This site is just too much November 5, 2004 10:46 AM Subscribe
I had my finger on the button of a new MeTa thread, ready to congratulate Matt on having the discretion to NOT delete the Rape Haiku post. Unfortunately, that's a thread that will never exist.
Please state your case on why it's a good idea to keep the rape haiku site up.
Honestly, I'm all ears.
After the 9th or 10th haiku that mentioned the phrase "swallow it, bitch" or "blood dripping ass" I figured hey, on first view I didn't find it funny and it was of little merit, but I'm having trouble finding any merit there.
I can see it's goofing on violence against women, but call me a pansy for not finding anything to laugh at.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:51 AM on November 5, 2004
Honestly, I'm all ears.
After the 9th or 10th haiku that mentioned the phrase "swallow it, bitch" or "blood dripping ass" I figured hey, on first view I didn't find it funny and it was of little merit, but I'm having trouble finding any merit there.
I can see it's goofing on violence against women, but call me a pansy for not finding anything to laugh at.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:51 AM on November 5, 2004
In my haste to rewrite my new MeTa thread, I accidentally forgot to set the topic to 'etiquette/policy'.
Anyways, Matt, I was going to say that in spite of the recent spate of post deletions, I was proud that you knew where to draw the line between keeping the site free of never-ending partisan bickery - and outright censorship - but unfortunately that's something I can no longer do.
MCD posted a link to a hilarious site, and for those who were going to find it offensive - the link read 'Rape Haikus', the link was to rapehaikus.com - there was no excuse for pretending you didn't know what you were getting into. None.
Obviously different people have different ideas concerning what is acceptable, what is funny, etc. But the fact that you changed your comment from first:
'Jesus fucking christ that shit is violent.'
to
'Jesus fucking christ that shit is violent. I'm tempted to delete this link because the "shut up bitch, take it" stuff is too much for me.'
to finally outright deleting the post indicates to me that you let your own personal feelings result in a decision to censor, rather than moderate. I probably wouldn't be staging a callout here at all if I hadn't observed the clear progression that occured there.
posted by Ryvar at 10:56 AM on November 5, 2004
Anyways, Matt, I was going to say that in spite of the recent spate of post deletions, I was proud that you knew where to draw the line between keeping the site free of never-ending partisan bickery - and outright censorship - but unfortunately that's something I can no longer do.
MCD posted a link to a hilarious site, and for those who were going to find it offensive - the link read 'Rape Haikus', the link was to rapehaikus.com - there was no excuse for pretending you didn't know what you were getting into. None.
Obviously different people have different ideas concerning what is acceptable, what is funny, etc. But the fact that you changed your comment from first:
'Jesus fucking christ that shit is violent.'
to
'Jesus fucking christ that shit is violent. I'm tempted to delete this link because the "shut up bitch, take it" stuff is too much for me.'
to finally outright deleting the post indicates to me that you let your own personal feelings result in a decision to censor, rather than moderate. I probably wouldn't be staging a callout here at all if I hadn't observed the clear progression that occured there.
posted by Ryvar at 10:56 AM on November 5, 2004
MCD posted a link to a hilarious site, and for those who were going to find it offensive - the link read 'Rape Haikus', the link was to rapehaikus.com - there was no excuse for pretending you didn't know what you were getting into. None.
I've already stated that I don't find violence against women funny. A link to God Hates Fags would likely get deleted if the entire site was filled with fantasies about killing gays. I would also delete a link to a site about lynching. If it was at lynchjokes.com it wouldn't matter.
Look, we could sit here and trade alt.tasteless.binaries images or links to rotten.com all day, but what's the fucking point? Joking about sexual violence in graphic terms isn't something I want sticking around and I honestly couldn't give a fuck if you believe I'm unfair for doing that.
I'll make you a deal: If I hear a chorus of female members here state they found the site hilarious, I'll put it back up.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:01 AM on November 5, 2004
I've already stated that I don't find violence against women funny. A link to God Hates Fags would likely get deleted if the entire site was filled with fantasies about killing gays. I would also delete a link to a site about lynching. If it was at lynchjokes.com it wouldn't matter.
Look, we could sit here and trade alt.tasteless.binaries images or links to rotten.com all day, but what's the fucking point? Joking about sexual violence in graphic terms isn't something I want sticking around and I honestly couldn't give a fuck if you believe I'm unfair for doing that.
I'll make you a deal: If I hear a chorus of female members here state they found the site hilarious, I'll put it back up.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:01 AM on November 5, 2004
I think it was a bad call, underscoring the arbitrary approach taken on this site to protecting/ignoring people's sensibilities. Poems about violence are shied away from while actual verbal violence between members is permitted and even encouraged.
This site didn't particularly appeal to me, but I think it's a stretch to claim that it was intended to be "funny" as some in the deleted thread complained, and I don't think that discussion of any subject should be taboo, for what is denied is what festers. And from my cursory glance at the site in question, it had the potential to offer varied perspectives on an admittedly ugly (but very human) subject. We don't need daddy to shield us from the venom of the "take it, bitch" idiots (who would no doubt be properly excoriated in any ensuing thread), and those who are constitutionally unable to look at ugly things should not censor the rest of us (we've had this discussion before, with regard to the original beheading video, for example).
And btw, "rape's an act of violence, not sex" is a pat, simplistic viewpoint that has been pretty thoroughly discredited in modern psychology.
posted by rushmc at 11:04 AM on November 5, 2004
This site didn't particularly appeal to me, but I think it's a stretch to claim that it was intended to be "funny" as some in the deleted thread complained, and I don't think that discussion of any subject should be taboo, for what is denied is what festers. And from my cursory glance at the site in question, it had the potential to offer varied perspectives on an admittedly ugly (but very human) subject. We don't need daddy to shield us from the venom of the "take it, bitch" idiots (who would no doubt be properly excoriated in any ensuing thread), and those who are constitutionally unable to look at ugly things should not censor the rest of us (we've had this discussion before, with regard to the original beheading video, for example).
And btw, "rape's an act of violence, not sex" is a pat, simplistic viewpoint that has been pretty thoroughly discredited in modern psychology.
posted by rushmc at 11:04 AM on November 5, 2004
the arbitrary approach taken on this site to protecting/ignoring people's sensibilities
Yeah, because I'm human and not a robot. I'm completely fine with that, even if many here will disagree with the call. But I'm not comfortable with a link from my server to a violent "joke" site. Anyone's free to get a weblog at blogspot and post it.
"rape's an act of violence, not sex" is a pat, simplistic viewpoint that has been pretty thoroughly discredited in modern psychology.
Really? Got anything to back that up? My friends that do counseling and teach it are the ones that told me that pat, simplistic answer.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:15 AM on November 5, 2004 [1 favorite]
Yeah, because I'm human and not a robot. I'm completely fine with that, even if many here will disagree with the call. But I'm not comfortable with a link from my server to a violent "joke" site. Anyone's free to get a weblog at blogspot and post it.
"rape's an act of violence, not sex" is a pat, simplistic viewpoint that has been pretty thoroughly discredited in modern psychology.
Really? Got anything to back that up? My friends that do counseling and teach it are the ones that told me that pat, simplistic answer.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:15 AM on November 5, 2004 [1 favorite]
My name is Wendell and I approve this deletion.
It was actually quite refreshing to see a deletion for a reason other than politics. The whole concept of rapehaikus.com is so offensive I chose not to even go there, and the comments of other MeFites reinforced my judgement. Refusing to provide a link to it is not the equivalent of censorship. And Matt is still the one-and-only moderator of this site.
If the Rape Haiku site turns into an internet meme, complete with arguements for and against from other places on the Web, that would make an appropriate multi-linked FPP. But Matt is not obligated to allow MeFi to jumpstart the meme.
mr crash showed very poor judgement, and Ryvar's wholehearted support for it is very creepy (to say the least). I am defintely NOT planning on attending any meetups where Ryvar shows up.
posted by wendell at 11:16 AM on November 5, 2004
It was actually quite refreshing to see a deletion for a reason other than politics. The whole concept of rapehaikus.com is so offensive I chose not to even go there, and the comments of other MeFites reinforced my judgement. Refusing to provide a link to it is not the equivalent of censorship. And Matt is still the one-and-only moderator of this site.
If the Rape Haiku site turns into an internet meme, complete with arguements for and against from other places on the Web, that would make an appropriate multi-linked FPP. But Matt is not obligated to allow MeFi to jumpstart the meme.
mr crash showed very poor judgement, and Ryvar's wholehearted support for it is very creepy (to say the least). I am defintely NOT planning on attending any meetups where Ryvar shows up.
posted by wendell at 11:16 AM on November 5, 2004
actual verbal violence
What the fuck does that mean? Are you comparing strident comments on a web site to rape? Is my use of the word "fuck" in my first sentence here "violent"?
posted by mr_roboto at 11:18 AM on November 5, 2004
What the fuck does that mean? Are you comparing strident comments on a web site to rape? Is my use of the word "fuck" in my first sentence here "violent"?
posted by mr_roboto at 11:18 AM on November 5, 2004
I don't think that the site was intended or contained haikus that were necessarily funny. The disgust felt at reading those is a good reminder at how gross the act is, even if the reminder isn't needed. If you don't need it, don't read it.
Sorry to repost these here, but to make my point I found these, in addition to several others quite meaningful.
You dumb fucking bitch!
You think you can turn me down?
Not when you're passed out.
Fucked against your will.
You can't believe this is real.
This is your new life.
Yes this site is incrediblly gross, but unfortunately this grossness is a part of our lives and the lives of those we care about. Looking at the issue in the face on such a intense and compact level such as a haiku allows for a level of communication that I don't think is very easily achieved.
pwb.
posted by pwb503 at 11:20 AM on November 5, 2004
Sorry to repost these here, but to make my point I found these, in addition to several others quite meaningful.
You dumb fucking bitch!
You think you can turn me down?
Not when you're passed out.
Fucked against your will.
You can't believe this is real.
This is your new life.
Yes this site is incrediblly gross, but unfortunately this grossness is a part of our lives and the lives of those we care about. Looking at the issue in the face on such a intense and compact level such as a haiku allows for a level of communication that I don't think is very easily achieved.
pwb.
posted by pwb503 at 11:20 AM on November 5, 2004
When I first saw it on the blue I didn't bother with it - I trust crash but I was pretty sure what kind of thread would be in there. Following the callout I figured I'd go take a look.
One female member does not a chorus make - but no, I did not find it hilarious.
I wouldn't have called out for the deletion cause I don't really give a rat's ass, but I'm sure as hell not going to say the deletion was a bad idea. If metafilter were on my server I wouldn't want it linking to that site either.
posted by Salmonberry at 11:22 AM on November 5, 2004
One female member does not a chorus make - but no, I did not find it hilarious.
I wouldn't have called out for the deletion cause I don't really give a rat's ass, but I'm sure as hell not going to say the deletion was a bad idea. If metafilter were on my server I wouldn't want it linking to that site either.
posted by Salmonberry at 11:22 AM on November 5, 2004
So, let me get this straight, so we can be absolutely 100% certain from this point forward about what is acceptable to post.
Thumbnailed Goatse is OK.
Text HAIKUS about rape are not?
You don't see anything that even remotely resembles inconsistency in your decisions regarding post deletion?
I am defintely NOT planning on attending any meetups where Ryvar shows up.
Thanks, Wendell, I'm glad to see you're not reactionary and quick to judge - will you be avoiding my wife as well?
posted by Ryvar at 11:22 AM on November 5, 2004
Thumbnailed Goatse is OK.
Text HAIKUS about rape are not?
You don't see anything that even remotely resembles inconsistency in your decisions regarding post deletion?
I am defintely NOT planning on attending any meetups where Ryvar shows up.
Thanks, Wendell, I'm glad to see you're not reactionary and quick to judge - will you be avoiding my wife as well?
posted by Ryvar at 11:22 AM on November 5, 2004
Looking at the issue in the face on such a intense and compact level such as a haiku allows for a level of communication that I don't think is very easily achieved.
You have got to be kidding.
posted by soyjoy at 11:23 AM on November 5, 2004
You have got to be kidding.
posted by soyjoy at 11:23 AM on November 5, 2004
Looking at the issue in the face on such a intense and compact level
very easily achieved.
posted by soyjoy at 11:25 AM on November 5, 2004
very easily achieved.
posted by soyjoy at 11:25 AM on November 5, 2004
I haven't read the site, but get the impression of what it's about from what's been posted in this thread. It doesn't sound hilarious or even amusing or educational or anything but sick and violent, even if it is just text. If it's enough to make Matt uncomfortable, after all the other weird ass shit that's been posted on this site, it must be pretty damned unpleasant.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:39 AM on November 5, 2004
posted by jacquilynne at 11:39 AM on November 5, 2004
"mr crash showed very poor judgement"
Did I? Given that you know absolutely nothing about why I posted the link, that's a pretty bold statement.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:45 AM on November 5, 2004
Did I? Given that you know absolutely nothing about why I posted the link, that's a pretty bold statement.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:45 AM on November 5, 2004
it had the potential to offer varied perspectives
Like what, Ryvar? Seriously, as Matt has said, please give us a sampling of the "varied perspectives" you think would come out of a discussion of the site.
You don't see anything that even remotely resembles inconsistency in your decisions regarding post deletion?
You don't see anything that even remotely resembles ignorance by your comparing a riff on a guy voluntarily pulling his asshole open and showing it to the world with jokes about women being violated?
And while we're at it, I'd love to know how mr_crash_davis found the site in the first place. Googling for "rape haikus" all I've found is the beta version and a user-submitted link on April Winchell's site. The other mentions link to a Something Awful thread from July of this year. rapehaiku.com was registered six days ago.
posted by lia at 11:47 AM on November 5, 2004
Like what, Ryvar? Seriously, as Matt has said, please give us a sampling of the "varied perspectives" you think would come out of a discussion of the site.
You don't see anything that even remotely resembles inconsistency in your decisions regarding post deletion?
You don't see anything that even remotely resembles ignorance by your comparing a riff on a guy voluntarily pulling his asshole open and showing it to the world with jokes about women being violated?
And while we're at it, I'd love to know how mr_crash_davis found the site in the first place. Googling for "rape haikus" all I've found is the beta version and a user-submitted link on April Winchell's site. The other mentions link to a Something Awful thread from July of this year. rapehaiku.com was registered six days ago.
posted by lia at 11:47 AM on November 5, 2004
Thanks, Wendell, I'm glad to see you're not reactionary and quick to judge - will you be avoiding my wife as well?
I'm curious. Did your wife think that the site was "hilarious," too?
posted by anapestic at 11:50 AM on November 5, 2004
I'm curious. Did your wife think that the site was "hilarious," too?
posted by anapestic at 11:50 AM on November 5, 2004
They weren't even good haiku. Half the time "fucking" is used just to fill out the requisite syllable count.
I agree with Salmonberry and jacquilynne, so that's at least a trio. I want the alto part.
posted by casarkos at 11:52 AM on November 5, 2004
I agree with Salmonberry and jacquilynne, so that's at least a trio. I want the alto part.
posted by casarkos at 11:52 AM on November 5, 2004
Torture is also an act of violence, but we don't seem to be deleting jokes about that. What am I missing?
posted by brownpau at 11:53 AM on November 5, 2004
posted by brownpau at 11:53 AM on November 5, 2004
"...I'd love to know how mr_crash_davis found the site in the first place..."
Much like Bob Novak, I never reveal my sources.
You can rest assured, however, that I was not searching for anything to do with haikus or rape, so I am clearly not a monster.
Or a potential rapist.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:55 AM on November 5, 2004
Much like Bob Novak, I never reveal my sources.
You can rest assured, however, that I was not searching for anything to do with haikus or rape, so I am clearly not a monster.
Or a potential rapist.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:55 AM on November 5, 2004
I'm glad the post is gone. I can't even fathom the person who authored that garbage being anything other than a horrid individual.
posted by GeekAnimator at 11:55 AM on November 5, 2004
posted by GeekAnimator at 11:55 AM on November 5, 2004
Hot-button topics like this have to be presented in a certain way if you don't want to automatically repulse people. People who have been through rape or know someone who has (or have other reasons for reacting viscerally to a site like this) are going to have a real hard time seeing past the brutality of the imagery.
I'm not saying there's no place for literature or art about rape, or lynching (I remember a really excellent gallery posted here a couple of years ago with a series of lynching photos that seemed quite relevant, and no less graphic for that) or any other serious and beyond-the-pale-of-civilization issue. What I am saying is that the haiku form in itself isn't enough to justify an otherwise unbridled stream of hate with no other point.
(Not to mention that a proper haiku is not just 5/7/5, but requires some nature imagery and some other restrictions on form, none of which were followed in any of the examples on that site.)
One other thing. Matt has made no attempt at fairness in tempering his judgement in running the place, and that too is how it should be. Metafilter is an extension of his personality as much as it is the work of any of us, and bitching at him about how he runs this place is counterproductive at best and pouring shit down a hole at worst.
posted by chicobangs at 11:57 AM on November 5, 2004
I'm not saying there's no place for literature or art about rape, or lynching (I remember a really excellent gallery posted here a couple of years ago with a series of lynching photos that seemed quite relevant, and no less graphic for that) or any other serious and beyond-the-pale-of-civilization issue. What I am saying is that the haiku form in itself isn't enough to justify an otherwise unbridled stream of hate with no other point.
(Not to mention that a proper haiku is not just 5/7/5, but requires some nature imagery and some other restrictions on form, none of which were followed in any of the examples on that site.)
One other thing. Matt has made no attempt at fairness in tempering his judgement in running the place, and that too is how it should be. Metafilter is an extension of his personality as much as it is the work of any of us, and bitching at him about how he runs this place is counterproductive at best and pouring shit down a hole at worst.
posted by chicobangs at 11:57 AM on November 5, 2004
it had the potential to offer varied perspectives
Like what, Ryvar? Seriously, as Matt has said, please give us a sampling of the "varied perspectives" you think would come out of a discussion of the site.
Well for starters, I didn't say that - rushmc did. But let's not let petty differences like facts get in the way of your outrage at me! Personally, I just think it's really funny. It's haikus a sure-fire geek humor stable, about rape. It's no different than dead-baby jokes ("what do you call a dead baby in a blender?", etc.). They're just words, people - the moment you start to feel uncomfortable you hit a button and they're gone, it's not like images of goatse where the full horror is unveiled the millisecond you click the link and you have no chance of ever removing even part of it from your memory.
You don't see anything that even remotely resembles ignorance by your comparing a riff on a guy voluntarily pulling his asshole open and showing it to the world with jokes about women being violated?
If I thought that was the case, I suppose it might be ignorant - but Tryt goatse'd the entire forum. There wasn't a 'riff on a guy pulling his asshole open.' He posted hideously obscene content and his post wasn't removed. This is content which at least attempts to be funny for some people, and it was pulled. Color me strange, but I see the former, especially because of the immediacy of images, as far worse than the latter. You can stop reading things in mid-sentence. You can't look away from goatseat all mid-image.
Torture is also an act of violence, but we don't seem to be deleting jokes about that. What am I missing?
Exactly. There appears to be a bit of a double-standard here that I just don't get.
I'm curious. Did your wife think that the site was "hilarious," too?
She's at work right now, so I won't speak for her - but I met her in an IRC channel where rape and forced sodomy humor was probably every other or every third line of text, so if I had to guess I'd say she'd find it pretty fucking uproarious.
posted by Ryvar at 11:59 AM on November 5, 2004
Like what, Ryvar? Seriously, as Matt has said, please give us a sampling of the "varied perspectives" you think would come out of a discussion of the site.
Well for starters, I didn't say that - rushmc did. But let's not let petty differences like facts get in the way of your outrage at me! Personally, I just think it's really funny. It's haikus a sure-fire geek humor stable, about rape. It's no different than dead-baby jokes ("what do you call a dead baby in a blender?", etc.). They're just words, people - the moment you start to feel uncomfortable you hit a button and they're gone, it's not like images of goatse where the full horror is unveiled the millisecond you click the link and you have no chance of ever removing even part of it from your memory.
You don't see anything that even remotely resembles ignorance by your comparing a riff on a guy voluntarily pulling his asshole open and showing it to the world with jokes about women being violated?
If I thought that was the case, I suppose it might be ignorant - but Tryt goatse'd the entire forum. There wasn't a 'riff on a guy pulling his asshole open.' He posted hideously obscene content and his post wasn't removed. This is content which at least attempts to be funny for some people, and it was pulled. Color me strange, but I see the former, especially because of the immediacy of images, as far worse than the latter. You can stop reading things in mid-sentence. You can't look away from goatse
Torture is also an act of violence, but we don't seem to be deleting jokes about that. What am I missing?
Exactly. There appears to be a bit of a double-standard here that I just don't get.
I'm curious. Did your wife think that the site was "hilarious," too?
She's at work right now, so I won't speak for her - but I met her in an IRC channel where rape and forced sodomy humor was probably every other or every third line of text, so if I had to guess I'd say she'd find it pretty fucking uproarious.
posted by Ryvar at 11:59 AM on November 5, 2004
>> Looking at the issue in the face on such a intense and compact level such as a haiku allows for a level of communication that I don't think is very easily achieved.
You have got to be kidding.
Why? I think that comment is dead on. It doesn't make rape and violence less abhorrent -- it doesn't in any way excuse the subject matter -- but it does amount to an examination of the power and, I dunno, essential meaning of the subject.
Things can be offensive and still have the merit of being striking and thought-provoking. (Which is not to say that these haikus were as a body of work worth defending.)
posted by cortex at 12:03 PM on November 5, 2004
You have got to be kidding.
Why? I think that comment is dead on. It doesn't make rape and violence less abhorrent -- it doesn't in any way excuse the subject matter -- but it does amount to an examination of the power and, I dunno, essential meaning of the subject.
Things can be offensive and still have the merit of being striking and thought-provoking. (Which is not to say that these haikus were as a body of work worth defending.)
posted by cortex at 12:03 PM on November 5, 2004
I can live with the link not being there anymore.
posted by Blue Stone at 12:09 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by Blue Stone at 12:09 PM on November 5, 2004
Wow. The site is vile and it advocates for profoundly violent rape. I'm surprised that crash posted it. Hilarious? Really? I found it deeply disturbing and pschopathic. Interested Mefites may wish to communicate with the site owner.
from the about page:
We don't ask about you so don't ask about us.
©2004 Poo Partners
administrator@rapehaikus.com
rapehaiku.com resolves to stepintomyoffice.com The Whois data is essentially the same for both domain names. I have consolidated the information below.
Organization, Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Rodney Munch
Rodney Munch
11801 Fair Oaks Blvd.
Fair Oaks, CA 95628
US
Phone: 9167167142
Email: douglas.bell@gmail.com
Registrar Name....: Register.com
Domain Name: RAPEHAIKU.COM
Created on..............: Sat, Oct 30, 2004
Expires on..............: Sun, Oct 30, 2005
Record last updated on..: Sat, Oct 30, 2004
Domain Name: STEPINTOMYOFFICE.COM
Created on..............: Tue, Nov 11, 2003
Expires on..............: Fri, Nov 11, 2005
Record last updated on..: Sat, Oct 30, 2004
On preview, so why did you post it, Crash?
posted by theora55 at 12:13 PM on November 5, 2004
from the about page:
We don't ask about you so don't ask about us.
©2004 Poo Partners
administrator@rapehaikus.com
rapehaiku.com resolves to stepintomyoffice.com The Whois data is essentially the same for both domain names. I have consolidated the information below.
Organization, Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Rodney Munch
Rodney Munch
11801 Fair Oaks Blvd.
Fair Oaks, CA 95628
US
Phone: 9167167142
Email: douglas.bell@gmail.com
Registrar Name....: Register.com
Domain Name: RAPEHAIKU.COM
Created on..............: Sat, Oct 30, 2004
Expires on..............: Sun, Oct 30, 2005
Record last updated on..: Sat, Oct 30, 2004
Domain Name: STEPINTOMYOFFICE.COM
Created on..............: Tue, Nov 11, 2003
Expires on..............: Fri, Nov 11, 2005
Record last updated on..: Sat, Oct 30, 2004
On preview, so why did you post it, Crash?
posted by theora55 at 12:13 PM on November 5, 2004
Much like Bob Novak, I never reveal my sources.
So Karl Rove gave you that link?
You can rest assured, however, that I was not searching for anything to do with haikus or rape, so I am clearly not a monster.
To clarify, I know very well you weren't and aren't.
I've spent enough time on #mefi to know you have a skill at finding truly weird shit on the web, but that one should've stayed at #mefi. (I wonder if it was even too much for quonsar's blort-blog, where you recently posted the site for a 'sniper school').
Ryvar, don't try to say that being married means you have a healthy attitude toward women, becuase I've met many men (and am related to a couple) for whom that just ain't true. On preview: I'll let your last comment speak for itself... I'd much rather hang out at MonkeyFilter than an IRC like that.
That said, I will allow the rest of you to have the last word, unless somebody comes up with something that really burns my ass, which is highly unlikely. (Geez... is that the wordiest way to say "Bring 'em on", or what?}
posted by wendell at 12:15 PM on November 5, 2004
So Karl Rove gave you that link?
You can rest assured, however, that I was not searching for anything to do with haikus or rape, so I am clearly not a monster.
To clarify, I know very well you weren't and aren't.
I've spent enough time on #mefi to know you have a skill at finding truly weird shit on the web, but that one should've stayed at #mefi. (I wonder if it was even too much for quonsar's blort-blog, where you recently posted the site for a 'sniper school').
Ryvar, don't try to say that being married means you have a healthy attitude toward women, becuase I've met many men (and am related to a couple) for whom that just ain't true. On preview: I'll let your last comment speak for itself... I'd much rather hang out at MonkeyFilter than an IRC like that.
That said, I will allow the rest of you to have the last word, unless somebody comes up with something that really burns my ass, which is highly unlikely. (Geez... is that the wordiest way to say "Bring 'em on", or what?}
posted by wendell at 12:15 PM on November 5, 2004
Did I? Given that you know absolutely nothing about why I posted the link, that's a pretty bold statement.
One of the many reasons I can't stand links without context. If you found it best of the web why not explain why? In fact, it seems that simply doing so would have helped quell the fire. I certainly agree with Matt on this one, but I could also see how a well-crafted post (and not some lame text link) could have framed the site so it could be discussed.
Rape Haikus is art?
What about your mom or sis?
Rape is violence, not sex
At least then people could discuss the site as art or not. Again, I agree with Matt. The FPP is shite, the site is shite and rape is violence, not sex, no matter what format it takes.
posted by terrapin at 12:19 PM on November 5, 2004
One of the many reasons I can't stand links without context. If you found it best of the web why not explain why? In fact, it seems that simply doing so would have helped quell the fire. I certainly agree with Matt on this one, but I could also see how a well-crafted post (and not some lame text link) could have framed the site so it could be discussed.
Rape Haikus is art?
What about your mom or sis?
Rape is violence, not sex
At least then people could discuss the site as art or not. Again, I agree with Matt. The FPP is shite, the site is shite and rape is violence, not sex, no matter what format it takes.
posted by terrapin at 12:19 PM on November 5, 2004
I've already stated that I don't find violence against women funny.
There are haikus dealing with male rape there also.
I have a pretty dark sense of humour but I can't say I find the site to be funny. Not great quality but some did strike a chord and provide alternative perspectives. Do they try to vindicate rape? I don't think so. But they do try to examine rape from a relatively different perspective and the attempt to do so is an interesting one, regardless of the quality it engenders. Matt: Deletion due to not finding it funny is a negative step I think. Deletion because you're uncomfortable with having it linked from your site (and I appreciate that it is you who has their name on it at the end of the day) is fairer but let us all know if that's part of the deal now.
Being disturbed by an idea isn't necessarily a totally bad thing.
posted by biffa at 12:20 PM on November 5, 2004
There are haikus dealing with male rape there also.
I have a pretty dark sense of humour but I can't say I find the site to be funny. Not great quality but some did strike a chord and provide alternative perspectives. Do they try to vindicate rape? I don't think so. But they do try to examine rape from a relatively different perspective and the attempt to do so is an interesting one, regardless of the quality it engenders. Matt: Deletion due to not finding it funny is a negative step I think. Deletion because you're uncomfortable with having it linked from your site (and I appreciate that it is you who has their name on it at the end of the day) is fairer but let us all know if that's part of the deal now.
Being disturbed by an idea isn't necessarily a totally bad thing.
posted by biffa at 12:20 PM on November 5, 2004
"On preview, so why did you post it, Crash?"
A good post to MetaFilter is something that meets the following criteria: most people haven't seen it before, there is something interesting about the content on the page, and it might warrant discussion from others.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:21 PM on November 5, 2004
A good post to MetaFilter is something that meets the following criteria: most people haven't seen it before, there is something interesting about the content on the page, and it might warrant discussion from others.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:21 PM on November 5, 2004
Matt has made no attempt at fairness in tempering his judgement in running the place, and that too is how it should be. Metafilter is an extension of his personality as much as it is the work of any of us, and bitching at him about how he runs this place is counterproductive at best and pouring shit down a hole at worst.
I agree with chicobangs. I completely support Matt deleting absolutely anything he chooses, especially nowadays when absolutely anyone can start their own weblog and post whatever they want on it.
posted by timeistight at 12:25 PM on November 5, 2004
I agree with chicobangs. I completely support Matt deleting absolutely anything he chooses, especially nowadays when absolutely anyone can start their own weblog and post whatever they want on it.
posted by timeistight at 12:25 PM on November 5, 2004
creepy, creepy, creepy stuff.
difficult call, but I agree with Haughey.
posted by matteo at 12:25 PM on November 5, 2004
difficult call, but I agree with Haughey.
posted by matteo at 12:25 PM on November 5, 2004
Haikus were not meant for a subject such as that.
Some of us have experienced involuntary sex. I doubt any of us would have felt inspired to write a haiku about it. I KNOW none of us would care to read a haiku from a perpetrator's point of view.
posted by konolia at 12:26 PM on November 5, 2004
Some of us have experienced involuntary sex. I doubt any of us would have felt inspired to write a haiku about it. I KNOW none of us would care to read a haiku from a perpetrator's point of view.
posted by konolia at 12:26 PM on November 5, 2004
those haikus are not worth arguing over. 100% abhorrent, 0% clever. of course it should be legal to say anything you want, but this post doesn't rise to the community's standards.
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 12:27 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 12:27 PM on November 5, 2004
There's more to humour than shock value. I won't miss that link.
posted by Krrrlson at 12:30 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by Krrrlson at 12:30 PM on November 5, 2004
Maybe you should go back to IRC and laugh it up.
I certainly don't mean to detract from how good writing that must have made you feel about yourself, but I think you'd find that if you payed closer attention to this thread it's obvious that this kind of humor is no stranger here at Metafilter. The nature of my complaint is more with the arbitrary nature of enforcement than anything else.
In closing:
A link to the Goatse.cx image: not deleted.
Torture is also an act of violence, but we don't seem to be deleting jokes about that. What am I missing?
I'd also like to add: Aristocrats link, a joke which included incestuous pedophilic forced sodomy: not deleted.
Stack all that up against some clearly-labeled pure-text haiku jokes (albeit deeply offensive ones) about rape, which WAS deleted, and I have difficulty seeing how anyone can say there isn't extremely arbitrary enforcement going on here. It's Matt's site to do with as he pleases, quite obviously, but that doesn't mean that users like myself can't request less or at least more consistently implemented editing when it occurs for the sake of morality.
Also, Wendell, while I think it's healthy for one to go around concluding based on little evidence that other people are rapists at least in spirit, as you've done here to me - perhaps you would allow me to momentarily adopt the poor practice of advising my elders and suggest you take things a touch less seriously?
posted by Ryvar at 12:36 PM on November 5, 2004
I certainly don't mean to detract from how good writing that must have made you feel about yourself, but I think you'd find that if you payed closer attention to this thread it's obvious that this kind of humor is no stranger here at Metafilter. The nature of my complaint is more with the arbitrary nature of enforcement than anything else.
In closing:
A link to the Goatse.cx image: not deleted.
Torture is also an act of violence, but we don't seem to be deleting jokes about that. What am I missing?
I'd also like to add: Aristocrats link, a joke which included incestuous pedophilic forced sodomy: not deleted.
Stack all that up against some clearly-labeled pure-text haiku jokes (albeit deeply offensive ones) about rape, which WAS deleted, and I have difficulty seeing how anyone can say there isn't extremely arbitrary enforcement going on here. It's Matt's site to do with as he pleases, quite obviously, but that doesn't mean that users like myself can't request less or at least more consistently implemented editing when it occurs for the sake of morality.
Also, Wendell, while I think it's healthy for one to go around concluding based on little evidence that other people are rapists at least in spirit, as you've done here to me - perhaps you would allow me to momentarily adopt the poor practice of advising my elders and suggest you take things a touch less seriously?
posted by Ryvar at 12:36 PM on November 5, 2004
I completely support Matt deleting absolutely anything he chooses, especially nowadays when absolutely anyone can start their own weblog and post whatever they want on it.
Can I get an Amen?
posted by lbergstr at 12:37 PM on November 5, 2004
Can I get an Amen?
posted by lbergstr at 12:37 PM on November 5, 2004
The *only* thing that matters here was that Matt found it distasteful, and didn't want it on *his* site. That is all. As much as we like to be assured that this is *our* site, that our contributions won't go wasted, it's not out site. Matt just happens to play nicely, 99.9999% of the time it seems.
To use this piece of distasteful junk as a dead albatross to point out "Ooo! Look, mathowie is biased, and arbitrarily deleting things!" is pretty damn stupid, petty, and counterproductive. Especially considering the records show how infrequent it is that he deletes things, and how many things that survive that many would consider highly offensive.
If I was running this site as my own sandbox, I'd have deleted way more posts and banned a bunch of you scurvy bastard filthdogs ages ago. Count your blessings, or start walking that plank. Arrr.
posted by loquacious at 12:39 PM on November 5, 2004
To use this piece of distasteful junk as a dead albatross to point out "Ooo! Look, mathowie is biased, and arbitrarily deleting things!" is pretty damn stupid, petty, and counterproductive. Especially considering the records show how infrequent it is that he deletes things, and how many things that survive that many would consider highly offensive.
If I was running this site as my own sandbox, I'd have deleted way more posts and banned a bunch of you scurvy bastard filthdogs ages ago. Count your blessings, or start walking that plank. Arrr.
posted by loquacious at 12:39 PM on November 5, 2004
an examination of the power and, I dunno, essential meaning of the subject.
posted by soyjoy at 12:40 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by soyjoy at 12:40 PM on November 5, 2004
And, yeah, I read the Haikus. They sucked the stinky post-mortem bungjuice off of a long-deceased skunk. If they had actually had been clever, balanced, artistic, illuminative or otherwise anything other than the microfractionally-assed attempts of the totally uninformed, they might have had something.
English haiku is a terrible bastardization, anyway, and is difficult to do well.
posted by loquacious at 12:45 PM on November 5, 2004
English haiku is a terrible bastardization, anyway, and is difficult to do well.
posted by loquacious at 12:45 PM on November 5, 2004
I support Matt's decision. The site makes me upset in ways that I can't express without sounding like a shrill woman shrieking PENIS BAD! Or saying something snarky like of course men would find it funny as most rapes are by men against women. I'd like to see a victim, or someone raised to be aware that this is a real danger at any point in their life, to look at those so-called poems and find any kind of humor in them.
Right. Metafilter isn't a boyzone? Phfft.
posted by FunkyHelix at 12:45 PM on November 5, 2004
Right. Metafilter isn't a boyzone? Phfft.
posted by FunkyHelix at 12:45 PM on November 5, 2004
ROFL
posted by angry modem at 12:49 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by angry modem at 12:49 PM on November 5, 2004
I'd like to see a victim, or someone raised to be aware that this is a real danger at any point in their life, to look at those so-called poems and find any kind of humor in them.
I don't think X is funny, therefore it isn't.
I'm not supporting rape poems here, I just think that's a pretty weak argument.
posted by esch at 12:50 PM on November 5, 2004
I don't think X is funny, therefore it isn't.
I'm not supporting rape poems here, I just think that's a pretty weak argument.
posted by esch at 12:50 PM on November 5, 2004
Also, Wendell, while I think it's healthy for one to go around concluding based on little evidence that other people are rapists at least in spirit,
I don't think he suggested you were a rapist. I think he suggested you have little insight or sensitivity to the issue, especially from a victim's pov. You bringing your wife into the thread was a poor attempt at justifying your lack of outrage (or, as you say, you're ability to not take things so seriously). Wendell just called you on it.
posted by dobbs at 12:52 PM on November 5, 2004
I don't think he suggested you were a rapist. I think he suggested you have little insight or sensitivity to the issue, especially from a victim's pov. You bringing your wife into the thread was a poor attempt at justifying your lack of outrage (or, as you say, you're ability to not take things so seriously). Wendell just called you on it.
posted by dobbs at 12:52 PM on November 5, 2004
MetaTalk: My special toilet.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 12:53 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 12:53 PM on November 5, 2004
"On preview, so why did you post it, Crash?"
A good post to MetaFilter is something that meets the following criteria: most people haven't seen it before, there is something interesting about the content on the page, and it might warrant discussion from others.
I think the "quality" and "use good judgement" parts are implicit.
There's endless amounts of crap on the Internet most of which we haven't seen. This site is not "interesting" in any way except as a mild shock site which is the lowest level of novelty.
posted by vacapinta at 12:56 PM on November 5, 2004
A good post to MetaFilter is something that meets the following criteria: most people haven't seen it before, there is something interesting about the content on the page, and it might warrant discussion from others.
I think the "quality" and "use good judgement" parts are implicit.
There's endless amounts of crap on the Internet most of which we haven't seen. This site is not "interesting" in any way except as a mild shock site which is the lowest level of novelty.
posted by vacapinta at 12:56 PM on November 5, 2004
Ryvar, they really could use you in those prisons over in Iraq. Have you considered putting your strong opinions to use in serving your country?
posted by euphorb at 12:58 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by euphorb at 12:58 PM on November 5, 2004
I'm all for black humor, the blackest. But a key to black humor is the humor. This was just stupid, and we can all chuckle at the deconstructionist shock value but that doesn't mean there isn't someone really creepy out there getting off on it. And if I was Matt, I'd want to part of it either. Eww.
posted by JoanArkham at 12:59 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by JoanArkham at 12:59 PM on November 5, 2004
If the post in question is bad (and most of us think it was), it doesn't really matter that you can find other posts that were as bad or worse but that somehow escaped deletion. Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, and an unreasonable expectation around here. But it's good to know that you're so good at tracking down offensive material. Only one person deletes posts around here, and he can't catch everything. Now that you're on the case, I'm sure you'll be letting him know about all of the offensive posts, and there will be even fewer of them.
posted by anapestic at 1:02 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by anapestic at 1:02 PM on November 5, 2004
I think he suggested you have little insight or sensitivity to the issue, especially from a victim's pov.
I see. So the part where he treated me like some kind of social leper because I'm a free speech absolutist isn't his way of implying I'm a rapist in spirit. While that's a very interesting interpretation, I think you might be trying to explain away a critical misstep by someone you support by stepping in and putting words in his mouth, rather than looking at the situation objectively - but that's just by own biased assessment.
Or, in haiku:
Covering his ass?
The intent was obvious.
"Ryvar loves the rape!"
You bringing your wife into the thread was a poor attempt at justifying your lack of outrage (or, as you say, you're ability to not take things so seriously). Wendell just called you on it.
My bringing my wife into the thread was a necessary way of establishing that I am not, contrary to Wendell's implication, a creepy rape-supporter, but rather someone who can and has formed a normal, healthy, long-term relationship with a woman (several, actually, historically - but let's focus on the present). It would be deeply intellectually dishonest of you to deny that wendell was attempting to call this into question, and that others here weren't hinting at it, or worse - as euphorb just compared me to a torture apologist.
Again, in haiku:
Wendell calls bullshit?
Get your dick out of my mouth.
Jumping conclusions.
posted by Ryvar at 1:09 PM on November 5, 2004
I see. So the part where he treated me like some kind of social leper because I'm a free speech absolutist isn't his way of implying I'm a rapist in spirit. While that's a very interesting interpretation, I think you might be trying to explain away a critical misstep by someone you support by stepping in and putting words in his mouth, rather than looking at the situation objectively - but that's just by own biased assessment.
Or, in haiku:
Covering his ass?
The intent was obvious.
"Ryvar loves the rape!"
You bringing your wife into the thread was a poor attempt at justifying your lack of outrage (or, as you say, you're ability to not take things so seriously). Wendell just called you on it.
My bringing my wife into the thread was a necessary way of establishing that I am not, contrary to Wendell's implication, a creepy rape-supporter, but rather someone who can and has formed a normal, healthy, long-term relationship with a woman (several, actually, historically - but let's focus on the present). It would be deeply intellectually dishonest of you to deny that wendell was attempting to call this into question, and that others here weren't hinting at it, or worse - as euphorb just compared me to a torture apologist.
Again, in haiku:
Wendell calls bullshit?
Get your dick out of my mouth.
Jumping conclusions.
posted by Ryvar at 1:09 PM on November 5, 2004
Now those haikus? Hysterical. My point is you don't seem able to tell the difference.
posted by FunkyHelix at 1:14 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by FunkyHelix at 1:14 PM on November 5, 2004
I read the first few haikus on the page, and read the ones quoted here.
None of these appear to be anything at all like dead baby jokes. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are advocating rape, but they suspiciously seem to be a sublimation of the desire to actually rape. And dead baby jokes are not a sublimated desire to kill babies (or to whatever dead babies).
I am utterly, numbingly astonished that Ryvar would compare these haikus with thumbnails of goatse. Wow. That says some really, really bad things about Ryvar.
I've mentioned before that I've volunteered as an advocate at a large rape crisis center and have training and experience with dealing with rape victims. Violence against women is very real, epidemic, and many men don't realize this. I've said this before, but I'll repeat it: during the time that I was an advocate, and afterwards when women that I knew found out I had been a rape crisis advocate, I had an incredible number of women disclose to me that they've been the victims of one form or another of sexual violence. The majority of women I'm closest to—family, etc.—have been victims of sexual violence. In many cases, I'm the only person they've ever disclosed to about it.
So this isn't fucking funny to a very large portion of the population and mefi's readership. It's not funny. If you think it's funny, you're either ignorant, or an asshole, or both.
To Matt's claim that rape is violence and not sex. This has to be put into context. Until very recently, rape was seen by almost all cultures as being only about sex and not at all about violence. And because it was seen that way, very often the onus has been on women to demonstrate that they didn't "goad" a man into losing control of himself. Starting a few decades ago, with the women's movement and the rape crisis movement and the reformation of rape laws, this issue was closely examined and it became obvious that rape was very much about violence and not sex. There's all sorts of things that indicate this: one example is that perhaps half of all rapists don't manage to ejaculate. Another example is that there's not a strong correlation to perceived physical attractiveness and rape victims. There is, on the other hand, a strong correlation to rape victims and other victims selected as victims of a certain kind of rage-filled physical violence.
That said, when I was at the rape crisis center, in a private discussion with the staff and other advocates and counselors, there was agreement that it is obvious that to some degree rape is a sexual act. I mean, of course it is. My working definition of rape is that it is an act of violence expressed sexually. And there's a reason that it's expressed sexually and not otherwise, and that's the part that definitely has a sexual component. How much of that component is sexual desire? I don't know. It probably varies. It's pretty well understood that sex and violence are pretty closely related in human psychology. I think that it's pretty easy for people to grow up in bad environments where they confuse the two and, thus, it becomes the natural path for them to express their need to commit violence. Especially when their pathology involves anger or resentment of women, which is common.
Rape of men by other men in many cases has a very definite overwhelmingly violent component. It's quite obviously used in prisons, for example, to establish dominance. And there is rape of men by women, though the numbers are relatively small. But it does exist.
Anyway, the statement "rape is an act of violence, not sex" is essentially true. It's not completely true, but it's true enough, especially in the context of a culture that has traditionally asserted its opposite.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:19 PM on November 5, 2004 [1 favorite]
None of these appear to be anything at all like dead baby jokes. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are advocating rape, but they suspiciously seem to be a sublimation of the desire to actually rape. And dead baby jokes are not a sublimated desire to kill babies (or to whatever dead babies).
I am utterly, numbingly astonished that Ryvar would compare these haikus with thumbnails of goatse. Wow. That says some really, really bad things about Ryvar.
I've mentioned before that I've volunteered as an advocate at a large rape crisis center and have training and experience with dealing with rape victims. Violence against women is very real, epidemic, and many men don't realize this. I've said this before, but I'll repeat it: during the time that I was an advocate, and afterwards when women that I knew found out I had been a rape crisis advocate, I had an incredible number of women disclose to me that they've been the victims of one form or another of sexual violence. The majority of women I'm closest to—family, etc.—have been victims of sexual violence. In many cases, I'm the only person they've ever disclosed to about it.
So this isn't fucking funny to a very large portion of the population and mefi's readership. It's not funny. If you think it's funny, you're either ignorant, or an asshole, or both.
To Matt's claim that rape is violence and not sex. This has to be put into context. Until very recently, rape was seen by almost all cultures as being only about sex and not at all about violence. And because it was seen that way, very often the onus has been on women to demonstrate that they didn't "goad" a man into losing control of himself. Starting a few decades ago, with the women's movement and the rape crisis movement and the reformation of rape laws, this issue was closely examined and it became obvious that rape was very much about violence and not sex. There's all sorts of things that indicate this: one example is that perhaps half of all rapists don't manage to ejaculate. Another example is that there's not a strong correlation to perceived physical attractiveness and rape victims. There is, on the other hand, a strong correlation to rape victims and other victims selected as victims of a certain kind of rage-filled physical violence.
That said, when I was at the rape crisis center, in a private discussion with the staff and other advocates and counselors, there was agreement that it is obvious that to some degree rape is a sexual act. I mean, of course it is. My working definition of rape is that it is an act of violence expressed sexually. And there's a reason that it's expressed sexually and not otherwise, and that's the part that definitely has a sexual component. How much of that component is sexual desire? I don't know. It probably varies. It's pretty well understood that sex and violence are pretty closely related in human psychology. I think that it's pretty easy for people to grow up in bad environments where they confuse the two and, thus, it becomes the natural path for them to express their need to commit violence. Especially when their pathology involves anger or resentment of women, which is common.
Rape of men by other men in many cases has a very definite overwhelmingly violent component. It's quite obviously used in prisons, for example, to establish dominance. And there is rape of men by women, though the numbers are relatively small. But it does exist.
Anyway, the statement "rape is an act of violence, not sex" is essentially true. It's not completely true, but it's true enough, especially in the context of a culture that has traditionally asserted its opposite.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:19 PM on November 5, 2004 [1 favorite]
I completely support people's right to free speech as it regards calling into question Ryvar's motives for supporting hate speech against women.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:21 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:21 PM on November 5, 2004
I completely support people's right to free speech as it regards calling into question Ryvar's motives for supporting hate speech against women.
That's all very well and good, EB, except you'll notice the haikus attack both genders - and adults and children alike.
Oops.
posted by Ryvar at 1:25 PM on November 5, 2004
That's all very well and good, EB, except you'll notice the haikus attack both genders - and adults and children alike.
Oops.
posted by Ryvar at 1:25 PM on November 5, 2004
EB posts very long.
Ryvar is a bad, bad man.
Does that sum it up?
posted by esch at 1:27 PM on November 5, 2004
Ryvar is a bad, bad man.
Does that sum it up?
posted by esch at 1:27 PM on November 5, 2004
soyjoy: I caught that the first time. You don't like rape haikus. Yes. I'm not disagreeing with you, even.
I just don't like the "look away! look away!" reaction that seems to bubble up when people try to actually talk about the merits of unlikeable things.
Remember all the bile and rage directed at Stockhausen after the 9/11 attacks, because he dared to describe the vision of planes destroying the WTC towers in terms of art? As if by admitting that you can examine something for meaning, that something has an arresting or captivating aspect to it, you're declaring that it's Okee-Dokee and suddenly not bad at all. Which is fucking ridiculous.
Sometimes bad things should be looked at, is all.
posted by cortex at 1:32 PM on November 5, 2004
I just don't like the "look away! look away!" reaction that seems to bubble up when people try to actually talk about the merits of unlikeable things.
Remember all the bile and rage directed at Stockhausen after the 9/11 attacks, because he dared to describe the vision of planes destroying the WTC towers in terms of art? As if by admitting that you can examine something for meaning, that something has an arresting or captivating aspect to it, you're declaring that it's Okee-Dokee and suddenly not bad at all. Which is fucking ridiculous.
Sometimes bad things should be looked at, is all.
posted by cortex at 1:32 PM on November 5, 2004
Sometimes bad things should be looked at, is all.
I agree. But you agree that bad things should be approached carefully, don't you?
My comment began with a disclaimer that I didn't read all the haikus. I can imagine a black humor that examines this sensitive issue and has intrinsic value. But given that so many people clearly will use just the slightest excuse to, in this particular case, express their misogyny, leads me to view all such "honest", and "well-intentioned" examples with a very skeptical eye.
This is an ancient problem. How many of us have been told a racist joke, took offense, and then the person telling the joke said, "Hey, it was just a joke. It's funny!" Yeah, it's conceivable that the joker was purely appreciating transgressive comedy. But how often do we encounter such a thing where it's really damn obvious that it's really about the racism, not the comedy.
So, I think matthowie's point of view, certainly my point of view, is that I need some strong convincing that this is truly well-intentioned and of value before I can accept it. Because it very well could be something much, much worse.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:40 PM on November 5, 2004
I agree. But you agree that bad things should be approached carefully, don't you?
My comment began with a disclaimer that I didn't read all the haikus. I can imagine a black humor that examines this sensitive issue and has intrinsic value. But given that so many people clearly will use just the slightest excuse to, in this particular case, express their misogyny, leads me to view all such "honest", and "well-intentioned" examples with a very skeptical eye.
This is an ancient problem. How many of us have been told a racist joke, took offense, and then the person telling the joke said, "Hey, it was just a joke. It's funny!" Yeah, it's conceivable that the joker was purely appreciating transgressive comedy. But how often do we encounter such a thing where it's really damn obvious that it's really about the racism, not the comedy.
So, I think matthowie's point of view, certainly my point of view, is that I need some strong convincing that this is truly well-intentioned and of value before I can accept it. Because it very well could be something much, much worse.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:40 PM on November 5, 2004
I think, just maybe, what's missing was a *reason* for the post.
As in, more than just the link and title of the website. Maybe "Odd people are on the internet. Check here and tell us why you think the site is funny or nasty." might have passed.
But that's just me.
posted by shepd at 1:41 PM on November 5, 2004
As in, more than just the link and title of the website. Maybe "Odd people are on the internet. Check here and tell us why you think the site is funny or nasty." might have passed.
But that's just me.
posted by shepd at 1:41 PM on November 5, 2004
i just find it hilarious when matt does shit like alter the text of his own comments, and trim and prune the comments/posts of others. it's not that i dislike matt or anything, it's just that the first time he did that, he bought himself a job he can't possibly do, and one he can't possibly want. and i cannot for the life of me figure out what he's protecting by doing so? is he afraid someone will be inspired to action by an offensive site? is he afraid his grandma will take his silence as consent, or the presence of certain posts telegraphs some moral or personality flaw? as quagmires go, matt's is as sticky and as self-imposed as dubyuhs!
posted by quonsar at 1:43 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by quonsar at 1:43 PM on November 5, 2004
I'm pretty much with terrapin. The site isn't half as bad as I thought it would be from reading this, but I can't see it engendering any sort of great discussion, plus everyone is already in such a crap mood this week already it seems. I'd love to see an AskMe thread along the lines of "why isn't rape funny?" I'm sure there would be some spirited responses. Until we're all wearing "ask me about my rape!" t-shirts it's a touchy subject that gets touchier in this community that already deals with gender issues [among others] badly. I find one-off anonymous sites rarely the "best of" in any case. Let's get real, rape is mostly men raping women, and rape is mostly aggressive and violent.
Ryvar, I like your contributions and perspective in AskMe, but I just didn't think the link - posted as it was with no commentary, to a site with very little commentary - was so hot, and neither did Matt. What's the big deal? It's not really a free speech free for all here, never was supposed to be, never claimed to be. There would have been ways to make this link work, crash's way wasn't one of them.
posted by jessamyn at 1:43 PM on November 5, 2004
Ryvar, I like your contributions and perspective in AskMe, but I just didn't think the link - posted as it was with no commentary, to a site with very little commentary - was so hot, and neither did Matt. What's the big deal? It's not really a free speech free for all here, never was supposed to be, never claimed to be. There would have been ways to make this link work, crash's way wasn't one of them.
posted by jessamyn at 1:43 PM on November 5, 2004
If you think it's funny, you're either ignorant, or an asshole, or both.
EB, we're not discussing whether or not the site was funny. funny or not funny is irrelevant -- we're discussing if the thread was worthy of deletion or not.
something may be unfunny, but it may be interesting. as a general rule: if the site is not only unfunny, but even very disturbing, but it is interesting anyway, then there's grounds for keeping the thread.
as I said I agree with Haughey's decision, mainly because the haiku site was not only disturbing but also, essentially, very uninteresting. it was more than anything else an appalling wankfest of people with rape fantasies. I suppose Usenet may full of that shit. no need to read it on MeFi
posted by matteo at 1:45 PM on November 5, 2004
EB, we're not discussing whether or not the site was funny. funny or not funny is irrelevant -- we're discussing if the thread was worthy of deletion or not.
something may be unfunny, but it may be interesting. as a general rule: if the site is not only unfunny, but even very disturbing, but it is interesting anyway, then there's grounds for keeping the thread.
as I said I agree with Haughey's decision, mainly because the haiku site was not only disturbing but also, essentially, very uninteresting. it was more than anything else an appalling wankfest of people with rape fantasies. I suppose Usenet may full of that shit. no need to read it on MeFi
posted by matteo at 1:45 PM on November 5, 2004
So I guess I won't be posting that link to incestinas.com after all...
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:45 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:45 PM on November 5, 2004
Too late to get a part in the "that site should be axed-chorus"? Can I be Mezzo-Soprano?
posted by dabitch at 1:53 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by dabitch at 1:53 PM on November 5, 2004
Ryvar your examples make it pretty clear that their content is suppose to be taken lightly. the goatse.cx link wasn't the main link of the post and had a nsfw warning. The aristocrats joke also had a nsfw warning and gave the post some context. The post in question doesn't make it clear its suppose to be funny and neither does the website. They both merely state that there are haikus about rape. There's no real context where people are suppose to know that it suppose to be taken lightly.
posted by philcliff at 1:55 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by philcliff at 1:55 PM on November 5, 2004
People that commit sexual violence have the urge to do so and it manifests in a great many ways. It's very common for it to manifest in a more covert way in the form of jokes, or other transgressive behavior that makes sexual violence its context. My own personal experience is that I see this form of covert sexual violence far more often that I see earnest attempts to publicly explore a difficult and sensitive topic. In my mind, in this context, it's guilty until proven innocent. That's just the way it is.
This is why there was the negative reaction to my joke about Wonkette. Because it looks like such a thing, and it struck Matt that way, even though he was well-aware of Wonkette's online persona. I really approve of her persona because I see it as a form of sex-positive behavior, and in its odd way empowering for women; so I risked what I realized might appear to be an inappropriate joke. As I just added to that thread, it's also why I appended the comment to indicate the consensual sex-positive point-of-view on my part. Even so, I was a little nervous about the comment for exactly these reasons. Men make misygnist comments all the time in the form of "jokes". I think it's reasonable that the burden of proof (of good intent) lies on the joker.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:02 PM on November 5, 2004
This is why there was the negative reaction to my joke about Wonkette. Because it looks like such a thing, and it struck Matt that way, even though he was well-aware of Wonkette's online persona. I really approve of her persona because I see it as a form of sex-positive behavior, and in its odd way empowering for women; so I risked what I realized might appear to be an inappropriate joke. As I just added to that thread, it's also why I appended the comment to indicate the consensual sex-positive point-of-view on my part. Even so, I was a little nervous about the comment for exactly these reasons. Men make misygnist comments all the time in the form of "jokes". I think it's reasonable that the burden of proof (of good intent) lies on the joker.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:02 PM on November 5, 2004
...something may be unfunny, but it may be interesting. as a general rule: if the site is not only unfunny, but even very disturbing, but it is interesting anyway, then there's grounds for keeping the thread.
But does interesting trump "hateful"? In my view, it'd have to be really, really, really interesting.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:05 PM on November 5, 2004
But does interesting trump "hateful"? In my view, it'd have to be really, really, really interesting.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:05 PM on November 5, 2004
But you agree that bad things should be approached carefully, don't you?
Certainly. Exactly how much caution is necessary depends on the situation, I suppose, and the concensus with mr_crash_davis's post seems to be that there wasn't enough caution. Matt killed it, and I have no issue with that.
My perspective: it never occured to me when I saw the post originally that crash intended it to be a Darkly Funny Poems About Rape post. I saw it and said, hey, that's a disturbing website that I've never seen. I thought, sort of a daring post. I thought, this is gonna be a shitstorm of a thread, and Matt might delete it.
I can laugh at the blackest of black humor, and I tend to find humor in things that aren't funny in any popular sense, and so I can look at a haiku on that page (at least, one of the more elegantly crafted ones) and see where someone could laugh at it from even a pure and reasonable perspective -- finding humor in the artful execution of something so absurdly awful and detestable in content -- but I didn't think the site was funny and I didn't think crash expected anyone to, either. (Did the people who made the site think it was? Are there people who pass around links to it because they think rape is funny? Those are the sort of questions that could have made for interesting discussion if the context was right.)
But mostly what I've seen in reactions to the post are condemnations of the sort of person who would sit and laugh at these things, the sort of person who thinks rape is funny -- specifically, the sort of person that didn't seem to be present for any of the shrieking and finger-pointing that's been going on in reaction to the post.
posted by cortex at 2:07 PM on November 5, 2004
Certainly. Exactly how much caution is necessary depends on the situation, I suppose, and the concensus with mr_crash_davis's post seems to be that there wasn't enough caution. Matt killed it, and I have no issue with that.
My perspective: it never occured to me when I saw the post originally that crash intended it to be a Darkly Funny Poems About Rape post. I saw it and said, hey, that's a disturbing website that I've never seen. I thought, sort of a daring post. I thought, this is gonna be a shitstorm of a thread, and Matt might delete it.
I can laugh at the blackest of black humor, and I tend to find humor in things that aren't funny in any popular sense, and so I can look at a haiku on that page (at least, one of the more elegantly crafted ones) and see where someone could laugh at it from even a pure and reasonable perspective -- finding humor in the artful execution of something so absurdly awful and detestable in content -- but I didn't think the site was funny and I didn't think crash expected anyone to, either. (Did the people who made the site think it was? Are there people who pass around links to it because they think rape is funny? Those are the sort of questions that could have made for interesting discussion if the context was right.)
But mostly what I've seen in reactions to the post are condemnations of the sort of person who would sit and laugh at these things, the sort of person who thinks rape is funny -- specifically, the sort of person that didn't seem to be present for any of the shrieking and finger-pointing that's been going on in reaction to the post.
posted by cortex at 2:07 PM on November 5, 2004
Here's another female voice added to the 'Thanks for Deleting That, Matt!' choir.
posted by rhapsodie at 2:13 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by rhapsodie at 2:13 PM on November 5, 2004
soyjoy: I caught that the first time. You don't like rape haikus. Yes.
Well, no, actually: I don't really care one way or another about rape haikus as something that exists. What I care about is the whining that rape haikus deserve to be on the front page of Mefi because ryvar once had to look at a man's anus.
And if there's something special about the way rape haikus make us "confront" or "consider" the issue of rape that actual discussion of the phenomenon doesn't do, well, then there's something special about my comments too. So they deserve to be re-linked... if not made into an FPP!
posted by soyjoy at 2:13 PM on November 5, 2004
Well, no, actually: I don't really care one way or another about rape haikus as something that exists. What I care about is the whining that rape haikus deserve to be on the front page of Mefi because ryvar once had to look at a man's anus.
And if there's something special about the way rape haikus make us "confront" or "consider" the issue of rape that actual discussion of the phenomenon doesn't do, well, then there's something special about my comments too. So they deserve to be re-linked... if not made into an FPP!
posted by soyjoy at 2:13 PM on November 5, 2004
EB drives the point home eleoquently, but Konolia was succinct:
Some of us have experienced involuntary sex. I doubt any of us would have felt inspired to write a haiku about it. I KNOW none of us would care to read a haiku from a perpetrator's point of view.
Amen, sister. That was one of the most awful things I have ever seen for exactly the reasons she states. I fully support Matt's wanting to have nothing to do with it. Besides, if this sorty of thing is really fascinating to you, I'm sure you can go find a link to the site on violenceagainstwomeniscool.blogspot.com, it doesn't have to be here.
posted by psmealey at 2:15 PM on November 5, 2004
Some of us have experienced involuntary sex. I doubt any of us would have felt inspired to write a haiku about it. I KNOW none of us would care to read a haiku from a perpetrator's point of view.
Amen, sister. That was one of the most awful things I have ever seen for exactly the reasons she states. I fully support Matt's wanting to have nothing to do with it. Besides, if this sorty of thing is really fascinating to you, I'm sure you can go find a link to the site on violenceagainstwomeniscool.blogspot.com, it doesn't have to be here.
posted by psmealey at 2:15 PM on November 5, 2004
Let's get real, rape is mostly men raping women...
Not really.
posted by euphorb at 2:23 PM on November 5, 2004
Not really.
posted by euphorb at 2:23 PM on November 5, 2004
Between this and the Anal Sex discussion in the other thread, I pretty much think it's time to pull the plug on the MeFi server.
posted by Stan Chin at 2:23 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by Stan Chin at 2:23 PM on November 5, 2004
Joining the choir.
Also, why is it so hard for people to understand that a moderator deleting a post is not tantamount to censorship or suppression of free speech?
posted by LittleMissCranky at 2:24 PM on November 5, 2004
Also, why is it so hard for people to understand that a moderator deleting a post is not tantamount to censorship or suppression of free speech?
posted by LittleMissCranky at 2:24 PM on November 5, 2004
Also, why is it so hard for people to understand that a moderator deleting a post is not tantamount to censorship or suppression of free speech?
That's what happens when you let the inmates dictate asylum policy.
posted by darukaru at 2:29 PM on November 5, 2004
That's what happens when you let the inmates dictate asylum policy.
posted by darukaru at 2:29 PM on November 5, 2004
Another woman, another vote for "delete". Thank you, Matt.
posted by jess at 2:43 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by jess at 2:43 PM on November 5, 2004
I eagerly await the hew and cry the day Matt deletes a link to a site filled with images of child sexual abuse. "But that site was hilarious!" we'll hear Ryvar cry out, "It was striking and thought-provoking!"
This would be why we have such things as "leaders," folks: because the masses are asses, and the only positive social change seems to require that someone take the unpopular stance and say "Look, dammit, enough is enough: this sort of shit will not be tolerated."
Thank-you, Matt, for not tolerating that shit.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:50 PM on November 5, 2004
This would be why we have such things as "leaders," folks: because the masses are asses, and the only positive social change seems to require that someone take the unpopular stance and say "Look, dammit, enough is enough: this sort of shit will not be tolerated."
Thank-you, Matt, for not tolerating that shit.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:50 PM on November 5, 2004
"It's no different than dead-baby jokes"
I can see we need to explain humor to you. Fine. I'll take a shot.
Dead baby jokes are funny because they use exaggeration which leads to an absurdity. If it were true, it wouldn't be funny.
Rape, and the specific acts in the poems, are real traumatic events that scar people forever. Taking that trauma, summing it up in a poem, and then pointing to the juxtaposition, over and over, is not humor. It might be cathartic, but it's not funny.
People who find that funny have issues that they should deal with, rather than belittle those who find the material abhorrent. Expecting people to see the humor in that site is more than a little ridiculous. Getting bent out of shape when people don't find the humor in it is just silly.
I would lobby you that your expectation should be that the vast majority will react negatively and in a knee-jerk manner. Expecting anything else is naive.
Dan Hicks had a talent. This rape haiku site doesn't.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:51 PM on November 5, 2004
I can see we need to explain humor to you. Fine. I'll take a shot.
Dead baby jokes are funny because they use exaggeration which leads to an absurdity. If it were true, it wouldn't be funny.
Rape, and the specific acts in the poems, are real traumatic events that scar people forever. Taking that trauma, summing it up in a poem, and then pointing to the juxtaposition, over and over, is not humor. It might be cathartic, but it's not funny.
People who find that funny have issues that they should deal with, rather than belittle those who find the material abhorrent. Expecting people to see the humor in that site is more than a little ridiculous. Getting bent out of shape when people don't find the humor in it is just silly.
I would lobby you that your expectation should be that the vast majority will react negatively and in a knee-jerk manner. Expecting anything else is naive.
Dan Hicks had a talent. This rape haiku site doesn't.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:51 PM on November 5, 2004
the ONLY value in that FPP was in showing people that there's some sick twisted fucks out there ... no, thank you, i already knew that
it sucked ... it even sucked as a troll, that's how much it sucked
and ryvar ... you want free speech, get your own website for it
and as a male survivor of sexual violence, i also say thank you, matt
posted by pyramid termite at 3:01 PM on November 5, 2004
it sucked ... it even sucked as a troll, that's how much it sucked
and ryvar ... you want free speech, get your own website for it
and as a male survivor of sexual violence, i also say thank you, matt
posted by pyramid termite at 3:01 PM on November 5, 2004
Dan Hicks had a talent. This rape haiku site doesn't.
Bill Hicks, surely? (Dan Hicks has talent, too, but is perhaps not quite germane to this discussion.) Nevertheless, I agree. Thanks, Matt.
posted by scody at 3:05 PM on November 5, 2004
Bill Hicks, surely? (Dan Hicks has talent, too, but is perhaps not quite germane to this discussion.) Nevertheless, I agree. Thanks, Matt.
posted by scody at 3:05 PM on November 5, 2004
I love Bill Hicks. He did walk the razor's edge from time to time—sometimes I'm shocked from the PC viewpoint. But what redeems him totally, I think, is that the bulk of his work is deeply and critically insightful—subversive—in the very best tradition of standup comedy. Some of his stuff that seems (or is) offensive should be evaluated in that context.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:25 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:25 PM on November 5, 2004
one day my liberal brothers and sisters will successfully deconstruct the processes of whatever nasty biomechanism powers our shameful guffaws at stories of abomination. thankfully, my conservative brothers and sisters will outlaw the medical procedure developed to "cure" it.
posted by quonsar at 3:36 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by quonsar at 3:36 PM on November 5, 2004
and one more female voice saying, fucking a, thank you for deleting that Matt. jesus.
yeah, subversion can be great. but i don't see how this is brilliantly nuanced or particularly clever.
posted by ifjuly at 3:39 PM on November 5, 2004
yeah, subversion can be great. but i don't see how this is brilliantly nuanced or particularly clever.
posted by ifjuly at 3:39 PM on November 5, 2004
Another man saying thank you, Matt.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:48 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:48 PM on November 5, 2004
I didn't condemn mathowie for deleting the post, nor did I suggest that he didn't have the right to do so. I simply disagreed with the decision to do so and tried to explain why. Some of you cavort with straw men more than Dorothy, I swear.
I haven't read the site
So you admit up front you don't know what you're talking about. Okay. Next!
The site is vile and it advocates for profoundly violent rape.
You'll have to do more than state that as fact to convince those of us who didn't see it that way, you know. I can think of a half dozen things that one could argue the site was about OTHER than "advocating rape," just off the top of my head. I'm sure you can too, if you back away and think about it for a moment.
biffa explained my point of view better than I did, I refer you to his post. And to matteo's observation that "funny or not funny is irrelevant."
And those of you trying to discredit the site on the basis that it is bad haiku are just hilarious! Although that is certainly yet another valid way of approaching the site.
People should also note, since some seem to have missed it, that this is not a site thrown together by some solitary whackjob out there, but rather a site that accepts poetry submissions from the public at large, albeit on a limited topic and in a limited format. The content is therefore determined by the contributors, and it is my argument that the intent of all the contributors is not homogenous and cannot be reduced to the simplistic formulations suggested by some here. Some poetry deals with unpleasant subject matter...that's a good thing. Some poetry is bad and does so badly...that's the price you pay for free expression and imagination.
As for the "rape is all about violence, nothing about sex thing," mathowie, EB said some of what I would say, but I don't feel like arguing about it. It IS a subject that many people are sensitive to, with good reason, and I respect that. But if you want to do a little digging, I'm sure you can bring yourself up to speed on current thinking (which, to my mind, is much more in line with common sense than the older viewpoint) on the matter.
posted by rushmc at 3:49 PM on November 5, 2004
I haven't read the site
So you admit up front you don't know what you're talking about. Okay. Next!
The site is vile and it advocates for profoundly violent rape.
You'll have to do more than state that as fact to convince those of us who didn't see it that way, you know. I can think of a half dozen things that one could argue the site was about OTHER than "advocating rape," just off the top of my head. I'm sure you can too, if you back away and think about it for a moment.
biffa explained my point of view better than I did, I refer you to his post. And to matteo's observation that "funny or not funny is irrelevant."
And those of you trying to discredit the site on the basis that it is bad haiku are just hilarious! Although that is certainly yet another valid way of approaching the site.
People should also note, since some seem to have missed it, that this is not a site thrown together by some solitary whackjob out there, but rather a site that accepts poetry submissions from the public at large, albeit on a limited topic and in a limited format. The content is therefore determined by the contributors, and it is my argument that the intent of all the contributors is not homogenous and cannot be reduced to the simplistic formulations suggested by some here. Some poetry deals with unpleasant subject matter...that's a good thing. Some poetry is bad and does so badly...that's the price you pay for free expression and imagination.
As for the "rape is all about violence, nothing about sex thing," mathowie, EB said some of what I would say, but I don't feel like arguing about it. It IS a subject that many people are sensitive to, with good reason, and I respect that. But if you want to do a little digging, I'm sure you can bring yourself up to speed on current thinking (which, to my mind, is much more in line with common sense than the older viewpoint) on the matter.
posted by rushmc at 3:49 PM on November 5, 2004
Three quick thoughts.
On humour. George Carlin has argued that rape can be funny but it depends on the context of the joke (for example, going after rapists). This doesn't cut it.
If Matt hadn't deleted this post, there would almost certainly be a thread here demanding that he do so. I'm sure he's already come to the conclusion that he can't win. Why bother trying?
Bottom line, it's Matt's site and we're his guests. Salmonberry said, "If metafilter were on my server I wouldn't want it linking to that site either." I agree. (We've gotten a lot filthier in our postings lately. Now I like filth; I'm a big fan. But I'm noticing the trend.)
posted by mcwetboy at 4:02 PM on November 5, 2004
On humour. George Carlin has argued that rape can be funny but it depends on the context of the joke (for example, going after rapists). This doesn't cut it.
If Matt hadn't deleted this post, there would almost certainly be a thread here demanding that he do so. I'm sure he's already come to the conclusion that he can't win. Why bother trying?
Bottom line, it's Matt's site and we're his guests. Salmonberry said, "If metafilter were on my server I wouldn't want it linking to that site either." I agree. (We've gotten a lot filthier in our postings lately. Now I like filth; I'm a big fan. But I'm noticing the trend.)
posted by mcwetboy at 4:02 PM on November 5, 2004
Its Matt's site. Like he already stated, he's human. This ain't Google News.
If you don't like the fact that he deleted what is almost a universally offensive post, you're welcome to find a newFilter site. Just move along.
posted by trillion at 4:07 PM on November 5, 2004
If you don't like the fact that he deleted what is almost a universally offensive post, you're welcome to find a new
posted by trillion at 4:07 PM on November 5, 2004
Another chick chimes in: I actually found the site interesting in a deeply creepy way, but I have no problems with Matt deleting it.
posted by CunningLinguist at 4:24 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by CunningLinguist at 4:24 PM on November 5, 2004
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME
I'm a woman, and I have heard funny jokes about rapes. Seriously. (Hell, I own a book called The Lighter Side of Apartheid--which is an actually hilariously funny, though grim, book of jokes by anti-apartheid activists.)
However, that rape haikus site is just STUPID and I'm glad Matt deleted the link. It's his site, after all.
And rape is indeed an act of violence. It's an act of FORCING someone to have sex when they don't want to. That hurts a lot. Any man who says "rape is an act of sex, not of violence" needs to think about whether he would feel the same way if another man were shoving a penis into his unwilling anus.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:28 PM on November 5, 2004
I'm a woman, and I have heard funny jokes about rapes. Seriously. (Hell, I own a book called The Lighter Side of Apartheid--which is an actually hilariously funny, though grim, book of jokes by anti-apartheid activists.)
However, that rape haikus site is just STUPID and I'm glad Matt deleted the link. It's his site, after all.
And rape is indeed an act of violence. It's an act of FORCING someone to have sex when they don't want to. That hurts a lot. Any man who says "rape is an act of sex, not of violence" needs to think about whether he would feel the same way if another man were shoving a penis into his unwilling anus.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:28 PM on November 5, 2004
I've already stated that I don't find violence against women funny
Matt, why do you narrow down the demographic regarding your repulsion of violence?
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:30 PM on November 5, 2004
Matt, why do you narrow down the demographic regarding your repulsion of violence?
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:30 PM on November 5, 2004
Also, I've been raped, and although sex was certainly involved, it was the violence that I remembered.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:30 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:30 PM on November 5, 2004
OMG what a stinky, nasty, worthless site and what a justified, well-timed, and more than well-explained deletion. Matt, do you scratch your head over why you even have to explain the deletion of rape-humor links? Fucking hell, people.
Censorship!? That would be the ISP taking the site down. If you're not happy with MetaFilter's usual NC-17 rating and believe it needs to be an uncut snuff film or risk becoming The Death of Free Speech, please put your genitals away and place a nice plastic bag over your head.
I've already stated that I don't find violence against women funny
Matt, why do you narrow down the demographic regarding your repulsion of violence?
Wow. Take someone who protests sexism and give them a hard time because they're not protesting all human persecution of other humans. Uh-huh. That's like calling Martin Luther King a racist because he only cared about black people's problems.
posted by scarabic at 4:45 PM on November 5, 2004
Censorship!? That would be the ISP taking the site down. If you're not happy with MetaFilter's usual NC-17 rating and believe it needs to be an uncut snuff film or risk becoming The Death of Free Speech, please put your genitals away and place a nice plastic bag over your head.
I've already stated that I don't find violence against women funny
Matt, why do you narrow down the demographic regarding your repulsion of violence?
Wow. Take someone who protests sexism and give them a hard time because they're not protesting all human persecution of other humans. Uh-huh. That's like calling Martin Luther King a racist because he only cared about black people's problems.
posted by scarabic at 4:45 PM on November 5, 2004
scarabic, how about read the rape haikus before commenting. Male rape exists you know.
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:46 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by SpaceCadet at 4:46 PM on November 5, 2004
Not, you know, that he did.
"Only care about black people's problems," that is.
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:46 PM on November 5, 2004
"Only care about black people's problems," that is.
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:46 PM on November 5, 2004
Apparently the excerpts posted here were insufficient evidence for me to judge this site, so I just went and read everything on the front page. Am I entitled to say it is hateful and disgusting now?
posted by jacquilynne at 5:25 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by jacquilynne at 5:25 PM on November 5, 2004
Dunno about mcd's sources, but I saw it on Sensible Erection this morning. And you know, even by Sensible Erection standards, this is lame, as well as offensive. *I* would have deleted it on complete lameness grounds even if it weren't vile filth.
(Just for comparison, would anyone be cheering for a bunch of humorous lynching haiku? I think not.)
With some effort, I could see how one well constructed verse might make the grade for extreme black humour. A ton of them is at most an ugly curiousity.
I love free speech but I'm not dying in a ditch for this one. In fact, offended as I have been by Newsfilter and the neverending election posts, I'm more offended by this. Yay Matt.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:45 PM on November 5, 2004
(Just for comparison, would anyone be cheering for a bunch of humorous lynching haiku? I think not.)
With some effort, I could see how one well constructed verse might make the grade for extreme black humour. A ton of them is at most an ugly curiousity.
I love free speech but I'm not dying in a ditch for this one. In fact, offended as I have been by Newsfilter and the neverending election posts, I'm more offended by this. Yay Matt.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:45 PM on November 5, 2004
Spiderman is cool.
Bringing down a woman's world...
That is also cool.
HOW IS THAT NOT FUNNY?
posted by Pretty_Generic at 5:55 PM on November 5, 2004
Bringing down a woman's world...
That is also cool.
HOW IS THAT NOT FUNNY?
posted by Pretty_Generic at 5:55 PM on November 5, 2004
Any man who says "rape is an act of sex, not of violence"
Please. No one is even suggesting that, much less saying it. Why are you muddying waters that are already opaque?
Am I entitled to say it is hateful and disgusting now?
Yep.
posted by rushmc at 6:00 PM on November 5, 2004
Please. No one is even suggesting that, much less saying it. Why are you muddying waters that are already opaque?
Am I entitled to say it is hateful and disgusting now?
Yep.
posted by rushmc at 6:00 PM on November 5, 2004
Here's another male voice added to the 'Thanks for Deleting That, Matt!' choir.
plus, what y6y6y6 said. The first time. and mcwetboy, and P_G.
Ok, that'll do.
Thank god for taste.You know how hard it is for me to say the 'G' word.
posted by dash_slot- at 7:00 PM on November 5, 2004
plus, what y6y6y6 said. The first time. and mcwetboy, and P_G.
Ok, that'll do.
Thank god for taste.You know how hard it is for me to say the 'G' word.
posted by dash_slot- at 7:00 PM on November 5, 2004
Seems to me that this thread is a fair replacement for the FPP that got deleted. You can get to the rape haiku from here, and you can discuss the site in this thread, as well as complain about it being deleted.
So... why not consider that Matt's given you a generous compromise?
posted by orange swan at 7:02 PM on November 5, 2004
So... why not consider that Matt's given you a generous compromise?
posted by orange swan at 7:02 PM on November 5, 2004
Censorship!? That would be the ISP taking the site down.
No. Censorship would be the government forbidding it.
ISPs can and do pick and choose who they accept and retain as customers, and it is not censorship. Likewise, Matt can and does pick and choose what remains on MeFi, and it is not censorship.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:15 PM on November 5, 2004
No. Censorship would be the government forbidding it.
ISPs can and do pick and choose who they accept and retain as customers, and it is not censorship. Likewise, Matt can and does pick and choose what remains on MeFi, and it is not censorship.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:15 PM on November 5, 2004
Another nod of thanks from another individual, happens to be male but that is hardly an issue.
They're just words, people - the moment you start to feel uncomfortable you hit a button and they're gone, it's not like images of goatse where the full horror is unveiled the millisecond you click the link and you have no chance of ever removing even part of it from your memory.
You read words, an image forms. You click a button, the words are gone, the image remains. Another site, you see a heinous anus, you click a button and it goes away. What's the difference? Imagination perhaps?
posted by juiceCake at 7:20 PM on November 5, 2004
They're just words, people - the moment you start to feel uncomfortable you hit a button and they're gone, it's not like images of goatse where the full horror is unveiled the millisecond you click the link and you have no chance of ever removing even part of it from your memory.
You read words, an image forms. You click a button, the words are gone, the image remains. Another site, you see a heinous anus, you click a button and it goes away. What's the difference? Imagination perhaps?
posted by juiceCake at 7:20 PM on November 5, 2004
heinous anus
Can that be my new wrestling name?
Nevermind... I just checked and heinousanus.com is already taken! (But heinousanus.tv is still available!)
posted by dobbs at 7:26 PM on November 5, 2004
Can that be my new wrestling name?
Nevermind... I just checked and heinousanus.com is already taken! (But heinousanus.tv is still available!)
posted by dobbs at 7:26 PM on November 5, 2004
When I go to heinousanus, it tells me that it's coming soon. It also mentions something about "Go Daddy."
posted by five fresh fish at 7:54 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by five fresh fish at 7:54 PM on November 5, 2004
I didn't find it offensive -- lame, perhaps, but not offensive -- but it's enough for me that Matt did. The reasons for the post to stand don't outweigh my trust in his judgement.
posted by majick at 8:08 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by majick at 8:08 PM on November 5, 2004
I think Matt has a right to do anything he wants to on a site that he has created and nurtured.
I also think a link to rapehaiku.com by itself as the only content on the front page makes for a poor post. And I'm usually a big fan of m_c_d.
So I fully support the deletion.
However, had rapehaiku.com been a part of a better formed post then I would disagree with deleting it. Not facing things doesn't make them go away. That there is a site like rapehaiku.com is interesting to me even though I find the content repugnant. I find the scenes depicted in Goya's Disasters of the War similarly horrific yet I'm glad that they exist. (and no, I don't think crappy haikus are in any way comparable to the brilliance that is Goya's work.)
Rape is a very complex topic. I think that in some ways there is a rapist lurking within me, although I'm a kind and gentle person and wouldn't ever rape anyone or fantasize about it. The idea that it would happen to someone I love sickens me. But I have complicated and conflicted feelings when I hear about rape and other males I've discussed this with have acknowledged the same. I know that it would be interesting and helpful to me to discuss this here and rapehaiku.com could be a data point in that discussion.
Rape, unfortunately, is not going to go away any time soon and ignoring it or pretending it doesn't exist isn't going to hasten its disappearance.
posted by TimeFactor at 9:26 PM on November 5, 2004
I also think a link to rapehaiku.com by itself as the only content on the front page makes for a poor post. And I'm usually a big fan of m_c_d.
So I fully support the deletion.
However, had rapehaiku.com been a part of a better formed post then I would disagree with deleting it. Not facing things doesn't make them go away. That there is a site like rapehaiku.com is interesting to me even though I find the content repugnant. I find the scenes depicted in Goya's Disasters of the War similarly horrific yet I'm glad that they exist. (and no, I don't think crappy haikus are in any way comparable to the brilliance that is Goya's work.)
Rape is a very complex topic. I think that in some ways there is a rapist lurking within me, although I'm a kind and gentle person and wouldn't ever rape anyone or fantasize about it. The idea that it would happen to someone I love sickens me. But I have complicated and conflicted feelings when I hear about rape and other males I've discussed this with have acknowledged the same. I know that it would be interesting and helpful to me to discuss this here and rapehaiku.com could be a data point in that discussion.
Rape, unfortunately, is not going to go away any time soon and ignoring it or pretending it doesn't exist isn't going to hasten its disappearance.
posted by TimeFactor at 9:26 PM on November 5, 2004
Next time crash decides to criticize as transgressive something I've written at my own site, I'll have to remember that he's the guy that thought rape haiku was good MeFi material.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:18 PM on November 5, 2004
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:18 PM on November 5, 2004
Ok, first off -- I have rape victim cred: I'm one of the ladies mentioned in this book. "My" part starts on page 182.
Secondly, In my opinion, the shit on this site is just plain weak and stupid. I visit Metafilter/Metatalk/Ask Metafilter often; I don't believe it's suddently turned into Fark or Stile or any other place of that ilk. To me, dumb shit like this just seems off-the-wall.
I suspect the motives of anyone who posts a link in the blue without any caption or lead-in. This goes for all sites posted, regardless of the nature. This is the first time I've felt compelled to write about this, given that I can speak from a point of experience that most of you can't.
Crash -- You bored today? Needed to stir some shit up? You've always expressed edgy points of view (on sexual points as well as others) that I have enjoyed reading, and have often agreed with. Without any comments or lead-in to your initial post, I have no idea what your point of posting was here. Because of that, in the future I'm less inclined to take the time to investigate anything else you post with minimal comments.
I don't expect you to care about what one random broad who lurks alot and rarely comments thinks about your actions. But I do want to make this point: My point is not uncommon. And for every time you post a link without any comments indicating your point of view, you're losing credibility with people that read this site. And if you're losing credibility with people that read this site, why are you posting?
Additionally, anyone who bitches in a public forum about what the owner of this site does with this site without taking the time to prepare an argument to present his case (this goes for the person who objected "..fuck zack miller comment" -- I'm too lazy to get proper attributes ) has shot his credibility all to hell with me.
posted by xena at 10:34 PM on November 5, 2004
Secondly, In my opinion, the shit on this site is just plain weak and stupid. I visit Metafilter/Metatalk/Ask Metafilter often; I don't believe it's suddently turned into Fark or Stile or any other place of that ilk. To me, dumb shit like this just seems off-the-wall.
I suspect the motives of anyone who posts a link in the blue without any caption or lead-in. This goes for all sites posted, regardless of the nature. This is the first time I've felt compelled to write about this, given that I can speak from a point of experience that most of you can't.
Crash -- You bored today? Needed to stir some shit up? You've always expressed edgy points of view (on sexual points as well as others) that I have enjoyed reading, and have often agreed with. Without any comments or lead-in to your initial post, I have no idea what your point of posting was here. Because of that, in the future I'm less inclined to take the time to investigate anything else you post with minimal comments.
I don't expect you to care about what one random broad who lurks alot and rarely comments thinks about your actions. But I do want to make this point: My point is not uncommon. And for every time you post a link without any comments indicating your point of view, you're losing credibility with people that read this site. And if you're losing credibility with people that read this site, why are you posting?
Additionally, anyone who bitches in a public forum about what the owner of this site does with this site without taking the time to prepare an argument to present his case (this goes for the person who objected "..fuck zack miller comment" -- I'm too lazy to get proper attributes ) has shot his credibility all to hell with me.
posted by xena at 10:34 PM on November 5, 2004
I suspect the motives of anyone who posts a link in the blue without any caption or lead-in. This goes for all sites posted, regardless of the nature.
xena, that's a good point, I do too. Though sometimes I wouldn't want a post to have been done any other way. It depends a lot on the content and the phrasing, as well as the poster's history.
Still, I think it's clear that MCD's decision to do so on this one has most of us continuing to wonder about those motives, especially given his utter non-answer about it.
And, not to switch gears or anything, but...
heinous anus
Man, I used to love his cookies... until I figured out what was in 'em.
posted by soyjoy at 10:48 PM on November 5, 2004
xena, that's a good point, I do too. Though sometimes I wouldn't want a post to have been done any other way. It depends a lot on the content and the phrasing, as well as the poster's history.
Still, I think it's clear that MCD's decision to do so on this one has most of us continuing to wonder about those motives, especially given his utter non-answer about it.
And, not to switch gears or anything, but...
heinous anus
Man, I used to love his cookies... until I figured out what was in 'em.
posted by soyjoy at 10:48 PM on November 5, 2004
Xena, I mostly agree with you but there are many instances in which attempting to describe a site is pointless. Yesterday I made a FPP to Qrime.com. I have no idea what the hell the "point" of the site is but I felt compelled to share it. Outside of saying "Flash", what is there to say about something like this?
I often don't click on links that have no explanation until I read the comments. Of course, if everyone behaved that way, those links would not be followed. However, I believe that any explanation I could offer of qrime.com would fall way short of the mark and have even less people clicking it than did.
posted by dobbs at 11:36 PM on November 5, 2004
I often don't click on links that have no explanation until I read the comments. Of course, if everyone behaved that way, those links would not be followed. However, I believe that any explanation I could offer of qrime.com would fall way short of the mark and have even less people clicking it than did.
posted by dobbs at 11:36 PM on November 5, 2004
Should the post have been deleted?
Of course it should. It was fucking begging for it.
I don't know what I find more disturbing about this thread. Wendell's witch-huntery of ryvar was particularly creepy. What say we all get some pitchforks and go and give ryvar what for. Because, you know, we have to show the world that we aren't rapists. We hate rapists. So much so, we couldn't possibly be rapists ourselves. We hate rapists. And we hate pediatricians.
Ethereal Bligh. Is there any liberal job you haven't done. Jesus christ man. You've filled every rainbow badged role from Rape Counciller to Sponger. You must be like 300 years old or something.
If this had been a site containing (for example) Humourous Columbine Haiku, there would have been possible debate about what sepatates fantasy from reality. A lot of you would have argued that just because you thought a three line verse about killing teenagers was funny, you actually wouldn't do it yourself.
There's an advert for mobile phones which used to be shown in the UK, where Wycliffe Jean is sent to prison. The final scene is of him stood in the shower between two men (one with a Wycliffe Jean tattoo). There's some gag about dropped soap, and the advert ends. The implication is that Wycliffe is about to be raped. I don't know one person who didn't think the advert wasn't funny, and I don't know one person who said that the advert should be banned.
posted by seanyboy at 12:43 AM on November 6, 2004
Of course it should. It was fucking begging for it.
I don't know what I find more disturbing about this thread. Wendell's witch-huntery of ryvar was particularly creepy. What say we all get some pitchforks and go and give ryvar what for. Because, you know, we have to show the world that we aren't rapists. We hate rapists. So much so, we couldn't possibly be rapists ourselves. We hate rapists. And we hate pediatricians.
Ethereal Bligh. Is there any liberal job you haven't done. Jesus christ man. You've filled every rainbow badged role from Rape Counciller to Sponger. You must be like 300 years old or something.
If this had been a site containing (for example) Humourous Columbine Haiku, there would have been possible debate about what sepatates fantasy from reality. A lot of you would have argued that just because you thought a three line verse about killing teenagers was funny, you actually wouldn't do it yourself.
There's an advert for mobile phones which used to be shown in the UK, where Wycliffe Jean is sent to prison. The final scene is of him stood in the shower between two men (one with a Wycliffe Jean tattoo). There's some gag about dropped soap, and the advert ends. The implication is that Wycliffe is about to be raped. I don't know one person who didn't think the advert wasn't funny, and I don't know one person who said that the advert should be banned.
posted by seanyboy at 12:43 AM on November 6, 2004
that was a truly suck ass post for a lot of reasons, but tonight i choose to be offended by morans who can't do black humour properly.
also, i will place an ancient irish-italian curse on the next person to write a really bad haiku that doesn't allude to nature in some fashion. fucking hacks.
posted by t r a c y at 12:48 AM on November 6, 2004
also, i will place an ancient irish-italian curse on the next person to write a really bad haiku that doesn't allude to nature in some fashion. fucking hacks.
posted by t r a c y at 12:48 AM on November 6, 2004
That advert here
A bit of googling reveals that it did draw some flak. But everybody I know thought it was funny.
posted by seanyboy at 12:49 AM on November 6, 2004
A bit of googling reveals that it did draw some flak. But everybody I know thought it was funny.
posted by seanyboy at 12:49 AM on November 6, 2004
your ire is welcome.
Is moran the curse maker
t r a c y
posted by seanyboy at 12:51 AM on November 6, 2004
Is moran the curse maker
t r a c y
posted by seanyboy at 12:51 AM on November 6, 2004
*starts working up good curse making face, gets distracted by creative last 5 syllables*
also, what the fuck with the 'matt must have some deep seated psychological reason for deleting this post'...? he didn't like it, it's his site, he got rid of it. not everyone you disagree with is insane you know.
posted by t r a c y at 1:12 AM on November 6, 2004
also, what the fuck with the 'matt must have some deep seated psychological reason for deleting this post'...? he didn't like it, it's his site, he got rid of it. not everyone you disagree with is insane you know.
posted by t r a c y at 1:12 AM on November 6, 2004
I heart the crash_davis, but, yeah - I'd have to say that without a structure inviting some (hopefully) intelligent discussion about what the purposes of the site are, etc., it comes off as sub-Farkish. I wouldn't have participated even if that were the case, because it really gives me a case of the all-out clammy creeps, but I probably would have been more sympathetic to criticism of its deletion.
posted by taz at 1:38 AM on November 6, 2004
posted by taz at 1:38 AM on November 6, 2004
Tracy I have to admit on a purely aesthetic level - the lack of a kigo in any of these (I checked all of them) really chafes my hide. While your English professor will (generally) tell you that technically the kigo is an anachronism and these are still haikus, the traditionalist in me cries out that so many of these would have been improved by using 'raping in summer' for their last line. Or words to that effect.
On a purely ancillary note, my wife found it hilarious. We've been throwing haikus back and forth at each other ("Pumping your ass hard / I know you love the strapon / Now who is the bitch?" she clearly doesn't share my pretensions regarding kigo) since last night.
posted by Ryvar at 5:55 AM on November 6, 2004
On a purely ancillary note, my wife found it hilarious. We've been throwing haikus back and forth at each other ("Pumping your ass hard / I know you love the strapon / Now who is the bitch?" she clearly doesn't share my pretensions regarding kigo) since last night.
posted by Ryvar at 5:55 AM on November 6, 2004
Just share a rape haiku with us and it will be posted shortly.
They didn't publish
any of my rape haikus,
oh wait here they are
posted by jessamyn at 8:31 AM on November 6, 2004
They didn't publish
any of my rape haikus,
oh wait here they are
posted by jessamyn at 8:31 AM on November 6, 2004
Well, Ryvar, it's always nice when you find something you can enjoy together. Or perhaps I should say,
Ryvar and his wife
elated by rape haiku.
Breezes over frost.
:)
posted by taz at 9:27 AM on November 6, 2004 [1 favorite]
Ryvar and his wife
elated by rape haiku.
Breezes over frost.
:)
posted by taz at 9:27 AM on November 6, 2004 [1 favorite]
heinous anus
Can that be my new wrestling name?
When I was growing up (35 at present) that was a name I made up in a 'names for punk bands' competition.
posted by juiceCake at 9:56 AM on November 6, 2004
Can that be my new wrestling name?
When I was growing up (35 at present) that was a name I made up in a 'names for punk bands' competition.
posted by juiceCake at 9:56 AM on November 6, 2004
For a combination of reasons already stated (konolia's and cortex's posts are good ones), I don't like the site. As a front page post, I would find it less objectionable (not objectionable at all, actually) if it were presented in the context of a larger discussion about black humor, perspectives on rape, or sites that might push the envelope a little too far (or not, hence the potential for discussion). At it was, it just came across as kind of creepy.*
I think the discussion that ensued back here has been somewhat good, though.
*Note: This is not meant to cast aspersions on mr_crash_davis, who, as far as I know him, seems like a very amusing, intelligent, and reasonable person.
posted by jennyb at 12:15 PM on November 6, 2004
I think the discussion that ensued back here has been somewhat good, though.
*Note: This is not meant to cast aspersions on mr_crash_davis, who, as far as I know him, seems like a very amusing, intelligent, and reasonable person.
posted by jennyb at 12:15 PM on November 6, 2004
And for every time you post a link without any comments indicating your point of view, you're losing credibility with people that read this site.
Sorry, but that's patently ridiculous. The stated purpose of Metafilter is to provide a place for people to share links to interesting content on the web. Nowhere is it implied that they should also tell you what to think about them.
posted by rushmc at 12:55 PM on November 6, 2004
Sorry, but that's patently ridiculous. The stated purpose of Metafilter is to provide a place for people to share links to interesting content on the web. Nowhere is it implied that they should also tell you what to think about them.
posted by rushmc at 12:55 PM on November 6, 2004
Another "thanks, Matt" from a male perspective.
posted by languagehat at 2:19 PM on November 6, 2004
posted by languagehat at 2:19 PM on November 6, 2004
While I can agree with you, rushmc, on 'there is good poetry and there is bad poetry, there are good haiku and there are bad haiku' I cannot agree with the subject matter.
As a onetime victim of rape I've avoided this thread (please to note, no anonyme postings in here, don't feel sorry for me, I deal with my feelings/reactions in my own way), my feelings on this =there.is.nothing.funny.about.rape.
My piece said, next please?
posted by kamylyon at 12:12 AM on November 7, 2004
As a onetime victim of rape I've avoided this thread (please to note, no anonyme postings in here, don't feel sorry for me, I deal with my feelings/reactions in my own way), my feelings on this =there.is.nothing.funny.about.rape.
My piece said, next please?
posted by kamylyon at 12:12 AM on November 7, 2004
Okay then, we'll just declare any and all subjects that cause anyone, anywhere pain off limits for discussion, poetry, humor, or any other form of examination, study, or reflection. We will limit ourselves to nodding and mumbling "bad, very bad" under our breaths in as non-offensive a manner as possible. That will make things better.
posted by rushmc at 8:55 AM on November 7, 2004
posted by rushmc at 8:55 AM on November 7, 2004
That's just silly rush.
Sure I should have added 'to me' in my first comment, sorry!
Having missed the thread in the first place, maybe I just should have kept my mouth shut and stayed out of this one.
posted by kamylyon at 11:17 AM on November 7, 2004
Sure I should have added 'to me' in my first comment, sorry!
Having missed the thread in the first place, maybe I just should have kept my mouth shut and stayed out of this one.
posted by kamylyon at 11:17 AM on November 7, 2004
your ripe testicles
hang silently in my jar
you don't need them now
posted by beth at 1:26 PM on November 11, 2004 [1 favorite]
hang silently in my jar
you don't need them now
posted by beth at 1:26 PM on November 11, 2004 [1 favorite]
he planned on some "fun"
until she pulled out a nine
aiming for his prick
posted by ifjuly at 6:17 PM on November 12, 2004
until she pulled out a nine
aiming for his prick
posted by ifjuly at 6:17 PM on November 12, 2004
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posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 10:48 AM on November 5, 2004