There's a link with an entire article posted - I don't think this falls under "Fair Use"

November 24, 2005 3:04 PM

The link associated with this post is not close to being "fair use".
posted by Ethereal Bligh to Etiquette/Policy at 3:04 PM (95 comments total)

It's not as if MeFi itself was posting the entire article, so maybe it's okay. But it's questionable.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:23 PM on November 24, 2005

No it's not. It's OK. Pointless callout but congratulations for keeping it under 2,000 words.
posted by i_cola at 3:45 PM on November 24, 2005

Fuck you. That was two words.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:52 PM on November 24, 2005

Technically, that was six.

*Looks forwards to the day it's just "."*
posted by i_cola at 3:56 PM on November 24, 2005

I have a number of viewpoints regarding this matter:

[16MB PDF file deleted, as it held no relevant bearing to the thread topic and is theft of another site's bandwidth]

Furthermore,

[3.5MB PDF file deleted, as it held no relevant bearing to the thread topic and is theft of another site's bandwidth]

[9MB PDF file deleted, as it held no relevant bearing to the thread topic and is theft of another site's bandwidth]

which can be backed by way of-

[Damnit, SD, cutting and pasting Solzhenitsyn's Red Wheel saga in its entirety is SERIOUSLY pushing it. Take the rest of 2005 off to think about it.]
posted by Smart Dalek at 4:00 PM on November 24, 2005

Seriously, though. As someone said in-thread, this is a link to an entire article reprinted from a magazine that is at the newstands right now, as well as being available for subscribers at the magazine's website. That's egregiously violating the parameters of "fair use". If it were on MeFi, that would be really bad. But just the subject of a post linking to it seems to me to be borderline; certainly not the sort of thing that should be encouraged.

That's all I have to say about it. Hash it out as you wish. Happy American Thanksgiving!
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:01 PM on November 24, 2005

"Technically, that was six." No, if I had written "this" and not "that" it would have been six words. Nice try at pedantry, though. Here's your silver star.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:05 PM on November 24, 2005

I agree with someone in this thread.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:14 PM on November 24, 2005

You must be a riot at parties...
posted by i_cola at 4:14 PM on November 24, 2005

...EB
posted by i_cola at 4:15 PM on November 24, 2005

I would encourage anyone who enjoyed that article to purchase the magazine for other similar content.

There, conscience clear.
posted by Space Coyote at 4:23 PM on November 24, 2005

Ok, someone needs to make a crack about someone's mother now. And maybe break a lamp.

Then they can go cry in the shed for awhile, maybe throwing up on the roses, then pass out in the bathroom.

Man, I love metafilter. Even on the holidays it's just like being with family.
posted by Stunt at 4:23 PM on November 24, 2005

say hi to your mom for me.
posted by quonsar at 4:30 PM on November 24, 2005

not for sale in the UK.
posted by bonaldi at 4:39 PM on November 24, 2005

Mom, Tim's putting olives on his fingers again!
posted by eriko at 4:45 PM on November 24, 2005

Maybe instead of nitpicking about EB's posting history, those who disagree with the idea that it's not fair use could explain the relevant points of law. Then we could all go back to squabling with our real families.

I don't think the post was ethically grievous, but I can see where legal concerns might come in.
posted by namespan at 4:52 PM on November 24, 2005

Has anyone claimed that it was fair use? Someone posted it elsewhere, and Metafilter links to it. That's perfectly legal.

Whether or not the other site is in a questionable legal situation is a matter for that site's administration to decide.

Now, if you want to talk about whether or not that Metafilter post is ethical, ok, but don't couch it in legal arguments.
posted by mendel at 5:08 PM on November 24, 2005

I think what's being lost in this discussion is the shocking possibility that y2karl needs to get his own fucking blog maybe.
posted by tweak at 5:18 PM on November 24, 2005

Pointless callout but congratulations for keeping it under 2,000 words.

Ah, lovely. Cheers. Made my day.
posted by Rothko at 5:26 PM on November 24, 2005

I am happy because discussions such as this make my real family look less dysfunctional. Although not nearly this witty:

Fuck you. That was two words.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:52 PM PST on November 24
_______________________________________
Technically, that was six.

*Looks forwards to the day it's just "."*
posted by i_cola
posted by leftcoastbob at 5:46 PM on November 24, 2005

I agree with this callout, and I think the FPP should be deleted.
posted by cribcage at 5:48 PM on November 24, 2005

It is a bit like linking to the bittorent of a movie when talking about a film...
posted by ph00dz at 5:54 PM on November 24, 2005

I will avenge your death, copyrights!
posted by odinsdream at 5:54 PM on November 24, 2005

Where did we decide M.E.F.I. posts were supposed to be ethical?
Best of the web != best of the ethical web. Metafilter is one host-overloading, pirate-supporting, Geocity-razing juggernaut of a blog.

posted by Count Ziggurat at 5:58 PM on November 24, 2005

My real family won't squabble with me, so I came here. You're all fuckwits!
*puts up dukes*

Oh, the topic? I don't see it as a big deal, but then I'm used to the Russian internet, where virtually everything is online in its entirety, regardless of copyright status. I don't think The Atlantic is losing many sales because of the post, which was extremely interesting and led to one of the rare flameless MeFi religion threads.
posted by languagehat at 6:01 PM on November 24, 2005

That image is going to be prosecution exhibit Rrrrrr.

In the future just post the material anonymously to slashdot, and link to that. Now it's their problem.
posted by holloway at 6:10 PM on November 24, 2005

Better yet, whack it up to Google Base and put some ads around it. Then we'd really have something to argue about!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:35 PM on November 24, 2005

I thought about posting this to MeTa myself. As I said in the thread, this is stealing or the next thing to it. We have had other discussions in the gray about the ethics of linking to illegally posted stuff, particularly over some site that hosted the entire run of Calvin and Hobbes. Here it is.
posted by LarryC at 6:39 PM on November 24, 2005

Brad DeLong routinely will post entire articles (if they're short) on his blog. Or at least he did in the past—I don't read him anymore. But he's very popular and I don't think any magazine has complained.

But it always bothered me. I'm not zealously pro-IP but I'm not anti-IP, either. I think my main concern is about creators being compensated for their production and the continued viability of certain media, like magazines, that I think are vital. On the other hand, for civic reasons, I think a lot of stuff should eventually become universally available. That quite surely includes things that are themselves part of civic discourse, like this particular article y2karl links.

Not trivial, also, is that this would have been a bad post even if IP concerns weren't involved.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:42 PM on November 24, 2005

My real family won't squabble with me, so I came here. You're all fuckwits!

*breaks chair over languagehat's head, throws whiskey bottle at wall*

I'm a giver.
posted by jonmc at 6:43 PM on November 24, 2005

Yeah, I too didn't like that Calvin and Hobbes post. Interesting that Alex Reynolds posted that MeTa complaint but he didn't have anything to say about it in this thread.
quonsar, I emailed you to ask but you haven't written back...I don't get the "say hi to your mother" comment. Explain?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:50 PM on November 24, 2005

I wonder if EB has ever considered the real reason for his callout is he disagrees with someone's politics?
posted by juiceCake at 6:51 PM on November 24, 2005

EB - I think he was making a joke re: Stunt's comment.
posted by loquax at 7:32 PM on November 24, 2005

"I wonder if EB has ever considered the real reason for his callout is he disagrees with someone's politics?"

No, I didn't consider that because I don't disagree with y2karl's politics.

I wonder if juiceCake has ever considered the real reason he assumed that I must disagree with y2karl's politics is because he agrees with y2karl's politics?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:46 PM on November 24, 2005

The whole point of Metafilter is to link to copyrighted material. That's what the site DOES.
posted by banished at 8:22 PM on November 24, 2005

The quality of the discussion supercedes whatever losses The Atlantic realizes from this incident. I also posit that the lost sales from the copy/pasting of that article are at most zero and possibly a negative number, but regardless it is a fine discussion indeed.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:48 PM on November 24, 2005

.
posted by aaronetc at 8:50 PM on November 24, 2005

as I said in the thread, this is stealing or the next thing to it.

Well, I have no idea what's "next to" stealing, but... since apparently there's always those who don't understand:

It's not theft, it's copyright infringement. Copyright infringement is not stealing, and stealing is not copyright infringement.

There are important legal differences.
posted by odinsdream at 9:06 PM on November 24, 2005

"The whole point of Metafilter is to link to copyrighted material. That's what the site DOES."

You realize that you're not making any sense, right?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:42 PM on November 24, 2005

Interesting that Alex Reynolds posted that MeTa complaint but he didn't have anything to say about it in this thread.

Interesting that you didn't take up that cause — perhaps you're happy to change your tune depending on who's involved — yet this one is egregious enough to make a call-out.

Do people ever get tired of having this debate?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:45 PM PST on February 27 [!]

Evidently some people don't.
posted by Rothko at 9:59 PM on November 24, 2005

"This" in your quote of mine is whether or not copyright infringement is 'theft' not whether or not copyright infringement a bad thing.

And, hey, look what's in that thread:

"Posts to obviously copyright-infringing material have been yanked repeatedly because they expose the site and Matt to legal risks. AlexReynolds is well within bounds to post the thing here and ask the question. Don't get all uppity about him ramming his opinion down your throat."—Scarabic

"I'm with scarabic. I mean, I agree with him. I hope I'm not being uppity."—Ethereal Bligh
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:15 PM on November 24, 2005

Keith M Ellis, you're hoisted by your own petard again:

I really don't care whether or not "copyright infringement" is "theft" or not. I don't have a horse in this race, I have no emotional or intellectual investment in it one way or another. But obviously most of you folks do. You people sound like religious zealots. And you're as unreasonably sure of yourselves like religious zealots. You don't need to make an argument because you're so obviously right. Uh-huh.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:35 PM PST on February 27 [!]
posted by Rothko at 10:22 PM on November 24, 2005

So what is your complaint, exactly? Are you genuinely upset about abuse of the meaning of "fair use" from your lofty, semantic ivory tower, do you not like this act of theft/infringement/whatever because of the clear moral implications, or are you just beefing for the hell of it?
posted by Rothko at 10:25 PM on November 24, 2005

Again, that underlined section is about copyright infringement = theft, not copyright infringement = bad. Did you learn to read recently or have you always had this problem? Also, your implicit equation between my use of "Alex Reynolds" and your use of "Keith M Elis" is flawed because "Keith M Ellis" was never my freakin' user name.

On preview: Like you, I'm concerned about MeFi linking to an infringment of copyrighted material. Both for MeFi's sake and for the copyright holder's sake and, oh, all that other stuff I said in my comment in this freakin' thread.

I think you'd be a lot less annoying if you weren't dumb as a rock.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:32 PM on November 24, 2005

I think you'd be a lot less annoying if you weren't dumb as a rock.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:32 PM PST on November 24 [!]

I think you'd be a lot less annoying if you weren't such a freakin' hypocrite. Your own words damn you.

You know exactly what this call-out is really about, and you know exactly why you're doing it.

Your mistake is thinking it isn't completely obvious to anyone paying attention. My own mistake is paying any attention to you at all, and one which I'll rectify right now.
posted by Rothko at 10:37 PM on November 24, 2005

Ah, it's time for the Alex Reynolds Show. So glad we can do this every week; it really brings us all together as a community.

*settles back, pours glass of whine*
posted by interrobang at 10:43 PM on November 24, 2005

Ah, it's time for the Alex Reynolds Show. So glad we can do this every week; it really brings us all together as a community.

Chumbawumba!
posted by Rothko at 10:50 PM on November 24, 2005

"You know exactly what this call-out is really about, and you know exactly why you're doing it."

Yeah, it's about what I've said it's about and I'm doing it because I read LarryC's comment about this concern and immediately thought "this should probably be in MeTa".
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:59 PM on November 24, 2005

I like pie. I really like pumpkin pie. This is important, because there's still half a pumpkin pie in the kitchen.
posted by loquacious at 11:00 PM on November 24, 2005 [1 favorite]

Meanwhile, this story is still going on....
posted by interrobang at 11:15 PM on November 24, 2005

Agreed. Let's all eat pie. loquacious, will you mail me your leftovers? I'm jonesin'.
posted by donpedro at 11:24 PM on November 24, 2005

interrobang: Yeah, I want to see the end to that story. The scuzzle-rag is still signing on under his airnxtz AIM account.

donpedro: Sent. Check your email!
posted by loquacious at 11:27 PM on November 24, 2005

donpedro: Argh. Nevermind. It bounced. Off my screen.

*eagerly awaits Google NanoFax*
posted by loquacious at 11:29 PM on November 24, 2005

EB - this callout matches one of my recent posts. The distinction is MetaFilter doing something questionable, or MetaFilter linking to someone else doing something questionable.

MetaFilter is not violating copyright here, so I don't know what you're worried about.

People buy magazines to have a whole heep of great articles in one place. People are more likely to be turned on to a magazine if they have access to the occasional article, and it's not going to stop anyone buying it than was going to buy it any way: in short, the benefits massively outweigh the "costs" in my opinion.
posted by nthdegx at 11:30 PM on November 24, 2005

Wow, Ethereal Bligh. I had no idea you and y2karl didn't get along. You two seem so alike.
posted by gsb at 11:36 PM on November 24, 2005

Relevant to the copyright discussion: the Free Republic "precedent"
posted by dhartung at 11:45 PM on November 24, 2005

I like y2karl.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:45 PM on November 24, 2005

While we're at it, please remove from today's FPPs:

The Box and Monkeys dressed as jockeys

The links associated with those posts are not close to being "fair use".

I haven't had time to go back over the past week yet, but I'll keep my eye out in the future.
posted by Jairus at 11:52 PM on November 24, 2005

Damn fine cup of coffee.
posted by Dreamghost at 12:43 AM on November 25, 2005

Damn....I wish we had Thanksgiving in the UK....I can't wait for Christmas...when I can be bored enough to argue about this shit...
posted by mattr at 1:27 AM on November 25, 2005

*Surveys minor carnage*

Cool. As a resident of a minority timezone I don't get to participate in your holiday shenanigans but I can get a feel for it thru the Magic Of MeTa. Cheers guys (& guyesses)!

That's all I have to say about it. Hash it out as you wish...
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:01 PM PST on November 24 [!]

Followed by 9 more comments over 7:44 hours. The San Gorgonio's got nuttin' on you pal. ;-)
posted by i_cola at 1:32 AM on November 25, 2005

leftcoastbob: "I am happy because discussions such as this make my real family look less dysfunctional. Although not nearly this witty:

Fuck you. That was two words.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:52 PM PST on November 24
_______________________________________
Technically, that was six.

*Looks forwards to the day it's just "."*
posted by i_cola"

It would have been a lot wittier had i_cola been, you know, able to count, or to use demonstratives properly.
posted by kenko at 2:06 AM on November 25, 2005

I love you guys.
posted by graventy at 2:23 AM on November 25, 2005

My live work is far better. I find the nuances come accross more...
posted by i_cola at 2:25 AM on November 25, 2005

...and I don't have to worry 'bout spelling.
posted by i_cola at 2:26 AM on November 25, 2005

Personally I find linking to an unauthorized copy of a copyrighted work kind of tacky and I would rather not see it here. Maybe I'm not very observant, but there's not a whole lot of that going on here, right? I remember being kind of disappointed when we linked to the Bunny Suicides ripoff site but that was in January.
posted by teleskiving at 5:26 AM on November 25, 2005

This is certainly a worthy topic for a MetaTalk thread even if you think the link in question is no big deal.

It seems like a bad idea to make a habit out of linking to things like this article on a regular basis. While I don't think it's too egregious, the fact that there is a well understood and accepted way for magazines to release their content on the web (on their own website) and given the fact that The Atlantic has chosen not to do this, it seems like good manners would suggest that we respect that decision.
posted by OmieWise at 5:46 AM on November 25, 2005

I would like to add that I too like pumpkin pie, and we too have at least half a pie left. Life is good.
posted by languagehat at 6:05 AM on November 25, 2005

We've got a pie and a half. And molasses cookies. SUCK IT LOSERS.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 6:14 AM on November 25, 2005

I agree with OmieWise, specifically and generally. We had a mocha torte instead of pie and it was great and there's more in the fridge.
posted by jessamyn at 6:33 AM on November 25, 2005

Is this the right place to make a joke about someone being a drama queen?
posted by wilberforce at 8:33 AM on November 25, 2005

Is there ever a wrong place to make a joke about someone being a drama queen?
posted by chrismear at 8:57 AM on November 25, 2005

i_cola was perfectly justified in counting six -- his "that" had a different referent than EB's "that". You cranberry-hogging fuckmuggles.
posted by cortex at 9:36 AM on November 25, 2005

While OmieWise makes a good point, any corporation releasing material under selected access onto the internet must know the risk of digital reproduction. If The Atlantic is so concerned, one well worded cease and desist letter to the host of the infringing material will settle the matter. The Atlantic can fairly easily find unauthorized public reproductions of their work. The burden is on them to limit or prevent such unauthorized public reproductions.

The facts would seem to be that The Atlantic hasn't and won't take action because they are not losing a significant amount of money by having content occassionally reproduced. Good for them. They understand the digital revolution.
posted by McGuillicuddy at 9:41 AM on November 25, 2005

cortex, I find cranberry-hogging violates my copyright disgusting.
posted by Cranberry at 12:22 PM on November 25, 2005

I have about 3/8 of a pie left, but it's only me, you know, so that's generous.

Plus I have enough dough left over for another crust.
posted by kenko at 12:28 PM on November 25, 2005

I think you'd be a lot less annoying if you weren't such a freakin' hypocrite. Your own words damn you.


*scratches beard , adjusts white robes , throws EB into lake of fire*
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:17 PM on November 25, 2005

wow. i_cola's kind of a dick, huh?
posted by shmegegge at 2:27 PM on November 25, 2005

Jesus, people. What a wank this thread is. It's a simple point: reproducing an entire copyrighted article on some ezboard website is infringement. Linking to same is not illegal or anything like that, but in a way it supports said bad behavior. It's a good article I enjoyed reading, though, so I have no place to complain, I guess.
posted by scarabic at 2:27 PM on November 25, 2005

I'm going to post this entire thread on another web site.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:59 PM on November 25, 2005

mmm.....yeah, learning my grandmother boinked members of her church behind my grandfather's back was better than this thread.

But only slightly. Family! It's wanks like this that bring us closer together. Or is that beer?

(And I only have 1 slice of apple pie :( That'll be a nice breakfast tomorrow.)
posted by kalimac at 5:23 PM on November 25, 2005

If it is on the internet, it will be linked to. If not by Metafilter, than by millions of other blogs everywhere. Get over it. This is the information age. Information flows freely without regard for your morals or interests, Ethereal Bligh.
posted by banished at 5:32 PM on November 25, 2005

*prepares devastating lawsuit against mr_crash_davis for unauthorized use of his eloquent and witty pie-related bon mots*

*clue-lacking jury awards damages exceeding 12 million dollars*

All right, Mr. Davis - IF THAT'S YOUR REAL NAME - you can pay up now.

Whattya mean all you have is some leftover pie? What the fuck...? This isn't even half a pie!! What kind of trough-scouring swine are you? YOU HAD TWELVE PIES YESTERDAY, YOU RAVENOUS FILTH!

Fine, then. Fine. Give me the pie. Yes, yes, the whipped cream too, you shifty filcher.

*sits in the corner munching happily*

What? WHAT!? Are you even considering LOOKING at MY pie? YOU BETTER NOT BE LOOKING AT MY PIE YOU MOOCHERS.
posted by loquacious at 5:33 PM on November 25, 2005

"Information flows freely without regard for your morals or interests, Ethereal Bligh."

No, really? Well, okay then. Can you clear up that whole "water flowing downhill" thing? Thanks.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:56 PM on November 25, 2005

The link associated with this post is not close to being "fair use".

Actually, it *is* arguably "close" to being fair use, given that satisfying only one of the four prongs of the fair use test is technically enough for a finding. Since the first prong specifically notes nonprofit educational purposes as a legit factor in determining fair use, and since the ezboard in question is free and ad-free, a decent free speech lawyer could at least make the case that the post in question does qualify for the fair use exemption. Like, for instance, Truthout.org, which invokes Title 17, chapter 1, section 107 on just about every reprinted page.

Bottom line: At the very least, EB's exaggerating to state that the link in question "is not close" to being fair use of copyrighted material. A more nuanced - and accurate - take is that there are good arguments on both sides of the issue, including a decent legal case for fair use in this instance.
posted by mediareport at 10:54 PM on November 25, 2005

scarabic: reproducing an entire copyrighted article on some ezboard website is infringement

Again, there is a decent legal argument that the above statement is not true.
posted by mediareport at 10:59 PM on November 25, 2005

This just makes me want to link to such material so as to get EB all in a tizzy.

Seriously, dude. Are you appointing yourself the Copyright Police? Maybe we should get you a little badge and hat.
posted by beth at 11:50 PM on November 25, 2005

My wife just baked an apple pie (well, technically a galette, since it doesn't have a top crust, but I only know that because she told me) so after today's turkey dinner (yes, we're having another one, for another segment of family) we'll have a choice of pumpkin pie, apple pie, and the brownies she made yesterday. Life is good, regardless of putative copyright infringement.

Except for the snow. There's several inches of snow on the ground. Could somebody fix that? EB? i_cola?
posted by languagehat at 6:14 AM on November 26, 2005

What, you don't want snowtime fun?
posted by chrismear at 6:58 AM on November 26, 2005

hat, I think you can use the Lowell Plan for this snow: Wait for the sun to come out, and watch the snow go away. It doesn't work as often as Lowell would like (and if you use it once too often, you're screwed for the rest of the winter), but I think it will do this time.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:19 AM on November 26, 2005

"This just makes me want to link to such material so as to get EB all in a tizzy."

That's a great idea. You should do that!
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:42 AM on November 26, 2005

lh: Surely you must want snow for the holidays?!?

shmegegge: You wish, sweetheart.
posted by i_cola at 12:10 PM on November 26, 2005

lh: Surely you must want snow for the holidays?!?

Yes indeed. Come Christmas and New Year's, I will want to see a nice blanket of snow on the ground. Thanksgiving is not "the holidays" under the meaning of the Holiday Snow Act. I mean, the Fourth of July is a holiday too. Snow does not belong in November. There are rules about these things.

But that was damn good apple pie galette, and there's pumpkin pie to go with the leftovers. And the zinfandel was delicious. Life is still good.
posted by languagehat at 12:27 PM on November 26, 2005

Metafilter: Maybe we should get you a little badge and hat.
posted by Rothko at 2:35 PM on November 27, 2005

I wonder if juiceCake has ever considered the real reason he assumed that I must disagree with y2karl's politics is because he agrees with y2karl's politics?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:46 PM PST on November 24 [!]

I haven't the foggiest idea about y2karl's politics mate. You missed the reference to yourself I gather. It is, afterall, one of your favourite arguments.
posted by juiceCake at 8:03 AM on December 6, 2005