Please stop with the derailing March 29, 2002 5:08 AM Subscribe
amen rcade. (your logic is quite elegant as well).
I'm all about this kind of comment. The comment stays on topic and links out to another cool site. That's meatafilter working.
Don't be lazy folks, find the links that tell the story.
posted by zpousman at 5:39 AM on March 29, 2002
I'm all about this kind of comment. The comment stays on topic and links out to another cool site. That's meatafilter working.
Don't be lazy folks, find the links that tell the story.
posted by zpousman at 5:39 AM on March 29, 2002
Agreed. Matt has made it pretty clear that he hates this stuff.
The recent double-post MeTa thread started by Beth makes clear why this sort of thing is lame. (1) Ernest newbie makes FPP; (2) people begin filling the thread with random wackiness; (3) new user bewildered by childish behavior, effectively put off by in-joking old-timers.
It's like an old irc channel populated by people too well-established to actually converse, but perfectly happy to spend their time taunting newcomers.
posted by Mid at 6:11 AM on March 29, 2002
The recent double-post MeTa thread started by Beth makes clear why this sort of thing is lame. (1) Ernest newbie makes FPP; (2) people begin filling the thread with random wackiness; (3) new user bewildered by childish behavior, effectively put off by in-joking old-timers.
It's like an old irc channel populated by people too well-established to actually converse, but perfectly happy to spend their time taunting newcomers.
posted by Mid at 6:11 AM on March 29, 2002
While I agree that the pancakes and haiku should be avoided at all costs, I don't necessarily think it's wrong to state in a thread that the thread is inappropriate. After all, people point out double posts in the thread and not here, and as long as they do so succinctly and without pancakes or haiku, it seems acceptable.
posted by anapestic at 6:22 AM on March 29, 2002
posted by anapestic at 6:22 AM on March 29, 2002
Beth's not a newbie, though. Even oldbies can be bewildered by the vagaries of Metafilter.
posted by rodii at 6:24 AM on March 29, 2002
posted by rodii at 6:24 AM on March 29, 2002
Oh, she joined the day after me! I guess she is a newbie. :)
posted by rodii at 6:25 AM on March 29, 2002
posted by rodii at 6:25 AM on March 29, 2002
Sorry. I didn't check Beth's user #. Just assumed from her bewildered tone that she was unfamiliar with the pancake brigade.
I think the principle still applies.
posted by Mid at 6:30 AM on March 29, 2002
I think the principle still applies.
posted by Mid at 6:30 AM on March 29, 2002
Meatafilter: Come for the hot dogs, stay for the Tbones.
posted by Mack Twain at 6:43 AM on March 29, 2002
posted by Mack Twain at 6:43 AM on March 29, 2002
now hold on there, mid.
the thread you're referring to was started by coldchef, who is about as far from an 'earnest newbie' as one can get.
the early discussion was mostly quite pointless:
'wow! now i have an excuse for my messy desk.'
'you're so silly; i have a clean desk and i love it.'
'hey! i have a messy desk too!'
etc.
but then pomegranate posted
after that, there was no reason for anybody to read further, so the haikus broke out.
why do i describe this in such great detail and with obvious defensiveness? well, i feel somewhat responsible, as i posted the first haiku, with which i just meant to tweak coldchef (a friend of mine) for his faux-pas.
little did i know that i would unleash a virtuosic display of haiku-writing by mr. chef. he was funny, he was biting, he was fast. and he was the originator of the thread; he could hardly be accused of hijacking.
i think it's a shame that matt deleted the thread. coldchef's haikus truly were special. exhibitionist in-jokes? absolutely. but who would be harmed by them? and is it possible that some newbies might even take pleasure in reading them? who doesn't enjoy a good epic...or a good soap opera?
i understand that metafilter would be destroyed if all the threads were filled with this garbage: slippery slope, etc. but i like to think that this one was special. perhaps i'm just blinded by my own involvement.
anyway, sorry to be so verbose; i just couldn't let mid's mischaracterization of that thread stand.
posted by mlang at 6:43 AM on March 29, 2002
the thread you're referring to was started by coldchef, who is about as far from an 'earnest newbie' as one can get.
the early discussion was mostly quite pointless:
'wow! now i have an excuse for my messy desk.'
'you're so silly; i have a clean desk and i love it.'
'hey! i have a messy desk too!'
etc.
but then pomegranate posted
Actually, this is a double post. It's a great example though of the same organizational issues discussed in the article.and that was a fantastic double-post notification, because it commented on the topic while pointing interested users (who might have missed the initial discussion) in the right direction. and it was the right direction, considering the level of discourse in the new thread versus that in the old (which was pretty high).
after that, there was no reason for anybody to read further, so the haikus broke out.
why do i describe this in such great detail and with obvious defensiveness? well, i feel somewhat responsible, as i posted the first haiku, with which i just meant to tweak coldchef (a friend of mine) for his faux-pas.
little did i know that i would unleash a virtuosic display of haiku-writing by mr. chef. he was funny, he was biting, he was fast. and he was the originator of the thread; he could hardly be accused of hijacking.
i think it's a shame that matt deleted the thread. coldchef's haikus truly were special. exhibitionist in-jokes? absolutely. but who would be harmed by them? and is it possible that some newbies might even take pleasure in reading them? who doesn't enjoy a good epic...or a good soap opera?
i understand that metafilter would be destroyed if all the threads were filled with this garbage: slippery slope, etc. but i like to think that this one was special. perhaps i'm just blinded by my own involvement.
anyway, sorry to be so verbose; i just couldn't let mid's mischaracterization of that thread stand.
posted by mlang at 6:43 AM on March 29, 2002
i think it's a shame that matt deleted the thread.
Thank you Senator Mlang. I'd like to add, though, that upon realizing that I had doubleposted, i quickly emailed Matt and BEGGED him to delete the thread. And between then and the eventual deletion, I knew what we were doing was essentially farting in the wind.
"Are you now or have you ever been a haiku-ligan?"
The last thing I want to do is cause division in this community. If people get angry and stompy when they see seventeen syllable nuggets, there's not much I can do for them, but I promise I'll try to refrain from whipping out my quill.
I've never purposely derailed a thread with malicious intent, and I think that no one here should.
Poems should be handshakes, not handgrenades.
posted by ColdChef at 7:04 AM on March 29, 2002
Thank you Senator Mlang. I'd like to add, though, that upon realizing that I had doubleposted, i quickly emailed Matt and BEGGED him to delete the thread. And between then and the eventual deletion, I knew what we were doing was essentially farting in the wind.
"Are you now or have you ever been a haiku-ligan?"
The last thing I want to do is cause division in this community. If people get angry and stompy when they see seventeen syllable nuggets, there's not much I can do for them, but I promise I'll try to refrain from whipping out my quill.
I've never purposely derailed a thread with malicious intent, and I think that no one here should.
Poems should be handshakes, not handgrenades.
posted by ColdChef at 7:04 AM on March 29, 2002
to return to the original topic, i agree that evanizer and bluetrain were out of line in the thread brought up here by rcade.
god knows i understand their sentiment...but that's why i stay the ever-living fuck away from any thread containing the word 'israel' or 'palestine'. and i'd encourage them to do the same in the future.
both of these gentlemen are usually great contributors. the problem here is that they had nothing to contribute other than their frustration with this notoriously polarizing topic. and they both chose to express this frustration in a manner disruptive to the community.
i believe that both of them know better and wouldn't have done so but for the maddening insolubility of this crisis. and i wouldn't expect to see either of them do it again. but rcade gets props for a compelling argument against in-thread bitching.
posted by mlang at 7:18 AM on March 29, 2002
god knows i understand their sentiment...but that's why i stay the ever-living fuck away from any thread containing the word 'israel' or 'palestine'. and i'd encourage them to do the same in the future.
both of these gentlemen are usually great contributors. the problem here is that they had nothing to contribute other than their frustration with this notoriously polarizing topic. and they both chose to express this frustration in a manner disruptive to the community.
i believe that both of them know better and wouldn't have done so but for the maddening insolubility of this crisis. and i wouldn't expect to see either of them do it again. but rcade gets props for a compelling argument against in-thread bitching.
posted by mlang at 7:18 AM on March 29, 2002
>>i think it's a shame that matt deleted the thread. coldchef's haikus truly were special. exhibitionist in-jokes? absolutely. but who would be harmed by them? and is it possible that some newbies might even take pleasure in reading them? who doesn't enjoy a good epic...or a good soap opera?
Fun though they are, I bet leaving a thread to get that big without it being a "meaningful discussion" (which is, you know, sort of the idea of the place) is probably just a big ol' waste of server space. But then again...there's always thread #1142...
posted by macadamiaranch at 7:25 AM on March 29, 2002
Fun though they are, I bet leaving a thread to get that big without it being a "meaningful discussion" (which is, you know, sort of the idea of the place) is probably just a big ol' waste of server space. But then again...there's always thread #1142...
posted by macadamiaranch at 7:25 AM on March 29, 2002
Another issue here though, Mlang and ColdChef, is that Matt has already brought up the exact thing you both described as an irritating trend: "This post's going to get deleted any way, so screw it! haiku, pancakes and bunnies for everyone!!! "
And hilarity ensues. If there was "no reason for anyone to read further," then why did you write further? It gets into shut-up-if-you-have-nothing-to-say territory.
Anapestic: I'd say it's fine to call a post inappropriate within the thread, but do it in a way that isn't irritating re: the haiku, and preferrably, start and LINK a MeTa thread about it, so that the original doesn't get hijacked, in case people want to go on and salvage it. There have been examples of crap posts somehow turning into decent discussions when given a little time.
posted by Su at 7:28 AM on March 29, 2002
And hilarity ensues. If there was "no reason for anyone to read further," then why did you write further? It gets into shut-up-if-you-have-nothing-to-say territory.
Anapestic: I'd say it's fine to call a post inappropriate within the thread, but do it in a way that isn't irritating re: the haiku, and preferrably, start and LINK a MeTa thread about it, so that the original doesn't get hijacked, in case people want to go on and salvage it. There have been examples of crap posts somehow turning into decent discussions when given a little time.
posted by Su at 7:28 AM on March 29, 2002
Hey, and since when is it bad to editorialize on a front page post? Is it only when you disagree with the editorial? Where in the posting guidelines does it say that posters to the front page need to be neutral on the subject?
Unintentional topic drift is bad enough. Intentionally derailing a topic is virtual terrorism!
posted by crunchland at 7:37 AM on March 29, 2002
Unintentional topic drift is bad enough. Intentionally derailing a topic is virtual terrorism!
posted by crunchland at 7:37 AM on March 29, 2002
ok, maybe that's a little over-the-top, but work with me here...
posted by crunchland at 7:40 AM on March 29, 2002
posted by crunchland at 7:40 AM on March 29, 2002
have i contradicted myself in my last two comments? i don't believe so. here's why:
the haiku and pancakes were used in the palestine/israel thread in a disruptive manner. they were not intended to contribute to the discussion, but to kill it.
the haiku in coldchef's doublepost were not disruptive to any discussion...because there was no discussion. anyone who wanted to further discuss that new yorker article was obligated (by force of metafilter etiquette & precedent, as well as by the knowledge that coldchef's thread would most likely be deleted) to move to the original thread (which was only one week old).
coldchef's doublepost then became undeveloped real estate, a vacant lot. but one in which you could build only the most temporary of structures, because you never knew when the property's rightful owner might need the space for some purpose.
even if it's only temporary, i think that a community garden is a hell of a lot more attractive than a trash-collecting, rolling tumbleweed-filled vacant lot. or, perhaps a more appropriate analogy would be a community social center, where old neighbors could joke with each other and new neighbors could meet people.
no, no, i've got the analogy now: a community performance space. jpoulos suggested a classic theme (jealousy) and coldchef composed an impromptu haiku epic about it, with contributions from several other members.
so you see, there is good haiku and bad haiku. and it's not just a matter of taste, but one of, ummm...utility.
posted by mlang at 7:42 AM on March 29, 2002
the haiku and pancakes were used in the palestine/israel thread in a disruptive manner. they were not intended to contribute to the discussion, but to kill it.
the haiku in coldchef's doublepost were not disruptive to any discussion...because there was no discussion. anyone who wanted to further discuss that new yorker article was obligated (by force of metafilter etiquette & precedent, as well as by the knowledge that coldchef's thread would most likely be deleted) to move to the original thread (which was only one week old).
coldchef's doublepost then became undeveloped real estate, a vacant lot. but one in which you could build only the most temporary of structures, because you never knew when the property's rightful owner might need the space for some purpose.
even if it's only temporary, i think that a community garden is a hell of a lot more attractive than a trash-collecting, rolling tumbleweed-filled vacant lot. or, perhaps a more appropriate analogy would be a community social center, where old neighbors could joke with each other and new neighbors could meet people.
no, no, i've got the analogy now: a community performance space. jpoulos suggested a classic theme (jealousy) and coldchef composed an impromptu haiku epic about it, with contributions from several other members.
so you see, there is good haiku and bad haiku. and it's not just a matter of taste, but one of, ummm...utility.
posted by mlang at 7:42 AM on March 29, 2002
ColdChef's art consists in making the best out of a bad job. His haikus are wonderful because they are offered in an ephemeral spirit, knowing they're going to be deleted. It's a form of generosity. People forget how well written they are. Certainly better, in a literary sense, than 99% of the comments preserved for eternity in the threads that are still with us. And they - and the reactions they inspire - are a hell of a lot of fun.
What I'm saying is that ColdChef's inspiration and sense of opportunity is perfectly compatible with the deletion of the thread. It's a spree. It wouldn't happen if the thread might conceivably stay. That's the charm. It doesn't break any rules and doesn't challenge the MetaFilter ethos, while fully embodying its spirit.
Specially when the thread was initiated by him. If he'd just left we would have been robbed of a lot of laughter, friendly banter and, yes, joy even!
Pancakes and haikus in threads that aren't going to be deleted are entirely different. I don't find them annoying - in fact I enjoy them! - but I agree with rcade that they go against the best interests of a discussion.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 7:42 AM on March 29, 2002
What I'm saying is that ColdChef's inspiration and sense of opportunity is perfectly compatible with the deletion of the thread. It's a spree. It wouldn't happen if the thread might conceivably stay. That's the charm. It doesn't break any rules and doesn't challenge the MetaFilter ethos, while fully embodying its spirit.
Specially when the thread was initiated by him. If he'd just left we would have been robbed of a lot of laughter, friendly banter and, yes, joy even!
Pancakes and haikus in threads that aren't going to be deleted are entirely different. I don't find them annoying - in fact I enjoy them! - but I agree with rcade that they go against the best interests of a discussion.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 7:42 AM on March 29, 2002
yeeeesh. i'm worse than zachsmind. sticking to snappy one-liners from now on. promise.
posted by mlang at 7:45 AM on March 29, 2002
posted by mlang at 7:45 AM on March 29, 2002
the haiku and pancakes were used in the palestine/israel thread in a disruptive manner. they were not intended to contribute to the discussion, but to kill it.
Maybe, but they were attempting to kill a thread that was the second Palestinian/Israeli thread in the same day. I don't know why what was posted to the front page couldn't have been included as an update to the post from earlier in the day.
I agree that the manner was inappropriate. Stopping the thread was not a bad idea, however.
posted by anapestic at 7:50 AM on March 29, 2002
Maybe, but they were attempting to kill a thread that was the second Palestinian/Israeli thread in the same day. I don't know why what was posted to the front page couldn't have been included as an update to the post from earlier in the day.
I agree that the manner was inappropriate. Stopping the thread was not a bad idea, however.
posted by anapestic at 7:50 AM on March 29, 2002
Yay! My first time being dragged into MetaTalk! I'd like to thank the academy for this honor, along with Oprah and my lawyers.
*sob*
Seriously, I reacted rather quickly when I posted the p******s comment, which I regret, but I was angered by the utterly blinkered wording of that post, like the whole situation in the region is some sporting event. I was angry, and I have a fearsome temper, so I thought the best way to express it was to unleash the harmless weapon of p*****e rhetoric. It seemed to me that the post asked a silly opinion question which would result in a string of angry responses that would do nothing except make everyone angrier. I thought, in my moment of passion, that the 'whose side are you on?' question was no different than a 'do you like pancakes/Jerry Lewis/Great White' kind of thread. Something in the sickening overuse of the pancake paradigm seemed analogous to the same sickening overuse of the dreaded Israel vs. Palestine shibboleth.
I prostrate myself humbly before your great and mighty will, and beg for your mercy and forgiveness. I try to be a good citizen of Metafilter. I just let my human nature get the better of me.
...the problem here is that they had nothing to contribute other than their frustration with this notoriously polarizing topic...
In my defense, my contribution to the thread was not limited to the inital pancake grenade. I later summed up my problem with the post, and weighed in as best I could on the topic. I understand my learnéd colleague mlang's frustration with my stupidity at first, but I don't think my contribution was wholly negligable. I tried to make up for it later, if that counts.
posted by evanizer at 7:55 AM on March 29, 2002
*sob*
Seriously, I reacted rather quickly when I posted the p******s comment, which I regret, but I was angered by the utterly blinkered wording of that post, like the whole situation in the region is some sporting event. I was angry, and I have a fearsome temper, so I thought the best way to express it was to unleash the harmless weapon of p*****e rhetoric. It seemed to me that the post asked a silly opinion question which would result in a string of angry responses that would do nothing except make everyone angrier. I thought, in my moment of passion, that the 'whose side are you on?' question was no different than a 'do you like pancakes/Jerry Lewis/Great White' kind of thread. Something in the sickening overuse of the pancake paradigm seemed analogous to the same sickening overuse of the dreaded Israel vs. Palestine shibboleth.
I prostrate myself humbly before your great and mighty will, and beg for your mercy and forgiveness. I try to be a good citizen of Metafilter. I just let my human nature get the better of me.
...the problem here is that they had nothing to contribute other than their frustration with this notoriously polarizing topic...
In my defense, my contribution to the thread was not limited to the inital pancake grenade. I later summed up my problem with the post, and weighed in as best I could on the topic. I understand my learnéd colleague mlang's frustration with my stupidity at first, but I don't think my contribution was wholly negligable. I tried to make up for it later, if that counts.
posted by evanizer at 7:55 AM on March 29, 2002
My pet peeve, just as bad as pancakes, is "Yawn". That and "Next post please!."
posted by MiguelCardoso at 8:16 AM on March 29, 2002
posted by MiguelCardoso at 8:16 AM on March 29, 2002
Yay! My first time being dragged into MetaTalk!
Welcome to the club, ev. Your commemorative smoking jacket and martini glass are in the mail.
And Miguel is right. I'll take goofy humor over pseudo-jaded posturing any day of the week.
posted by jonmc at 8:21 AM on March 29, 2002
Welcome to the club, ev. Your commemorative smoking jacket and martini glass are in the mail.
And Miguel is right. I'll take goofy humor over pseudo-jaded posturing any day of the week.
posted by jonmc at 8:21 AM on March 29, 2002
'yawn' is much much much worse than anything. even a haiku about pancakes. i mean, 'yawn' is just plain mean. it's rude and dismissive and insulting and often directed at newbies who are making their first genuine effort to contribute. crappy usenet snarking is all it is, with no point other than to inflate the fragile ego of some chickenhead who got his lunch money stolen from him every day by a grade-school bully but who grew up to be a rough & tough 'eye-tea guy'...and now it's his turn to do some bullying. machismo for punk-ass fuckwits. lame lame lame.
posted by mlang at 8:34 AM on March 29, 2002
posted by mlang at 8:34 AM on March 29, 2002
As I told Coldchef, I was out all day yesterday, moving and painting (I'm moving to a house outside of San Francisco tomorrow, and was doing preliminary work all day on the place). I couldn't believe the "farts in the wind" that happened while I was out all day. They may seem harmless, but they made the regulars of the site look like a bizarre cult (I got a couple emails asking me what they hell was going on and one saying "look at this, you should just shut down the site").
I see it as a form of heckling, and I don't know what more I can do to discourage it. It's as if someone is making a speech, stating their position, while others in the back shout about pancakes, ponies, and haiku. Just as in public, heckling is bad and not conducive to level-headed debate.
The orginally linked thread was worded poorly for sure, but a couple people making posts saying it's just going to descend into a flamefest and starting some heckling isn't going to improve matters. I saw what was happening and I decided to try and make a *good* comment.
Now, I don't know if the thread turned because I'm me and people seem to listen to what I have to say, but I'm really glad I made the comment I did and turned the talk away from the heckling that was taking place. I hope everyone can see the lesson in it. If you see something that was posted "badly" you have a choice of what you can do. You can say nothing, you can heckle the person making the post or slag them for poor form, or you can try salvaging something from the discussion by making an effort to post something worthwhile.
The next time you see a thread, what are you going to post as a comment?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:39 AM on March 29, 2002 [2 favorites]
I see it as a form of heckling, and I don't know what more I can do to discourage it. It's as if someone is making a speech, stating their position, while others in the back shout about pancakes, ponies, and haiku. Just as in public, heckling is bad and not conducive to level-headed debate.
The orginally linked thread was worded poorly for sure, but a couple people making posts saying it's just going to descend into a flamefest and starting some heckling isn't going to improve matters. I saw what was happening and I decided to try and make a *good* comment.
Now, I don't know if the thread turned because I'm me and people seem to listen to what I have to say, but I'm really glad I made the comment I did and turned the talk away from the heckling that was taking place. I hope everyone can see the lesson in it. If you see something that was posted "badly" you have a choice of what you can do. You can say nothing, you can heckle the person making the post or slag them for poor form, or you can try salvaging something from the discussion by making an effort to post something worthwhile.
The next time you see a thread, what are you going to post as a comment?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:39 AM on March 29, 2002 [2 favorites]
I participated in those shenannigans a bit yesterday, and I do feel Matt was in the right to delete the thread. If ColdChef wants to spend all day goofing around, he should do it on his own blog. There is obviously an audience here, though, and that is why some of us can't help cutting up. Chef went over the top yesterday, and I think he is aware of it.
There is a certain arrogance at work in thinking yourself amusing enough to play class clown in MeFi. I am just as guilty as Chef if not more, ~if only because I am a thousand times more amusing~.
Seriously, though. The haiku shtick is funny for a little while. There is a place for it. If you know where that is, you should head over there and deposit your haiku donations. But what if everyone goofed off as much as Chef did in yesterday's thread? It would, indeed, spell the end of the place.
I can't stop being a goofball. I don't think Chef can either. But I have been trying to cut down on it, because it is a little selfish.
posted by Kafkaesque at 8:52 AM on March 29, 2002
There is a certain arrogance at work in thinking yourself amusing enough to play class clown in MeFi. I am just as guilty as Chef if not more, ~if only because I am a thousand times more amusing~.
Seriously, though. The haiku shtick is funny for a little while. There is a place for it. If you know where that is, you should head over there and deposit your haiku donations. But what if everyone goofed off as much as Chef did in yesterday's thread? It would, indeed, spell the end of the place.
I can't stop being a goofball. I don't think Chef can either. But I have been trying to cut down on it, because it is a little selfish.
posted by Kafkaesque at 8:52 AM on March 29, 2002
I think that HaikuFilter would be an amusing site. You'd have great HaikuTalk discussions where people would call other members out for using sixteen or eighteen syllables. All of this would have to be done in haiku, of course.
There's not enough poetry in the world, for sure. My tongue's a bit in my cheek here, but I'd visit PoetryFilter, or HaikuFilter or, god forbid, SestinaFilter.
Sounds like a good project for you, Cold Chef.
posted by anapestic at 8:59 AM on March 29, 2002
There's not enough poetry in the world, for sure. My tongue's a bit in my cheek here, but I'd visit PoetryFilter, or HaikuFilter or, god forbid, SestinaFilter.
Sounds like a good project for you, Cold Chef.
posted by anapestic at 8:59 AM on March 29, 2002
I love the haikus.
posted by thekorruptor at 9:06 AM on March 29, 2002
posted by thekorruptor at 9:06 AM on March 29, 2002
Oh. My. God.
Is everyone that lacking in real things to complain about? If you don't like the stupid thread, don't read it. Why internalize it as a personal affront?
As was so eloquently stated in Stripes: "Lighten up, Francis."
posted by pardonyou? at 9:14 AM on March 29, 2002
Is everyone that lacking in real things to complain about? If you don't like the stupid thread, don't read it. Why internalize it as a personal affront?
As was so eloquently stated in Stripes: "Lighten up, Francis."
posted by pardonyou? at 9:14 AM on March 29, 2002
This could be the solution to the proliferating over-abundance of FPP's. Require all posters to make their original post in the form of a haiku with at least one pancake reference. The time and discipline required to phrase the posts would discourage thoughtless, hurried posts.
ColdChef, of course, would be restricted to posting in EpicHaikuFilter, a blog that requires all commentary to tell a sweeping theme of romance and passion over the course of at least 150 haikus.
posted by tdismukes at 9:15 AM on March 29, 2002
ColdChef, of course, would be restricted to posting in EpicHaikuFilter, a blog that requires all commentary to tell a sweeping theme of romance and passion over the course of at least 150 haikus.
posted by tdismukes at 9:15 AM on March 29, 2002
Is everyone that lacking in real things to complain about?
We're discussing it, in the hopes of alleviating a situation Matt has named as a problem. I don't think anyone is, or should be, taking this personally.
posted by Kafkaesque at 9:19 AM on March 29, 2002
We're discussing it, in the hopes of alleviating a situation Matt has named as a problem. I don't think anyone is, or should be, taking this personally.
posted by Kafkaesque at 9:19 AM on March 29, 2002
"We're discussing it, in the hopes of alleviating a situation Matt has named as a problem."
I'm sure Matt knows what to look for and doesn't need (or, presumably, want) a bunch of people whining about it. I don't see what needs to be discussed. If Matt sees a haiku or a pancake reference, he can delete the thread. That's the beauty of Matt's position -- he can actually do something about it.
posted by pardonyou? at 9:33 AM on March 29, 2002
I'm sure Matt knows what to look for and doesn't need (or, presumably, want) a bunch of people whining about it. I don't see what needs to be discussed. If Matt sees a haiku or a pancake reference, he can delete the thread. That's the beauty of Matt's position -- he can actually do something about it.
posted by pardonyou? at 9:33 AM on March 29, 2002
Well, pardonyou?, it seems to me that if we agree not to do it in the future, then Matt will have less to worry about, no?
posted by Kafkaesque at 9:37 AM on March 29, 2002
posted by Kafkaesque at 9:37 AM on March 29, 2002
>>>Miguel said: My pet peeve, just as bad as pancakes, is "Yawn". That and "Next post please!
In my best Meg Ryan from "When Harry Met Sally" voice:
Yes,
Yes,
Back on topic: I tend to think of these double-post haiku-filled doomed threads as beautifully fragrant spring flowers, to be appreciated and cherished all the more because of their temporary and fleeting nature.
Ok that's just bullshit. I actually felt guilty after posting in that haiku filled double post thread, and won't do it again. When I was still just a wee lurker hiding in the shrubbery, I hated it when other people pulled that stuff, so I shouldn't be doing it either. I have to set a good example so that everyone doesn't think newbies suck.
posted by iconomy at 9:42 AM on March 29, 2002
In my best Meg Ryan from "When Harry Met Sally" voice:
Yes,
Yes,
YES!
It's insufferably rude, and like mlang said, dismissive. The absolute worst is when it's the first comment, as it can sometimes set the tone of the entire thread.Back on topic: I tend to think of these double-post haiku-filled doomed threads as beautifully fragrant spring flowers, to be appreciated and cherished all the more because of their temporary and fleeting nature.
Ok that's just bullshit. I actually felt guilty after posting in that haiku filled double post thread, and won't do it again. When I was still just a wee lurker hiding in the shrubbery, I hated it when other people pulled that stuff, so I shouldn't be doing it either. I have to set a good example so that everyone doesn't think newbies suck.
posted by iconomy at 9:42 AM on March 29, 2002
"I'm so sorry your cat died."
Yawn.
Damnit, I missed all the fun. Drink syrup and die, Haiku Jackal Highjackers!
posted by StOne at 9:50 AM on March 29, 2002
Yawn.
Damnit, I missed all the fun. Drink syrup and die, Haiku Jackal Highjackers!
posted by StOne at 9:50 AM on March 29, 2002
There's nothing that a good Giant Octopus post wouldn't...
posted by y2karl at 10:03 AM on March 29, 2002
posted by y2karl at 10:03 AM on March 29, 2002
Mlang: the haiku and pancakes were used in the palestine/israel thread in a disruptive manner. they were not intended to contribute to the discussion, but to kill it.
Uh...I prefer to kill conversations by...shutting up, not making idle chit chat(read: reciting haiku).
Think: Bye. Bye! Hang up. No, you hang up. You hang up first. No, YOU hang up first...and so on.
Pardonyou?:I'm sure Matt knows what to look for and doesn't need (or, presumably, want) a bunch of people whining about it. I don't see what needs to be discussed.
He does know what to look for, but it's kinda hard for one person to find what he's looking for when there are 30+ posts per day and countless comments occuring 24/7, no? He has a life of his own, or at least tries valiantly to. If he doesn't want people pointing these things out, presumably for at least some of his convenience, I don't remember reading it. If you'll provide a link to where he made that statement, I'm sure we'll all be happy to stop.
posted by Su at 10:20 AM on March 29, 2002
Uh...I prefer to kill conversations by...shutting up, not making idle chit chat(read: reciting haiku).
Think: Bye. Bye! Hang up. No, you hang up. You hang up first. No, YOU hang up first...and so on.
Pardonyou?:I'm sure Matt knows what to look for and doesn't need (or, presumably, want) a bunch of people whining about it. I don't see what needs to be discussed.
He does know what to look for, but it's kinda hard for one person to find what he's looking for when there are 30+ posts per day and countless comments occuring 24/7, no? He has a life of his own, or at least tries valiantly to. If he doesn't want people pointing these things out, presumably for at least some of his convenience, I don't remember reading it. If you'll provide a link to where he made that statement, I'm sure we'll all be happy to stop.
posted by Su at 10:20 AM on March 29, 2002
Wow...late to the party once again, damn.
The given post sucked. Period. It was baiting and completely worthless so far as style or content. The link given could be found on the front page of any newspaper or any e-news center. This one was on MSNBC. I'm sure I could have found it on CNN, Guardian, or whatever else.
Given that the post sucked, and the poster was trying to bait the audience, I reacted. yevge has done this before. Take a look at y2karl's link in the fourth comment of the thread. This was the front page post:
Israel Captures 50 tons of weapons smuggled from Iran on a Palestinian ship. Palestinians claim the ship has nothing to do with them, even though Israel asserts that the ship's captain and officers are all Palestinian Naval officers. Palestine says it is an Israeli attempt to ruin the mission of the American, Zinni. I think Palestinians are lying here (similar to what they have always done) ... What do you think?
He's done it here before and now he's done it again. When evanizer and I threw up the pancakes and haiku, I was under the assumption that Matt would delete this thread. He should have. This post had NO MERIT. It was not interesting, as it can be seen ANYWHERE, it was not new, and the only discussion a nonsense poll like his could create is bullshit.
Matt didn't delete the post. He commented. Fine, he tried to salvage the post. I gave the thread my comments, and left it at that. I come back today to see that the thread blossomed into something decent, probably because of Matt's comment, yet evanizer's and my comments were still there. Why didn't Matt delete them? Probably because he wanted our carcasses to be hung out to dry in MeTa. Whatever...he wanted to make it an issue that pancakes and haiku annoy him. Good deal. But don't believe, even for a second, that I did this to "derail" the thread. I did this to delete the thread.
posted by BlueTrain at 11:12 AM on March 29, 2002
The given post sucked. Period. It was baiting and completely worthless so far as style or content. The link given could be found on the front page of any newspaper or any e-news center. This one was on MSNBC. I'm sure I could have found it on CNN, Guardian, or whatever else.
Given that the post sucked, and the poster was trying to bait the audience, I reacted. yevge has done this before. Take a look at y2karl's link in the fourth comment of the thread. This was the front page post:
Israel Captures 50 tons of weapons smuggled from Iran on a Palestinian ship. Palestinians claim the ship has nothing to do with them, even though Israel asserts that the ship's captain and officers are all Palestinian Naval officers. Palestine says it is an Israeli attempt to ruin the mission of the American, Zinni. I think Palestinians are lying here (similar to what they have always done) ... What do you think?
He's done it here before and now he's done it again. When evanizer and I threw up the pancakes and haiku, I was under the assumption that Matt would delete this thread. He should have. This post had NO MERIT. It was not interesting, as it can be seen ANYWHERE, it was not new, and the only discussion a nonsense poll like his could create is bullshit.
Matt didn't delete the post. He commented. Fine, he tried to salvage the post. I gave the thread my comments, and left it at that. I come back today to see that the thread blossomed into something decent, probably because of Matt's comment, yet evanizer's and my comments were still there. Why didn't Matt delete them? Probably because he wanted our carcasses to be hung out to dry in MeTa. Whatever...he wanted to make it an issue that pancakes and haiku annoy him. Good deal. But don't believe, even for a second, that I did this to "derail" the thread. I did this to delete the thread.
posted by BlueTrain at 11:12 AM on March 29, 2002
About deleting your posts - does Matt even do that? I've never seen him delete individual posts in a thread before, just entire threads. Going through threads and picking out certain posts to delete would be awfully time consuming and tedious, I would think. Not to mention it would have everyone emailing him and asking why, plus the bantying about of the dreaded C word.
Whatever...he wanted to make it an issue that pancakes and haiku annoy him.......he wanted our carcasses to be hung out to dry in MeTa
He didn't start this thread, rcade did. Kind of reminds me of this thread.
posted by iconomy at 11:51 AM on March 29, 2002
Whatever...he wanted to make it an issue that pancakes and haiku annoy him.......he wanted our carcasses to be hung out to dry in MeTa
He didn't start this thread, rcade did. Kind of reminds me of this thread.
posted by iconomy at 11:51 AM on March 29, 2002
I did this to delete the thread.
That's a terrible idea, BlueTrain. You're trying to create more work for Matt by making a bad link worse, and if he doesn't delete it, newbies are going to think it's OK to trash threads.
If you think something sucks that much, take it to MetaTalk. There's way too much meta-discussion in MetaFilter these days.
posted by rcade at 12:06 PM on March 29, 2002
That's a terrible idea, BlueTrain. You're trying to create more work for Matt by making a bad link worse, and if he doesn't delete it, newbies are going to think it's OK to trash threads.
If you think something sucks that much, take it to MetaTalk. There's way too much meta-discussion in MetaFilter these days.
posted by rcade at 12:06 PM on March 29, 2002
He didn't start this thread, rcade did.
That's my point. Matt's not part of the police. He's the judge, jury, and executioner. We, the members, are the police that call people out, bring them here, and discuss their infraction. Matt weighs out the evidence, rules, and reacts accordingly.
If you think something sucks that much, take it to MetaTalk. There's way too much meta-discussion in MetaFilter these days.
I also think that there are WAY too many call-outs as of recently. We seem to love discussing every fricking infraction that occurs here, and then prattle endlessly until our ability to masturbate becomes annoying, if that's possible.
You may think it's a terrible idea. Okay...but I don't like seeing an etiquette/policy discussion every fucking day. Today there are THREE...ON A FRIDAY! This is being taken too far. Matt should've deleted the thread, or deleted our comments. He was aware of the situation.
posted by BlueTrain at 12:22 PM on March 29, 2002
That's my point. Matt's not part of the police. He's the judge, jury, and executioner. We, the members, are the police that call people out, bring them here, and discuss their infraction. Matt weighs out the evidence, rules, and reacts accordingly.
If you think something sucks that much, take it to MetaTalk. There's way too much meta-discussion in MetaFilter these days.
I also think that there are WAY too many call-outs as of recently. We seem to love discussing every fricking infraction that occurs here, and then prattle endlessly until our ability to masturbate becomes annoying, if that's possible.
You may think it's a terrible idea. Okay...but I don't like seeing an etiquette/policy discussion every fucking day. Today there are THREE...ON A FRIDAY! This is being taken too far. Matt should've deleted the thread, or deleted our comments. He was aware of the situation.
posted by BlueTrain at 12:22 PM on March 29, 2002
BlueTrain, the hope is that by creating a metatalk thread, we prevent that kind of stuff from happening again in the future. Simply deleting the offending comments wont do that. We've gone through pretty much this exact discussion before in Metatalk, but I'd wager it was before you and Evanizer were members. So if this thread helps other people, it was more than worth it.
And honestly, what's the big deal with seeing Metatalk threads?
posted by Doug at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2002
And honestly, what's the big deal with seeing Metatalk threads?
posted by Doug at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2002
And honestly, what's the big deal with seeing Metatalk threads?
Sorry, last comment for a while...but if we continue to have these types of threads, almost on a daily basis, they lose their effectiveness. I personally have no fear of MeTa because I know for all the banter, nothing can be done, short of Matt banning me. On the other hand, if we have a good etiquette/policy thread every couple of weeks, with good links and strong and sincere language, the person who was "called out" will have to take note. They will know that this place means business.
posted by BlueTrain at 1:18 PM on March 29, 2002
Sorry, last comment for a while...but if we continue to have these types of threads, almost on a daily basis, they lose their effectiveness. I personally have no fear of MeTa because I know for all the banter, nothing can be done, short of Matt banning me. On the other hand, if we have a good etiquette/policy thread every couple of weeks, with good links and strong and sincere language, the person who was "called out" will have to take note. They will know that this place means business.
posted by BlueTrain at 1:18 PM on March 29, 2002
This thread reads like an hour of typical (extended) family counseling.
And I'm sorry but our time is up. See you next week!
posted by BentPenguin at 1:30 PM on March 29, 2002
And I'm sorry but our time is up. See you next week!
posted by BentPenguin at 1:30 PM on March 29, 2002
Welcome to the club, ev. Your commemorative smoking jacket and martini glass are in the mail.
If you try extra hard, ev, you may even one day end up in the ultra-fabulous Five-Timers Club like me!
posted by aaron at 1:43 PM on March 29, 2002
If you try extra hard, ev, you may even one day end up in the ultra-fabulous Five-Timers Club like me!
posted by aaron at 1:43 PM on March 29, 2002
"I personally have no fear of MeTa because I know for all the banter, nothing can be done."
Isn't banning effective enough? It may not mean anything to you, it doesn't have to. But if someone is banned, they cease to be a problem to the community as a whole. (although I would argue that if someone didn't care if they were banned, then they didn't care much about being here in the first place)
If you see a thread in meta on a topic you think has been discussed to death, then skip it.
posted by lucien at 1:57 PM on March 29, 2002
Isn't banning effective enough? It may not mean anything to you, it doesn't have to. But if someone is banned, they cease to be a problem to the community as a whole. (although I would argue that if someone didn't care if they were banned, then they didn't care much about being here in the first place)
If you see a thread in meta on a topic you think has been discussed to death, then skip it.
posted by lucien at 1:57 PM on March 29, 2002
Just for a laugh, say that to yourself in a Mike Tyson voice.
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:09 PM on March 29, 2002
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:09 PM on March 29, 2002
BlueTrain: As long as I've been here, there has always been more than a couple of etiquette posts every few weeks. Metatalk has always been pretty active and is usually pretty effective.
For instance, derailing threads through pancakes and jokes was once pretty common. I've done it myself. Then, the issue was brought up in metatalk, and they've been much less frequent. I suspect it'll die down a bit now also. I guess after a while, the evil spectre of bunnies and pancakes will arise again, and we'll be right back here in Metatalk. But so what? As long as people don't take metatalk personally, and hear each other out, I see no reason not to welcome on-topic, constructive metatalk threads.
posted by Doug at 2:11 PM on March 29, 2002
For instance, derailing threads through pancakes and jokes was once pretty common. I've done it myself. Then, the issue was brought up in metatalk, and they've been much less frequent. I suspect it'll die down a bit now also. I guess after a while, the evil spectre of bunnies and pancakes will arise again, and we'll be right back here in Metatalk. But so what? As long as people don't take metatalk personally, and hear each other out, I see no reason not to welcome on-topic, constructive metatalk threads.
posted by Doug at 2:11 PM on March 29, 2002
Heckling Haikus?
If you think about it, that's kind of amazing. Even when we get silly we do it in an interesting way. We are a community, folks, which means sometimes we're serious, sometimes goofy, sometimes downright contentious with eachother. But the reason I love it here is that no matter what we are being, we do it some way that is entertaining in the very least and often downright illuminating.
Even the flames I've recieved here have been some of the best crafted verbal attacks I've ever read. And quite frankly, I hope Kafkaesque and ColdChef(NTM dong_resin and clavdivs) never stop kidding around, at least somewhat. One of the guarantees of any trip to MeFi is that one of the aforementioned people will say something that will send liquid spewing from my nostrils. I do realize that minds capable of being that funny must be capable of some amazing serious thoughts as well, which I, for one, would love to read.
We have the equivalent of a small city hanging out in this little corner of the web and the various things that irk folks are just normal byproducts of a large population, and we've been handling them pretty well, I think.
My better half said that if she stumbled upon a online discussion filled with haikus and pancakes, she'd actually be intrigued rather than put-off. Other online communities get cusskiddies and hate-posting when things get weird. MeFi gets haikus.Haikus for crying out loud. That says a lot for the crew we have here IMHO.
posted by jonmc at 2:24 PM on March 29, 2002
If you think about it, that's kind of amazing. Even when we get silly we do it in an interesting way. We are a community, folks, which means sometimes we're serious, sometimes goofy, sometimes downright contentious with eachother. But the reason I love it here is that no matter what we are being, we do it some way that is entertaining in the very least and often downright illuminating.
Even the flames I've recieved here have been some of the best crafted verbal attacks I've ever read. And quite frankly, I hope Kafkaesque and ColdChef(NTM dong_resin and clavdivs) never stop kidding around, at least somewhat. One of the guarantees of any trip to MeFi is that one of the aforementioned people will say something that will send liquid spewing from my nostrils. I do realize that minds capable of being that funny must be capable of some amazing serious thoughts as well, which I, for one, would love to read.
We have the equivalent of a small city hanging out in this little corner of the web and the various things that irk folks are just normal byproducts of a large population, and we've been handling them pretty well, I think.
My better half said that if she stumbled upon a online discussion filled with haikus and pancakes, she'd actually be intrigued rather than put-off. Other online communities get cusskiddies and hate-posting when things get weird. MeFi gets haikus.Haikus for crying out loud. That says a lot for the crew we have here IMHO.
posted by jonmc at 2:24 PM on March 29, 2002
Yet one tombstone served for both. All around, there were monuments carved with armorial bearings; and on this simple slab of slate—as the curious investigator may still discern, and perplex himself with the purport—there appeared the semblance of an engraved escutcheon. It bore a device, a herald’s wording of which might serve for a motto and brief description of our now concluded legend; so sombre is it, and relieved only by one ever-glowing point of light gloomier than the shadow:—posted by evanizer at 3:07 PM on March 29, 2002
“On a field, sable, the letter A, gules”
yet evanizer's and my comments were still there. Why didn't Matt delete them? Probably because he wanted our carcasses to be hung out to dry in MeTa. Whatever...he wanted to make it an issue that pancakes and haiku annoy him. Good deal.
God damn. What's the old saying about the word "assume?" "Probably because he wanted our carcasses to be hung out to dry?" What kind of pathetic shlub do you think I am? You think I get joy out of toying with people like this? If you actually think your assumption is true, and before you put more words in my mouth and try to read my mind for everyone here, let me tell you that you're way, way off.
I didn't ax the threads because other posters mentioned them. If I remove offensive comment A and B, and comments C and D say "What's up with A? Anyway, I think think foo about bar" and "I don't understand B, but I want to say that I think it's fab." Instead of ruffling two people's feathers ("where did my posts go?!"), I'd have to involve more people, and those people refering to those other threads would wonder why the other things they said were axed as well.
I'd didn't leave them to be an example to anyone, I left them because doug and y2karl mentioned them and I didn't feel like deleting them as well and having to deal with all four people's opinions this time out.
I did this to delete the thread.
That's really fucked up and presumptious of you, and I should remind you I don't have time to deal with this shit 24/7, so from time to time even if a thread warrants deleting I may not be around to do it (as was the case yesterday with the double post thread filled with haiku). I don't want members to think they are god and executioner and do this more often. If you don't like something, either mention it in MetaTalk to ignore it and move on.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:46 PM on March 29, 2002
God damn. What's the old saying about the word "assume?" "Probably because he wanted our carcasses to be hung out to dry?" What kind of pathetic shlub do you think I am? You think I get joy out of toying with people like this? If you actually think your assumption is true, and before you put more words in my mouth and try to read my mind for everyone here, let me tell you that you're way, way off.
I didn't ax the threads because other posters mentioned them. If I remove offensive comment A and B, and comments C and D say "What's up with A? Anyway, I think think foo about bar" and "I don't understand B, but I want to say that I think it's fab." Instead of ruffling two people's feathers ("where did my posts go?!"), I'd have to involve more people, and those people refering to those other threads would wonder why the other things they said were axed as well.
I'd didn't leave them to be an example to anyone, I left them because doug and y2karl mentioned them and I didn't feel like deleting them as well and having to deal with all four people's opinions this time out.
I did this to delete the thread.
That's really fucked up and presumptious of you, and I should remind you I don't have time to deal with this shit 24/7, so from time to time even if a thread warrants deleting I may not be around to do it (as was the case yesterday with the double post thread filled with haiku). I don't want members to think they are god and executioner and do this more often. If you don't like something, either mention it in MetaTalk to ignore it and move on.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:46 PM on March 29, 2002
Matt and everyone: I just want to state that Bluetrain's comments are entirely his/her own, and do not reflect the views of evanizer, this station or the sponsor. Thank you and goodnight.
posted by evanizer at 4:31 PM on March 29, 2002
posted by evanizer at 4:31 PM on March 29, 2002
"I'm all about this kind of comment. The comment stays on topic and links out to another cool site ... "
A few good examples of this technique on the guidelines page might help all of us focus the conversation here a bit. I agree that this is the most effective way to use the MetaFilter medium, rather than "chat-discussion" or "links only." However, it's not an easy thing to do.
posted by sheauga at 6:52 AM on March 30, 2002
A few good examples of this technique on the guidelines page might help all of us focus the conversation here a bit. I agree that this is the most effective way to use the MetaFilter medium, rather than "chat-discussion" or "links only." However, it's not an easy thing to do.
posted by sheauga at 6:52 AM on March 30, 2002
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
Besides, you need to choose sides. You're either one of us MetaTalk mopes who thinks etiquette matters, in which case you know a complaint about a post belongs in MetaTalk, or you're one of the free spirits who won't be bound by rules, in which case you would never complain about a post.
posted by rcade at 5:14 AM on March 29, 2002