Self-promotion on weblogs January 11, 2002 8:06 PM Subscribe
Winer's weblog down temporarily to plug new product. I was quite surprised to see the weblog gone.. and a product ad in my face.
Since it's his work and his site, it's fine ;-) But it made me think.. is there such a thing as a weblog becoming too self-promotional? Or is this a perfect use for weblogs in a society where we're all screaming for attention?
Since it's his work and his site, it's fine ;-) But it made me think.. is there such a thing as a weblog becoming too self-promotional? Or is this a perfect use for weblogs in a society where we're all screaming for attention?
As far as I'm concerned, Winer can do anything he likes with his server as long as he doesn't break any applicable laws.
posted by Steven Den Beste at 8:57 PM on January 11, 2002
posted by Steven Den Beste at 8:57 PM on January 11, 2002
I don't see anything wrong with it. Winer's weblog always was an advertisement anyhow.
posted by majick at 8:58 PM on January 11, 2002
posted by majick at 8:58 PM on January 11, 2002
there are a ton of radio weblogs showing up on weblogs.com. thing is, most of them are empty....
posted by rebeccablood at 9:09 PM on January 11, 2002
posted by rebeccablood at 9:09 PM on January 11, 2002
I don't think the question being asked is "is he allowed?" The question is "is there such thing as a weblog becoming too self-promotional?"
And the answer, of course, is in the eye of the reader. If you find a weblogger's writing to be too anything, you just stop reading.
The weblog writer is gifted an enormous amount of freedom -- the ability to self-promote being on the top of that list. Because of this, personal weblogs are hardly a source of impartial news.
This impartiality is precisely the reason why webloggers should not be consider traditional journalists. So, you can say all you what about yourself and your product and your life on your weblog, but don't expect a press badge for keynote speech.
Now, what about an advertisement masquerading as a community service?
posted by mgtrott at 9:24 PM on January 11, 2002
And the answer, of course, is in the eye of the reader. If you find a weblogger's writing to be too anything, you just stop reading.
The weblog writer is gifted an enormous amount of freedom -- the ability to self-promote being on the top of that list. Because of this, personal weblogs are hardly a source of impartial news.
This impartiality is precisely the reason why webloggers should not be consider traditional journalists. So, you can say all you what about yourself and your product and your life on your weblog, but don't expect a press badge for keynote speech.
Now, what about an advertisement masquerading as a community service?
posted by mgtrott at 9:24 PM on January 11, 2002
an advertisement that is portrayed as a community service seems pretty slimy to me, but i suppose it's all subjective. i guess that it all depends on if you feel comfortable with what an author says or plugs.
posted by moz at 9:33 PM on January 11, 2002
posted by moz at 9:33 PM on January 11, 2002
As an ad, though, this thing leaves quite a bit to be desired: A big gigantic "O" or some such fills the page. Clicking on it takes the reader directly to the download page for a product. That page says nothing whatsoever about what the product actually does.
Probability I will be enticed to download the file as a result: None.
Odds that I will pay my hard-earned cash for a file I won't download: Zero
posted by majick at 11:53 PM on January 11, 2002
Probability I will be enticed to download the file as a result: None.
Odds that I will pay my hard-earned cash for a file I won't download: Zero
posted by majick at 11:53 PM on January 11, 2002
As to the question of if a weblog -- or anyone's service or content -- can be "too anything?"
No. Unless I have some sort of controlling interest in a site, the only negative reaction to come out of me will be to turn my attention elsewhere. Dave wants to put a giant zero linked to a dodgy download? Go nuts, Dave. It's "too something" -- too ridiculous -- for me, but that doesn't make it inherently bad, only bad in my opinion. Lots of things are bad in my opinion, but my opinion doesn't affect their nature, only reflect it.
posted by majick at 12:00 AM on January 12, 2002
No. Unless I have some sort of controlling interest in a site, the only negative reaction to come out of me will be to turn my attention elsewhere. Dave wants to put a giant zero linked to a dodgy download? Go nuts, Dave. It's "too something" -- too ridiculous -- for me, but that doesn't make it inherently bad, only bad in my opinion. Lots of things are bad in my opinion, but my opinion doesn't affect their nature, only reflect it.
posted by majick at 12:00 AM on January 12, 2002
The best product of a weblog Bloggie is still up for grabs. Consider Radio to be like a MeFi t-shirt, your own Dave souvenir.
posted by anildash at 1:56 AM on January 12, 2002
posted by anildash at 1:56 AM on January 12, 2002
That page says nothing whatsoever about what the product actually does. Odds that I will pay my hard-earned cash for a file I won't download: Zero
Sheesh. There are several links describing Radio Userland, if you're interested in the product. I haven't used the current version yet, but I was addicted to the tool when it was still focusing on music playback last year.
Radio Userland can be useful if you like scripting, want client software to publish a weblog, need an RSS newsfeed reader, or want to write some hacks to move data around via FTP, HTTP, RSS, XML, or XML-RPC.
posted by rcade at 6:42 AM on January 12, 2002
Sheesh. There are several links describing Radio Userland, if you're interested in the product. I haven't used the current version yet, but I was addicted to the tool when it was still focusing on music playback last year.
Radio Userland can be useful if you like scripting, want client software to publish a weblog, need an RSS newsfeed reader, or want to write some hacks to move data around via FTP, HTTP, RSS, XML, or XML-RPC.
posted by rcade at 6:42 AM on January 12, 2002
I think that's the best thing Dave's ever done.
Just to be clear, I meant the ad, not the app. The app seems to have some UI issues, which isn't surprising.
posted by jkottke at 8:40 AM on January 12, 2002
Just to be clear, I meant the ad, not the app. The app seems to have some UI issues, which isn't surprising.
posted by jkottke at 8:40 AM on January 12, 2002
The vast majority of regular Scripting News readers both already know what UserLand's products do and already know if they want them or not, I would think. It's more announcement than advertisement.
posted by markpasc at 9:24 AM on January 12, 2002
posted by markpasc at 9:24 AM on January 12, 2002
rcade: Sheesh.
I don't think it's unreasonable to click an advertisement and be expecting an explanation of some kind. Instead it's a download page, from which further exploration has to take place in order to discover WTF is going on because there is not one whit whatsoever of description of the product on the download page. Not even an en passant sort of "Download WidgetBonk, the final word in widget organization solutions" marketing hyperbole.
The point I'm making is that it's a pretty poorly designed ad link, if the purpose of the link is to get me to download a piece of software and then emit dollars in exchange. Take me to a "What's this?" page for my clickthrough and make a sales pitch, especially since I'm clicking through an impenetrably mysterious gigantic circle and probably already confused.
markpasc: The vast majority of regular Scripting News readers...
I don't number among them, alas. I show up once in a while to snicker behind my hand, like many others, but I'm not a regular reader. Therefore, whatever minimal effectiveness the ad was supposed to have was even further diminished by the fact that I had no idea what was going on. It's merely that it was a poor user experience, and I wanted to point it out.
posted by majick at 11:03 AM on January 12, 2002
I don't think it's unreasonable to click an advertisement and be expecting an explanation of some kind. Instead it's a download page, from which further exploration has to take place in order to discover WTF is going on because there is not one whit whatsoever of description of the product on the download page. Not even an en passant sort of "Download WidgetBonk, the final word in widget organization solutions" marketing hyperbole.
The point I'm making is that it's a pretty poorly designed ad link, if the purpose of the link is to get me to download a piece of software and then emit dollars in exchange. Take me to a "What's this?" page for my clickthrough and make a sales pitch, especially since I'm clicking through an impenetrably mysterious gigantic circle and probably already confused.
markpasc: The vast majority of regular Scripting News readers...
I don't number among them, alas. I show up once in a while to snicker behind my hand, like many others, but I'm not a regular reader. Therefore, whatever minimal effectiveness the ad was supposed to have was even further diminished by the fact that I had no idea what was going on. It's merely that it was a poor user experience, and I wanted to point it out.
posted by majick at 11:03 AM on January 12, 2002
More to the point, because I have a way of failing to make those:
For all I know, it's a fine and dandy product, but the pitch for it leaves a pretty poor impression of the whole outfit. Dave wants to run an ad for a product, that's fine with me -- I might even click on it, like I did -- but I honestly think he could have done a better and more effective job of it with very little effort.
I clicked the ad and wandered away yawning, actually under the impression that yet another media player or stream server or something was being pitched at me. All I knew was there was something called "Radio Userland" and it was downloadable now, and I could pay for it. I know that kind of minimal information about a lot of software I have no intention of using, so there was nothing there to entice me to go further.
The description above is the most information I've received about this product, and if I were handing out free advice, I'd tell Dave to cut and paste it to the top of the linked download page. rcade has advertised more effectively for the product than Dave has, already.
It sounds like a Perl you get to pay for, so I'm not terribly interested, but at least now I know that.
posted by majick at 11:16 AM on January 12, 2002
There are several links describing Radio Userland, if you're interested in the product.I don't know if I'm interested in the product unless it's described in at least the vaguest terms to me, and I'm not going to go play hide and seek with that information on those "several links" after already taking the trouble to click through on an ad that doesn't actually explain what I'm about to see, either.
For all I know, it's a fine and dandy product, but the pitch for it leaves a pretty poor impression of the whole outfit. Dave wants to run an ad for a product, that's fine with me -- I might even click on it, like I did -- but I honestly think he could have done a better and more effective job of it with very little effort.
I clicked the ad and wandered away yawning, actually under the impression that yet another media player or stream server or something was being pitched at me. All I knew was there was something called "Radio Userland" and it was downloadable now, and I could pay for it. I know that kind of minimal information about a lot of software I have no intention of using, so there was nothing there to entice me to go further.
The description above is the most information I've received about this product, and if I were handing out free advice, I'd tell Dave to cut and paste it to the top of the linked download page. rcade has advertised more effectively for the product than Dave has, already.
It sounds like a Perl you get to pay for, so I'm not terribly interested, but at least now I know that.
posted by majick at 11:16 AM on January 12, 2002
Is it so wrong for a guy to turn his weblog into a big 8 for a day when the new version of his product ships? Hell, I'd probably do the same. I can't quite see what the problem would be here.
posted by moss at 2:53 PM on January 12, 2002
posted by moss at 2:53 PM on January 12, 2002
The point I'm making is that it's a pretty poorly designed ad link, if the purpose of the link is to get me to download a piece of software and then emit dollars in exchange.
Perhaps, but the big "8" seems more like a late-night, thank-God-we're-done gesture than a carefully planned marketing campaign. In my opinion, even a professional media campaign would have trouble explaining Radio Userland -- it's odd software with a name that has nothing whatsoever to do with its functionality any more.
After spending an inordinate amount of time figuring it out last year, I think it's a great hacker's tool once you master the user interface. The main downside to older versions -- I haven't tried 8 yet -- is that it has been a big-time resource hog on my Windows 2000 systems.
posted by rcade at 4:45 PM on January 12, 2002
Perhaps, but the big "8" seems more like a late-night, thank-God-we're-done gesture than a carefully planned marketing campaign. In my opinion, even a professional media campaign would have trouble explaining Radio Userland -- it's odd software with a name that has nothing whatsoever to do with its functionality any more.
After spending an inordinate amount of time figuring it out last year, I think it's a great hacker's tool once you master the user interface. The main downside to older versions -- I haven't tried 8 yet -- is that it has been a big-time resource hog on my Windows 2000 systems.
posted by rcade at 4:45 PM on January 12, 2002
moss: Is it so wrong...?
I think we've reached universal agreement that it's not wrong whatsoever. A guy paying his own way is certainly entitled to do as he likes, and Winer's not doing this on anyone's back.
In reality, if put in the same position, I can guarantee I'd do no better at marketing/celebrating/announcing than he did this time around. Most likely, the result would be far worse. But it's easy to take the cheap shot from up here in the peanut gallery.
rcade: ...even a professional media campaign would have trouble explaining...
You did a perfectly acceptable job of it up above, and you sure don't look like a media campaign. Sure, you didn't cover it in any depth, but just the act of listing a few things it's good for is more than Dave managed to do without requiring additional hunting around.
I'm now done spamming this thread. I promise.
posted by majick at 10:01 PM on January 12, 2002
I think we've reached universal agreement that it's not wrong whatsoever. A guy paying his own way is certainly entitled to do as he likes, and Winer's not doing this on anyone's back.
In reality, if put in the same position, I can guarantee I'd do no better at marketing/celebrating/announcing than he did this time around. Most likely, the result would be far worse. But it's easy to take the cheap shot from up here in the peanut gallery.
rcade: ...even a professional media campaign would have trouble explaining...
You did a perfectly acceptable job of it up above, and you sure don't look like a media campaign. Sure, you didn't cover it in any depth, but just the act of listing a few things it's good for is more than Dave managed to do without requiring additional hunting around.
I'm now done spamming this thread. I promise.
posted by majick at 10:01 PM on January 12, 2002
rcade is right. I played with Radio a bit, and I never really did figure out exactly what it was intended to do or the conceptual logic behind it all. Initially intriguing, ultimately vexing, like its creator.
posted by rodii at 10:25 PM on January 12, 2002
posted by rodii at 10:25 PM on January 12, 2002
First, thanks for the flow.
Second, of course it was an advertisement, if people buy the product I get to keep my team so we can make the software better.
It was also a celebration. Whew. Shipped that. Now we switch gears. I've never seen a product ship that way. We could see in real time what the users were doing with it, minutes after we flipped the switch.
There's nothing wrong with some excitement. Try it you might like it. When you spend as much time working towards a milestone we have it's worth doing something nutty and stunning to mark the moment. Our community is entitled to celebrate too. Some of them have stood by us through some incredibly awful buggy glitchy difficult unusable version. Let loose scream from the top of the hill -- it shipped glad that's over!
That the usual people here would sling shit on our celebration is not unusual -- I would be surprised if you didn't. And thanks to Rogers and Mark and Anil (I can't believe that!) for sticking up for me.
posted by davewiner at 10:43 PM on January 12, 2002
Second, of course it was an advertisement, if people buy the product I get to keep my team so we can make the software better.
It was also a celebration. Whew. Shipped that. Now we switch gears. I've never seen a product ship that way. We could see in real time what the users were doing with it, minutes after we flipped the switch.
There's nothing wrong with some excitement. Try it you might like it. When you spend as much time working towards a milestone we have it's worth doing something nutty and stunning to mark the moment. Our community is entitled to celebrate too. Some of them have stood by us through some incredibly awful buggy glitchy difficult unusable version. Let loose scream from the top of the hill -- it shipped glad that's over!
That the usual people here would sling shit on our celebration is not unusual -- I would be surprised if you didn't. And thanks to Rogers and Mark and Anil (I can't believe that!) for sticking up for me.
posted by davewiner at 10:43 PM on January 12, 2002
Dave, is there real documentation? That (the lack of it) was (for me) the thing I couldn't get past. And as long as you're here: is Radio basically "a cool collection of web publishing hacks/tools" or is there some more fundamental organization or system I couldn't see?
posted by rodii at 11:10 PM on January 12, 2002
posted by rodii at 11:10 PM on January 12, 2002
I'll probably take another stab at explaining Radio Userland at length on my personal web site after I've found my way around version 8. This topic on the software's discussion forum was my attempt to explain it to another programmer last year.
Rodii: The documentation for UserTalk Frontier verbs is a good place to see the functionality of UserTalk, the scripting language for programs written in Radio Userland. RU supports most, perhaps all, of those commands. RU has a lot of different stuff on top of this, but I found it easier to figure out the scripting and database parts of the program first.
posted by rcade at 5:55 AM on January 13, 2002
Rodii: The documentation for UserTalk Frontier verbs is a good place to see the functionality of UserTalk, the scripting language for programs written in Radio Userland. RU supports most, perhaps all, of those commands. RU has a lot of different stuff on top of this, but I found it easier to figure out the scripting and database parts of the program first.
posted by rcade at 5:55 AM on January 13, 2002
As far as I'm concerned, Winer can do anything he likes with his server as long as he doesn't break any applicable laws.
SDB, how does this jibe with your expressed political views on web advertising -- the ones that lead you to say you want to "actively assist in [ad-supported sites'] commercial deaths"?
posted by mattpfeff at 6:36 AM on January 13, 2002
SDB, how does this jibe with your expressed political views on web advertising -- the ones that lead you to say you want to "actively assist in [ad-supported sites'] commercial deaths"?
posted by mattpfeff at 6:36 AM on January 13, 2002
mattpfeff: There's no way I can answer for SDB, but certainly for myself: As far as I'm concerned, I can do anything with my client as long as I don't break any applicable laws.
That does include aggressive ad filtering, in my case and apparently SDB's.
posted by majick at 8:53 AM on January 13, 2002
That does include aggressive ad filtering, in my case and apparently SDB's.
posted by majick at 8:53 AM on January 13, 2002
Rogers: really useful stuff, thanks. I'll have to dust off my Frontier knowledge (unused since they went to for-pay). It looks like RU is more a toolbox than an application. Is there a place where people are sharing things they've built using RU (the way they used to for Frontier)?
I still wish Userland would spend more energy on actual end-user documentation. I understannd the consuming need to hack driving all before it, but I wish they would just stop once in a while, take a deep breath, and put together a real, for-newbies manual. I actually think this is one of the big obstacle keeping them from a larger user base.
Anyway, my mild snarking at Dave personally aside, RU still seems like a potentially very cool thing.
posted by rodii at 10:50 AM on January 13, 2002
I still wish Userland would spend more energy on actual end-user documentation. I understannd the consuming need to hack driving all before it, but I wish they would just stop once in a while, take a deep breath, and put together a real, for-newbies manual. I actually think this is one of the big obstacle keeping them from a larger user base.
Anyway, my mild snarking at Dave personally aside, RU still seems like a potentially very cool thing.
posted by rodii at 10:50 AM on January 13, 2002
I can do anything with my client as long as I don't break any applicable laws.
This is true, and I have no strong complaint against it. SDB, however, believes that blocking ads is some sort of political statement, and has explicitly stated that he believes that it is a virtue of ad blocking that it may contribute to the demise of sites attempting to earn revenue off of ads.
I simply wonder how that view is consistent with his view expressed here, that content providers should be free to do whatever they want with their own servers, even, apparently, when the ads they serve are even more intrusive on the user experience than your typical, offensive web advertising experience. (I can see a few distinctions (including a possible objection to ads served from other servers specifically), but I don't know which ones SDB thinks are important.)
posted by mattpfeff at 11:19 AM on January 13, 2002
This is true, and I have no strong complaint against it. SDB, however, believes that blocking ads is some sort of political statement, and has explicitly stated that he believes that it is a virtue of ad blocking that it may contribute to the demise of sites attempting to earn revenue off of ads.
I simply wonder how that view is consistent with his view expressed here, that content providers should be free to do whatever they want with their own servers, even, apparently, when the ads they serve are even more intrusive on the user experience than your typical, offensive web advertising experience. (I can see a few distinctions (including a possible objection to ads served from other servers specifically), but I don't know which ones SDB thinks are important.)
posted by mattpfeff at 11:19 AM on January 13, 2002
This is true, and I have no strong complaint against it. SDB, however ...
Though I should add, to clarify -- I'm not trying to make a complaint against SDB, either (though I don't understand his view, and it does irk me that he presents it so self-rightously); I more just want to know where he draws the distinction.
posted by mattpfeff at 11:29 AM on January 13, 2002
Though I should add, to clarify -- I'm not trying to make a complaint against SDB, either (though I don't understand his view, and it does irk me that he presents it so self-rightously); I more just want to know where he draws the distinction.
posted by mattpfeff at 11:29 AM on January 13, 2002
Rodii, there's lots of docs for Radio 8, in the Help system and in the Prefs system. End-user stuff. We did pause and write and edit, and write. Check it out.
posted by davewiner at 9:07 PM on January 13, 2002
posted by davewiner at 9:07 PM on January 13, 2002
Matt Pfeff, I haven't visited any of Winer's sites in more than a year, because there's no material there I wish to see. But if I did, he has the privilege of putting anything up on his site that he wants to, and I have the privilege of using whatever filtering software on it that I want, and electronic Darwinism will determine if his site survives.
And I am completely satisified with that answer. Now in future would you please stick to the subject of any given thread within which you happen to participate?
posted by Steven Den Beste at 11:08 PM on January 13, 2002
And I am completely satisified with that answer. Now in future would you please stick to the subject of any given thread within which you happen to participate?
posted by Steven Den Beste at 11:08 PM on January 13, 2002
Matt Pfeff, one more point: I distinguish between sites which create material and use irrelevant and unrelated and obnoxious advertising as a way of financing it (e.g. Salon) and a site which is clearly a front for a corporation's products (e.g. Crucial). I think that online catalogs, and sites representing corporations, are absolutely wonderful. If I want to learn about a given company's products or to purchase from them, I visit their web site and they give me information. That's not intrusive, it's a service. (And I've bought from Crucial's web site a lot.) I do not object to the use of the web by companies. What I object to is them trying to take it over.
I like Firaxis's site. I like EA's site. I used to use Egghead's site a lot. I visit the sites belonging to HP and Compaq and Dell. I like 'em all. I turn my filtration software off when I'm there.
What I object to is sites which try to force me to see information about products when I'm not interested in them. I want to see commercial information about products at a time of my choosing, not at theirs, about products I'm interested in, not about products they wish I'd become interested in.
Winer is running his site to demonstrate the capabilities of his products and to make sure people know about them so he can sell them. That put's him firmly in the "Crucial" style of site, of which I wholeheartedly approve. It happens to be the case that I don't have any interest at all in the products he sells -- which is fine; no-one can satisfy everyone -- so I don't visit his sites. And thus is liberty maximized: his liberty to talk about his products, my liberty to not have commercials crammed down my throat. I don't consider Winer's discussions of Manila et. al. on his site to be the same kind of thing as the advertising that I block (with a completely clear conscience) using client-side filtration software.
If you have any further questions for me about this, please send me email.
posted by Steven Den Beste at 11:30 PM on January 13, 2002
I like Firaxis's site. I like EA's site. I used to use Egghead's site a lot. I visit the sites belonging to HP and Compaq and Dell. I like 'em all. I turn my filtration software off when I'm there.
What I object to is sites which try to force me to see information about products when I'm not interested in them. I want to see commercial information about products at a time of my choosing, not at theirs, about products I'm interested in, not about products they wish I'd become interested in.
Winer is running his site to demonstrate the capabilities of his products and to make sure people know about them so he can sell them. That put's him firmly in the "Crucial" style of site, of which I wholeheartedly approve. It happens to be the case that I don't have any interest at all in the products he sells -- which is fine; no-one can satisfy everyone -- so I don't visit his sites. And thus is liberty maximized: his liberty to talk about his products, my liberty to not have commercials crammed down my throat. I don't consider Winer's discussions of Manila et. al. on his site to be the same kind of thing as the advertising that I block (with a completely clear conscience) using client-side filtration software.
If you have any further questions for me about this, please send me email.
posted by Steven Den Beste at 11:30 PM on January 13, 2002
Now in future would you please stick to the subject of any given thread within which you happen to participate?
Apologies if I seemed to stray -- I realized that might have sounded more personal than I had intended. But I also think my question, and your response, SDB, were both completely on topic. (It's interesting, for instance, that users of some types of sites will find certain types of advertising appropriate there (so much so that they would even turn off their ad-blocking software, apparently), even though they wouldn't find that same type of advertising appropriate on other kinds of sites. And I think that's directly relevant to the question that began this thread.)
posted by mattpfeff at 7:54 AM on January 14, 2002
Apologies if I seemed to stray -- I realized that might have sounded more personal than I had intended. But I also think my question, and your response, SDB, were both completely on topic. (It's interesting, for instance, that users of some types of sites will find certain types of advertising appropriate there (so much so that they would even turn off their ad-blocking software, apparently), even though they wouldn't find that same type of advertising appropriate on other kinds of sites. And I think that's directly relevant to the question that began this thread.)
posted by mattpfeff at 7:54 AM on January 14, 2002
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He does seem to run Scripting News partially as a personal forum, but also as a promotional vessel for his products. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but plugs like this go hand-in-hand with that idea. No complaints here.
posted by Succa at 8:27 PM on January 11, 2002