I offended Richard Lederer July 20, 2005 8:44 PM Subscribe
Re: Root of Testimony
Well, I made a bad mistake yesterday. I sent an email off to Richard Lederer, but it didn't occur to me to check what my display name was. Unfortunately, because my name was still displayed as "Nigger Stole My Truck," I offended him. So, the reply I got was not as verbose as I had hoped:
I'm offended by your racist e-mail address and will not respond to any additional e-message from such a source, But because I am a language teacher,. I'll briefly answer this one inquiry.
There is a widely circulated theory that testify and testimony are related to the testes and the practice of men clutching their gonads when giving testimony, as Abraham does in biblical Genesis. As your online etymology indicates, this theory is false. The words are derived from Latin for "witness."
So, I suppose I was right, but I sure don't feel so good now, having offended someone who I considered to be a 'hero' of sorts. Naturally, I'll be sending him an apology. But, I still feel a bit of pride for sniffing out an urban legend. Link to related debate here (scroll down a little).
Well, I made a bad mistake yesterday. I sent an email off to Richard Lederer, but it didn't occur to me to check what my display name was. Unfortunately, because my name was still displayed as "Nigger Stole My Truck," I offended him. So, the reply I got was not as verbose as I had hoped:
I'm offended by your racist e-mail address and will not respond to any additional e-message from such a source, But because I am a language teacher,. I'll briefly answer this one inquiry.
There is a widely circulated theory that testify and testimony are related to the testes and the practice of men clutching their gonads when giving testimony, as Abraham does in biblical Genesis. As your online etymology indicates, this theory is false. The words are derived from Latin for "witness."
So, I suppose I was right, but I sure don't feel so good now, having offended someone who I considered to be a 'hero' of sorts. Naturally, I'll be sending him an apology. But, I still feel a bit of pride for sniffing out an urban legend. Link to related debate here (scroll down a little).
Why would you even keep such a revolting display name? Seriously, what the fuck were you thinking when you chose it?
posted by clevershark at 8:55 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by clevershark at 8:55 PM on July 20, 2005
And more curiously - why would you admit to something like that in such a public forum as MeFi/MeTa??
posted by FlamingBore at 8:58 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by FlamingBore at 8:58 PM on July 20, 2005
, But because I am a language teacher,.
This is such a funny post. It's most funny, for sure.
posted by underer at 9:02 PM on July 20, 2005
This is such a funny post. It's most funny, for sure.
posted by underer at 9:02 PM on July 20, 2005
Yeah, I was playing around with a friend, and it was in reference to a bit of pop culture (that movie about the young neo-nazis). You never drop the n-bomb with your friends?
posted by Citizen Premier at 9:14 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by Citizen Premier at 9:14 PM on July 20, 2005
FlamingBore, because I am an honest person with no shame.
posted by Citizen Premier at 9:15 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by Citizen Premier at 9:15 PM on July 20, 2005
You never drop the n-bomb with your friends?
No, but none of my friends is in the Klan.
posted by anapestic at 9:18 PM on July 20, 2005
No, but none of my friends is in the Klan.
posted by anapestic at 9:18 PM on July 20, 2005
because I am an honest person with no shame.
Your profile tells a different story. You have no e-mail posted, nor do you have any other revealing information.
On preview: what pesty said.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 9:19 PM on July 20, 2005
Your profile tells a different story. You have no e-mail posted, nor do you have any other revealing information.
On preview: what pesty said.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 9:19 PM on July 20, 2005
Be sure not to send the apology from your IAssFuckRetards account!
posted by fleacircus at 9:22 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by fleacircus at 9:22 PM on July 20, 2005
Um, profiles are a bit silly. But, now that you mention it, I'll add some information. It's citizenpremier@yahoo.com, if you actually have something to email to me.
posted by Citizen Premier at 9:29 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by Citizen Premier at 9:29 PM on July 20, 2005
First, it was never quite clear what we were debating. My links indicated the common Latin root while you're apparently saying Genesis had nothing to do with it (a point upon which everybody eventually agreeded, I think). Prof. Lederer has indicated that both testicle and testemony derive from testis (witness) - my point exactly.
Second, I am quite amazed by Lederer's "extreme politeness under fire" - that he dignified your childish and offensive display name with a serious answer says a lot about his dedication to knowledge. Now, tell us simpletons how the hell do you manage to send a serious email under such a foolish name? If you gonna be a l33t IM pilot, you gotta a lot of work to do (and cheers to us elders who still use a proper email client correctly configured when sending an email - no matter what my IMs display, it has nothing to do with my email...).
On preview, if I were you, I'd quit trying to explain - apologize and move on, before you incite a real flamefest (and believe me, while I understand the mistake, there is a flamefest right under my fingers - and as other responses imply, I am not alone).
posted by nkyad at 9:29 PM on July 20, 2005
Second, I am quite amazed by Lederer's "extreme politeness under fire" - that he dignified your childish and offensive display name with a serious answer says a lot about his dedication to knowledge. Now, tell us simpletons how the hell do you manage to send a serious email under such a foolish name? If you gonna be a l33t IM pilot, you gotta a lot of work to do (and cheers to us elders who still use a proper email client correctly configured when sending an email - no matter what my IMs display, it has nothing to do with my email...).
On preview, if I were you, I'd quit trying to explain - apologize and move on, before you incite a real flamefest (and believe me, while I understand the mistake, there is a flamefest right under my fingers - and as other responses imply, I am not alone).
posted by nkyad at 9:29 PM on July 20, 2005
I don't see how both words being derived from the Latin word for "witness" can mean they are not related to grabbing your man-sack while bearing witness. Does someone who understands this reasoning want to explain it to me? What urban legend what debunked?
You never drop the n-bomb with your friends?
No. Never. Fool.
On preview: what nkyad said about the argument.
posted by mexican at 9:37 PM on July 20, 2005
You never drop the n-bomb with your friends?
No. Never. Fool.
On preview: what nkyad said about the argument.
posted by mexican at 9:37 PM on July 20, 2005
So... this was all just a big troll, right? I mean, nobody's gonna actually say this on Metafilter and mean it... right?
Where's the camera. Come on.
posted by soyjoy at 9:42 PM on July 20, 2005
Where's the camera. Come on.
posted by soyjoy at 9:42 PM on July 20, 2005
So, let's recap:
Pointless MeTa post that would have been fine in the original thread.
Bizarre and offensive racist content that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
User quitting MeFi because of the liberal intolerance that won't allow him to "drop the n-bomb."
I think we have a winner!
posted by anapestic at 9:48 PM on July 20, 2005
Pointless MeTa post that would have been fine in the original thread.
Bizarre and offensive racist content that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
User quitting MeFi because of the liberal intolerance that won't allow him to "drop the n-bomb."
I think we have a winner!
posted by anapestic at 9:48 PM on July 20, 2005
This is like PP's Monday thread, except that none of it was terribly funny.
posted by clevershark at 9:51 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by clevershark at 9:51 PM on July 20, 2005
lol.
posted by angry modem at 9:51 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by angry modem at 9:51 PM on July 20, 2005
i cant stand here listening to you...and your racist friend.
i wouldn't have replied.
posted by schyler523 at 9:54 PM on July 20, 2005
i wouldn't have replied.
posted by schyler523 at 9:54 PM on July 20, 2005
His profile now notes that he has a lot of Asian friends. His insight on race relations is unparalled.
In a seriousness, don't give up on this place yet. People are assholes here, but the learning curve is much steeper as a result. Hang on in.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 9:54 PM on July 20, 2005
In a seriousness, don't give up on this place yet. People are assholes here, but the learning curve is much steeper as a result. Hang on in.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 9:54 PM on July 20, 2005
C.P. done effed up. Right here, in gray and white.
It's like when my kids pretend they have turrets syndrome and call each other "stupid", and I say, "Hmm, did you really think about that before you spoke?"
also on preview; what SeizeTheDay said. Relax, hang out, cut it out with the "N" bomb.
posted by snsranch at 9:59 PM on July 20, 2005
It's like when my kids pretend they have turrets syndrome and call each other "stupid", and I say, "Hmm, did you really think about that before you spoke?"
also on preview; what SeizeTheDay said. Relax, hang out, cut it out with the "N" bomb.
posted by snsranch at 9:59 PM on July 20, 2005
Blech. It was a stupid mistake, and I don't see why it's that hard to grasp. I'm going to be making racist jokes till I die, a few seconds from now when the angry metafites kill me. However, it might be prudent to mention now that I'm a teenager, and teenagers today make racist jokes, and have friends of every color. At least in my district they do.
posted by Citizen Premier at 10:03 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by Citizen Premier at 10:03 PM on July 20, 2005
You have what in your email display name? Ugh. You are an even bigger disgusting fuck than I ever imagined from your puerile comments here. Go away! I hope you never return to MeFi or any other place I ever frequent. Oh, and get some shame; you need it.
posted by caddis at 10:06 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by caddis at 10:06 PM on July 20, 2005
You never drop the n-bomb with your friends?
Yes, fairly often. As do many, many that I know. 2005, folks. It's happening all around you, and there's nothing racist about it.
posted by DuoJet at 10:07 PM on July 20, 2005
Yes, fairly often. As do many, many that I know. 2005, folks. It's happening all around you, and there's nothing racist about it.
posted by DuoJet at 10:07 PM on July 20, 2005
2005, folks. It's happening all around you, and there's nothing racist about it.
Perhaps you're young and ignorant enough to be completely unaware of the historical associations of the word, but saying that there's nothing racist about it doesn't make it so. If you're going to hang out on a website that is comprised mainly of adults, it would behoove you to behave in an adult manner.
posted by anapestic at 10:10 PM on July 20, 2005
Perhaps you're young and ignorant enough to be completely unaware of the historical associations of the word, but saying that there's nothing racist about it doesn't make it so. If you're going to hang out on a website that is comprised mainly of adults, it would behoove you to behave in an adult manner.
posted by anapestic at 10:10 PM on July 20, 2005
C.P. RELAX. It's not the end of the world and nobody hates you. It's obvious what happened. I'm like really fucking old too, almost 40, and I still have friends that say stuff to me like, "Yo, what up my nigga?".
It's pretty stupid though. Especially since I'm black, and now my kids ask me all the time what "nigger" is. Maybe you can explain to them since you are closer in age and have a grasp on the subject.
posted by snsranch at 10:13 PM on July 20, 2005
It's pretty stupid though. Especially since I'm black, and now my kids ask me all the time what "nigger" is. Maybe you can explain to them since you are closer in age and have a grasp on the subject.
posted by snsranch at 10:13 PM on July 20, 2005
Ugh. I think I give up on metafilter.
Who says progress can't happen?
posted by tweak at 10:17 PM on July 20, 2005
Who says progress can't happen?
posted by tweak at 10:17 PM on July 20, 2005
Citizen Premier writes "it might be prudent to mention now that I'm a teenager"
I thought that was quite well established at the beginning of this thread. Most other options would not have computers, Internet access and even if they had those they'd never think about becoming MeFi members. The few remaining options would not have your capacity for rational argument (ok, some would but I thought you deserved the benefit of the doubt). Therefore, teenager. QED, painlessly.
posted by nkyad at 10:22 PM on July 20, 2005
I thought that was quite well established at the beginning of this thread. Most other options would not have computers, Internet access and even if they had those they'd never think about becoming MeFi members. The few remaining options would not have your capacity for rational argument (ok, some would but I thought you deserved the benefit of the doubt). Therefore, teenager. QED, painlessly.
posted by nkyad at 10:22 PM on July 20, 2005
Who says progress can't happen?
posted by tweak at 10:17 PM PST on July 20 [!]
Ah, yes, progress. I mean, what? This kid is a typical racist Bush Youth. Raised on hypocracy nurtured by hatred. I think it might be time for a good old fashioned reverse-racial-bigoted-Mississippi-style LYNCHING!
posted by snsranch at 10:33 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by tweak at 10:17 PM PST on July 20 [!]
Ah, yes, progress. I mean, what? This kid is a typical racist Bush Youth. Raised on hypocracy nurtured by hatred. I think it might be time for a good old fashioned reverse-racial-bigoted-Mississippi-style LYNCHING!
posted by snsranch at 10:33 PM on July 20, 2005
I know it's offtopic but why didn't you just post this in the original thread instead of here on the grey? WTF?
posted by dobbs at 10:33 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by dobbs at 10:33 PM on July 20, 2005
A teenager, yes, but are you still trying to pass the sixth grade?
posted by caddis at 10:35 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by caddis at 10:35 PM on July 20, 2005
Ah, the irrepressible rashness of youth. This reminds me of the time I wrote a letter to Rainer Werner Fassbinder and accidentally signed it Dirty Stinking Kraut Johnson. He was still kind enough to summarize Berlin Alexanderplatz for my Comparative Postwar European Film Studies essay, but I think it made him less insightful about the homosexual subtext than he might have been.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 10:40 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by Armitage Shanks at 10:40 PM on July 20, 2005
caddis, do you catalogue my faults? If so I'd like to see the list. Maybe I can add some!
And dobbs, make me a manual.
posted by Citizen Premier at 10:43 PM on July 20, 2005
And dobbs, make me a manual.
posted by Citizen Premier at 10:43 PM on July 20, 2005
On second thought, maybe my sity isn't so tolerant.
posted by Citizen Premier at 10:47 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by Citizen Premier at 10:47 PM on July 20, 2005
oi, what a spelling error.
posted by Citizen Premier at 10:47 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by Citizen Premier at 10:47 PM on July 20, 2005
I'm white, freckles, and red hair, and only say 'the N word' when I'm around my black friends, in a joking, offhand manner. My mother and her brothers are very racist, and I deride them, and choose not to hang around them much. Is that bad?
posted by Balisong at 10:50 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by Balisong at 10:50 PM on July 20, 2005
That's "oy" not "oi."
It's a Yiddish thang, you wouldn't understand Citizen Goy.
posted by Dagobert at 10:53 PM on July 20, 2005
It's a Yiddish thang, you wouldn't understand Citizen Goy.
posted by Dagobert at 10:53 PM on July 20, 2005
The PP thread was the obvious troll of all time, I don't think this is quite so obvious. Sure, its inflammatory and was an incredibly stupid thing to do but hey, guess what, kids are stupid. Kids do really stupid things all the time.
Its part of the process and sometimes people get hurt in the process, sometimes they die. Nobody died and the only one hurt was a guy who's bright enough to realize that kid's make stupid assholish mistakes all the time.
This thread's also had some decent laughs in it, that's gotta count for something. Oh yeah, the Grey's not for laughing. Sorry, I'll put on my serious face now.
posted by fenriq at 10:54 PM on July 20, 2005
Its part of the process and sometimes people get hurt in the process, sometimes they die. Nobody died and the only one hurt was a guy who's bright enough to realize that kid's make stupid assholish mistakes all the time.
This thread's also had some decent laughs in it, that's gotta count for something. Oh yeah, the Grey's not for laughing. Sorry, I'll put on my serious face now.
posted by fenriq at 10:54 PM on July 20, 2005
Shanks, your pearl will probably get lost is this sea of mindlessness. Berlin AlexanderPlatz. I had almost forgotten the pain after all this years.
posted by nkyad at 10:56 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by nkyad at 10:56 PM on July 20, 2005
Well, I'm laughing over here, for what it's worth.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:03 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:03 PM on July 20, 2005
Oh my fucking hell, this is the weirdest thing I've read all day.
Also, Shanks, you floored me. Congratulations.
I have a copy of Berlin Alexanderplatz.
posted by gramschmidt at 11:51 PM on July 20, 2005
Also, Shanks, you floored me. Congratulations.
I have a copy of Berlin Alexanderplatz.
posted by gramschmidt at 11:51 PM on July 20, 2005
Eh, take it easy on the kid. He admitted his (incredibly fucking boneheaded) mistake. No need to beat him to death.
And as for you, Citizenwhatever, now might be a good time to learn that not every detail of an embarrassing story needs to be shared in order to convey the general flavor of the experience.
If you had posted that you wrote to Richard Lederer using "an inappropriate display name" then you would have likely escaped much of the venom you see on display here. The fact that you relate that particular detail of the story in such a matter-of-fact fashion makes you seem at least somewhat trollish.
In other words, it may be time to rethink that whole "I am an honest person with no shame" policy.
posted by Optamystic at 1:05 AM on July 21, 2005
And as for you, Citizenwhatever, now might be a good time to learn that not every detail of an embarrassing story needs to be shared in order to convey the general flavor of the experience.
If you had posted that you wrote to Richard Lederer using "an inappropriate display name" then you would have likely escaped much of the venom you see on display here. The fact that you relate that particular detail of the story in such a matter-of-fact fashion makes you seem at least somewhat trollish.
In other words, it may be time to rethink that whole "I am an honest person with no shame" policy.
posted by Optamystic at 1:05 AM on July 21, 2005
mefi confessional
I like the idea. Matt could start selling pardons. This could be big.
posted by johnny novak at 1:25 AM on July 21, 2005
I like the idea. Matt could start selling pardons. This could be big.
posted by johnny novak at 1:25 AM on July 21, 2005
ironically, in Sweden "CP" is a rather offensive slur for handicapped people. (from "cerebral paresis").
posted by mr.marx at 1:48 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by mr.marx at 1:48 AM on July 21, 2005
Dear Citizen Premier ... Please tell us that when you wrote your email message, you didn't mention Metafilter, and implicate the rest of us with your boneheaded racism.
posted by crunchland at 2:26 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by crunchland at 2:26 AM on July 21, 2005
I'm very impressed with Sitizen, he's shown dignity and restraint, whereas I'd have told caddis (in particular) to take a jump in more flowery Anglo-Saxon terms.
Also, I use (or used to, before I moved to White Man Central) the same potentially troubling vernacular. He's used it, unwittingly, in a very inappropriate situation and then misguidedly told the world, imagining it to be as open-minded as he is. This isn't a crime, it's a painful accident.
The word (that I can't now use) has lost its sting for proportions of a new generation because it's never been levelled against them with any malice. I may be fortunate to have been exposed to small cliques of colour-ignorant people as I've grown up, but I know for certain that, for some, the ghosts and weapons of the past are just stories and rust now.
He intended no insult, felt terrible when realising that he'd done just that and is now going to apologise - this is a good thing.
1 vote for Citizen Premier.
posted by NinjaPirate at 2:30 AM on July 21, 2005
Also, I use (or used to, before I moved to White Man Central) the same potentially troubling vernacular. He's used it, unwittingly, in a very inappropriate situation and then misguidedly told the world, imagining it to be as open-minded as he is. This isn't a crime, it's a painful accident.
The word (that I can't now use) has lost its sting for proportions of a new generation because it's never been levelled against them with any malice. I may be fortunate to have been exposed to small cliques of colour-ignorant people as I've grown up, but I know for certain that, for some, the ghosts and weapons of the past are just stories and rust now.
He intended no insult, felt terrible when realising that he'd done just that and is now going to apologise - this is a good thing.
1 vote for Citizen Premier.
posted by NinjaPirate at 2:30 AM on July 21, 2005
(I concede, without reserve, that context is essential and that if I received an unsolicited email from that address I'd be quite offended too)
posted by NinjaPirate at 2:34 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by NinjaPirate at 2:34 AM on July 21, 2005
Citizen Premier, you are a fuckwit. On the positive side, you are giving us all something to laugh at. When I read things like this and see the way teenagers behave, it makes me hope that I am not alive to see dickheads like you running the world.
But, for now, stick around - us old farts are enjoying watching you and your friends make fools of yourselves.
posted by dg at 3:26 AM on July 21, 2005
But, for now, stick around - us old farts are enjoying watching you and your friends make fools of yourselves.
posted by dg at 3:26 AM on July 21, 2005
Thank you NinjaPirate (and others who have been friendly or encouraging, like Paul K).
And to the others:
FUCK YOU!
posted by Citizen Premier at 3:42 AM on July 21, 2005
And to the others:
FUCK YOU!
posted by Citizen Premier at 3:42 AM on July 21, 2005
Dear Mathowie : Prime example of why age restrictions should be implemented on Metafilter sign ups.
posted by crunchland at 4:37 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by crunchland at 4:37 AM on July 21, 2005
Man I have got to stop reading this and do some work, but I can't help myself
posted by poppo at 4:51 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by poppo at 4:51 AM on July 21, 2005
This is all a bit beyond the pale, you are all acting like a bunch of barbarian philistines, so why not call a spade a spade.
You all (selected members) need to lighten the hell up. Granting certain words special powers will not help to eradicate negativity from society. Maybe Public Enemy, NWA and Quentin Tarrantino (to mention a few) have not done a great job of trivialising the word 'nigger', but as with any word it is the context and intent that cause damage. Whilst I would not use such a screen name myself, I can laugh at it without being a racist, supporting racism, or encouraging it in any way.
Language meaning changes over time and varies in acceptability. Removing all 'racist' phrases and words from the English language would be a fool's errand. Awareness is better than censorship.
posted by asok at 5:20 AM on July 21, 2005
You all (selected members) need to lighten the hell up. Granting certain words special powers will not help to eradicate negativity from society. Maybe Public Enemy, NWA and Quentin Tarrantino (to mention a few) have not done a great job of trivialising the word 'nigger', but as with any word it is the context and intent that cause damage. Whilst I would not use such a screen name myself, I can laugh at it without being a racist, supporting racism, or encouraging it in any way.
Language meaning changes over time and varies in acceptability. Removing all 'racist' phrases and words from the English language would be a fool's errand. Awareness is better than censorship.
posted by asok at 5:20 AM on July 21, 2005
Huh. I had no idea kids these days were so fucking stupid.
posted by selfnoise at 5:45 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by selfnoise at 5:45 AM on July 21, 2005
What the fuck? Why is this in MeTa?
Oh, wow. Live preview is freaky but cool!
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:53 AM on July 21, 2005
Oh, wow. Live preview is freaky but cool!
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:53 AM on July 21, 2005
You just know a sockpuppet with that [offensive] screenname is going to pop up...
posted by exlotuseater at 6:01 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by exlotuseater at 6:01 AM on July 21, 2005
Any non-black person's use of the n-word is suspect, always, in any context. We're not even remotely close to living in a colorblind society, no matter what a seventeen-year-old might claim. We live in a society (in the US, which is where CP is) where black men are dragged to death behind a pickup truck just because they're black. That word carries enormous cultural weight and it's going to continue to do so for a long time. And even if it truly has become neutral in a small segment of society (teens), that doesn't mean it's okay to use it elsewhere.
There may be lots of folk whose "lighten up, don't be so offended" complaints are genuine and good-hearted, but in my forty years of experience, 90% of the time that complaint is offered by an otherwise self-evident bigot. It's nauseating.
So, anyway, CP go the fuck away. And good riddance when you do. This is a piece of crap meta post, as well.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:06 AM on July 21, 2005
There may be lots of folk whose "lighten up, don't be so offended" complaints are genuine and good-hearted, but in my forty years of experience, 90% of the time that complaint is offered by an otherwise self-evident bigot. It's nauseating.
So, anyway, CP go the fuck away. And good riddance when you do. This is a piece of crap meta post, as well.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:06 AM on July 21, 2005
asok: You can be a barbarian or a philistine, but not both. Other than that, I agree with everything you say.
You guys are being real assholes, even by the standards of the normal MeTa assholery. It's not like this is a troll or anything. Someone did something stupid. Some people find it funny, some people stupid. (Or both, in my case!) Regardless
Next time one of the glorious 14kers gets in a tuff about how the influx of newbies is destroying the fabric of conversation in meta, I have but to point them to this: "You are an even bigger disgusting fuck than I ever imagined from your puerile comments here. Go away! I hope you never return to MeFi or any other place I ever frequent. Oh, and get some shame; you need it." Is this really - I mean really - an appropriate response? When someone makes a mistake, is upfront and contrite about it, and seeks to remedy their admitted mistake, is this really an appropriate response? Is venom and hostility ever the appropriate response to someone actually seeking to repair a self-acknowledged mistake? No.
Some of you should know better.
posted by absalom at 6:16 AM on July 21, 2005
You guys are being real assholes, even by the standards of the normal MeTa assholery. It's not like this is a troll or anything. Someone did something stupid. Some people find it funny, some people stupid. (Or both, in my case!) Regardless
Next time one of the glorious 14kers gets in a tuff about how the influx of newbies is destroying the fabric of conversation in meta, I have but to point them to this: "You are an even bigger disgusting fuck than I ever imagined from your puerile comments here. Go away! I hope you never return to MeFi or any other place I ever frequent. Oh, and get some shame; you need it." Is this really - I mean really - an appropriate response? When someone makes a mistake, is upfront and contrite about it, and seeks to remedy their admitted mistake, is this really an appropriate response? Is venom and hostility ever the appropriate response to someone actually seeking to repair a self-acknowledged mistake? No.
Some of you should know better.
posted by absalom at 6:16 AM on July 21, 2005
EB: "That word carries enormous cultural weight... if it truly has become neutral in a small segment of society (teens), that doesn't mean it's okay to use it elsewhere."
In your culture, yes, but not so much in young culture.
He didn't intend to use it outside of his own culture, it was a mistake, he regrets and will apologise for it.
"go the fuck away. And good riddance when you do. This is a piece of crap"
Read that again for me, please. It doesn't sound at all right coming from you and I'm sad to see it there.
Maybe this live preview gizmo is more dangerous than helpful - just a moment or two to think about what you've written used to be invaluable time to contemplate.
posted by NinjaPirate at 6:31 AM on July 21, 2005
In your culture, yes, but not so much in young culture.
He didn't intend to use it outside of his own culture, it was a mistake, he regrets and will apologise for it.
"go the fuck away. And good riddance when you do. This is a piece of crap"
Read that again for me, please. It doesn't sound at all right coming from you and I'm sad to see it there.
Maybe this live preview gizmo is more dangerous than helpful - just a moment or two to think about what you've written used to be invaluable time to contemplate.
posted by NinjaPirate at 6:31 AM on July 21, 2005
I'm not going to weigh in on the political, generational, or linguistic issues, because everyone else already has, but on a more practical note: Dude. Gmail accounts are free and everyone has 50 invites. Get one of those and keep your more august correspondence separate from the account you use to josh around with your buds on IM. Easy-peasy.
posted by matildaben at 6:36 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by matildaben at 6:36 AM on July 21, 2005
I'm like really fucking old too, almost 40, and I still have friends that say stuff to me like, "Yo, what up my nigga?".
I'm an extremely white guy and I've had black and Latin freinds greet me with this. Take it from this paddy-wop shufflin' blue-eyed devil, they're all just words. Attempting to police them just drives us deeper into authoritarianism.
posted by jonmc at 6:43 AM on July 21, 2005
I'm an extremely white guy and I've had black and Latin freinds greet me with this. Take it from this paddy-wop shufflin' blue-eyed devil, they're all just words. Attempting to police them just drives us deeper into authoritarianism.
posted by jonmc at 6:43 AM on July 21, 2005
However, it might be prudent to mention now that I'm a teenager
No kidding? Get some life experience and then come back in ten years.
posted by Rothko at 6:54 AM on July 21, 2005
No kidding? Get some life experience and then come back in ten years.
posted by Rothko at 6:54 AM on July 21, 2005
Perhaps someone should email Richard Lederer and explain that he was wrong to be offended. It's not like he knows much about words.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 6:57 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by Armitage Shanks at 6:57 AM on July 21, 2005
Loving the irony here -
caddis writes "You are an even bigger disgusting fuck..."
Ethereal Bligh writes "So, anyway, CP go the fuck away."
So it's ok for YOU to use offensive terms, just not CP (sorry Sweden). How can you write stuff like that and then not IMMEDIATELY see that not everyone views offensive words the same way? Some peopls (no one here, probably) would be tremendously offended by your liberal and unneccessary use of the word "fuck." Sure, the kid made a mistake because of context. But the fact that he was raised in a culture where that word has lost its sting simply doesn't say anything one way or another about his character. Now he's learning that such language is NOT always appropriate, and hopefully in the future will be more careful not to offend. And that DOES say something about his character.
Fuckin' chill.
posted by solotoro at 6:59 AM on July 21, 2005
caddis writes "You are an even bigger disgusting fuck..."
Ethereal Bligh writes "So, anyway, CP go the fuck away."
So it's ok for YOU to use offensive terms, just not CP (sorry Sweden). How can you write stuff like that and then not IMMEDIATELY see that not everyone views offensive words the same way? Some peopls (no one here, probably) would be tremendously offended by your liberal and unneccessary use of the word "fuck." Sure, the kid made a mistake because of context. But the fact that he was raised in a culture where that word has lost its sting simply doesn't say anything one way or another about his character. Now he's learning that such language is NOT always appropriate, and hopefully in the future will be more careful not to offend. And that DOES say something about his character.
Fuckin' chill.
posted by solotoro at 6:59 AM on July 21, 2005
You are a horrible monster and you should pray for death. Like, duh.
posted by darukaru at 7:21 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by darukaru at 7:21 AM on July 21, 2005
This is hilarious. The Youth of Today have eradicated racism, freeing them to use racist language without shame! And they're schooling us ole folks on how we don't understand the context of what they're saying!
Kids, I promise, you'll get how funny this is in fifteen years or so, trust me.
posted by soyjoy at 7:30 AM on July 21, 2005
Kids, I promise, you'll get how funny this is in fifteen years or so, trust me.
posted by soyjoy at 7:30 AM on July 21, 2005
Upon reflection, my initial comment was needlessly caustic. Sorry.
In my experience growing up in Virginia, this was not a word that intelligent people used.
I think I was reacting more to the fact that this was a useless, self-indulgent MeTa post, though.
posted by selfnoise at 7:43 AM on July 21, 2005
In my experience growing up in Virginia, this was not a word that intelligent people used.
I think I was reacting more to the fact that this was a useless, self-indulgent MeTa post, though.
posted by selfnoise at 7:43 AM on July 21, 2005
And to the others:
FUCK YOU!
Oh man, now you've ditched your remorse and you're going to lose your scant few supporters, too.
Matt, please obliviate drakepool.
posted by gramschmidt at 7:43 AM on July 21, 2005
FUCK YOU!
Oh man, now you've ditched your remorse and you're going to lose your scant few supporters, too.
Matt, please obliviate drakepool.
posted by gramschmidt at 7:43 AM on July 21, 2005
soyjoy, the words "bad" and "wicked" have come through similar processes (though from far less undesirable beginnings) courtesy of the young.
You seem unduly dismissive that the less educated (read "indoctrinated") can do things that you cannot. A sure sign of getting old, of course.
posted by NinjaPirate at 8:01 AM on July 21, 2005
You seem unduly dismissive that the less educated (read "indoctrinated") can do things that you cannot. A sure sign of getting old, of course.
posted by NinjaPirate at 8:01 AM on July 21, 2005
Citizen Premier writes "I'm going to be making racist jokes till I die, a few seconds from now when the angry metafites kill me."
No one from this site's going to kill you... we're just going to continue making snarky comments about you.
posted by clevershark at 8:16 AM on July 21, 2005
No one from this site's going to kill you... we're just going to continue making snarky comments about you.
posted by clevershark at 8:16 AM on July 21, 2005
Now he's learning that such language is NOT always appropriate, and hopefully in the future will be more careful not to offend.
I'd go even further: He KNOWS it's not always appropriate, and this was a simple slip up. I've changed my email display name as a joke (temporarily) and forgotten when I went to send a serious email. It was an accident, and that kind of stuff happens to us all.
If what you're really upset about is the use of the word "nigger", you guys need to tune in a rap station and have a listen. Or listen to Chris Rock's "comedy" act.
posted by knave at 8:17 AM on July 21, 2005
I'd go even further: He KNOWS it's not always appropriate, and this was a simple slip up. I've changed my email display name as a joke (temporarily) and forgotten when I went to send a serious email. It was an accident, and that kind of stuff happens to us all.
If what you're really upset about is the use of the word "nigger", you guys need to tune in a rap station and have a listen. Or listen to Chris Rock's "comedy" act.
posted by knave at 8:17 AM on July 21, 2005
soyjoy, the words "bad" and "wicked" have come through similar processes (though from far less undesirable beginnings) courtesy of the young.
What are you talking about? "Bad" means "not good," doesn't it? You mean there's some new slang meaning?
This is opening up a whole new world of language. Please un-indoctrinate me some more!
posted by soyjoy at 8:21 AM on July 21, 2005
What are you talking about? "Bad" means "not good," doesn't it? You mean there's some new slang meaning?
This is opening up a whole new world of language. Please un-indoctrinate me some more!
posted by soyjoy at 8:21 AM on July 21, 2005
The elderly have difficulty articulating sarcasm as well, I understand.
posted by NinjaPirate at 8:24 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by NinjaPirate at 8:24 AM on July 21, 2005
It's one thing to have used it in the original email, and quite another to use it here after already having been told that it was offensive and inappropriate.
It's a bit like showing up at a party wearing an offensive and inappropriate T-shirt. If you do that you shouldn't be surprised if everyone ignores you and thinks you're an ass.
posted by clevershark at 8:36 AM on July 21, 2005
It's a bit like showing up at a party wearing an offensive and inappropriate T-shirt. If you do that you shouldn't be surprised if everyone ignores you and thinks you're an ass.
posted by clevershark at 8:36 AM on July 21, 2005
The song "Apelle-Moi Noir," by the venerable Swamp Dogg is the last word on this subject IMHO.
posted by jonmc at 8:43 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by jonmc at 8:43 AM on July 21, 2005
If you don't like racist words and attitudes, if you hope that people who use those words and hold those attitudes will change, you speak up.
But then you need to give them room to learn, to grow, to change.
posted by spaghetti at 8:45 AM on July 21, 2005
But then you need to give them room to learn, to grow, to change.
posted by spaghetti at 8:45 AM on July 21, 2005
Well, the "fuck you" was a bit like an angy good bye, but I feel the need to correct your analagy; it's more like playing a video at a party and then discovering it's actually the one you used to record sex with your wife. It's not a conscious decision to offend, it's just showing something of yours you didn't mean to, in this case my sense of humor. And you can't blame someone for their sense of humor.
posted by Citizen Premier at 8:48 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by Citizen Premier at 8:48 AM on July 21, 2005
Some close-minded old folks once said:
You can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
posted by soyjoy at 8:50 AM on July 21, 2005
You can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
posted by soyjoy at 8:50 AM on July 21, 2005
Hey CP, you were doing well when you admitted that you screwed up and felt bad about it. If you keep defending yourself, you'll make the harsh responses look justified. Don't make those of us who are giving you the benefit of the doubt regret doing so, you won't get a second chance.
posted by spaghetti at 9:01 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by spaghetti at 9:01 AM on July 21, 2005
They also said
"I'm your only friend
I'm not your only friend
But I'm a little glowing friend
But really I'm not actually your friend
But I am"
posted by NinjaPirate at 9:08 AM on July 21, 2005
"I'm your only friend
I'm not your only friend
But I'm a little glowing friend
But really I'm not actually your friend
But I am"
posted by NinjaPirate at 9:08 AM on July 21, 2005
BITCH HIT MY TRUCK
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 9:26 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 9:26 AM on July 21, 2005
spaghetti writes "But then you need to give them room to learn, to grow, to change."
Sure, but when it's clear that they in no way feel that they have really done anything wrong (i.e. they see it as other people overreacting) there is very little hope there.
posted by clevershark at 9:45 AM on July 21, 2005
Sure, but when it's clear that they in no way feel that they have really done anything wrong (i.e. they see it as other people overreacting) there is very little hope there.
posted by clevershark at 9:45 AM on July 21, 2005
And you can't blame someone for their sense of humor.
You can't blame someone for their race, gender, ethnicity or sexual preference. You sure as hell CAN blame them for their sense of humor. Offending people in the name of "humor" is a choice for which you TOTALLY should be held accountable.
Could someone tell me when metatalk became the place for boasting, talking about member's life events and post follow-ups? I've seen a lot of this lately and it seems like chat filter with a whole lot of "I didn't know where else to post this." Seems like if you can't find a place to post it on MeFi, then it does not belong.
posted by necessitas at 10:06 AM on July 21, 2005
You can't blame someone for their race, gender, ethnicity or sexual preference. You sure as hell CAN blame them for their sense of humor. Offending people in the name of "humor" is a choice for which you TOTALLY should be held accountable.
Could someone tell me when metatalk became the place for boasting, talking about member's life events and post follow-ups? I've seen a lot of this lately and it seems like chat filter with a whole lot of "I didn't know where else to post this." Seems like if you can't find a place to post it on MeFi, then it does not belong.
posted by necessitas at 10:06 AM on July 21, 2005
Citizen Premier writes "it's more like playing a video at a party and then discovering it's actually the one you used to record sex with your wife. It's not a conscious decision to offend, it's just showing something of yours you didn't mean to, in this case my sense of humor. And you can't blame someone for their sense of humor."
Actually, it's a bit more like playing it for a party, all your friends getting offended, and then playing it for another group of friends so they could commiserate with you. When the second group gets offended they aren't out of line in thinking that you've had fair warning.
posted by OmieWise at 10:36 AM on July 21, 2005
Actually, it's a bit more like playing it for a party, all your friends getting offended, and then playing it for another group of friends so they could commiserate with you. When the second group gets offended they aren't out of line in thinking that you've had fair warning.
posted by OmieWise at 10:36 AM on July 21, 2005
OmieWise writes "Actually, it's a bit more like playing it for a party, all your friends getting offended, and then playing it for another group of friends so they could commiserate with you."
And all that without the added benefit of having had actual sex with an actual woman.
And to keep the analogy, what seems to be happening here is that when the second group gets offended you claim you're only joking about it the first time around, so it must be ok because you're not really a jerk, you just pretend to be one.
posted by nkyad at 10:52 AM on July 21, 2005
And all that without the added benefit of having had actual sex with an actual woman.
And to keep the analogy, what seems to be happening here is that when the second group gets offended you claim you're only joking about it the first time around, so it must be ok because you're not really a jerk, you just pretend to be one.
posted by nkyad at 10:52 AM on July 21, 2005
Has the "n" word ever left my lips? Not that I recall. But tell me no other mefites did stupid things at, what 17 or so? Yeah, he was stupid enough to be explicit (honest?) to mefites about his mistake. Do you think he's going to do that again? CP comes across as smart enough to learn his lesson, so, probably not.
Age restrictions wouldn't help anything. Maturity has nothing to do with age.
posted by deborah at 10:55 AM on July 21, 2005
Age restrictions wouldn't help anything. Maturity has nothing to do with age.
posted by deborah at 10:55 AM on July 21, 2005
I'm pretty sure that GTA: San Andreas is to blame.
posted by crunchland at 11:07 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by crunchland at 11:07 AM on July 21, 2005
CP, look - you fucked up, and made a public apology about it. That was good and noble, and I commend you for it.
In point of fact, the public apology was probably unnecessary - although it might have made Mr. Lederer a little more forgiving at heart to know that it was an honest mistake. But you need to know that the mistake was not in failing to change your From: alias. It was in having a juvenile, and offensive sense of humour.
Now, I say this as someone who has a juvenile and offensive sense of humour - I think it's funny to make jokes about racism (or generic bigotry) itself, and do so about various hilariously stupid stereotypes: stupid white boys who are culturally illiterate outside of their canon of authors; pretentious academics with no sense of humour; homosexuals; quakers; prominent international intellectuals; members of the south-asian subcontinent and occasionally brown people in general. Now, I don't belong (obviously) to all of these groups, but I'm comfortable with my understanding of them to find them each rather funny. Each of them has an odd protective shield around it that is hilarious to parody, and I do so.
But there is a limit. Jokes are only really funny if you're making fun of yourself. You can make fun of your own personality, your own culture, your own family, your own race - and you can also make fun of your own stereotypes and racist impulses. I think this is what you were doing, really; deconstructing something retched by becoming it, a bit. In this last case, however, you have to understand that anyone who doesn't know you well will NOT get the joke. You will, instead, be a racist prick.
And that's what you have to live with, here. What you did is most easily understood as the actions of a racist prick, with sympathy for the brutality of that cultural history. Until you convince us otherwise, that's how we'll see ya.
Sadly, the "but Jay-Z says it so I can too!" defense won't help you here. Your reference was "that movie about the young neo-nazis", not the Black album. I make fun of neo-nazis too, although they aren't really all that funny. The problem is that we can't tell whose side you're on.
Look, just apologize again to let us know that you're not actually sympathizing with the nazi kids. The ribbing you're getting here is part of your punishment, so stop defending yourself; you started out with a mea culpa, and you should finish with one and let it go.
And do be careful with bad jokes - they're only funny because they're so awful.
posted by metaculpa at 11:14 AM on July 21, 2005
In point of fact, the public apology was probably unnecessary - although it might have made Mr. Lederer a little more forgiving at heart to know that it was an honest mistake. But you need to know that the mistake was not in failing to change your From: alias. It was in having a juvenile, and offensive sense of humour.
Now, I say this as someone who has a juvenile and offensive sense of humour - I think it's funny to make jokes about racism (or generic bigotry) itself, and do so about various hilariously stupid stereotypes: stupid white boys who are culturally illiterate outside of their canon of authors; pretentious academics with no sense of humour; homosexuals; quakers; prominent international intellectuals; members of the south-asian subcontinent and occasionally brown people in general. Now, I don't belong (obviously) to all of these groups, but I'm comfortable with my understanding of them to find them each rather funny. Each of them has an odd protective shield around it that is hilarious to parody, and I do so.
But there is a limit. Jokes are only really funny if you're making fun of yourself. You can make fun of your own personality, your own culture, your own family, your own race - and you can also make fun of your own stereotypes and racist impulses. I think this is what you were doing, really; deconstructing something retched by becoming it, a bit. In this last case, however, you have to understand that anyone who doesn't know you well will NOT get the joke. You will, instead, be a racist prick.
And that's what you have to live with, here. What you did is most easily understood as the actions of a racist prick, with sympathy for the brutality of that cultural history. Until you convince us otherwise, that's how we'll see ya.
Sadly, the "but Jay-Z says it so I can too!" defense won't help you here. Your reference was "that movie about the young neo-nazis", not the Black album. I make fun of neo-nazis too, although they aren't really all that funny. The problem is that we can't tell whose side you're on.
Look, just apologize again to let us know that you're not actually sympathizing with the nazi kids. The ribbing you're getting here is part of your punishment, so stop defending yourself; you started out with a mea culpa, and you should finish with one and let it go.
And do be careful with bad jokes - they're only funny because they're so awful.
posted by metaculpa at 11:14 AM on July 21, 2005
I thought "Nigger Stole My Truck," was a reference to the scene in Goodfellas.
posted by jonmc at 11:58 AM on July 21, 2005
posted by jonmc at 11:58 AM on July 21, 2005
Could someone tell me when metatalk became the place for boasting, talking about member's life events and post follow-ups?
Well, it wasn't before dsandler joined.
posted by y2karl at 12:06 PM on July 21, 2005
Well, it wasn't before dsandler joined.
posted by y2karl at 12:06 PM on July 21, 2005
There are a large number of black people, probably a majority, who are very offended when a non-black person uses the n-word. There are a large number of non-white people, in some areas the majority, who use the n-word regularly, venemously, and with the utmost contempt for black people.
Until those two things are no longer true, non-blacks have no right to use the word and claim "no offense intended". There is no more to say on the subject.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:20 PM on July 21, 2005
Until those two things are no longer true, non-blacks have no right to use the word and claim "no offense intended". There is no more to say on the subject.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:20 PM on July 21, 2005
See, what you all fail to grasp is that "Afro-American Male Borrowed My Utility Automobile Without Asking" just doesn't get the point across succinctly enough.
In all seriousness, I tend to subscribe to the George Carlin / asok school of thought, e.g. the words themselves do not (or should not, anyway) carry the entirety of the venom themselves, but derive much of it from the context they're used in.
Unfortunately, unless everyone else agrees with this, you're still going to offend people when using stigmatized words. Most humans have a very poor ability to correctly judge context and meaning, and that tendency is obviously exascerbated with racist and similar slang.
I don't believe this issue is nearly as clear-cut as anyone seems to think...you cannot categorically say that anyone using the word "nigger" is a racist shitwad regardless of background and context, but neither can you say that it's 100% okay to use such a loaded word in polite company so long as you "don't mean it".
In the end, the only thing that should matter is what someone intends, or what their character is like. If they make a colossal screw-up during communication, well, that sucks, but to become so enraged at someone for making a mistake and to assume the worst about them based on that one mistake, without really knowing them, isn't really what I'd call "classy". Slightly understandable, but still...just chill. When he spray-paints the word on a black couple's doorstep, then you should get upset.
posted by cyrusdogstar at 12:43 PM on July 21, 2005
In all seriousness, I tend to subscribe to the George Carlin / asok school of thought, e.g. the words themselves do not (or should not, anyway) carry the entirety of the venom themselves, but derive much of it from the context they're used in.
Unfortunately, unless everyone else agrees with this, you're still going to offend people when using stigmatized words. Most humans have a very poor ability to correctly judge context and meaning, and that tendency is obviously exascerbated with racist and similar slang.
I don't believe this issue is nearly as clear-cut as anyone seems to think...you cannot categorically say that anyone using the word "nigger" is a racist shitwad regardless of background and context, but neither can you say that it's 100% okay to use such a loaded word in polite company so long as you "don't mean it".
In the end, the only thing that should matter is what someone intends, or what their character is like. If they make a colossal screw-up during communication, well, that sucks, but to become so enraged at someone for making a mistake and to assume the worst about them based on that one mistake, without really knowing them, isn't really what I'd call "classy". Slightly understandable, but still...just chill. When he spray-paints the word on a black couple's doorstep, then you should get upset.
posted by cyrusdogstar at 12:43 PM on July 21, 2005
CP: You fucked up. Apologize to Mr. Lederer.
Critical MeFier's: Give the kid a break. He made a mistake and seems to feel like it was a real dumbass move. His post seems to be in the vein of "confession is good for the soul".
posted by Carbolic at 12:50 PM on July 21, 2005
Critical MeFier's: Give the kid a break. He made a mistake and seems to feel like it was a real dumbass move. His post seems to be in the vein of "confession is good for the soul".
posted by Carbolic at 12:50 PM on July 21, 2005
Have we ascertained if the gentleman got his truck back?
/The whole world is waiting
posted by haqspan at 1:05 PM on July 21, 2005
/The whole world is waiting
posted by haqspan at 1:05 PM on July 21, 2005
cyrusdogstar-
Your desire for nuance is admirable, but Carlin and those who suggest that the words don't carry that much weight because they're just words fail to account for the history carried within the words. CP may want to just make a joke among friends, people here may want to defend him against the uptight people who find his sense of humor lacking at best, but the fact remains that it was only a few short decades ago that race quit literally was destiny in the US. In many ways it still is, but in the interests of not engaging in a conversation about the (very evident) prevalence of racism in the US today, I'll just put it into a past easy to digest as something for which we need not take responsibility. Sure, context is important, but the context in this case is that the word n---- had a physical threat behind it for most of the 20th century.
posted by OmieWise at 4:49 PM on July 21, 2005
Your desire for nuance is admirable, but Carlin and those who suggest that the words don't carry that much weight because they're just words fail to account for the history carried within the words. CP may want to just make a joke among friends, people here may want to defend him against the uptight people who find his sense of humor lacking at best, but the fact remains that it was only a few short decades ago that race quit literally was destiny in the US. In many ways it still is, but in the interests of not engaging in a conversation about the (very evident) prevalence of racism in the US today, I'll just put it into a past easy to digest as something for which we need not take responsibility. Sure, context is important, but the context in this case is that the word n---- had a physical threat behind it for most of the 20th century.
posted by OmieWise at 4:49 PM on July 21, 2005
"Nigger : The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word"
by Randall Kennedy (Professor of Law, Harvard Law School)
by Randall Kennedy (Professor of Law, Harvard Law School)
"In the pantheon of words as weapons, the nefarious 'n word' is the linguistic kin of the atom bomb. No one much cares about its origins, the Latin word for 'black,' because when it comes to that word, 'nigger,' context trumps etymology. 'Nigger as insult' was likely popularized by 19th century American slave owners. Ever since, its mere utterance unleashes a cascade of history, and hurt. Oppression, discrimination, and racism lurk there in two simple syllables. So does controversy, the latest of which has been stirred by Harvard Law professor Randall Kennedy, whose new book makes the case for defanging the word, by fearing it less. Not everyone thinks that's such a good idea."posted by ericb at 4:57 PM on July 21, 2005
[The Connection | NPR Interview | January 9, 2002]
It's not like it's a switch you can turn on and off. The fact that youths seem to think it's not such a bad thing is encouraging, I guess. Richard Lederer, the recipient of this email, obviously isn't young enough to let it slide, and neither are many of the people who responded to this thread. Until all of us old fogeys die off, the suburban white teens of today will have to be more careful where the get all hip-hoppy on our asses.
posted by crunchland at 5:24 PM on July 21, 2005
posted by crunchland at 5:24 PM on July 21, 2005
Taking a cue from Leprechaun 6: Back in Da Hood, I use the word ninja instead of the other. Try it. It works.
posted by euphorb at 8:14 PM on July 21, 2005
posted by euphorb at 8:14 PM on July 21, 2005
I know what you're thinkin', you're thinkin 'Uh-oh, looks like we got ourselves another crazy NINJA with a gun'. Well let me tell you, human life means very little to me at this point. You see, I thrive on misery. In the jungle misery was all we had, but back here in the 'real world' nobody wants to talk about misery--and pain. Everybody wants everything to be nice--and civil. Well alright, let's be nice--let's be civil--and let's drop those guns before I pull this trigger and change the way you feel about me.
eh. not sure that it works.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 8:45 PM on July 21, 2005
eh. not sure that it works.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 8:45 PM on July 21, 2005
You never drop the n-bomb with your friends?
Sure I do, though it's dangerous territory. Way back in the days before cell phones and caller ID, I had a roommate who would amuse himself by answering our ringing telephone with "Nigger Emporium, how may I help you?" That was just dumb.
But no recriminations. You obviously understand your mistake.
posted by scarabic at 12:32 AM on July 22, 2005
Sure I do, though it's dangerous territory. Way back in the days before cell phones and caller ID, I had a roommate who would amuse himself by answering our ringing telephone with "Nigger Emporium, how may I help you?" That was just dumb.
But no recriminations. You obviously understand your mistake.
posted by scarabic at 12:32 AM on July 22, 2005
In all seriousness, I tend to subscribe to the George Carlin / asok school of thought, e.g. the words themselves do not (or should not, anyway) carry the entirety of the venom themselves, but derive much of it from the context they're used in.
Ah-yup. Words aren't racist. The people who use them may or may not be. Sometimes, they may also be big dumb-dumbs. That's where the comedy (that is, tragedy with its eyes crossed and a funny hat) comes in!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:39 AM on July 22, 2005
Ah-yup. Words aren't racist. The people who use them may or may not be. Sometimes, they may also be big dumb-dumbs. That's where the comedy (that is, tragedy with its eyes crossed and a funny hat) comes in!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:39 AM on July 22, 2005
In the end, the only thing that should matter is what someone intends, or what their character is like. If they make a colossal screw-up during communication, well, that sucks, but to become so enraged at someone for making a mistake and to assume the worst about them based on that one mistake, without really knowing them, isn't really what I'd call "classy". Slightly understandable, but still...just chill. When he spray-paints the word on a black couple's doorstep, then you should get upset.
Yeah, I agree with cyrusdogstar. People are racist, words are not. But it's not always easy to sort the one from the other in real life.
So, anyway, CP go the fuck away. And good riddance when you do.
Keith, what happened to the thoughtful, civil Ethereal Bligh? Your comments lately have seemed unusually closed-minded and judgmental. It's making me sad.
posted by gd779 at 4:29 AM on July 22, 2005
Yeah, I agree with cyrusdogstar. People are racist, words are not. But it's not always easy to sort the one from the other in real life.
So, anyway, CP go the fuck away. And good riddance when you do.
Keith, what happened to the thoughtful, civil Ethereal Bligh? Your comments lately have seemed unusually closed-minded and judgmental. It's making me sad.
posted by gd779 at 4:29 AM on July 22, 2005
I don't feel comfortable using the n-word, Carlin, Lenny Bruce, asok & CP notwithstanding. My neighbors of nearly twenty years--African Americans in the current parlance--feel free to use it with me; I could hardly look or be more northern European.
That said, and as one who also studies language and its uses, I am far less troubled by CP than by the continued racism in society, where a black man has a better chance of getting stopped for DWB than he does of getting a shot at a management gig.
My advice is to lighten up on CP--he's already heard all of the invectives and one more won't help his understanding; instead, work to change your neighborhood or place of work. Mentor black youth. Recruit them to work at your company. We do NOT need a "color-blind" society. We need a society that values all people and encourages participation by all.
posted by beelzbubba at 7:16 AM on July 22, 2005
That said, and as one who also studies language and its uses, I am far less troubled by CP than by the continued racism in society, where a black man has a better chance of getting stopped for DWB than he does of getting a shot at a management gig.
My advice is to lighten up on CP--he's already heard all of the invectives and one more won't help his understanding; instead, work to change your neighborhood or place of work. Mentor black youth. Recruit them to work at your company. We do NOT need a "color-blind" society. We need a society that values all people and encourages participation by all.
posted by beelzbubba at 7:16 AM on July 22, 2005
yeah, like that's ever going to happen.
posted by crunchland at 8:12 AM on July 22, 2005
posted by crunchland at 8:12 AM on July 22, 2005
gd779: I've been in a bad mood. Also, though I do think that I am an unusually reasonable person, I certainly wouldn't characterize myself as "non-judgmental". In the US, we're so far from being a culture where the n-word no longer is deeply hurtful that I find justifications of its use to be very risible.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:09 PM on July 22, 2005
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:09 PM on July 22, 2005
Well, okay then. I hope whatever is causing your bad mood gets better for you soon.
posted by gd779 at 4:34 PM on July 22, 2005
posted by gd779 at 4:34 PM on July 22, 2005
Oh, please. EB can apologize all he wants, but it's not "closed-minded" or "judgmental" to heartlessly mock any white person who thinks "nigger" is some trivial 21st-century hipsterism.
posted by soyjoy at 7:31 PM on July 23, 2005
posted by soyjoy at 7:31 PM on July 23, 2005
I agree. I wasn't apologing for being intolerant--I was apologing for being nastily intolerant. If I was apologizing, and I don't know that I was.
One thing that no one has mentioned and that is a deal-breaker for me, is that the increasing acceptability of the use of the n-word is not due to a deliberate campaign to claim the word by black activists. Instead, it's more driven by an internalization of the term by the most oppressed members of the class. That's cringe-worthy enough; but non-black people being casual about its use as part of a middle-class adoption of underclass black culture is beyond the pale. It's the farthest thing from a move to eliminate racism; it is a reification of the institution of racism and the latest in a long history of cultural appropriation.
Anyone tempted to disregard that paragraph as PC-claptrap should consider that I'm a 40 year old, well-informed white male who attended, and strongly supports, a "Great Books" school. I'm not the least orthodox with regard to PCism. It's just my analysis from the experience and education of my adult life. Racism against black people is still very, very real. As said above, it is only the stupendously naive and narrowly-experienced young who would claim otherwise.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:39 PM on July 24, 2005
One thing that no one has mentioned and that is a deal-breaker for me, is that the increasing acceptability of the use of the n-word is not due to a deliberate campaign to claim the word by black activists. Instead, it's more driven by an internalization of the term by the most oppressed members of the class. That's cringe-worthy enough; but non-black people being casual about its use as part of a middle-class adoption of underclass black culture is beyond the pale. It's the farthest thing from a move to eliminate racism; it is a reification of the institution of racism and the latest in a long history of cultural appropriation.
Anyone tempted to disregard that paragraph as PC-claptrap should consider that I'm a 40 year old, well-informed white male who attended, and strongly supports, a "Great Books" school. I'm not the least orthodox with regard to PCism. It's just my analysis from the experience and education of my adult life. Racism against black people is still very, very real. As said above, it is only the stupendously naive and narrowly-experienced young who would claim otherwise.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:39 PM on July 24, 2005
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I would be offended by that email address, too.
posted by Dr. Wu at 8:49 PM on July 20, 2005