LJDRAMA LOL! July 4, 2011 10:59 AM   Subscribe

How has this crap not been deleted already? Editorialized posts about community drama? Better posts about more interesting/important issues have been deleted for less.
posted by Talez to MetaFilter-Related at 10:59 AM (1114 comments total) 10 users marked this as a favorite

I am so fucking livid with that thread right now I am seriously considering disabling my account. This is a great community but the self-righteous bullshit and over-moderating needs to stop pronto.
posted by MattMangels at 11:02 AM on July 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


Sorry I meant to link to the threat itself. Orthogonality's little godwinning was pretty terrible the but thread itself is garbage.
posted by Talez at 11:03 AM on July 4, 2011


Thread itself. I can't type today.
posted by Talez at 11:03 AM on July 4, 2011


You need some coffee.
posted by the cuban at 11:04 AM on July 4, 2011 [5 favorites]


The atheist community is pretty big (on the internets, at least). Lots of mefites are atheists. Lots of mefites are bloggers.

Also, what's the "over-moderating" you're talking about, Matt? I see jessamyn has deleted some comments that were apparently dragging arguments/history in from other threads, which has pretty much never been okay here.
posted by rtha at 11:05 AM on July 4, 2011


The post has gotten one flag, that's basically saying to us one of two things

1. no one thinks it's a deleteworthy post
2. no one is around

As much as I don't enjoy this sort of posts, MeFi is not for things that only I am interested in. It hits a few points that this community seems to like discussing [the atheist community, how to speak to women, drama in other communities] so it's here.

This is a great community but the self-righteous bullshit and over-moderating needs to stop pronto.


You made two comments basically calling the entire site a bunch of crappy names and called out a user who was not particpating in the thread. I'd like you to remain a community member, but you seem to be having trouble dialing it back today.

And yeah holiday weekends seem to bring out the worst in people for whatever reason. I'm sorry about that but I think people who want to argue can argue there and other people should flag and move on. There's nothing deleteworthy about that post, as annoying as it is.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:05 AM on July 4, 2011 [16 favorites]


Really? Even if being Metafilter's analogue to TMZ or Perez Hilton isn't deleteworthy the framing of the post sure as hell is.

Or do you get a free pass on editorializing because it's pointless loldrama involving atheists being misogynistic?
posted by Talez at 11:08 AM on July 4, 2011


you seem to be having trouble dialing it back today.

Well I'm just angry because some, no, quite a lot of people on this site have trouble dialing back the finger-wagging and knee-jerk condemnations every single time race or gender issues come up just to show how liberal and PC they are. It annoys me because that kind of stuff makes casual observers hate anything that remotely smacks of liberalism. And yeah, that person was not participating in the thread but her comment was completely relevant to my point. And my complaint about over-moderating wasn't just about that thread, but how tangents are not allowed and the conversation can never veer too far off-topic. This policy has probably deleted some stupid ramblings that don't go anywhere, but it's probably deleted even more interesting tangential discussions.
posted by MattMangels at 11:12 AM on July 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


Happy 4th of July!
posted by cj_ at 11:12 AM on July 4, 2011 [9 favorites]


That thread is persuasive evidence that there is no God.
posted by Trurl at 11:16 AM on July 4, 2011 [8 favorites]


I do not accept that Livejournal is an "analogue to TMZ or Perez Hilton". Some of the most interesting net conversations take place in and around Livejournal.
posted by Danila at 11:16 AM on July 4, 2011 [10 favorites]


This is a great community but the self-righteous bullshit and over-moderating needs to stop pronto.

Telling folks to stop doing the metacommentary thing in thread is a bog-standard part of thread moderation here, and has been for years and years. If you're frustrated about something about the site or the community and need to talk about it publicly, that's fine, but you do it here, not in the middle of a thread. That's just how this place works, and making a point doing it more in the original thread after we've stepped in to say "cut it out" is not okay.

And my complaint about over-moderating wasn't just about that thread, but how tangents are not allowed and the conversation can never veer too far off-topic. This policy has probably deleted some stupid ramblings that don't go anywhere, but it's probably deleted even more interesting tangential discussions.

I think you have a view of what we do and don't trim re: conversational tangents that is badly skewed by something here, because we almost never say "don't have that side conversation" on the blue; we mostly take action when it's a "that's a metatalk issue" situation or a "please don't start a random fight in here" situation. Tangents are fine. They happen constantly.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:18 AM on July 4, 2011 [8 favorites]


It's going to get lively, but it's an interesting incident and it touches a lot of MeFite buttons. I see no problem.
posted by Decani at 11:19 AM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


Lou Donaldson's version of 'Who's Making Love' was sampled in Craig G's 'Droppin' Science.'
posted by box at 11:22 AM on July 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


I thought the post was fine, but I knew better than to comment and get that thread in my recent activity after having to bail out of another "omg poor men picked on because women are annoyed about sexism" thread this week for my own sanity. I'm not surprised a thread involving atheism and feminism went south pretty fast.

Mods, I'm sorry y'all are having to spend your holiday dealing with this.
posted by immlass at 11:25 AM on July 4, 2011 [5 favorites]


Remember when Matt would close down Mefi when he wanted to go on holidays? Those were good times.
posted by Razzle Bathbone at 11:28 AM on July 4, 2011 [19 favorites]


quite a lot of people on this site have trouble dialing back the finger-wagging and knee-jerk condemnations every single time race or gender issues come up just to show how liberal and PC they are

I didn't comment on the thread because I have nothing interesting or useful to say about it, but as a general rule, I have trouble dialing back my finger-wagging/etc when race or gender issues come up because holy crap I think it's bad to act in a racist or sexist manner. I'm not really sure what that has to do with being liberal or PC1.

1. I'm more of an NDP/Green supporter. Although the old Tories were ok.
posted by Lemurrhea at 11:30 AM on July 4, 2011 [11 favorites]


Metatalk: And yeah, that person was not participating in the thread but her comment was completely relevant to my point.
posted by hal_c_on at 11:33 AM on July 4, 2011 [4 favorites]


quite a lot of people on this site have trouble dialing back the finger-wagging and knee-jerk condemnations every single time race or gender issues come up just to show how liberal and PC they are.

Alternately, a problem is that you have decided that people who are participating in earnest with passion and genuine convinction are posers who are trying to score PC points.

That's a hell of an uncharitable read on the discussion. I do not believe you are participating in it with openess to a contrary viewpoint, or even openess to the idea that those viewpoints are being presented honestly.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:34 AM on July 4, 2011 [45 favorites]


Metatalk: that's right, I bookmarked that comment JUST SO I COULD BE PISSED OFF ABOUT IT AGAIN AT A LATER DATE!
posted by so_gracefully at 11:35 AM on July 4, 2011 [16 favorites]


I think it's bad to act in a racist or sexist manner. I'm not really sure what that has to do with being liberal or PC.

orthogonality should have been able to express his minority view of what was at issue in this episode without getting rhetorically stomped for it.
posted by Trurl at 11:36 AM on July 4, 2011 [13 favorites]


Trurl, the problem with orthogonality's post in particular is you can't go into a thread like that with a complete powder keg of a viewpoint without a veritable mountain of evidence to back it up.

Anecdotally guys do experience the behaviour and I have cited a study many months previously that showed that attractiveness does contribute to the perception of sexual harassment but going in like that is just asking to be stomped for it.
posted by Talez at 11:39 AM on July 4, 2011


There is a risk when you come in with guns drawn that others will draw theirs too.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:40 AM on July 4, 2011 [11 favorites]


orthogonality should have been able to express his minority view of what was at issue in this episode without getting rhetorically stomped for it.

It has 30+ favorites and counting. I don't think its a minority view.
posted by hal_c_on at 11:41 AM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


Matt M: "the finger-wagging and knee-jerk condemnations every single time race or gender issues come up just to show how liberal and PC they are"

Exactly. Similar scripts every single time, starting long before you joined MeFi. You are becoming a true Mefi veteran, and a lot of us experienced the same rage you feel now. You are reaching another meta-plateau, group dynamics in a microcosm.
posted by Ardiril at 11:42 AM on July 4, 2011 [4 favorites]


going in like that is just asking to be stomped for it

You don't see what you did there.
posted by Trurl at 11:42 AM on July 4, 2011 [13 favorites]


Favorites don't reflect how popular a viewpoint are. A lot of people use them as bookmarks.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:42 AM on July 4, 2011 [8 favorites]


I'm not really sure what that has to do with being liberal or PC.

I'm more of a minicomputer person myself.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:43 AM on July 4, 2011 [4 favorites]


Favorites don't reflect how popular a viewpoint are. A lot of people use them as bookmarks.

Everyone always says that, but I think really only a few people treat favorites as a bookmark. Most people, I am guessing, treat favorites as favorites.
posted by Falconetti at 11:45 AM on July 4, 2011 [26 favorites]


"She totally would have been all over his junk if only he'd been attractive because the world is a vale of tears and woe to unattractive men and it's terrible that I can't just walk up to a stranger and ask to get naked with her without risking being perceived as creepy" is not a goddamned minority view worthy of careful consideration, it's yet another in a long series of guys barfing up their lady issues on the internet. He said something confrontational and disgusting, and the people he confronted were disgusted.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:45 AM on July 4, 2011 [128 favorites]


I favorite some of the particularly reprehensible things said on Metafilter for the inevitable war-crimes tribunal.
posted by blue_beetle at 11:46 AM on July 4, 2011 [13 favorites]


Most people, I am guessing, treat favorites as favorites.

Yeah; its pretty simple.
posted by hal_c_on at 11:46 AM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


"rhetorically stomped"? Give me a break. If you want to participate in a conversation you take the risk that people will disagree with you.

If you want to say things and have no one respond, you can do that, but you can't do it here.
posted by the young rope-rider at 11:47 AM on July 4, 2011 [18 favorites]


Most people, I am guessing, treat favorites as favorites.

Pehaps. But we don't know, and therefore can't claim that they represent anything specific.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:47 AM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


Favorites don't reflect how popular a viewpoint are. A lot of people use them as bookmarks.

For posts, sure, I believe you. For comments, particularly comments in threads like that, no way. When we've had the favorite discussions in the past, many commenters have explicity said that they use favoriting to show support. This is held up as a positive for their continued use.
posted by bonehead at 11:49 AM on July 4, 2011 [2 favorites]


just to show how liberal and PC they are.

Yeah, that's totally why those of us who participate in these threads and who call out out sexist behavior do it. To show how liberal we are. Not because shitty behavior and comments need to be called out. No, it's never that. It's to score points on the PC scale - get enough, and you win stuff, like blenders. It's awesome.

orthogonality should have been able to express his minority view of what was at issue in this episode without getting rhetorically stomped for it.


Well, I think he should have been able to express his (minority?) view without having to be all "Girls only like it when hot guys hit on them amirite" because that is a stupid fucking thing to say, and ortho is not stupid.
posted by rtha at 11:49 AM on July 4, 2011 [60 favorites]


And here I thought I'd have to go outside for fireworks and explosoins!
posted by cavalier at 11:50 AM on July 4, 2011 [4 favorites]


[re: delete worthy] ...the framing of the post sure as hell is. Or do you get a free pass on editorializing because it's pointless loldrama involving atheists being misogynistic?

I missed the editorializing. I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems pretty well balanced post. It states the conflict, the individuals involved, and what their positions are. Everything is linked or taken from context.
posted by cjorgensen at 11:51 AM on July 4, 2011


it's yet another in a long series of guys barfing up their lady issues on the internet. He said something confrontational and disgusting...

If that were true, the mods would have deleted the comment.
posted by Trurl at 11:51 AM on July 4, 2011


Talez: "Really? Even if being Metafilter's analogue to TMZ or Perez Hilton isn't deleteworthy the framing of the post sure as hell is. Or do you get a free pass on editorializing because it's pointless loldrama involving atheists being misogynistic?"

I absolutely take issue with this and would like to respond: I go out of my way not to editorialize when I post to MeFi. That post is entirely composed of quotes and a straightforward recap of the gist of what happened, with linked context. When MattMangels questioned one sentence I used, I replied right away to point out that I was quoting Dawkins himself in my paraphrase. I have not participated in the discussion otherwise.

I think this characterization is incorrect.
posted by flex at 11:51 AM on July 4, 2011 [8 favorites]


I guess my point is that if we start arguing about how many favorites a comment gets, then we run the risk of people appealing to the popularity of a comment rather than to its content.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:53 AM on July 4, 2011 [5 favorites]


This is part of my personal continuing problem with favorites.
posted by bonehead at 11:54 AM on July 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


I favorite some of the particularly reprehensible things said on Metafilter for the inevitable war-crimes tribunal.

Considering you only get a hundred a day, it's like Sophie's Choice playing out every twenty minutes.
posted by griphus at 11:56 AM on July 4, 2011 [11 favorites]


If that were true, the mods would have deleted the comment

I don't think the mods delete comments for that reason.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:59 AM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


"rhetorically stomped"? Give me a break. If you want to participate in a conversation you take the risk that people will disagree with you.

Disagreement: You couldn't be more wrong and here is why I think so.

Stomping: some comments are just dumb but then now and again there are comments which are not only spectacularly, face-shreddingly dumb but also provide a pathos-sodden window into the life of the person making it.
posted by Trurl at 12:00 PM on July 4, 2011 [23 favorites]


you can't go into a thread like that with a complete powder keg of a viewpoint

You can on the 4th of July!

GRAR for some, tiny American flags for others!
posted by amyms at 12:02 PM on July 4, 2011 [10 favorites]


My theory is that the heat makes people crazy and the only way to compensate is blowing things up.
posted by fuq at 12:03 PM on July 4, 2011


"Dawkins still doesn't get it" isn't editorializing?

My mistake. I'll remember that for next time.
posted by Talez at 12:05 PM on July 4, 2011


"Dawkins still doesn't get it" isn't editorializing?

Dawkins said he didn't get it in the comment linked with those words. It would have been a direct quote if the OP had written it "Dawkins: 'No, I obviously don't get it.'".
posted by immlass at 12:09 PM on July 4, 2011 [15 favorites]


That thread is persuasive evidence that there is no God.

Funny, I was taking it as confirmation of the fact that Hell is other people.
posted by never used baby shoes at 12:12 PM on July 4, 2011 [38 favorites]



If you want to say things and have no one respond, you can do that, but you can't do it here.


I know I'm not the only one who has managed that trick.
posted by Forktine at 12:16 PM on July 4, 2011 [5 favorites]


For the record, I use favorites as bookmarks.

And now I wish I had favorited that heavily favorited comment that said something like "NOBODY IS KEEPING A FUCKING RECORD".

PS: And if someone's going to link to that comment now, could you please also dig up the one about this 21st century life being amazing.. listing out all the stuff we take for granted that is basically just miraculous in view of what we've had historically (open the tap and get clean water to drink!).
posted by vidur at 12:21 PM on July 4, 2011


"Sorry I meant to link to the threat itself. Orthogonality's little godwinning was pretty terrible the but thread itself is garbage.
posted by Talez at 2:03 PM
"

Orthgonality Did no Godwinning in that comment. He would have had to specifically compare someone to Hitler or Nazis or it's just another comment from a mysogynistic sexist missing the point of the post.
posted by longsleeves at 12:33 PM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


Vidur, I can tell you that second one comes from a Louis CK rant, everything is amazing and nobody is happy. I've seen a few comments based on the truth underlying that skit including one of my own.

Here's the rant of his.
This is what I had to say, but I don't know if that's quite what you were looking for.

As for the nobody keeping a record, that's sort of a common refrain around here about favorites. That's mostly true, but I wouldn't unfavorite this comment. Just in case.
posted by Saydur at 12:38 PM on July 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


Perhaps. But we don't know, and therefore can't claim that they represent anything specific.

Favorites almost always represent simple agreement, and it ain't hard to tell either. If somebody's got a hundred, two hundred or so favorites, or less, they're probably using them as bookmarks. If somebody's got over a thousand, they're using them as upvotes. People don't keep thousands and thousands of bookmarks.

(cue exceptional person taking exception, but come on)
posted by furiousthought at 12:45 PM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


Hey, I'm not going to bet my favorites that you're wrong.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:47 PM on July 4, 2011


Saydur, thanks. You're right, and many people have said similar things ever since, I guess. But I found the specific comment I was thinking about. It's this one by EatTheWeak.

And the "for the record" comment I have in mind is someone being really upset by people constantly saying "for the record" because WTF! NOBODY IS KEEPING A RECORD OF YOUR THOUGHTS!
posted by vidur at 12:47 PM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


(cue exceptional person taking exception, but come on)

Or they could be using favorites to indicate something else entirely.
posted by [citation needed] at 12:49 PM on July 4, 2011


I was following the Pharyngula thread until I realized that it was messing with my blood pressure. Thus I didn't even go near the post on the blue. I've gotten better at that. But I still made the mistake of getting into the topless thread here. Hey, I'm working at it.
posted by Splunge at 12:49 PM on July 4, 2011


If that were true, the mods would have deleted the comment.

Trurl, you know damn well that's not true at all. The mods often have to leave shitty comments like that in place when the discussion then becomes significantly about the shit contained within the shitty comment, and deleting the comment would leave a weird hole of missing context in the thread.

Please don't pretend you aren't well aware of how things work here.
posted by palomar at 12:50 PM on July 4, 2011


Trurl: “orthogonality should have been able to express his minority view of what was at issue in this episode without getting rhetorically stomped for it.”

orthogonality is wrong. It's not cruel or evil to point that out.

hal_c_on: “It has 30+ favorites and counting. I don't think its a minority view.”

Yes, this is certainly true, since as we all know there are only 59 people on Metafilter.
posted by koeselitz at 12:51 PM on July 4, 2011 [17 favorites]


Vidur, yeah, that was a great comment. Really put that optimism out there. Thanks for finding and linking it, just feels good to even read that again.
posted by Saydur at 12:51 PM on July 4, 2011


Talez: ""Dawkins still doesn't get it" isn't editorializing?

My mistake. I'll remember that for next time.
"

Hey, you can also remember that people explained that was pretty much explaining the man's position as he himself described it -- within four comments of the original post. And then you can remember your passive aggressive sulking, too. Perhaps you will feel embarrassed, perhaps not. Who can say.
posted by boo_radley at 12:52 PM on July 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


Happy 4th of July, mods! Go barbeque!
posted by Justinian at 12:59 PM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


Talez, seriously – that seems like a really interesting and vital conversation to me. It's a little contentious, but that comes with the territory. Conversations about sexism are argued with seriousness and passion here. That's not a bad thing.

Really, I'm wondering what exactly you think is so offensive about that thread. Why is it so terrible that people have a discussion about something important?
posted by koeselitz at 1:01 PM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


quite a lot of people on this site have trouble dialing back the finger-wagging and knee-jerk condemnations every single time race or gender issues come up just to show how liberal and PC they are.

Seems to me like you're hauling around a way bigger and more cynical chip on your shoulder than the most strident OMFG Shamerer.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:12 PM on July 4, 2011


Justinian: "Happy 4th of July, mods! Go barbeque!"

If you need flames for the charcoal just check back here occasionally.
posted by Splunge at 1:13 PM on July 4, 2011 [4 favorites]


I definitely sympathize with the woman in this situation, and I find these discussions really interesting because I think there's some real contradictions in the advice being given to men.

When a nerdy, mildly-socially inept man (or woman!) posts on the Green something along the lines of "I really like [person], and I think [person] might like me back. What should I do?", there is a resounding chorus that answers "make the first move! but respect [person] if they says no". And I think that's good advice, in general! Be assertive, but respectful!

But then we get threads like this, where women talk about how hard it is to be constantly hit on. And Christ, I can only imagine what that's like, but I don't envy them at all.

Now, you and I know that there is a sea of context-dependent cues that allow you to be forward at times without being skeevy (in this case, the woman explicitly talking about not enjoying being hit on is a pretty glaring one). But for the guys who have trouble with women in the first place, that's just begging the question and I can understand the frustration: "Make the first move!" vs "only if she's definitely interested" is a difficult path to navigate for the best of us. I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that I jump into every nerd-dating question to push OkCupid.

Finally, I think it's a bit disingenuous to characterize ortho's comment as "if he was hot she would have said yes". It's a fair point that the difference between creepy and romantic often comes down to whether the woman is already interested in/attracted to the dude. Agreeing with that statement doesn't imply that it's ok to indiscriminately hit on women.
posted by auto-correct at 1:17 PM on July 4, 2011 [47 favorites]


...because I think there's some real contradictions in the advice being given to men.

What I personally find infuriating about this thread is the way people are dragging their personal baggage into a situation that's pretty much completely clear-cut. Don't hit on women in places where they can't leave the situation if they want to! Especially don't do it in isolated places like elevators or dark alleys where they have no idea what the consequences will be if they upset you!

I don't see how this basic guideline is remotely controversial. How is this not obvious?
posted by gerryblog at 1:26 PM on July 4, 2011 [20 favorites]


What the women here say for the most part, at least in my reading, is "it sucks to be hit on out of the blue all the time". If a woman here has said "I was really attracted to that guy, but then he started hitting on me, ugh", I'm not aware of it. So I don't think there is a contradiction in the advice for those shy men, because those guys, at least in your example, are talking about escalating a pre-existing relationship where there appears to be signals that that would be welcome. These are the kinds of factors that make advances, if not necessarily desired, at least not creepy.
posted by Errant at 1:27 PM on July 4, 2011 [2 favorites]


Trurl, you know damn well that's not true at all. ... Please don't pretend you aren't well aware of how things work here.

I believe the comment remains because it is well within the parameters of acceptable MeFi discourse. You apparently believe that it remains because too much thread has grown around it. Although any random comment is more likely to be explained by the former than the latter, they are both plausible explanations here. In the absence of a mod comment explaining the decision, we have no evidence either way.

Why then can you not simply disagree with me? Why must you accuse me of arguing in bad faith - and in such a personalized way?

Unless, by my defending the legitimacy of orthogonality's comment (which is not the same as necessarily agreeing with it), I have somehow made myself an enemy to you?
posted by Trurl at 1:27 PM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


I don't really understand the criteria. Tammy Camp was a big hit here too, after the initial comment was deleted.
posted by Ideefixe at 1:29 PM on July 4, 2011


Finally, I think it's a bit disingenuous to characterize ortho's comment as "if he was hot she would have said yes". It's a fair point that the difference between creepy and romantic often comes down to whether the woman is already interested in/attracted to the dude. Agreeing with that statement doesn't imply that it's ok to indiscriminately hit on women.

That's a pretty charitable reading of:

Fact is, had she fancied this guy (had he been (like the best coffee) hotter, richer, or smoother), this wouldn't have been an issue. [...] But because this guy was too nervous, too inept, too fat, too geeky, whatever, his polite pick-up line becomes some sort of misogynistic oppression.

But it's a much better argument. Yes indeed, if Elevator Guy (regardless of his level of hotness!) had taken the time to know the lady and gauge her level of interest, it would not have been creepy. That's the crux of the creepy/romantic divide.
posted by Freyja at 1:29 PM on July 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


Orthogonality's little godwinning

orthogonality godwined it first? Shit....
posted by Chuckles at 1:29 PM on July 4, 2011


Unless, by my defending the legitimacy of orthogonality's comment (which is not the same as necessarily agreeing with it), I have somehow made myself an enemy to you?

This is a little over the top. By pointing out that you know how things work here, I am not tacitly declaring myself to be your enemy. Come on.
posted by palomar at 1:30 PM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


The post has gotten one flag, that's basically saying to us one of two things

1. no one thinks it's a deleteworthy post
2. no one is around


*shakes cash box* Hi, everyone, I'm taking up a collection to buy vodka for the mods when everyone comes back in from barbecues and road trips or whatever, sees that post, and dumps 86-gabillion flags on it and the servers turn sentient just to avoid crashing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:30 PM on July 4, 2011 [10 favorites]


Favorites don't reflect how popular a viewpoint are. A lot of people use them as bookmarks.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:42 PM on July 4


Fancy a bet? Let's ask everyone who favourited that comment whether they actually liked it or whether they were just using it as a bookmark so that they could... I dunno, AZ, what? Go back and hate on it in quiet moments? 20 bucks that at least 90% actually liked the comment? You game? I am.
posted by Decani at 1:33 PM on July 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


In the absence of a mod comment explaining the decision, we have no evidence either way.

It was not-removable by the time I saw it. It was out of line. In a slower-moving thread I would have removed it. If it wasn't a huge holiday and I wasn't trying to have a good time with my boyfriend and neighbors I might have removed it. The world is complicated. You are not wrong, but neither are you right. Usually that level of calling-out of other people would have gotten axed. These are not usual times.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:36 PM on July 4, 2011 [6 favorites]


I ALREADY SAID I WILL NOT BET.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:37 PM on July 4, 2011 [4 favorites]


I don't like Astro Zombie's most recent comment, but I have favourited it.
posted by ODiV at 1:38 PM on July 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


it's just another comment from a mysogynistic sexist missing the point of the post.
posted by longsleeves at 8:33 PM on July 4


You seriously think ortho is a misogynist sexist? Seriously? No, I really want to know.
posted by Decani at 1:38 PM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


I ALREADY SAID I WILL NOT BET.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:37 PM on July 4


I know you did. But I'm trying to persuade you to change your mind. The reason I'm doing that is because I think the reason you will not bet is that you know damned well you would lose. Right?
posted by Decani at 1:39 PM on July 4, 2011


In a slower-moving thread I would have removed it.
Which comment are you referring to? Ortho's?
posted by joost de vries at 1:43 PM on July 4, 2011


These threads are always difficult. I have to stifle my immediate defensive reaction for some reason and I have no idea why.

I read, "Some dude came on to me in the elevator and it was uncomfortable." and I think in an outrageous voice, "What the hell, can I not do anything without making a woman feel uncomfortable!?"

Then I read some comments and realize that no one was saying, "You can't talk to women" or anything remotely like it and I can't figure out why I got that impression.

And I'm not even talking to strangers that often anyway, nor am I hitting on anyone because I'm seriously off the market. And I can't figure out why I get so defensive. It's interesting.

It's a good thing I've (mostly) learned to stop commenting immediately after reading a subject heading and a couple pull-quotes.
posted by ODiV at 1:44 PM on July 4, 2011 [40 favorites]


When a nerdy, mildly-socially inept man (or woman!) posts on the Green something along the lines of "I really like [person], and I think [person] might like me back. What should I do?", there is a resounding chorus that answers "make the first move! but respect [person] if they says no". And I think that's good advice, in general! Be assertive, but respectful!

But then we get threads like this, where women talk about how hard it is to be constantly hit on. And Christ, I can only imagine what that's like, but I don't envy them at all.

Now, you and I know that there is a sea of context-dependent cues that allow you to be forward at times without being skeevy (in this case, the woman explicitly talking about not enjoying being hit on is a pretty glaring one). But for the guys who have trouble with women in the first place, that's just begging the question and I can understand the frustration: "Make the first move!" vs "only if she's definitely interested" is a difficult path to navigate for the best of us. I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that I jump into every nerd-dating question to push OkCupid.


DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!!

This whole affair has probably set this poor guy's social skills and confidence around women back to the stone age. But God forbid we consider the male perspective on this, or even entertain the idea that a male perspective on these things even exists. I guess that's my white male privilege talking.
posted by MattMangels at 1:45 PM on July 4, 2011 [11 favorites]


But God forbid we consider the male perspective on this, or even entertain the idea that a male perspective on these things even exists.

So if I don't share that perspective, does that mean I'm not a male?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:47 PM on July 4, 2011 [9 favorites]


MattMangels: " I guess that's my white male privilege talking"

Well, the first step in overcoming a problem is admitting you have a problem.
posted by ShawnStruck at 1:48 PM on July 4, 2011 [21 favorites]


Question for Angry Mefi Men:

... which part of her response fills you with fury? That a woman said no, or that a woman has asked men to be more sensitive?

And ... (as so well stated in the thread) ...

- ... if a stated goal of atheist associations [metafilter] is to increase its proportion of women to men, then it is a very big deal. Behavior that will make women uncomfortable will drive them away.

I am feeling very uncomfortable about the way women are being treated on metafilter.
posted by Surfurrus at 1:48 PM on July 4, 2011 [7 favorites]


I figured orthogonality's post was stating the obvious: that actions that are charming and intriguing in one situation between two people will be weird and uncomfortable-making if you change the scenario slightly. The Onion has made the point more artfully, but I am baffled by why the general idea would be controversial to anyone.

Is there anyone who thinks that someone who looks like Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie is not given more latitude in social situations than someone looking like Danny DeVito or Rhea Perlman?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:49 PM on July 4, 2011 [13 favorites]


Which comment are you referring to? Ortho's?

No, the one calling ortho out in a sort of shitty manner that followed it. The one Trurl was talking about. Orthogonality is welcome to have his opinions and he knows enough about how folks interact here that I think he knows what's likely to be unpopular and he can handle that on his own. Even unpopular opinions shouldn't be shouted down.

But God forbid we consider the male perspective on this

You're welcome to continue trying to have a conversation in this manner, but it's likely to be about as useful to you as the one over at MeFi. There are many men talking about their perspectives (of varying sorts, not all in lock-step with whatever you seem to think the only approved perspectives are) there and here and if you're not seeing them I'm not sure what the problem is.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:49 PM on July 4, 2011 [11 favorites]


I know you did. But I'm trying to persuade you to change your mind. The reason I'm doing that is because I think the reason you will not bet is that you know damned well you would lose. Right?

It's because I don't really care. As I said, my concern is that people may start arguing the value of their opinion based on how many favorites they get. So it is useful to remember that favorites are no evidence of popularity, much less rightness.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:49 PM on July 4, 2011 [2 favorites]


Favorites almost always represent simple agreement,

I agree with this. To which I would add:

1. yes, in general, favorites represent agreement with what has been said.
2. no single favorite can be assumed to represent agreement with what has been said.

Or we could just keep on arguing about it.
posted by philip-random at 1:50 PM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


That thread and this one are making me a little sad. I'm going out into the sun for a bit. Happy 4th, y'all.
posted by smirkette at 1:50 PM on July 4, 2011 [3 favorites]


Sorry, the first clause of that second sentence should be "But God forbid we consider the male's perspective on this", i.e. the guy in the elevator's perspective.
posted by MattMangels at 1:50 PM on July 4, 2011


This whole affair has probably set this poor guy's social skills and confidence around women back to the stone age.

OMG - that poor poor man. Now instead of hitting upon female conference attendees in otherwise unoccupied elevators in the early morning , he'll be reduced to clubbing them upn the heads first thus eliminating the nasty after-blog consequences.

Oh my that poor man.
posted by Poet_Lariat at 1:51 PM on July 4, 2011 [16 favorites]


MattMangels, I feel for you. No sarcasm!

You're experiencing firsthand how the dynamics arising out of gender inequality are hurting men as much as they're hurting women. Everyone would be more relaxed about these things if there were no reasons to be on our guard.
posted by Freyja at 1:51 PM on July 4, 2011 [17 favorites]


Decani, I frequently use comments as bookmarks. Especially in long threads, when I don't have time to read the whole thing at once and I don't want to make a dumb comment simply so that the thread pops up in my recent activity. Sometimes I'll also favorite comments that I've flagged as offensive in some way -- it's a little easier for me to follow up on them later and see if they got deleted or called out or whatever.

Some people use favorites in ways that are different than the way you use them. It's not a good reason for fighting.
posted by palomar at 1:52 PM on July 4, 2011 [1 favorite]


But God forbid we consider the male perspective on this, or even entertain the idea that a male perspective on these things even exists.

Actually, just above you is ODiV's comment which I would honestly like to point out as a really great and excellent example of doing it right. I really don't see any usefulness to the idea that men aren't welcome in a discussion of how men and women interact, and I really really would love to see more examples of the moment ODiV describes - where he realizes his gut reaction may not be a product solely of the situation presented.

I mean, I get it, I really do. Unpacking a reaction like that is not easy to do and it's not comfortable for the person doing the reacting or the subsequent unpacking. And I think that when someone does it anyway, and acknowledges doing so in a public space, it's downright heroic. I really mean that.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 1:55 PM on July 4, 2011 [9 favorites]


Favourites are cool as sort of reverse bookmarks. When I see a name I don't recognise I can click a couple of times and see a list of popular comments/posts they've made, which usually leads me down at least one interesting rabbit hole I missed the first time around.

I fave for bookmark, for upvote, and because I'm on a mobile browser and I'm trying to scroll.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 1:57 PM on July 4, 2011


Actually, just above you is ODiV's comment which I would honestly like to point out as a really great and excellent example of doing it right. I really don't see any usefulness to the idea that men aren't welcome in a discussion of how men and women interact, and I really really would love to see more examples of the moment ODiV describes - where he realizes his gut reaction may not be a product solely of the situation presented.


Given that you were the one who made the nasty thread-shitting comment being actively discussed in this thread, maybe you're not a good judge of what constitutes an acceptable suppression of gut reactions
posted by nasreddin at 1:58 PM on July 4, 2011 [4 favorites]


This is a great community but the self-righteous bullshit and over-moderating needs to stop pronto.

It's been like this for as long as jessamyn's been a moderator, which is probably a good thing.

She'll delete a lot of comments, and I also tend to think the Jezebel Sex Positive Rape Squad has installed itself into the front page here, but