Catholic Bashing August 30, 2004 4:28 AM Subscribe
More immediate Catholic Bashing. [more inside]
It's about banning the use of particular kinds of organ in church. It was inevitable.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:36 AM on August 30, 2004
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:36 AM on August 30, 2004
Just delete the thing... it's stupid any way, even if it was current.
posted by Witty at 5:09 AM on August 30, 2004
posted by Witty at 5:09 AM on August 30, 2004
Not the greatest post, I agree.
any institution that 'condones by cover-up' rampant paedophilia.
And there was no need to turn things in this direction. But even as a practicing Catholic, I must admit this statement is (sadly) more or less accurate, though I hope we can at least change "condones" to "condoned".
Is it "bashing" when it's true?
posted by jalexei at 5:30 AM on August 30, 2004
any institution that 'condones by cover-up' rampant paedophilia.
And there was no need to turn things in this direction. But even as a practicing Catholic, I must admit this statement is (sadly) more or less accurate, though I hope we can at least change "condones" to "condoned".
Is it "bashing" when it's true?
posted by jalexei at 5:30 AM on August 30, 2004
"Bashing" just means: "It's a criticism I don't agree with, so I will discredit it by tossing out this new word someone told me to use." It's the equivalent of "politically correct" in the 90s. "It's safe to ignore this criticism, because it's just 'bashing'."
posted by jpoulos at 5:56 AM on August 30, 2004
posted by jpoulos at 5:56 AM on August 30, 2004
No, I think "bashing" means "gratuitously attacking". Which I think is perfectly apt in this case.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:04 AM on August 30, 2004
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:04 AM on August 30, 2004
The link to the Vatican ban adds nothing to the FPP and basically derails the comments right from the start. It's just a crappy post.
posted by tommasz at 6:17 AM on August 30, 2004
posted by tommasz at 6:17 AM on August 30, 2004
No, I think "bashing" means "gratuitously attacking". Which I think is perfectly apt in this case.
I agree. It's such a MeFi knee-jerk to speak of paedophilia whenever anything to do with Catholicism is mentioned. Imagine if AIDS was always brought up whenever homosexuality gets mentioned. Both are distasteful and innaccurate connotations of each set of people as a whole.
posted by SpaceCadet at 6:20 AM on August 30, 2004
I agree. It's such a MeFi knee-jerk to speak of paedophilia whenever anything to do with Catholicism is mentioned. Imagine if AIDS was always brought up whenever homosexuality gets mentioned. Both are distasteful and innaccurate connotations of each set of people as a whole.
posted by SpaceCadet at 6:20 AM on August 30, 2004
I am saddened that the church has held numerous debates over something as pathetic as which type of church organ is acceptable, whilst ignoring really pressing issues (including the paedophilia that is rife by code of silence). I think if you look at my comment war and other nasties were also mentioned.
Sorry if anyone was offended, I felt it was a valid comment on a crazy situation. If the PC brigade want to destroy the thread, so be it.
posted by DrDoberman at 6:46 AM on August 30, 2004
Sorry if anyone was offended, I felt it was a valid comment on a crazy situation. If the PC brigade want to destroy the thread, so be it.
posted by DrDoberman at 6:46 AM on August 30, 2004
At least the PC Brigade doesn't touch little boys on their pee-pees DrDOBERMANNNNNNNN!
posted by Witty at 7:31 AM on August 30, 2004
posted by Witty at 7:31 AM on August 30, 2004
The post was meant in no way to be catholic bashing (especially considering my religious background). I just thought the history of the hammond organ was interesting.
Thanks to the people who posted the other links though.
posted by drezdn at 8:09 AM on August 30, 2004
Thanks to the people who posted the other links though.
posted by drezdn at 8:09 AM on August 30, 2004
This is all due to a couple strongly off-topic comments by DrDoberman, and not mefi as a whole. Everyone else is talking about organs in the thread, which I think is a perfectly valuable one. The old link was a bit of nostalga and wasn't meant to be bashing of anything.
DrDoberman, chill out.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:25 AM on August 30, 2004
DrDoberman, chill out.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:25 AM on August 30, 2004
drezdn, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt on your post, but the first comment threw me for a loop for reasons previously stated. It is a nice little thread now, the other links help out quite a bit.
posted by sciurus at 8:28 AM on August 30, 2004
posted by sciurus at 8:28 AM on August 30, 2004
"...talking about organs in the thread..."
Hee!
And really, yay for anything involving a B3. Classic. Thanks, drezdn.
DrDoberman, if you really don't see what the problem is, try this thought experiement: imagine you're the drunken uncle ranting about politics at your nephew's birthday and spilling your drink on his friends.
posted by cortex at 8:40 AM on August 30, 2004
Hee!
And really, yay for anything involving a B3. Classic. Thanks, drezdn.
DrDoberman, if you really don't see what the problem is, try this thought experiement: imagine you're the drunken uncle ranting about politics at your nephew's birthday and spilling your drink on his friends.
posted by cortex at 8:40 AM on August 30, 2004
I think it's funny that an organized international church went to all the trouble of banning an electric organ. That's certainly not "Catholic-bashing".
Doberman's first comment seems somewhat meaningful, though tendentiously stated. It's true that, even in the 1940s, the Catholic Church should have been turning its attention to more significant problems than the ways in which its musical instruments produced sound.
The second comment, though, went over the line. In my opinion.
The church of my childhood had a real organ in it; the first time I went to a church with a Hammond organ, I was irresistibly reminded of skating rinks and baseball parks.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:44 AM on August 30, 2004
Doberman's first comment seems somewhat meaningful, though tendentiously stated. It's true that, even in the 1940s, the Catholic Church should have been turning its attention to more significant problems than the ways in which its musical instruments produced sound.
The second comment, though, went over the line. In my opinion.
The church of my childhood had a real organ in it; the first time I went to a church with a Hammond organ, I was irresistibly reminded of skating rinks and baseball parks.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:44 AM on August 30, 2004
imagine you're the drunken uncle ranting about politics at your nephew's birthday and spilling your drink on his friends.
Cool! ... I want to be that Uncle.
posted by seanyboy at 8:55 AM on August 30, 2004
Cool! ... I want to be that Uncle.
posted by seanyboy at 8:55 AM on August 30, 2004
Since they haven't excommunicated me yet, catholics deserve all the bashing they get.
posted by mischief at 9:03 AM on August 30, 2004
posted by mischief at 9:03 AM on August 30, 2004
"....any institution that 'condones by cover-up' rampant paedophilia." - I don't see the Catholic Church as condoning rampant paedophilia as much as I see it teaching rampant denial. There's a difference.
The Catholic Church has positions I deeply respect and others which I abhor. But I think one of it's primary messages - a covert one - is that it's always best to hide such abuses as paedophilia behind the institutional veil.
I think that approach to be both dumb, ass-backward, and unrealistic. But then, I have a dim view of most or all organized religions.
Next : Buddhist bashing!
posted by troutfishing at 10:17 AM on August 30, 2004
The Catholic Church has positions I deeply respect and others which I abhor. But I think one of it's primary messages - a covert one - is that it's always best to hide such abuses as paedophilia behind the institutional veil.
I think that approach to be both dumb, ass-backward, and unrealistic. But then, I have a dim view of most or all organized religions.
Next : Buddhist bashing!
posted by troutfishing at 10:17 AM on August 30, 2004
Since they haven't excommunicated me yet, catholics deserve all the bashing they get.
Yeah, right: all catholics deserved to be bashed by sanctimonius Mefi-ites because some of them (tiny minority) are paedophiles.
Your comment is as bad as saying "All gays deserve to be bashed because some of them are paedophiles". See how far you get with that comment.
posted by SpaceCadet at 10:59 AM on August 30, 2004
Yeah, right: all catholics deserved to be bashed by sanctimonius Mefi-ites because some of them (tiny minority) are paedophiles.
Your comment is as bad as saying "All gays deserve to be bashed because some of them are paedophiles". See how far you get with that comment.
posted by SpaceCadet at 10:59 AM on August 30, 2004
Er....
The problem isn't that there are some pedophiles in the Catholic church; the problem is that the Catholic hierarchy has made it a point of policy not to protect children from those pedophiles. That's an established fact.
It's hard for people to overlook that.
posted by Hildegarde at 12:15 PM on August 30, 2004
The problem isn't that there are some pedophiles in the Catholic church; the problem is that the Catholic hierarchy has made it a point of policy not to protect children from those pedophiles. That's an established fact.
It's hard for people to overlook that.
posted by Hildegarde at 12:15 PM on August 30, 2004
Yeah, right: all catholics deserved to be bashed by sanctimonius Mefi-ites because some of them (tiny minority) are paedophiles.
"The Church" is not the same as "all Catholics". The two groups are, in fact, entirely too distinct.
Plus, what Hildegarde said.
posted by jpoulos at 12:24 PM on August 30, 2004
"The Church" is not the same as "all Catholics". The two groups are, in fact, entirely too distinct.
Plus, what Hildegarde said.
posted by jpoulos at 12:24 PM on August 30, 2004
The problem isn't that there are some pedophiles in the Catholic church; the problem is that the Catholic hierarchy has made it a point of policy not to protect children from those pedophiles. That's an established fact.
Er....Hildegarde, then shouldn't people who say "catholics deserve all the bashing they get" actually be aware that it is only the heads of the catholic church who deserve all the bashing they get?
People seem to forget they are including tens of millions of followers when they say "catholics". "Heads of the catholic church" requires more keystrokes, but hey, you get to be more accurate.
posted by SpaceCadet at 12:47 PM on August 30, 2004
Er....Hildegarde, then shouldn't people who say "catholics deserve all the bashing they get" actually be aware that it is only the heads of the catholic church who deserve all the bashing they get?
People seem to forget they are including tens of millions of followers when they say "catholics". "Heads of the catholic church" requires more keystrokes, but hey, you get to be more accurate.
posted by SpaceCadet at 12:47 PM on August 30, 2004
Institutions cover up the misdeeds of their members. The Church covers for their priests, police cover for crooked cops, colleges cover for their professors, parents cover for their children, the military covers up for soldiers, blah blah blah.
If the group is large enough, then they're either covering up misdeeds... or finding a scapegoat to blame them on.
posted by Jart at 1:56 PM on August 30, 2004
If the group is large enough, then they're either covering up misdeeds... or finding a scapegoat to blame them on.
posted by Jart at 1:56 PM on August 30, 2004
The problem isn't that there are some pedophiles in the Catholic church; the problem is that the Catholic hierarchy has made it a point of policy not to protect children from those pedophiles. That's an established fact.
[rant]
Have you ever actually been involved with the Church on any local level? Has ANYONE here in the last couple years since all of this happened?? Yes, Pedophilia needs to be dealt with and should have never happened in the first place, but to say the Church has done nothing to protect the children is ignorant at best, no offense. I've been involved through Youth Group and other such activities for years, and the rules have become very very strict. Most Churches I've been associated with will lock a Priest under lock and key if he is alone with youth for any amount of time regardless of the reason (except Confession). I, a college student, am never allowed alone with teens and kids of the Church or am I will be kicked out of the ministry.
Yes, the Church as a hierarchy has royally screwed up in this whole ordeal and I think those Priests involved should go to court. However, people don't stop to think what is being done on a Parish level and the fact is the overwhelming majority of the work is done on the local Parish level. It just so happens that the hierachy is what gets noticed
[/rant]
*this is not meant to vindicate what happened, but rather to point out that to say the Church is willfully doing nothing is simply inaccurate*
posted by jmd82 at 2:35 PM on August 30, 2004
[rant]
Have you ever actually been involved with the Church on any local level? Has ANYONE here in the last couple years since all of this happened?? Yes, Pedophilia needs to be dealt with and should have never happened in the first place, but to say the Church has done nothing to protect the children is ignorant at best, no offense. I've been involved through Youth Group and other such activities for years, and the rules have become very very strict. Most Churches I've been associated with will lock a Priest under lock and key if he is alone with youth for any amount of time regardless of the reason (except Confession). I, a college student, am never allowed alone with teens and kids of the Church or am I will be kicked out of the ministry.
Yes, the Church as a hierarchy has royally screwed up in this whole ordeal and I think those Priests involved should go to court. However, people don't stop to think what is being done on a Parish level and the fact is the overwhelming majority of the work is done on the local Parish level. It just so happens that the hierachy is what gets noticed
[/rant]
*this is not meant to vindicate what happened, but rather to point out that to say the Church is willfully doing nothing is simply inaccurate*
posted by jmd82 at 2:35 PM on August 30, 2004
I didn't say anything about bashing catholics for being pedophiles. I say bash them for being catholics, the sheep and the shepards both.
Although I am an atheist, I am also still a catholic by birth (since they have not yet excommunicated me); therefore I can say 'bash the fuckers' all I want because I am one of them.
So nyah! ;-P
posted by mischief at 3:48 PM on August 30, 2004
Although I am an atheist, I am also still a catholic by birth (since they have not yet excommunicated me); therefore I can say 'bash the fuckers' all I want because I am one of them.
So nyah! ;-P
posted by mischief at 3:48 PM on August 30, 2004
Mischief, you're not important enough to excommunicate.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:18 PM on August 30, 2004
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:18 PM on August 30, 2004
ot? : have any of those priests actually ever been excommunicated?
posted by amberglow at 9:00 PM on August 30, 2004
posted by amberglow at 9:00 PM on August 30, 2004
jmd82: I think those Priests involved should go to court
You mean jail, right?
posted by sharpener at 9:50 PM on August 30, 2004
You mean jail, right?
posted by sharpener at 9:50 PM on August 30, 2004
You mean jail, right?
If/when they are found guilty in the court of law by a jury, yes.
posted by jmd82 at 10:08 PM on August 30, 2004
If/when they are found guilty in the court of law by a jury, yes.
posted by jmd82 at 10:08 PM on August 30, 2004
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posted by sciurus at 4:30 AM on August 30, 2004