Song Challenge

May 11, 2007 1:30 AM

I have an idea for a songwriting competition, and I think the musicians here are talented enough (and have the know-how / equipment) to pull it off. On a weekly or bi-weekly basis, someone (the winner of the last round) could post a challenge (ex: an old-school country waltz about flowers), then everyone who wants to compete could post their songs and the MeFites could vote. Opinions?
posted by chuckdarwin to MetaFilter Music at 1:30 AM (69 comments total)

Yeah I'd be up for something like that, twould be good to flex the songwriting muscles and I've always found I work quite well with creative constraints.
posted by TwoWordReview at 1:57 AM on May 11, 2007

I like the idea of involving obstructions.
posted by chuckdarwin at 2:29 AM on May 11, 2007

Sounds cool. I'll do it.
posted by chillmost at 3:41 AM on May 11, 2007

Metafilter is not a competition.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:01 AM on May 11, 2007

I like the 'challenge' part of the idea, that is, laying down some stylistic guidelines for folks to follow, some sort of goal for musicians to strive for. Could be a good thing. I'm not so keen, personally, on the 'competition' angle, though. I think everyone's opinions in a community like MeFi will be so varied that it's going to be sort of pointless to look for 'winners' in something like this. I think the normal favoriting process (which we have in MeFi Music just like in the blue and the green) is enough. But I'd like to say also, chuckdarwin, that even though I can't get 100% behind your proposal, it is very heartening to see someone thinking about MeFi Music, and how we might bring more verve and interest to it.

I'm still waiting, too, for whatever new ideas mathowie has (he hinted at them some time ago) for making MeFi Music a more popular destination within the community.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:42 AM on May 11, 2007

Well, people wouldn't have to vote; the number of times a track gets played is pretty much the same thing.
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:51 AM on May 11, 2007

Only if you assume that the same folks would listen to each song at least once, and the songs they like most, multiple times.

You could game that system by mixing a mystery sound in the background somewhere in the middle of the song, say, a plane crash followed by a laugh track, or James Earl Jones purring, "Hi, I hope you like leather," way back in the mix, that would have the listener scratching her head, thinking, "Did I hear that?" and listening again to make sure.
posted by breezeway at 5:07 AM on May 11, 2007

Plenty of people listen to MuFi via the rss feed; their plays can't be counted. Give up on the competition angle.
posted by gleuschk at 5:21 AM on May 11, 2007

OK, no problem. I wasn't married to it ;-)
posted by chuckdarwin at 5:37 AM on May 11, 2007

Or don't give up on the competition angle and just take it outside MeFi. The music could still be hosted and enjoyed here while the musicians battle it out elsewhere. Or you could just encourage MeFites to join somesongs which is pretty much exactly what you're describing.
posted by scottreynen at 5:42 AM on May 11, 2007

I'd be up for it. And given that there is evident opposition to the idea of a competition, let's just call it "challenge," how about that? I think a lot of people would be into it, as it could be a more manageable thing than that whole-album rpm thing in one month.

people wouldn't have to vote; the number of times a track gets played is pretty much the same thing.

Perhaps, yeah, but currently that information is not available to us pedestrians, if it's even tracked.

I'm still waiting, too, for whatever new ideas mathowie has (he hinted at them some time ago) for making MeFi Music a more popular destination within the community.

Me too, and I also suspect that might be what's keeping a lot of people from posting songs lately. People know there are new mysterious features coming and they are just holding their songs.
posted by micayetoca at 5:44 AM on May 11, 2007

Hey, scottreynen, thx for the link to somesongs, I'm checking it out. Quick question: is there a way of playing the song online before downloading it? I can't seem to find it.
posted by micayetoca at 5:47 AM on May 11, 2007

Just a heads-up, but the end of next month (June 29th) is the 1 year anniversary of HiFi. It'd be neat if musicfolks all started working on something special.
posted by Eideteker at 5:48 AM on May 11, 2007

You could game that system by mixing a mystery sound ... that would have the listener scratching her head, thinking, "Did I hear that?" and listening again to make sure.

Heh! I've been doing that all along! So I suggest you all go back to all my past MeFi Music posts, and give them all multiple listenings right now, just so you can be sure to find the mystery sounds. You might've missed them the first time around! A world of mystery awaits you!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:49 AM on May 11, 2007

somesongs, eh? I had a feeling that someone would've already acted on this idea.
posted by chuckdarwin at 6:20 AM on May 11, 2007

Though somesongs is competitive songwriting, I actually got it mixed up with a related site that's much closer to chuckdarwin's idea: Song Fight.
posted by scottreynen at 6:42 AM on May 11, 2007

This week: Write a song about how comfortable American Apparel underwear is, and how you look treble-cool in them.
posted by Plutor at 6:52 AM on May 11, 2007

"...and how you look treble-cool in them."

Yeah, I dig!
Let me put my sunglasses on.
That's the law around here, you got to wear your sunglasses.
So you can feel cool.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:58 AM on May 11, 2007

This week: Write a song about how comfortable American Apparel underwear is, and how you look treble-cool in them.

Does it count if I upload all the songs i already have about American Apparel Underwear?
posted by micayetoca at 7:06 AM on May 11, 2007

Well, I guess if somebody throws out the first topic, we could get started...
posted by davey_darling at 7:24 AM on May 11, 2007

I like the idea of a rolling theme/challenge, too, as a strictly opt-in, for-the-heck-of-it thing. Dead-horse agreement with eschewing the notion of a competition.
posted by cortex at 7:49 AM on May 11, 2007

davey_darling said Well, I guess if somebody throws out the first topic, we could get started...

I thought it'd be nice if one of the admins started us off... if they like the idea, that is.

Matt? Jessamyn?
posted by chuckdarwin at 7:49 AM on May 11, 2007

scottreynen, thanks for the groovy Song Fight link.
posted by chuckdarwin at 7:52 AM on May 11, 2007

I thought it'd be nice if one of the admins started us off... if they like the idea, that is.

I think the idea kicks ass and I'd be inclined to go with something like "puddlewonderful" as a theme and make you all include water sound effects. You might want to wait for mathowie to chime on on this one maybe he has an idea that is actually musical.

Side note to micayetoca: the triple-<small> tags render your included text completely unreadable. You might want to stick with possibly one or two.
posted by jessamyn at 7:57 AM on May 11, 2007

Oh, sorry about that. Will do.
posted by micayetoca at 8:02 AM on May 11, 2007

jessamyn - I'm glad you like it! Hopefully mathowie will as well. I think the obstruction thing is crucial.
posted by chuckdarwin at 8:14 AM on May 11, 2007

I'll play.
posted by magikker at 8:40 AM on May 11, 2007

I love the idea, and I want in. I agree with micayetoca that we need to put a jolt into MuFi somehow, and this seems like a great way to do it. We just need someone to make a decision and get us going!
posted by ORthey at 8:48 AM on May 11, 2007

Side note to micayetoca: the triple-small tags render your included text completely unreadable. You might want to stick with possibly one or two.

Or better yet, none at all. Putting the quoted text in itals is all that's required to make clear that you're quoting it.
posted by languagehat at 9:04 AM on May 11, 2007

Mmkay, yeah, you are right. I did it 'cause I was going to quote two different people and I thought it would be easier to read that way. Didn't really work, as you can see.

Now, back to subject of MetaFilter Music, is there anyone who has another theory as to why it has been so slow lately?
posted by micayetoca at 9:47 AM on May 11, 2007

I think it has a heartbeat, is all. How regular, I don't know, but we've seen ups and down in posting frequency since about month two, I'd say; I'd be surprised if there's been any significant net slowdown over time, though I'd have to check some numbers to see.

That part of the site doesn't see a whole lot of growth, just as there's not a whole lot of action in general. I think revamping the player to make it a lot easier for someone to casually listen would help with the audience side of things. We'll see what Matt has up his sleeve as well; I've got my own ideas about a couple ways to boost attendance, as it were, but bumping Music may not be priority one as site development goes right now.
posted by cortex at 9:55 AM on May 11, 2007

cortex, do you think the song challenge idea would give MuFi a boost?
posted by chuckdarwin at 10:06 AM on May 11, 2007

Maybe a small one; if nothing else, we'd probably see a bit of a burst a week or so from now, for a week or so, but I'd wager that few of the entries would be from folks who haven't already posted something to Music, unless we blitzed the announcement across the top of the blue.

And I think that's one of the things: Music doesn't really advertise—but then neither does any other section of the site. It's interesting to see how new bits of Mefi explode (or don't) based on the natural on-site word of mouth vs. latent demand. AskMe blew the doors off the gate when it was launched, and it's firmly leading the site in traffic these days. Projects has had modest but steady traffic, Music likewise; Jobs barely moves; and I think all of that just indicates the natural inclinations of the existing userbase.

I haven't looked into it formally, but one of the most interesting questions to me about the various mefi subsites is the rate at which new members sign up specifically to use that subsite. Clearly a lot of people do so to comment and post on the blue and the green. The phrase "vast majority" seems fair. However, we get the occasional nothing-but-a-Projects-post member, and I've seen a few folks sign up and post a song to Music before anything else. How much of that is joining-the-community vs. opportunism is a fair question. I don't know if anyone has joined for Jobs, and I'm almost afraid to consider the kind of twisted monster that would sign up for Metatalk and Metatalk only.

So there's two big potential sources for increase Music traffic:

1. Finding ways to get a greater proportion of existing mefites interested and involved in the subsite, and
2. Finding ways to make Music itself a compelling $5 draw for new members.

So the theme thing might help with either of those points, if anybody hears about it—(1) via onsite advertising of some sort (front page banner? podcast mention? simple Metatalk announcement now and then?), (2) from supra-Mefi pimping of some sort. My cynical concern about the challenge vs. (2) is that the thing that'd make it a more compelling draw for new users is precisely the formal competitive angle that a lot of us would rather avoid altogether. We want new community members, not just new dick-measurers, if you will.
posted by cortex at 10:19 AM on May 11, 2007

Thanks for the concise reply; I agree with you. Anyone who has ever gotten and unfair D or F in art class can tell you that art competitions are inherently unfair.
posted by chuckdarwin at 10:34 AM on May 11, 2007

My case: I was a lurker for ages. Like for two years. I liked the site a lot (the blue, I didn't even realize there was Metatalk until like six months before I signed up) but it was the day I "discovered" MetaFilter Music that I couldn't resist. It wasn't to "promote" my own music, but rather because I was thrilled to find a place where other people like me (people who only made music for the sake of music, without necessarily trying to "make it big") were posting their own songs. I was thrilled with the idea of feedback from different kind of musicians from different places.

To this day I still contribute a lot more to music than any other subsite. 22 songs vs. 2 fpps and no askme or metatalk posts. Pretty much twice as much comments in Music than in the other subsites. Still, if you asked me, I'd say I'm a member of the community. Just one that conrtibutes more to music than to the others, that's all.

As for the challenge: I think it would be a great and fun thing to do for Mefi Musicians, and cool new songs would pop up. I don't really think it would attract people from the rest of Metafilter, unless the theme of a week is stavros, or dios or any of the personalities, and that makes it to the sidebar.

But I'd still think it would be a cool thing to do. You know, chuckdarwin, something I think would be cool to do, that could instantly remove the "competition" stigma, is if the theme of the first one was to do a song in the style of one of the Mefi Musicians. For instance to declare one week to be ORthey week, and have the challenge be to record a song that sounds like him. Or like flapjax. I'm sure they would be thrilled to see how their music is perceived by others, and I think the Music crowd is respectful enough that this wouldn't turn into a mock.
posted by micayetoca at 11:18 AM on May 11, 2007

To this day I still contribute a lot more to music than any other subsite. 22 songs vs. 2 fpps and no askme or metatalk posts. Pretty much twice as much comments in Music than in the other subsites. Still, if you asked me, I'd say I'm a member of the community.

Absolutely. I'm thinking of folks who have signed up, posted one or two songs with a link to their band's site, left five or two or zero comments in their or others' songs, and fallen off the face of the earth. Not that that's even a terrible thing, but that vs. someone sticking around (either primarily on Music, or on the site in general): the latter is what I'd like to find ways to really encourage.
posted by cortex at 11:29 AM on May 11, 2007

itals

Itals? What is that, a beanie with a propeller you are wearing today?
posted by YoBananaBoy at 11:42 AM on May 11, 2007

micayetoca - I like the idea of doing music "as inspired by x member"

could be cool
posted by davey_darling at 11:59 AM on May 11, 2007

Itals? What is that, a beanie with a propeller you are wearing today?

"Itals" is how people professionally concerned with type refer to italics. Sorry if it confused you, but your lack of knowledge does not define the English language.
posted by languagehat at 12:20 PM on May 11, 2007

no u
posted by cortex at 12:23 PM on May 11, 2007

micayetoca - But I'd still think it would be a cool thing to do. You know, chuckdarwin, something I think would be cool to do, that could instantly remove the "competition" stigma, is if the theme of the first one was to do a song in the style of one of the Mefi Musicians. For instance to declare one week to be ORthey week, and have the challenge be to record a song that sounds like him. Or like flapjax. I'm sure they would be thrilled to see how their music is perceived by others, and I think the Music crowd is respectful enough that this wouldn't turn into a mock.

The best thing about this idea is that everyone would have to listen to each other's song A LOT in order to imitate one another.

The only thing I want to avoid is it becoming like a Covers Competition. We've already got American Idol, thanks.

God, I hate that fucking show.
posted by chuckdarwin at 12:32 PM on May 11, 2007

I think doing music "in the style of X member" would be too difficult in some cases. I like the idea of a weekly/monthly theme but the themes should be topics, not genres. i.e., "This week's theme is alien abductions" not "write a country-western song."
posted by ludwig_van at 12:39 PM on May 11, 2007

ludwig_van has a point... we have to be sure it's going to be workable and songwriter-friendly.

To be honest, I tried this before on LJ as a songchallenge community (don't look for it, I deleted it) and it flopped because not enough people posted songs.

So the more we can hash it out here and agree the better... because I'd hate to see it fail twice.
posted by chuckdarwin at 12:47 PM on May 11, 2007

doing music "in the style of X member" would be too difficult in some cases.

You are prolly right. Though the idea wouldn't be to "mimic" them, but rather to let them know how they sound to you. What do you hear in your head when you think of their songs. But you are right about the topic-not-genre thing. That'll make it a lot easier.
posted by micayetoca at 12:54 PM on May 11, 2007

I also think it would be difficult to write songs in the style of a certain member, although it would be fascinating if we did get some entries, that's for sure.

What about a challenge to write a song about Metafilter (done before and always popular)? Or a song about the admins? Or a song that you have to write while you're at work? Or something?
posted by ORthey at 1:29 PM on May 11, 2007

IMHO, we should avoid focusing on in-jokey self-referencing songs, particularly if the goal is to attract more casual visitors.
posted by ludwig_van at 1:45 PM on May 11, 2007

yeah, I agree about the in-jokey self referencing songs.
posted by micayetoca at 2:05 PM on May 11, 2007

Yes. Just yes. To everything.

I can't wait to do this.
posted by buriednexttoyou at 3:05 PM on May 11, 2007

Very glad to hear it, buriednexttoyou.

What do you think the challenges themselves should be like?

Fortnightly or Monthly?

Topic-based or Music-based?
posted by chuckdarwin at 3:41 PM on May 11, 2007

Sorry; what I meant is:

Topic-based - write a song about alien abduction

or

Music-based - write a country song

?
posted by chuckdarwin at 3:43 PM on May 11, 2007

So nice to awake and find so many comments on this. Looks like this is gonna take off! Cool! And I like jessamyn's 'water sounds' idea. Is that to be the one, then?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 3:50 PM on May 11, 2007

So nice to awake and find so many comments on this.

To awake. Is it that time of the day there already? I was just getting ready to go out tonight (Friday night here, still) to go see some electronic tango new band. And yeah, I'm glad we are still discussing this, too.
posted by micayetoca at 4:08 PM on May 11, 2007

Is it that time of the day there already? I was just getting ready to go out tonight (Friday night here, still) to go see some electronic tango new band.

Yup, it's the morningtime here in sunny Tokyo! The little sparrows that live in the utility pole just outside my veranda are chirping, and the crows are just now merrily tearing into fresh piles of garbage bags for their morning feast! But what an odd coincidence, I'm just about to go see some new electronic tango band too! Electronic tango is all the rage with the early-morning breakfast set! Big in Japan! I tell ya, this is one craaaazy town! (I think the band has a crow as the lead singer, too...)
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:03 PM on May 11, 2007

Crazy old internet: it's 0100 here in the UK and I'm getting ready to watch Joanna Newsom throw down some mad harp skillz on Later...

I'm happy to go with the water theme, but we need to figure out who is going to decide on the theme for each challenge, what the themes should be like, whether we're going to have any musical obstructions and how often the challenges should happen.
posted by chuckdarwin at 5:09 PM on May 11, 2007

we need to figure out who is going to decide on the theme for each challenge, what the themes should be like, whether we're going to have any musical obstructions and how often the challenges should happen.

Indeed. It's a tall order. I wonder if we could have a sidebar at MeFi Music? Themes, deadlines, whatever could stay up on the sidebar for all to see.

As far as how to decide on themes, how about this: Any and all interested MeFites with suggestions on themes will add them to a page made for that purpose. The page would be linkable from the MeFi Music sidebar. All suggestions would be there for everyone to see. But the actual choosing of the official 'this-time-it's-this-theme' would be done by admins.

And I'd suggest this be a monthly thing.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:34 PM on May 11, 2007

I'm more in the "keep it simple" camp, where we let someone (i.e. a mod or mods) decide and just post it in a thread.. If you have suggestions, you could post them as well, but the official word will come from one of the three.

(i.e. lets not make it any more work at all for the site admins, unless it looks like it's really going to fly)
posted by davey_darling at 12:33 AM on May 12, 2007

I play guitar and write song but have never posted here. Not sure why. I guess its because school has been killing me. . . With the summer coming up I'd be willing to record and put some stuff up. I'm even looking forward to it contest or not.
posted by magikker at 12:34 AM on May 12, 2007

I like the idea of a new topic ever fortnight, because even if you don't get a chance to do each challenge, there's fresh ideas more often. I'm afraid of the challenge stagnating if it's only monthly.

I'm definitely in favor of topical challenges, although a mix of both wouldn't be so bad. Generally, I think a topic challenge sounds more inspiring, but it might be good to try and challenge our genre if we get stuck in a rut. But I think it's best to be broad with the challenges so that we get a wide spectrum of songs that relate to a theme.
posted by buriednexttoyou at 9:28 AM on May 12, 2007

Yeah, I second the fortnight idea, because if for whatever reason someone wanted to participate in one, but something kept him from doing it, a whole month till the next one can be too much.
posted by micayetoca at 7:58 PM on May 12, 2007

And now for comment #60, I'd like to ask our Dear Administrators this question: What concrete steps can we take from now to make this idea a reality?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:24 PM on May 12, 2007

We're talking about some ideas in email. Likely plan is to have a page explaining the theme challenge concept, linked to from a banner at the top of Music mentioning briefly the current theme, time span, and tags for appropriate markup. Matt threw together a quick mockup earlier that looked good.

More details will get hammered out going forward; there are a lot of good ideas in this thread, so we'll see what comes together.
posted by cortex at 9:38 PM on May 12, 2007

Cool!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 10:57 PM on May 12, 2007

I stand corrected.

Metafilter is a competition, after all.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:14 AM on May 13, 2007

But stavros, the hardcore competition part (as in declaring winners, or voting on the "best" or whatever) was ditched way upthread. The idea here, as I understand it, will be simply to have musicians working to produce music based on a more or less specific theme. That's all. As someone who'll in all likelihood be contibuting music to this, I can say that I think it's an excellent idea, something that'll probably be fun and interesting for the musicians and the listeners alike. I think 'challenge' will be the better word to describe it, as opposed to 'competition'.

Also, I paid a visit to your profile, and may I respectfully point out that over the course of your 7-year MeFi membership, your comments to MeFi Music have numbered a grand total of 7, compared to over 12,000 comments on the rest of MeFi, so I guess I have to wonder why you'd even be concerned about this, really.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:07 AM on May 13, 2007

I'm perhaps too late to have anything worth saying, but anyway. I think this is a great idea. It's something that I've brought up before at a different site -- also inspired by The Five Obstructions -- but that never went anywhere.

Thoughts that I had then include:

There could be a certain number of obstructions, contributed by different people and chosen & assembled by the admins, that could cover a range of stylistic or thematic categories. Each participant would choose a set number of these.

For example, perhaps there would be five (!) obstructions: 1) Song should be about monkeys; 2) Song should be in the key of Eb; 3) Song must not contain guitar; 4) Song title must begin with an 'F'; 5) Lyrics must be in the third person. And then each participant would be allowed to disregard -- say -- two of these.

This would result in a less cohesive batch of songs, but I dunno if "cohesive" is what I would be looking for anyway. On the other hand, it allows for some slightly more off-the-wall obstructions ("include a tuba!") that some poeple just wouldn't be able to do -- no tuba within 100 miles? Skip it! -- but might prod someone else into doing something inspired.

My interest in the obstructions is being forced out of the ruts that I occupy. I always write I-IV-V stuff in 4/4. I suppose I could try something different by myself, but I'd rather have someone else tell me, "hey, write a murder ballad, but do it in the style of a boy band!" Fun!

I don't think it's a competition. It's a bunch of songmakers encouraging each other to push outward.
posted by Karlos the Jackal at 4:10 AM on May 13, 2007

Well Karlos, great minds must think alike because this reason:

My interest in the obstructions is being forced out of the ruts that I occupy.

Is the same reason I liked the idea of obstructions.
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:47 AM on May 13, 2007

cortex said We're talking about some ideas in email. Likely plan is to have a page explaining the theme challenge concept, linked to from a banner at the top of Music mentioning briefly the current theme, time span, and tags for appropriate markup. Matt threw together a quick mockup earlier that looked good.

Colour me impressed. I can't wait to see it.
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:48 AM on May 13, 2007

Agreed about the value of obstructions. And since I can't tell if stav was being silly or not, I'll echo this from flapjax, since I think it's precisely correct:

The idea here, as I understand it, will be simply to have musicians working to produce music based on a more or less specific theme. That's all.

It's an opt-in, no-reward prompt. The word "challenge" is an appeal to the motivational nature of the idea: give folks something to bite at if they're looking for an excuse/constraint to push them to do a little work.

As someone with a bizarre fondness for constraint-driven songwriting, it's an idea that I find to be wonderfully useful; but the presentation must, for Music, be one of an unevangelized standing offer, not a requirement: have a crack it only if you like, and however you like, and simply because you feel like joining in the fun. Satisfaction as its own reward, and (I hope) a little bit of extra motivation for non-contributors to become contributors.
posted by cortex at 7:49 AM on May 13, 2007

And since I can't tell if stav was being silly or not

S'okay. Sometimes I can't tell, either.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:04 AM on May 14, 2007