I have a humour imbalance - know any good bloodletters in the Denver area?

August 21, 2007 2:58 PM

Sorry, there really are no 'good psychics', only charlatans. Deleting the posts in that thread stating so isn't going to change that. Are we going to delete negative comments if someone asks the best way to transfer money to dead Nigerian princes? This is 2007 - it's about time that Mefi grows up and allows people to call a scam a scam.
posted by unixrat to etiquette/policy at 2:58 PM (276 comments total)

No. People go to psychics for all sorts of reasons, the same way people go to chiropractors, hire dowsers, or go to church. I wish the OP had explained a bit what she was looking for, but just because you think psychics are charlatans does not give you license to crap in that thread. We've been over that before here many times, unless you can respectfully interact with the OP about their question -- and this can include disagreeing with them, but usually not calling their premises bullshit -- you have no business posting comments in AskMe. If you want to talk about growing up, that would be my advice, for starters.
posted by jessamyn at 3:05 PM on August 21, 2007 [21 favorites]

If you do not feel you can offer a useful answer to the question that was asked, refrain from answering. There are people who are capable of answering the question in good faith, which belies the notion that there is no civil and useful answer to the question as stated.

Refusing to either take a question at face value or walk away is not growing up, it's crapping in AskMe. Flag it, write an email, something like that; refusing to accept the unmolested existing of the query isn't very helpful.

See recently, re: astrology; this isn't the first time it's come up.
posted by cortex at 3:07 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Spoiler: there's no god either.

And your mom was the tooth fairy.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:12 PM on August 21, 2007

All this is beside the point.
A good psychic should be able to find you.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 3:13 PM on August 21, 2007 [20 favorites]

What will happen if I post in AskMe: "Which religion is the right one?"
posted by mullingitover at 3:13 PM on August 21, 2007

If you do not feel you can offer a useful answer to the question that was asked, refrain from answering. There are people who are capable of answering the question in good faith, which belies the notion that there is no civil and useful answer to the question as stated.

So the answer to "How do I send money to a Nigerian Prince?" is "Western Union" or "Gold Bullion"?

These are the answers that have been left in the thread. It's disgraceful. This scammer policy needs calling out, consequences be damned.
posted by unixrat at 3:16 PM on August 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

A good psychic should be able to find you.

Guess how many times that was removed from the thread?
posted by jessamyn at 3:17 PM on August 21, 2007 [5 favorites]

If psychics are not scammers, then ban me right now.
posted by unixrat at 3:19 PM on August 21, 2007

Wait--- you're asking me if I'm psychic?
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 3:19 PM on August 21, 2007

Guess how many times that was removed from the thread?

A good psychic wouldn't have to guess, they'd know.
posted by juv3nal at 3:20 PM on August 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

There are no real psychics, nor is magic real, and yet we accept that there are professional magicians; sometimes people are willing to suspend their disbelief to enjoy a good show.
posted by quin at 3:22 PM on August 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

This is a belief you are talking about, not knowledge. Charlatan might as easily be flung at monks, nuns, rabbis. Because you do not share the belief is no reason to insult it. Tolerance is a pre-req., especially among the rational. Don't be a rationalist extremist.
posted by Toekneesan at 3:23 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Dude, the poster says they're giving a friend a gift certificate for their birthday. Nowhere does it indicate they think OMGPSYCHICSARREEL! They might think it sounds like fun. Their friend might have indicated it's something they'd like to try. Their friend might be a fruitloop and think she needs psychic guidance. Since there's no way to know, I dont understand why you automatically assume that the poster is ignorant of the issues surrounding psychics.
posted by supercrayon at 3:23 PM on August 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

JESUS KILLS SANTA CLAUS.
posted by loquacious at 3:23 PM on August 21, 2007

I never had psychics with a man in Denver.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 3:23 PM on August 21, 2007

Psychics offer gift certificates? Wow.
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:27 PM on August 21, 2007

Some of the best dollars I've ever spent were on the "psychics" in front of Jackson Square in New Orleans. Sometimes it's fun.

Also, don't discount the power of positive thought that these people can provide. Just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

Also, is THIS your card? Of course it is.
posted by ColdChef at 3:28 PM on August 21, 2007 [5 favorites]

There are no real psychics, nor is magic real, and yet we accept that there are professional magicians; sometimes people are willing to suspend their disbelief to enjoy a good show.

No one thinks magicians are real. Many people think psychics are real. All this other noise about monks and the Easter Bunny is clouding the issue.

I stand by my earlier proposition:

If TPTB@Mefi thinks psychics are not scam artists, ban me now. Otherwise, allow the counter-psychic posts.
posted by unixrat at 3:29 PM on August 21, 2007

There are people who are capable of answering the question in good faith

Without faith, there is no answer.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:29 PM on August 21, 2007

So the answer to "How do I send money to a Nigerian Prince?" is "Western Union" or "Gold Bullion"?

The distinction between the sort of documented, unwavering, willful harm implicit in a cash fraud scheme and visiting a psychic should not need to be made. You might as well rail against chiropracters or therapists or birthday clowns—an opt-in service/entertainment question bears no functional resemblence to a 419 scam or, say, an ebay crook.
posted by cortex at 3:30 PM on August 21, 2007

Everyone who falls for a Nigerian 409 scam believes that he is going to get a boatload of money. No one has ever gotten a boatload of money. That's the scam.

There is no one belief that is shared by all people who go to a psychic. It's no more a scam than a phone sex line. Yes, some people won't be able to handle it, but that doesn't mean the whole thing is an attempt to swindle people out of money.
posted by 23skidoo at 3:30 PM on August 21, 2007

Good psychics do not take advantage of their powers by gaining unfair advantage in the financial markets. Bad psychics don't waste their time in bars with people who aren't going to sleep with them.
posted by found missing at 3:31 PM on August 21, 2007

If TPTB@Mefi thinks psychics are not scam artists, ban me now. Otherwise, allow the counter-psychic posts.

I don't think psychics are scam artists as much as I think they're performance artists and I'd ban you right now but I suspect you may be one too....
posted by jessamyn at 3:32 PM on August 21, 2007 [6 favorites]

Psychics rely on the faith of their clients. If were going to start culling threads based on whether or not the underlying assumptions are based on faith then we're opening MeFI up to a shitstorm of biblical proportions.

Seriously, skeptics, relax. Shrill handwaving isn't going to save the souls of the wayward.
posted by lekvar at 3:32 PM on August 21, 2007

I don't really expect someone whose username is partly derived from a computer operating system to have a balanced grasp on the complementary role of rationality and willful but harmless belief in our society. If I want to know the command to dig out a certain file on my filesystem, I know what I need to do. But when it comes to complex topics on human relations, heck, a good people person, like many psychics are, is as good as anything else.
posted by vacapinta at 3:33 PM on August 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

If TPTB@Mefi thinks psychics are not scam artists, ban me now. Otherwise, allow the counter-psychic posts.

Ummm, how about these options:

1) Deal with the rules of this place.
2) Leave this place voluntarily.

Why do you have to be banned? That part makes no sense.
posted by 23skidoo at 3:35 PM on August 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

unixrat writes "If psychics are not scammers, then ban me right now."

Using only the power of telekinesis!
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:35 PM on August 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

And to think that Ronald and Nancy Reagan had psychics Joan Quigley and Jeanne Dixon as advisers when they lived in the White House.
posted by ericb at 3:35 PM on August 21, 2007

Does seeing this Metatalk thread coming a mile away make me a psychic?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:39 PM on August 21, 2007 [5 favorites]

Anyone who makes such a predictable MeTa post has no business attempting to debunk psychics.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:39 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Oh snap, Blazecock. You must be!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:40 PM on August 21, 2007

The future is plastic.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:41 PM on August 21, 2007

I sent a boatload of fruitloops to a Nigerian prince. I'll get back to you as soon as I hear from him.
While you are waiting unixrat, flag if you care to and move on.
posted by Cranberry at 3:41 PM on August 21, 2007

Does seeing this Metatalk thread coming a mile away make me a psychic?

Maybe. Answer me this, though:

How will it end?
posted by 23skidoo at 3:41 PM on August 21, 2007

It is unlikely that the OP is unaware that psychics are not backed by most scientists. Therefore, there is no need for us to tell them so. (If you knew a psychic and had to chip in, you could at least do it in a respectful manner ("Well, there's always XYZ Mystical Consultants, but be aware that psychic advice is controversial.")

On the other hand, if someone asked about the best way to help a Nigerian heir, they obviously aren't aware of the common scam and it would be cooler to let them in.
posted by Count Ziggurat at 3:41 PM on August 21, 2007

How will it end?

Well.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:42 PM on August 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

I see a flameout in our future.
posted by Floydd at 3:43 PM on August 21, 2007

I am a psychic and predict this thread will not go well.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:43 PM on August 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

Sigh. My attempt to help vet the psychic via a link to the James Randi org did not make the cut.

I should've seen it coming.
posted by mullingitover at 3:43 PM on August 21, 2007

I knew that was going to happen.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:44 PM on August 21, 2007

If psychics are not scammers, then ban me right now.

Oh my goodness, what a shocking ultimatum that has really made us appreciate the gravity of this situation!
posted by chrismear at 3:47 PM on August 21, 2007 [10 favorites]

Show us on the doll where the bad psychic touched you, unixrat.
posted by quin at 3:48 PM on August 21, 2007 [15 favorites]

I actually know people who send money to Nigeria on a regular basis. Not everyone in that country is a scammer, you know. Jesus.
posted by delmoi at 3:48 PM on August 21, 2007

JESUS KILLS SANTA CLAUS.

Yes, actually, since baby Jesus is also the baby New Year, and Santa Claus is also the Old Year that the New Year kills.
posted by jamjam at 4:20 PM on August 21, 2007

No one thinks magicians are real.

You mean Uncle Carl isn't real?!?

*cries*

Seriously, though, he's like some kinda' robot, right?
posted by the other side at 4:23 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

If psychics are not scammers, then ban me right now.

No no no. That's not the way to go about it.
If you say: "Either I'm a psychic and I can accurately predict that I will be banned right now OR psychics are all scammers."

Then if you get banned, you will have established your bona fides for a lucrative career as a scammer psychic. Win-win.
posted by juv3nal at 4:24 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Yes, actually, since baby Jesus is also the baby New Year, and Santa Claus is also the Old Year that the New Year kills.

I knew you were going to say that.
posted by loquacious at 4:25 PM on August 21, 2007

Can we ban unixrat for being such a shrill fucking shitstripe?
posted by klangklangston at 4:28 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

There are people who are capable of answering the question in good faith

It's impossible to tell from that post whether the "gift certificate" is a real attempt to provide actual psychic powers to another, or an attempt to provide mere tongue-in-cheek, ironic entertainment. It's useful to err on the side of caution (in good faith), given the extreme numbers of morons on the internets, five bucks or not.

Therefore, it is also useful for moderators to not have a heavy hand in removing posts that point out the widespread numbers of charlatans that prey on such morons.

/me wags a virtual finger at the admins

The distinction between the sort of documented, unwavering, willful harm implicit in a cash fraud scheme and visiting a psychic should not need to be made. You might as well rail against chiropractors

DUDE. Equivocating that questioning the efficacy of psychics and questioning the efficacy of chiropractors are the same useless enterprise misses the point by a country mile. I mean, yowza. Somewhere, there's a forest looking for its trees.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:36 PM on August 21, 2007

I knew you were going to say that.

Well, then you've passed the audition. What's your ETA at Denver International so I can tell tika2000 when to pick you up?
posted by jamjam at 4:37 PM on August 21, 2007

unixrat: Many people think psychics are real. All this other noise about monks and the Easter Bunny is clouding the issue.

Many people think psychics work which is different than thinking that are real, see also placebo effect. It's still not helpful to call them names.

What you know (X) and what another person believes (Y) are not in a position to judge each other. X⊄Y. It's like when religious extremist take a stand on issues not in their jurisdiction, like is there such a thing as evolution, geology, or planets.

Leave them alone and we'll try to keep them off your back.
posted by Toekneesan at 4:37 PM on August 21, 2007

Can we ban unixrat for being such a shrill fucking shitstripe?

Hello, pot? Kettle here...
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:38 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

I don't think psychics are scam artists as much as I think they're performance artists and I'd ban you right now but I suspect you may be one too....

Quit dancing around the question and calling me names, fer chrissakes. If you thought I was a performance artist, then you should have banned me years ago.

If they're real, then ban me.

Which is more accurate:
A) Police departments call in psychics to help find missing people?
B) Police departments call in performance artists to help them locate missing people?

People take this as seriously as those fools who fall for 419 scams.
posted by unixrat at 4:44 PM on August 21, 2007

No snazz on the boodlekips for me, thanks! Great post! lol!

This comment will make perfect sense in a thread due to take place 4 days from now.
posted by chinston at 4:45 PM on August 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

"Police departments call in performance artists to help them locate missing people? "

Please, God, let there be a police department that does this. (That police departments call in psychics can be seen as orthagonal to whether or not they have psychic powers— one of the things that makes, should we assume that psychics are scammers, psychics so effective is that they have an excellent eye for detail and observation, things which could be helpful to an investigation).
posted by klangklangston at 4:48 PM on August 21, 2007

"Hello, pot? Kettle here..."

Yes, Kettle?
posted by klangklangston at 4:49 PM on August 21, 2007

a shrill fucking shitstripe?

Sorry, guys, I'm out of cash this week. Someone else is just going to have to take this one.
posted by cockwaffle at 4:51 PM on August 21, 2007

Dear AskMefi:

Where is the best place to hire a performing Unicorn for my party celebrating the anniversary of America's noble victory in Iraq. Phone number must be a prime number.
posted by Megafly at 4:51 PM on August 21, 2007 [9 favorites]

This is a lame call-out and you are lame for making it.

You seem to be operating under the notion that everyone who goes to a psychic must believe they are "real". I've never been to a psychic and I have very low tolerance for such quackery, but also I'm capable of imagining people having different interests than me while also having some shred of rationality.
posted by 0xFCAF at 4:53 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Could you make a lame call-out and yet not be lame for making it? Could you be lame for making a non-lame call-out?
posted by found missing at 4:55 PM on August 21, 2007

No one is asserting that psychics are real. We are merely saying that a person can be perfectly aware that psychics have dubious real value and still want to see one, just as they may want to go see a professional magician although they know that the magic is not real. And they may not need you to tell them (in a rather insulting way) that all psychics are swindlers.
posted by that girl at 4:59 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

I got chiropractic treatment from a psychic once. McLuhan was right; the medium was the massage.
posted by Abiezer at 4:59 PM on August 21, 2007 [38 favorites]

Abiezer, you must be punished for that.
posted by dersins at 5:02 PM on August 21, 2007

If they're real, then ban me.

unixrat, where I come from, calling someone a performance artist isn't an insult but I'm sorry if you took it as one.

Also, you are not the boss of me. Feel free to leave of your own accord if this is going to make you apoplectic.
posted by jessamyn at 5:02 PM on August 21, 2007 [5 favorites]

I see a graaaave disturbance... [NSFW]
posted by carsonb at 5:04 PM on August 21, 2007

folks, a war has been declared. Between unixrat and psychics. Not that the psychics are aware, but unixrat wants everyone on MeFi to be aware, and in fact is putting up the amazing challenge of being banned from MeFi (gasp!) if psychics in fact, aren't scammers. It would be impressive if it weren't so ridiculous.

Bottom line is that AskMeFi answers are to be pertinent to the question, unlike perfectly fine flame-worthy comments on the blue and here on the grey. On the green, just answer the question if you can, and if you can't, do something else with your life.
posted by zardoz at 5:06 PM on August 21, 2007

Not that the psychics are aware

Well they're not really psychics then, are they?
posted by dersins at 5:13 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

I smell a flame out!
posted by eyeballkid at 5:16 PM on August 21, 2007

I smell a flame out!
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 5:17 PM on August 21, 2007

Holy shit, eyeballkid! How...
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 5:17 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

If they're real, then ban me.^*

Oh. I think I get it.

1- If they're real, you should be banned.
2- You're not banned yet, therefore the admins admit psychics aren't real.
3- If the admins admit psychics aren't real, then flagrant thread-shitting must be allowed.

Doesn't work that way.

^* I can't help but read this in a dramatic, breathy "If you want him, come and claim him!" Liv-Tyler-as-Arwen way.
posted by CKmtl at 5:18 PM on August 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

If a Bf doesn't feel he wants to spend all the afterlife with the Gf it isn't because he doesn't love you. You're just full of shit clingy.

Right thread?
posted by Shave at 5:19 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

No one thinks magicians are real.

Gee thanks. How about a spoiler alert next time!?

*sob*
posted by amyms at 5:19 PM on August 21, 2007

/me nods at weapons-grade pandemonium knowingly.

Also, you will receive important news in the mail today.
posted by eyeballkid at 5:20 PM on August 21, 2007

While you are waiting unixrat, flag if you care to and move on.
Yeh, he can hardly flag deleted posts, can he? Perhaps we should be able to -- so that a deleted post can get hundreds of "reinstate!" flags. Just now the system only works one way.
posted by bonaldi at 5:26 PM on August 21, 2007

MetaFilter: Psychics please flag in advance.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 5:28 PM on August 21, 2007

unixrat, your psychic sister is a whore.
posted by item at 5:29 PM on August 21, 2007

If there are no psychics then how do you explain gravity.
posted by Samuel Farrow at 5:31 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

If TPTB@Mefi thinks psychics are not scam artists, ban me now.

C'mon, somebody give this doofus the bannination he's so desperate for!
posted by languagehat at 5:32 PM on August 21, 2007

This reminds me of a funny story that my father tells.

He's in law enforcement and one day they had a domestic disturbance call. When he arrived a couple of cars were already there. Everyone had their weapons drawn at a naked man in the front yard. He was waving a gun and screaming, "Shoot me," over and over again. One of the officers was telling the man to calm down, place the gun on the ground, and put his hands on his head.

"I double dog dare you to shoot me," the man said. Once again the cop with the bullhorn told him to calm down, place the gun on the ground, and put his hands on his head.

"I triple dog dare you to shoot me," and at that point all of the officers opened fire. When the shooting stopped, the cop with the bullhorn said, "Don't ever triple dog dare us again."

Then they had donuts. Probably glazed.
posted by sleepy pete at 5:32 PM on August 21, 2007 [13 favorites]

Wow, I wish a caring friend had bought me a gift certificate to a psychic that could have warned me to read this MeTa (and burn a green candle in the southwest corner) before posting in the AskMe. Sorry.
posted by bunnycup at 5:33 PM on August 21, 2007

Everyone who falls for a Nigerian 409 scam believes that he is going to get a boatload of money.

I fell for a 409 scam. What I believed I was going to get from the widow of Nigerian banker was a nice, clean bathroom, but she only vacuumed and dusted.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:33 PM on August 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

"unixrat, your psychic sister is a whore."

Man, that sounds like some Guided By Voices lyric.

(Guided By Voices? Isn't that what psychics claim? Either ban me or admit Robert Pollard KNOWS THE FUTURE!)
posted by klangklangston at 5:33 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

The future is plastic. -- posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson

IRFH -- are you trying to seduce me? ; )
posted by ericb at 5:42 PM on August 21, 2007

I think we're done here.
posted^`by cortex at 5:45 PM on August 21 [+] [!]

I think we're done here.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 5:43 PM on August 21, 2007 [5 favorites]

I think we're done here.
posted`by cortex at 5:45 PM on August 21 [+] [!]

I think we're done here.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 5:43 PM on August 21 [+] [!]

Whoa.
posted by rtha at 5:46 PM on August 21, 2007

Man am I in trouble.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 5:48 PM on August 21 [+] [!]


Damn skippy.
posted by cortex at 5:49 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Robert Pollard knows not the bounds of time and space!

And boy, has unixrat ever got his kickers in a twist over this one. I can't imagine caring enough about something like psychics to start a whiny metatalk thread about them...
posted by Jimbob at 5:50 PM on August 21, 2007

Another four hours of this? I didn't foresee that.
posted by Shave at 5:50 PM on August 21, 2007

Hmm maybe we should be more sensitive.

Did a psychic touch you in a "bad" way once, unixrat?
posted by Jimbob at 5:53 PM on August 21, 2007

I think we're done here.
posted`by cortex at 5:45 PM on August 21 [+] [!]

I think we're done here.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 5:43 PM on August 21 [+] [!]

rtha : Whoa.

Dude! He's posting from the future! The fucking future!
posted by quin at 5:54 PM on August 21, 2007

I'm going to start suggesting psychics as the solution to all future relationshipFilter threads, since that will combine two things I dislike.

Also, Mr. Vick should see a psychic.
posted by smackfu at 5:55 PM on August 21, 2007

"If you believe in telekinesis, raise my hand."

Who said that? Stephen Wright or Emo Phillips, I think? (Google won't give me a definitive answer, and I can't afford to consult a psychic)
posted by amyms at 6:01 PM on August 21, 2007

I really wanted to post this very thread, but then I realized that it doesn't really matter how wrong I think somebody is, it's their constitutional right to waste their own money.
posted by tehloki at 6:03 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Anyone else ready for a pie and tonic?
posted by Kwine at 6:06 PM on August 21, 2007

*sigh*
*unzips fly*
I'll get the vermouth.
posted by tehloki at 6:09 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Bloodthirsty languagehat is hilarious.
posted by sciurus at 6:12 PM on August 21, 2007

Fine, fine, fine— recommend me a good CHARLATAN.
posted by klangklangston at 6:22 PM on August 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

I think sciurus has a line on one.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 6:25 PM on August 21, 2007

Oh Christ, jessamyn. I'm SORRY. Please don't delete me along with my comment. I promise not to read MetaTalk sleepy again. Ever.
posted by Eideteker at 6:31 PM on August 21, 2007

I did not have psychics with that woman.
posted by flabdablet at 6:35 PM on August 21, 2007

The admins are wrong on this one. By AskMe's own rules, the question is invalid because it is unanswerable.

If anything should be removed, it is the question, not the answers.

Also, my answer, while ridiculing the question, actually provided a list of psychics in the Denver area, and it STILL got deleted. So yeah, I'm a little aggravated.
posted by Ynoxas at 6:35 PM on August 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

In an alternate bizarro universe somewhere in the 18th dimension, an angry Mefite sits in front of the computeratrix, bending spoons with his mind.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:44 PM on August 21, 2007

I've been a believer in psychic powers ever since the first medium I visited took one look at me and said "you masturbate frequently." I mean, how could she have known? And yet, the truth was out.

The first tarot reading I had done (the teller used a traditional Celtic Cross spread) ended with Unresponsive Dowsing Rod across The Fapper. That was a pretty terrible month.
posted by maxwelton at 6:58 PM on August 21, 2007

"I don't understand the mindset of people who complain about things getting deleted." -- unixrat
posted by L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg at 7:08 PM on August 21, 2007 [9 favorites]

*reheats popcorn*
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 7:09 PM on August 21, 2007

Nail, this is coffin.

Coffin, nail.
posted by item at 7:18 PM on August 21, 2007

Here's an interesting idea:

Some psychics work.

Not because, necessarily, such a thing as telepathy works, or that tarot cards work, or anything like that.

It's just that there are some people out there who are particularly observant, empathic, etc. and are thus able to tap in more easily to the reality of the situation than the average person. After a few sentences they are somehow magically able to capture extensive knowledge about the person they're talking to, but not because this is actually magic, but because unlike you and me they're somehow able to really hear that person on a completely other level.

The psychic who works for police departments, the most famous of them, lives near my home town and they did an excellent article on her in the local paper. She herself was ambivalent on whether she was tapping into psychic energy or not when solving the crimes. More likely she was just had an increased ability to synergize clues and to absorb the feel of a place.

Nowadays, a fair number of crimes are solved by DNA. And a fair number of crimes are also solved using profiling. These techniques use different qualities.

Here's the thing. Psychics in the back of magazines? The ones who tell you bullshit that could apply to anyone and drag you along and cost thousands of dollars? Those are bad psychics. The ones that are more empathic and view the sessions as an opportunity to apply wisdom and knowledge to your personal self? Those are good psychics.

And also, you don't believe in psychics. Great. You probably don't believe in a higher being, either, or reincarnation. You're one of the ones who can't have faith because you can't believe in things, you need them proven to you. That's great. We need people like you to constantly question held beliefs and move things along. But there have been a lot of really awesome men and women "of the cloth" who have moved things forward because they believed in things without any proof at all.

Scamming is incidental to being a psychic, not central to it. Many psychics think they're psychic and are there to help people. They're not making a killing off of others, it is just their job. The stock market is "real" and there are plenty of financial advisers who have and might continue to rob their clients blind. There are scientists who spend your tax dollars to run studies that prove something obvious-- people's inhibitions are lowered when they drink, etc (I don't necessarily think this is a "scam" but it's definitely not money well spent). War is real, and rebuilding after a war is real too. Guess who is currently scamming on the order of billions of dollars (hint: not psychics).

The admins are wrong on this one. By AskMe's own rules, the question is invalid because it is unanswerable.

No, it's not. I gave a pretty good definition of a "good psychic". I imagine if you went to someone with an open mind and had a pleasurable experience, you'd call them a good psychic.

Also, my answer, while ridiculing the question, actually provided a list of psychics in the Denver area, and it STILL got deleted. So yeah, I'm a little aggravated.

Gee, I wonder why it got deleted?

Here's an analogous example:

Q: I think I might have chronic fatigue syndrome, and have really bad headaches because of it. What can I do?
A: You are an idiot. Chronic fatigue syndrome doesn't exist, and you are just being a pussy. Aspirin, tylenol, and advil are all common headache medicines.

Are you giving "answers" to the question? Yes. Are they useful? No, not unless you think searching google or telling someone something they already know is useful.

I am so sick of this coming up every time there's a question about people believing in something. And this wasn't even like the astrology question that was open ended. This one was very specific, and still people have to crap in it.

I imagine this kind of hostility might make people nervous to go to the green with their questions. And let's be honest: who would you rather be giving advice about psychics? MeFites, or Cleo?
posted by Deathalicious at 7:19 PM on August 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

Don't reheat it (yuck), just pop a fresh bag.
posted by amyms at 7:21 PM on August 21, 2007

OH dammit. Just pretend my em tag stopped a long time ago. Sorry. Maybe someone can fix that.
posted by Deathalicious at 7:21 PM on August 21, 2007

It's no more unanswerable than "Recommend a good casino," or alternately, "Recommend a good recipe for poopoo pitas."

Psychics exist. It may be a misnomer to allow such people that title, but there they are, out on the streets, being cvalled that by speakers of English without fingerquotes, and ergo, there is some rubric of evaluation for their performance which good AskMe answerers can elucidate upon.

Is obsession with empiricism some form of Autism I'm unaware of?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 7:26 PM on August 21, 2007 [6 favorites]

Well, then you've passed the audition. What's your ETA at Denver International so I can tell tika2000 when to pick you up?

I was there yesterday. I already have my assigned dossier and my license to confuse. I'm on assignment... right now.

WHAT THE FUCK, MAN? WHY DID YOU BLOW MY COVER?
posted by loquacious at 7:34 PM on August 21, 2007

Is obsession with empiricism some form of Autism I'm unaware of?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur

Be careful--when you're aware of it, you've got it.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 7:45 PM on August 21, 2007

Doesn't anyone believe in the placebo effect anymore?
posted by blue_beetle at 7:46 PM on August 21, 2007

blue_beetle said: Doesn't anyone believe in the placebo effect anymore?

Yes (shameless self-link)
posted by amyms at 8:06 PM on August 21, 2007

Do links to our own Metafilter posts count as self-links?
posted by amyms at 8:06 PM on August 21, 2007

Dear AskMefi: Can anyone suggest a good exorcist in the Denver area? My son is infested with demons and we need to beat the devil out of him real quick. Please, no judgementalism. Kthxbi. ;)
posted by Avenger at 8:17 PM on August 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

If psychics are not scammers, then ban me right now.

Would you be willing to cut off your right hand to prove their lies?
posted by Krrrlson at 8:21 PM on August 21, 2007 [7 favorites]

So I was giving a woman a shampoo, all of a sudden she sat up looked at me and said' YOU ARE UNDER PSYCHIC ATTACK! BY TWO WOMEN AND A MAN! Who Are They? I gave her the names of my previous two wives(both in town at the same time) and a bad roommate who was involved with wife #2 after I thew him out of my place. That night at dinner I noticed that my food was weirdly tasteless, the next morning I had full blown Bell's palsy that lasted about six months. coincidence.
posted by hortense at 8:24 PM on August 21, 2007

That IS spooky, hortense.

I've only been to a psychic once (a gift from my crazy mother on my 16th birthday)... The psychic, who worked with a deck of cards (not tarot, just regular playing cards), told me that I would lose my father at a young age (true, he died when I was 19) and that I would marry my current boyfriend, but that he wouldn't be good for me (also true). I think back on that reading sometimes and get spooked, wondering if it was just a lucky guess or if she was really truly seeing something.
posted by amyms at 8:37 PM on August 21, 2007

Would you be willing to cut off your right hand to prove their lies?

i'm teleporting a bent spoon so he can do that right now
posted by pyramid termite at 8:39 PM on August 21, 2007

so could we have called the OP out for asking for a psychic surgeon? or homeopathy? OR HITLER?
posted by beefetish at 8:40 PM on August 21, 2007

You know who else consulted psychics?
That's right--this guy.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 8:56 PM on August 21, 2007

True story: In high school, before getting a real job, I worked weekends in a gift shop in the lobby of a nice hotel.

They had a Psychics Convention in the hotel one weekend, with meetings in various ballrooms, and at least twenty psychics came in during the day to ask where the next meeting was.

After a while, I was like, "I'm thinking as hard as I can, how come you can't read my mind?"
posted by misha at 9:01 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

My first thought for that post was, "No, I can't recommend a good psychic in Denver or anywhere, because I don't know of any real psychics."

So I just didn't post in the thread, because I knew it would end up here in the grey (hey! I'm psychic!).
posted by misha at 9:06 PM on August 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

So cortex are you unable to fake the font properly for a fake post or did you just not take the effort?
posted by Mitheral at 9:15 PM on August 21, 2007

OK, here's my crazy psychic story, which I heard from an actual mental health professional.

Guy is having a sanity hearing in front of a judge. Judge: "So it says here you believe you can read minds."

Guy: "Yes, your honor, and I can prove it to you."

Judge: "OK, sir, go right ahead."

Guy, with a crafty look on his face: "OK, now tell me what I'm thinking."
posted by ottereroticist at 9:28 PM on August 21, 2007 [4 favorites]

Deathalicious: Can you please recommend a good lubricant for my perpetual motion machine? Must have a less than 0 coefficient of friction.

Please don't respond about how there is no such thing. I've already made up my mind there IS such a thing, I'm just asking you to give me recommendations.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:35 PM on August 21, 2007 [3 favorites]

unixrat's right, "psychics" are scammers (whether they know it or not), "psychic powers" are just bullshit, and people who think psychics are right delude themselves.

But arguing with the Mefi Mod Crew is just as useless and makes nobody any money.

Solution: totally ignore me and do whatever you want.
posted by davy at 9:44 PM on August 21, 2007

"there is some rubric of evaluation for their performance"

It's called a quick-'n'-easy IQ test: if you think psychic powers are real you fail.
posted by davy at 9:47 PM on August 21, 2007

"...cockwaffle...hee hee hee hee hee..."
posted by Lynsey at 10:02 PM on August 21, 2007

Can you please recommend a good lubricant for my perpetual motion machine? Must have a less than 0 coefficient of friction.

Please don't respond about how there is no such thing. I've already made up my mind there IS such a thing, I'm just asking you to give me recommendations.

Was that meant to make us ponder and re-evaluate our assumptions? Because I actually think that would be a fine question. If someone can indeed recommend such a lubricant I'd be interested too certainly. Though in all honesty, it would be deleted.

I know you guys think there's a Pandora's box open: "How can I get the pink elephant in my room to stop flying so much? Please, no comments about how there really is no pink elephant."

But the truth is that in this world, in our reality, psychics exist and they are commonly consulted. There are several within a few blocks of where I live. I can actually give you directions to one. Can I point out a perpetual motion machine or a pink elephant in the same way? No.

The question was fine because it is a practical one. And it remains so even if you think that the services psychics provide does not agree with your particular tastes or world-view.
posted by vacapinta at 10:07 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Now I'm really confused. Who are the empiricists, again?
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:06 PM on August 21, 2007

But the truth is that in this world, in our reality, psychics exist and they are commonly consulted. There are several within a few blocks of where I live. I can actually give you directions to one. Can I point out a perpetual motion machine or a pink elephant in the same way? No.

*ahem*

The thing is, psychics and psychic powers are most definitely not part of our reality. Scam artists, con men, delusional mystics and performance artists are apart of our reality, but to call one of them a "psychic" is roughly the same kind of mistake as calling Steorn's magnetic flywheel whirligig a "perpetual motion machine".

Now I realize the mods have made up their minds about all this, so the "Help me find [scam and/or impossible thing] in Denver" AskMe questions will continue. It's their website and they're more than welcome to have whatever they want on it.

Previously, I always found personalities like Dawkins et. al. to be infuriating with their self-sure condemnations of everything and anything that can't be verified by science -- but its posts like these that drive me closer and closer to becoming a full-fledged member of the Rationalist Jihad.
posted by Avenger at 11:15 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

MetaFilter: It may be batshitinsanity, but at least it's practical batshitinsanity.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:31 PM on August 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

The thing is several people have brought up magicians and I think its a valid analogy. If a friend of mine insists that magicians are in fact "real" and at the same time is asking me which is the best one - is there one I can recommend? Well, i may not agree that what they do is "real" and yet, surprisingly, i can nevertheless recommend a good one. And he'll pay his admission and have a great time and thank me for it.

Its the same here. The question is answerable. There's no reason to go into metaphysics at all. Thats the way in which this is different than a perpetual motion machine. Psychics which people visit and trust are not violating any laws of physics.

When i say they are part of our reality, I dont mean yours and mine specifically. I dont believe in psychics nor do I believe in religion. But if someone asks me on the street if i know a good psychic nearby, I might point them to one that friends have visited. Likewise, if they ask for a good nearby Roman Catholic church, I can probably point them in the right direction.

The Ask Mefi question is like the polite stranger in the street. If you can't help them and as long as they're not about to do something obviously reckless ("What would be a good bridge nearby to jump off of?") then help if you can, otherwise politely decline.
posted by vacapinta at 12:14 AM on August 22, 2007 [4 favorites]

What vacapinta said.

In the absence of any other clarification from the original poster, it's not clear at all that what the question is asking for isn't simply an entertaining performance that they fully understand to be based on no rational fact.

The question does not ask "Recommend me someone who can read my mind/predict my future." Which, while it still might be allowed by the moderators here, would be a different kettle of fish.
posted by juv3nal at 12:44 AM on August 22, 2007

But if someone asks me on the street if i know a good psychic nearby ...

... give them my name and tell them to bring cash.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:05 AM on August 22, 2007 [1 favorite]

I always figured those "psychics" with a sandwich board in front of a second-story walk-up were just fronts for services of a more carnal nature.

No?
posted by orthogonality at 2:18 AM on August 22, 2007

Unixrat, people who want to be scammed get scammed. Whether it's pro wrestling, lotto tickets, going on Jerry Springer with their girlfriend and best friend to find out what the surprise is, signing up for a cult, whatever.

Sometimes there are parts of the transaction between the scammer and the scammee that are beneficial for the scammee. In the case of psychics it is a sort of low cost counseling service that they can get without the stigma of going to a psychologist ( I agree that the stigma should be the other way around ).
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:57 AM on August 22, 2007

May I have a cookie please?
posted by a shrill fucking shitstripe at 4:33 AM on August 22, 2007 [2 favorites]

I imagine this kind of hostility might make people nervous to go to the green with their questions.

I don't think there's much question of that.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:00 AM on August 22, 2007

I imagine this kind of hostility might make people nervous to go to the green with their questions.

If an idiot learns something from it, then Ask served its purpose.

At least what I thought the purpose was, which I don't think it is anymore.
posted by unixrat at 5:44 AM on August 22, 2007

Hey unixrat, you're back! You seem to have missed this comment, so as a public service I'm bringing it to your attention. Anything to say, or are you just going to slink away (hopefully after cutting off your hand)?

/bloodthirsty languagehat
posted by languagehat at 6:31 AM on August 22, 2007

If an idiot learns something from it, then Ask served its purpose.

But alas, this does not seem to be the case...
posted by desuetude at 6:35 AM on August 22, 2007

If psychics are not scammers, then ban me right now.

So by the eighth comment in the thread, you're already falling into an either/or fallacy. ("Either psychics are scammers, or I will be banned.") Not to mention attempting (and failing) to provoke the mods into an appeal to force.

For someone trying to promote a rational worldview, it's shameful that you fall into fallacy so quickly. Please leave the defense of skepticism to those of us who understand how to do it without making spurious arguments.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:38 AM on August 22, 2007 [1 favorite]

Its posts like these that drive me closer and closer to becoming a full-fledged member of the Rationalist Jihad.

Why? Because you really can't bear to think that otherwise intelligent people would spend their money on something you think is foolish? If I AskMe'd looking for a Magic 8 Ball would that strike the same nerve?

If you were a Scientologist and someone posted looking for a psychiatrist in their area to prescribe antipsychotics, would you take the same tack that unixrat has here?

Deathalicious's comment above is spot on. I'm not a psychic, but I do read tarot cards expertly. Many people have found what I do to be meaningful and interesting and some have paid me handsomely to do it.

When someone consults me, they are merely in search of a pretense to examine and discuss their situation with someone who can make possibly-inspired suggestions based on what a random assortment of symbols and archetypes may add to the conversation. The cards serve as a way of drawing focus off of the individual giving or getting the reading, and whittling it down to shine on the basic elements of the situation. It's a way of helping someone momentarily detach from their life story and see it as something malleable in their hands. When it goes well, it can be a profound experience. At worst, it's merely a novel one.

The idea that any rational person would stand in the way of someone seeking this sort of experience out of misguided self-righteous indignation is baffling to me. We do and need a lot of things that seem silly and are hard to defend. Get over it.
posted by hermitosis at 6:42 AM on August 22, 2007 [14 favorites]

If an idiot learns something from it, then Ask served its purpose.

At least what I thought the purpose was, which I don't think it is anymore.

Nononono, the purpose of AskMe is to provide comments which answer the questions that are posted.

MetaTalk is where idiots go to learn things. Things like "Mods won't ban you just because you're whiny".
posted by 23skidoo at 6:45 AM on August 22, 2007 [2 favorites]

So start the front page self linking unixrat.
posted by Mitheral at 7:03 AM on August 22, 2007

jessamyn writes "unixrat, where I come from, calling someone a performance artist isn't an insult but I'm sorry if you took it as one."

You should have called him a mime artist. Then there would have been no ambiguity whatsoever.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:05 AM on August 22, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'd like to note that Carl Sagan, a man so skeptical that he actually caused several breakfast cereals to vanish from reality simply by doubting their existence (Skippy Sugar Snacks, I still remember you), wrote in his book on skepticism, The Demon-Haunted World, that he still wasn't sure that three particular subfields in, ah, "paranormal" research could yet be entirely dismissed.

Appeal to authority? Probably. But the guy was a decent scientist, so maybe it's not unwarranted.
posted by adipocere at 7:05 AM on August 22, 2007

Refusing to either take a question at face value or walk away is not growing up, it's crapping in AskMe.

Wrong. Not deleting the post is crapping in AskMe. But admins get to do that.
posted by b1tr0t at 7:23 AM on August 22, 2007

Please don't respond about how there is no such thing. I've already made up my mind there IS such a thing, I'm just asking you to give me recommendations.

so... would there be a problem if the question just sat there with (0 answers) ? If none of us can help, then none of us can help, right? Or if someone wants to make a polite suggestion that perhaps Askmefi isn't the right place to go to for such a question, with a respectful, in-case-you-didn't-know explanation of why perpetual motion is generally rejected, then I imagine that'd be okay. What's unnecessary is getting completely bent out of shape and mean spirited over someone's point of view. "psychic" and "psychologist" come from the same root; in many cases the psychic's role used to be more of a counselor and guide with a bit of a ritualistic / entertainment aspect thrown in. People would go when they needed to make a decision or at some other pivotal time, and the "psychic" would often be the sort of person who was good at picking up on things, so would be able to make insightful comments or predictions. Of course some have always been scam artists, but it's not as simple as that.

And, like it or not, there is plenty of shit in the modern world that you pay for whose return-on-investment is arguably as dubious as a psychic. The entertainment industry is probably one of our largest industries, but most of its products could be categorized as wastes of time. If you imagine goals to be becoming fitter or smarter, much of what we buy is actually counterproductive. So some might say you're being scammed all over the place, especially when the advertising tries to make you believe something different...
posted by mdn at 7:26 AM on August 22, 2007 [2 favorites]

Wrong. Not deleting the post is crapping in AskMe. But admins get to do that.

It's a legit question that you and some other folks don't like. Pyschics-as-service-providers exist in plain point of fact independent of any question of Actual Psychic Powers; folks who've gone to them (whether for entertainment or reviled-by-some superstition or some mix of the two) can offer recommendations on their experiences to the asker.

The asker mentioned not one goddam thing about believing that psychics are infallible magicians to whom they'd like to disburse their life savings. The hollering about scams and the refusal to accept a distinction between psychics-as-trusted-magicians and psychics-as-entertainment-service-providers is the only thing propping up an argument that the question violates the guidelines, or that answers mocking or deriding belief in psychics make sense in that thread. It's self-righteous, look-at-me whining about something you just don't like.
posted by cortex at 7:44 AM on August 22, 2007 [4 favorites]

Sorry, there really are no 'good psychics', only charlatans.

Do you have any actual argument or evidence to back this up besides prejudice or anecdote?
I'm a skeptical atheist, etc., but don't assume to have the last word on things without any actual data.
posted by signal at 8:13 AM on August 22, 2007

I had the same thought unixrat did when I saw the original question and I agree with his point, although he is not doing a very good job of winning people over. Earlier jessamyn said that there is a difference between psychics and 419 scammer. Not always. Many (most? all?) psychics rely on this sort of swindle for the bulk of their money and warning people of this fact ahead of time if they are planning to visit one is a valid answer. I have a reasonably smart, college educated friend who went to a psychic "just for fun" and ended up handing over several hundred dollars before she realized she was being strung along; it happens to a lot more people than you might think.

Do you have any actual argument or evidence to back this up besides prejudice or anecdote?

While my examples are certainly anecdotal, it would be difficult to do a study of what percentage of psychics are actively conning people, since it is illegal and they are not likely to talk openly about it. Many victims of these, like all cons, are too embarassed to come forward as well, and of course some people never even realize they have been conned out of a significant amount of money. It does happen enough that the Los Angeles Sheriffs Department lists psychic scams on the same page as all the other classic cons that people still fall for.
posted by TedW at 8:54 AM on August 22, 2007

It's too bad unixrat posted this using such combative language. I think that set the tone for the entire thread. Still, I see this as a complex issue, worthy of serious discussion.

Here's (I hope) a less-fraught analogy: someone posts, "I'm trying to help my daughter with her math homework. How do I explain to her that 2 + 2 = 5?"

Given this scenario, is it okay for me to post: "two plus two doesn't equal five and it never will!"? If so, how is this different than posting, "psychics are scam artists"?

That last question was a REAL question. I'm not trying to prove to you all that the two posts are worthy. I'm saying it's a complex issue, worth thinking about.

You could say, "Well, we all KNOW that two plus two doesn't equal five, but we don't all agree about psychics." Fair enough. Or is it? I personally KNOW that 2 + 2 don't equal five, and I also KNOW that all psychics are scam artist (or self-deluded). And I know both these things via similar thought processes.

I'm going to avoid a lengthy discourse about the meaning of "know," though it does enter the picture. But I will mention two things about the relationship between 2 + 2 = 5 and psychics:

1) there are many people (your average skeptic) who feel very strongly that there's little difference between those two statements. They are both false. Telling them they can't say psychics are frauds is like telling them they can't say 2 + 2 does not equal five. You're throwing these people into Bizzarro World.

2) There are many other people who feel the two statements are wildly different. These people are sure that 2 + 2 doesn't equal five, but they're less sure about psychics. Or they actively believe in psychic powers.

How do we reconcile these two world views? Or -- because they're probably not reconcilable -- how do we help these two sorts of people live in harmony?

The key point is that the two groups have two very different sets of FACTS about the world. I doubt it will do any good trying to persuade unixrat that some psychics might be genuine. And it will do him little good trying to persuade some others that all psychics are frauds. If we accept that both world views are set-in-stone, where does that leave us? Because that IS the state of the world. About many subjects, there are "atheists" and "believers" (and "agnostics"). There people rarely convince others of their views (though they certainly don't stop trying). Given that, what should we do?

Backing up, if someone DID ask, "How do I explain to my daughter that 2 + 2 = 5?", do we even allow "skeptics" in that thread? Should AskMe have an iron-clad policy of "either answer the question or stay silent -- don't EVER criticize the question"? Maybe.

If not, which questions are okay to critique? Ones that involve safety? ("Why kind of rat poison should I feed my kid?") Any others?

Is it about community standards? As someone who also lumps psycics with Nigerian scammers, I DO feel there's a difference. And it comes down to this: MeFi is mostly composed of web-savvy people. The majority of them agree that the Nigerian emails are scams. That's an accepted fact in this community. Whereas this community is more split over psychics.

I find Christianity equally silly as Scientology. But I'm more willing to openly mock Scientology, because it's less accepted -- way less accepted -- in the communities I'm part of. Maybe that's hypocrisy or cowardice. But I view it as a social necessity.
posted by grumblebee at 8:56 AM on August 22, 2007 [6 favorites]

Uri Geller spooned me.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:01 AM on August 22, 2007

Well said, grumblebee. I would expand on your answer by saying that there can be some reconciliation on the two world views, at least for purposes of answering the original question, by saying that even if you don't believe all psychics are con artists, at least some of them are and if you go to one, you should be aware of that fact.
posted by TedW at 9:06 AM on August 22, 2007 [1 favorite]

Really I'm not defending scam-artist "psychics", but I think the real problem here is people trying to lump everyone one might refer to as a "psychic" into one camp.

I read the poster's question as "Help me find a psychic who is not a predator or scam artist who can provide my friend with an interesting or entertaining experience for her birthday." Which is a completely answerable question, as many people make some sort of living (or just entertain themselves) by serving exactly this function. Some people are into crystals. Or angels. Or palmistry, or numerology, or astrology, or tea leaves or reading frigging entrails. And some of them take what they do very seriously because they really want to help people. Others have a great sense of humor about it and just want to show people a good time. Still others judge by your clothes and hair how much cash they think you might have on you and are determined to flense you of it.

I know how dangerous the scammy kind are, NYC is lousy with them. Which is why, if I wanted to provide such an experience for a friend under comfortable and safe circumstances, I'd possibly pose the question to others.

If you don't know enough about the question at hand to offer anything but a knee-jerk response, then you need to just back away slowly the way you came in. I've made the same sort of knee-jerk comments in other threads, which were usually deleted-- but you didn't see me coming in here to crow about it so everyone could see what a painted asshole I was.
posted by hermitosis at 9:15 AM on August 22, 2007

I didn't see the deleted responses, but I'm wondering if their only problem was that they were critical of psychic. Or were they also nasty?

To my mind, "When are you losers going to give up infantile beliefs in magic?" has no place an AskMe. But I'm less sure about, "I can't answer your question, but I feel I should point out that psychics are fraudulent. If I were you, I'd save my money for something that's less of a scam."

I'm wondering of jessamyn and the other mods feel about that second comment. Okay? Not okay? I'm torn. To me, it comes down to whether it's EVER okay to not-answer-a-question.
posted by grumblebee at 9:17 AM on August 22, 2007

Given this scenario, is it okay for me to post: "two plus two doesn't equal five and it never will!"? If so, how is this different than posting, "psychics are scam artists"?

Hermitosis is not a scam artist. The fact that some of them are scam artists doesn't mean that there are plenty of people who get some sort of reasonable return on their investment, to them. As vacapinta said

I dont believe in psychics nor do I believe in religion. But if someone asks me on the street if i know a good psychic nearby, I might point them to one that friends have visited. Likewise, if they ask for a good nearby Roman Catholic church, I can probably point them in the right direction.

Here are things I think are scams:

- the lottery
- capitalism
- health insurance
- much of organized religion
- most of the food in the modern supermarket
- febreeze
- toilet seat covers

By scam I mean that they take your money and promise to give you something they do not deliver. However, this is a debatable point. What TedW said

Many (most? all?) psychics rely on this sort of swindle for the bulk of their money and warning people of this fact ahead of time if they are planning to visit one is a valid answer.

is more along the lines of what a decent answer to the question might be, especially if it went to some decent link that the OP could read, didn't make fun of anyone, didn't say "well why don't you get her a freaking UNICORN then...?!?!?" [Ynoxas, I am looking in your direction] and, in short wasn't an ass about it. However, no one did that in that thread, no one. Most of your hypotheticals, grumblebee, are questions that wouldn't last in AskMe anyhow, so asking whether they can be critiqued is sort of a straw man.

The questions that come into MeTa in this way ("Why can't I make fun of this person?") usually involve

- the supernatural
- mental illnesses
- cultural relativism
- religion
- people with bad english skills or seemingly low IQs

Mocking people doesn't help them find answer and I'd argue that in many cases it doesn't help them understand the world better either. We've had the debate in MeTa before about whether ruthlessly making fun of people helps them learn. I don't think it does, but AskMe is not the testbed for that assertion in any case.

I don't think that psychics are in any way "genuine" in that they have some line-in to the future, but I do think that some people derive some value from them.

how do we help these two sorts of people live in harmony?

Part of living in harmony with others is understanding that there is a whole world full of people who believe different things than you do, many of which you feel are wrong in your heart of hearts. Some of those people you cross paths with in AskMe and part of being able to be a decent community member is learning to deal with those people respectfully and to leave them alone if you can't.
posted by jessamyn at 9:21 AM on August 22, 2007 [9 favorites]

Uri Geller spooned me.

Word has it you've done Randier things than that.
posted by cog_nate at 9:23 AM on August 22, 2007 [1 favorite]