Releasing MeFi Code July 13, 2004 11:02 AM Subscribe
From the wiki: "MetaFilter runs on a ColdFusion engine written by MattHaughey. The source isn't available although he is thinking of GPLing it in July 2003."
I don't remember any discussion of releasing the MetaFilter code. Is it still under consideration?
I don't remember any discussion of releasing the MetaFilter code. Is it still under consideration?
Is it still under consideration?
Not really, no. After I mentioned it online, I got a few emails from people involved in high profile GPL projects that congratulated me on thinking about it, but warned of their experiences. Things like forking and people running with the code in ways you never imagined were the big ones.
Also, the most obvious reason against GPL on the code is that the code requires a commercial product to run. I love that some php wiki code is free and hackable, because I can run it with a freely downloadable php extension to my free web server. With CF code, it's like GPLing some code for the audio software ProTools. What good is free software that only runs in an environment that costs thousands to license and setup?
Ever since the mefi clones came out, it's kind of taken away all the demand for my code anyway. Most of the clones are open source in some way, and anyone who wants to can extend those as far as they want.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:10 PM on July 13, 2004
Not really, no. After I mentioned it online, I got a few emails from people involved in high profile GPL projects that congratulated me on thinking about it, but warned of their experiences. Things like forking and people running with the code in ways you never imagined were the big ones.
Also, the most obvious reason against GPL on the code is that the code requires a commercial product to run. I love that some php wiki code is free and hackable, because I can run it with a freely downloadable php extension to my free web server. With CF code, it's like GPLing some code for the audio software ProTools. What good is free software that only runs in an environment that costs thousands to license and setup?
Ever since the mefi clones came out, it's kind of taken away all the demand for my code anyway. Most of the clones are open source in some way, and anyone who wants to can extend those as far as they want.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:10 PM on July 13, 2004
What about the code that generates ParisParamus' posts? Actually on second thought I don't want any more copies of that loose on the net.
posted by Space Coyote at 1:31 PM on July 13, 2004
posted by Space Coyote at 1:31 PM on July 13, 2004
Well, I'd love to play with it, but I see your point: without a procedure for vetting and incorporating changes it could be a mess.
posted by timeistight at 1:34 PM on July 13, 2004
posted by timeistight at 1:34 PM on July 13, 2004
That was directed at mathowie, not Space Coyote.
posted by timeistight at 1:36 PM on July 13, 2004
posted by timeistight at 1:36 PM on July 13, 2004
Things like forking and people running with the code in ways you never imagined were the big ones.
Um.. isn't that kinda... part of the point... you know? Open source ensures that if other people don't like the way you're maintaining the code, they can fork it and do it their way. And if they do something with your code that you never imagined, then that's great!
I agree with your point about releasing ColdFusion code being a bit of a useless thing to do, though. People probably wouldn't actually use it on their own sites. Although I suppose you could still get some utility from it if people here who know CF started submitting patches with bugfixes and extra features.
posted by reklaw at 1:44 PM on July 13, 2004
Um.. isn't that kinda... part of the point... you know? Open source ensures that if other people don't like the way you're maintaining the code, they can fork it and do it their way. And if they do something with your code that you never imagined, then that's great!
I agree with your point about releasing ColdFusion code being a bit of a useless thing to do, though. People probably wouldn't actually use it on their own sites. Although I suppose you could still get some utility from it if people here who know CF started submitting patches with bugfixes and extra features.
posted by reklaw at 1:44 PM on July 13, 2004
And if they do something with your code that you never imagined, then that's great!
Yeah, that sounds nice, until NAMBLA or the KKK starts using your software to run their Web site, and puts your name on the site's credit page.
posted by kindall at 2:13 PM on July 13, 2004
Yeah, that sounds nice, until NAMBLA or the KKK starts using your software to run their Web site, and puts your name on the site's credit page.
posted by kindall at 2:13 PM on July 13, 2004
I'm not afraid of nazis or forks in my code, the point I didn't make clear is that two people I talked to from open source projects we've all heard of said both projects became nightmares to manage.
I'm ok with forks and crazy new uses of mefi, that's entirely the point of open sourcing something, but I'm already up to my eyeballs managing the community, throwing in a duplicate set of management requirements for the codebase and coders would be more work.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:21 PM on July 13, 2004
I'm ok with forks and crazy new uses of mefi, that's entirely the point of open sourcing something, but I'm already up to my eyeballs managing the community, throwing in a duplicate set of management requirements for the codebase and coders would be more work.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:21 PM on July 13, 2004
The real question is is running with forks half as fun as running with scissors?
posted by Space Coyote at 2:33 PM on July 13, 2004
posted by Space Coyote at 2:33 PM on July 13, 2004
If you wanted to, you could just release the current code once -- and only once -- and then let people fork it themselves from there. That'd free you from having to maintain a codebase (running an open source project is certainly no picnic, I'll give you that), and if one of the people who decides to fork it produces something neat then you could add it to mefi -- or you could just ignore all the open source projects, whichever you like. Gnutella is almost an example of a project working like that, and I think a few emulators have done something similar before.
posted by reklaw at 3:27 PM on July 13, 2004
posted by reklaw at 3:27 PM on July 13, 2004
The real question is is running with forks half as fun as running with scissors?
Perhaps (if she ever comes back), you could ask.
posted by dg at 4:11 PM on July 13, 2004
Perhaps (if she ever comes back), you could ask.
posted by dg at 4:11 PM on July 13, 2004
I'd be interested in taking a look at it, but just for curiosity's sake.
posted by angry modem at 4:16 PM on July 13, 2004
posted by angry modem at 4:16 PM on July 13, 2004
Ever since the mefi clones came out, it's kind of taken away all the demand for my code anyway. Most of the clones are open source in some way, and anyone who wants to can extend those as far as they want.
That's true, but I don't think it's a worthwhile reason. I think that if there's a reason why open sourcing MetaFilter might not set the world on fire, it's due to ColdFusion.. I've nothing against the language, but very few people have the resources available to use it these days. Of course, I'd still love to see the code.. much like I enjoyed looking at the Wolfenstein 3D and Quake 1 code back in the day.
But back to why the open source MeFi clones aren't a worthwhile reason to hold onto your code..
FreeFilter isn't currently a patch on MeFi, and MetaPhilter, while a little closer, seems to have died a bit of a death (its official site has been taken over by domain hoggers). Conventia is also rather dead. PHPilfer holds the distinction of being the most recently updated, and seems to be alive. FreeFilter has tended to only be updated when I've needed it, it's certainly not been something I ever wrote for others.. as such, it's kinda dead. I do need something in a similar vein shortly though, so you never know!
posted by wackybrit at 6:33 PM on July 13, 2004
That's true, but I don't think it's a worthwhile reason. I think that if there's a reason why open sourcing MetaFilter might not set the world on fire, it's due to ColdFusion.. I've nothing against the language, but very few people have the resources available to use it these days. Of course, I'd still love to see the code.. much like I enjoyed looking at the Wolfenstein 3D and Quake 1 code back in the day.
But back to why the open source MeFi clones aren't a worthwhile reason to hold onto your code..
FreeFilter isn't currently a patch on MeFi, and MetaPhilter, while a little closer, seems to have died a bit of a death (its official site has been taken over by domain hoggers). Conventia is also rather dead. PHPilfer holds the distinction of being the most recently updated, and seems to be alive. FreeFilter has tended to only be updated when I've needed it, it's certainly not been something I ever wrote for others.. as such, it's kinda dead. I do need something in a similar vein shortly though, so you never know!
posted by wackybrit at 6:33 PM on July 13, 2004
Now I've read the whole thread again, I think I overstressed the CF thing a bit, when it's clearly been mentioned a couple of times there. Sorry, got caught up in my own chatter!
posted by wackybrit at 6:54 PM on July 13, 2004
posted by wackybrit at 6:54 PM on July 13, 2004
I think the whole ColdFusion "problem" is a little bit overstated. The developer's version of CF is free and reasonably priced hosting is available.
Besides, wouldn't it be a big boost to the clones to have the original code to work from?
posted by timeistight at 8:49 PM on July 13, 2004
Besides, wouldn't it be a big boost to the clones to have the original code to work from?
posted by timeistight at 8:49 PM on July 13, 2004
Why's everybody dissing ColdFusion like no one uses it? We run 30 shared CF servers where I work and have thousands of sites on them. It's really not that hard to get good, inexpensive shared CF hosting.
Also, I'm going to have to disagree strongly with the sentiment that an open source CF project is somehow a waste. I use and work on a number of them.
posted by TungstenChef at 7:26 AM on July 14, 2004
Also, I'm going to have to disagree strongly with the sentiment that an open source CF project is somehow a waste. I use and work on a number of them.
posted by TungstenChef at 7:26 AM on July 14, 2004
Another complication of opening the source of a popular site is that not everyone will be nice enough to tell you and offer you a patch when they spot an exploit; they might instead decide to have a little fun with it. So the first thing you have to ask yourself when you open the source is "do I have time in the coming weeks to patch the exploits that people will find, and monitor the site much more closely than I usually do in order to watch for and repair mayhem?" Not to imply that there's anything in particular wrong with your code; but it's a truism that there's something wrong with every program more complicated than Hello World, particularly if no one but the author has ever looked at it.
posted by George_Spiggott at 3:17 PM on July 14, 2004
posted by George_Spiggott at 3:17 PM on July 14, 2004
I think the whole ColdFusion "problem" is a little bit overstated. The developer's version of CF is free and reasonably priced hosting is available.
But many of the people who have the resources to get larger projects underway would have their own servers (or a larger hosting arrangement they are more than happy with), and would rather stick with Perl / PHP / Java, et al., rather than adopt a dying technology like CF. CF is really niche these days, whether it's the pet fancy of a bunch of good developers and Web hosts or not.
posted by wackybrit at 5:50 PM on July 14, 2004
But many of the people who have the resources to get larger projects underway would have their own servers (or a larger hosting arrangement they are more than happy with), and would rather stick with Perl / PHP / Java, et al., rather than adopt a dying technology like CF. CF is really niche these days, whether it's the pet fancy of a bunch of good developers and Web hosts or not.
posted by wackybrit at 5:50 PM on July 14, 2004
I'm one of the people who launched SportsFilter using the MetaFilter codebase in January 2002. Matt provided a ton of programming help before and after the launch and has always been willing to give us advice.
The MetaFilter codebase (at least the one we started from) is great at what it does, but we've found it's difficult to make changes. Matt added features to MetaFilter over time, so the code's not as easy to figure out as it would be if he'd designed and built it all at once, and there isn't any documentation. (I'm not complaining; the code is what I'd end up with if I started a site and added features here and there.) Also, the programmer types among us are more comfortable with PHP/MySQL than we are with ColdFusion, and we feel that ColdFusion limits our choices of ISPs and probably adds to our cost because ColdFusion is a commercial app and PHP/MySQL are free. We're switching to a PHP/MySQL solution this summer.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:12 PM on July 14, 2004
The MetaFilter codebase (at least the one we started from) is great at what it does, but we've found it's difficult to make changes. Matt added features to MetaFilter over time, so the code's not as easy to figure out as it would be if he'd designed and built it all at once, and there isn't any documentation. (I'm not complaining; the code is what I'd end up with if I started a site and added features here and there.) Also, the programmer types among us are more comfortable with PHP/MySQL than we are with ColdFusion, and we feel that ColdFusion limits our choices of ISPs and probably adds to our cost because ColdFusion is a commercial app and PHP/MySQL are free. We're switching to a PHP/MySQL solution this summer.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:12 PM on July 14, 2004
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posted by quonsar at 12:06 PM on July 13, 2004