What the knife? February 8, 2010 2:04 PM Subscribe

I know theres a fair chance I'm going to get thrashed here...but this post makes me sad/angry. sandgry.

Anybody else...or am I the outlier here?

posted by hal_c_on to Etiquette/Policy at 2:04 PM (206 comments total)

This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- loup

I was wondering how long this call out would take...
posted by jefficator at 2:05 PM on February 8, 2010

If the TSA is security theatre, this is Security Jackass.
posted by 2bucksplus at 2:08 PM on February 8, 2010 [11 favorites]

I'm more angad about it myself.
posted by studentbaker at 2:08 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

It's a really odd question. It's not anonymous and the poster has all his identifying personal info on his profile. Either he's not too bright, looking to pick a fight with generally unhappy security staff, or his account information is fake and he's setting up someone else for trouble?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:09 PM on February 8, 2010

do what i do - FIAMO

maybe it would help if you listed what made you sandgry.

for me, i think the question is in poor taste and there to get views on his blog, via his profile - but even with that being the case, the reaction from the people answering is just not ok in ask me land.

a few minutes after FIAMO, about half of the answers were gone, so i feel pretty good about metafilter working the way it's supposed to.
posted by nadawi at 2:09 PM on February 8, 2010

I wouldn't want to thrash you, but I don't see what's wrong with just shaking our heads, rolling our eyes, and telling him that yes, he could get in trouble, or at least be put on the TSA multiple cavity-search list. Then move on with our lives.

It's not that MeTa space is too precious, but I don't see what's to be gained by hashing over a somewhat annoying question.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 2:09 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

Head shaking, yes. Sad and angry? No, not remotely. So yeah, outlier.
posted by Space Coyote at 2:10 PM on February 8, 2010

I was reading a book for an hour and came back to that question with its bazillion flags. I don't much like it, personally, but without all the "you suck!" comments that I just removed it is a question with an answer. mathowie made some minor edit to it [and I'm not sure what that was] so I was going to wait to hear from him before deleting it in case the question... used to be worse.

Also hal_c_on, your really weird comment about how "white people can get away with this sort of thing" wasn't really that helpful to the discussion.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:10 PM on February 8, 2010

I flagged it as "other" because there's no "what the hell?" option in the dropdown.
posted by Skot at 2:11 PM on February 8, 2010

The whole thing reminds me of the Domino's Pizza employees who posted the videos of themselves doing obviously Wrong Things, then were surprised to get fired when someone recognized them and what store they worked at.
posted by so_gracefully at 2:11 PM on February 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

Either he's not too bright, looking to pick a fight with generally unhappy security staff, or his account information is fake and he's setting up someone else for trouble?

Check his history on and off the site. I have no doubt that this is a real question, but I do doubt that it was accidental.
posted by mkb at 2:11 PM on February 8, 2010 [3 favorites]

I've got this total deja vu that someone has previously asked for a "what the hell?" flag and been rebuffed. If I'm wrong-- can we get one? That would be awesome.
posted by norm at 2:14 PM on February 8, 2010

I do doubt that it was accidental.

I could see accidentally bringing a knife through a carry-on, but making a video of that happening seems to confirm that doubt, for me.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:14 PM on February 8, 2010

hal_c - his blog is something in his profile. linking to profile information in metafilter isn't cool. linking to his blog directly gets him more views, thus feeding right into the reason he probably did this in the first place.

what are you trying to accomplish?
posted by nadawi at 2:14 PM on February 8, 2010

For those interested, Metatalk is only the third Google result for FIAMO. I think we can improve on this.
posted by nevercalm at 2:14 PM on February 8, 2010

[and even for people we may not personally like, we still don't link their profile page information from MeTa, please don't do that.]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:14 PM on February 8, 2010

Is it James O'Keefe?
posted by Artw at 2:15 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

I would also like to mention that when one inputs

You have to use escape characters and not preview for that to work. Also if you are using RANT tags in AskMe you are doing it wrong.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:16 PM on February 8, 2010 [5 favorites]

Where is the bad tattoo flag? You promised me!!
posted by Mister_A at 2:17 PM on February 8, 2010

I accidentally brought my swiss army knife in my carry-on on a recent trip. It had been there from a previous trip, when I'd checked the bag. This time, the knife made it through security at SFO, but not IAD. I am now down one pocket knife. Dammit.
posted by rtha at 2:17 PM on February 8, 2010

It's the ghost of Ted Kennedy, haunting the TSA for being on a no-fly list.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:17 PM on February 8, 2010

Wasn't there a guest on Colbert a couple years ago that did the same thing, and pulled out all of his contraband during the interview? I think he had written a book about it too.
posted by Think_Long at 2:18 PM on February 8, 2010

I just missed the thread closing but Jan Wong did this too FWIW.
posted by stinkycheese at 2:19 PM on February 8, 2010

I want a plasic knife.
posted by Eideteker at 2:19 PM on February 8, 2010

I thought he wanted to get in trouble (or attention) and didn't take it as a serious question. I mean, it's been done and everything. Boring and seeky...I couldn't even motivate myself to flag it, figuring a billion others would.
posted by batmonkey at 2:21 PM on February 8, 2010

When I read the question originally, I thought it was quite stunty. But having read his blog post on it, I now more get the impression that the AskMe was a badly thought out "oh shit I took a knife on a plane, and made a video and blog post" rather than a stunt. As if the thought process had asking to see if it could land him in trouble prioritised ahead of taking the post down to be on the safe side, not realising the reaction it would provoke on AskMe/MeTa.
posted by djgh at 2:21 PM on February 8, 2010

Sneak a plastic longsword or plastic trebuchet loaded with plastic flaming pitch on board and I'll be impressed.
posted by Mister_A at 2:22 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

but this post makes me sad/angry.

we'll hold a telethon for you. Seriously, when did someone's feelings become what dictates policy?
posted by jonmc at 2:22 PM on February 8, 2010 [4 favorites]

Are they plastic hulk fists?
posted by Mister_A at 2:24 PM on February 8, 2010

I think that's OK.
posted by Mister_A at 2:25 PM on February 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

Seriously, when did someone's feelings become what dictates policy?

Well, kind of all the time really. Why would you make a MeTa callout criticizing a post that caused you no negative emotional reaction? That doesn't really make sense. Obviously whether the mods choose to act on the reaction is a separate matter.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 2:26 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

Seriously, when did someone's feelings become what dictates policy?

Often, actually. However this time we're just deleting the question because it seems ill-placed. I guess the original post had the blog link it in [which is what mathowie removed] and that makes it even more of an offy question. I like glider, but this just isn't the good place for that question.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:29 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

nevercalm: "For those interested, Metatalk is only the third Google result for FIAMO. I think we can improve on this"

Now #2 with a bullet!
posted by Joe Beese at 2:31 PM on February 8, 2010

BTW, fully legit question and the answers and links that made it through before the too-sensitive deletion happened were appreciated and useful. Also, not a stunty act. I have several prescriptions that I have to take many times a day and use the knife, which I carry out of legitimate utility and really don't think about, to split the pills, among other things. Also, I video and photograph everything I do, and none of that is abnormal or traffic-seeking any more than my life in general.
posted by glider at 2:33 PM on February 8, 2010

Even though, yes, it technically had a real answer, I felt that this question was an abuse of ask.

This call fits the guideline (not rule) that governs metafilter: don't be a jerk. I have no problem with killing a post with meets the technical qualification of questionhood, but totally fails at the spiritual qualities of jerkitude.
posted by bonehead at 2:34 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

But having read his blog post on it, I now more get the impression that the AskMe was a badly thought out "oh shit I took a knife on a plane, and made a video and blog post" rather than a stunt.

Right. I think it certainly was a stunt, but now something that might seem like it was not a great idea.

Similar to a question that asked "I put photos of myself smoking a bong on a blog, can I be arrested for marijuana possesion?" I think a similar question was asked here once.
posted by smackfu at 2:36 PM on February 8, 2010

Also, I video and photograph everything I do, and none of that is abnormal or traffic-seeking any more than my life in general.

I was just going to assume that you were frankly not that bright, but it seems to be much, much deeper than that. What kind of person realizes they have a knife on them and then proceeds to film themselves obsessively playing with it in an airplane bathroom? Besides the 14-year-olds who hang out at the dungeon store in the mall, I mean.
posted by dhammond at 2:36 PM on February 8, 2010 [9 favorites]

Call it an abuse of ask if you want, but it was a legitimate question with a legitimate need, and the feedback I got on it was useful and appreciated.
posted by glider at 2:36 PM on February 8, 2010

Its not "feelings" that "dictates policy".

Umm, you're the one who posted about how the post made you feel, not whether it violated any policy or rule.
posted by jonmc at 2:41 PM on February 8, 2010

sixcolors was funnier.
posted by special-k at 2:46 PM on February 8, 2010 [8 favorites]

Hey glider -- I didn't see it as an abuse but the extra info you gave here [I take meds, I use this thing, I forgot about it, I always video myself] would have made your question seem a lot less strange. As it was, there were a few things that sort of taxed the realm of what people might expect (most people are not constantly shooting video, for example) with very little explanation leaving the more simple explanation [some sort of stunt] sort of hanging out there. Might be worth rephrasing for next week fi you're still concerned about it.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:47 PM on February 8, 2010

Look, everyone knows that security measures at the airport are just beautiful security theater. It is people like you who are trying to prove a point no one actually needs proved that makes getting through the airport such a goddamn hassle.

That's meerkatty in the deleted thread. The question looked like a brag about getting away with stupid thing. This would be no thing at all, except, as meerkatty points out so well, this sort of thing is used to justify making lots of other miserable by those in charge.

Look, it may not seem that big a deal to you, but I've been on the inside of too many security meetings to not know that even one stupid near miss can get blown out of all proportion. It many not seem like a big deal, it may not be a big deal, but The Man will make it into a big deal (to make certain of next year's funding, if nothing else).

The question could have really crappy consequences for your and for this site. So, yeah, it was a jerky thing to do, even if unintentional and innocent.
posted by bonehead at 2:48 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

Jessamyn - Thanks. The links that were posted, especially the Canadian law one, were very useful and I changed some of the wording in things that were posted to reflect the concerns.

Floam, lots of perfectly legal things can be used as weapons. I imagine that if I was the whacking sort, which I am not, I could do more damage to someone with my Kindle DX than with a letter opener. So to some extent all that is beside the point I think.
posted by glider at 2:52 PM on February 8, 2010

I'm still allowed to take my fists on board.

If I saw you making fists during the flight, I'd totally report you to the crew. Especially if you have a beard.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 2:55 PM on February 8, 2010

If you ever travel to the US, you might want to leave your knives in your luggage unless you want a federal judge to hand down a life sentence of riding Amtrak.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:01 PM on February 8, 2010

Trust me floam, there are many, many, many things on the net with my name on them that the average person would consider me a nutcase for. That ship has sailed.
posted by glider at 3:03 PM on February 8, 2010 [5 favorites]

hal_c_on: "sandgry"

Sangrias would be fantastic, thank you!
posted by boo_radley at 3:06 PM on February 8, 2010

i could go for a bellini with a sangria swirl.
posted by nadawi at 3:08 PM on February 8, 2010

the knife, which I carry out of legitimate utility and really don't think about

OK, I call shenanigans on this. That is not just some knife that you use for utilitarian purposes. That is specifically designed to not be picked up by metal detectors. Hell, that's why its a CIA Speedster model. That gives the name that extra bit of tactical coolness. It is not a practical knife, it doesn't have or keep a good edge for EDC use. That's why the damn thing is so cheap, its basically a throw away knife. It is not a utility knife. Stunts like what you pulled are what make people look at me strange because I carry a knife. It only has two purposes: as a concealed weapon, or to look cool like a concealed weapon. Although I guess that you've found a third use, stunty asshattery.
posted by anansi at 3:18 PM on February 8, 2010 [18 favorites]

What made it seem like an attention-seeking thing to me is that it wasn't anonymous.

Normally, someone who was genuinely concerned that they had done something illegal and afraid of the consequences wouldn't put it out there with all their identifying information and picture.

If he had posted that anonymously, I don't think anyone would have reacted to it hatefully.
posted by Ashley801 at 3:29 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

For those that think glider was being stunty simply for the purposes of traffic, keep in mind you're talking about someone who has a legitimate wikipedia entry under their name, started the Body Modification Ezine and is already rather famous for being an outlier even in the body modification scene. He's also no stranger to legal troubles and picking his battles be they pointless or otherwise. If I recall correctly he had a pretty big battle with obscenity charges in the US not that many years ago related to BMEzine's liberal use of often graphic photography, which is kind of hard to avoid if you're talking about and showing things like genital piercings.

The amount of extra traffic an AskMe would drive his way is negligible at best. If he just wanted a lot of attention I'm sure he has a lot of different and more effective options at his disposal.

I'm more surprised he didn't get pulled into secondary after setting off metal detector with body mods, which happens to most of my friends who have heavy bits of metal installed, but maybe he has less of that or they're plastic or organic hardware now.

I wonder what a couple of pieces of 00 gauge body jewelry look like on one of those newfangled body scanners? "Clear, please step through. Next. Next. Nex, err... OH SWEET CTHULHU WHAT IS THAT!?"
posted by loquacious at 3:38 PM on February 8, 2010 [5 favorites]

glider, I would be happy to mail you a plastic pill splitter that is a bit less conspicuous (similar). Please let me know if you'd like one.

hal_c_on: "If you are medication that needs to be cut in half, there is a good chance that you can opt for another pill right?"

It's the case for some (including myself) that pill-splitting is a way to save money: I get effectively 6 months of medication from a 3 month prescription for a certain kind of arthritis medicine.
posted by boo_radley at 3:38 PM on February 8, 2010

none of that is abnormal or traffic-seeking any more than my life in general.

Dude, I've seen you and the people you associate with, and I'm pretty sure most of the stuff you do in life in general is abnormal and traffic-seeking. This is just another spin on it, and you can swear up and down that it wasn't a stunt but it's pretty apparent to most that it was.
posted by dead cousin ted at 3:47 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

Honestly, if I needed advice on the other issues (pill splitters and pill dosages, asshattery, whether some ill-prepared terrorist is going to mug me for my dubious "knife", etc.), that's what I would have asked. I don't mind people that don't know the back story making incorrect assumptions and having been very public on the Net for 15+ years I'm used to it, but it is largely incorrect and largely a waste of time. I do appreciate the people who've provided useful and relevant information, which is what I was looking for. It was not posted anonymously because (a) I'm not an anonymous sort of person, (b) the anonymity had already been breached, and (c) I don't know how anonymous AskMefi posts really are anyway and I was under the impression that mods could break anonymity here (correct me if I'm wrong) which makes it useless anyway.
posted by glider at 3:54 PM on February 8, 2010

*jumps up and down on hal_c_ons feelings*
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:54 PM on February 8, 2010

glider photos every thing he does. Is there an abbreviation for that, maybe tmp?
posted by Cranberry at 3:58 PM on February 8, 2010

Dude, I've seen you and the people you associate with, and I'm pretty sure most of the stuff you do in life in general is abnormal and traffic-seeking. This is just another spin on it, and you can swear up and down that it wasn't a stunt but it's pretty apparent to most that it was.

As a person who associates with people who associate with glider (and have for many many years) I think this is uncalled for. Plus, didn't we just go through a whole mess of discussion about "abnormal", "aberrant" etc in Flunkie's thread further down the gray?
posted by nursegracer at 4:02 PM on February 8, 2010 [3 favorites]

The amount of extra traffic an AskMe would drive his way is negligible at best.

Think big. Stuff like this ends up on Drudge all the time.
posted by dhammond at 4:02 PM on February 8, 2010

glider: "Honestly, if I needed advice on the other issues"

Is that a no on the pill-splitter then?
posted by boo_radley at 4:07 PM on February 8, 2010 [3 favorites]

Hey, now that this is deleted can we talk about the facials-cum-chatfilter question?
posted by carsonb at 4:20 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

I don't know how anonymous AskMefi posts really are anyway and I was under the impression that mods could break anonymity here

It depends on your definition of "mods" and "anonymity".

There is no information stored in the database that links a particular user with a particular question, but some mods are aware of who has made anonymous questions (via an email along the lines of "glider has submitted an anonymous question"), although the process of figuring this out is time-consuming and they don't particularly care and intentionally avoid checking those emails unless a problem is discovered.

Since these emails are (presumably) unencrypted, then theoretically the questions pseudo-anonymous (a nefarious agent could intercept the email stream and thus would have, say, a list of 8-9 usernames to match up to the 5-6 anonymous questions that are accepted). Practically, questions are as anonymous as they need to be, considering it's a bad idea to discuss criminal activity on any forum.
posted by muddgirl at 4:21 PM on February 8, 2010

Hey, now that this is deleted can we talk about the facials-cum-chatfilter question?

*shudders*
posted by scody at 4:21 PM on February 8, 2010

(c) I don't know how anonymous AskMefi posts really are anyway and I was under the impression that mods could break anonymity here (correct me if I'm wrong) which makes it useless anyway.

They're completely anonymous to everyone but the mods, who I believe can identify you if they really want to.
posted by zarq at 4:23 PM on February 8, 2010

And furthermore, if a user does not trust mathowie or the other moderators, they shouldn't be making any posts here. I believe it's relatively trivial for them to edit or delete comments and posts at-will, and we only have our faith in their ethics to ensure that they don't.
posted by muddgirl at 4:25 PM on February 8, 2010

Hey, now that this is deleted can we talk about the facials-cum-chatfilter question?

That deserves it's own meta thread, sorry.
posted by dead cousin ted at 4:27 PM on February 8, 2010

They're completely anonymous to everyone but the mods, who I believe can identify you if they really want to.

Thanks for verifying my assumption.

This means that the posts are not really anonymous. We've seen many, many cases where mods of various sites have breached anonymity and privacy of members in a variety of ways.

More importantly, if the mods can breach anonymity, then this raises legal concerns for the site if someone posts about something that ends up getting investigated ("show us your log files/etc"). Non-anonymous posts or unbreakable anonymity does not have this problem to the same degree.
posted by glider at 4:28 PM on February 8, 2010

And furthermore, if a user does not trust mathowie or the other moderators, they shouldn't be making any posts here.

I'd say that's a step more paranoid than having concerns about the degree of anonymity being offered!
posted by glider at 4:29 PM on February 8, 2010

Honestly, if I needed advice on the other issues

You were asking if carrying a knife through airport security is illegal, a knife designed specifically to get past airport security, and you noted filming the use of said knife once past security. Can you honestly not see how reasonable people would determine this to be a stunt, as you wrote your post?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:33 PM on February 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

More importantly, if the mods can breach anonymity, then this raises legal concerns for the site if someone posts about something that ends up getting investigated

This is one of the main reasons we prefer to not field anonymous questions about suicide, revenge or "help me break the law" questions. We're aware that anonymous means more like "masked" and we go to some lengths to make that clear.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:33 PM on February 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

sixcolors was so much better, because at least her questions were real questions from her life. They were weird, but a little weirdness is good for the planet. She got answers, and we got to think a bit. She's MeFi's Osaka, and I mean that in the very nicest way possible.

This person just said, "HEY GUYS I DID SOMETHING ALL THE SIGNS SAY ARE ILLEGAL! Did I do something wrong, tee hee?" It's like making a thread where you say, "After tuning up my PT Cruiser, I was able to go 0 to 60 in 6 seconds in a school zone. All the signs said SPEED LIMIT 25. Am I liable for a ticket?"
posted by mccarty.tim at 4:36 PM on February 8, 2010 [5 favorites]

There is no information stored in the database that links a particular user with a particular question

Actually, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is a a link between anon questions and users, that's how the mods can look up who posted anon questions. As far as I know, they rarely if ever actually take advantage of that and are pretty much opposed to doing so.
posted by dead cousin ted at 4:39 PM on February 8, 2010

"After tuning up my PT Cruiser, I was able to go 0 to 60 in 6 seconds in a school zone. All the signs said SPEED LIMIT 25. Am I liable for a ticket?"

No, but you are liable for driving the vehicular equivalent of Mom Jeans.
posted by scody at 4:40 PM on February 8, 2010 [14 favorites]

Can you honestly not see how reasonable people would determine this to be a stunt, as you wrote your post?

I think what you're not understanding is that's irrelevant to me, other than it affecting the way that personal prejudices affect the way that the law or lack thereof is applied. For example, today someone almost smashed into me with their bourgeois luxury SUV, but because I drive a dirty jacked up baby monster truck with mud-racing tires and a big winged skull on the side, a busy-body followed me home and called the police. I am aware of how appearances change the events surrounding a person, and don't need to be informed on that issue. But I understand that it makes many people feel more grounded in their own less stunty nature to do so, and that doesn't bother me.

* Luckily the police, who showed up at my door a little later, are often of the character type that likes baby monster trucks and were thus not affected by the same prejudices as the person who called 911. In fact, they already had pictures on their phones of my truck that they had taken as fans thereof weeks ago, and just seemed happy to have an excuse to take a closer look at it, so it was a very pleasant encounter.
posted by glider at 4:50 PM on February 8, 2010

Most people, when accused of pulling a stunt, don't reply with "I HAVE A MONSTER TRUCK WITH A SKULL ON IT."
posted by dhammond at 4:54 PM on February 8, 2010 [31 favorites]

Dude, I've seen you and the people you associate with, and I'm pretty sure most of the stuff you do in life in general is abnormal and traffic-seeking. This is just another spin on it, and you can swear up and down that it wasn't a stunt but it's pretty apparent to most that it was.

Huh. You sound like you're about to launch into a tirade against dirty hippies or commies. Regardless, this comes off really assholish.
posted by desuetude at 4:55 PM on February 8, 2010

glider, my apologies for my cynicism (and urge to vent it).

i am now interested in seeing a treatment on using a Kindle as a weapon. i'm a peaceful person. it just seems surreal enough to explore a bit more (fictionally/satirically, of course). item of knowledge and entertainment, used violently. pen/sword analogies falling all around.
posted by batmonkey at 4:57 PM on February 8, 2010

Bringing a knife on a plane compromised everyone's security. You still don't understand that, do you? Idiot.

No, I don't buy your proposition that someone might choose to mug me on the plane, search me well enough to realize I have something pointy, and then use that to somehow compromise everyone's security. Give me a break. You really think that's how terrorism works? It's paranoid fear-mongering nut-cases like you that give us these bizarre and ineffective laws. Nothing I did put the other passengers at risk. The absolute worst case that I can think of is that some mental midget screener decides to ground a bunch of planes because they think the same way you do and make insane assumptions and run from shadows.

A metal-bodied pen would be an equally dangerous and far more accessible weapon in your kooky scenario.
posted by glider at 4:58 PM on February 8, 2010 [5 favorites]

that's irrelevant to me

I think this clarifies everything you've said and done so far, for me. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:00 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

glider: "You really think that's how terrorism works?"

You may be misunderstanding the nature of his proposition entirely, and his proposition may be perfectly in line with the opinion you expressed than not.
posted by boo_radley at 5:01 PM on February 8, 2010

I don't think that you endangered people. But you were tossing gas on a fire for the hell of it. You knew that you had the knife. You knew that it was illegal. What's the point? Is it some sort of sophmoric, "ooh, I can break the rule, 'cause I think its stupid" sort of thing? Why provoke shit when there is nothing to be gained (except for attention). You're not gonna change laws with this stunt. You're not gonna highlight the absurdity of security theater to anyone who doesn't already think this way. The best that you can do with this stunt is get people to look at you. If mere attention whoredom is your goal, then just cop to it and quit with the coy bullshit. If you really thought that you were making some sort of statement . . . then you really need to rethink your goals.
posted by anansi at 5:05 PM on February 8, 2010 [3 favorites]

A metal-bodied pen would be an equally dangerous and far more accessible weapon in your kooky scenario

That's actually true. Its a shit knife. Its also a really bad pill cutting tool. You could have used a pen for the pill breaking. Once again, this points to the whole stunty, "lets see if I can do this" attitude.
posted by anansi at 5:07 PM on February 8, 2010

No one thinks that's how terrorism works. SO WHAT. What good can come from your "Look at this plastic knife I took on a plane"? Because, as has been pointed out several times, we live in a time of ridiculous security theater. The best response you'll get to your video is "huh, that was kind of dumb". More likely, Drudge or some other moron will pick it up and now everyone flying will have to be full-body searched because they're probably all carrying a semisharp plastic knife. So thanks, asshole.
posted by graventy at 5:08 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

More likely, Drudge or some other moron will pick it up and now everyone flying will have to be full-body searched because they're probably all carrying a semisharp plastic knife.

And this is my fault, or this is the fault of the system your elected government has created with your blessing?
posted by glider at 5:12 PM on February 8, 2010

I mean really, am I, a foreigner, that powerful that I control the silliness of the US government moreso than the US electorate? I have trouble buying that.
posted by glider at 5:13 PM on February 8, 2010

glider: "And this is my fault, or this is the fault of the system your elected government has created with your blessing?"

Again, you are focusing on the wrong details. Contemplate. Go slowly. At the very least, ask yourself, in response to your own question, "Whose knife was it?"
posted by boo_radley at 5:14 PM on February 8, 2010 [3 favorites]

Yes, yes, and she was wearing a mini-skirt, I get it.
posted by glider at 5:17 PM on February 8, 2010

Are you guys trying to be my worst nightmare MeTa thread? I was just thinking "well at least it's not rapey!"
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:18 PM on February 8, 2010 [19 favorites]

You guys would be better served watching Stevie Wonder on Sesame Street than you would be carrying on this silly argument.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:19 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

I do appreciate the people who've provided useful and relevant information, which is what I was looking for

Even giving you the benefit of the doubt about accidentally carrying a knife through security that just happens to be a plastic knife that metal detectors can't detect (I know a lot of people who carry knives with them all the time, and none of them use plastic ones), it's pretty clear from your blog post and your YouTube comments that the point of posting your video is to show how ineffective airport security is. It seems like if you were really concerned about the legal ramifications of accidentally videotaping yourself committing a crime, you would have asked about it before making the blog post and uploading it to YouTube. Instead it seems like you are trying to use MetaFilter as a way to get your message out to more people.

Obviously I don't know you or your motivations, but that's what it seems like to me.
posted by burnmp3s at 5:21 PM on February 8, 2010 [3 favorites]

Splendid, glider (aside from the unneeded rape analogy). Now keep going a bit.
posted by boo_radley at 5:24 PM on February 8, 2010

Ice Cube - Doing Dumb Shit. It's too bad Cube never performed this song (or perhaps one of those 'Gangsta's Fairytale' songs) on Sesame Street.
posted by box at 5:29 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

Close and time out please
posted by wheelieman at 5:35 PM on February 8, 2010

Pass the mashed potatoes please
posted by carsonb at 5:37 PM on February 8, 2010

hal_c_on, I think you may be an even bigger stereotype than you assume I am. I feel like I can predict every nuance of your thought process.
posted by glider at 5:39 PM on February 8, 2010

Either take this to MeMail guys, or drop it.
posted by wheelieman at 5:46 PM on February 8, 2010

wow guys, we're really bringing out the best of ourselves tonight.
posted by Think_Long at 5:46 PM on February 8, 2010

/me slams the blade down, snatches the cash, and strides out of the room, whistling*
posted by carsonb at 5:48 PM on February 8, 2010

I see someone's played Knifey-Spoony before.
posted by panboi at 5:49 PM on February 8, 2010 [10 favorites]

glider: " I have several prescriptions that I have to take many times a day and use the knife, which I carry out of legitimate utility and really don't think about, to split the pills, among other things."

There are other, more legal implements to use, such as a pill splitter. Also, in moments of dire need with no other option around, I have split small scored pills using fingernail clippers. Really, splitting pills is no excuse for carrying a knife on a plane.
posted by IndigoRain at 5:49 PM on February 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

That's not a knife, that's a spoon.

on preview: curse you, panboi
posted by scody at 5:51 PM on February 8, 2010

Never bring a spoon to a knife fight.
posted by Babblesort at 5:52 PM on February 8, 2010

SPOOOOOooooooooooooooooooon!!!
posted by Think_Long at 6:01 PM on February 8, 2010

There is no spoon.
posted by Babblesort at 6:01 PM on February 8, 2010

Nobody's even mentioned that the knife could have grounded the plane for hours or caused an emergency landing either.
posted by IndigoRain at 6:02 PM on February 8, 2010 [2 favorites]

I smuggled a declawed cat onto a plane and now I think it's cheating on me, can I eat it?
posted by turgid dahlia at 6:03 PM on February 8, 2010 [35 favorites]

IndigoRain, I did mention that up above and I think that's the most (and perhaps only) valid complaint that has been raised. That said, I do not believe that it would have happened. 99% sure they would ask me to either hand it over or place it in checked luggage.
posted by glider at 6:09 PM on February 8, 2010

If only there was a way to split pills before leaving for the airport.
posted by ChuqD at 6:11 PM on February 8, 2010 [4 favorites]

But glider would still need the knife so he could open mail. That he receives while traveling. Out of town. (Opening mail is, like, really difficult without a knife, people.)
posted by dhammond at 6:18 PM on February 8, 2010 [3 favorites]

even e-mail?
posted by jonmc at 6:19 PM on February 8, 2010

Pallet cleanser
posted by The Whelk at 6:22 PM on February 8, 2010

Motherfucking knives on a motherfucking plane.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:28 PM on February 8, 2010

MetaFilter: Well At Least It's Not Rapey!
posted by Mister_A at 6:47 PM on February 8, 2010

I mean really, am I, a foreigner, that powerful that I control the silliness of the US government moreso than the US electorate? I have trouble buying that.

You went to all this trouble to poke fun at the U.S. government when you've got Steven Harper where you live?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:02 PM on February 8, 2010 [5 favorites]

CONTINENTAL WAR!
posted by Think_Long at 7:08 PM on February 8, 2010

You went to all this trouble to poke fun at the U.S. government when you've got Steven Harper where you live?

Touché. Perhaps that is my fault for voting Marijuana Party from time to time. That said, in any election where the race makes my vote relevant, I vote NDP and for most of my voting life have thankfully lived in NDP ridings.
posted by glider at 7:09 PM on February 8, 2010

First we take Thunder Bay. It's strategically located, and within driving distance from my apartment.
posted by Think_Long at 7:11 PM on February 8, 2010

I'm not saying he's a troll, but his comments strongly correlate with trolling. Perhaps it's just an unfortunate coincidence :(
posted by ryanrs at 7:38 PM on February 8, 2010

Actually, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is a a link between anon questions and users, that's how the mods can look up who posted anon questions. As far as I know, they rarely if ever actually take advantage of that and are pretty much opposed to doing so.

I'm not going to dig up all of jessamyn's comments on this matter, and I doubt she wants to hang out in this thread anymore, but it's been made pretty clear to me that the Metafilter database intentionally does not store information about which users post Anonymous questions. Otherwise they could, for example, easily close the loophole that allows someone to post an anonymous AskMe followed by a non-anonymous AskMe in the same week.

This is pretty clearly laid out in the Mefi FAQ:

Your posting is not linked to your username in any way once it goes up on the site, though the admins may know who posted the question.

posted by muddgirl at 8:09 PM on February 8, 2010

the absolute worst case that I can think of is that some mental midget screener decides to ground a bunch of planes

I'm sure that the people who would missed meetings/job interviews/time with loved ones/whatever because of this would have been totally amused.
posted by naoko at 8:19 PM on February 8, 2010 [3 favorites]

floam That thing has some serious stabbing-people-to-death potential and you're fucking nuts to not have deleted that video by now.

It is pretty clear that glider does not give a fuck. When you modify your body like he has you are sending a pretty clear signal that is costly to fake, kind of like these guys.
posted by mlis at 8:53 PM on February 8, 2010

No, I don't buy your proposition that someone might choose to mug me on the plane, search me well enough to realize I have something pointy, and then use that to somehow compromise everyone's security.

i don't buy your proposition that you're so obviously harmless and righteous an individual that you shouldn't be held accountable by the same rules that everyone else has to follow

your attitude reeks with privilege, and delusional privilege at that
posted by pyramid termite at 9:10 PM on February 8, 2010 [11 favorites]

I don't know how many of you are aware that the person with whom you're arguing, glider, is this guy. That's him on the table getting his eyeball tattooed.

Glider is the epitome of why arguing on the Internet is a sucker's game. He's not a troll, he's just someone who's dedicated his life to viewpoints and ideas that are *ahem* alternative. The implicit assumption that you share some common ground with him that discussion and rational argument can illuminate is wrong.
posted by fatbird at 11:24 PM on February 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

If this was Star Trek, this guy would be an alien life form that feeds on the TSA's own stupidity: "Captain! It's draining stupidity directly from the warp power conduits! I can't compensate, the reactor's going into overload!"

So knock it off guy, before you trigger a cascade stupidity meltdown and contaminate half the sector.
posted by ryanrs at 1:00 AM on February 9, 2010

Actually, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is a a link between anon questions and users

I was under the impression that mods could break anonymity here

Since these emails are (presumably) unencrypted, then theoretically the questions pseudo-anonymous

They're completely anonymous to everyone but the mods, who I believe can identify you

It's like watching laypeople interpret scripture.

It's not a matter of belief. We don't need to speculate WWJessamynD; she walks among us.
posted by Sallyfur at 1:01 AM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

Nobody's even mentioned that the knife could have grounded the plane for hours or caused an emergency landing either.
posted by IndigoRain at 9:02 PM on February 8 [1 favorite +] [!]

IndigoRain, I did mention that up above and I think that's the most (and perhaps only) valid complaint that has been raised.

ok, this is a step in the right direction - you agree that doing something that could seriously mess up the travel plans of a whole bunch of other people is a shitty thing to do - now step back and take a longer view on that - if your actions lead to further increases in the security measures that we all have to deal with, as bonehead pointed out earlier:

this sort of thing is used to justify making lots of other miserable by those in charge.

Look, it may not seem that big a deal to you, but I've been on the inside of too many security meetings to not know that even one stupid near miss can get blown out of all proportion. It many not seem like a big deal, it may not be a big deal, but The Man will make it into a big deal (to make certain of next year's funding, if nothing else).

then you are potentially making millions of other people's lives just that bit more frustrating.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:17 AM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

Your posting is not linked to your username in any way once it goes up on the site, though the admins may know who posted the question.

that's a really weird way of posting that, and I believe I am still correct. That statement says "you're post isn't linked to your username, but the admins still know who you are". Again, I believe you are incorrect.
posted by dead cousin ted at 1:24 AM on February 9, 2010

there was supposed to be some quotes up there. i'm still right though
posted by dead cousin ted at 1:29 AM on February 9, 2010

There is some truth in fatbird's comment. To a large degree, the feedback here, especially the particularly ridiculous and pro-Bush-era-thinking comments from hal_c_on, are emphasizing that the problems with security are not in fact limited to the TSA and other blundering government groups, but in reality are directly the fault of an overreacting populace that is complicit in their actions.
posted by glider at 4:25 AM on February 9, 2010

Look, it may not seem that big a deal to you, but I've been on the inside of too many security meetings to not know that even one stupid near miss can get blown out of all proportion. It many not seem like a big deal, it may not be a big deal, but The Man will make it into a big deal (to make certain of next year's funding, if nothing else).

then you are potentially making millions of other people's lives just that bit more frustrating.

No, the guy that's sitting in the meeting, allowing it to happen, is the one at fault. That's the point. It's not the fault of people who do things that are incorrectly interpreted as dangerous, it's the fault of people who build ineffective and missed-the-point policy.
posted by glider at 4:37 AM on February 9, 2010

Incorrect about what, dead cousin ted?

Here is a very freaking recent discussion where Jessamyn talks about the email she receives.

The text of the question, any text, is not in the email we receive. There is not even a link to a specific question, just a link to a page where all the questions are. If you are uncomfortable with the fact that there is evidence in my email that you have asked an anonymous question, please do not use the AnonyMe feature.

Here is where cortex explicitely states

not only are questions anonymous to the world, they're also anonymous to the db which means there's a bit more security on that front even if the db was somehow compromised. (If the db AND Matt's email were compromised at the same time by the same person who wanted to put anonymous submissions to names, that'd be a problem for anonymity but it'd be a problem for a giant catastrophic pile of other things too.)

I don't know which assertations you believe are wrong. For me, this level of separation between username and question is enough to trust using Anonymous AskMetafilter (although I don't think I ever have). There is no database record. The FBI could subpoena the database and the email record, at which point they would know that (a) I submitted an Anonymous askme at 10:31am email server time and (b) a bunch of Anonymous questions were posted at, say, 12pm metafilter server time. With no link between my username and any specific question. Heck, my question could sit in the queue for days and days, meaning the email server time would have no relevance to when a question was posted to the front page.
posted by muddgirl at 7:04 AM on February 9, 2010

hal_c_on starting a vaguely-worded MeTa thread and egging on the drama? Color me shocked.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:30 AM on February 9, 2010

I agree that the FAQ is not very clear on this point ("the admins may know who posted the question"). I don't think that "may know" is quite right. "Can know" more properly reflects what is happening here. If they want to find out, they can find out.

Last time this came up, they said they wanted to keep the FAQ wording simple but I still don't think it's useful, since it's come up yet again.
posted by smackfu at 7:34 AM on February 9, 2010

Well, we have to balance being clear enough with having the FAQ not be a long gobbledygook of qualifications. Our basic feeling is that there are two main points

1. the db does not contain an explicit link between username and anonymous questions asked
2. humans could figure out the link, given all the data the db has available. Without going through a lot of extra work, we don't know who asked.

If that degree of anonymity is not enough for you, we think you shouldn't use this feature. The anonyme Ask A Question page says explicitly that mods can ascertain who has asked a question.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:44 AM on February 9, 2010

I changed the faq to be slightly more clear:

"When you use the anonymous posting form, your question goes into a queue that is only read by the admins. Your posting is not linked to your username in any way in the MetaFilter database. Questions are posted through an Anonymous user account, though the admins can ascertain who posted the question if they need to. There is no mechanism for following up anonymously though the admins will post a follow-up comment to an anonymous question, as will many other MeFi users. Sometimes people set up disposable email accounts so they can be contacted about an anonymous posting. This feature is not intended to provide absolute anonymity, please do not use it if that is what you require."
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:54 AM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

i am now interested in seeing a treatment on using a Kindle as a weapon.

Pfft. That new fangled reading device doesn't stand a chance against Jason Bourne and a book or rolled-up magazine as an effective weapon.
posted by ericb at 8:07 AM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

It's not the fault of people who do things that are incorrectly interpreted as dangerous, it's the fault of people who build ineffective and missed-the-point policy.

Well, you sure showed them, huh? Jesus, let's stop feeding this guy.
posted by Skot at 8:15 AM on February 9, 2010 [4 favorites]

It's not my fault that some people like to blow themselves up in crowded spaces. I should be able to wear my dynamite jacket in peace without The Man hassling me.

Welcome to the gun rights debate. Do we build our cultural permissiveness around the actions of decent people or do we build it around the actions of criminals and religious nuts? Do we treat everyone as criminals/terrorists or do we treat everyone as decent? Sadly we largely do the former, and move more and more that way every day... and it's clear from the commentary that as much as people understand that it's ineffective "theatre", that they still half-heartedly support it.

And yes, I do agree that you should be able to wear your dynamite jacket in peace. Doesn't bother me one bit.
posted by glider at 8:23 AM on February 9, 2010

"To be honest, I don't care if I'm categorized as "wrong" by you or not. Bringing a knife on a plane compromised everyone's security.

You still don't understand that, do you?""

No, it really didn't, and you're acting like a hysterical ninny. Videotaping was dumb, but prosecuting Glider's about as likely to happen as a security breach resulting from his bringing a knife.

C'mon. The only real case you can make is an absolutist one, which requires that we all fly naked after full cavity searches, because otherwise somebody somehow might be compromising our security in a totally negligible manner.
posted by klangklangston at 8:25 AM on February 9, 2010

Why are you focusing your attention on AMERICAN policy, when you have problems of your own in your OWN country?

American policy on this subject affects Canada and it's completely valid for Canadians as well as people from all nations to speak up on it. It's not as if America is an isolationist nation that doesn't work very hard to make other countries follow its policies.

America has invaded other nations on the premise that their own citizens are unable or unwilling to institute the change that America believes they need. I don't think a few words or videos critical of policy pushed for by the US is crossing the same sorts of ethical lines that the elected democratic government of the US does every day, under both Republican and Democrat governments, with broad public support.

And in any case, I have a long, practically career, history of activism inside Canada and don't need to be lectured that I should do more before picking on the oh-so-vulnerable USA.
posted by glider at 8:34 AM on February 9, 2010

In this situation, it's not security that could have been compromised, but rather convenience and/or timely arrival at destination.

I'll concede that this is possible, but it's LONG SHOT possible. If they had noticed it, they would have asked me to either hand it over or put it in checked baggage, and that would have been the end of it. No one in their right mind would have locked down the airport or cancelled flights over it.

And if they did, the system is such a mess that it probably would do it some good to have this lunacy hit the media later that day!
posted by glider at 8:38 AM on February 9, 2010

Unless you are prepared to get caught with the knife, challenge the charges in court, appeal as much as you can and get as much popular notice, then that is not activism.

Of course I would be prepared to do so, as I would with any unjust prosecution! I have to wonder who woudln't be prepared to do so? What kind of person would actually bend over for this sort of harassment???
posted by glider at 8:40 AM on February 9, 2010

If they had noticed it, they would have asked me to either hand it over or put it in checked baggage, and that would have been the end of it.

Flight diverted after confusion over Jewish prayer
posted by me & my monkey at 8:43 AM on February 9, 2010

C'mon. The only real case you can make is an absolutist one, which requires that we all fly naked after full cavity searches

oh sure, klang, like you weren't advocating for exactly this the other night at the L.A. meetup!
posted by scody at 8:45 AM on February 9, 2010

Flight diverted after confusion over Jewish prayer

How many times does this have to happen before the public says enough is enough? Why oh why is the response to this all to become increasingly subservient to power?

To me that is worrying, and it's disturbing that the presumably educated and informed demographic that I assume MeFi contains thinks the answer to this all is increased subservience.
posted by glider at 8:48 AM on February 9, 2010

So first, this was just something that happened. You just happened to have a knife, and you just happened to be filming it. Now all of a sudden your Thomas Fucking Paine waging a war against American political hegemony and security overkill.

Jesus wept. Just cop to the fact that you like people to pay attention to you. You did this becuase you like being the center of attention. Quit trying to drape it in activist mumbo jumbo.
posted by anansi at 8:52 AM on February 9, 2010 [12 favorites]

The guy's a maroon and a buffoon, but I'm surprised at the level of "How dare you, sir?" some people are displaying. If he and his silly knife (Which, despite claims to the contrary and much like himself, is a pretty impractical tool) had been detected prior to boarding, they would have probably asked him the toss the thing in that big bin with the lighters and other contraband. If it was found while in transit, I would assume he would hand it over to the appropriate authority (Tallest flight attendant?) and have a security representative waiting for him at the destination.

It's not a matter of belief. We don't need to speculate WWJessamynD; she walks among us.

Those times when there were only one set of footprints? She was on vacation.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:53 AM on February 9, 2010

How many times does this have to happen before the public says enough is enough? Why oh why is the response to this all to become increasingly subservient to power?

I suspect there's better ways of making a point on these issues than your particular brand of performance art.
posted by panboi at 8:57 AM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

How many times does this have to happen before the public says enough is enough?

I'm going to presume you're a fairly smart guy. You said that the worst consequences of somebody discovering your "accidental" knife were confiscation. I pointed out that this is obviously not the case. You should at least acknowledge that, if you want to make any further argument.

I'm not especially interested in debating the pros and cons of security theater. But if you're interested in changing the status quo, the approach you're taking is not the right one. And based on your responses here, it's pretty clear that your Ask post was disingenuous.
posted by me & my monkey at 8:57 AM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

it's disturbing that the presumably educated and informed demographic that I assume MeFi contains thinks the answer to this all is increased subservience.

The site contains multitudes and you seem to be trying to, at this point in the discussion, pick a fight with it. I was totally fine with assuming your AskMe question was asked in good faith, but this MeTa is sort of becoming what I call the "grade my report card" situation where you've created a plausible scenario [I need this knife for my pills, no one found it, I always video myself, I am concerned about my rights] and are then hammering away at your right to have been in that situation.

A few people think this was sort of cavalier of you and could have caused problems for other travelers. You seem to be taking their concerns as a jumping off point for a lecure about power and authority in the US and Americans [and others'] problematic relationship to this sort of authority. Which I guess is your right. I'm as "fuck the man" as you are in a lot of ways but I think your original assessment of MeFi was correct. It's an educated and informed demographic. However it is also one that doesn't really like getting lectured, or evaluating one person's interactions with authority as some sort of "gee we have to re-evaluate our entire approach towards plane travel in the US!" call to arms.

So I guess my question would be, tactically, what you're doing or trying to do here?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:59 AM on February 9, 2010 [5 favorites]

The site contains multitudes and you seem to be trying to, at this point in the discussion, pick a fight with it.

I came to ask a question -- believe it or not, that's really the beginning and end of it. Hal_c_on is the one that picked the fight and dragged it into a different realm of discussion than what I was looking for, and insisted on lobbing insults and being generally rude and over-reactive, while I've tried to maintain civil while responding to points that I initially never had any intention of discussing.

Personally I wish it had just stayed on initial topic -- the legal implications -- but this was taken out of my hands.
posted by glider at 9:10 AM on February 9, 2010

My own response to this would be "So?" You brought a knife for your own non-violent purposes and didn't get caught with it. Lucky day for you! If you had, you would have fought the man in court and not made a fuss in the moment. Again, good for you. No harm, no foul.

So, um, where's the beef? Sure, crap could have happened, but it didn't. I don't see either side here as having a real die-on-this-hill worthy argument: other passengers could have been inconvenienced - but they weren't. glider's rights could have been infringed upon - but they weren't. Whatever repercussions the video may or may not have, glider seems to be aware of the fact that activism can have consequences, so I don't see lecturing him on that to be worth anyone's time. (Not that I would. Lecture him, that is. I've got no dog in that fight.)

I'm starting to think this is maybe performance art in order to make a statement about the implications of security theatre in the 21st century and the pervasive openness of a society where all of our actions can be put on the internet for consumption by total strangers - in which case, it's better than a lot of performance art that I've seen and I'm ready to break out the popcorn and the rubber chickens. If not... well... it should be.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:17 AM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

what about pool balls in a sock - can you still take them on planes ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 9:18 AM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

No, the guy that's sitting in the meeting, allowing it to happen, is the one at fault. That's the point. It's not the fault of people who do things that are incorrectly interpreted as dangerous, it's the fault of people who build ineffective and missed-the-point policy.

If this was civil disobedience, then you're doing it wrong, I think.

As an aside, the security guys rather like it when you do stuff like this. It's a bit embarrassing at the time, sure, but it gives them excuse to turn the screws a bit more. "Plastic knives in carry-ons? No more carry-ons then!"

If the point was to make the point about security theatre, like Bruce Schneier's stupid airport security tricks, then you really have to be prepared to take the risk of jail. Civil disobedience is predicated on showing that an unjust law results in unjust consequences. you do this by demonstration---i.e. you take the consequences of the actions. You go to jail, pay the fine, get full-body cavity searched, whatever, then make a loud noise about it. The point is to embarrass over-reacting authorities by suffering unjustly then telling everyone about it. Appalling punishments beget an appalled public, then the laws change. Vis Maher Arar.

Avoiding and mitigating the consequences of your actions stops the process. The point of civil disobedience is to suffer unjustly, publicly to cause humiliation. Avoiding the suffering prevents the embarrassment that you need to effect change.

Your question had the air of avoiding consequences for your actions and so comes off like a privileged individual playing with the idea of civil disobedience, while mocking the substance of it. I have a great deal of respect for those who use this tool. I have less for people who try to devalue it.
posted by bonehead at 9:21 AM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

I came to ask a question -- believe it or not, that's really the beginning and end of it.

But again, your question was clearly disingenuous. You asked whether you could be charged for having brought a knife on a plane, knowing that it was illegal. You indicated that you knew it was illegal, while simultaneously stating that you had no intention of committing a criminal act.
posted by me & my monkey at 9:28 AM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

You indicated that you knew it was illegal.

No, that's not the case, which is why I said I appreciated the link that was provided stating that, although I wish the conversation had continued long enough to get something more specific. I had no idea whether it was legal, or if it was the responsibility of the screeners (ie. if they let it through, it's OK).

I would not have asked the question otherwise.
posted by glider at 9:32 AM on February 9, 2010

I had no idea whether it was legal, or if it was the responsibility of the screeners (ie. if they let it through, it's OK).

Really? So, presumably, if you'd figured out how to bring a handmade gun and bullets on, or explosives in your underpants, that would potentially have been legal in your mind as long as the screeners didn't catch you? Just like speeding or murder are legal as long as you don't get caught?
posted by me & my monkey at 9:45 AM on February 9, 2010

And hello straw man!
posted by glider at 9:47 AM on February 9, 2010

And hello ~~straw man~~ logical extrapolation of your statement!
posted by me & my monkey at 10:04 AM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

With logic like that, who needs insanity?
posted by glider at 10:10 AM on February 9, 2010

glider, is fatbird correct? Do you really have tattooed eye balls? Because that is the most interesting part of this MeTa to me.
posted by barrett caulk at 10:22 AM on February 9, 2010

Yes, I really have tattooed eyeballs, and I came up with the injection procedure for doing tattooed eyeballs (although I am not a practitioner thereof).

If you find that interesting, you may also find my magnetic fingertip implants interesting as well -- they allow me to feel EM fields, so for example, I can feel power running through power cord, or the EM bubble (including its frequency and strength, all by touch) that comes off of a transformer.
posted by glider at 10:28 AM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

I suppose one would get used to it. Would make playing electric guitar an interesting experience, I imagine.
posted by barrett caulk at 10:37 AM on February 9, 2010

This seems like an incredible burden

It's not a burden, no more than any other sense. I love it. It's completely intuitive to me at this point, and my brain has integrated it as a sixth sense where I just have a little more information about the world. It's hard to explain other than to just say that I see and feel EM fields, as if they were visible like a bubble of vibrating fog or something. The only time it bothers me is around very strong electrical fields from electromagnets that exist in some security systems.

And it means I can't go in for an MRI, which was a bit of an issue when I had a tumor removed.

Would make playing electric guitar an interesting experience, I imagine.

I can feel the magnets in the pickups, but it's a fairly minor experience (static magnets are a much milder feeling than a vibrating field), and the magnets don't affect the pickuips (nor do they format drives, credit cards, and so on).
posted by glider at 10:40 AM on February 9, 2010

Lets have a flamewar >:)
posted by Damn That Television at 10:55 AM on February 9, 2010

With logic like that, who needs insanity?

Since your argument basically boils down to "if I don't get caught, it may not be illegal," I think you've brought enough insanity for everyone to share. That is clearly not the case in other situations, why would it be the case here?

You seem to think that because the law is arguably wrong, you are allowed to break it without consequences. I agree with you that the law is wrong, but I'm not so sure about the other part. And it's certainly not the way to get the change you want.
posted by me & my monkey at 11:04 AM on February 9, 2010

At first I thought glider might be an attention whore.
posted by found missing at 11:10 AM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

Oh...so I "picked the fight" by starting a meta thread? Oh, ok.

No, you picked the fight by tossing around insults (which you continue to do), playing the race card, and choosing to have an argument rather than a conversation.

You seem to think that because the law is arguably wrong, you are allowed to break it without consequences.

Jury nullification is an important part of the legal system.
posted by glider at 11:22 AM on February 9, 2010

I love it when someone comes to MetaTalk to carp prematurely about some question that's about to get deleted and creates by way of their actions a complete open-ended chatfilter free-for-all on the topic they were so hot to condemn discussion of in the first place.

So I guess my question would be, tactically, what you're doing or trying to do here?

My question is what is the point of this thread remaining open at all?
posted by nanojath at 11:23 AM on February 9, 2010

To give a troll a chance to spaff off over how much people care about his trolling, it seems.
posted by Artw at 11:28 AM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

And hal_c_on, having finally bothered to browse through your posting history, it seems like virtually everything you have to say on every subject is angry, bitter, mean, self-righteous, and generally rude. There may be people here who have the foundation to criticize me, but you don't any more than the pot and the kettle.

I might be kooky and even offensively "alternative" in my thinking, but I'd like to think there is joy in all that I do, and at least I don't bathe in a fluid of negativity. You may want to replace your glass walls before lobbing more stones.
posted by glider at 11:34 AM on February 9, 2010

I might be kooky and even offensively "alternative" in my thinking,

No, not really. Your thinking is pretty normal, as is hal_c_yon's. There's just no need to keep arguing.
posted by Bookhouse at 12:05 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

And in any case, I have a long, practically career, history of activism inside Canada and don't need to be lectured that I should do more before picking on the oh-so-vulnerable USA.

I hate to break it to you, but YouTube videos about the l33t stuff you did to "Stick It To Teh Man!" doesn't count as "activism" in any country.

Although, may I suggest tinfoil on your head to go along with the magnetic fingertip implants? That way you can sense the EM bubbles with your fingertips, but your brain will be adequately protected from their rays. I hear tinfoil hats can be quite fetching.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:13 PM on February 9, 2010

My fear of terrorists kidnapping or injuring me has gotten to such a point that I have taken to carrying an extra me around with me, so that I can fling myself forward as a sacrifice, and then make good my escape.
posted by turgid dahlia at 12:49 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

The Simulacrum helm is not a toy.
posted by The Whelk at 12:51 PM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

Personally, I believe that people should be able to carry their knives wherever they want. But that being said, long before 9/11 made everyone afraid of the concept of knives being used on planes, I lost a really nice $120 Spyderco Mariner (that I had customized the hell out of) because I was walking a friend to her terminal and I totally forgot that I had it in my pocket.

That incident taught me two lessons; 1.) don't carry a better than a hundred dollar knife. If you lose it you will be sad. There are plenty of good, cheap knives that serve well for a pocket knife. And 2.) don't bring knives to the airport. And if you do, put them in you checked luggage.

Doing otherwise, just because you can, does nothing productive and invites problems and inconveniences for everyone involved. You aren't going to change policy on this. Ever. It existed long before the current security theater nonsense and will probably continue to exist as long as there is air travel.
posted by quin at 12:52 PM on February 9, 2010

Oh...so I "picked the fight" by starting a meta thread? Oh, ok.

Um. Yeah? You started a post to tell us how sad and angry the thread made you, noting that you might get thrashed.

How is that not picking a fight?
posted by desuetude at 12:58 PM on February 9, 2010

aaaww

/puts simulacrum helm back on shelf
posted by Babblesort at 1:00 PM on February 9, 2010

Is it illegal to take Happy Fun Ball onto a flight?
posted by panboi at 1:04 PM on February 9, 2010

it is unwise.
posted by The Whelk at 1:07 PM on February 9, 2010 [2 favorites]

I brought a spork on to a plane once. No one gave a fucking shit.
posted by Elmore at 1:18 PM on February 9, 2010

goddamn i am tired of hearing about this person's various cars
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:23 PM on February 9, 2010

all of BMW art cars, just crashed into each other, for kicks. I'm still not sure it's suitable playground.
posted by The Whelk at 1:24 PM on February 9, 2010

Glider, I was going to add to the chorus that what you did was wrong from a moral standpoint as well as a legal one. Not "oh my god what a massive evil" wrong, but more of a "perhaps he should have considered more thoroughly the unintended consequences to those around him" wrong.

But I'm willing to cut you some slack for the tattooed eyeballs- fucking cool. (how long did it take? I can only imagine sitting there while someone needles your eyes)
posted by HabeasCorpus at 1:50 PM on February 9, 2010

Saw the Penn and Teller show at the Rio in Vegas last month, and (without giving anything away, as it's an incidental thing having nothing to do with the trick they're performing at the time) they use a plastic-bladed knife as a prop, and then sell similar ones in the lobby afterwards. As used in the show, the purpose of these knives is to help make the point that security efforts are more about theater than about safety.

I mention this, because anyone attempting to slip a plastic knife through security to subsequently get publicity is doing something that's already been done by well-known performers.
posted by davejay at 2:31 PM on February 9, 2010

There's just no need to keep arguing.

This. Take it to metatalk. oh wait. take it to memail.
posted by davejay at 2:33 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

goddamn i am tired of hearing about this person's various cars

I don't know. I'm kinda curious about the skull-encrusted monster truck. I'm trying to imagine any part of Canada being anything like Bartertown, but juxtaposing Anne of Green Gables and Mad Max is just too hard.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:45 PM on February 9, 2010

something that's already been done by well-known performers.

One of which also happens to be a real pill when he opens his yap for too long, too.
posted by scody at 2:51 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

"oh sure, klang, like you weren't advocating for exactly this the other night at the L.A. meetup!"

I think you misunderstood. I was advocating that we get naked and search each others' cavities right there.
posted by klangklangston at 3:45 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

Wait, Penn and Teller are well-known performers?
posted by box at 4:00 PM on February 9, 2010

I'd like to get some of our more science-oriented members to weigh in on this fingertip electro-magnet business. I'm afraid my bullshit-meter is all borked from this thread, and I genuinely want to know if this works
posted by Think_Long at 4:43 PM on February 9, 2010

Personally, I believe that people should be able to carry their knives wherever they want. But that being said, long before 9/11 made everyone afraid of the concept of knives being used on planes, I lost a really nice $120 Spyderco Mariner (that I had customized the hell out of) because I was walking a friend to her terminal and I totally forgot that I had it in my pocket.

I did the same thing. I was picking up my wife (then girlfriend) from the airport. This was when you could actually meet people at the gate. I completely forgot that I had my Benchmade Boguszewski Spike. It was completely unintentional. I'm just so used to carrying a pocket knife. I've carried one since I was 10 and in the cub scouts. The security folks looked at me like I was crazy. Fortunately, they just held it for me while I was there and gave it back to me when I left.

Anyway, sorry 'bout the Mariner. That's a nice knife.
posted by anansi at 4:53 PM on February 9, 2010

but juxtaposing Anne of Green Gables and Mad Max is just too hard.

I smell a sit-com!
posted by The Whelk at 5:01 PM on February 9, 2010

I smell a sit-com!

Max: ~~Thunderdome.~~ MetaTalk. How do I get in there?
Aunty Entity: That's easy. Pick a fight!
CUE LAUGH TRACK
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:10 PM on February 9, 2010

I'm afraid my bullshit-meter is all borked from this thread, and I genuinely want to know if this works

Well, magnets interact with electromagnetic fields. Ergo, sticking magnets in your flesh would presumably result in being able to feel those magnets react physically to the presence of such fields. The basic idea is pretty pat.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:16 PM on February 9, 2010

Re: Magnetic Implants, for starters:
http://news.bmezine.com/2007/06/06/so-whats-it-like-having-magnetic-vision-bme-publishers-ring/

There are lots more articles on BME's ModBlog as well, and Quinn Norton has also published some good articles on it and done talks on the matter.
posted by glider at 5:35 PM on February 9, 2010

Sorry, forgot this site doesn't auto-link:
http://news.bmezine.com/2007/06/06/so-whats-it-like-having-magnetic-vision-bme-publishers-ring/
posted by glider at 5:35 PM on February 9, 2010

Only in the sense that I occasionally cheer myself up by mentally composing AskMe posts like, "Dear Hive Mind, I am too awesome. Why do people fear me so? I'm just naturally awesome, I can't help it!"

Eventually the coffee wears off and I come to my senses. But it does help amuse me for a few minutes, thereby alleviating the drudgery of everyday life.
posted by ErikaB at 8:16 PM on February 9, 2010 [1 favorite]

but juxtaposing Anne of Green Gables and Mad Max is just too hard.

Synopsis of "Max Rockatansky. Max With an X.":

The Feral Kid cuts Gilbert Blythe's fingers off after one too many tauntings, The Gyro Captain scores with haughty Josie Pye, promising to bring her to "Paradise! Two thousand miles from here. Fresh water. Plenty of sunshine. Nothing to do but breed!" also known as Toronto, and the Lord Humungous drinks too much currant wine (Thinking it was raspberry cordial) and pukes through his mask.

Goddamn, I would watch the living shit out of that movie.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:13 PM on February 9, 2010 [6 favorites]

Hello Metatalk, it's 9.14 pm here, the toddler is in bed and I'm drinking.

I wish you 'mericans wouldn't "Z" everything, I have been searching this thread for "would never happen in New Zealand" and keep coming up with falze pozitivez.

From a 'sweet as' NZ point of view -
: if the fact this guy took a knife on a plane (for stated purpose) upsets you - you are far too uptight.
If you were on the flight in question and saw it, you might say "Bro, bad idea" tops.
: Filming yourself with a plastic knife in the plane? Bro, Get A Life.

Honestly, the drama? All the drama?

...
posted by Catch at 12:20 AM on February 10, 2010

From a 'sweet as' NZ point of view -

Chur bro.
posted by supercrayon at 1:34 AM on February 10, 2010

AskMe and MeFi in general gets more mainstreamy law-scairdy every month. The famous "whats the best way to dispose of a dead body?" question would never make it today.
posted by telstar at 4:25 AM on February 10, 2010

The best thing about this? My fool mother did the same thing. Sans blog, but she did take a photo and sent it to me.

Her knife was a bit more hardcore though. Seeing as we're Aussies.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:39 PM on February 10, 2010

Her knife was a bit more hardcore though. Seeing as we're Aussies.

That's the most racist thing I've heard all day
posted by Think_Long at 7:38 PM on February 10, 2010

That's the most racist thing I've heard all day

Like I said, we're Aussies...
posted by geek anachronism at 11:12 PM on February 10, 2010 [1 favorite]

So... I have a follow-up on this straight from the horse's mouth.

I was at the airport again yesterday to drop off my daughter, and we sat down and had a slice of pizza because we got there early. Coincidentally, sitting next to us were three security agents speaking boisterously in Arabic, and I realized that one of them was the same woman who'd been working the gate that I'd walked through with the knife.

I told them the story of what had happened, and I asked them what a person should do if they're on the airplane and realize that they have a knife in their pocket. They told me that it wasn't anything to worry about and that I should just keep it in my pocket and not tell the stewardesses or anyone else on the plane. I also asked them what they would have done if they caught someone with a knife at the security checkpoint, and they said that it was not a big deal and that if that happened I'd just be asked to put it in my luggage.

At the end of it, one of the women gave my daughter a small present (an Avon promotional calendar full of pictures of flowers) and wished us well as they left to go back to work.

Anyway, it was wonderful to see that they did not meet the stereotype of blindly rule following TSA numbskulls, and in reality approached their job with common sense and a realistic understanding of the sort of people who would actually endanger a flight -- and who wouldn't.
posted by glider at 8:09 AM on February 12, 2010

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