I want a hoverpony! November 6, 2010 7:55 PM Subscribe
It is standard Metafilter practice is to add links inline, but when the website they point to dies or rearranges its content they become meaningless. I'd like Metafilter's link dialog to encourage us to add hoverable descriptions to our links. This wouldn't just preserve meaning when a link has died; it would give us a way to alert people to PDF or video files without putting distracting warnings (PDF) in the actual text.
I was actually thinking about this today when I was reading through the latest sidebar comment. A lot of the links I clicked in 9/11 thread were dead or returned to a home page.
On a site like this, when the links die, you lose a lot of the context. I like this idea, but in terms of practicality, I don't think too many would notice your warnings. And the frustrating problem of link death would remain. Perhaps even more frustrating- that tiny bit of context you receive makes you want to see that dead link even more.
posted by Askiba at 8:06 PM on November 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
On a site like this, when the links die, you lose a lot of the context. I like this idea, but in terms of practicality, I don't think too many would notice your warnings. And the frustrating problem of link death would remain. Perhaps even more frustrating- that tiny bit of context you receive makes you want to see that dead link even more.
posted by Askiba at 8:06 PM on November 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'd love this for meaningless youtube links but I haven't spent much time considering the practicalities.
posted by shinybaum at 8:12 PM on November 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by shinybaum at 8:12 PM on November 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes, this just happened to me as well, as I went off on those weird tangents, and found myself in a 3 year old thread, but the link had been archived. On my own site, I pull the meat of the link out, paste it into the comment field , and then attribute the source and send them traffic by linking to it in the headline. I can't see how that could possibly work here though.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 8:15 PM on November 6, 2010
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 8:15 PM on November 6, 2010
Just wait until all the links in this post die. The stench of irony will hang in the air!
posted by Askiba at 8:26 PM on November 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Askiba at 8:26 PM on November 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
hoverable inclusions must accompany form 4-6tr4
in compliance to CS4 air complapabilty nodual refractulas
therefore and more over thus
FOTB requires new beach wear and a multi-unformal platform integration
button.
posted by clavdivs at 8:29 PM on November 6, 2010
in compliance to CS4 air complapabilty nodual refractulas
therefore and more over thus
FOTB requires new beach wear and a multi-unformal platform integration
button.
posted by clavdivs at 8:29 PM on November 6, 2010
Ass jittering taters.
posted by nomadicink at 8:39 PM on November 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by nomadicink at 8:39 PM on November 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I use hover-over to check for .pdf, and if something slips by, I click "Cancel" in the "Open or Save?" dialog window.
I'm not complaining about the big all-caps warnings, but I have always felt they were a bit...more than necessary.
posted by paisley henosis at 8:49 PM on November 6, 2010
I'm not complaining about the big all-caps warnings, but I have always felt they were a bit...more than necessary.
posted by paisley henosis at 8:49 PM on November 6, 2010
...it would give us a way to alert people to PDF or video files without putting distracting warnings (PDF) in the actual text.
Those text warnings are arguably most helpful to those of us who regularly browse Metafilter on our cell phones, where we can't easily see if a link is a PDF file or YouTube video, which we often can't open.
Mouse-over text also doesn't work in the Blackberry browser. At least, I don't believe it does.
If the mods would like to implement mouse-over text, that's fine with me. It would enhance the MeFi experience for those users in the know, on browsers that can handle it. But as a replacement to in-text notification, it would reduce the utility of the site for me, at least. And perhaps for other users as well?
Also worth mentioning: Twitter had a nasty incident with mouseover text redirects about a month ago. Something to avoid.
posted by zarq at 8:49 PM on November 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Those text warnings are arguably most helpful to those of us who regularly browse Metafilter on our cell phones, where we can't easily see if a link is a PDF file or YouTube video, which we often can't open.
Mouse-over text also doesn't work in the Blackberry browser. At least, I don't believe it does.
If the mods would like to implement mouse-over text, that's fine with me. It would enhance the MeFi experience for those users in the know, on browsers that can handle it. But as a replacement to in-text notification, it would reduce the utility of the site for me, at least. And perhaps for other users as well?
Also worth mentioning: Twitter had a nasty incident with mouseover text redirects about a month ago. Something to avoid.
posted by zarq at 8:49 PM on November 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also: does anybody actually read the HTML title text stuff that pops up? I never ever ever read that. Ever.
posted by paisley henosis at 8:50 PM on November 6, 2010
posted by paisley henosis at 8:50 PM on November 6, 2010
New Flag option: "Dead Link?"
No idea how they'd manage it, but it might make sense to have on current FPPs?
posted by schmod at 8:52 PM on November 6, 2010
No idea how they'd manage it, but it might make sense to have on current FPPs?
posted by schmod at 8:52 PM on November 6, 2010
It would be cool if there was a Wayback Machine-like thing running where old MeFi stories were cached along with a simple version of the pages linked to as they were at the time.
That would make learning fun and possibly solve a few time crimes.
posted by circular at 9:00 PM on November 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
That would make learning fun and possibly solve a few time crimes.
posted by circular at 9:00 PM on November 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Only tangentially related. It would be so cool if people would just say what the youtube video is that they are linking to, instead of calling them "this" or some variation thereof. It would be oh so helpful to those of us working with a limited data internet connection in terms of being able to decide whether to view the link or not.
posted by bardophile at 10:18 PM on November 6, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by bardophile at 10:18 PM on November 6, 2010 [4 favorites]
If people want to start using this, it might be better to use the abbr tag:
Like so.
I like it because it underlines the hovertext'd words with that little dotted line (at least in Firefox), so it's more obvious that there's some extra stuff there.
In other news, GOOGLE TOTALLY KNOWS IT'S MY BIRTHDAY TODAY WTF
posted by Rhaomi at 10:21 PM on November 6, 2010
Like so.
<abbr title="quit pokin me">Like so.</abbr>I like it because it underlines the hovertext'd words with that little dotted line (at least in Firefox), so it's more obvious that there's some extra stuff there.
In other news, GOOGLE TOTALLY KNOWS IT'S MY BIRTHDAY TODAY WTF
posted by Rhaomi at 10:21 PM on November 6, 2010
I'm seconding John Cohen. There's no way I'm gonna hover everything to make sure it's not a PDF.
posted by NoraReed at 10:26 PM on November 6, 2010
posted by NoraReed at 10:26 PM on November 6, 2010
bardophile writes "It would be so cool if people would just say what the youtube video is that they are linking to, instead of calling them 'this' or some variation thereof. It would be oh so helpful to those of us working with a limited data internet connection in terms of being able to decide whether to view the link or not."
Also with Amazon/IMDB links. You've got to cut/paste the link to be "clever" instead cut/paste the book/movie title and then I can a) use the vendor of my choice (Amazon USA if rarely it) b) the text will continue to resolve as long as metafilter is around.
posted by Mitheral at 10:32 PM on November 6, 2010
Also with Amazon/IMDB links. You've got to cut/paste the link to be "clever" instead cut/paste the book/movie title and then I can a) use the vendor of my choice (Amazon USA if rarely it) b) the text will continue to resolve as long as metafilter is around.
posted by Mitheral at 10:32 PM on November 6, 2010
I have no idea what this post is about. Can someone provide some context or explanation as to what the OP is talking about?
It sounds like the OP is complaining about other sites whose links die off.
How, exactly, does hovering one's cursor over a link on this site do anything about dead links on other sites?
posted by dfriedman at 11:03 PM on November 6, 2010
It sounds like the OP is complaining about other sites whose links die off.
How, exactly, does hovering one's cursor over a link on this site do anything about dead links on other sites?
posted by dfriedman at 11:03 PM on November 6, 2010
Yeah, I'm with dfriedman: I don't understand how hover text is supposed to be a solution to dead links. Can anyone give a concrete, specific example of how this would work?
posted by John Cohen at 11:09 PM on November 6, 2010
posted by John Cohen at 11:09 PM on November 6, 2010
Well, if we labeled our links using the title attribute it would give people a better chance of figuring out what dead links used to point to than just context alone. On the other hand, it's still a dead link.
posted by Artw at 11:16 PM on November 6, 2010
posted by Artw at 11:16 PM on November 6, 2010
Given two different statements:
Also: Previously.
posted by Mitheral at 11:18 PM on November 6, 2010
This would seem appropriate.The first option is completely meaningless if the link dies. The OP proposes modifing the link dialogue to ask for title text so that the first statement would be:
Back to the Future would seem appropriate.
This would seem appropriate.giving context via hover over if the link dies.
Also: Previously.
posted by Mitheral at 11:18 PM on November 6, 2010
I thought it'd be where people type 'this article explains my position exactly' and the link goes to newsorganisation.com/article/9873465609347590387instead of newsorganisation.com/article/apple-computers-suck-because-some-reason
posted by shinybaum at 11:22 PM on November 6, 2010
posted by shinybaum at 11:22 PM on November 6, 2010
Oh yeah, linking to imdb is a pointless waste of a tab load for me, I rarely click those links. I just realised I've been doing the youtube THIS though, and will stop.
posted by shinybaum at 11:24 PM on November 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by shinybaum at 11:24 PM on November 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I am somewhat concerned the proposed scheme will interfere with the main utility of the title attribute, namely ironic metacommentary and obscure in-jokes.
posted by Dr Dracator at 11:47 PM on November 6, 2010
posted by Dr Dracator at 11:47 PM on November 6, 2010
Mitheral: I still don't understand. If someone's willing to take the trouble to type out "Back to the Future," wouldn't that be more useful in the normal text than in the hover text? In what situation would your example be optimal?
posted by John Cohen at 2:33 AM on November 7, 2010
posted by John Cohen at 2:33 AM on November 7, 2010
John Cohen: My personal preference would be to have Back to The Future typed out in the normal text. I think those people who are concerned about the ironic metacommentary and obscure in-jokes getting lost if mouseover text were put in place would be even more worried if we were going to be literal in the normal text.
posted by bardophile at 2:38 AM on November 7, 2010
posted by bardophile at 2:38 AM on November 7, 2010
don't the URLS for PDF files normally end in ".pdf"? if you're already hovering to figure it out, the actual title text warning seems redundant
posted by rollick at 3:06 AM on November 7, 2010
posted by rollick at 3:06 AM on November 7, 2010
If people want to start using this, it might be better to use the abbr tag
But that's not what it's for. Without wishing to get all zealot-y, the abbreviation tag is for abbreviations. An
In fact, would it be possible to read the input URL, and if it ends in ".pdf" apply a certain class to the
posted by djgh at 4:37 AM on November 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
But that's not what it's for. Without wishing to get all zealot-y, the abbreviation tag is for abbreviations. An
span class which had CSS attributes to replicate the behaviour might be a better option.In fact, would it be possible to read the input URL, and if it ends in ".pdf" apply a certain class to the
a? Could append "PDF" to it or something (without the quotation marks).posted by djgh at 4:37 AM on November 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Hover should be deprecated.
It doesn't work on iPhones, Android, etc. Something that only works on "some" browsers shouldn't be implemented at all.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:52 AM on November 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
It doesn't work on iPhones, Android, etc. Something that only works on "some" browsers shouldn't be implemented at all.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:52 AM on November 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Twitter had a nasty incident with mouseover text redirects about a month ago.
That's really neither here nor there. Metafilter has always supported the title attribute for people who type links by hand, so changing the link button would have no effect on whether the site is or isn't vulnerable to such an attack -- that depends only on the HTML sanitizing code that runs server side, not on anything on the client end. And nobody's talking about touching that code, so the security impact is nil.
posted by Rhomboid at 5:55 AM on November 7, 2010
That's really neither here nor there. Metafilter has always supported the title attribute for people who type links by hand, so changing the link button would have no effect on whether the site is or isn't vulnerable to such an attack -- that depends only on the HTML sanitizing code that runs server side, not on anything on the client end. And nobody's talking about touching that code, so the security impact is nil.
posted by Rhomboid at 5:55 AM on November 7, 2010
The best general solution to providing context for links is to be descriptive in the plain display text in and around the link itself. People don't always elect to do that, either because they don't think about the consequences of vagueness or of linkrot (in which case they are unlikely to be inclined to go to the effort to annotate the link itself) or because they prefer to be vague (in which case they're unlikely to specifically undermine their vagueness after the fact by being explicit in a secondary mode).
Which is not to say that no one not currently bolstering their links with title attributes would be willing to start doing so, but I think most folks who don't do it, or who create otherwise context-free links where it would be arguably useful, are unlikely to fundamentally change their disposition for this slightly esoteric bit of the process.
I think the distracting warnings, while in any case more a courtesy than a requirement here as it is, are probably functional specifically because they are out there and distracting. That's more or less the whole point: having a visible, hard-to-miss "oh hey btw" sort of speedbump in the text so readers aren't caught out.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:11 AM on November 7, 2010
Which is not to say that no one not currently bolstering their links with title attributes would be willing to start doing so, but I think most folks who don't do it, or who create otherwise context-free links where it would be arguably useful, are unlikely to fundamentally change their disposition for this slightly esoteric bit of the process.
I think the distracting warnings, while in any case more a courtesy than a requirement here as it is, are probably functional specifically because they are out there and distracting. That's more or less the whole point: having a visible, hard-to-miss "oh hey btw" sort of speedbump in the text so readers aren't caught out.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:11 AM on November 7, 2010
It doesn't work on iPhones, Android, etc. Something that only works on "some" browsers shouldn't be implemented at all.
Are you joking? Because you should kill images next, they don't work on Lynx.
A more pragmatic approach would be to not rely on hover text for crucial information (which is a good idea in many ways) and in the mean time ask Apple, Googel et al to figure out a way to implement this cutting edge 1980s technology in their platforms.
posted by Dr Dracator at 7:16 AM on November 7, 2010
Are you joking? Because you should kill images next, they don't work on Lynx.
A more pragmatic approach would be to not rely on hover text for crucial information (which is a good idea in many ways) and in the mean time ask Apple, Googel et al to figure out a way to implement this cutting edge 1980s technology in their platforms.
posted by Dr Dracator at 7:16 AM on November 7, 2010
I already use the little under line thing a lot
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:30 AM on November 7, 2010
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:30 AM on November 7, 2010
Askiba: On a site like this, when the links die, you lose a lot of the context.
FWIW I'm OK with that. Posts are date and time stamped; they are by definition a snapshot of a topic at a fixed point in time. Time marches on and things expire and I don't personally have a compelling need to adjust for that with a hoverpony.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:24 AM on November 7, 2010
FWIW I'm OK with that. Posts are date and time stamped; they are by definition a snapshot of a topic at a fixed point in time. Time marches on and things expire and I don't personally have a compelling need to adjust for that with a hoverpony.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:24 AM on November 7, 2010
On a site like this, when the links die, you lose a lot of the context.
Yeah that's sort of going to happen. We sometimes get people emailing us about old dead links in their posts and sometimes offering newer non-dead links to replace them with. This is too much work and not something we want to see as part of our daily operations here. People are welcome to include as much context as they want to already. People who don't tell you much about a link to begin with are unlikely to include more context in hover-overs so this is a fix for a set of people who are, in my estimation, unlikely to use it. And yeah, it lacks utility on mobile devices which is the growing sector of our userbase, not the shrinking one. So, I really do hear what you're saying but a feature like this one which depends on a great deal of affirmative user behavior is unlikely to take hold here unless there's a huge groundswell of desire for it in the first place.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:35 AM on November 7, 2010
Yeah that's sort of going to happen. We sometimes get people emailing us about old dead links in their posts and sometimes offering newer non-dead links to replace them with. This is too much work and not something we want to see as part of our daily operations here. People are welcome to include as much context as they want to already. People who don't tell you much about a link to begin with are unlikely to include more context in hover-overs so this is a fix for a set of people who are, in my estimation, unlikely to use it. And yeah, it lacks utility on mobile devices which is the growing sector of our userbase, not the shrinking one. So, I really do hear what you're saying but a feature like this one which depends on a great deal of affirmative user behavior is unlikely to take hold here unless there's a huge groundswell of desire for it in the first place.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:35 AM on November 7, 2010
John Cohen: My personal preference would be to have Back to The Future typed out in the normal text. I think those people who are concerned about the ironic metacommentary and obscure in-jokes getting lost if mouseover text were put in place would be even more worried if we were going to be literal in the normal text.
If it's so important to an obscure joke that it not be spelled out on the page, then hover text would seem to ruin that too. You're talking about such an esoteric, finely tuned idea of exactly how readable a link is supposed to be that I can't imagine any built-in feature to encourage this behavior.
posted by John Cohen at 9:23 AM on November 7, 2010
If it's so important to an obscure joke that it not be spelled out on the page, then hover text would seem to ruin that too. You're talking about such an esoteric, finely tuned idea of exactly how readable a link is supposed to be that I can't imagine any built-in feature to encourage this behavior.
posted by John Cohen at 9:23 AM on November 7, 2010
Hover should be deprecated
*hugs hover*
It's ok, I appreciate you.
posted by nomadicink at 11:37 AM on November 7, 2010
*hugs hover*
It's ok, I appreciate you.
posted by nomadicink at 11:37 AM on November 7, 2010
If you're dealing with many dead links, there's a bookmarklet for one-click reference to the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine. While you're there, the bookmarklets for the Google Cache & Coral Cache are also useful when the site's overwhelmed by visitors.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:48 AM on November 7, 2010
posted by Pronoiac at 11:48 AM on November 7, 2010
John Cohen writes "Mitheral: I still don't understand. If someone's willing to take the trouble to type out 'Back to the Future,' wouldn't that be more useful in the normal text than in the hover text? In what situation would your example be optimal?"
Yes it would be better if it was in the normal text. However having it in the hover text would be be better than having a completely meaningless link.
blue_beetle writes "It doesn't work on iPhones, Android, etc. Something that only works on 'some' browsers shouldn't be implemented at all."
Seconding Dr. Dracator. Even if depreciating something just because some browsers do not support it was a good idea mobile browsers are a very small percentage of the market. Heck depending on who you want to believe IE6 still loads more pages than all mobile platforms combined. I imagine that isn't the case for MetaFilter both because we skew heavily to alternative browsers and because the format is pretty well ideal for mobile content. Though I am a little surprised by the deficiencies of mobile browsing every time it comes up.
posted by Mitheral at 11:59 AM on November 7, 2010
Yes it would be better if it was in the normal text. However having it in the hover text would be be better than having a completely meaningless link.
blue_beetle writes "It doesn't work on iPhones, Android, etc. Something that only works on 'some' browsers shouldn't be implemented at all."
Seconding Dr. Dracator. Even if depreciating something just because some browsers do not support it was a good idea mobile browsers are a very small percentage of the market. Heck depending on who you want to believe IE6 still loads more pages than all mobile platforms combined. I imagine that isn't the case for MetaFilter both because we skew heavily to alternative browsers and because the format is pretty well ideal for mobile content. Though I am a little surprised by the deficiencies of mobile browsing every time it comes up.
posted by Mitheral at 11:59 AM on November 7, 2010
Yes it would be better if it was in the normal text. However having it in the hover text would be be better than having a completely meaningless link.
But if "it would be better if it was in the normal text," why would we have a feature that encourages people not to put it in the normal text?
posted by John Cohen at 12:13 PM on November 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
But if "it would be better if it was in the normal text," why would we have a feature that encourages people not to put it in the normal text?
posted by John Cohen at 12:13 PM on November 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I realize I might use the link button differently than others but I always first type the normal text; selected the text I want linked; and then hit the link button. If that normal text gives no hint of the content of the link then being prompted for title text would give an easy way to add it. I doubt the people who love blind linking would use that feature but it might prompt people who aren't aware of the bit rot problem (IE: users who are unintentionally being obscure).
Anyways as long as the pony could be incorporated into the current link dialogue box (IE: no additional OK buttons to click) I don't really care whether we get this pony or not. I'd probably use it if we do as I manually add title text fairly often anyways but it really isn't a chore to do it manually. I think the occasional metatalk post educating those being unintentionally obscure is probably a better solution to the OP's identified problem.
posted by Mitheral at 5:28 PM on November 7, 2010
Anyways as long as the pony could be incorporated into the current link dialogue box (IE: no additional OK buttons to click) I don't really care whether we get this pony or not. I'd probably use it if we do as I manually add title text fairly often anyways but it really isn't a chore to do it manually. I think the occasional metatalk post educating those being unintentionally obscure is probably a better solution to the OP's identified problem.
posted by Mitheral at 5:28 PM on November 7, 2010
Something that only works on "some" browsers shouldn't be implemented at all.
"Yay!" ~ IE6
posted by brundlefly at 10:10 PM on November 7, 2010
"Yay!" ~ IE6
posted by brundlefly at 10:10 PM on November 7, 2010
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Those warnings should be distracting. A warning is only useful if it's conspicuous. I wouldn't usually notice a PDF or video file warning if it's in hover text.
posted by John Cohen at 8:05 PM on November 6, 2010 [3 favorites]