine wins the thread.
posted by delmoi at 2:58 PM on November 10, 2006


I'm pretty sure that Cohen made him a Kazhak isntead of a Palestinian or Pakistani because he knew he could get away with the first but not with the second or the third. Of course, I can't prove that. Anymore than someone could prove the opposite; that he chose Kazhakstan for other reasons.

I suspect he chose Kazakhstan for other reasons: It's far away and unfamiliar to his target audience. They have no real preconceptions about what goes on there other than that it's going to be foreign and backward. It has a name which has notably unusual combinations of letters, yet is easy to pronounce and remember. It doesn't have much of a tourism industry, and is sufficiently small and distant that many people have never heard of it. I'm pretty sure the average member of Borat's target audience would have a difficult time even guessing which continent it's on. The added bit of "funny" that comes from the fact that it's a real place that isn't anything like the way he portrays it fits in well with the rest of his "jokes".

Milliken, he's harder to follow. I'm thinking he's just an ordinary decent guy who's been swayed by various more sophisticated racists into holding some half-formed silly ideas that he thinks of as profound. And then it comes out in this mix of truth, delusion, sarcasm, and vanity that is so hard to interpret that not even metatalk can get a grip on it after 158 comments.
posted by sfenders at 2:58 PM on November 10, 2006


I removed the phone number and locked milliken's account. I think he's played enough with everyone here. I'm closing this thread as well.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:58 PM on November 10, 2006


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