This isn't Pirate Bay August 19, 2013 6:34 PM Subscribe
Blasdelb, Metafilter is not an academic institution or a lending library. We don't get to use the site to redistribute copyrighted works like journal articles in threads about science, or MP3s in music threads, etc. People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread, and more than likely we do not need proxy access through your library, as impressed as we all are by your library card. What you're doing is illegal, but more to the point, it helps publishing houses justify onerous terms to libraries I use for my research, which aggravates me to no end when I can't get access to articles related to my work. What you are doing sucks, so please knock it off. Thanks.
I have no dog in this fight, but don't see how offering to one-off email people journal articles for their own personal use is hugely problematic.
posted by killdevil at 6:39 PM on August 19, 2013 [42 favorites]
posted by killdevil at 6:39 PM on August 19, 2013 [42 favorites]
I guess we have to ask a lawyer on this one since he claims he is not violating his agreements or the law. Generally though I don't think this site is super strict with copyright.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:39 PM on August 19, 2013
posted by Drinky Die at 6:39 PM on August 19, 2013
The comment you link to ends with Blasdelb offering to talk further over MeMail. Was this not agreeable to you?
posted by arcticseal at 6:41 PM on August 19, 2013 [77 favorites]
posted by arcticseal at 6:41 PM on August 19, 2013 [77 favorites]
C'mon.
posted by chinston at 6:42 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by chinston at 6:42 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have no dog in this fight, but don't see how offering to one-off email people journal articles for their own personal use is hugely problematic.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:55 PM on August 19, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:55 PM on August 19, 2013 [8 favorites]
Thank you Blasdelb!
posted by StrikeTheViol at 6:58 PM on August 19, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by StrikeTheViol at 6:58 PM on August 19, 2013 [14 favorites]
Yeah, this is a bullshit callout. Blasdelb's offer has no effect on your research and it seems like this meta is predicated by something else. Only Blasdelb can say whether or not that offer is illegal or against the terms of the journal EULAs. Demands for citations are numerous on Metafilter, for good reason, claiming that it's wrong to offer those cites is insane.
posted by arcolz at 6:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by arcolz at 6:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [8 favorites]
Seems to me that the only person privy to the terms and extent of Blasdelb's access and (re)distribution rights to academic papers is Blasdelb.
posted by wierdo at 6:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 6:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
Nice tags!
Add me to the chorus, I can't see that presuming Blasdelb's good faith (in stating s/he has the legal and moral right to send the papers) is a problem.
posted by Sebmojo at 7:00 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Add me to the chorus, I can't see that presuming Blasdelb's good faith (in stating s/he has the legal and moral right to send the papers) is a problem.
posted by Sebmojo at 7:00 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's probably not. I've seen many of our licensing agreements and they specify that patrons can share single articles outside of the campus. It's usually a less onerous restriction than those that still think ILL articles should be faxed and available in print only. I have made the same offer and I think two people have taken me up on it-- far less than the thousands of articles that I have sent professionally, every year, to people whose libraries do not have access to them.
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:00 PM on August 19, 2013 [18 favorites]
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:00 PM on August 19, 2013 [18 favorites]
If we don't stick up for Elsevier and Co., who will?
posted by Behemoth at 7:01 PM on August 19, 2013 [49 favorites]
posted by Behemoth at 7:01 PM on August 19, 2013 [49 favorites]
...and *THIS* is what MSG withdrawal causes.
posted by iamabot at 7:03 PM on August 19, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by iamabot at 7:03 PM on August 19, 2013 [9 favorites]
Of course, if blasdelb ever flies into the UK, he can expect a full 9 hours of Suspected Terrorist Detainment and seizure of all his game consoles. And entering the US? Dude, just don't do it.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:06 PM on August 19, 2013
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:06 PM on August 19, 2013
Blazecock, let's take the best case scenario, for you: what Blasdelb is doing is both illegal and immoral. Even given those assumptions, there is no way that this Metatalk, written in this tone, will be successful. The answer is pretty clearly that this belongs in MeMail or should be taken up with the mods, and doesn't require community comment.
Now let's move a bit closer to reality: what Blasdelb is doing is probably not illegal, and is largely viewed as morally supererogatory. Under those facts, this callout makes you look pretty weird. It's like you came in here to attack puppies.
What's going on, that you'd take this particular hill as the one to fight on?
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:14 PM on August 19, 2013 [35 favorites]
Now let's move a bit closer to reality: what Blasdelb is doing is probably not illegal, and is largely viewed as morally supererogatory. Under those facts, this callout makes you look pretty weird. It's like you came in here to attack puppies.
What's going on, that you'd take this particular hill as the one to fight on?
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:14 PM on August 19, 2013 [35 favorites]
Seriously, what the hell? This callout seems pretty shitty to me.
posted by gauche at 7:14 PM on August 19, 2013 [19 favorites]
posted by gauche at 7:14 PM on August 19, 2013 [19 favorites]
I think BP might be underestimating the variety of things that go on at a lending library.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 7:14 PM on August 19, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 7:14 PM on August 19, 2013 [7 favorites]
Oh god don't let the publishers know about the arXiv because then they'll close down ALL OF THE LIBRARIES, or something? It's like 5000 PIRATE BAYS ALL GOING ON AT ONCE
posted by Frobenius Twist at 7:17 PM on August 19, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by Frobenius Twist at 7:17 PM on August 19, 2013 [10 favorites]
This is a bullshit callout.
posted by rtha at 7:20 PM on August 19, 2013 [18 favorites]
posted by rtha at 7:20 PM on August 19, 2013 [18 favorites]
Dude, seriously? Whatever battle you've been waging here just lost you the war.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 7:23 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 7:23 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
I even switched to the non-mobile view so I could see the tags and are you fucking kidding me oh my god.
posted by rtha at 7:24 PM on August 19, 2013 [15 favorites]
posted by rtha at 7:24 PM on August 19, 2013 [15 favorites]
Get over yourself mate. I don't know what this is about, but you cannot know if Blasdelb's frequent and considerate offers on this are in fact actually illegal, your tone is douchey, and you don't even know if anyone ever takes him up on the offer.
posted by smoke at 7:24 PM on August 19, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by smoke at 7:24 PM on August 19, 2013 [6 favorites]
I've seen many of our licensing agreements and they specify that patrons can share single articles outside of the campus.
Yeah as MetaFilter's most famous librarian today, this is a non-issue from a library perspective. You may dislike it for other reasons, BP, and that's totally fine, but this sort of one-on-one article exchanging does basically nothing to the costs of library serials which are criminally high for entirely other reasons mostly having to do with publishers failing to find an appropriate business model for this century.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:25 PM on August 19, 2013 [157 favorites]
Yeah as MetaFilter's most famous librarian today, this is a non-issue from a library perspective. You may dislike it for other reasons, BP, and that's totally fine, but this sort of one-on-one article exchanging does basically nothing to the costs of library serials which are criminally high for entirely other reasons mostly having to do with publishers failing to find an appropriate business model for this century.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:25 PM on August 19, 2013 [157 favorites]
I don't even understand why this is an issue.
posted by Roger Dodger at 7:25 PM on August 19, 2013
posted by Roger Dodger at 7:25 PM on August 19, 2013
I hope that Blasdelb responds with a battle rap.
posted by klangklangston at 7:27 PM on August 19, 2013 [69 favorites]
posted by klangklangston at 7:27 PM on August 19, 2013 [69 favorites]
I hope that Blasdelb responds with a battle rap.
I read "battle rap" as "bottle cap," and totally had an image of Bert showing Ernie his rare bottle cap collection.
Which I also hope happens in this case.
posted by scody at 7:30 PM on August 19, 2013 [23 favorites]
I read "battle rap" as "bottle cap," and totally had an image of Bert showing Ernie his rare bottle cap collection.
Which I also hope happens in this case.
posted by scody at 7:30 PM on August 19, 2013 [23 favorites]
Also, as per usual, you've dropped a turd into meta, and then don't deign to stick around and explain yourself, or clean up your mess.
posted by smoke at 7:31 PM on August 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by smoke at 7:31 PM on August 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
Yeah as MetaFilter's most famous librarian today, this is a non-issue from a library perspective.
MetaFilter isn't a library.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:31 PM on August 19, 2013
MetaFilter isn't a library.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:31 PM on August 19, 2013
But I guess it's okay to turn MetaFilter into a skeezy file sharing site, so whatever.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:32 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:32 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
aggravates me to no end when I can't get access to articles related to my work
Just email me! Happy to download and send to you!
posted by knock my smock and i'll clean your clock at 7:34 PM on August 19, 2013 [16 favorites]
Just email me! Happy to download and send to you!
posted by knock my smock and i'll clean your clock at 7:34 PM on August 19, 2013 [16 favorites]
MetaFilter isn't a library.
Dude seriously unless he's hidden some kind of secret code in his comments that unlocks a BitTorrent of his university's library, your allegations make zero sense. Whatsoever. Our patrons can access our articles from everywhere, and they can share them with colleagues from anywhere. It is built into the actual legal license or professors would cry bloody murder. No, he can't send a copy to every user. But that isn't even a function of meta talk, which is where this should have stayed.
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:35 PM on August 19, 2013 [17 favorites]
Dude seriously unless he's hidden some kind of secret code in his comments that unlocks a BitTorrent of his university's library, your allegations make zero sense. Whatsoever. Our patrons can access our articles from everywhere, and they can share them with colleagues from anywhere. It is built into the actual legal license or professors would cry bloody murder. No, he can't send a copy to every user. But that isn't even a function of meta talk, which is where this should have stayed.
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:35 PM on August 19, 2013 [17 favorites]
* excited clappy hands * Ooooooh BP snarked to a mod! this just got good!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:36 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:36 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
MetaFilter isn't a library.
You have got to be kidding. This is your response? You framed this meta in terms of the effect on "libraries I use for my research," so this is a hilarious off-point response. But I think you know that, since your tone generally pegs the "sneering contempt" meter.
But I guess it's okay to turn MetaFilter into a skeezy file sharing site, so whatever.
Jesus. Are you 5 years old? Do you enjoy having tantrums on Metafilter? I mean, this callout is at least a change from your usual "Metafilter cabal" business, so you have novelty on your side at least.
posted by Frobenius Twist at 7:37 PM on August 19, 2013 [16 favorites]
You have got to be kidding. This is your response? You framed this meta in terms of the effect on "libraries I use for my research," so this is a hilarious off-point response. But I think you know that, since your tone generally pegs the "sneering contempt" meter.
But I guess it's okay to turn MetaFilter into a skeezy file sharing site, so whatever.
Jesus. Are you 5 years old? Do you enjoy having tantrums on Metafilter? I mean, this callout is at least a change from your usual "Metafilter cabal" business, so you have novelty on your side at least.
posted by Frobenius Twist at 7:37 PM on August 19, 2013 [16 favorites]
* excited clappy hands * Ooooooh BP snarked to a mod! this just got good!
Close it up.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:37 PM on August 19, 2013 [9 favorites]
Close it up.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:37 PM on August 19, 2013 [9 favorites]
MetaFilter isn't a library.
I'm aware of that. Your argument was, as far as I understood it, saying that this sort of sharing of files did bad things to the terms publishers set (and I assumed the prices) in libraries. But please set me straight about this so that I can just post my comments to both active MeTa threads at once?
But I guess it's okay to turn MetaFilter into a skeezy file sharing site, so whatever.
Your inability to see the large grey area here and your ascerbic responses as if we aren't all working from the same general data and drawing different conclusions makes these conversations more difficult than they need to be. If you're just mad at Blasdelb, drop him a note. Otherwise you nominally showed up to have a conversation with the community so ... here we are.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:38 PM on August 19, 2013 [46 favorites]
I'm aware of that. Your argument was, as far as I understood it, saying that this sort of sharing of files did bad things to the terms publishers set (and I assumed the prices) in libraries. But please set me straight about this so that I can just post my comments to both active MeTa threads at once?
But I guess it's okay to turn MetaFilter into a skeezy file sharing site, so whatever.
Your inability to see the large grey area here and your ascerbic responses as if we aren't all working from the same general data and drawing different conclusions makes these conversations more difficult than they need to be. If you're just mad at Blasdelb, drop him a note. Otherwise you nominally showed up to have a conversation with the community so ... here we are.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:38 PM on August 19, 2013 [46 favorites]
On a serious note have you asked the librarians/ILL people why you can't get articles? Are they not willing to pay the license fee or the copyright or are they foreign publications? They should be able to give you solid advice based on your campus's situation and journal packages to get you the info that you do need.
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:38 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:38 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
But I guess it's okay to turn MetaFilter into a skeezy file sharing site, so whatever.
I have never seen a skeezey file sharing site where someone politely offered to email you a PDF of an article if you were interested. Maybe I've visited the wrong skeezey file sharing sites?
posted by rtha at 7:41 PM on August 19, 2013 [88 favorites]
I have never seen a skeezey file sharing site where someone politely offered to email you a PDF of an article if you were interested. Maybe I've visited the wrong skeezey file sharing sites?
posted by rtha at 7:41 PM on August 19, 2013 [88 favorites]
* excited clappy hands * Ooooooh BP snarked to a mod!
It must be a day that ends with "y."
posted by zombieflanders at 7:42 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
It must be a day that ends with "y."
posted by zombieflanders at 7:42 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
have never seen a skeezey file sharing site where someone politely offered to email you a PDF of an article if you were interested. Maybe I've visited the wrong skeezey file sharing sites?
Honestly I get Metafilter and The Pirate Bay mixed up all the time.
posted by kbanas at 7:44 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
Honestly I get Metafilter and The Pirate Bay mixed up all the time.
posted by kbanas at 7:44 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
You want a toe? I can get you a toe, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me.
posted by iamabot at 7:47 PM on August 19, 2013 [18 favorites]
posted by iamabot at 7:47 PM on August 19, 2013 [18 favorites]
Honestly I get Metafilter and The Pirate Bay mixed up all the time.
You're not the only one, clearly!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:49 PM on August 19, 2013
You're not the only one, clearly!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:49 PM on August 19, 2013
Oh, God.
posted by Curious Artificer at 7:51 PM on August 19, 2013 [22 favorites]
posted by Curious Artificer at 7:51 PM on August 19, 2013 [22 favorites]
This conversation led me to find this interesting little article on the origins of the term skeevy/skeezy.
Italian regional (Tuscany) schifo, adjective (Italian schifo (noun) sense of repugnance, nausea, disgust (1353 in Boccaccio) Old French eschif hostile, fierce: see ESCHEW a.) + -Y. Cf. later SKEEVE v., SKEEVE n.]
I also found Analytics Made Skeezy, which makes me so very, very happy as a thing.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 7:51 PM on August 19, 2013 [19 favorites]
Italian regional (Tuscany) schifo, adjective (Italian schifo (noun) sense of repugnance, nausea, disgust (1353 in Boccaccio) Old French eschif hostile, fierce: see ESCHEW a.) + -Y. Cf. later SKEEVE v., SKEEVE n.]
I also found Analytics Made Skeezy, which makes me so very, very happy as a thing.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 7:51 PM on August 19, 2013 [19 favorites]
As Metafilter's least famous non-librarian library employee, I can also say that, were he one of our patrons, we would have no problem helping him retrieve articles which we knew would be used in this manner. Posting a link to the PDF? That might be a problem. Posting passwords to our proxy server? Someone would get upset. But "sharing papers, by email, so that folks can discuss" is 100% within reasonable bounds.
posted by pullayup at 7:55 PM on August 19, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by pullayup at 7:55 PM on August 19, 2013 [10 favorites]
Skeezy Bread is the signature appetizer at my SkeeBall arcade/brothel's dining room.
It's like cheesy bread but...wait, no, it actually is quite a lot like cheesy bread.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:56 PM on August 19, 2013
It's like cheesy bread but...wait, no, it actually is quite a lot like cheesy bread.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:56 PM on August 19, 2013
1353 in Boccaccio
It does sound like a pretty sweet Renaissance burn.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:57 PM on August 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
It does sound like a pretty sweet Renaissance burn.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:57 PM on August 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
You can't MeMail a toe. I mean that's just ridiculous.
posted by humanfont at 7:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 7:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
But I guess it's okay to turn MetaFilter into a skeezy file sharing site, so whatever.
Go home. You're drunk.
posted by Sebmojo at 7:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [23 favorites]
Go home. You're drunk.
posted by Sebmojo at 7:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [23 favorites]
You can't MeMail a toe. I mean that's just ridiculous.
Have you checked out the latest developer build of Chrome?
posted by kbanas at 8:00 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
Have you checked out the latest developer build of Chrome?
posted by kbanas at 8:00 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
Honestly I get Metafilter and The Pirate Bay mixed up all the time.
You're not the only one, clearly!
This brings the count to... Two? Hm.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 8:00 PM on August 19, 2013
You're not the only one, clearly!
This brings the count to... Two? Hm.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 8:00 PM on August 19, 2013
But I guess it's okay to turn MetaFilter into a skeezy file sharing site, so whatever.
Do you even give a shit about this here meTa that you posted? Do you care that actual librarians have weighed in and disagreed with your accusations? Do you have any other non-snarky things to say about how you perceive a mefite's actions having an impact on site policies?
posted by rtha at 8:01 PM on August 19, 2013 [7 favorites]
Do you even give a shit about this here meTa that you posted? Do you care that actual librarians have weighed in and disagreed with your accusations? Do you have any other non-snarky things to say about how you perceive a mefite's actions having an impact on site policies?
posted by rtha at 8:01 PM on August 19, 2013 [7 favorites]
BP, can you please elaborate on why you think Blasdelb's offer is contravening some licencing rules? Might help us understand why you are taking this position.
posted by arcticseal at 8:02 PM on August 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by arcticseal at 8:02 PM on August 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
And that was a bad copypasta. Meant to paste this: You're not the only one, clearly!
posted by rtha at 8:03 PM on August 19, 2013
posted by rtha at 8:03 PM on August 19, 2013
You can't MeMail a toe. I mean that's just ridiculous.
Sure you can, if you want to be labeled a podophile.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:03 PM on August 19, 2013 [6 favorites]
Sure you can, if you want to be labeled a podophile.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:03 PM on August 19, 2013 [6 favorites]
Okay, maybe I'm missing something here, but do we know for a fact that Blasdelb is sharing the article illegally? Because if not, then this is just highly publicized slander.
skeezy file sharing site
Again, do you know that the file is being black-marketed at the inflated cost of $FREE, or is this just a guess?
posted by Shouraku at 8:04 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
skeezy file sharing site
Again, do you know that the file is being black-marketed at the inflated cost of $FREE, or is this just a guess?
posted by Shouraku at 8:04 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Because if not, then this is just highly publicized slander.
Woah there.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:07 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Woah there.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:07 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think Blazecock Pileon is participating here in 100% bad faith. He hasn't articulated in any way why he think Blasdelb's offer is illegal or how it harms his own research. All he's offered is snark in response to questions from both the mods and users.
Seriously, Blazecock Pileon, why do you think this is a problem, what do you expect to accomplish with the meta other than shitting on another user?
posted by arcolz at 8:09 PM on August 19, 2013 [11 favorites]
Seriously, Blazecock Pileon, why do you think this is a problem, what do you expect to accomplish with the meta other than shitting on another user?
posted by arcolz at 8:09 PM on August 19, 2013 [11 favorites]
Oh, I just learned something, thank you zombieflanders:
I retract and reissue my statement: Because if not, then this is just highly publicized libel.
posted by Shouraku at 8:10 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
I retract and reissue my statement: Because if not, then this is just highly publicized libel.
posted by Shouraku at 8:10 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Again, I just really don't get why MeMail wasn't the first and most logical solution here.
It wasn't even posed as a question to the community.
posted by batmonkey at 8:11 PM on August 19, 2013
It wasn't even posed as a question to the community.
posted by batmonkey at 8:11 PM on August 19, 2013
You're not the only one, clearly!
You know, Blazecock, it's odd. Because after all, you do have a sense of humor - more than once, I have seen you say something rather witty or insightful, and I have said to myself, "Self, you have formed an unfair opinion of Blazecock Pileon. He is often an amusing fellow."
But then it's something like this again, and once Blazecock Grudge Mode activates the only method of communication you seem to have is repeating the same assertion over and over again, only instead of like offering supporting arguments or something, just increasing the amount of sarcasm and contempt you express for anybody not agreeing with it each time.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 8:12 PM on August 19, 2013 [35 favorites]
You know, Blazecock, it's odd. Because after all, you do have a sense of humor - more than once, I have seen you say something rather witty or insightful, and I have said to myself, "Self, you have formed an unfair opinion of Blazecock Pileon. He is often an amusing fellow."
But then it's something like this again, and once Blazecock Grudge Mode activates the only method of communication you seem to have is repeating the same assertion over and over again, only instead of like offering supporting arguments or something, just increasing the amount of sarcasm and contempt you express for anybody not agreeing with it each time.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 8:12 PM on August 19, 2013 [35 favorites]
I remember when I learned to distance my righteous anger from any keyboard. I got a nice tan and felt better.
posted by carsonb at 8:30 PM on August 19, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by carsonb at 8:30 PM on August 19, 2013 [12 favorites]
"But I guess it's okay to turn MetaFilter into a skeezy file sharing site, so whatever."
MEFI SWAP IS KILLING MUSIC
posted by klangklangston at 8:30 PM on August 19, 2013 [41 favorites]
MEFI SWAP IS KILLING MUSIC
posted by klangklangston at 8:30 PM on August 19, 2013 [41 favorites]
BP, what's the deal? Are you deliberately flying a burning plane right into the ground?
I'm not even being snarky. If you weren't a long standing community member, I'd think this was a deliberate troll just to rile people up.
Are you having a bad day? It's okay to apologize and move on (again, not being snarky). Everyone is pretty quick to hug it out around here.
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:32 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
I'm not even being snarky. If you weren't a long standing community member, I'd think this was a deliberate troll just to rile people up.
Are you having a bad day? It's okay to apologize and move on (again, not being snarky). Everyone is pretty quick to hug it out around here.
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:32 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
I would hug it out.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:35 PM on August 19, 2013 [27 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:35 PM on August 19, 2013 [27 favorites]
As a producer of those pay-walled academic articles, I'll just say I'll start giving a shit about people making articles available on Metafilter if it starts cutting into the income I receive from the journal publishers for all those papers I write.
Which is $0.
Carry on.
posted by Jimbob at 8:36 PM on August 19, 2013 [95 favorites]
Which is $0.
Carry on.
posted by Jimbob at 8:36 PM on August 19, 2013 [95 favorites]
And I'll start caring when it cuts into the income I receive for writing peer reviews of those papers.
Which is also $0.
posted by grouse at 8:39 PM on August 19, 2013 [73 favorites]
Which is also $0.
posted by grouse at 8:39 PM on August 19, 2013 [73 favorites]
it helps publishing houses justify onerous terms to libraries
They're the bad guys for doing this, why focus on the (weak) justification?
posted by ODiV at 8:43 PM on August 19, 2013
They're the bad guys for doing this, why focus on the (weak) justification?
posted by ODiV at 8:43 PM on August 19, 2013
This is a strange call out. I suspect it's time to add it to the "someone was feeling pissy" pile and move on.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:51 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:51 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
Can we please bring back the "Two Participants (who happen to be prolific and argumentative members) will voluntarily take a break from mefi" fundraiser? We could pick a new charity if not the Creative Commons.
posted by zarq at 8:51 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by zarq at 8:51 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Can we please bring back the "Two Participants (who happen to be prolific and argumentative members) will voluntarily take a break from mefi" fundraiser? We could pick a new charity if not the Creative Commons.
I think Thunderdome would work better.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:54 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think Thunderdome would work better.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:54 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
thunderdome.metafilter.com
Two users enter, both users stay and yell "I'M RIGHT", "NO, I'M RIGHT" forever.
No one watches.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:56 PM on August 19, 2013 [75 favorites]
Two users enter, both users stay and yell "I'M RIGHT", "NO, I'M RIGHT" forever.
No one watches.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:56 PM on August 19, 2013 [75 favorites]
I think it's kind of a weird offer. My experience, having been an graduate student in the humanities for three years, and then not a graduate student in the humanities for more than five years now, is that I just don't get a whole lot out of reading papers in my old specialty. I find them difficult and time-consuming to read, and even when I put in the time I don't have many useful thoughts about them--having once been in a position to have useful thoughts about them and therefore able to tell the difference.
I am currently reading a book where I am personally cited in the acknowledgements as having a positive effect on the ideas contained within, where that is the case. So I am doubtful that this kind of offer is a terribly useful thing in terms of informing discussions on metafilter, and unsurprised that so few have taken the offer up. The people who need to have access to these kinds of things already have access, basically.
I wouldn't make a MeTa about it or anything though. It's a weird world out there.
posted by Kwine at 8:57 PM on August 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
I am currently reading a book where I am personally cited in the acknowledgements as having a positive effect on the ideas contained within, where that is the case. So I am doubtful that this kind of offer is a terribly useful thing in terms of informing discussions on metafilter, and unsurprised that so few have taken the offer up. The people who need to have access to these kinds of things already have access, basically.
I wouldn't make a MeTa about it or anything though. It's a weird world out there.
posted by Kwine at 8:57 PM on August 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
The problem, for me, is that BP's a pretty righteous guy when he's got the right targets (military industrial complex, mostly), who sometimes comes across as if he thinks every personal bugaboo deserves the same artillery.
I mean, c'mon, filesharing? I see that in the category of things like, "Smoking commercial marijuana."
I can only hope he spends half as much time fighting to expand fair use interpretations of copyright statute.
posted by klangklangston at 8:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
I mean, c'mon, filesharing? I see that in the category of things like, "Smoking commercial marijuana."
I can only hope he spends half as much time fighting to expand fair use interpretations of copyright statute.
posted by klangklangston at 8:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
Blasdelb explicitly says "Additionally, the source I primarily use goes to great lengths to secure the explicit right of those with access rights to share the PDFs we have access to with others for a variety of specific purposes including academic discussions like the one we are currently having here."
So, when you call it illegal, are you outright saying that's simply a lie?
posted by tyllwin at 9:00 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
So, when you call it illegal, are you outright saying that's simply a lie?
posted by tyllwin at 9:00 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
The people who need to have access to these kinds of things already have access, basically.
I think the issue might be slightly different with scientific work. The media is notoriously dreadful at reporting on scientific research - it's reasonable for people to want to see the original paper, rather than rely on a newspaper's breathless interpretation of the results, which usually leaves out vital caveats. And it's reasonable for the public to be able to see that original research, and judge for themselves if they can.
posted by Jimbob at 9:01 PM on August 19, 2013 [23 favorites]
I think the issue might be slightly different with scientific work. The media is notoriously dreadful at reporting on scientific research - it's reasonable for people to want to see the original paper, rather than rely on a newspaper's breathless interpretation of the results, which usually leaves out vital caveats. And it's reasonable for the public to be able to see that original research, and judge for themselves if they can.
posted by Jimbob at 9:01 PM on August 19, 2013 [23 favorites]
"So I am doubtful that this kind of offer is a terribly useful thing in terms of informing discussions on metafilter, and unsurprised that so few have taken the offer up. The people who need to have access to these kinds of things already have access, basically."
Huh. I come across an article that I need to take a look at about once a month, usually some social science thing, and I don't usually have trouble reading them. I've had to cut way back on philosophy papers, though, since they take me too long to read.
posted by klangklangston at 9:01 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Huh. I come across an article that I need to take a look at about once a month, usually some social science thing, and I don't usually have trouble reading them. I've had to cut way back on philosophy papers, though, since they take me too long to read.
posted by klangklangston at 9:01 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also Blasdelb, Metafilter is not your personal sandwich shop. Please take your meat and cheeses home.
You can leave the spicy brown mustard though.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:05 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
You can leave the spicy brown mustard though.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:05 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
That seems pretty reasonable, Jimbob. Science is certainly a different animal and my scientific education is regrettably not very strong.
posted by Kwine at 9:07 PM on August 19, 2013
posted by Kwine at 9:07 PM on August 19, 2013
Jimbob raises a pretty good point - if any information ever demanded to be free, it's academic papers published in peer-reviewed journals, not your weird-ass fuckin' LiveJournal entries from when you were seventeen and listening to a bunch of Neutral Milk Hotel and wondering why you just can't stop crying.
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:14 PM on August 19, 2013 [23 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:14 PM on August 19, 2013 [23 favorites]
oh my god someone stumbled onto my old LiveJournal
posted by pecanpies at 9:19 PM on August 19, 2013 [36 favorites]
posted by pecanpies at 9:19 PM on August 19, 2013 [36 favorites]
aggravates me to no end when I can't get access to articles related to my workI hear Blasdelb can help you out with that.
posted by Flunkie at 9:22 PM on August 19, 2013 [44 favorites]
Been hot in Seattle lately, hasn't it?
An almost unprecedented string of cloudless, searing days.
So hot a person might not be quite himself toward the close of one of these long, windless afternoons.
posted by jamjam at 9:35 PM on August 19, 2013
An almost unprecedented string of cloudless, searing days.
So hot a person might not be quite himself toward the close of one of these long, windless afternoons.
posted by jamjam at 9:35 PM on August 19, 2013
Guess I'll stop sharing hot_nude)_journal_articles.torrent in my bio
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 9:36 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 9:36 PM on August 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
I have never seen a skeezey file sharing site where someone politely offered to email you a PDF of an article if you were interested. Maybe I've visited the wrong skeezey file sharing sites?
As far as I can tell, this is explicitly at least 50% of the entire purpose of ResearchGate, though they don't seem particularly skeezey to me.
People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread
You seem to be arguing here that sharing the original article is neutral or even detrimental to most discussions on MeFi. I wholly disagree. For one thing, there are a lot of former academic scientists who now work in the private sector, and not just for Genentech, etc. -- I mean, I know a neuroscientist who quit post-Ph.D. to sell boutique yarn. That person is an extreme example but there are many others along that spectrum who may still be the people on MeFi with the most relevant expertise for a particular thread.
For another thing, if you don't have relevant expertise but you are interested in understanding a topic or result better, it helps to be able to actually cross-reference what the experts are saying with what the paper actually says. It's not just the people doing the most talking that may have a legitimate academic interest in the .pdf but also the people who are watching and listening from the sidelines.
Anyway, I think Blasdelb is doing a great service here. Also,
It's usually a less onerous restriction than those that still think ILL articles should be faxed and available in print only.
My old university would send you a .pdf when you requested a journal article by ILL. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by en forme de poire at 9:42 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
As far as I can tell, this is explicitly at least 50% of the entire purpose of ResearchGate, though they don't seem particularly skeezey to me.
People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread
You seem to be arguing here that sharing the original article is neutral or even detrimental to most discussions on MeFi. I wholly disagree. For one thing, there are a lot of former academic scientists who now work in the private sector, and not just for Genentech, etc. -- I mean, I know a neuroscientist who quit post-Ph.D. to sell boutique yarn. That person is an extreme example but there are many others along that spectrum who may still be the people on MeFi with the most relevant expertise for a particular thread.
For another thing, if you don't have relevant expertise but you are interested in understanding a topic or result better, it helps to be able to actually cross-reference what the experts are saying with what the paper actually says. It's not just the people doing the most talking that may have a legitimate academic interest in the .pdf but also the people who are watching and listening from the sidelines.
Anyway, I think Blasdelb is doing a great service here. Also,
It's usually a less onerous restriction than those that still think ILL articles should be faxed and available in print only.
My old university would send you a .pdf when you requested a journal article by ILL. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by en forme de poire at 9:42 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
Been hot in Seattle lately, hasn't it?
It is enough to send a man mad.
posted by klangklangston at 9:46 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
It is enough to send a man mad.
posted by klangklangston at 9:46 PM on August 19, 2013 [5 favorites]
Blazecock, what is the policy of the library at the academic institution with which you're affiliated in regard to single-copy sharing of pdfs of journal articles via email?
Also:
The media is notoriously dreadful at reporting on scientific research - it's reasonable for people to want to see the original paper, rather than rely on a newspaper's breathless interpretation of the results, which usually leaves out vital caveats.
Yes.
posted by mediareport at 9:58 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also:
The media is notoriously dreadful at reporting on scientific research - it's reasonable for people to want to see the original paper, rather than rely on a newspaper's breathless interpretation of the results, which usually leaves out vital caveats.
Yes.
posted by mediareport at 9:58 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
I thought, from the headline, that someone posted his/her user ID and password. Which would be interesting and kind of bad.
Most people consider me a stickler for copyright stuff, and the actual post didn't alarm me.
posted by amtho at 9:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Most people consider me a stickler for copyright stuff, and the actual post didn't alarm me.
posted by amtho at 9:59 PM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
I even switched to the non-mobile view so I could see the tags
So did I and I can't figure out how the hell to switch back. What the hell? Am I really that stupid?
Don't answer that.
posted by dersins at 10:31 PM on August 19, 2013
To get back to the mobile view, go to this FAQ entry and click the link.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:34 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:34 PM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
The note below the comment box has never seemed more apropos.
posted by asterix at 10:58 PM on August 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by asterix at 10:58 PM on August 19, 2013 [4 favorites]
Just have the site call their lawyers make sure it is ok. close this thread.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:08 PM on August 19, 2013
posted by Ironmouth at 11:08 PM on August 19, 2013
So when I read metatalk threads like this I often wonder what the author is attempting to accomplish. I usually assume, with the topic set as it is, that the author is attempting to garner community support for his beliefs. Yet BP responses seem to belie that because he doesn't even attempt to engage with the arguments being made, just repeat some really weak snark. So BP, what's the point of this meta? Why does this exist? Are you trying to change our minds? Perhaps you should try doing that?
also blasdelb's service sounds pretty cool...
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:04 AM on August 20, 2013
also blasdelb's service sounds pretty cool...
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:04 AM on August 20, 2013
Look, guys, this isn't that hard. Blasdelb offered to send someone an article, which is legal. That's kinda like offering to send everyone an article, which is illegal. And pirate bay is a place where people illegally share things. So if we allow Blasdelb's offer to stand, we're turning MeFi into a skeezy file sharing site.
Similarly, I've seen people link to videos on YouTube. Those videos have contained legal content. But that's kinda like linking to videos which show illegal content. And child porn sites are places where people post videos of illegal content. So if we allow links to videos of puppies on YouTube, we're turning MeFi into a child porn site.
This isn't exactly rocket science.
posted by Bugbread at 12:14 AM on August 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
Similarly, I've seen people link to videos on YouTube. Those videos have contained legal content. But that's kinda like linking to videos which show illegal content. And child porn sites are places where people post videos of illegal content. So if we allow links to videos of puppies on YouTube, we're turning MeFi into a child porn site.
This isn't exactly rocket science.
posted by Bugbread at 12:14 AM on August 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
Was BP a actually upset about this callout? Was this a way of calling attention to blasdelb's offer in a way that would maximize our awareness? I can't tell if he or she was seriously upset or just trying to be funny.
posted by humanfont at 12:33 AM on August 20, 2013
posted by humanfont at 12:33 AM on August 20, 2013
but more to the point, it helps publishing houses justify onerous terms to libraries I use for my research, which aggravates me to no end when I can't get access to articles related to my work.This is a terrible reason for a callout.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:34 AM on August 20, 2013
The people who need to have access to these kinds of things already have access, basically.
Need is a relative term. Many of the scientific articles I've read in the past year or two are not things I "need" to have read, in terms of being useful to my work or being part of an organized project of research. But that doesn't mean that, like many MeFites, I'm not interested in reading about a variety of topics, and sometimes abstracts alone are far from sufficient. I'm pretty good at getting access to many of these things, despite not having online access to a major university research library, but I'm more likely to give up and find something else to do if the fulltext article isn't quickly obtainable. $30/article or whatever some sites offer is feasible if you "need" the article (ignoring the fact that you can't tell whether you need it until you've paid the fee and read the thing), but it's frankly not something I'm going to pay for personal curiosity. Pay-per-article isn't even available for many journals. I'm sorry if that sounds self-indulgent, but the situation here is so different from, say, music or movies (which I do make a point of paying for). When the author, reviewers, and editorial board all work unpaid, it's absurdity.
posted by zachlipton at 1:17 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Need is a relative term. Many of the scientific articles I've read in the past year or two are not things I "need" to have read, in terms of being useful to my work or being part of an organized project of research. But that doesn't mean that, like many MeFites, I'm not interested in reading about a variety of topics, and sometimes abstracts alone are far from sufficient. I'm pretty good at getting access to many of these things, despite not having online access to a major university research library, but I'm more likely to give up and find something else to do if the fulltext article isn't quickly obtainable. $30/article or whatever some sites offer is feasible if you "need" the article (ignoring the fact that you can't tell whether you need it until you've paid the fee and read the thing), but it's frankly not something I'm going to pay for personal curiosity. Pay-per-article isn't even available for many journals. I'm sorry if that sounds self-indulgent, but the situation here is so different from, say, music or movies (which I do make a point of paying for). When the author, reviewers, and editorial board all work unpaid, it's absurdity.
posted by zachlipton at 1:17 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread, and more than likely we do not need proxy access through your library, as impressed as we all are by your library card.
If we restricted participation in threads to people informed enough to have a professional discussion we would have to shut down the site. Certainly your own participation here has never been characterised by a reluctance to make strong statements on topics that you are not professionally familiar with. Nor should it.
But then it's something like this again, and once Blazecock Grudge Mode activates the only method of communication you seem to have is repeating the same assertion over and over again, only instead of like offering supporting arguments or something, just increasing the amount of sarcasm and contempt you express for anybody not agreeing with it each time.
Considering that his username is literally a reference to a previous shit-storm he incited that's hardly surprising.
posted by atrazine at 1:27 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
If we restricted participation in threads to people informed enough to have a professional discussion we would have to shut down the site. Certainly your own participation here has never been characterised by a reluctance to make strong statements on topics that you are not professionally familiar with. Nor should it.
But then it's something like this again, and once Blazecock Grudge Mode activates the only method of communication you seem to have is repeating the same assertion over and over again, only instead of like offering supporting arguments or something, just increasing the amount of sarcasm and contempt you express for anybody not agreeing with it each time.
Considering that his username is literally a reference to a previous shit-storm he incited that's hardly surprising.
posted by atrazine at 1:27 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
Wow, I didn't realize how excellent Blasdelb is! Thanks BP!
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [16 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [16 favorites]
but this sort of one-on-one article exchanging does basically nothing to the costs of library serials which are criminally high for entirely other reasons mostly having to do with publishers failing to find an appropriate business model for this century.
To elaborate on that. I worked at director level for a company with a large, well known academic publishing wing. The business model is very simple: maintain a 50%+ net profit margin. If your customer base goes down by 10% increase prices by 10%.* Academic publishing is harder than people realise (an obstacle for more open models of academic publishing) - corralling professors to deliver publishable content on time is not as easy as it would seem. But basically academic publishers have realised the cost efficiencies from digital content creation and delivery and want to keep the margins where they are, thank you.
So they aren't failing to find, as such. They aren't really looking, in my experience. There is little internal debate about the next new business model or how to deal with open access. The publishers know their leverage is the back catalogue, that it is long term but not short term fragile. And they are prepared to sweat it. They know that the market will eventually change but are unwilling to go down, say, the route of wider distribution and lower price points because of the risk (the risk being that they would need to lower prices before finding the extra customers, and it much cheaper operationally to charge fewer customers a lot than chase lots of smaller transactions) and the short term hit on some big areas of business. Strategically, jumping before your peers risks leaving you open to being acquired: Elsevier, Springer etc are pretty acquisitive and scale is a benefit because of the leverage you get.
The business model is based on running mature, cash cow businesses efficiently until the tipping point when a disruptive change happens and the quality content - i.e. the contributors - migrates elsewhere.
On piracy: definitely an issue and definitely hurts long term. Not so much peer-to-peer emailing but there has been a noticeable shift in attitudes towards copyright integrity and IP with the advent of digital publishing and aggregation. This is true in America and Europe. It is doubly so in China and India where students especially think nothing of downloading and putting whole catalogues of newly published content online. Some sites in China even download all your stuff and resell it. It's like the wild west. This problem isn't really driving high prices for publishers of academic journals but is causing problems for publishers of niche, low volume/high price publishers of online content that has a high cost to produce and a limited audience.
*Yes, I am aware the maths doesn't quite tally
posted by MuffinMan at 2:17 AM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
To elaborate on that. I worked at director level for a company with a large, well known academic publishing wing. The business model is very simple: maintain a 50%+ net profit margin. If your customer base goes down by 10% increase prices by 10%.* Academic publishing is harder than people realise (an obstacle for more open models of academic publishing) - corralling professors to deliver publishable content on time is not as easy as it would seem. But basically academic publishers have realised the cost efficiencies from digital content creation and delivery and want to keep the margins where they are, thank you.
So they aren't failing to find, as such. They aren't really looking, in my experience. There is little internal debate about the next new business model or how to deal with open access. The publishers know their leverage is the back catalogue, that it is long term but not short term fragile. And they are prepared to sweat it. They know that the market will eventually change but are unwilling to go down, say, the route of wider distribution and lower price points because of the risk (the risk being that they would need to lower prices before finding the extra customers, and it much cheaper operationally to charge fewer customers a lot than chase lots of smaller transactions) and the short term hit on some big areas of business. Strategically, jumping before your peers risks leaving you open to being acquired: Elsevier, Springer etc are pretty acquisitive and scale is a benefit because of the leverage you get.
The business model is based on running mature, cash cow businesses efficiently until the tipping point when a disruptive change happens and the quality content - i.e. the contributors - migrates elsewhere.
On piracy: definitely an issue and definitely hurts long term. Not so much peer-to-peer emailing but there has been a noticeable shift in attitudes towards copyright integrity and IP with the advent of digital publishing and aggregation. This is true in America and Europe. It is doubly so in China and India where students especially think nothing of downloading and putting whole catalogues of newly published content online. Some sites in China even download all your stuff and resell it. It's like the wild west. This problem isn't really driving high prices for publishers of academic journals but is causing problems for publishers of niche, low volume/high price publishers of online content that has a high cost to produce and a limited audience.
*Yes, I am aware the maths doesn't quite tally
posted by MuffinMan at 2:17 AM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
>I mean, c'mon, filesharing? I see that in the category of things like, "Smoking commercial marijuana."
-klangklangston
>Fuck this shit. Marijuana is not a valid lifestyle choice, stoner culture cannot really be described as much more than pathetic, and it is its own worst enemy.
-Blasdelb
posted by phoque at 2:25 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
-klangklangston
>Fuck this shit. Marijuana is not a valid lifestyle choice, stoner culture cannot really be described as much more than pathetic, and it is its own worst enemy.
-Blasdelb
posted by phoque at 2:25 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Way to take a bite out of crime, BP! Truly inspiring.
posted by TrialByMedia at 2:47 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by TrialByMedia at 2:47 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
My old university would send you a .pdf when you requested a journal article by ILL. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
yeah we try to do this as much as possible but some publishers still have "fax" written into contracts or require you to send a notice that the PDF should be printed out and deleted after reading, or that you should print out a copy and give that to the patron after deleting the emailed PDF. Some libraries still send snail mail articles internationally because of copyright. It's kind of a bizarre mess, complicated by people who think that fair use means you can just scan all the things. What blasdelb does falls under a different section of the license and is totally fine. If people put articles emailed by him onto their course's blackboard, that's not fine, but that's a different copyright issue.
posted by jetlagaddict at 3:06 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
yeah we try to do this as much as possible but some publishers still have "fax" written into contracts or require you to send a notice that the PDF should be printed out and deleted after reading, or that you should print out a copy and give that to the patron after deleting the emailed PDF. Some libraries still send snail mail articles internationally because of copyright. It's kind of a bizarre mess, complicated by people who think that fair use means you can just scan all the things. What blasdelb does falls under a different section of the license and is totally fine. If people put articles emailed by him onto their course's blackboard, that's not fine, but that's a different copyright issue.
posted by jetlagaddict at 3:06 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
So now that everyone's finished (ahem) piling on, what purpose is served by keeping this thread open?
posted by teraflop at 3:09 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by teraflop at 3:09 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Thanks Bp, I've been seriously jonesing for an old skool meta - yer a legend.
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:14 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:14 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
We'll leave this open a bit longer since time zones on continents come into play and the member who has been addressed may or may not want to respond, but it wouldn't be great if they didn't get a chance because it all mostly happened overnight for them.
posted by taz (staff) at 3:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 3:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread, and more than likely we do not need proxy access through your library, as impressed as we all are by your library card.
Lots of people have an academic background but do not currently work in academia. Or are you suggesting that past doctoral or post-doc students for example aren't capable of understanding journal articles enough to add to threads they're relevant to?
posted by Dysk at 3:37 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Lots of people have an academic background but do not currently work in academia. Or are you suggesting that past doctoral or post-doc students for example aren't capable of understanding journal articles enough to add to threads they're relevant to?
posted by Dysk at 3:37 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
I am currently reading a book where I am personally cited in the acknowledgements
I got cited once, but then they changed their mind and left me ex-cited.
YAY THAT IS A VERY BAD JOKE I JUST MADE UP
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:43 AM on August 20, 2013 [35 favorites]
I got cited once, but then they changed their mind and left me ex-cited.
YAY THAT IS A VERY BAD JOKE I JUST MADE UP
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:43 AM on August 20, 2013 [35 favorites]
People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread, and more than likely we do not need proxy access through your library, as impressed as we all are by your library card.
I'm not going comment on the legality since I don't know what user license Blasdelb is working under. But this is elitist bullshit.
I've spent the last two years working in academia and not having access to entire swathes of high impact, field leading journals (e.g. no access to Autophagy despite it being one of the main themes of our lab). This isn't something weird about my lab or department, the journal access package is shared across all Universities in Ireland. As in, we're not a rich country so everyone has limited journal access. Interloans costs money and basically aren't an option for individual researchers. We're all still absolutely able to understand the research and discuss it competently even though we don't work somewhere as rich as you do. Prior to that I did my PhD in a horticultural research institute in NZ and our institute level journal access was terrible despite being an academically-affiliated research organisation (I had University access too, but not all the scientists did). In both of those cases we relied strongly on people with outside access from better institutions. And I've only worked in the Western academic system, there are lots of parts of the world which don't even get this much.
And right now my previous job has finished and I'm working on getting another one. So I have no paid journal access at all. Yet I'm still able to understand the articles posted in most mefi threads. So are my two friends who took maternity leave between positions so were without journal access for many months, having a baby didn't suddenly make them stupid. And that's just those of us trying for an academic career, many people with advanced degrees and thoughtful contributions to make gain employment outside of academia where they have little or no journal access. Often even people doing the kind of work which would be helped by being able to read peer reviewed research, including sometimes even people publishing that research.
And that's not even getting started on the many smart people I know who don't happen to have PhDs and yet are still able to read and understand research in specific areas, either due to their work experience or their life experience (e.g. people with health problems can be as well read or even better than their doctors in their specific area) or even just general interest and smartness coupled with a will to learn. I've had interesting high level discussions with people like this many times including in areas where I actually am an expert and able to judge their contribution, the idea that only academics are capable of adding to the discussion about peer reviewed research is odious.
Personally I am impressed by Blasdelb's library card. I wish I had one. And yet my PhD and understanding is still as good as anyone else's here despite my not currently being part of the privileged elite.
posted by shelleycat at 4:19 AM on August 20, 2013 [88 favorites]
I'm not going comment on the legality since I don't know what user license Blasdelb is working under. But this is elitist bullshit.
I've spent the last two years working in academia and not having access to entire swathes of high impact, field leading journals (e.g. no access to Autophagy despite it being one of the main themes of our lab). This isn't something weird about my lab or department, the journal access package is shared across all Universities in Ireland. As in, we're not a rich country so everyone has limited journal access. Interloans costs money and basically aren't an option for individual researchers. We're all still absolutely able to understand the research and discuss it competently even though we don't work somewhere as rich as you do. Prior to that I did my PhD in a horticultural research institute in NZ and our institute level journal access was terrible despite being an academically-affiliated research organisation (I had University access too, but not all the scientists did). In both of those cases we relied strongly on people with outside access from better institutions. And I've only worked in the Western academic system, there are lots of parts of the world which don't even get this much.
And right now my previous job has finished and I'm working on getting another one. So I have no paid journal access at all. Yet I'm still able to understand the articles posted in most mefi threads. So are my two friends who took maternity leave between positions so were without journal access for many months, having a baby didn't suddenly make them stupid. And that's just those of us trying for an academic career, many people with advanced degrees and thoughtful contributions to make gain employment outside of academia where they have little or no journal access. Often even people doing the kind of work which would be helped by being able to read peer reviewed research, including sometimes even people publishing that research.
And that's not even getting started on the many smart people I know who don't happen to have PhDs and yet are still able to read and understand research in specific areas, either due to their work experience or their life experience (e.g. people with health problems can be as well read or even better than their doctors in their specific area) or even just general interest and smartness coupled with a will to learn. I've had interesting high level discussions with people like this many times including in areas where I actually am an expert and able to judge their contribution, the idea that only academics are capable of adding to the discussion about peer reviewed research is odious.
Personally I am impressed by Blasdelb's library card. I wish I had one. And yet my PhD and understanding is still as good as anyone else's here despite my not currently being part of the privileged elite.
posted by shelleycat at 4:19 AM on August 20, 2013 [88 favorites]
Researchers don't get paid by publishers, they get paid by their institutions and/or by grants from funding agencies. Grants I've seen range from money from the usual government offices you've all heard of to one-off corporate donations to a researcher investigating a problem that had suddenly become very relevant to their interests.
So their interest in the sustainability of their publishers -- who if anything slow down the trajectory of their research by the glacial (by contemporary standards) publication process -- is nuanced at best, and usually accommodates a willingness to provide access on the side to anybody who's displayed an interest in their work and asks the right questions.
In some fields, the really interesting work is presented at conferences rather than in journals anyway. The time lag between submitting the work and presenting is shorter, and the real-time feedback from peers gets back into their own subsequent research faster. Conferences also seem to harbor as filesharing live-action roleplay, with everybody who's sufficiently tech-literate swapping USB keys with research materials during conference breaks.
I'm not a researcher, but I've worked on the periphery of a couple different science fields. I dunno... I've seen people who wring their hands over the viability of traditional publishing models, but mostly out of concern that access to the best published research is becoming more constrained, rather than less.
posted by ardgedee at 4:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
So their interest in the sustainability of their publishers -- who if anything slow down the trajectory of their research by the glacial (by contemporary standards) publication process -- is nuanced at best, and usually accommodates a willingness to provide access on the side to anybody who's displayed an interest in their work and asks the right questions.
In some fields, the really interesting work is presented at conferences rather than in journals anyway. The time lag between submitting the work and presenting is shorter, and the real-time feedback from peers gets back into their own subsequent research faster. Conferences also seem to harbor as filesharing live-action roleplay, with everybody who's sufficiently tech-literate swapping USB keys with research materials during conference breaks.
I'm not a researcher, but I've worked on the periphery of a couple different science fields. I dunno... I've seen people who wring their hands over the viability of traditional publishing models, but mostly out of concern that access to the best published research is becoming more constrained, rather than less.
posted by ardgedee at 4:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
Thanks for a great callout of how awesome Blasdelb is! Definitely favorited.
posted by corb at 5:03 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by corb at 5:03 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
(And by that I mean Blasdelb, not you.)
posted by corb at 5:04 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 5:04 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
o.0
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:09 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:09 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
taz: We'll leave this open a bit longer since time zones on continents come into play and the member who has been addressed may or may not want to respond, but it wouldn't be great if they didn't get a chance because it all mostly happened overnight for them.
I guess I understand that thought, but there is really no need for anyone to respond to a callout this embarrassing. Sorry, BP, I usually think you are an OK guy, but you glubbed up on this one.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:21 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I guess I understand that thought, but there is really no need for anyone to respond to a callout this embarrassing. Sorry, BP, I usually think you are an OK guy, but you glubbed up on this one.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:21 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
So their interest in the sustainability of their publishers -- who if anything slow down the trajectory of their research by the glacial (by contemporary standards) publication process
Oh god yes. Currently I have a co-authored book chapter which finally might get published this year, 30 odd months since it was written, a journal paper which was submitted at the start of April and still has been sent out to reviewers despite the journal's website stated intention of having a 3 month turn around for the initial review process, not to mention a conference paper that was rejected due to it being unoriginal. It was suggested that I should refer to a PhD thesis which had already covered those issues, and which I'm pretty sure I actually wrote, given that it has my name on it an all, and I distinctly remember doing the research on which it is based.
Academic publishing is seriously broken. MuffinMan up thread mentioned a 50%+ net profit margin, so it clearly isn't broken for the big academic publishers, but such rent seeking can't continue indefinitely.
posted by Hello, I'm David McGahan at 5:30 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
Oh god yes. Currently I have a co-authored book chapter which finally might get published this year, 30 odd months since it was written, a journal paper which was submitted at the start of April and still has been sent out to reviewers despite the journal's website stated intention of having a 3 month turn around for the initial review process, not to mention a conference paper that was rejected due to it being unoriginal. It was suggested that I should refer to a PhD thesis which had already covered those issues, and which I'm pretty sure I actually wrote, given that it has my name on it an all, and I distinctly remember doing the research on which it is based.
Academic publishing is seriously broken. MuffinMan up thread mentioned a 50%+ net profit margin, so it clearly isn't broken for the big academic publishers, but such rent seeking can't continue indefinitely.
posted by Hello, I'm David McGahan at 5:30 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
Oh hell, I never even heard of Pirate Bay, so I'm as excited as all get out now. Thanks BP!
posted by kinetic at 5:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by kinetic at 5:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
Also, the thread to which you linked is like the platonic form of a thread in which blasdelb is acting like a mensch, and is a fascinating discussion besides, so I thank you for drawing my attention to it.
posted by gauche at 5:44 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by gauche at 5:44 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
I disagree. With all of your. MeFiMail me for citations.
I won't provide them, of course, because that would be ILLEGAL. POSSIBLY.
posted by Eideteker at 6:01 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
I won't provide them, of course, because that would be ILLEGAL. POSSIBLY.
posted by Eideteker at 6:01 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
You know how sometimes you get two users confused because their usernames are sorta similar? Well, I think I've finally got Blazecock Pileon and Blasdelb straight.
posted by colfax at 6:06 AM on August 20, 2013 [20 favorites]
posted by colfax at 6:06 AM on August 20, 2013 [20 favorites]
It took me years to realize that Blaselb and Blasdelf are different people, and since they don't agree with each other on everything, I had the oddest opinion of that imaginary composite person.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:28 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:28 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Speaking as an unabashed non-academic, academic GRAR is my favorite GRAR here. I'd love to compile all of the academic Asks and academic FPP comments together, call it AcAdeMeFi and I'd never have to watch TV drama again.
posted by kimberussell at 6:32 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by kimberussell at 6:32 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
He can do that at the next Benelux meet, if somebody brings a camera.
posted by MartinWisse at 6:43 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by MartinWisse at 6:43 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Rap Battle, really? I guess this could be fun,
...Aww shit here we go,
Dude, Dude, you're always going off on trivial shit without warning,
What the fuck led you to post this at 3:30 in my morning?
I don't have time for you,
Honestly, I feel like I've got much better shit to do,
But so long as we're here,
and you seem so ignorantly sincere,
Lets lay some truth on you.
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and it shows,
The last time anyone was this stupid, someone was about to get a not quite free banjo.
Academic publishing gets worse than you think it does,
And just doesn't work the way you think it does,
And personal sharing of access has little effect on the industry because,
It gives access specifically to those who wouldn't seek it anyway,
Those who actually buy access use their budgets to pay.
I'm told that the rights to what I'm doing are even generally cheap
Ironically,
If those Elsevier fuckers have a defender on Metafilter its me,
All you're doing is licking the boot that kicks you.
Having the click through data for my LinksToTheDamnPaper.org, I have reservations too,
But you don't need to be a physicist to ride a bicycle,
You just need to invest time time and thought, which anyone can grapple.
The only way to learn science is to do science,
and if people are going to do it they'll need help not your petty simple vengeance.
That thread had problems though, and you were one of them,
Early thread shitting and a loud sciolism of STEM.
Anger in ignorance, I think, is Metafilter's greatest vice,
And you embody it when you just can't seem to say anything meaningful or anything nice.
Go hug someone and get the fuck out of your head,
Or call someone out in one of these threads.
There is a better orientation to have with metafilter,
Than petty MeTas or 'rap battles' or just shit out of kilter.
Fuck the hating, this place is better with love.
More than that though, especially when we have an attidude of
not so much seeking
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
I'm always available for memails or hugs if you feel so moved Blazecock.
posted by Blasdelb at 6:44 AM on August 20, 2013 [462 favorites]
...Aww shit here we go,
Dude, Dude, you're always going off on trivial shit without warning,
What the fuck led you to post this at 3:30 in my morning?
I don't have time for you,
Honestly, I feel like I've got much better shit to do,
But so long as we're here,
and you seem so ignorantly sincere,
Lets lay some truth on you.
You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and it shows,
The last time anyone was this stupid, someone was about to get a not quite free banjo.
Academic publishing gets worse than you think it does,
And just doesn't work the way you think it does,
And personal sharing of access has little effect on the industry because,
It gives access specifically to those who wouldn't seek it anyway,
Those who actually buy access use their budgets to pay.
I'm told that the rights to what I'm doing are even generally cheap
Ironically,
If those Elsevier fuckers have a defender on Metafilter its me,
All you're doing is licking the boot that kicks you.
Having the click through data for my LinksToTheDamnPaper.org, I have reservations too,
But you don't need to be a physicist to ride a bicycle,
You just need to invest time time and thought, which anyone can grapple.
The only way to learn science is to do science,
and if people are going to do it they'll need help not your petty simple vengeance.
That thread had problems though, and you were one of them,
Early thread shitting and a loud sciolism of STEM.
Anger in ignorance, I think, is Metafilter's greatest vice,
And you embody it when you just can't seem to say anything meaningful or anything nice.
Go hug someone and get the fuck out of your head,
Or call someone out in one of these threads.
There is a better orientation to have with metafilter,
Than petty MeTas or 'rap battles' or just shit out of kilter.
Fuck the hating, this place is better with love.
More than that though, especially when we have an attidude of
not so much seeking
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
I'm always available for memails or hugs if you feel so moved Blazecock.
posted by Blasdelb at 6:44 AM on August 20, 2013 [462 favorites]
Wow.
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:47 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:47 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
OH SNAP.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:48 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:48 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Wow.
posted by Bugbread at 6:48 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Bugbread at 6:48 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Welp.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:48 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:48 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Okay, that was fun, hilarious, awesome and epic. Well done!
Blasdelb: "sciolism"
And I learned a new word. Thanks.
posted by zarq at 6:49 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
Blasdelb: "sciolism"
And I learned a new word. Thanks.
posted by zarq at 6:49 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
Pope Guilty: "It took me years to realize that Blaselb and Blasdelf are different people"
What??
posted by Bugbread at 6:49 AM on August 20, 2013
What??
posted by Bugbread at 6:49 AM on August 20, 2013
(applause)
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 6:49 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 6:49 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
(╯°□°）╯ ==O
posted by zombieflanders at 6:50 AM on August 20, 2013 [24 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 6:50 AM on August 20, 2013 [24 favorites]
I would watch the hell out of an academia themed 8 Mile ripoff starring Blasdelb. Someone set up the Kickstarter.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:50 AM on August 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:50 AM on August 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
It took me years to realize that Blaselb and Blasdelf are different people
They're actually brothers.
posted by grouse at 6:51 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
They're actually brothers.
posted by grouse at 6:51 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
"What??"
Blasdelf is my older brother
posted by Blasdelb at 6:51 AM on August 20, 2013 [22 favorites]
Blasdelf is my older brother
posted by Blasdelb at 6:51 AM on August 20, 2013 [22 favorites]
Do you understand that that's an even crazier thing to find out?
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 6:55 AM on August 20, 2013 [60 favorites]
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 6:55 AM on August 20, 2013 [60 favorites]
Blasdelf is my older brother
Mind = Blown.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 6:55 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
Mind = Blown.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 6:55 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
Blasdelb the Funkee Homosapien
posted by zombieflanders at 6:56 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 6:56 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
Blasdelb: " Blasdelf is my older brother"
*mind blown*
*bits everywhere*
posted by zarq at 6:56 AM on August 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
*mind blown*
*bits everywhere*
posted by zarq at 6:56 AM on August 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
THIS HAS JUST JUSTIFIED NOT CLOSING THE THREAD.
Mods: all-prescient, apparently.
posted by corb at 6:57 AM on August 20, 2013 [33 favorites]
Mods: all-prescient, apparently.
posted by corb at 6:57 AM on August 20, 2013 [33 favorites]
GASSSSSSS FAAAAAAAACE
posted by Rock Steady at 6:58 AM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 6:58 AM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
But so long as we're here,
and you seem so ignorantly sincere,
Lets lay some truth on you.
/me claps
posted by RainyJay at 6:59 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
and you seem so ignorantly sincere,
Lets lay some truth on you.
/me claps
posted by RainyJay at 6:59 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
OK so that reply up there may have brought tears to my eyes and maybe I need to get out more.
posted by shelleycat at 6:59 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by shelleycat at 6:59 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
Will the audio version show up in Music sometime soon?
posted by Area Man at 7:02 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Area Man at 7:02 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Nice nod to St. Francis up in there, too.
posted by gauche at 7:05 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by gauche at 7:05 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
corb: "THIS HAS JUST JUSTIFIED NOT CLOSING THE THREAD."
Yeah, I SO wanna see BP's rap response now.
posted by zarq at 7:08 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I SO wanna see BP's rap response now.
posted by zarq at 7:08 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Have you ever MeMail'd a toe? You will. And the company that will bring it to you is AT&T.
posted by blue_beetle at 7:12 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 7:12 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
Raise your hand if you have ever been personally victimized by Blasdelb.
posted by Ashen at 7:20 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Ashen at 7:20 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I SO wanna see BP's rap response now.
I'm hoping for a Bizzy B/Kool Moe Dee style battle.
posted by Ham Snadwich at 7:22 AM on August 20, 2013
I'm hoping for a Bizzy B/Kool Moe Dee style battle.
posted by Ham Snadwich at 7:22 AM on August 20, 2013
See? Every cloud has a silver lining.
A silver lining that spits sick rhymes and drops the mic when it's done.
posted by double block and bleed at 7:22 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
A silver lining that spits sick rhymes and drops the mic when it's done.
posted by double block and bleed at 7:22 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
All of the phrases I know that could properly sum up Blasdelb's awesome takedown are sexual and kind of problematic in one way or another.
I'll have to settle for saying BP got served, I guess.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:23 AM on August 20, 2013
I'll have to settle for saying BP got served, I guess.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:23 AM on August 20, 2013
sciolism
I learned a very useful word today
posted by ook at 7:23 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
I learned a very useful word today
posted by ook at 7:23 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
Have you ever MeMail'd a toe?
You wouldn't MeMail a toe.
You wouldn't MeMail a car.
posted by Acheman at 7:25 AM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
You wouldn't MeMail a toe.
You wouldn't MeMail a car.
posted by Acheman at 7:25 AM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
Imma leave this tab open all day in honor of what just happened.
posted by reverend cuttle at 7:28 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by reverend cuttle at 7:28 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
How about another response in the form of a play with Blasdelb cast as the Ghosts of Academia Past, Present, and Future, wherein he tries......
Get out.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:29 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Get out.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:29 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
hal_c_on: Also, anybody got a digital copy of Maad city to borrow?
Stream it, dude (Grooveshark stream of the album)
posted by filthy light thief at 7:30 AM on August 20, 2013
Stream it, dude (Grooveshark stream of the album)
posted by filthy light thief at 7:30 AM on August 20, 2013
Blasdelb, the for-profit publishing model is shitty enough without you doing what you can to help make it worse. It's very impressive that you show off having a library card in Every. Damn. Thread. even tangentially related to science — which that bit of pseudo-journalism wasn't, really — but you're not supposed to use it to redistribute journal articles with random groups of people outside your institution.
I'm always available for memails or hugs if you feel so moved Blazecock.
You ooze sincerity (especially given the last time the moderators had to delete your comments in my direction), but I will gracefully pass, thank you.
Just stop making life more difficult for the rest of us who actually do this for a living. Cheers.
To everyone else, I clearly forgot this is high school for some of you. Didn't mean to interrupt your regularly-scheduled popularity contest. Apologies for calling out the cool kid!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:34 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm always available for memails or hugs if you feel so moved Blazecock.
You ooze sincerity (especially given the last time the moderators had to delete your comments in my direction), but I will gracefully pass, thank you.
Just stop making life more difficult for the rest of us who actually do this for a living. Cheers.
To everyone else, I clearly forgot this is high school for some of you. Didn't mean to interrupt your regularly-scheduled popularity contest. Apologies for calling out the cool kid!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:34 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Area Man: "Will the audio version show up in Music sometime soon?"
I’m not sure how I feel about beefing, however positively focused, ending up in MeMusic but if its ok with cortex as well as his vision for the place, and someone with more talent and equipment is willing to do it, than that would be totally awesome with me.
posted by Blasdelb at 7:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I’m not sure how I feel about beefing, however positively focused, ending up in MeMusic but if its ok with cortex as well as his vision for the place, and someone with more talent and equipment is willing to do it, than that would be totally awesome with me.
posted by Blasdelb at 7:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
How does Blasdelb "make it worse".
you're not supposed to use it to redistribute journal articles with random groups of people outside your institution
says who?
BTW, I do this for a living. SHARE ALL MY PAPER(S) PLEASE! you can have every single last one of them. MeMail me if you want them.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
you're not supposed to use it to redistribute journal articles with random groups of people outside your institution
says who?
BTW, I do this for a living. SHARE ALL MY PAPER(S) PLEASE! you can have every single last one of them. MeMail me if you want them.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
On lack of preview,
posted by Blasdelb at 7:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [29 favorites]
"To everyone else, I clearly forgot this is high school for some of you. Didn't mean to interrupt your regularly-scheduled popularity contest. Apologies for calling out the cool kid!"Oh come on!
posted by Blasdelb at 7:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [29 favorites]
Apologies for calling out the cool kid!
Or for being wrongheaded and not engaging the discussion as well as others here have? I mean, it's not going to be easy because the general trend, based upon some pretty decently cited logic/arguments, seems to be against your claims, which are based on woo and fairy dust so far, but just pushing responsibility for defending your side of things aside because you have been so wronged is pretty sad.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [17 favorites]
Or for being wrongheaded and not engaging the discussion as well as others here have? I mean, it's not going to be easy because the general trend, based upon some pretty decently cited logic/arguments, seems to be against your claims, which are based on woo and fairy dust so far, but just pushing responsibility for defending your side of things aside because you have been so wronged is pretty sad.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [17 favorites]
BP do you have any evidence at all that what Blasdelb is doing is actually illegal? Because sharing single articles with individuals for the purposes of discussing them is pretty explicitly permitted by many institutional access agreements. Do you have any reason to believe that this exception doesn't apply in this instance?
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 7:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 7:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
Blazecock Pileon, that doesn't even rhyme.
posted by corb at 7:41 AM on August 20, 2013 [124 favorites]
posted by corb at 7:41 AM on August 20, 2013 [124 favorites]
To everyone else, I clearly forgot this is high school for some of you. Didn't mean to interrupt your regularly-scheduled popularity contest. Apologies for calling out the cool kid!
Adjusted for the length of time you've both been here, you have at least as many favorites as he does, so this comes off exceptionally petty and hollow.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:41 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
Adjusted for the length of time you've both been here, you have at least as many favorites as he does, so this comes off exceptionally petty and hollow.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:41 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
BP do you have any evidence at all that what Blasdelb is doing is actually illegal? Because sharing single articles with individuals for the purposes of discussing them is pretty explicitly permitted by many institutional access agreements. Do you have any reason to believe that this exception doesn't apply in this instance?
Furthermore, are you prepared to put your rebuttal in the form of a rap?
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:42 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
Furthermore, are you prepared to put your rebuttal in the form of a rap?
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:42 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
you're not supposed to use it to redistribute journal articles with random groups of people outside your institution
That depends on the rights given in the agreement between the publishers and the institution's library.
posted by Area Man at 7:42 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
That depends on the rights given in the agreement between the publishers and the institution's library.
posted by Area Man at 7:42 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Just stop making life more difficult for the rest of us who actually do this for a living.
Please stop pretending you speak for all scientists. I do this for a living and Blasdelb is making things easier for me if anything, as does anyone who tries to actually educaate and engage with people outside our small, insulated peer group.
posted by shelleycat at 7:45 AM on August 20, 2013 [47 favorites]
Please stop pretending you speak for all scientists. I do this for a living and Blasdelb is making things easier for me if anything, as does anyone who tries to actually educaate and engage with people outside our small, insulated peer group.
posted by shelleycat at 7:45 AM on August 20, 2013 [47 favorites]
(or I will do it for a living once someone starts paying me again!)
posted by shelleycat at 7:45 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by shelleycat at 7:45 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Furthermore, are you prepared to put your rebuttal in the form of a rap?
Really, it was fun and all and if we see more of this sort of thing (from either side) I'll be as thrilled as the rest of you, but if it's not BP's forte then maybe continuing to poke/prod for it isn't the best way to get a honest defense/engagement.
The logic presented by the aforementioned rap battle and the claims by other mefites here, who believe it or not do work in the sciences as well *gasp*, does however still stand uncontested.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:46 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Really, it was fun and all and if we see more of this sort of thing (from either side) I'll be as thrilled as the rest of you, but if it's not BP's forte then maybe continuing to poke/prod for it isn't the best way to get a honest defense/engagement.
The logic presented by the aforementioned rap battle and the claims by other mefites here, who believe it or not do work in the sciences as well *gasp*, does however still stand uncontested.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:46 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Blasdelf is my older brother
- posted by Blasdelb
But then shouldn't he be Blasdela?
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 7:47 AM on August 20, 2013 [17 favorites]
- posted by Blasdelb
But then shouldn't he be Blasdela?
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 7:47 AM on August 20, 2013 [17 favorites]
Blazecock Pileon: "but you're not supposed to use it to redistribute journal articles with random groups of people outside your institution.
"
I asked my university's research librarian about this. The response was basically, "it depends on the journal or publication." The example she gave was for the most popular academic journal on campus and concerned access to the online version -- querying the database and accessing from off campus was a sensitive and controlled matter. Sharing a saved document via email was "not a concern for (the school)". She was, however, unable to generalize this. The university has subscriptions to many databases and journals, each with their own contracts and stipulations.
posted by boo_radley at 7:51 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
"
I asked my university's research librarian about this. The response was basically, "it depends on the journal or publication." The example she gave was for the most popular academic journal on campus and concerned access to the online version -- querying the database and accessing from off campus was a sensitive and controlled matter. Sharing a saved document via email was "not a concern for (the school)". She was, however, unable to generalize this. The university has subscriptions to many databases and journals, each with their own contracts and stipulations.
posted by boo_radley at 7:51 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
This thread is chock full of Wow Moments!
1. Why a MeTa instead of a MeMail?
2. Holy monkeys, Blasdelb blew that shit up!
3. Blasdelb and Blasdelf are brothers?!
4. Blazecock Pileon ... wow. Just ... wow. Are you okay? Is something big going on? Is this just because you think you have a grudge thing going with Blasdelb? Did you not see all of the people saying that what he was offering to do isn't the reason you pay so much for access and that it's totally all right? Maybe check that out. It could give you some breathing room and decrease the worry and stress in your life.
posted by batmonkey at 7:54 AM on August 20, 2013 [15 favorites]
1. Why a MeTa instead of a MeMail?
2. Holy monkeys, Blasdelb blew that shit up!
3. Blasdelb and Blasdelf are brothers?!
4. Blazecock Pileon ... wow. Just ... wow. Are you okay? Is something big going on? Is this just because you think you have a grudge thing going with Blasdelb? Did you not see all of the people saying that what he was offering to do isn't the reason you pay so much for access and that it's totally all right? Maybe check that out. It could give you some breathing room and decrease the worry and stress in your life.
posted by batmonkey at 7:54 AM on August 20, 2013 [15 favorites]
'Blasdelb: "sciolism"
And I learned a new word. Thanks.'
Also useful in the next thread over.
posted by Eideteker at 7:56 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
And I learned a new word. Thanks.'
Also useful in the next thread over.
posted by Eideteker at 7:56 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
"You wouldn't MeMail a toe."
You want a toe? I can MeMail you a toe. With polish.
posted by Eideteker at 7:57 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
You want a toe? I can MeMail you a toe. With polish.
posted by Eideteker at 7:57 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Just stop making life more difficult for the rest of us who actually do this for a living.
Blasdelb offering to disseminate scientific publications makes it easier for me, and I do it for a living. You keep asserting that this somehow makes life more difficult for us, but there is no evidence behind that assertion.
posted by grouse at 7:58 AM on August 20, 2013 [16 favorites]
Blasdelb offering to disseminate scientific publications makes it easier for me, and I do it for a living. You keep asserting that this somehow makes life more difficult for us, but there is no evidence behind that assertion.
posted by grouse at 7:58 AM on August 20, 2013 [16 favorites]
Blasdelf is my older brother
Serious respect to your folks for their expert MeFite-making abilities!
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:01 AM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
Serious respect to your folks for their expert MeFite-making abilities!
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:01 AM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
Also, I think one important thing to note (if I'm understanding the mechanics correctly) is that when you visit Blazecock's profile page, it says, "MEFI MAIL DISABLED" in big letters - so I take that to mean he couldn't dialogue in Blasdelb in good faith privately even if he wanted to.
So, we have this MetaTalk thread, which aside from the awesome rap is just BP repeating the same thing over and over and over again like some kind of mantra and refusing to engage with the dozens of people who have come here to talk to him about his ridiculous thesis.
posted by kbanas at 8:06 AM on August 20, 2013
So, we have this MetaTalk thread, which aside from the awesome rap is just BP repeating the same thing over and over and over again like some kind of mantra and refusing to engage with the dozens of people who have come here to talk to him about his ridiculous thesis.
posted by kbanas at 8:06 AM on August 20, 2013
Just stop making life more difficult for the rest of us who actually do this for a living. Cheers.
To everyone else, I clearly forgot this is high school for some of you. Didn't mean to interrupt your regularly-scheduled popularity contest. Apologies for calling out the cool kid!
Well that was... underwhelming? Disingenuous? Either/ or?
In response: Sharing of academic papers with individuals (which is what was going on here) is just how professional collegiality works. I'm a scientist and I do research for a living. I'll be damned if I'll be included in BP's "us who actually do this for a living" though. Count me out of that. I like discussing science and I like discussing it even more with folks who've actually read the paper.
posted by Alice Russel-Wallace at 8:08 AM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
To everyone else, I clearly forgot this is high school for some of you. Didn't mean to interrupt your regularly-scheduled popularity contest. Apologies for calling out the cool kid!
Well that was... underwhelming? Disingenuous? Either/ or?
In response: Sharing of academic papers with individuals (which is what was going on here) is just how professional collegiality works. I'm a scientist and I do research for a living. I'll be damned if I'll be included in BP's "us who actually do this for a living" though. Count me out of that. I like discussing science and I like discussing it even more with folks who've actually read the paper.
posted by Alice Russel-Wallace at 8:08 AM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
I'm a scientist and I do research for a living. I'll be damned if I'll be included in BP's "us who actually do this for a living" though. Count me out of that. I like discussing science and I like discussing it even more with folks who've actually read the paper.
But remember - if we were smart enough to understand the paper, we would already have access - so basically he's just protecting idiots from themselves.
posted by kbanas at 8:10 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
But remember - if we were smart enough to understand the paper, we would already have access - so basically he's just protecting idiots from themselves.
posted by kbanas at 8:10 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
You know, if there's one thing I find infuriating about MeTa, it's when someone posts some callout and doesn't bother to elaborate on sincere questions posed to them about their grievance, but instead responds with dismissive sarcasm, re-phrasing of the OP, and claims that they are the victims of a popularity contest. It does nothing to improve the community here.
If this is an actual issue that you're interested in discussing wrt to Metafilter policy on sharing scholarly articles, why not participate in this thread more and/or better? Elsewise, it just comes across as some weirdly personal grudge you have against Blasdelb.
I mean I'm sorry you feel shunned and laughed at or whatever, and that we're all rallying around "the cool kid", but it's not like your own participation in this MeTa you started has been stellar, either. Sorry man.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:12 AM on August 20, 2013 [39 favorites]
If this is an actual issue that you're interested in discussing wrt to Metafilter policy on sharing scholarly articles, why not participate in this thread more and/or better? Elsewise, it just comes across as some weirdly personal grudge you have against Blasdelb.
I mean I'm sorry you feel shunned and laughed at or whatever, and that we're all rallying around "the cool kid", but it's not like your own participation in this MeTa you started has been stellar, either. Sorry man.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:12 AM on August 20, 2013 [39 favorites]
And boom goes the dynamite.
posted by iamabot at 8:13 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by iamabot at 8:13 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I appreciate leaving the thread open so Blasdelb could issue his magnificent response, but I think now maybe it can be closed? Further piling-on of BP, though well deserved, doesn't really seem a good use of MeTa.
posted by languagehat at 8:15 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 8:15 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
Blazecock Pileon: " Just stop making life more difficult for the rest of us who actually do this for a living. Cheers."
As has been explained to you already in this thread and the one on the Blue, there's no evidence that this is the case. In fact, three mefite research scientists have said they disagree with you.
If you can point to concrete ways that Blasdelb's wholly legal actions are hurting researchers, please do so.
To everyone else, I clearly forgot this is high school for some of you. Didn't mean to interrupt your regularly-scheduled popularity contest. Apologies for calling out the cool kid!"
You're not a victim here. You called someone out and they responded. You're also once again refusing to address salient responses to your callout from multiple users.
You might consider that many of us have been here as long as you. And we do remember your history on site.
At times you have been aggressively, needlessly antagonistic and insulting towards people whom you disagree with. You assume they are speaking in bad faith yet many times also refuse to address their explanations, responses or reasoning directly. And then, when the tide turns against you and other members actually notice what you're doing and start talking about it, you declare yourself a victim of the mefi mob and accuse us all of being unfair.
There have been times I thought you were right, and that you were piled on for no damned reason. I thought Dios in particular was an asshole to you back in the day. But you have also falsely accused people, and refused to acknowledge that you were wrong when presented with evidence. You have accused people of bad faith and then acted in bad faith yourself.
This pattern of behavior, in which you attack people and then refuse to address rebuttals is not helpful. It's depressing as well. I think many of us would agree that you're a bright, thoughtful guy who has contributed positively to mefi. But your self-righteous personal attacks against other users truly suck, and probably color the way people see you around here.
posted by zarq at 8:16 AM on August 20, 2013 [61 favorites]
As has been explained to you already in this thread and the one on the Blue, there's no evidence that this is the case. In fact, three mefite research scientists have said they disagree with you.
If you can point to concrete ways that Blasdelb's wholly legal actions are hurting researchers, please do so.
To everyone else, I clearly forgot this is high school for some of you. Didn't mean to interrupt your regularly-scheduled popularity contest. Apologies for calling out the cool kid!"
You're not a victim here. You called someone out and they responded. You're also once again refusing to address salient responses to your callout from multiple users.
You might consider that many of us have been here as long as you. And we do remember your history on site.
At times you have been aggressively, needlessly antagonistic and insulting towards people whom you disagree with. You assume they are speaking in bad faith yet many times also refuse to address their explanations, responses or reasoning directly. And then, when the tide turns against you and other members actually notice what you're doing and start talking about it, you declare yourself a victim of the mefi mob and accuse us all of being unfair.
There have been times I thought you were right, and that you were piled on for no damned reason. I thought Dios in particular was an asshole to you back in the day. But you have also falsely accused people, and refused to acknowledge that you were wrong when presented with evidence. You have accused people of bad faith and then acted in bad faith yourself.
This pattern of behavior, in which you attack people and then refuse to address rebuttals is not helpful. It's depressing as well. I think many of us would agree that you're a bright, thoughtful guy who has contributed positively to mefi. But your self-righteous personal attacks against other users truly suck, and probably color the way people see you around here.
posted by zarq at 8:16 AM on August 20, 2013 [61 favorites]
My scientific analysis of shitty Meta callouts says that there's at best a 5% chance the original poster uses any kind of logic to defend the callout. Much more likely they'll just repeat the accusation like a mantra and avoid anything resembling engagement.
Under certain conditions, the 5% chance can sometimes be 0% instead.
posted by kmz at 8:17 AM on August 20, 2013
Under certain conditions, the 5% chance can sometimes be 0% instead.
posted by kmz at 8:17 AM on August 20, 2013
Apologies for calling out the cool kid!
This thread would have gone pretty much exactly the same way if you called out some random person who had only been on the site for a week. Almost no one here agrees with your actual reasoning for the callout itself, regardless of any of the individuals involved. Which is why it was pointless to bring this to MetaTalk in the first place.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:18 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
This thread would have gone pretty much exactly the same way if you called out some random person who had only been on the site for a week. Almost no one here agrees with your actual reasoning for the callout itself, regardless of any of the individuals involved. Which is why it was pointless to bring this to MetaTalk in the first place.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:18 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
maybe rap battles should be required for each meta. If you can't put your grievance into metered rhyme, GTFO
posted by angrycat at 8:19 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 8:19 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
zarq: "You're not a victim here. "
That may be -- at worst, I feel like I don't know why this behavior has made BP's life onerous. Yes, we have "What you're doing is illegal, but more to the point, it helps publishing houses justify onerous terms to libraries I use for my research, which aggravates me to no end when I can't get access to articles related to my work. ", but I don't know how to get there from here. Please help me understand that, BP.
posted by boo_radley at 8:20 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
That may be -- at worst, I feel like I don't know why this behavior has made BP's life onerous. Yes, we have "What you're doing is illegal, but more to the point, it helps publishing houses justify onerous terms to libraries I use for my research, which aggravates me to no end when I can't get access to articles related to my work. ", but I don't know how to get there from here. Please help me understand that, BP.
posted by boo_radley at 8:20 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
If a rap battle won't solve this, I suggest a dance-off.
posted by inertia at 8:28 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by inertia at 8:28 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
Just stop making life more difficult for the rest of us who actually do this for a living. Cheers.
I don't know what you do, but this is the first time I've heard any kind of academic or scientist say that it should be more difficult for the public to access scientific papers. So, congratulations.
posted by no regrets, coyote at 8:28 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
I don't know what you do, but this is the first time I've heard any kind of academic or scientist say that it should be more difficult for the public to access scientific papers. So, congratulations.
posted by no regrets, coyote at 8:28 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
Holy shit, no-one's said it?
Blazecock Pileon: " Blazecock Pileon"
Eponysterical!
(this has been performance art, hasn't it?)
posted by notsnot at 8:37 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Blazecock Pileon: " Blazecock Pileon"
Eponysterical!
(this has been performance art, hasn't it?)
posted by notsnot at 8:37 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have tried to start up a few breakdance fights in previous threads, without much luck, which makes me feel my tutelage under Minneapolis breakdancer Nature Boy, seen in the "The Bird" sequence in Purple Rain, may have been wasted.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
as impressed as we all are by your library card
It's very impressive that you show off having a library card in Every. Damn. Thread
You must be, like, waaay more impressed than me by library cards.
posted by billiebee at 8:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
It's very impressive that you show off having a library card in Every. Damn. Thread
You must be, like, waaay more impressed than me by library cards.
posted by billiebee at 8:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
Weirdly, every single word in my previous sentence is true.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
I don't know what you do, but this is the first time I've heard any kind of academic or scientist say that it should be more difficult for the public to access scientific papers.
Steady on, he's not making any sort public interest argument. Just that he reckons it might contribute to inconvenience for his ilk.
posted by hawthorne at 8:39 AM on August 20, 2013
Steady on, he's not making any sort public interest argument. Just that he reckons it might contribute to inconvenience for his ilk.
posted by hawthorne at 8:39 AM on August 20, 2013
he doesn't even attempt to engage with the arguments being made
I'm guessing it comes from his perspective that if some other member has a different opinion or perspective it's because they're biased so why bother attempting to communicate with members who are biased and therefore insincere in their viewpoints?
Apologies for calling out the cool kid!
Another fine example.
posted by juiceCake at 8:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing it comes from his perspective that if some other member has a different opinion or perspective it's because they're biased so why bother attempting to communicate with members who are biased and therefore insincere in their viewpoints?
Apologies for calling out the cool kid!
Another fine example.
posted by juiceCake at 8:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Did someone go to a high school where the cool kids rallied around the winningest rhymes on MetaTalk?
posted by oceanjesse at 8:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by oceanjesse at 8:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
You must be, like, waaay more impressed than me by library cards.
Someone mentioned, perhaps in another thread, that the entire state of Connecticut has a one library card system. That's pretty impressive, even given that their state is pretty damn small.
So I like me some library access? I get it from my momma.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:41 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Someone mentioned, perhaps in another thread, that the entire state of Connecticut has a one library card system. That's pretty impressive, even given that their state is pretty damn small.
So I like me some library access? I get it from my momma.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:41 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Did someone go to a high school where the cool kids rallied around the winningest rhymes on MetaTalk?
My high school very nearly elected as our class president a guy who ran under the banner of the apathy party and who was going to spend his senior year abroad. His speech to the student body consisted of just the words "If I am elected, I promise to leave the country."
We probably would have been nuts for somebody dropping mad science science in rhymed form on an internet forum, if such a thing existed in the 80s. Instead we just listened to new wave and argued about whether Prince was bisexual or not.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:44 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
My high school very nearly elected as our class president a guy who ran under the banner of the apathy party and who was going to spend his senior year abroad. His speech to the student body consisted of just the words "If I am elected, I promise to leave the country."
We probably would have been nuts for somebody dropping mad science science in rhymed form on an internet forum, if such a thing existed in the 80s. Instead we just listened to new wave and argued about whether Prince was bisexual or not.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 8:44 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
> Just stop making life more difficult for the rest of us who actually do this for a living.
Adding to the chorus: I do do this for a living, and I also reject the hypothesis that Blasdelb is doing anything deleterious.
I'm a faculty member at a research-I [or "very high" as it's called these days] university, where I teach and carry out federally-funded, grant-driven research in the hard sciences. My "living" is predicated on getting grants not only to support my research, but also to fund the publication fees which I must pay to get my work published in refereed journals. My ability to get those grants is in turn predicated on demonstrating an impact -- an impact which can only be made stronger by more people reading, discussing, and (hopefully!) citing my work.
PLEASE SHARE MY PAPERS WITH WILD ABANDON. Post them all over the web, torrent them, sneak them into the bonus tracks of CDs you copy for your friends, pass them out on street corners with an enticement of "free USB drives!" Slip them into your porno collection for your kids to find. Read them aloud on illicit low-power FM stations. Drop them in bundles from airplanes. Hell, c/p them instead of the Treaty of Westphalia. I lose exactly nothing from the sharing (not only am I making nothing to start with, I am actively paying!), but I stand to gain a lot.
And so too does every other scientist I know. In my many years of academic work, I have never encountered anyone with BP's attitude. Which leads me to this ProTip: If ever you want a journal article and can't get it due to a paywall, email the corresponding author. They'll very happily share it (if they're bothering to read their email, anyway); they may even offer to discuss it or point you to additional information, because nothing makes scientists happier than someone being interested in our work. And failing that, memail Blasdelb. Or me.
posted by Westringia F. at 8:44 AM on August 20, 2013 [133 favorites]
Adding to the chorus: I do do this for a living, and I also reject the hypothesis that Blasdelb is doing anything deleterious.
I'm a faculty member at a research-I [or "very high" as it's called these days] university, where I teach and carry out federally-funded, grant-driven research in the hard sciences. My "living" is predicated on getting grants not only to support my research, but also to fund the publication fees which I must pay to get my work published in refereed journals. My ability to get those grants is in turn predicated on demonstrating an impact -- an impact which can only be made stronger by more people reading, discussing, and (hopefully!) citing my work.
PLEASE SHARE MY PAPERS WITH WILD ABANDON. Post them all over the web, torrent them, sneak them into the bonus tracks of CDs you copy for your friends, pass them out on street corners with an enticement of "free USB drives!" Slip them into your porno collection for your kids to find. Read them aloud on illicit low-power FM stations. Drop them in bundles from airplanes. Hell, c/p them instead of the Treaty of Westphalia. I lose exactly nothing from the sharing (not only am I making nothing to start with, I am actively paying!), but I stand to gain a lot.
And so too does every other scientist I know. In my many years of academic work, I have never encountered anyone with BP's attitude. Which leads me to this ProTip: If ever you want a journal article and can't get it due to a paywall, email the corresponding author. They'll very happily share it (if they're bothering to read their email, anyway); they may even offer to discuss it or point you to additional information, because nothing makes scientists happier than someone being interested in our work. And failing that, memail Blasdelb. Or me.
posted by Westringia F. at 8:44 AM on August 20, 2013 [133 favorites]
Yeah, can anyone here point to an academic that doesn't want their research disseminated?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:47 AM on August 20, 2013
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:47 AM on August 20, 2013
I am sure this all boils down to some grudge BP has against Blasdelb, although it would be a full time job to keep up with all of BP's grudges and bugbears, so who knows.
posted by Falconetti at 8:48 AM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
posted by Falconetti at 8:48 AM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
Which leads me to this ProTip: If ever you want a journal article and can't get it due to a paywall, email the corresponding author.
Blasdelb is not an author of said papers, so let's be at least clear about the situation: this isn't a paper's author sharing a few papers with one or two people on request.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:53 AM on August 20, 2013
Blasdelb is not an author of said papers, so let's be at least clear about the situation: this isn't a paper's author sharing a few papers with one or two people on request.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:53 AM on August 20, 2013
Blazecock Pileon: "Blasdelb, the for-profit publishing model is shitty enough without you doing what you can to help make it worse. It's very impressive that you show off having a library card in Every. Damn. Thread. even tangentially related to science — which that bit of pseudo-journalism wasn't, really — but you're not supposed to use it to redistribute journal articles with random groups of people outside your institution."
It's not fair that some people have access to publications through their institutions that others would have to pay hefty journal subscription fees to get. Okay.
A non-subscriber can read this content for free if they know someone with access to hook them up with the articles, which isn't fair because a lot of people would have no way of knowing how to get such a connection. Okay. (But they should ask their local librarian. But I digress.)
Those with access are not authorized to republish articles for "random groups of people" without permission. Okay. But sending an individual a specific article by their request is not same thing as republishing it for an audience. It is specifically not a violation of the institutional subscription policy of many academic institutions, nor many of the publishers' subscription policies.
Just because this isn't a broadly-equitable system of access to information doesn't mean that blasdeb himself is violating the letter or the spirit of any rules. Even thus, you just can personally disagree with his rationale for offering to send articles without requiring your disapproval to be the winning official Metafilter Policy. No cagematch needed.
posted by desuetude at 8:54 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
It's not fair that some people have access to publications through their institutions that others would have to pay hefty journal subscription fees to get. Okay.
A non-subscriber can read this content for free if they know someone with access to hook them up with the articles, which isn't fair because a lot of people would have no way of knowing how to get such a connection. Okay. (But they should ask their local librarian. But I digress.)
Those with access are not authorized to republish articles for "random groups of people" without permission. Okay. But sending an individual a specific article by their request is not same thing as republishing it for an audience. It is specifically not a violation of the institutional subscription policy of many academic institutions, nor many of the publishers' subscription policies.
Just because this isn't a broadly-equitable system of access to information doesn't mean that blasdeb himself is violating the letter or the spirit of any rules. Even thus, you just can personally disagree with his rationale for offering to send articles without requiring your disapproval to be the winning official Metafilter Policy. No cagematch needed.
posted by desuetude at 8:54 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
boo_radley: "I feel like I don't know why this behavior has made BP's life onerous. I don't know how to get there from here. Please help me understand that, BP."
Anything?
posted by boo_radley at 8:54 AM on August 20, 2013
Anything?
posted by boo_radley at 8:54 AM on August 20, 2013
OP chiming in to make a specific nitpick without engaging the rest of the discussion.
*check*
Keep it up, I almost have a bingo.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:55 AM on August 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
*check*
Keep it up, I almost have a bingo.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:55 AM on August 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
Shit yeah, Blasdelb!
Enthusiastically nth this. The bit with the banjo - comedy gold.
posted by sweetkid at 8:56 AM on August 20, 2013
I will gracefully pass, thank you.
The thing about self-applied meritorious adverbs is that they're usually disingenuous. Nothing about your contributions on this topic has been "graceful."
It's a bit like "kindly," as in "I'll kindly ask you to take your leave of me." It's not kind. It never is. It's a performative contradiction of kindliness.
Anyway, I don't think you've made this easier on yourself. But know that you are cared for, here, which is why you're getting such a hard time.
posted by anotherpanacea at 8:58 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
The thing about self-applied meritorious adverbs is that they're usually disingenuous. Nothing about your contributions on this topic has been "graceful."
It's a bit like "kindly," as in "I'll kindly ask you to take your leave of me." It's not kind. It never is. It's a performative contradiction of kindliness.
Anyway, I don't think you've made this easier on yourself. But know that you are cared for, here, which is why you're getting such a hard time.
posted by anotherpanacea at 8:58 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
I think it's supposed to be "graciously" anyway. Maybe. Neither works.
posted by sweetkid at 9:00 AM on August 20, 2013
posted by sweetkid at 9:00 AM on August 20, 2013
Blasdelb is not an author of said papers, so let's be at least clear about the situation: this isn't a paper's author sharing a few papers with one or two people on request.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 16:53 on August 20 [+] [!]
I think everyone already knows that. But well done on responding to the only part of Westringia F's comment that didn't require you to actually explain yourself, I guess.
posted by jonnyploy at 9:04 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 16:53 on August 20 [+] [!]
I think everyone already knows that. But well done on responding to the only part of Westringia F's comment that didn't require you to actually explain yourself, I guess.
posted by jonnyploy at 9:04 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
BP, you know I'm consistently skeptical about a lot of the "information wants to be free" stuff here on Metafilter, but as an academic (and one who has chaired my institution's faculty committee with responsibility for oversight of the libraries and spent a lot of time discussing the problems of outrageous journal pricing and restrictive copyright access etc. etc.) you're just 100% flat-out wrong about this issue, and you really, really need to start listening to the fact that every single person in this thread who actually knows about the issue--whether from a legal, librarian or academic perspective--is telling you that you're flat out wrong.
It's past time to just apologize to Blasdelb for getting the wrong end of the stick and let this thread sink into the memory hole.
posted by yoink at 9:08 AM on August 20, 2013 [19 favorites]
It's past time to just apologize to Blasdelb for getting the wrong end of the stick and let this thread sink into the memory hole.
posted by yoink at 9:08 AM on August 20, 2013 [19 favorites]
Blasdelb is not an author of said papers, so let's be at least clear about the situation: this isn't a paper's author sharing a few papers with one or two people on request.
Okay so once again: there are multiple ways of sharing papers that are a-okay. I share thousands of them every year. I get requests for various things online through various systems, faxed, handwritten and shipped from abroad, a couple from high schools, some from independent researchers, a couple from AskMefi questions. Aka: totally random groups of people. Who are also free to wander through the library during business hours and read whatever they want, too. Even if they don't have a science degree, or a degree at all! Why are they interested in forensics? I never want to know! Why do they like Dutch novels? Probably they're good books! Who are they? Not a clue! Maybe aliens hate paying fees to Elsevier too!
I fully understand how my institution's licensing works, and this usage-- a researcher emailing an article to one or two people to have a discussion-- is fine. If someone posted it onto academia.edu without permission, that 100% would not be fine. If someone reposted a full article onto an open website that was emailed from Blasdelb, that would probably not be fine though maybe, I don't know how licensing works in his country. Unless you have specific evidence about what he is doing or a way in which it has impacted your work or your field, this just seems weird and kind of mean. This site has 99 problems but the welcome sharing of academic knowledge and resources isn't one.
posted by jetlagaddict at 9:09 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
Okay so once again: there are multiple ways of sharing papers that are a-okay. I share thousands of them every year. I get requests for various things online through various systems, faxed, handwritten and shipped from abroad, a couple from high schools, some from independent researchers, a couple from AskMefi questions. Aka: totally random groups of people. Who are also free to wander through the library during business hours and read whatever they want, too. Even if they don't have a science degree, or a degree at all! Why are they interested in forensics? I never want to know! Why do they like Dutch novels? Probably they're good books! Who are they? Not a clue! Maybe aliens hate paying fees to Elsevier too!
I fully understand how my institution's licensing works, and this usage-- a researcher emailing an article to one or two people to have a discussion-- is fine. If someone posted it onto academia.edu without permission, that 100% would not be fine. If someone reposted a full article onto an open website that was emailed from Blasdelb, that would probably not be fine though maybe, I don't know how licensing works in his country. Unless you have specific evidence about what he is doing or a way in which it has impacted your work or your field, this just seems weird and kind of mean. This site has 99 problems but the welcome sharing of academic knowledge and resources isn't one.
posted by jetlagaddict at 9:09 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
BP, let's put this in science-friendly terms.
If the two choices are:
1) There is an elaborate, near 100% inclusive MeFi conspiracy to silence dissenting viewpoints based on user popularity.
2) You are wrong.
I would gently encourage you to apply Occam's Razor here.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:11 AM on August 20, 2013 [16 favorites]
If the two choices are:
1) There is an elaborate, near 100% inclusive MeFi conspiracy to silence dissenting viewpoints based on user popularity.
2) You are wrong.
I would gently encourage you to apply Occam's Razor here.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:11 AM on August 20, 2013 [16 favorites]
Adjusted for the length of time you've both been here, you have at least as many favorites as he does, so this comes off exceptionally petty and hollow.
I would like to see your regression. You can memail me the paper.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:11 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I would like to see your regression. You can memail me the paper.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:11 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by tilde at 9:14 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]It took me years to realize that Blaselb and Blasdelf are different peopleThey're actually brothers.
Together they make music.
---------------------------------
MetaFilter + PirateBay:- MetaBay
- PirateFilter
- MetaPirateFilterBay
- MeBay
PiMe. (Pronounced Pie Me, of course.)
posted by kmz at 9:16 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by kmz at 9:16 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
DirtyOldTown: "I would gently encourage you to apply Occam's Razor here."
BP is being lied to by his journal rep about the reasons for price hikes?
posted by boo_radley at 9:18 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
BP is being lied to by his journal rep about the reasons for price hikes?
posted by boo_radley at 9:18 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
Why is this idiotic thread still open?
posted by dfriedman at 9:19 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by dfriedman at 9:19 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
I think there might be a contradiction here:
People in academia can already access the articles in question ...
... when I can't get access to articles related to my work ...
Can people interested in the work get access to it or not?
posted by demiurge at 9:20 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
People in academia can already access the articles in question ...
... when I can't get access to articles related to my work ...
Can people interested in the work get access to it or not?
posted by demiurge at 9:20 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have never encountered anyone with BP's attitude.
Oh god I have, it's not actually that unusual. The idea that anyone who is not an academic staff member of a prestigious-enough (i.e. rich and, lets face it, male-dominated and white) University is not an acceptable audience for peer reviewed research and has nothing of use to say about the same is the usual exclusionary 'I'm keeping a firm hold on my privilege' story. Of course academic researchers don't want any old person reading the literature, how else are they going to keep the unwashed masses out of their ivory towers? What better way to protect the tenure system and traditional academic career path than to withhold information from those that don't fit? The easiest way to make sure that only our kind of person ever thinks of applying for postgraduate research in our departments is by making sure that they're the only ones with the knowledge or understanding or interest to do so. This isn't new.
I'm not naming names because I like being employed. And fortunately this attitude is disappearing at least partially because of the requirements of many grants for community involvement and translational impact, so it's not something I've seen at all recently. Part of that is also because I'm not the right sort of person in the first place (I'm a women and foreign and had a non-traditional career path) and part is because I do collaborative research which predisposes towards a different kind of person anyway.
But it's still around and it's still elitist bullshit.
posted by shelleycat at 9:21 AM on August 20, 2013 [17 favorites]
Oh god I have, it's not actually that unusual. The idea that anyone who is not an academic staff member of a prestigious-enough (i.e. rich and, lets face it, male-dominated and white) University is not an acceptable audience for peer reviewed research and has nothing of use to say about the same is the usual exclusionary 'I'm keeping a firm hold on my privilege' story. Of course academic researchers don't want any old person reading the literature, how else are they going to keep the unwashed masses out of their ivory towers? What better way to protect the tenure system and traditional academic career path than to withhold information from those that don't fit? The easiest way to make sure that only our kind of person ever thinks of applying for postgraduate research in our departments is by making sure that they're the only ones with the knowledge or understanding or interest to do so. This isn't new.
I'm not naming names because I like being employed. And fortunately this attitude is disappearing at least partially because of the requirements of many grants for community involvement and translational impact, so it's not something I've seen at all recently. Part of that is also because I'm not the right sort of person in the first place (I'm a women and foreign and had a non-traditional career path) and part is because I do collaborative research which predisposes towards a different kind of person anyway.
But it's still around and it's still elitist bullshit.
posted by shelleycat at 9:21 AM on August 20, 2013 [17 favorites]
BP is being lied to by his journal rep about the reasons for price hikes?
I've heard some amazing BS from the journal owners about why they need to charge such abusive amounts of money, but "people share the papers occasionally" has actually never been part of the discussion.
posted by yoink at 9:23 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
I've heard some amazing BS from the journal owners about why they need to charge such abusive amounts of money, but "people share the papers occasionally" has actually never been part of the discussion.
posted by yoink at 9:23 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
It's a performative contradiction of kindliness.
Very well said. It reminds me of when I call a man I am ready to come to blows with "friend" or "brother".
posted by Meatbomb at 9:24 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Very well said. It reminds me of when I call a man I am ready to come to blows with "friend" or "brother".
posted by Meatbomb at 9:24 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Of course academic researchers don't want any old person reading the literature, how else are they going to keep the unwashed masses out of their ivory towers? What better way to protect the tenure system and traditional academic career path than to withhold information from those that don't fit?
In three decades of experience in academia across three countries (and as the child of an academic) I have never heard anyone express this view. I'm sorry you have shitty colleagues, but they are utter fringe weirdos in the academic world. The whole business with online academic journals becoming a cash cow for a few prescient publishing companies is a pretty recent phenomenon and the academics are the victims of that piece of extortion, not its promoters.
posted by yoink at 9:26 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
In three decades of experience in academia across three countries (and as the child of an academic) I have never heard anyone express this view. I'm sorry you have shitty colleagues, but they are utter fringe weirdos in the academic world. The whole business with online academic journals becoming a cash cow for a few prescient publishing companies is a pretty recent phenomenon and the academics are the victims of that piece of extortion, not its promoters.
posted by yoink at 9:26 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
In before the thread closes for the rest of the popcorn at the bottom of the bowl. Damn the unpopped kernels.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 9:28 AM on August 20, 2013
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 9:28 AM on August 20, 2013
I have a library card, too! Does that make me a cool kid?
posted by gingerbeer at 9:28 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by gingerbeer at 9:28 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Damn the unpopped kernels.
But those are my favorite part!
posted by mmmbacon at 9:29 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
But those are my favorite part!
posted by mmmbacon at 9:29 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
demiurge: "Can people interested in the work get access to it or not?"
Oh, I can take this one: There's academics, and then there's professional/ technicals. If you're not an academic, the price can be much higher than if you were. I think (so take that with a grain of MSG) that the chemistry journals were particularly terrible in their pricing models for non-academics.
So yes, you can get it, but at different pricing tiers.
posted by boo_radley at 9:30 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh, I can take this one: There's academics, and then there's professional/ technicals. If you're not an academic, the price can be much higher than if you were. I think (so take that with a grain of MSG) that the chemistry journals were particularly terrible in their pricing models for non-academics.
So yes, you can get it, but at different pricing tiers.
posted by boo_radley at 9:30 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
When people email my advisor for copies of his papers or books, the message he sends back along with the PDF is usually something like "Here you go. Distribute this as widely as possible and deny everything." And he isn't even one of the open-access extremists in my field.
(That said, I'm a field where there's really no public-health or public policy implications for anything we do. A little learning is a dangerous thing, but nothing in linguistics is all that dangerous, so why worry? I've got one good friend in immunology and another in climatology, and both of them do complain about the frustration value of random laypeople getting their hands on a few cherrypicked articles and drawing harebrained conclusions. I would not be at all surprised if more conservative folks in those fields really did take the "lock down the libraries" angle that shelleycat is describing.)
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 9:30 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
(That said, I'm a field where there's really no public-health or public policy implications for anything we do. A little learning is a dangerous thing, but nothing in linguistics is all that dangerous, so why worry? I've got one good friend in immunology and another in climatology, and both of them do complain about the frustration value of random laypeople getting their hands on a few cherrypicked articles and drawing harebrained conclusions. I would not be at all surprised if more conservative folks in those fields really did take the "lock down the libraries" angle that shelleycat is describing.)
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 9:30 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
"Jimbob raises a pretty good point - if any information ever demanded to be free, it's academic papers published in peer-reviewed journals, not your weird-ass fuckin' LiveJournal entries from when you were seventeen and listening to a bunch of Neutral Milk Hotel and wondering why you just can't stop crying."The funny thing is, Blazecock is offbase enough that he isn't even wrong exactly. The information within most academic journals really does need to be at least not quite free and Elsevier and their ilk arn't really even the problem that is bankrupting libraries and keeping you from reading the science you pay for through taxes, they've just wiggled their way into owning much of it. There is a reason they've managed to insert themselves.
Large high powered journals cost a lot of money and need a lot of volunteer time to operate, they pay their editors, they pay for printing, they pay for copy editing, they pay for staff who assist the editors, they pay for staff who manage the peer review, they pay for the billing that they or their parent organization handles, they need peer reviewers, they need volunteer associate editors, and the non-profit ones usually also use any profit they make to pay for the more specific and less high powered journals that are built to lose money. Smaller more niche journals don't have the same kind of expenses, all of their editors are generally volunteers who are successful enough to have a name but not so successful that being an editor doesn't impact their CV, they generally have printing costs but small scale printing isn't as outrageous as it used to be, and they generally don't pay their reviewers or authors. However, someone still needs to copy edit the amazing ESL work that comes in for proper English, there is so much that is so close to good English you can't really turn it away and yet not quite good enough to print it. Someone still needs to manage the peer-review process, which can get complicated, and often messy, very fast. Someone still needs to go through the modern equivalent to the process of typesetting the pages, which is not what it used to be but nothing like trivial. Someone also needs to manage the website, deal with spam, handle administrative things like paying for stuff, arrange for advertising from corporations, and the million other little things that need doing. The kinds of editor's in chief who will lend credibility to a journal already have profoundly busy lives, hell, in order to attract them a small journal generally needs to provide paid administrative assistance to help them deal with the purely editorial stuff they need to do. Good luck getting a volunteer editorial board to do this kind of shit either. Professional staff is absolutely necessary, and hiring professionals is and should be expensive. All of this requires complex, and often really fragile, systems to generate the income as well as the free but profoundly specialized labor necessary to keep it all running. Elsevier and the like generally acquire journals by swooping in when an old editor in chief who did way too much for too long dies, or an asshole gets the wrong position and is not worth dealing with for anybody, or simply that no one in the community is willing to step forward anymore. Elsevier then make it very easy for everyone involved, and reaps massively excessive profits for the genuinely invaluable service they provide.
There are a whole bunch of imperfect solutions to generating the income necessary to keep a healthy journal running that don't involve sucking it out of libraries and the paywalls they bypass, but none of them so far are really anywhere near better enough to replace more than a small piece of the industry for complicated reasons. Until someone comes up with a magic solution to the inherent problems with pay to publish journals that the spam folder of my inbox reminds me of at a rate of about 20 times an hour, or there is something else that is honestly better, not destroying scientists ability to communicate in a meaningful way by making the information truly free to will continue to be a good idea.
That said, some things will disrupt the shitty business model we all still rely on, like posting library passwords or huge data dumps, and some things won't like personal sharing as part of a mutual conversation. The structural effect it has is similar to JSTOR's awesome project where people who need papers get them but without working so well for people who should be paying for papers.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:31 AM on August 20, 2013 [22 favorites]
In before the thread closes for the rest of the popcorn at the bottom of the bowl.
Not really helping anything, fwiw.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:31 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Not really helping anything, fwiw.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:31 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
But then shouldn't he be Blasdela?
Obviously they're working from youngest to oldest. Presumably they didn't start until their parents had completed their planned reproduction series.
The question I have is whether the youngest child in their family is Blasdela, in which case Blasdelb is the second youngest, or Blasdel0, in which case Blasdelb is the 11th youngest.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:32 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Obviously they're working from youngest to oldest. Presumably they didn't start until their parents had completed their planned reproduction series.
The question I have is whether the youngest child in their family is Blasdela, in which case Blasdelb is the second youngest, or Blasdel0, in which case Blasdelb is the 11th youngest.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:32 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
In computer science, I have never seen this view. In fact, I would say most papers are available on the author's websites. For example, see this list of SIGGRAPH 2013 papers available.
posted by demiurge at 9:32 AM on August 20, 2013
posted by demiurge at 9:32 AM on August 20, 2013
Speaking of science, is there a corollary to the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory that explains why an Interwebs poster, after finding himself in the tiniest of pits, whether of his own creation or not, is compelled to keep digging?
posted by Behemoth at 9:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Behemoth at 9:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
"The question I have is whether the youngest child in their family is Blasdela, in which case Blasdelb is the second youngest, or Blasdel0, in which case Blasdelb is the 11th youngest."
The next youngest would naturally be Blasdelg, but is in fact Suparnova
posted by Blasdelb at 9:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
The next youngest would naturally be Blasdelg, but is in fact Suparnova
posted by Blasdelb at 9:35 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
when you visit Blazecock's profile page, it says, "MEFI MAIL DISABLED" in big letters - so I take that to mean he couldn't dialogue in Blasdelb in good faith privately even if he wanted to
...unless he unchecked the "opt out of mefi mail" checkbox in his profile.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:36 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
...unless he unchecked the "opt out of mefi mail" checkbox in his profile.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:36 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
O.K., I'm beginning to suspect this will be quicker if every mefite who isn't a member of the Blasdel family steps forward.
posted by yoink at 9:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by yoink at 9:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
The next youngest would naturally be Blasdelg, but is in fact Suparnova
Oh my god...they're multiplying!
posted by zombieflanders at 9:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh my god...they're multiplying!
posted by zombieflanders at 9:38 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
yoink: "O.K., I'm beginning to suspect this will be quicker if every mefite who isn't a member of the Blasdel family steps forward."
are we counting their dog, Blasdarf?
posted by boo_radley at 9:39 AM on August 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
are we counting their dog, Blasdarf?
posted by boo_radley at 9:39 AM on August 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
rtha: "Do you even give a shit about this here meTa that you posted? Do you care that actual librarians have weighed in and disagreed with your accusations? Do you have any other non-snarky things to say about how you perceive a mefite's actions having an impact on site policies?"
SIGNS POINT TO NO
posted by scrump at 9:39 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
SIGNS POINT TO NO
posted by scrump at 9:39 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
> ... it's not actually that unusual. The idea that anyone who is not an academic staff member of a prestigious-enough (i.e. rich and, lets face it, male-dominated and white) University is not an acceptable audience for peer reviewed research and has nothing of use to say about the same is the usual exclusionary 'I'm keeping a firm hold on my privilege' story.
I'm sorry you've encountered that, but I hope that I'm right when I say that it IS that unusual. As evidence (in addition to the anecdata offered above): the least diverse scientific field -- physics -- is also the very same one that originated the arXiv, decades before "Open Access" was a thing.
posted by Westringia F. at 9:39 AM on August 20, 2013
I'm sorry you've encountered that, but I hope that I'm right when I say that it IS that unusual. As evidence (in addition to the anecdata offered above): the least diverse scientific field -- physics -- is also the very same one that originated the arXiv, decades before "Open Access" was a thing.
posted by Westringia F. at 9:39 AM on August 20, 2013
O.K., I'm beginning to suspect this will be quicker if every mefite who isn't a member of the Blasdel family steps forward.
I think I know where this is going.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think I know where this is going.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
But then shouldn't he be Blasdela?
BP (singing): I hate every Blasdel I see /
From Blasdel A to Blasdel B
posted by Horace Rumpole at 9:43 AM on August 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
BP (singing): I hate every Blasdel I see /
From Blasdel A to Blasdel B
posted by Horace Rumpole at 9:43 AM on August 20, 2013 [18 favorites]
And for anyone who WISHES s/he were Blasdelb's sibling, http://www.metafilter.com/contribute/xfnlinkbuilder.mefi?to_user=90947
posted by Westringia F. at 9:45 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Westringia F. at 9:45 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
In three decades of experience in academia across three countries (and as the child of an academic) I have never heard anyone express this view. I'm sorry you have shitty colleagues, but they are utter fringe weirdos in the academic world.
I tried to make it clear in my comment, this is not something I have dealt with recently so no, my colleagues are not horrible in any way at all.
But if you've really never dealt with an old fashioned academic maintaining their privilege, which has nothing to do with the current publishing model and everything to do with inbuilt sexism and classism etc, then you're either very lucky or those around you are just less obvious about it. Because the idea of academia being exclusionary is not unusual or "fringe".
And Blazecock Pileon himself said right up there: "People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread," etc. I don't see any other way of reading that except that only those in the kind of academic institutions that have good journal access can understand the articles enough to discuss them, which is exactly the kind of elitist attitude I'm talking about. Fortunately it is mostly dying out and people are getting smart enough to not voice their prejudices, but trying to pretend that the entire academic institution is open and willing to engage with outsiders etc is naive at best.
(but hey, I've only been working for nearly twenty years and in two countries so what would I know?)
posted by shelleycat at 9:47 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I tried to make it clear in my comment, this is not something I have dealt with recently so no, my colleagues are not horrible in any way at all.
But if you've really never dealt with an old fashioned academic maintaining their privilege, which has nothing to do with the current publishing model and everything to do with inbuilt sexism and classism etc, then you're either very lucky or those around you are just less obvious about it. Because the idea of academia being exclusionary is not unusual or "fringe".
And Blazecock Pileon himself said right up there: "People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread," etc. I don't see any other way of reading that except that only those in the kind of academic institutions that have good journal access can understand the articles enough to discuss them, which is exactly the kind of elitist attitude I'm talking about. Fortunately it is mostly dying out and people are getting smart enough to not voice their prejudices, but trying to pretend that the entire academic institution is open and willing to engage with outsiders etc is naive at best.
(but hey, I've only been working for nearly twenty years and in two countries so what would I know?)
posted by shelleycat at 9:47 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
And for anyone who WISHES s/he were Blasdelb's sibling, http://www.metafilter.com/contribute/xfnlinkbuilder.mefi?to_user=90947
Let The Great Ensiblinging begin!
posted by zombieflanders at 9:48 AM on August 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
Let The Great Ensiblinging begin!
posted by zombieflanders at 9:48 AM on August 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
"O.K., I'm beginning to suspect this will be quicker if every mefite who isn't a member of the Blasdel family steps forward."
There are only the three of us co-spawn, and insurmountable logistical limitations to making more, but give us 10 years and at least one of us will probably gestate additional mefites.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:49 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
There are only the three of us co-spawn, and insurmountable logistical limitations to making more, but give us 10 years and at least one of us will probably gestate additional mefites.
posted by Blasdelb at 9:49 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
Really tempted to register the sock puppet "Blasdelp" now.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:50 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 9:50 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
*hovers ink blotter over the bingo square marked "Metatalk spawns a sockpuppet" anxiously*
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:52 AM on August 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:52 AM on August 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
Gotta mind your blasdelps and blasdelqs.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 9:56 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 9:56 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Frankly, after that battle rap, we need a BlasdelZ, who's entire purpose is to take that rap and throw some wicked techno beats down on that.
posted by FritoKAL at 9:58 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by FritoKAL at 9:58 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I would watch the hell out of an academia themed 8 Mile ripoff starring Blasdelb.
If you had one shot....or one opportunity...to lay a righteous smackdown in MeTa....would you capture it or just let it slip?
Snap back to reality, Oh there goes Blasdel-B
Oh, there goes Blazecock, he choked
He's so mad, but he won't give up that
Easy, no
He won't have it, he knows his whole back's to these ropes
It don't matter, he's dope
He knows that it's
Back to the lab again, yo
This whole rhapsody
He better go tell of the gray and hope it don't pass him
You better lose yourself in the music, the moment
You own it, you better never let it go
You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to snark
This opportunity comes once in a lifetime yo
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:02 AM on August 20, 2013 [21 favorites]
If you had one shot....or one opportunity...to lay a righteous smackdown in MeTa....would you capture it or just let it slip?
Snap back to reality, Oh there goes Blasdel-B
Oh, there goes Blazecock, he choked
He's so mad, but he won't give up that
Easy, no
He won't have it, he knows his whole back's to these ropes
It don't matter, he's dope
He knows that it's
Back to the lab again, yo
This whole rhapsody
He better go tell of the gray and hope it don't pass him
You better lose yourself in the music, the moment
You own it, you better never let it go
You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to snark
This opportunity comes once in a lifetime yo
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:02 AM on August 20, 2013 [21 favorites]
"The people who need to have access to these kinds of things already have access, basically."
So here's a story about access to academic papers.
A few years ago I had the impulse to write something about bindweed/morning glory, and it was really hard to find good info about anything other than controlling it. So I Asked MetaFilter.
The second response is this fabulous overview article...that I couldn't access. :( Except that a lovely MLS student intern at my local library had access via his school and printed me a copy. For lots of reasons, I didn't ever write the thing, and I lost the paper.
Now I work at a college, and this summer I'm taking a writing class. I decided I was ready to try writing that essay thing on bindweed, and my first top was that AskMe. I'd actually sort of forgotten that my favorite article had been behind a paywall, and so when I was doing research on my tablet on campus, I just clicked through and read. Only later did I realize the difference.
::sigh::
And it's not like there's that much difference between the me (working for a credit union) who started this essay and the me (working for a college) who's finally writing it.
(I'm sort of tempted to make a MeTa post when I actually finish the essay. I think the initial version will be done in the next week or so, assuming I actually get feedback from my faculty. And I don't think I could've done it without that long-ago AskMe.)
posted by epersonae at 10:06 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
So here's a story about access to academic papers.
A few years ago I had the impulse to write something about bindweed/morning glory, and it was really hard to find good info about anything other than controlling it. So I Asked MetaFilter.
The second response is this fabulous overview article...that I couldn't access. :( Except that a lovely MLS student intern at my local library had access via his school and printed me a copy. For lots of reasons, I didn't ever write the thing, and I lost the paper.
Now I work at a college, and this summer I'm taking a writing class. I decided I was ready to try writing that essay thing on bindweed, and my first top was that AskMe. I'd actually sort of forgotten that my favorite article had been behind a paywall, and so when I was doing research on my tablet on campus, I just clicked through and read. Only later did I realize the difference.
::sigh::
And it's not like there's that much difference between the me (working for a credit union) who started this essay and the me (working for a college) who's finally writing it.
(I'm sort of tempted to make a MeTa post when I actually finish the essay. I think the initial version will be done in the next week or so, assuming I actually get feedback from my faculty. And I don't think I could've done it without that long-ago AskMe.)
posted by epersonae at 10:06 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
if you've really never dealt with an old fashioned academic maintaining their privilege, which has nothing to do with the current publishing model and everything to do with inbuilt sexism and classism etc,
Now you're changing the complaint to something rather different. Yeah, sure, I've seen all kinds of examples of academics "maintaining their privilege." I was responding to a far more specific complaint, viz:
posted by yoink at 10:08 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Now you're changing the complaint to something rather different. Yeah, sure, I've seen all kinds of examples of academics "maintaining their privilege." I was responding to a far more specific complaint, viz:
The idea that anyone who is not an academic staff member of a prestigious-enough (i.e. rich and, lets face it, male-dominated and white) University is not an acceptable audience for peer reviewed research and has nothing of use to say about the same is the usual exclusionary 'I'm keeping a firm hold on my privilege' story.I have never, ever heard an academic, of any stripe or from any discipline, say that they are generally in favor of excluding the hoi polloi from access to their work. In fact, most academics have a rather touchingly unrealistic idea about how much better a world it would be if everyone read their work and how large a potential audience of readers it would have if only people knew where to look.
posted by yoink at 10:08 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
"I have never, ever heard an academic, of any stripe or from any discipline, say that they are generally in favor of excluding the hoi polloi from access to their work."
FWIW, this is something I too have encountered from an old fart who got burned by an idiot journalist back in, like, the 70s.
posted by Blasdelb at 10:10 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
FWIW, this is something I too have encountered from an old fart who got burned by an idiot journalist back in, like, the 70s.
posted by Blasdelb at 10:10 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
So here's a story about access to academic papers.
You can't just raise my hopes for a "Fresh Prince" rap, then cruelly dash them upon the rocks of explanatory prose like that. Why you gotta play with my heart?
posted by zombieflanders at 10:12 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
You can't just raise my hopes for a "Fresh Prince" rap, then cruelly dash them upon the rocks of explanatory prose like that. Why you gotta play with my heart?
posted by zombieflanders at 10:12 AM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
"I have never, ever heard an academic, of any stripe or from any discipline, say that they are generally in favor of excluding the hoi polloi from access to their work."
I never said this and, in light of that, find accusations of bad faith funny coming from bullies who choose to twist my words in this manner. Thanks.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:16 AM on August 20, 2013
I never said this and, in light of that, find accusations of bad faith funny coming from bullies who choose to twist my words in this manner. Thanks.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:16 AM on August 20, 2013
Let's not lose focus on the fact that Blaseblas just delivered a Bridge Is Over level smackdown on the subject of academic papers yall.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:16 AM on August 20, 2013
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:16 AM on August 20, 2013
Cuz that's what's important here for those of us with a sense of humor.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:18 AM on August 20, 2013
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:18 AM on August 20, 2013
Blazecock Pileon: "I never said this and, in light of that, find accusations of bad faith funny coming from people who choose to twist my words in this manner. Thanks."
boo_radley: "I feel like I don't know why this behavior has made BP's life onerous. I don't know how to get there from here. Please help me understand that, BP."
Anything?
posted by boo_radley at 10:18 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
boo_radley: "I feel like I don't know why this behavior has made BP's life onerous. I don't know how to get there from here. Please help me understand that, BP."
Anything?
posted by boo_radley at 10:18 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
I never said this and, in light of that, find accusations of bad faith funny coming from people who choose to twist my words in this manner. Thanks.
Trying to think of what this whole thing is reminding me of...
Big explosion, leaving a huge mess all over the place. Refusals to take responsibility or clear things up afterward.
Maybe it's just a BP thing.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:20 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
Trying to think of what this whole thing is reminding me of...
Big explosion, leaving a huge mess all over the place. Refusals to take responsibility or clear things up afterward.
Maybe it's just a BP thing.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:20 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
Oh, so this is the thread everyone is hanging out in today. Hi, guys!!!
posted by entropicamericana at 10:22 AM on August 20, 2013
posted by entropicamericana at 10:22 AM on August 20, 2013
I never said this and, in light of that, find accusations of bad faith funny coming from bullies who choose to twist my words in this manner. Thanks.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 18:16 on August 20 [+] [!]
What part of the comment you quoted (which was a direct response from yoink to Shelleycat) twisted your words? And which words did it twist?
posted by jonnyploy at 10:25 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 18:16 on August 20 [+] [!]
What part of the comment you quoted (which was a direct response from yoink to Shelleycat) twisted your words? And which words did it twist?
posted by jonnyploy at 10:25 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I never said this and, in light of that, find accusations of bad faith funny coming from bullies who choose to twist my words in this manner. Thanks.
I was replying to Shelleycat. Which is why I quoted Shelleycat's comment. This is, perhaps, evidence that you are not reading this thread with sufficient attention, BP. If you go back and read it a little more closely I think you'll see that you were operating on a bad misunderstanding both of the legal framework within which Blasdelb is operating and of the forces that are contributing to the high costs of academic journal subscriptions. You owe Blasdelb an apology--one which I'm sure he would be happy to accept.
posted by yoink at 10:27 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
I was replying to Shelleycat. Which is why I quoted Shelleycat's comment. This is, perhaps, evidence that you are not reading this thread with sufficient attention, BP. If you go back and read it a little more closely I think you'll see that you were operating on a bad misunderstanding both of the legal framework within which Blasdelb is operating and of the forces that are contributing to the high costs of academic journal subscriptions. You owe Blasdelb an apology--one which I'm sure he would be happy to accept.
posted by yoink at 10:27 AM on August 20, 2013 [11 favorites]
> You owe Blasdelb an apology
Thanks, that gave me a laugh.
I repeat: why is this thread still open?
posted by languagehat at 10:30 AM on August 20, 2013
Thanks, that gave me a laugh.
I repeat: why is this thread still open?
posted by languagehat at 10:30 AM on August 20, 2013
languagehat: "I repeat"
man, I am finding out this is not a super strategy for getting answers.
posted by boo_radley at 10:31 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
man, I am finding out this is not a super strategy for getting answers.
posted by boo_radley at 10:31 AM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
I repeat: why is this thread still open?
We're waiting for the drop.
posted by yoink at 10:31 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
We're waiting for the drop.
posted by yoink at 10:31 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
Mostly because it's not closed. I don't know if there's a whole lot more of anything useful that's gonna come out of it but since we're not in screaming trainwreck territory exactly and some people are having sort of interesting chatter about experiences with academic writing and distribution and gatekeeping and etc, I'm fine just sort of sitting on it for the moment.
Would ideally be more of the substantive discussion and anecdotes etc, less of the other stuff situation as far as that goes, for sure.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:34 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Would ideally be more of the substantive discussion and anecdotes etc, less of the other stuff situation as far as that goes, for sure.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:34 AM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
"I never said this and, in light of that, find accusations of bad faith funny coming from bullies who choose to twist my words in this manner. Thanks."
Blazecock, you are in a room full of people who love you but can't help but find some shitty habits you have, like your bizarre extended grudge matches that never really end, refusal to participate in anything resembling a conversation when grudging, and hair trigger vitriol to be pretty shitty in the context of this community. The only person bullying you here is yourself. Not have a research librarian's understanding of the weird, counter-intuitive, and controversial forces that affect scientific literature is a totally OK and really normal thing, but those tags on this meta are pretty intense and pretty not OK.
posted by Blasdelb at 10:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
Blazecock, you are in a room full of people who love you but can't help but find some shitty habits you have, like your bizarre extended grudge matches that never really end, refusal to participate in anything resembling a conversation when grudging, and hair trigger vitriol to be pretty shitty in the context of this community. The only person bullying you here is yourself. Not have a research librarian's understanding of the weird, counter-intuitive, and controversial forces that affect scientific literature is a totally OK and really normal thing, but those tags on this meta are pretty intense and pretty not OK.
posted by Blasdelb at 10:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
We're waiting for the drop.
BWWAAAAAAAAW-WUB WUBWUBWUBWUB WEEEE WAAAAWW-WUB WUBWUBWUBWUB.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:42 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
BWWAAAAAAAAW-WUB WUBWUBWUBWUB WEEEE WAAAAWW-WUB WUBWUBWUBWUB.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:42 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
I wish there was a way for me to reasonably pay for journal articles as a non-academic. I'd happily pay a few bucks a month for blanket access to (say) IEEE's paywall. Sadly there isn't so I have to panhandle among friends in academentia to send me PDFs.
posted by Skorgu at 10:43 AM on August 20, 2013
posted by Skorgu at 10:43 AM on August 20, 2013
The tags seem to be
knock
it
off
Juvenile, perhaps, but not "intense." Am I missing something?
posted by grouse at 10:50 AM on August 20, 2013
knock
it
off
Juvenile, perhaps, but not "intense." Am I missing something?
posted by grouse at 10:50 AM on August 20, 2013
I wish there was a way for me to reasonably pay for journal articles as a non-academic.
If you live near a reasonably large university you may be pleasantly surprised at the kinds of arrangements available to you for using their library services. Some will offer free access to the network and some will offer it for not very high library subscription fees. And if you get rights to use their library network you might also have the right to use the campus VPN to access it off-site. All these things vary enormously by institution, of course, but it's definitely worth inquiring.
posted by yoink at 10:51 AM on August 20, 2013
If you live near a reasonably large university you may be pleasantly surprised at the kinds of arrangements available to you for using their library services. Some will offer free access to the network and some will offer it for not very high library subscription fees. And if you get rights to use their library network you might also have the right to use the campus VPN to access it off-site. All these things vary enormously by institution, of course, but it's definitely worth inquiring.
posted by yoink at 10:51 AM on August 20, 2013
we're not in screaming trainwreck territory exactly
A very traumatic episode of Thomas The Tank Engine, to be sure.
posted by hellojed at 10:53 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
A very traumatic episode of Thomas The Tank Engine, to be sure.
posted by hellojed at 10:53 AM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
Oh, and a P.S. you can register as an individual with JSTOR for free access to articles in their database (you only get access to a limited number at any given time, though). If you're an alumnus/a of certain institutions you can get unlimited access (dig around on their site for more info on that program), they are also licensed at many public libraries. The alumna/us card is also one worth exploring more generally--some campuses are keen on promoting ongoing identification with the alma mater among their graduates by granting them continuing access to university libraries.
posted by yoink at 10:56 AM on August 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by yoink at 10:56 AM on August 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
"A very traumatic episode of Thomas The Tank Engine, to be sure."
Not as bad as this one!
posted by Blasdelb at 10:58 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not as bad as this one!
posted by Blasdelb at 10:58 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not have a research librarian's understanding of the weird, counter-intuitive, and controversial forces that affect scientific literature is a totally OK
I'm going to ignore your constant condescending bullying for a second and point out a couple of what are in all likelihood facts: 1) you don't have contracts with publishing houses to redistribute other people's work electronically, 2) you are not the author of any (if at least very nearly all) of the papers you've been sending out. Unless either of those things are true, you almost certainly don't have permission to get around firewalls on other people's behalf, even if your intentions are noble. Metafilter is not Pirate Bay, and I don't think it needs to turn into one with your help. You probably know that what you're doing is iffy because you keep using the same disclaimer when you offer out other people's papers to random parties, when you and I both know that Metafilter is not a scientific forum, nor is it a forum where people regularly have academic discussions.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:00 AM on August 20, 2013
I'm going to ignore your constant condescending bullying for a second and point out a couple of what are in all likelihood facts: 1) you don't have contracts with publishing houses to redistribute other people's work electronically, 2) you are not the author of any (if at least very nearly all) of the papers you've been sending out. Unless either of those things are true, you almost certainly don't have permission to get around firewalls on other people's behalf, even if your intentions are noble. Metafilter is not Pirate Bay, and I don't think it needs to turn into one with your help. You probably know that what you're doing is iffy because you keep using the same disclaimer when you offer out other people's papers to random parties, when you and I both know that Metafilter is not a scientific forum, nor is it a forum where people regularly have academic discussions.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:00 AM on August 20, 2013
blasdelb, thanks again for those two physiology articles that I couldn't justify paying for but which were very helpful in expanding my knowledge of marine microbial (bacterial?) ecology. I did as you asked, and didn't distribute them any further.
posted by sneebler at 11:00 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by sneebler at 11:00 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
accusations of bad faith funny coming from bullies
constant condescending bullying
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:03 AM on August 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
constant condescending bullying
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:03 AM on August 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
1) you don't have contracts with publishing houses to redistribute other people's work electronically
You don't need a contract with a publishing house to legally and ethically distribute electronic academic research.
This is what you are missing, and you haven't offered any arguments to support your assertion.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:04 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
You don't need a contract with a publishing house to legally and ethically distribute electronic academic research.
This is what you are missing, and you haven't offered any arguments to support your assertion.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:04 AM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
Metafilter is not Pirate Bay, and I don't think it needs to turn into one with your help.
BP, Blasdelb couldn't turn Metafilter into Pirate Bay even if he tried. This is in every practical sense a non-concern. It's fine if it is a personal concern for you, but you've more than made that clear already and the actual staff of this site doesn't share it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:05 AM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
BP, Blasdelb couldn't turn Metafilter into Pirate Bay even if he tried. This is in every practical sense a non-concern. It's fine if it is a personal concern for you, but you've more than made that clear already and the actual staff of this site doesn't share it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:05 AM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
Bunny Ultramod: I have tried to start up a few breakdance fights in previous threads, without much luck, which makes me feel my tutelage under Minneapolis breakdancer Nature Boy, seen in the "The Bird" sequence in Purple Rain, may have been wasted.
"Oak Tree" or GTFO, Bunny.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:05 AM on August 20, 2013
"Oak Tree" or GTFO, Bunny.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:05 AM on August 20, 2013
How in the world can a BS callout turn into a rap battle as well as providing much-needed (in my case) information on JSTOR access for alumni of many universities? Why, MeTa, of course. I love this place, and I'm so glad I came back after my several year hiatus.
As to BP - come on. You've been pretty thoroughly debunked on whatever legitimate issues you've raised. It's time to admit you're probably wrong, drop the keyboard, and back away slowly from your computer. We'll all still be here later when you want to play.
posted by jennaratrix at 11:06 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
As to BP - come on. You've been pretty thoroughly debunked on whatever legitimate issues you've raised. It's time to admit you're probably wrong, drop the keyboard, and back away slowly from your computer. We'll all still be here later when you want to play.
posted by jennaratrix at 11:06 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Blazecock Pileon: "I'm going to ignore your constant condescending bullying for a second and point out a couple of what are in all likelihood facts"
Oh for fucks sake, you're the guy who put this lovely bit of bullshit in his call out to begin with:
"People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread, and more than likely we do not need proxy access through your library, as impressed as we all are by your library card."
Get over yourself dude.
posted by iamabot at 11:06 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
Oh for fucks sake, you're the guy who put this lovely bit of bullshit in his call out to begin with:
"People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread, and more than likely we do not need proxy access through your library, as impressed as we all are by your library card."
Get over yourself dude.
posted by iamabot at 11:06 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
As an FYI, I think Project Muse is also a potential for alumni access, along with some language programs. And if those are things that you're interested in, mention it to your development staff and/or the library (along with a donation, it never hurts). If your university does offer it, make sure to mention how awesome it is and to use it!
posted by jetlagaddict at 11:13 AM on August 20, 2013
posted by jetlagaddict at 11:13 AM on August 20, 2013
WTF, BP? You have been repeatedly told by librarians that sharing single articles does not violate the terms of the contractual agreements libraries have with journal publishers and distributors. I feel certain that if blasdelb was posting the articles on a website where people could retrieve them, those same librarians wouldn't hesitate to say that it was illegal and unacceptable. This is not an argument about how information wants to be free and fuck those journal publishers. Journal publishers explicitly allow the kind of sharing that is being discussed. What more is there to say?
posted by Wordwoman at 11:14 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Wordwoman at 11:14 AM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Christ, BP, read the damned thread. You are embarrassing yourself.
posted by yoink at 11:20 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by yoink at 11:20 AM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
Blazecock Pileon: "I never said this and, in light of that, find accusations of bad faith funny coming from bullies who choose to twist my words in this manner. Thanks."
I apologize in advance for making this personal, but I feel it should be said. If the mods feel this comment or the sentiments being expressed are inappropriate, please feel free to delete it.
BP, back in 2007 and 2008 I thought you were one of the better posters and commenters here. You'd gone through a reformation of sorts. You had apologized for past missteps and were avoiding meaningless pissing matches over inane bullshit with humor and flair. You were pretty deft at defusing arguments. You were one of those wise, sassy mefi elders that made this place a joy to be around. You made cool posts, and helped drive intelligent, in-depth discussions. Etc.
I've been a member as long as you. I'm a $5 n00b. But I didn't start participating with gusto until 2008. And when I did I had a short unofficial mental list of people I looked up to on this site and you were on it. A list of mefites whose posts and comments I respected and whose opinions I valued. Your posts were interesting finds that sparked discussion and debate, and you didn't seem to take yourself so damned seriously any more, or get defensive when people were difficult toward you. And you've always been one of the few posters here whose single link posts are consistently good. For heaven's sake, I remember how cool it felt when you made a tiny comment praising one of my early posts. As ridiculous as it sounds, it was like I had arrived. Like getting a favorite from mathowie or something.
I don't know where along the line things went sour for you. Whether you've become disillusioned with the moderation, or the community or what. But sincerely, BP, you're not being bullied. You're not. And you're not a victim here. No way. You started this callout and many people have chimed in to say they disagree with you. And for the most part I think they've done so with at least a modicum of respect. It literally took dozens of comments before someone made anything we would characterize as a personal attack. Very few of us would ever receive a similar reaction from the community.
posted by zarq at 11:21 AM on August 20, 2013 [49 favorites]
I apologize in advance for making this personal, but I feel it should be said. If the mods feel this comment or the sentiments being expressed are inappropriate, please feel free to delete it.
BP, back in 2007 and 2008 I thought you were one of the better posters and commenters here. You'd gone through a reformation of sorts. You had apologized for past missteps and were avoiding meaningless pissing matches over inane bullshit with humor and flair. You were pretty deft at defusing arguments. You were one of those wise, sassy mefi elders that made this place a joy to be around. You made cool posts, and helped drive intelligent, in-depth discussions. Etc.
I've been a member as long as you. I'm a $5 n00b. But I didn't start participating with gusto until 2008. And when I did I had a short unofficial mental list of people I looked up to on this site and you were on it. A list of mefites whose posts and comments I respected and whose opinions I valued. Your posts were interesting finds that sparked discussion and debate, and you didn't seem to take yourself so damned seriously any more, or get defensive when people were difficult toward you. And you've always been one of the few posters here whose single link posts are consistently good. For heaven's sake, I remember how cool it felt when you made a tiny comment praising one of my early posts. As ridiculous as it sounds, it was like I had arrived. Like getting a favorite from mathowie or something.
I don't know where along the line things went sour for you. Whether you've become disillusioned with the moderation, or the community or what. But sincerely, BP, you're not being bullied. You're not. And you're not a victim here. No way. You started this callout and many people have chimed in to say they disagree with you. And for the most part I think they've done so with at least a modicum of respect. It literally took dozens of comments before someone made anything we would characterize as a personal attack. Very few of us would ever receive a similar reaction from the community.
posted by zarq at 11:21 AM on August 20, 2013 [49 favorites]
I hope this is not too far away from the point now, but if you would benefit from reading academic articles, you might also find them through some large public libraries. The Cleveland Public Library, the NYPL, and Austin Public Library are three that offer JSTOR and other academic databases. For Cleveland and New York, you have to be a resident of the state and apply for a card at one of the branches. I don't know if that's true of Austin. Here is a list of the databases available from Cleveland; here are the databases available from the NYPL; and here's the Austin database page. This list can tell you whether a public institution in your area offers access to JSTOR.
posted by Francolin at 11:23 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Francolin at 11:23 AM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
"1) you don't have contracts with publishing houses to redistribute other people's work electronically,"...But I am included in an awful lot of contracts between more than one institution and an awful lot of publishers as part of a number representing a list of people being given institutional access negotiated on our behalf by the institution. Most, though not all, of those contract explicitly allow limited distribution by those with access, like myself, to others in specific ways.
"2) you are not the author of any (if at least very nearly all) of the papers you've been sending out."This is, depending on the discipline, often not actually the case. Many publishers these days put explicit contractual limitations on how much authors can distribute their own work that are often quite shitty. This also often does not stop anyone because suing authors is a very quick way to die as a journal for pretty much zero benefit.
"You probably know that what you're doing is iffy because you keep using the same disclaimer when you offer out other people's papers to random parties."I include that disclaimer because there is a very big material difference between my sharing a PDF as part of a mutual academic discussion on the topic, and someone posting it to Scribd. It is there both because I genuinely have no interest in participating in the disruption of the journal business model in that way and also because every PDF I share has a bar code within it that would identify both library and user to any lawyer who would know how to look and who could be interested in making me have an awkward and uncomfortable conversation with my dean about how my access led to something being posted to Scribd.
"you and I both know that Metafilter is not a scientific forum, nor is it a forum where people regularly have academic discussions."Metafilter does have its moments, science has even been performed here! (Its all at the bottom of the thread, so long as this thread is all about me)
posted by Blasdelb at 11:30 AM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
Metafilter does have its moments, science has even been performed here! (Its all at the bottom of the thread, so long as this thread is all about me)
Are there any scientific papers that wouldn't be greatly enhanced by a footnote that reads "Which is why I am really glad that, after some consideration, the procedure was modified to include pants"? Well, apart from those requiring a lack of pants, of course.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:34 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Are there any scientific papers that wouldn't be greatly enhanced by a footnote that reads "Which is why I am really glad that, after some consideration, the procedure was modified to include pants"? Well, apart from those requiring a lack of pants, of course.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:34 AM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
"Are there any scientific papers that wouldn't be greatly enhanced by a footnote that reads "Which is why I am really glad that, after some consideration, the procedure was modified to include pants"? Well, apart from those requiring a lack of pants, of course."
This one!
posted by Blasdelb at 11:43 AM on August 20, 2013
This one!
posted by Blasdelb at 11:43 AM on August 20, 2013
Can we just start dropping jokes about academic publishing in here now?
Here, I'll go first.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:59 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Here, I'll go first.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:59 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I know more than you do, call me Dr. Science!
I have a LIBRARY CARD!
posted by Naberius at 12:17 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have a LIBRARY CARD!
posted by Naberius at 12:17 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Naberius: "I know more than you do, call me Dr. Science!
I have a LIBRARY CARD!"
He has a Master's degree... in library science.
posted by boo_radley at 12:19 PM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
I have a LIBRARY CARD!"
He has a Master's degree... in library science.
posted by boo_radley at 12:19 PM on August 20, 2013 [13 favorites]
A library card is basically a license for bullying.
sssshhhh don't let them know that it's true
we have rumbles...in the stacks
we are the QL638.9s versus the QB466.J46 A78s
and we are mean
posted by jetlagaddict at 12:23 PM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
sssshhhh don't let them know that it's true
we have rumbles...in the stacks
we are the QL638.9s versus the QB466.J46 A78s
and we are mean
posted by jetlagaddict at 12:23 PM on August 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
The blasdelb battle rap should be voiced by Phinneas J. Whoopie.
posted by bukvich at 12:24 PM on August 20, 2013
posted by bukvich at 12:24 PM on August 20, 2013
Having a library card apparently means you know more about libraries than we could ever possibly imagine.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:26 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:26 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
This has all been quite incoherent and thoroughly depressing, and it is ... (checks clock) ... approximately six hours until I can drink.
Sigh.
posted by aramaic at 12:26 PM on August 20, 2013
Sigh.
posted by aramaic at 12:26 PM on August 20, 2013
It's 9 o'clock somewhere, man.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 12:27 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Elementary Penguin at 12:27 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
nor is it a forum where people regularly have academic discussions.
Come on, that exists here, along with everything else.
Look, I of all people know it is really easy to get wrapped around the axle here, but if you would calmly sit down, breathe, and consider that the world will NOT end if you admit you are probably not on the right side of this argument, I think it would be for the best.
None of us are right all the time.
I personally think the mixtape exchanges are problematic copyright wise, but, at the end of the day, I am personally satisfied to simply not participate and leave it at that. That might be a choice for you on this?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:35 PM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
Come on, that exists here, along with everything else.
Look, I of all people know it is really easy to get wrapped around the axle here, but if you would calmly sit down, breathe, and consider that the world will NOT end if you admit you are probably not on the right side of this argument, I think it would be for the best.
None of us are right all the time.
I personally think the mixtape exchanges are problematic copyright wise, but, at the end of the day, I am personally satisfied to simply not participate and leave it at that. That might be a choice for you on this?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 12:35 PM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
Just chiming in to add another tick to the "I am a working scientist and do not have good journal access and am not actively stupid" tally.
But based on sciencey Mefi threads, maybe I AM just rallying around a cool kid, because as far as I'm concerned, Blasdelb's pretty damn awesome.
posted by maryr at 12:38 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
But based on sciencey Mefi threads, maybe I AM just rallying around a cool kid, because as far as I'm concerned, Blasdelb's pretty damn awesome.
posted by maryr at 12:38 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Behemoth: Speaking of science, is there a corollary to the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory that explains why an Interwebs poster, after finding himself in the tiniest of pits, whether of his own creation or not, is compelled to keep digging?
OP: "Help! HELP! I'm stuck in a well!!!"
Goons1-4: "Climb! Climb up and take our hands!"
OP: "I'm thinking I should dig... should I dig?"
Goon5: "NO! I was trapped in a well, and digging is a bad idea! Climb out!"
Goons6-8: "Were lowering ropes! Take hold of a rope!"
Goon9: "I've even tied a harness to the end of this one!"
OP: "I can feel the ropes, but I don't want to hold onto them... should I dig?"
And so forth.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:40 PM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
OP: "Help! HELP! I'm stuck in a well!!!"
Goons1-4: "Climb! Climb up and take our hands!"
OP: "I'm thinking I should dig... should I dig?"
Goon5: "NO! I was trapped in a well, and digging is a bad idea! Climb out!"
Goons6-8: "Were lowering ropes! Take hold of a rope!"
Goon9: "I've even tied a harness to the end of this one!"
OP: "I can feel the ropes, but I don't want to hold onto them... should I dig?"
And so forth.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:40 PM on August 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
I have a library card. I miss the library cards and access I had to University databases I had when I lived in a city with multiple University level institutions. My current library card pales in comparison. It sucks on the odd occasion I actually want to read an actual researched paper that's unaccessible. I do get envious of people with better library cards and huge academic libraries in general. They are very lucky. I appreciate those with better library cards offering to send the odd paper to us poor library card deficient people.
Just because I'm now out of academia and find myself living in a rural area with access to large academic bodies of knowledge hours away doesn't mean I've forgotten how to read and understand the words harbored in their vast data enclaves. My current library card does not reflect my academic capacity. This is nothing but library card classism at work.
If the legalities of databases allow those in the upper library card class to break these class barriers to help individuals like me who find themselves mired in the lower library card classes to have some access to these enclaves then I encourage them to do so. If I ever manage to pull myself up by my flip flop straps and again reach the higher library card classes again I will do the same. It's the right thing to do.
posted by Jalliah at 12:40 PM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
Just because I'm now out of academia and find myself living in a rural area with access to large academic bodies of knowledge hours away doesn't mean I've forgotten how to read and understand the words harbored in their vast data enclaves. My current library card does not reflect my academic capacity. This is nothing but library card classism at work.
If the legalities of databases allow those in the upper library card class to break these class barriers to help individuals like me who find themselves mired in the lower library card classes to have some access to these enclaves then I encourage them to do so. If I ever manage to pull myself up by my flip flop straps and again reach the higher library card classes again I will do the same. It's the right thing to do.
posted by Jalliah at 12:40 PM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
> You can't just raise my hopes for a "Fresh Prince" rap, then cruelly dash them upon the rocks of explanatory prose like that. Why you gotta play with my heart?
It might take me a bit, but I'll try to come back with something that doesn't toy so cruelly with your affections. :)
posted by epersonae at 12:43 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
It might take me a bit, but I'll try to come back with something that doesn't toy so cruelly with your affections. :)
posted by epersonae at 12:43 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yet another ex-academic here who no longer has access to university libraries. I too want to publicly thank blasdelb for his offer (which I have taken him up on), and all the other scientists who have offered to do the same.
posted by phliar at 12:44 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by phliar at 12:44 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
A library card is basically a license for bullying.
sssshhhh don't let them know that it's true
we have rumbles...in the stacks
The first rule of Library Fight Club is that if you talk about Library Fight Club, you should do it in a respectful whisper.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:51 PM on August 20, 2013 [34 favorites]
sssshhhh don't let them know that it's true
we have rumbles...in the stacks
The first rule of Library Fight Club is that if you talk about Library Fight Club, you should do it in a respectful whisper.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:51 PM on August 20, 2013 [34 favorites]
Christ, BP, read the damned thread. You are embarrassing yourself.
Yeah, this is what's making the accusation of "bullying" (?) really puzzling. BP is basically repeating the same accusations at Blasdelb in some pretty hyperbolic and acerbic language, without bothering to engage with any of the points that contradict his complaint. It is, in other words, just a platform for him to heap abuse on Blasdelb. I'm glad for the comedy relief others have provided, and for some interesting information about accessing academic papers, that's for sure. Because it's the only redeemable feature of this mean-spirited and apparently inaccurate call-out.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:51 PM on August 20, 2013
Yeah, this is what's making the accusation of "bullying" (?) really puzzling. BP is basically repeating the same accusations at Blasdelb in some pretty hyperbolic and acerbic language, without bothering to engage with any of the points that contradict his complaint. It is, in other words, just a platform for him to heap abuse on Blasdelb. I'm glad for the comedy relief others have provided, and for some interesting information about accessing academic papers, that's for sure. Because it's the only redeemable feature of this mean-spirited and apparently inaccurate call-out.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:51 PM on August 20, 2013
I'm a working scientist and do have good journal access, but even for me there are still cracks. The fact is, that among working scientists there is constant trading of articles a la Blasdelb to smooth over gaps in access, and it only helps everyone's life. I don't know what exactly BP's backstory with this issue is, but from my perspective it is kind of the opposite of the truth to say that this kind of offer is "making life more difficult for the rest of us who actually do this for a living."
you and I both know that Metafilter is not a scientific forum, nor is it a forum where people regularly have academic discussions.
It is true that this is not an academic/scientific forum, but it is also true (and I believe always has been, as long as I've been a member at least) that there are a startling number of academics and scientists at all phases of their career on this site, not to mention people who are sufficiently educated to understand the flow of a scientific article and even the content. AskMeFi especially is something that can only be improved by the participation of actual scientists/science, and academic discussions, and it is already fairly challenging for scientists to participate in many cases. So as a working scientist (and one whose mefi membership has spanned almost all of my academic career), I find this statement and the apparent beliefs underlying it to be counterproductive, and elitist in a somewhat ugly way.
posted by advil at 12:55 PM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
you and I both know that Metafilter is not a scientific forum, nor is it a forum where people regularly have academic discussions.
It is true that this is not an academic/scientific forum, but it is also true (and I believe always has been, as long as I've been a member at least) that there are a startling number of academics and scientists at all phases of their career on this site, not to mention people who are sufficiently educated to understand the flow of a scientific article and even the content. AskMeFi especially is something that can only be improved by the participation of actual scientists/science, and academic discussions, and it is already fairly challenging for scientists to participate in many cases. So as a working scientist (and one whose mefi membership has spanned almost all of my academic career), I find this statement and the apparent beliefs underlying it to be counterproductive, and elitist in a somewhat ugly way.
posted by advil at 12:55 PM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
HEY NERD WHAT'S UP YOU LIKE CARD CATALOGS HUH GONNA GET SOME BOOKS OUT
*slaps the card catalog outta yer hand*
I SEE YOU IN NONFICTION AGAIN, IT'S YOUR ASS
*uses a date stamper to put the wrong return date all over yer forehead*
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:59 PM on August 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
*slaps the card catalog outta yer hand*
I SEE YOU IN NONFICTION AGAIN, IT'S YOUR ASS
*uses a date stamper to put the wrong return date all over yer forehead*
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:59 PM on August 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
From someone on the less academic and more industrial side of the science and engineering world, I publish technical papers quite often in various venues. Usually the publication retains the rights to publish the material, but that doesn't mean I can't send a copy to anyone who wants it. And, as Westringia F. put it so well, it only helps me if my work is distributed far and wide. I see no downside here.
posted by blurker at 1:08 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by blurker at 1:08 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
*slaps the card catalog outta yer hand*
Why did you throw my smartphone?
posted by maryr at 1:08 PM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
Why did you throw my smartphone?
posted by maryr at 1:08 PM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
You can't just raise my hopes for a "Fresh Prince" rap, then cruelly dash them upon the rocks of explanatory prose like that. Why you gotta play with my heart?
Now, this is a story all about how
Academic access gets nefariously passed down
And I'd like to take a minute
Don't get yourself off-kilter
I'll tell you how Blasdelb became the Pirate King of a site called Metafilter
In west Cascadia born and raised
In the library was where Blasdelb spent most of their days
Tying copyrighted works to traintracks, thinking it was cool
And twirling a wicked mustache all around the school
When a couple of guys trying for intellectual conversation
Started asking around! Saying they wanted citations!
Blasdelb passed one PDF and Blazecock squawked
And said 'I'm passing this to Jessamyn and Cortex in MetaTalk'
posted by corb at 1:25 PM on August 20, 2013 [82 favorites]
Now, this is a story all about how
Academic access gets nefariously passed down
And I'd like to take a minute
Don't get yourself off-kilter
I'll tell you how Blasdelb became the Pirate King of a site called Metafilter
In west Cascadia born and raised
In the library was where Blasdelb spent most of their days
Tying copyrighted works to traintracks, thinking it was cool
And twirling a wicked mustache all around the school
When a couple of guys trying for intellectual conversation
Started asking around! Saying they wanted citations!
Blasdelb passed one PDF and Blazecock squawked
And said 'I'm passing this to Jessamyn and Cortex in MetaTalk'
posted by corb at 1:25 PM on August 20, 2013 [82 favorites]
you and I both know that Metafilter is not a scientific forum, nor is it a forum where people regularly have academic discussions.
I for one would like to know what the bar for such site is? Metafilter is large, it contains multitudes.
Because it is feeling like, if you don't know this, stay out and don't talk about it with other people.
Someone might learn something. Or interpenetrate your article in a bad way (which seems like the worse case here).
Which would open you up to being able to easily discredit them via the articles.
I can read a post. And read the comments on it. And then, read the "super secret" papers behind the post. And form an option about the post.
And, if I am wrong, I love to be proved wrong with SCIENCE.
This feels like I should be cut off from any SCIENCE discussion because I capitalized the word, when I just wanted to read more about the source.
I'll go back to gluing mice to cardboard now, since that was a great thread.
posted by jeribus at 1:27 PM on August 20, 2013
zombieflanders: You can't just raise my hopes for a "Fresh Prince" rap, then cruelly dash them upon the rocks of explanatory prose like that. Why you gotta play with my heart?
epersonae: It might take me a bit, but I'll try to come back with something that doesn't toy so cruelly with your affections. :)
Until then, here's my re-writing of your original comment, with some artistic flourishes:
Now, this is a story all about how
My life got flipped-turned upside down
And I'd like to take a minute
Just sit right there
I'll tell you how access to academic papers just isn’t fair
A few years ago I had the impulse to write
Something about bindweed, it’d be pretty tight
Checkin’ on Ask Me, relaxin’ all cool,
But I didn’t have research access through my old school
Then a student intern who was up to some good
Printed me a copy of the paper in question, an’ soon I understood
But for lots of reasons my paper got scarce
And instead I did research on the grooming habits of bears
I now work at a college and I’m in this writing class
An’ I thought “yo, bindweed and morning glory really got some sass”
If anytime was right to write this paper,
It was right now, ‘cause I’m feeling so damn dapper.
I pulled out my tablet and went back to my question
I got on campus internet, and class was in session.
I read that paper on the ‘weed and it was dope,
My paper was finished, and it was fresh like soap
I looked at my paper
It was finally done
Without academic access, it wouldn’t have been any fun.
Kudos to corb for being quicker on the draw
posted by filthy light thief at 1:29 PM on August 20, 2013 [31 favorites]
epersonae: It might take me a bit, but I'll try to come back with something that doesn't toy so cruelly with your affections. :)
Until then, here's my re-writing of your original comment, with some artistic flourishes:
Now, this is a story all about how
My life got flipped-turned upside down
And I'd like to take a minute
Just sit right there
I'll tell you how access to academic papers just isn’t fair
A few years ago I had the impulse to write
Something about bindweed, it’d be pretty tight
Checkin’ on Ask Me, relaxin’ all cool,
But I didn’t have research access through my old school
Then a student intern who was up to some good
Printed me a copy of the paper in question, an’ soon I understood
But for lots of reasons my paper got scarce
And instead I did research on the grooming habits of bears
I now work at a college and I’m in this writing class
An’ I thought “yo, bindweed and morning glory really got some sass”
If anytime was right to write this paper,
It was right now, ‘cause I’m feeling so damn dapper.
I pulled out my tablet and went back to my question
I got on campus internet, and class was in session.
I read that paper on the ‘weed and it was dope,
My paper was finished, and it was fresh like soap
I looked at my paper
It was finally done
Without academic access, it wouldn’t have been any fun.
Kudos to corb for being quicker on the draw
posted by filthy light thief at 1:29 PM on August 20, 2013 [31 favorites]
I have been sitting in the Philly airport for 5 straight hours, and this post has just saved my day. (Still 7 hours from home, but now with entertainment)
posted by Devils Rancher at 1:36 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Devils Rancher at 1:36 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
jeribus: " I'll go back to gluing mice to cardboard now..."
Um... what? Why?
posted by zarq at 1:37 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Um... what? Why?
posted by zarq at 1:37 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
I have been sitting in the Philly airport for 5 straight hours
BLASDELB!!!! (shakes fist). Is there no end to his perfidy?
posted by yoink at 1:38 PM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
BLASDELB!!!! (shakes fist). Is there no end to his perfidy?
posted by yoink at 1:38 PM on August 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
Blazecock Pileon: "I'm going to ignore your constant condescending bullying for a second and point out a couple of what are in all likelihood facts: 1) you don't have contracts with publishing houses to redistribute other people's work electronically, 2) you are not the author of any (if at least very nearly all) of the papers you've been sending out. Unless either of those things are true, you almost certainly don't have permission to get around firewalls on other people's behalf, even if your intentions are noble."
I'm going to ignore your constant condescending bullying attitude in this thread for a second and point out that 1) the likelihood of your assertions being relevant facts in this situation has been politely refuted, which you have ignored in order to continue your one-note blazecock pileon and 2) Firewalls WTF? Are you trying to shift to network security alarm bells rather than a licensing/subscription model loophole now?
Good grief, why don't you just try talking with people instead of at them.
posted by desuetude at 1:38 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm going to ignore your constant condescending bullying attitude in this thread for a second and point out that 1) the likelihood of your assertions being relevant facts in this situation has been politely refuted, which you have ignored in order to continue your one-note blazecock pileon and 2) Firewalls WTF? Are you trying to shift to network security alarm bells rather than a licensing/subscription model loophole now?
Good grief, why don't you just try talking with people instead of at them.
posted by desuetude at 1:38 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Sorry, zarq, but since this isn't a scientific forum, we can't talk about that because pirates.
posted by rtha at 1:39 PM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by rtha at 1:39 PM on August 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
(M)EGOTs for all the people spitting hot fire.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:41 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 1:41 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Does anyone have access to a research paper that looks into the state of access to research papers? I could use some more data to better participate in this convo. If so please me-mail me.
I promise not to redistribute or post in on piratebay.
posted by Jalliah at 1:44 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
I promise not to redistribute or post in on piratebay.
posted by Jalliah at 1:44 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Sorry, zarq, but since this isn't a scientific forum, we can't talk about that because pirates.
Keep twisting those words into something I never said! Twisting one's words never gets old and you help make Metafilter look like that much more of a wonderful, honest place! Thank you.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:46 PM on August 20, 2013
Keep twisting those words into something I never said! Twisting one's words never gets old and you help make Metafilter look like that much more of a wonderful, honest place! Thank you.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:46 PM on August 20, 2013
Keep twisting those words into something I never said! Twisting one's words never gets old and you help make Metafilter look like that much more of a wonderful, honest place!
You have, with this thread, accused a long time member (and by extension, other members like myself who have made the same offer) of illegal behavior, despite the fact that you have no evidence, advice, or legal standing to say so-- and you're accusing someone who made a joke of making a mockery of honesty?
posted by jetlagaddict at 1:50 PM on August 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
You have, with this thread, accused a long time member (and by extension, other members like myself who have made the same offer) of illegal behavior, despite the fact that you have no evidence, advice, or legal standing to say so-- and you're accusing someone who made a joke of making a mockery of honesty?
posted by jetlagaddict at 1:50 PM on August 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
and despite that said member has repeatedly said "No, the licenses for the things I'm sharing allow what I'm doing." which pretty much undermines BP's entire argument.
posted by FritoKAL at 1:52 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by FritoKAL at 1:52 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Blazecock, I'm not sure how I could say this any more gracefully, but that was not a sincere commentary on the literal nature of your words. That was clearly a joke riffing off of the absurd non-sequitur of your complaints and vitriol here.
posted by Blasdelb at 1:52 PM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Blasdelb at 1:52 PM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Blazecock Pileon: Keep twisting those words into something I never said!
Welcome back to the thread! I think there are some things people wanted you to answer, if you had a moment.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:56 PM on August 20, 2013 [28 favorites]
Welcome back to the thread! I think there are some things people wanted you to answer, if you had a moment.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:56 PM on August 20, 2013 [28 favorites]
Um... what? Why?
jeribus is auditioning to be Dogwelder's sidekick.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:56 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
jeribus is auditioning to be Dogwelder's sidekick.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:56 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
cortex: "jeribus is auditioning to be Dogwelder's sidekick."
Bueno.
posted by boo_radley at 1:56 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Bueno.
posted by boo_radley at 1:56 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
If there are any articles that Blasdelb doesn't have access to, ask me. I might.
posted by gaspode at 2:07 PM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by gaspode at 2:07 PM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
corb, flt: Y'ALL ARE AWESOME. Not even gonna try picking up the mic. No disrespect to corb, but I might actually have to use filthy light thief's comment as an appendix to my essay.
posted by epersonae at 2:17 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by epersonae at 2:17 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
"Professor, what's another word for pirate's treasure?"
"Well I'd say it's booty- booty-" *wikka wikka* "booty- booty-"
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:18 PM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
"Well I'd say it's booty- booty-" *wikka wikka* "booty- booty-"
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:18 PM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
I gotta say, reading this thread to a Boingo mix is a whole hell of a lot of fun, especially when Weird Science comes around.
posted by tilde at 2:21 PM on August 20, 2013
posted by tilde at 2:21 PM on August 20, 2013
rtha: "Sorry, zarq, but since this isn't a scientific forum, we can't talk about that because pirates."
Blazecock Pileon: " Keep twisting those words into something I never said! Twisting one's words never gets old and you help make Metafilter look like that much more of a wonderful, honest place! Thank you."
Blazecock Pileon: "People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread, and more than likely we do not need proxy access through your library, as impressed as we all are by your library card. "
The logical conclusion to your last quote is that people who are not in academia don't really need access to scientific/academic papers because they cannot understand them enough to be able to add intelligently to a thread's conversation. This is one of the reasons you give why the papers shouldn't be "pirated."
She's not twisting what you've said. She's making a logical extrapolation.
posted by zarq at 2:22 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Blazecock Pileon: " Keep twisting those words into something I never said! Twisting one's words never gets old and you help make Metafilter look like that much more of a wonderful, honest place! Thank you."
Blazecock Pileon: "People in academia can already access the articles in question, who can understand those articles enough to add to the thread, and more than likely we do not need proxy access through your library, as impressed as we all are by your library card. "
The logical conclusion to your last quote is that people who are not in academia don't really need access to scientific/academic papers because they cannot understand them enough to be able to add intelligently to a thread's conversation. This is one of the reasons you give why the papers shouldn't be "pirated."
She's not twisting what you've said. She's making a logical extrapolation.
posted by zarq at 2:22 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
The only winning move when it comes to arguing with BP is not to play.
posted by Falconetti at 2:27 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Falconetti at 2:27 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
"Keep twisting those words into something I never said! Twisting one's words never gets old and you help make Metafilter look like that much more of a wonderful, honest place! Thank you."
Dude, isn't weed legal there? Go get some dank, write some music and fuck your boyfriend (husband?). I guarantee that experience to be at least ONE MILLION TIMES better than getting so het up that you don't recognize friendly riffing from attacks. Whenever you're tempted to stress about this thread, ask yourself, "Is there more weed I could be smoking? Is there more music I could be making or even just listening to? Have I gotten so laid that I couldn't go another round?"
Please, dude. Or at the very least, save your outrage for, like, Obama and drones. I won't always agree with you, but at least the tone will be justified. Even then, you're still probably better off getting high, making music and fucking, at least for your long term health.
posted by klangklangston at 2:34 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Dude, isn't weed legal there? Go get some dank, write some music and fuck your boyfriend (husband?). I guarantee that experience to be at least ONE MILLION TIMES better than getting so het up that you don't recognize friendly riffing from attacks. Whenever you're tempted to stress about this thread, ask yourself, "Is there more weed I could be smoking? Is there more music I could be making or even just listening to? Have I gotten so laid that I couldn't go another round?"
Please, dude. Or at the very least, save your outrage for, like, Obama and drones. I won't always agree with you, but at least the tone will be justified. Even then, you're still probably better off getting high, making music and fucking, at least for your long term health.
posted by klangklangston at 2:34 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
zarq: She's not twisting what you've said. She's making a logical extrapolation.
But what about the pirates?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:35 PM on August 20, 2013
But what about the pirates?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:35 PM on August 20, 2013
Keep twisting those words into something I never said! Twisting one's words never gets old and you help make Metafilter look like that much more of a wonderful, honest place! Thank you.
So today was the first day of hawkwatch season for my team, but it's Fogust here, so instead of going up on the hill to ID and count raptors, we stayed down at the headquarters and passed the time by doing ID slide quizzes; we go around the room and each person has to say what they think the bird on the slide is when it's their turn.
This means: Being wrong in public, and having people - people who know more, people I respect and like - correct me in front of other people, and pick apart where my ID went wrong. And....I don't die. I never have. The corrections are always constructive and quite gentle, but there is often a little teasing, all very well-intentioned. Still never died from being wrong in public, admitting it, and having where I went wrong pointed out to me and teased a little over it.
What I said above? I wasn't trying to twist your words. I wasn't trying to deliberately misrepresent your position. I was poking a little fun at you and hyperbolizing your point.
You have dug your heels in here. Multiple academics, working scientists, librarians, and others with stakes in scientific and academic publishing have pointed out where your assumptions and accusations are incorrect. I swear to god you will not die if you admit publicly that you're wrong. I mean, did my ego feel a little ouchy when I got that slide wrongity wrong wrong in front of everybody? You bet! So what. I'd rather be a little ouchy and learn than never admit any errors and not learn.
posted by rtha at 2:42 PM on August 20, 2013 [51 favorites]
So today was the first day of hawkwatch season for my team, but it's Fogust here, so instead of going up on the hill to ID and count raptors, we stayed down at the headquarters and passed the time by doing ID slide quizzes; we go around the room and each person has to say what they think the bird on the slide is when it's their turn.
This means: Being wrong in public, and having people - people who know more, people I respect and like - correct me in front of other people, and pick apart where my ID went wrong. And....I don't die. I never have. The corrections are always constructive and quite gentle, but there is often a little teasing, all very well-intentioned. Still never died from being wrong in public, admitting it, and having where I went wrong pointed out to me and teased a little over it.
What I said above? I wasn't trying to twist your words. I wasn't trying to deliberately misrepresent your position. I was poking a little fun at you and hyperbolizing your point.
You have dug your heels in here. Multiple academics, working scientists, librarians, and others with stakes in scientific and academic publishing have pointed out where your assumptions and accusations are incorrect. I swear to god you will not die if you admit publicly that you're wrong. I mean, did my ego feel a little ouchy when I got that slide wrongity wrong wrong in front of everybody? You bet! So what. I'd rather be a little ouchy and learn than never admit any errors and not learn.
posted by rtha at 2:42 PM on August 20, 2013 [51 favorites]
Why is the rum gone?
Dagnabit, I got here too late.
posted by homunculus at 2:46 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Dagnabit, I got here too late.
posted by homunculus at 2:46 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hey rtha, the joke's gonna be on all of you when you discover that there are actually only two types of birds.
posted by yoink at 2:50 PM on August 20, 2013 [28 favorites]
posted by yoink at 2:50 PM on August 20, 2013 [28 favorites]
Is it weird that I feel like rtha's poking fun moment up there actually DOES make Metafilter a better place? It does a better job of that than... whatever this thread is supposed to be doing. Aside from the rap battles, of course. Those brightened the hell out of my day.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, dude. Unclench.
posted by palomar at 2:52 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
I guess what I'm trying to say is, dude. Unclench.
posted by palomar at 2:52 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Greg Nog came thisclose to owing me a new keyboard because of that!
posted by rtha at 2:54 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by rtha at 2:54 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I swear to god you will not die if you admit publicly that you're wrong.
Or, hell, you could even continue to insist that you're right and everyone else is wrong without being all shitty and condescending about it.
posted by teraflop at 2:56 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Or, hell, you could even continue to insist that you're right and everyone else is wrong without being all shitty and condescending about it.
posted by teraflop at 2:56 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
I think we're done here yeah? BP is Worst Metafilterer Of The Week and Blasdelb is probably at a tie with Greg Nog for Best Metafilterer Of The Week. There seems to be a kind of pulsing consensus and we all had a good time and learned some interesting things and there was a rap battle and favourites got sprayed around. Case closed maybe?
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:00 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:00 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
> Hey rtha, the joke's gonna be on all of you when you discover that there are actually only two types of birds.
The joke on that joke is that neither pigeons nor seagulls are birds.
And when I say birds I mean recognized species of birds.
This is a pedantic birder joke. Forgive me.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:03 PM on August 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
The joke on that joke is that neither pigeons nor seagulls are birds.
And when I say birds I mean recognized species of birds.
This is a pedantic birder joke. Forgive me.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:03 PM on August 20, 2013 [14 favorites]
BP is Worst Metafilterer Of The Week and Blasdelb is probably at a tie with Greg Nog for Best Metafilterer Of The Week
Obvious facts about Metafilter not being a library and Blasdelb not having the rights to republish others work get dismissed: wagons circled, hierarchy defended. Good job, folks.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:04 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Obvious facts about Metafilter not being a library and Blasdelb not having the rights to republish others work get dismissed: wagons circled, hierarchy defended. Good job, folks.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:04 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Obvious facts about Metafilter not being a library and Blasdelb not having the rights to republish others work get dismissed: wagons circled, hierarchy defended. Good job, folks.
You forgot tone-deaf foot stomping.
posted by iamabot at 3:06 PM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
You forgot tone-deaf foot stomping.
posted by iamabot at 3:06 PM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Obvious facts about Metafilter not being a library and Blasdelb not having the rights to republish others work
No one claimed that Metafilter was a library, and it is completely irrelevant to the question at hand whether it is or is not. Blasdelb is not "republishing" works by sharing them on a one-to-one basis with other Mefites on the basis of individual emailed requests, anymore than you "republish" a book when you lend it to a friend after reading it. Seriously, BP, you are simply misinformed about the legal framework here; I wish like hell you'd allow yourself to listen to the myriad of informed professionals who have, very kindly, set you straight on this point.
posted by yoink at 3:09 PM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
No one claimed that Metafilter was a library, and it is completely irrelevant to the question at hand whether it is or is not. Blasdelb is not "republishing" works by sharing them on a one-to-one basis with other Mefites on the basis of individual emailed requests, anymore than you "republish" a book when you lend it to a friend after reading it. Seriously, BP, you are simply misinformed about the legal framework here; I wish like hell you'd allow yourself to listen to the myriad of informed professionals who have, very kindly, set you straight on this point.
posted by yoink at 3:09 PM on August 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
(I don't have any dog in this hunt BP so I'm not trying to be a jerk, it's just I think we've all got a good idea of how this went and how it would continue into the future and it just feels unnecessary.)
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:10 PM on August 20, 2013
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:10 PM on August 20, 2013
This is that responding-sarcastically-to-something-unflattering-while-not-addressing-anything-substantive thing again, BP. There are seriously a whole bunch of people in here willing to have an actual conversation about this thing you brought up, and you just keep coming back to periodically ignore all but comment anyway just to express your unhappiness with the situation.
No one can compel you to have an actual conversation in here and it's fine if you feel like you won't get anything out of it for some reason, but I don't understand why you haven't just walked away from it entirely if you don't have any intention of meaningfully engaging it. This does not seem like a good use of Metatalk.
And, yeah, at this point I think just about anything productive that could have happened in here has either happened or conclusively failed to happen, so if nothing pressing arises in the real near future I'm gonna go ahead and shut it down.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:10 PM on August 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
No one can compel you to have an actual conversation in here and it's fine if you feel like you won't get anything out of it for some reason, but I don't understand why you haven't just walked away from it entirely if you don't have any intention of meaningfully engaging it. This does not seem like a good use of Metatalk.
And, yeah, at this point I think just about anything productive that could have happened in here has either happened or conclusively failed to happen, so if nothing pressing arises in the real near future I'm gonna go ahead and shut it down.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:10 PM on August 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
The joke on that joke is that neither pigeons nor seagulls are birds.
Oh great, another shill for Big Bird.
posted by yoink at 3:11 PM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
Oh great, another shill for Big Bird.
posted by yoink at 3:11 PM on August 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
Blasdelb rocks. And whenever I read some really cool post of his, I'm always reminded of the fact that I have photos of him drinking from a glass of beer that's almost as long as his arm.
posted by daveje at 3:15 PM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by daveje at 3:15 PM on August 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
"Obvious facts about Metafilter not being a library"
I guess to just add to all the questions you'll never address in your own thread, did you really just somehow not see this?
posted by Blasdelb at 3:15 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I guess to just add to all the questions you'll never address in your own thread, did you really just somehow not see this?
Jessamyn: I'm aware of that. Your argument was, as far as I understood it, saying that this sort of sharing of files did bad things to the terms publishers set (and I assumed the prices) in libraries. But please set me straight about this so that I can just post my comments to both active MeTa threads at once?The only hierarchy here is one you're currently trying very hard to enforce - the moment you stop it everyone else will continue to not give a shit about how right you feel you are again.
posted by Blasdelb at 3:15 PM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
"so if nothing pressing arises in the real near future I'm gonna go ahead and shut it down."
Hey this is a really neat thing. Having warning before a post shuts down is, if reasonably doable, really awesome, thanks cortex!
posted by Blasdelb at 3:18 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Hey this is a really neat thing. Having warning before a post shuts down is, if reasonably doable, really awesome, thanks cortex!
posted by Blasdelb at 3:18 PM on August 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Can we turn this into a dance-off now?
posted by rtha at 3:20 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by rtha at 3:20 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
cortex: " And, yeah, at this point I think just about anything productive that could have happened in here has either happened or conclusively failed to happen, so if nothing pressing arises in the real near future I'm gonna go ahead and shut it down."
One more vote for "Please do."
Kinda sad, though. This could have turned into a really positive, productive conversation.
posted by zarq at 3:23 PM on August 20, 2013
One more vote for "Please do."
Kinda sad, though. This could have turned into a really positive, productive conversation.
posted by zarq at 3:23 PM on August 20, 2013
zarq: "Kinda sad, though. This could have turned into a really positive, productive conversation."
Seriously, I was holding out for an awesome positive rap battle with THE Blazecock, oh well.
rtha: "Can we turn this into a dance-off now?"
Way ahead of you!
posted by Blasdelb at 3:24 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
Seriously, I was holding out for an awesome positive rap battle with THE Blazecock, oh well.
rtha: "Can we turn this into a dance-off now?"
Way ahead of you!
posted by Blasdelb at 3:24 PM on August 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
jessamyn: "If you're just mad at Blasdelb, drop him a note. Otherwise you nominally showed up to have a conversation with the community so ... here we are."
This is worth keeping in mind for anyone who wants to start a callout in the future. Memailing someone is private. Memailing / Emailing the mods is too. Posting in Meta opens up the discussion to the entire community, and may very well not go as expected or could conceivably backfire entirely.
posted by zarq at 3:27 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
This is worth keeping in mind for anyone who wants to start a callout in the future. Memailing someone is private. Memailing / Emailing the mods is too. Posting in Meta opens up the discussion to the entire community, and may very well not go as expected or could conceivably backfire entirely.
posted by zarq at 3:27 PM on August 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
"Obvious facts about Metafilter not being a library and Blasdelb not having the rights to republish others work get dismissed: wagons circled, hierarchy defended. Good job, folks."
Have you smoked all the weed, made all the music, and fucked all the boyfriend/husband?
posted by klangklangston at 3:28 PM on August 20, 2013
Have you smoked all the weed, made all the music, and fucked all the boyfriend/husband?
posted by klangklangston at 3:28 PM on August 20, 2013
Keep twisting those words into something I never said!
I'm guessing when you look in the mirror you put a blindfold on first.
posted by juiceCake at 3:31 PM on August 20, 2013
I'm guessing when you look in the mirror you put a blindfold on first.
posted by juiceCake at 3:31 PM on August 20, 2013
Right, everybody drive safe.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:31 PM on August 20, 2013 [24 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:31 PM on August 20, 2013 [24 favorites]
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posted by downing street memo at 6:37 PM on August 19, 2013 [11 favorites]