How afraid should we be of publicizing MeFi Music covers? November 28, 2007 11:48 AM Subscribe
How afraid should we be of publicizing that Metafilter Music has some great covers?
I know we're sort of under the radar on MeFi Music covers, but if I had an opportunity to point out some of the good cover songs found on MeFi in a medium-profile place (relatively high as far as the web goes, low for humanity overall,) would that be a bad idea? I don't want to be responsible for, as Cortex once put it, cover holocaust, but it seems silly to put something on the web to enjoy and then try to keep it secret....
I know we're sort of under the radar on MeFi Music covers, but if I had an opportunity to point out some of the good cover songs found on MeFi in a medium-profile place (relatively high as far as the web goes, low for humanity overall,) would that be a bad idea? I don't want to be responsible for, as Cortex once put it, cover holocaust, but it seems silly to put something on the web to enjoy and then try to keep it secret....
I'm generally ok with it, since it's fairly low-use and it doesn't have a ton of visibility. I suspect in a worst case-scenario that an original songwriter would demand fees or cuts for every time it was played and I can't even estimate that (I don't have any logs of that). More likely, I suspect they'd ask me to take it down, which I would comply with.
I'm generally comfortable with the semi-legal situation as long as MeFi Music isn't totally overrun with cover songs.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:59 AM on November 28, 2007
I'm generally comfortable with the semi-legal situation as long as MeFi Music isn't totally overrun with cover songs.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:59 AM on November 28, 2007
What, incidentally, does one call something like this? Neither cover nor mash-up seems appropriate.
posted by Wolfdog at 12:06 PM on November 28, 2007
posted by Wolfdog at 12:06 PM on November 28, 2007
I'm generally ok with it, since it's fairly low-use and it doesn't have a ton of visibility
Well, that's what I'm saying. Are we supposed to avoid letting people know about it to maintain that low visibility?
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 12:08 PM on November 28, 2007
Well, that's what I'm saying. Are we supposed to avoid letting people know about it to maintain that low visibility?
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 12:08 PM on November 28, 2007
Great question. Do somebody believe there would be other things to worry about other than take--down notices?
And Wolfdog, that is some "killer metal song with samples of crazy yodeling" that you did. It's too long, isn't it? Still, one can't help but falling in love with it.
posted by micayetoca at 12:16 PM on November 28, 2007
And Wolfdog, that is some "killer metal song with samples of crazy yodeling" that you did. It's too long, isn't it? Still, one can't help but falling in love with it.
posted by micayetoca at 12:16 PM on November 28, 2007
Are we supposed to avoid letting people know about it to maintain that low visibility?
I think its a matter of scale. Decent-visibility blog traffic is probably not going to cause any problems. Front page of NYT might be a bit bumpier.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:21 PM on November 28, 2007
I think its a matter of scale. Decent-visibility blog traffic is probably not going to cause any problems. Front page of NYT might be a bit bumpier.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:21 PM on November 28, 2007
Well, I'll just say - no reason to be vague. There's a podcast called coverville, which plays song covers. It's a very VERY popular podcast, but still, it's only a podcast.
One of the features they have is that listeners basically can make "music quizzes" for the host (and the listener) to play along with. What I was hoping to do is put one together that would play short snippets from covers I found on MeFi Music, and the game would be to name the song and the original artist.
(as a side note, I would get permission in advance from the user who posted it to mefi music, and credit it properly as "performed by Fake Fakerson, who posts to Metafilter as mefiscreenname" (or whatever that user prefers), so that issue isn't in play for this question)
My concern is that it is, in a sense, an "ad" for MeFi Music, saying "check out some of the great covers I found there, and by the way, there's original music too!"
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 12:29 PM on November 28, 2007
One of the features they have is that listeners basically can make "music quizzes" for the host (and the listener) to play along with. What I was hoping to do is put one together that would play short snippets from covers I found on MeFi Music, and the game would be to name the song and the original artist.
(as a side note, I would get permission in advance from the user who posted it to mefi music, and credit it properly as "performed by Fake Fakerson, who posts to Metafilter as mefiscreenname" (or whatever that user prefers), so that issue isn't in play for this question)
My concern is that it is, in a sense, an "ad" for MeFi Music, saying "check out some of the great covers I found there, and by the way, there's original music too!"
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 12:29 PM on November 28, 2007
If I were you I'd talk to to the artist and see if they don't have it hosted somewhere else as well - or if they can arrange to. A lot of folks would, and you could point to it there.
posted by Wolfdog at 12:37 PM on November 28, 2007
posted by Wolfdog at 12:37 PM on November 28, 2007
If I were you I'd talk to to the artist
"Hello, Elvis, I'd like to cover Hounddog..."
posted by mattbucher at 12:46 PM on November 28, 2007
"Hello, Elvis, I'd like to cover Hounddog..."
posted by mattbucher at 12:46 PM on November 28, 2007
What, incidentally, does one call something like this?
Totally fucking awesome.
posted by maxwelton at 12:49 PM on November 28, 2007
Totally fucking awesome.
posted by maxwelton at 12:49 PM on November 28, 2007
Hey, coverville!
My instinct is this sounds like no big deal. Definitely check with the individual posters, but I doubt it'd cause problems for the site.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:54 PM on November 28, 2007
My instinct is this sounds like no big deal. Definitely check with the individual posters, but I doubt it'd cause problems for the site.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:54 PM on November 28, 2007
What, incidentally, does one call something like this?
Fuckin' excellent.
posted by soundofsuburbia at 12:59 PM on November 28, 2007
Fuckin' excellent.
posted by soundofsuburbia at 12:59 PM on November 28, 2007
Damn you, maxwelton!
mantra: Do not leave threads open and return to them when you've got an idea, use preview
posted by soundofsuburbia at 1:00 PM on November 28, 2007
mantra: Do not leave threads open and return to them when you've got an idea, use preview
posted by soundofsuburbia at 1:00 PM on November 28, 2007
My instinct is this sounds like no big deal. Definitely check with the individual posters, but I doubt it'd cause problems for the site.
Yeah, I was thinking the same. As for Wolfdog's suggestion, sure, that sounds good in theory, but in my head this is sort of an homage to my favorite place on the web (MeFi proper, not music specifically,) so i'd hate to lose that association.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 1:36 PM on November 28, 2007
Yeah, I was thinking the same. As for Wolfdog's suggestion, sure, that sounds good in theory, but in my head this is sort of an homage to my favorite place on the web (MeFi proper, not music specifically,) so i'd hate to lose that association.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 1:36 PM on November 28, 2007
Lucky for us, cover songs are covered by mandatory licensing. The artist doesn't get to set some outrageous rate after the fact.
posted by nomisxid at 2:00 PM on November 28, 2007
posted by nomisxid at 2:00 PM on November 28, 2007
Matt, just to make sure I'm reading you right you seem to have reversed your opinion on both covers and sampling then, yes? With the (totally understandable) caveat that if an artist/record company/etc. asks you to take something down you will.
posted by togdon at 2:06 PM on November 28, 2007
posted by togdon at 2:06 PM on November 28, 2007
The band I'm in had a song on coverville a few months back and it generated some traffic, but not a ton, so I can't imagine it would do any harm to MeFi Music.
I also think the general idea of a cover song available for free on the internet wouldn't do any harm as far as copyright. As Matt said, worst case scenario, he has to take it down. Then again, I can barely high jump over a bar, let alone pass one.
posted by sleepy pete at 2:33 PM on November 28, 2007
I also think the general idea of a cover song available for free on the internet wouldn't do any harm as far as copyright. As Matt said, worst case scenario, he has to take it down. Then again, I can barely high jump over a bar, let alone pass one.
posted by sleepy pete at 2:33 PM on November 28, 2007
sort of an homage to my favorite place on the web (MeFi proper, not music specifically,)
posted by John Kenneth Fisher
*menacing stare*
Now whaddaya mean, "not music specifically"?
posted by micayetoca at 2:38 PM on November 28, 2007
posted by John Kenneth Fisher
*menacing stare*
Now whaddaya mean, "not music specifically"?
posted by micayetoca at 2:38 PM on November 28, 2007
How afraid should we be of publicizing MeFi Music covers?
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
In court, no one can hear you scream.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 2:41 PM on November 28, 2007
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
In court, no one can hear you scream.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 2:41 PM on November 28, 2007
Lucky for us, cover songs are covered by mandatory licensing. The artist doesn't get to set some outrageous rate after the fact.
I'm guessing by "us" you mean music listeners as opposed to music creators? If so, I'd like to add that it's not a foregone conclusion that all or most "artists" would want to set "some outrageous rate" for the privilege of recording one of their songs. Matter of fact, plenty of artists are very happy indeed to have their songs covered. Don't be so quick to make musicians out to be the bad guys!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 2:47 PM on November 28, 2007
I'm guessing by "us" you mean music listeners as opposed to music creators? If so, I'd like to add that it's not a foregone conclusion that all or most "artists" would want to set "some outrageous rate" for the privilege of recording one of their songs. Matter of fact, plenty of artists are very happy indeed to have their songs covered. Don't be so quick to make musicians out to be the bad guys!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 2:47 PM on November 28, 2007
Now whaddaya mean, "not music specifically"?
I mean, I hate all of YOUR music, and that and that alone keeps me from liking MeFi music as much as I like MeFi Proper and AskMe. BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!! NOW I HAVE LEVERAGE OVER YOU, RATBRAIN!!!!
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 3:01 PM on November 28, 2007
I mean, I hate all of YOUR music, and that and that alone keeps me from liking MeFi music as much as I like MeFi Proper and AskMe. BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!! NOW I HAVE LEVERAGE OVER YOU, RATBRAIN!!!!
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 3:01 PM on November 28, 2007
Damn. Why did I asked?
posted by micayetoca at 3:05 PM on November 28, 2007
posted by micayetoca at 3:05 PM on November 28, 2007
Lucky for us, cover songs are covered by mandatory licensing. The artist doesn't get to set some outrageous rate after the fact.
yep, it's actually very reasonable -- if you want to have a legitimate cover version; ie, one you could legally resell commercially, you're looking at something like $75 for the right to distribute around 500 copies.
Here's an excerpt from harryfox.com, which covers mechanical licenses for distribution under 2500 units:
anyhow, the MORE YOU KNOW SWOOP *FLYING STAR* BLLLLAAING-DING.
the more you grow
AND THAT'S ONE TO GROW ON
posted by fishfucker at 3:38 PM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
yep, it's actually very reasonable -- if you want to have a legitimate cover version; ie, one you could legally resell commercially, you're looking at something like $75 for the right to distribute around 500 copies.
Here's an excerpt from harryfox.com, which covers mechanical licenses for distribution under 2500 units:
The current statutory mechanical royalty rate is $.091 (9.1 cents) per song per unit for recordings of compositions up to five minutes (5:00) in length.
For example, if one were to make a recording of a song that is less than five minutes in length (e.g. 4:07) and then manufacture and distribute 500 units of the recording, the total amount of royalties due would be $45.50. ($0.091 X 500 (units) = $45.50).
For songs over five minutes in length, the rate is based upon $.0175 (1.75 cents) per minute or fraction thereof as demonstrated below:
5:01 to 6:00 = $0.105 (6 X $.0175)
6:01 to 7:00 = $0.1225 (7 X $.0175)
7:01 to 8:00 = $0.14 (8 X $.0175)
For example, if one were to make a recording of a song that is six minutes and thirty-eight seconds in length (6:38) and then manufacture and distribute 500 units, the total amount of royalties due is $56.25. ($0.1225 X 500 (units) = $61.25).
anyhow, the MORE YOU KNOW SWOOP *FLYING STAR* BLLLLAAING-DING.
the more you grow
AND THAT'S ONE TO GROW ON
posted by fishfucker at 3:38 PM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
"Hello, Elvis, I'd like to cover Hounddog..."
"No problem, man. It's not as if I wrote the damn thing, got it from Big Mama Thornton".
I suppose there'll be a preview of these "best of" covers somewhere in mefi?
posted by ersatz at 4:08 PM on November 28, 2007
"No problem, man. It's not as if I wrote the damn thing, got it from Big Mama Thornton".
I suppose there'll be a preview of these "best of" covers somewhere in mefi?
posted by ersatz at 4:08 PM on November 28, 2007
Well, I know it's not the same as the external podcast, but meanwhile you could browse the cover tag.
posted by micayetoca at 4:47 PM on November 28, 2007
posted by micayetoca at 4:47 PM on November 28, 2007
Covers are fine, samples are fine. The more covers on MeFiMusic, the better. They're a great way to hear interpretations of songs we know and love by people not too different from us. You know, like how songs used to be: passed around, shared, sung by all, and not selfishly hoarded to yield a profit. As for samples, samples are instruments in themselves. Technology has allowed musicians to lift soundwaves from previously recorded work and manipulate them to create something new. Not allowing covers/samples is suppressing the range of creativity musicians can draw from. I can't believe we live in a day and age where artists sue fellow artists for covering/sampling/reinterpreting their material. Music was never about that.
posted by ageispolis at 6:16 PM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by ageispolis at 6:16 PM on November 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
Music was never about that.
posted by ageispolis
That guy in particular must have learned a lesson. I remember he lost that lawsuit, and then made a big fuzz afterwards saying that the Beastie Boys were counter suing him to get their lawyer fees back, and that he was in the risk of losing his life savings.
The Beastie Boys then released a statement saying that they were suing his lawyers, not him, as they thought the lawyers had been advising the guy irresponsibly and that their greed actually got this guy in all the trouble.
Still, he claimed in the suit that the sample they used (a three note progression in Pass The Mic, I believe) was actually the leitmotif, soul and bulk of the song. I remember that, the way it was written, it gave you the impression that he was claiming that the Beastie Boys wouldn't be the Beastie Boys without him.
posted by micayetoca at 6:51 PM on November 28, 2007
posted by ageispolis
That guy in particular must have learned a lesson. I remember he lost that lawsuit, and then made a big fuzz afterwards saying that the Beastie Boys were counter suing him to get their lawyer fees back, and that he was in the risk of losing his life savings.
The Beastie Boys then released a statement saying that they were suing his lawyers, not him, as they thought the lawyers had been advising the guy irresponsibly and that their greed actually got this guy in all the trouble.
Still, he claimed in the suit that the sample they used (a three note progression in Pass The Mic, I believe) was actually the leitmotif, soul and bulk of the song. I remember that, the way it was written, it gave you the impression that he was claiming that the Beastie Boys wouldn't be the Beastie Boys without him.
posted by micayetoca at 6:51 PM on November 28, 2007
Are there, on MeFi Music, covers of original songs originally posted to MeFi Music? Do y'all do the circle-jerk thing ever?
posted by carsonb at 8:21 PM on November 28, 2007
posted by carsonb at 8:21 PM on November 28, 2007
carsonb, it's not a circle-jerk thing. It's how good music propagates.
Also, I've posted songs to music before - (and I will again soon - recording a new album this weekend) - but I don't post covers for this very reason.
And it's kind of hard, because we're a bluegrass band.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:59 PM on November 28, 2007
Also, I've posted songs to music before - (and I will again soon - recording a new album this weekend) - but I don't post covers for this very reason.
And it's kind of hard, because we're a bluegrass band.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:59 PM on November 28, 2007
Wow... never checked out MeFi Music before (since I'm frequently reading on a handheld). Pretty cool.
posted by Jahaza at 12:54 AM on November 29, 2007
posted by Jahaza at 12:54 AM on November 29, 2007
Are there, on MeFi Music, covers of original songs originally posted to MeFi Music? Do y'all do the circle-jerk thing ever?
posted by carsonb
This is a cover of a song by buriednexttoyou who is a brilliant songwriter. He posted a demo of the song to MetaFilter Music and I covered it.
posted by micayetoca at 3:47 AM on November 29, 2007
posted by carsonb
This is a cover of a song by buriednexttoyou who is a brilliant songwriter. He posted a demo of the song to MetaFilter Music and I covered it.
posted by micayetoca at 3:47 AM on November 29, 2007
flapjax...: Be afraid. Be very afraid.
He's probably one of the people on the site with the most experience in this area, so we should probably listen to him.
My impression from talking with musicians and club owners about this topic is that it can very quickly become a cripplingly big deal, depending on how it's dealt with. I would like to think that Matt has defined a DMCA process and that probably provides some cover [sic], but my understanding is that won't be sufficient to protect the site if some large entity gets a bug up its butt about the covers.
posted by lodurr at 6:05 AM on November 29, 2007
He's probably one of the people on the site with the most experience in this area, so we should probably listen to him.
My impression from talking with musicians and club owners about this topic is that it can very quickly become a cripplingly big deal, depending on how it's dealt with. I would like to think that Matt has defined a DMCA process and that probably provides some cover [sic], but my understanding is that won't be sufficient to protect the site if some large entity gets a bug up its butt about the covers.
posted by lodurr at 6:05 AM on November 29, 2007
baby_balrog: carsonb, it's not a circle-jerk thing. It's how good music propagates.
Amen, and sadly so. It's a complex thing, and there's a dissertation or two to be written exploring how copyright puritanism affects the development and spread of new ideas in art.
posted by lodurr at 6:07 AM on November 29, 2007
Amen, and sadly so. It's a complex thing, and there's a dissertation or two to be written exploring how copyright puritanism affects the development and spread of new ideas in art.
posted by lodurr at 6:07 AM on November 29, 2007
Also, I've posted songs to music before - (and I will again soon - recording a new album this weekend)
posted by Baby_Balrog
I forgot to say this when I posted my previous comment, but that's great news. I really, really like your band, Baby_Balrog.
posted by micayetoca at 6:23 AM on November 29, 2007
posted by Baby_Balrog
I forgot to say this when I posted my previous comment, but that's great news. I really, really like your band, Baby_Balrog.
posted by micayetoca at 6:23 AM on November 29, 2007
mexican did a full band embellishment of a demo I posted; and a bunch of people recorded takes on Waltz #2 for a wedding-gift project I did for a friend.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:36 AM on November 29, 2007
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:36 AM on November 29, 2007
My impression from talking with musicians and club owners about this topic is that it can very quickly become a cripplingly big deal, depending on how it's dealt with.
Especially if someone is paying for a download of the cover song or a performance of it, which no one would be here (see fishfucker's NBC ad above for questions about payment). If this dude (or his estate if he's dead) wants to come in and bring down mefi music for this wonderful cover by chococat, then he probably could, conceivably, but I doubt he knows it exists even if it makes it on coverville. And worst case scenario, we have to take down the song/songs.
Seriously, I know that covers are a bad idea if you're selling them (or you're a bar and someone from ASCAP is spying on the radio/band playing), but I've never had trouble with doing covers and releasing them for free. In fact, some of the poeple that were covered wrote to say how much they liked it, so I think we're fine here in our little corner of the world.
Interesting idea, though, and I love the idea of having covers (and originals!) over there, so I say go for it, JKF.
posted by sleepy pete at 9:09 AM on November 29, 2007
Especially if someone is paying for a download of the cover song or a performance of it, which no one would be here (see fishfucker's NBC ad above for questions about payment). If this dude (or his estate if he's dead) wants to come in and bring down mefi music for this wonderful cover by chococat, then he probably could, conceivably, but I doubt he knows it exists even if it makes it on coverville. And worst case scenario, we have to take down the song/songs.
Seriously, I know that covers are a bad idea if you're selling them (or you're a bar and someone from ASCAP is spying on the radio/band playing), but I've never had trouble with doing covers and releasing them for free. In fact, some of the poeple that were covered wrote to say how much they liked it, so I think we're fine here in our little corner of the world.
Interesting idea, though, and I love the idea of having covers (and originals!) over there, so I say go for it, JKF.
posted by sleepy pete at 9:09 AM on November 29, 2007
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posted by CitrusFreak12 at 11:52 AM on November 28, 2007