Appropriation of well-researched links January 30, 2002 12:10 AM Subscribe
This irks me: I post this on Friday and today--Monday-- I find this via my show's counter. Now I better understand the phrase content provider.
Rant continued within.
Rant continued within.
Ah, well, I see from running their names, that rosecrans and andrew are familiar names here. Just not to me, blogger that I'm not. So, I guess I'm only mildy irked.
posted by y2karl at 12:30 AM on January 30, 2002
posted by y2karl at 12:30 AM on January 30, 2002
self-link: I did this a little while ago -- I hope I did it right. I'm all curious about the consensus on this now.
posted by j.edwards at 12:36 AM on January 30, 2002
posted by j.edwards at 12:36 AM on January 30, 2002
I really don't see any big deal here. The text that they wrote is what's copyrighted. They thanked you for pointing them in that direction. Incidentally your post here is © you, but I don't see any problems with what they've gone with from your post.
side note: I was talking to a friend the other night about this as she had received ashbery's book for christmas. I didn't know a thing about it before your post...thanks!
posted by modofo at 1:17 AM on January 30, 2002
side note: I was talking to a friend the other night about this as she had received ashbery's book for christmas. I didn't know a thing about it before your post...thanks!
posted by modofo at 1:17 AM on January 30, 2002
Thanks to Karl for pointing the way to these links.
They sure went out of their way to hide it, burying it in the text. But it is the Internet and they did build on y2karl's links. And give credit. Their presentation is very good. So everyone wins. And y2karl, knowing how much he contributed, should be rightly proud.
Darger doesn't belong to anyone and the links are out there. In fact his heirs - if he has any - would probably be the ones with a right to complain about the free availability of his work.
So if you like his stuff, I suppose you should be glad someone picked up on it. Why keep it a secret? Secrets have no place on the Internet and that's a very, very good thing.
Clever people everywhere read MetaFilter and we read the clever people - like these guys - that read us. We steal and improve. They steal and improve back.
Surely this is as things should be, Karl!
P.S. Though deontologically speaking, j.edward's style is beyond reproach and in every way admirable.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:25 AM on January 30, 2002
They sure went out of their way to hide it, burying it in the text. But it is the Internet and they did build on y2karl's links. And give credit. Their presentation is very good. So everyone wins. And y2karl, knowing how much he contributed, should be rightly proud.
Darger doesn't belong to anyone and the links are out there. In fact his heirs - if he has any - would probably be the ones with a right to complain about the free availability of his work.
So if you like his stuff, I suppose you should be glad someone picked up on it. Why keep it a secret? Secrets have no place on the Internet and that's a very, very good thing.
Clever people everywhere read MetaFilter and we read the clever people - like these guys - that read us. We steal and improve. They steal and improve back.
Surely this is as things should be, Karl!
P.S. Though deontologically speaking, j.edward's style is beyond reproach and in every way admirable.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:25 AM on January 30, 2002
I mostly agree, Miguel--boy, I'm up late and you're up early--but I would never have known to be proud had I not had a counter.
I much prefer j.edwards style. I put links in my notes but I've tried to steer clear of re-writing what I've read somewhere when I can link to it instead. I tried not to put myself so much between the post and the readers here.
That piece was well written enough but a little too snide and smarmy for my tastes--a little narcissism goes a very long way. As well I know...
posted by y2karl at 1:42 AM on January 30, 2002
I much prefer j.edwards style. I put links in my notes but I've tried to steer clear of re-writing what I've read somewhere when I can link to it instead. I tried not to put myself so much between the post and the readers here.
That piece was well written enough but a little too snide and smarmy for my tastes--a little narcissism goes a very long way. As well I know...
posted by y2karl at 1:42 AM on January 30, 2002
In fact his heirs - if he has any - would probably be the ones with a right to complain about the free availability of his work.
Ah, but he has none--which is the irony, considering all that has been made of his work, especially in terms of money. I should have liked to have pointed that out but I was conscious of the necessarily sound bite--word bite?--format here.
posted by y2karl at 1:52 AM on January 30, 2002
Ah, but he has none--which is the irony, considering all that has been made of his work, especially in terms of money. I should have liked to have pointed that out but I was conscious of the necessarily sound bite--word bite?--format here.
posted by y2karl at 1:52 AM on January 30, 2002
Well, they oughta buy you a couple of beers, at least, Karl. But I'd say Miguel et al. are right.
No harm, no fowl.
Heh.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:17 AM on January 30, 2002
No harm, no fowl.
Heh.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:17 AM on January 30, 2002
Karl - You wrote a good post on MetaFilter the other day, as mentioned here, and I enjoyed reading it; the links you provided were very helpful in my linking some thoughts together -- the imagery in a John Ashbery book I own -- and a show I'd heard about coming up at the Folk Art Museum in New York.
Those links, in turn, I thought valuable enough to share with our audience; hence the reason I thanked you specifically, and not MetaFilter, because it was your research that I benefitted from. I've often found links on MeFi that I've shared with my readers and pointing to MeFi is kind of like preaching to the converted. You'll notice also that not all of your links were included in what I wrote, nor none of what you actually had written about them; I was not trying to steal your ideas, but use some of your links and add some of my own. Feel free to e-mail me if you think I've poached on what you wrote and I'll be glad to correct the problem; I've had enough people steal our stuff to know how much it sucks.
posted by rosecrans at 4:44 AM on January 30, 2002
Those links, in turn, I thought valuable enough to share with our audience; hence the reason I thanked you specifically, and not MetaFilter, because it was your research that I benefitted from. I've often found links on MeFi that I've shared with my readers and pointing to MeFi is kind of like preaching to the converted. You'll notice also that not all of your links were included in what I wrote, nor none of what you actually had written about them; I was not trying to steal your ideas, but use some of your links and add some of my own. Feel free to e-mail me if you think I've poached on what you wrote and I'll be glad to correct the problem; I've had enough people steal our stuff to know how much it sucks.
posted by rosecrans at 4:44 AM on January 30, 2002
I wonder how many college students actually notified the people they quote in their term papers' and thesis papers' bibliography. How is this any different?
posted by crunchland at 4:59 AM on January 30, 2002
posted by crunchland at 4:59 AM on January 30, 2002
And beers!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:24 AM on January 30, 2002
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:24 AM on January 30, 2002
and drink on me to Miguel for a marvelous new word for my meta-expanding vocabularly : "deontologically - circa 1826 -from the theory or study of moral obligation. " Obrigado, Miguel.
posted by Voyageman at 5:30 AM on January 30, 2002
posted by Voyageman at 5:30 AM on January 30, 2002
hugs! beers! but please, no touching.
metafilter posts are Always echoed across the blogging universe, sometimes better than others. Anyone have the time to crunch some numbers? like, how many things posted here end up in members blogs soon thereafter? I don't have a blog, so i send out little emails to friends who don't read here, and they think i'm some sort of link bad-ass.
posted by th3ph17 at 6:32 AM on January 30, 2002
metafilter posts are Always echoed across the blogging universe, sometimes better than others. Anyone have the time to crunch some numbers? like, how many things posted here end up in members blogs soon thereafter? I don't have a blog, so i send out little emails to friends who don't read here, and they think i'm some sort of link bad-ass.
posted by th3ph17 at 6:32 AM on January 30, 2002
As do we all, th3ph17. As do we all.
posted by Optamystic at 6:37 AM on January 30, 2002
posted by Optamystic at 6:37 AM on January 30, 2002
It was a good post, Karl, but it's not like Darger is an unknown -- I assume a lot of people were familiar with him from Girls on the Run if not from his massive fame in the outsider art collector world. As you note, the fact that he had no heirs may well have contributed to this -- Nathan Lerner (the Chicago photographer who was Darger's landlord) claimed Darger's entire output, and -- with Darger paintings now going for tens of thousands of dollars -- did an excellent job of promoting Darger's work before his death in 1997; I remember reading an article a few years ago complaining about Lerner and some people writing scholarly work about Darger, basically saying that nobody should be simultaneously in a position as an artist's de facto executor and profiting from his reputation (which I think is bunk).
It's always nice to see one's diligence in finding the good links noted, though.
posted by snarkout at 7:48 AM on January 30, 2002
It's always nice to see one's diligence in finding the good links noted, though.
posted by snarkout at 7:48 AM on January 30, 2002
They sure went out of their way to hide it, burying it in the text.
I suppose that was what provided the irk--beyond that I have no cause for complaint. Fair is fair, since I posted this thread there while still in the heat of the moment (The speed and ease with which you can say things here is so firghtening). I'm just sorry I got pissed enough to use the word asshole when something like Miguel's deontologically speaking, j.edward's style is beyond reproach and in every way admirable, is so much more polite and elegant.
You know, when I was on Real9'scase, I went into varous user pages to try to compare--and ironically he was remarkably sensitive to percieved insults, by the way--plusses and minuses in comment content and tone. I just didn't have the time to wade through Miguel's Balzac-ian prodigistations but his must be be one of the most venom free user pages hereabout, as are dness2's and Carol Anne's, let it be noted. So thanks to all the well tempered here within, deontologically speaking, for pointing the way.
Obrigado--I don't have time to look it up but isn't there a Basque cognate to that?
posted by y2karl at 8:36 AM on January 30, 2002
I suppose that was what provided the irk--beyond that I have no cause for complaint. Fair is fair, since I posted this thread there while still in the heat of the moment (The speed and ease with which you can say things here is so firghtening). I'm just sorry I got pissed enough to use the word asshole when something like Miguel's deontologically speaking, j.edward's style is beyond reproach and in every way admirable, is so much more polite and elegant.
You know, when I was on Real9'scase, I went into varous user pages to try to compare--and ironically he was remarkably sensitive to percieved insults, by the way--plusses and minuses in comment content and tone. I just didn't have the time to wade through Miguel's Balzac-ian prodigistations but his must be be one of the most venom free user pages hereabout, as are dness2's and Carol Anne's, let it be noted. So thanks to all the well tempered here within, deontologically speaking, for pointing the way.
Obrigado--I don't have time to look it up but isn't there a Basque cognate to that?
posted by y2karl at 8:36 AM on January 30, 2002
so i send out little emails to friends who don't read here, and they think i'm some sort of link bad-ass.
*knowing giggle*
posted by ColdChef at 8:37 AM on January 30, 2002
*knowing giggle*
posted by ColdChef at 8:37 AM on January 30, 2002
You think I'm venom free? :) I play hockey; it purges a lot of ugly words. Sometimes I wish I could spew venom as artfully as some of you all can. You make it sound classy. Me, I'm nothing but a bunch of #'s and *'s when I'm angry.
posted by dness2 at 9:27 AM on January 30, 2002
posted by dness2 at 9:27 AM on January 30, 2002
so i send out little emails to friends who don't read here, and they think i'm some sort of link bad-ass.
I just wait until they send it me, and then say "Damn you! That link was on MeFi three whole months ago. Double post, you fuckwit!"
(ok, I made that last part up)
posted by walrus at 10:31 AM on January 30, 2002
I just wait until they send it me, and then say "Damn you! That link was on MeFi three whole months ago. Double post, you fuckwit!"
(ok, I made that last part up)
posted by walrus at 10:31 AM on January 30, 2002
You gotta love the WWW; believe me, y2Karl, you're not alone and you're definitely not the worst hit; here's my war story:
Last year, 'round this time, I worked this article for my company;
this year, as I was updating the site, I came across this.
Woo. I mean, at least write your own article, you know??
I guess all you can do is shrug it off and do that 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' thing.
posted by Perigee at 10:36 AM on January 31, 2002
Last year, 'round this time, I worked this article for my company;
this year, as I was updating the site, I came across this.
Woo. I mean, at least write your own article, you know??
I guess all you can do is shrug it off and do that 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' thing.
posted by Perigee at 10:36 AM on January 31, 2002
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I went to a lot of work on that post, spent some hours researching it and writing it here and in Word, and someone lifts or quotes my links, and doesn't even run it by me. At the least it's rather rude...
Thanks to Karl for pointing the way to these links.
Yeah, right. And thanks to Nedstat for telling me I did your free research, copyrighted pals. If I didn't have the counter, this would have probably slipped by me.
You know, I have another post I'm working on, one I've spent a lot of time on, and now I don't want to post it.
It's one thing to share it here on MetaFilter--and note they didn't give this place props at all--but I'm not doing it so some asshole can pad out his own free site without at least a proper link or attribution. But I suppose this happens a lot to people here, right?< /rant>
posted by y2karl at 12:11 AM on January 30, 2002