Let's stop these ad hominem-themed derails, ok? January 25, 2006 3:35 PM Subscribe
Next person to use Latin where English would suffice gets a slap, you hear me?
posted by SweetJesus at 3:57 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by SweetJesus at 3:57 PM on January 25, 2006
Nobody knows anyone anymore.
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:02 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:02 PM on January 25, 2006
Sarge has it, or at least a big part of it. Too much growth, too fast, is certainly part of the problem, I agree.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:05 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:05 PM on January 25, 2006
How about an ad hominem theme park?
posted by found missing at 4:08 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by found missing at 4:08 PM on January 25, 2006
From Wikipedia:
"Metageddon : a term for when the 31000 users of metafilter , an internet community weblog , all commented on the same thread at the same time.
The resultant power surge left many parts of California without electricity for a week."
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:11 PM on January 25, 2006
"Metageddon : a term for when the 31000 users of metafilter , an internet community weblog , all commented on the same thread at the same time.
The resultant power surge left many parts of California without electricity for a week."
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:11 PM on January 25, 2006
"There seems to be less interest in argument as constructive, measured debate as opposed to argument as cockfight"
I think a significant portion of the problem may simply be that current American political debates tend to be completely intractable. It may be rather impossible for there to be a public measured debate about whether G. W. Bush should be able to wiretap Americans without a warrant. Both sides will have a strong tenancy to be either patronizing or apoplectic. Ditto for the question of whether invading Iraq was a good idea.
It's a cockfight because everything is so polarized now. Which is what Rove wants. Bush & Co don't look so good under measured debate. Cockfights they handle rather well though.
posted by y6y6y6 at 4:13 PM on January 25, 2006
I think a significant portion of the problem may simply be that current American political debates tend to be completely intractable. It may be rather impossible for there to be a public measured debate about whether G. W. Bush should be able to wiretap Americans without a warrant. Both sides will have a strong tenancy to be either patronizing or apoplectic. Ditto for the question of whether invading Iraq was a good idea.
It's a cockfight because everything is so polarized now. Which is what Rove wants. Bush & Co don't look so good under measured debate. Cockfights they handle rather well though.
posted by y6y6y6 at 4:13 PM on January 25, 2006
Don't come around here begging for questions. We don't take kindly to your type.
posted by thanotopsis at 4:13 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by thanotopsis at 4:13 PM on January 25, 2006
Spoken like a true 14ker , i propose deletion of all members from 14999 upwards.
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:15 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:15 PM on January 25, 2006
In my defence, I'd like to point out that lodurr started it.
*cough*
posted by mad judge pickles at 4:17 PM on January 25, 2006
*cough*
posted by mad judge pickles at 4:17 PM on January 25, 2006
I think this is the thread that's finally going to make people stop these terrible ad hobnob attacks.
This is truly a historic moment.
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:20 PM on January 25, 2006
This is truly a historic moment.
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:20 PM on January 25, 2006
Am I the only one who read "Ad homonym", as in...
I think its time to put the math textbooks down.
posted by onalark at 4:24 PM on January 25, 2006
I think its time to put the math textbooks down.
posted by onalark at 4:24 PM on January 25, 2006
Nobody knows anyone anymore.
That's because Anyone is now posting using a sock puppet account named Nobody.
posted by srboisvert at 5:06 PM on January 25, 2006
That's because Anyone is now posting using a sock puppet account named Nobody.
posted by srboisvert at 5:06 PM on January 25, 2006
Eh, what clockzero said. I made some comment in a thread about a week or so ago, and for whatever reason, Matt deleted the thread. I wish he wouldn't because it was an issue that needs to be addressed.
The personality conflict has to stop. It's ruining the site.
I wasn't even involved in the thread that clockzero linked and didn't even bother reading it until just now when I followed clockzero's link. For some reason there are a good half comments about me in that thread even though I had nothing to do with it. One user simply tried to drag something from another thread into that one for no reason at all except to perpetuate personality conflict in an effort to castigate me for an opinion he disagrees with. That serves no function but to poison the site. People have to realize: this site isn't your clique or your lunch table. This is a community, and people should treat each other that way.
It's at the point where I know that no matter what I say, there are a group of readers who will respond to in an insulting manner, even though what I said is not directed to them at all. And, as a result, things devolve from there. Such a need to perpetuate personality conflict serves no function but to poison the site.
There is far too much name-calling, dragging stuff from thread to thread, addressing people personally instead of addressing the points being made.
People can reasonably disagree with you. Because they do, it is not necessary for you to try to cut them down to size in an effort to win. Just give them the respect to their opinions. Disagree, if you must. But don't deny them the right to reasonableness of their opinions. Because they disagree with you, that doesn't make them evil/stupid/fascist/commies/troll/disingenuous. But by acting as if everyone must be in agreement or else be exhibiting some negative characteristic, it poisons any chance at a robust debate.
Am I a perfect exemplar of posting here? No. I have made comments in the past I regret. But I can warrant to you this: if people would leave me the hell alone and not go apeshit over every single thing I say, then I think you would see that I am not the source of the personality conflict. I can be snarky just like everyone else. I can contribute substantively like everyone else. But you will never see me go ad hominem first. Sometimes I disappoint myself and respond to attacks on me with attacks, and I regret it. But I try hard to ignore them. But there shouldn't be the sheer volume that there is.
We have to quit addressing people as they are enemies to be destroyed. If you disagree with someone, do so. But disagreement doesn't make them your enemy. And it is that mentality which drives people to attack the person instead of their comments.
It is ruining the site. I know I am sick of it, and I am not the only one. If you can't stand a user, than ignore them. There is no need to insult or name-call or drag stuff from thread to thread to try to tar users.
(I'm sure people will respond to this comment by trying to show how bad they think I am. I hope the irony is not lost on anyone when they do.)
posted by dios at 5:14 PM on January 25, 2006
The personality conflict has to stop. It's ruining the site.
I wasn't even involved in the thread that clockzero linked and didn't even bother reading it until just now when I followed clockzero's link. For some reason there are a good half comments about me in that thread even though I had nothing to do with it. One user simply tried to drag something from another thread into that one for no reason at all except to perpetuate personality conflict in an effort to castigate me for an opinion he disagrees with. That serves no function but to poison the site. People have to realize: this site isn't your clique or your lunch table. This is a community, and people should treat each other that way.
It's at the point where I know that no matter what I say, there are a group of readers who will respond to in an insulting manner, even though what I said is not directed to them at all. And, as a result, things devolve from there. Such a need to perpetuate personality conflict serves no function but to poison the site.
There is far too much name-calling, dragging stuff from thread to thread, addressing people personally instead of addressing the points being made.
People can reasonably disagree with you. Because they do, it is not necessary for you to try to cut them down to size in an effort to win. Just give them the respect to their opinions. Disagree, if you must. But don't deny them the right to reasonableness of their opinions. Because they disagree with you, that doesn't make them evil/stupid/fascist/commies/troll/disingenuous. But by acting as if everyone must be in agreement or else be exhibiting some negative characteristic, it poisons any chance at a robust debate.
Am I a perfect exemplar of posting here? No. I have made comments in the past I regret. But I can warrant to you this: if people would leave me the hell alone and not go apeshit over every single thing I say, then I think you would see that I am not the source of the personality conflict. I can be snarky just like everyone else. I can contribute substantively like everyone else. But you will never see me go ad hominem first. Sometimes I disappoint myself and respond to attacks on me with attacks, and I regret it. But I try hard to ignore them. But there shouldn't be the sheer volume that there is.
We have to quit addressing people as they are enemies to be destroyed. If you disagree with someone, do so. But disagreement doesn't make them your enemy. And it is that mentality which drives people to attack the person instead of their comments.
It is ruining the site. I know I am sick of it, and I am not the only one. If you can't stand a user, than ignore them. There is no need to insult or name-call or drag stuff from thread to thread to try to tar users.
(I'm sure people will respond to this comment by trying to show how bad they think I am. I hope the irony is not lost on anyone when they do.)
posted by dios at 5:14 PM on January 25, 2006
I agree with dios, and let me beat my favorite drum: Matt needs to close membership again. The site has gotten too big, too fast, and needs time to settle.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 5:22 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 5:22 PM on January 25, 2006
I agree with dios too, and the ad hominem really does seem to have gotten worse. Stop it, all of you! But:
Next person to use Latin where English would suffice gets a slap, you hear me?
Non audio, amice.
posted by languagehat at 5:25 PM on January 25, 2006
Next person to use Latin where English would suffice gets a slap, you hear me?
Non audio, amice.
posted by languagehat at 5:25 PM on January 25, 2006
I agree with stavros, but I don't think there's a solution. This is what most MeFites want MeFi to be.
The decision to go in this direction was made a long, long time ago.
posted by gd779 at 5:33 PM on January 25, 2006
The decision to go in this direction was made a long, long time ago.
posted by gd779 at 5:33 PM on January 25, 2006
"Spoken like a true 14ker , i propose deletion of all members from 14999 upwards."
WHOA Whoa whoa, whoa. whoa.
whoa.
Let's not get all crazy.
Maybe we just keep the bottom 2/3rds.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 5:34 PM on January 25, 2006
WHOA Whoa whoa, whoa. whoa.
whoa.
Let's not get all crazy.
Maybe we just keep the bottom 2/3rds.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 5:34 PM on January 25, 2006
Matt's not going to listen.
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:36 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:36 PM on January 25, 2006
I think Matt secretly enjoys it when we blow up at each other.
Suck it, bitches.
posted by graventy at 6:13 PM on January 25, 2006
Suck it, bitches.
posted by graventy at 6:13 PM on January 25, 2006
I agree with dios, it is pathetic the hard on people have for certain users.
posted by Falconetti at 6:15 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by Falconetti at 6:15 PM on January 25, 2006
Shorter dios: shit stinks when it's not my own.
(All links are to comments made today by dios.)
posted by orthogonality at 6:23 PM on January 25, 2006
(All links are to comments made today by dios.)
posted by orthogonality at 6:23 PM on January 25, 2006
Meus penis est ultum maior quam illud alius men's penises procul metafiler.
Commodo operor non foedus meus virtus per Res vel Lingua.
Latin est non funny nisi vos es validus intellego is.
posted by snsranch at 6:27 PM on January 25, 2006
Commodo operor non foedus meus virtus per Res vel Lingua.
Latin est non funny nisi vos es validus intellego is.
posted by snsranch at 6:27 PM on January 25, 2006
ortho:
those are all responses to the topic at hand and users addressing him. what do you want, drafted legal letters every time someone responds? I don't agree with him, but it's easy to see that he just feels passionately about certain topics. So do you, and the answers your highlighted are no worse than your own often are. Christ, it's not a sin to have a snide tone of voice during a discussion.
posted by shmegegge at 7:24 PM on January 25, 2006
those are all responses to the topic at hand and users addressing him. what do you want, drafted legal letters every time someone responds? I don't agree with him, but it's easy to see that he just feels passionately about certain topics. So do you, and the answers your highlighted are no worse than your own often are. Christ, it's not a sin to have a snide tone of voice during a discussion.
posted by shmegegge at 7:24 PM on January 25, 2006
Christ, it's not a sin to have a snide tone of voice during a discussion.
If it was, and if there were a Hell, we'd all be fucked.
posted by darukaru at 7:41 PM on January 25, 2006
If it was, and if there were a Hell, we'd all be fucked.
posted by darukaru at 7:41 PM on January 25, 2006
orthogonality, I think I disagree with dios on pretty much everything, but those comments are not inappropriate. This is inappropriate.
posted by ryanrs at 7:53 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by ryanrs at 7:53 PM on January 25, 2006
I remember waiting, camping, trying to get a membership. I missed a few of the openings... When the 5 dollar memberships started, I was ecstatic. However, I think that having to lurk for quite some time is helpful for new users and healthy for the community as a whole. You get the sense of knowing the place a little bit more before you jump in, and you also feel like you are a little bit lucky to be able to participate.
Back on topic:
Quoth #1:
"And for the love of christ, please stop making metatalk threads about controversial members, it just feeds into the game they play here."
posted by Freen at 8:15 PM on January 25, 2006
Back on topic:
Quoth #1:
"And for the love of christ, please stop making metatalk threads about controversial members, it just feeds into the game they play here."
posted by Freen at 8:15 PM on January 25, 2006
Frown Upon
posted by Captaintripps at 8:19 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by Captaintripps at 8:19 PM on January 25, 2006
I agree with dios, and let me beat my favorite drum: Matt needs to close membership again. The site has gotten too big, too fast, and needs time to settle.
My thoughts too.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:26 PM on January 25, 2006
My thoughts too.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:26 PM on January 25, 2006
Quoth #1:
"And for the love of christ, please stop making metatalk threads about controversial members, it just feeds into the game they play here."
So if he knows they're just playing a game, why keep letting them play it in his backyard?
posted by darukaru at 8:32 PM on January 25, 2006
"And for the love of christ, please stop making metatalk threads about controversial members, it just feeds into the game they play here."
So if he knows they're just playing a game, why keep letting them play it in his backyard?
posted by darukaru at 8:32 PM on January 25, 2006
This is what most MeFites want MeFi to be.
Well, some of our bright-eyed newbies do, that's for sure.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:51 PM on January 25, 2006
Well, some of our bright-eyed newbies do, that's for sure.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:51 PM on January 25, 2006
Oh, fucksticks. And the first line was a quote from gd779 upthread. *sigh*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:52 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:52 PM on January 25, 2006
The secret to Granny Ampersand's prize-winning grits?
Just ad hominems.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:15 PM on January 25, 2006
Just ad hominems.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:15 PM on January 25, 2006
Oh dios, you're so far above it all.
*swoon*.
Or ya know, shit stinks when it's not yours, you fucking baby.
posted by puke & cry at 9:46 PM on January 25, 2006
*swoon*.
Or ya know, shit stinks when it's not yours, you fucking baby.
posted by puke & cry at 9:46 PM on January 25, 2006
For the love of mefi, please ban controversial members when you know they're just playing games with your site and its members so we can stop having more threads about them and get back to having interesting conversations instead.
posted by Zetetics at 10:20 PM on January 25, 2006
posted by Zetetics at 10:20 PM on January 25, 2006
For the love of mefi, please ban controversial members when you know they're just playing games with your site and its members so we can stop having more threads about them and get back to having interesting conversations instead.
Seconded.
posted by kosher_jenny at 12:11 AM on January 26, 2006
Seconded.
posted by kosher_jenny at 12:11 AM on January 26, 2006
Meh, why not just use the Firefox Ad Hominem Blocker extension?
posted by Joeforking at 3:08 AM on January 26, 2006
posted by Joeforking at 3:08 AM on January 26, 2006
How about an extension that kewlfiles anyone who uses the term "meh"?
posted by srboisvert at 4:33 AM on January 26, 2006
posted by srboisvert at 4:33 AM on January 26, 2006
shit stinks when it's not yours
I love that there's a group of douchebags that think none of this discussion applies to their particular hobbyhorse. At least new members drown your voices.
THE PLAIN PEOPLE OF IRELAND: But they wish to impart their wisdom upon us.
MYSELF: Pfft.
posted by yerfatma at 4:53 AM on January 26, 2006
I love that there's a group of douchebags that think none of this discussion applies to their particular hobbyhorse. At least new members drown your voices.
THE PLAIN PEOPLE OF IRELAND: But they wish to impart their wisdom upon us.
MYSELF: Pfft.
posted by yerfatma at 4:53 AM on January 26, 2006
monju_bosatsu wrote "I agree with dios, and let me beat my favorite drum: Matt needs to close membership again. The site has gotten too big, too fast, and needs time to settle."
How about a throttle instead? I don't know how many users join up a day, but perhaps capping it at five or ten would allow new members (at about the same rate old ones leave?) without flooding the site.
posted by Eideteker at 5:13 AM on January 26, 2006
How about a throttle instead? I don't know how many users join up a day, but perhaps capping it at five or ten would allow new members (at about the same rate old ones leave?) without flooding the site.
posted by Eideteker at 5:13 AM on January 26, 2006
srboisvert : "How about an extension that kewlfiles anyone who uses the term 'meh'?"
You just used the term 'meh'.
Shit. Now I did too.
posted by graventy at 5:46 AM on January 26, 2006
You just used the term 'meh'.
Shit. Now I did too.
posted by graventy at 5:46 AM on January 26, 2006
The problem is less new users than old users who are assholes. Most of whom are political junkies. They come to Metafilter to piss on one another in the political threads in golden showers of righteous anger. Matt could not possibly delete every rude off topic attack in those threads. (Especially since every precious snowflake starts a MetaTalk thread when his bile is deleted.) But every one that stays establishes a precedent for bad behavior. And it poisons the whole site.
After the 2004 elections Matt announced that he was going to clamp down on the political posts, allow a few of them but delete most. Which lasted for, I don't know, a few months. Then he stopped, and the floodgates opened.
My guess is that Matt has himself become more political, and decided to let MetaFilter evolve into more of a left-wing political blog. Sort of Daily Kos + Hasselhoff.
posted by LarryC at 6:24 AM on January 26, 2006
After the 2004 elections Matt announced that he was going to clamp down on the political posts, allow a few of them but delete most. Which lasted for, I don't know, a few months. Then he stopped, and the floodgates opened.
My guess is that Matt has himself become more political, and decided to let MetaFilter evolve into more of a left-wing political blog. Sort of Daily Kos + Hasselhoff.
posted by LarryC at 6:24 AM on January 26, 2006
My guess is that Matt has himself become more political, and decided to let MetaFilter evolve into more of a left-wing political blog. Sort of Daily Kos + Hasselhoff.
Which would be a cogent, worthwhile observation if and only if he deleted posts from the right-of-center contingent.
posted by Rothko at 6:46 AM on January 26, 2006
Which would be a cogent, worthwhile observation if and only if he deleted posts from the right-of-center contingent.
posted by Rothko at 6:46 AM on January 26, 2006
Which would be a cogent, worthwhile observation if and only if he deleted posts from the right-of-center contingent.
No matter how many times you insist on this, it won't make it true.
No matter how many times you insist on this, it won't make it true.
No matter how many times you insist on this, it won't make it true.
posted by yerfatma at 6:57 AM on January 26, 2006
No matter how many times you insist on this, it won't make it true.
No matter how many times you insist on this, it won't make it true.
No matter how many times you insist on this, it won't make it true.
posted by yerfatma at 6:57 AM on January 26, 2006
I can survive the signal to noise issue and the political vitriol by simply ignoring most of it but there is one thing that I really think is poisoning the well and that's the sockpuppet issue.
There is always a little voice in the back of my head saying "Are you being played for a sucker again?" whenever a new user shows up with strong political opinions. Without confidence in the identity system here my feeling that this place is a community of interesting individuals who you can gradually get to know has been replaced with a sense that it RTS game where units are being mass manufactured to achieve some silly argumentative victory.
That we have lost the sense of members as individual people is not so surprising when there is no confidence that they are actually unique individuals instead of a crude botnet of social psychological attitude manipulations by some disgruntled holder of a minortiy viewpoint and a wallet full of fivers.
Not to mention that some people can crap on the floor in front of everyone and then simply reincarnate with a new username.
posted by srboisvert at 7:23 AM on January 26, 2006
There is always a little voice in the back of my head saying "Are you being played for a sucker again?" whenever a new user shows up with strong political opinions. Without confidence in the identity system here my feeling that this place is a community of interesting individuals who you can gradually get to know has been replaced with a sense that it RTS game where units are being mass manufactured to achieve some silly argumentative victory.
That we have lost the sense of members as individual people is not so surprising when there is no confidence that they are actually unique individuals instead of a crude botnet of social psychological attitude manipulations by some disgruntled holder of a minortiy viewpoint and a wallet full of fivers.
Not to mention that some people can crap on the floor in front of everyone and then simply reincarnate with a new username.
posted by srboisvert at 7:23 AM on January 26, 2006
Might I unlurk for a moment and give you a five-dolla n00b's perspective?
I've been reading this site for a couple of years, but only finally decided to give Matt my five bucks about a week ago. Much of the reason for my hesitation was right here in the grey, some of it here in this thread. The pissing, dear God, the pissing.
It's actually interesting (to me, anyway) to think about -- this is a fantastic assemblage of people from all walks of life, all professions, all areas of expertise, literally almost no topic of conversation that doesn't have an expert (or at least someone knowledgeable) at hand. Yet often the pissing is just so very bad that it completely overshadows all that goodness, and leaves Metafilter looking less like the collective über-brain that it is and more like Jerry Springer with post-graduate degrees. The discussions in most of the political threads and every single MeTa callout thread become at best a guilty pleasure.
This does two things: first, it potentially drives away quality members who don't feel like dealing with it because they've got better things to do (remember UncleFes?), and second, it attracts legions of drooling fucktards who feed off the hate and want to stir the pot even faster. The bile level rises, post quality on the blue deteriorates, and the sense of community evaporates faster than a bathtub of rubbing alcohol in low orbit. I'd make up my mind to put in my five bucks, but then I'd read a thread either here or in the blue and slink back away, telling myself I'd have to think about it some more.
I think it was stavros who played devil's advocate sometime back and said that the front page was, on the whole, really not all that great anymore, and really the community was the most interesting thing about the site. With the exception of the occasionally truly great post (I remember y2karl's Blind Willie Johnson post like it was yesterday -- that one blew my mind), he's absolutely right. I'm a Monkeyfilter member as well, and most days MeFi's front page really doesn't blow my hair back any harder than MoFi's does, and while I dearly love our community over there, it's not often enough that I read a post that really makes me drop everything and dive in headfirst. I do what I can to contribute, but I'm usually only good for picking the low-hanging fruit. So I embrace the community and do what I can to keep it a community.
I finally decided to join up for two reasons: AskMe is one of the best damn things about the entire internet, worth ten times the asking price, and Matt really deserves to be paid for the work he does around here. Cleanup alone has to occupy hours of his and jessamyn's time. I made the decision to limit my participation strictly to the green, a rule I'm breaking now in the hopes that some of you will find something worthwhile in this long-winded comment.
Having the gates closed for so long is what resulted in the flood of people who wanted to sit at the cool kid's table and didn't care to learn about the community or what it's trying to be. Locking the doors again will only fix that if you never reopen them ever, and Matt seems to want MeFi to be for everyone, from what I've seen. Cthulhu bless him and his endless patience for that. But the only solution then is going to be either heavier moderation of the site, which bears its costs, or more self-imposed restraint on the part of its members. MeFi may be too big for all that now, but perhaps the ship can still be steered.
Sorry to rattle on so. Hope you found some of that useful or enlightening.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:41 AM on January 26, 2006
I've been reading this site for a couple of years, but only finally decided to give Matt my five bucks about a week ago. Much of the reason for my hesitation was right here in the grey, some of it here in this thread. The pissing, dear God, the pissing.
It's actually interesting (to me, anyway) to think about -- this is a fantastic assemblage of people from all walks of life, all professions, all areas of expertise, literally almost no topic of conversation that doesn't have an expert (or at least someone knowledgeable) at hand. Yet often the pissing is just so very bad that it completely overshadows all that goodness, and leaves Metafilter looking less like the collective über-brain that it is and more like Jerry Springer with post-graduate degrees. The discussions in most of the political threads and every single MeTa callout thread become at best a guilty pleasure.
This does two things: first, it potentially drives away quality members who don't feel like dealing with it because they've got better things to do (remember UncleFes?), and second, it attracts legions of drooling fucktards who feed off the hate and want to stir the pot even faster. The bile level rises, post quality on the blue deteriorates, and the sense of community evaporates faster than a bathtub of rubbing alcohol in low orbit. I'd make up my mind to put in my five bucks, but then I'd read a thread either here or in the blue and slink back away, telling myself I'd have to think about it some more.
I think it was stavros who played devil's advocate sometime back and said that the front page was, on the whole, really not all that great anymore, and really the community was the most interesting thing about the site. With the exception of the occasionally truly great post (I remember y2karl's Blind Willie Johnson post like it was yesterday -- that one blew my mind), he's absolutely right. I'm a Monkeyfilter member as well, and most days MeFi's front page really doesn't blow my hair back any harder than MoFi's does, and while I dearly love our community over there, it's not often enough that I read a post that really makes me drop everything and dive in headfirst. I do what I can to contribute, but I'm usually only good for picking the low-hanging fruit. So I embrace the community and do what I can to keep it a community.
I finally decided to join up for two reasons: AskMe is one of the best damn things about the entire internet, worth ten times the asking price, and Matt really deserves to be paid for the work he does around here. Cleanup alone has to occupy hours of his and jessamyn's time. I made the decision to limit my participation strictly to the green, a rule I'm breaking now in the hopes that some of you will find something worthwhile in this long-winded comment.
Having the gates closed for so long is what resulted in the flood of people who wanted to sit at the cool kid's table and didn't care to learn about the community or what it's trying to be. Locking the doors again will only fix that if you never reopen them ever, and Matt seems to want MeFi to be for everyone, from what I've seen. Cthulhu bless him and his endless patience for that. But the only solution then is going to be either heavier moderation of the site, which bears its costs, or more self-imposed restraint on the part of its members. MeFi may be too big for all that now, but perhaps the ship can still be steered.
Sorry to rattle on so. Hope you found some of that useful or enlightening.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:41 AM on January 26, 2006
srboisvert writes "That's because Anyone is now posting using a sock puppet account named Nobody."
Amen.
posted by OmieWise at 7:43 AM on January 26, 2006
Amen.
posted by OmieWise at 7:43 AM on January 26, 2006
monju_bosatsu writes "I agree with dios, and let me beat my favorite drum: Matt needs to close membership again. The site has gotten too big, too fast, and needs time to settle."
I agree with dios and monju_bosatu, also.
posted by OmieWise at 7:48 AM on January 26, 2006
I agree with dios and monju_bosatu, also.
posted by OmieWise at 7:48 AM on January 26, 2006
No matter how many times you insist on this, it won't make it true.
I don't follow you: Are you saying Matt does delete posts that don't agree with his political view, whatever it is? Do you have evidence of this?
posted by Rothko at 8:00 AM on January 26, 2006
I don't follow you: Are you saying Matt does delete posts that don't agree with his political view, whatever it is? Do you have evidence of this?
posted by Rothko at 8:00 AM on January 26, 2006
If I may...
Metafilter: I'm not precisely sure what you're referring to, so I'll just blather on a bit about something related, perhaps, because I'm all coffeed up.
posted by Football Bat at 8:49 AM on January 26, 2006
Metafilter: I'm not precisely sure what you're referring to, so I'll just blather on a bit about something related, perhaps, because I'm all coffeed up.
posted by Football Bat at 8:49 AM on January 26, 2006
Rothko: My point was not that Matt's administration has any political bias, I don't think it does. But given the solidly lefty nature of the membership here, he doesn't have to. If he allows this to become a political site--and I think he has--it isn't going to be Little Green Footballs.
(Necessary Disclaimer: I am a lefty, I am a political animal, I just don't think Metafilter handles politics well.)
posted by LarryC at 8:58 AM on January 26, 2006
(Necessary Disclaimer: I am a lefty, I am a political animal, I just don't think Metafilter handles politics well.)
posted by LarryC at 8:58 AM on January 26, 2006
Could we make the site a bit more like "the Island" and have a lottery where once a week a random member is taken out back, cut up for his organs and dumped in a ditch somewhere? (Of course that's all a metaphor for banning)
p.s I found a cool site that posts scans people have made of their cats, I'm working on a FPP right now, with lots of indepth history, various politcal viewpoints, and a few related sites on scanner technology, it's going to be killa'!
posted by blue_beetle at 9:01 AM on January 26, 2006
p.s I found a cool site that posts scans people have made of their cats, I'm working on a FPP right now, with lots of indepth history, various politcal viewpoints, and a few related sites on scanner technology, it's going to be killa'!
posted by blue_beetle at 9:01 AM on January 26, 2006
I express my agreement with LarryC and middleclasstool. I definitely oppose closing membership, and only suggest slowing it down as a half-measure.
posted by Eideteker at 9:05 AM on January 26, 2006
posted by Eideteker at 9:05 AM on January 26, 2006
middleclasstool writes "It's actually interesting (to me, anyway) to think about -- this is a fantastic assemblage of people from all walks of life, all professions, all areas of expertise, literally almost no topic of conversation that doesn't have an expert (or at least someone knowledgeable) at hand."
Actually there's at least one profession that no one on metafilter that I'm aware of has any expertise or experience in: Politics. I'm not saying this as a snark. We've had screenwriters up the wazoo come out and claim their profession, doctors, lawyers, immigration archivists, editors, Legendary Portugese Writers, librarians, sysadmins, you name it we've almost certainly had it. But, to my knowledge at least, we've never had someone say "I'm a political aide to a senator," or "I'm a political correspondent at a news organization," or anything remotely similar to that.
which leads me to believe that where the political discussion is concerned it's an interesting way to gauge what joe average decently educated iternet user things, but other than that it's a whole lot of what the bg's might call "ass talkin'."
But that doesn't change the fact that your post was excellent and food for thought which I am currently chewing. I flagged it as fantastic.
posted by shmegegge at 9:20 AM on January 26, 2006
Actually there's at least one profession that no one on metafilter that I'm aware of has any expertise or experience in: Politics. I'm not saying this as a snark. We've had screenwriters up the wazoo come out and claim their profession, doctors, lawyers, immigration archivists, editors, Legendary Portugese Writers, librarians, sysadmins, you name it we've almost certainly had it. But, to my knowledge at least, we've never had someone say "I'm a political aide to a senator," or "I'm a political correspondent at a news organization," or anything remotely similar to that.
which leads me to believe that where the political discussion is concerned it's an interesting way to gauge what joe average decently educated iternet user things, but other than that it's a whole lot of what the bg's might call "ass talkin'."
But that doesn't change the fact that your post was excellent and food for thought which I am currently chewing. I flagged it as fantastic.
posted by shmegegge at 9:20 AM on January 26, 2006
But given the solidly lefty nature of the membership here, he doesn't have to.
What "lefty" nature? I really don't see this site as anywhere near a "leftist" paradise. Opposing policy or better yet, opposing absurdity doesn't have to be pigeonholed into a left/right dynamic. I couldn't tell you whose on the left or the right in this blog.
posted by juiceCake at 9:30 AM on January 26, 2006
What "lefty" nature? I really don't see this site as anywhere near a "leftist" paradise. Opposing policy or better yet, opposing absurdity doesn't have to be pigeonholed into a left/right dynamic. I couldn't tell you whose on the left or the right in this blog.
posted by juiceCake at 9:30 AM on January 26, 2006
excuse me: the beegees
Which would be a cogent, worthwhile observation if and only if he deleted posts from the right-of-center contingent.
My point was not that Matt's administration has any political bias, I don't think it does. But given the solidly lefty nature of the membership here, he doesn't have to. If he allows this to become a political site--and I think he has--it isn't going to be Little Green Footballs.
regarding that: this sums up what I've deduced regarding matt's political moderation of the site.
posted by shmegegge at 9:33 AM on January 26, 2006
Which would be a cogent, worthwhile observation if and only if he deleted posts from the right-of-center contingent.
My point was not that Matt's administration has any political bias, I don't think it does. But given the solidly lefty nature of the membership here, he doesn't have to. If he allows this to become a political site--and I think he has--it isn't going to be Little Green Footballs.
regarding that: this sums up what I've deduced regarding matt's political moderation of the site.
posted by shmegegge at 9:33 AM on January 26, 2006
Whoa, lefty nature? Are there more left-handers like myself on MeFi than in the normal population?
posted by Eideteker at 9:55 AM on January 26, 2006
posted by Eideteker at 9:55 AM on January 26, 2006
No one really knows what Matts thoughts are on this as he hasnt joined the thread.
It's pretty fair to deduce from his absence that he's quite happy to fill up metafilter like some sort of stadium , where presumably we will all be able to talk to each other somehow.
Maybe it will all level out somehow , maybe the site will be sold once it reaches a certain point , who knows ?who would buy it ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 9:58 AM on January 26, 2006
It's pretty fair to deduce from his absence that he's quite happy to fill up metafilter like some sort of stadium , where presumably we will all be able to talk to each other somehow.
Maybe it will all level out somehow , maybe the site will be sold once it reaches a certain point , who knows ?who would buy it ?
posted by sgt.serenity at 9:58 AM on January 26, 2006
What "lefty" nature? I really don't see this site as anywhere near a "leftist" paradise.
Amazing. I guess it won't be a "leftist" paradise until we've expelled every single person who questions the group consensus. And after all, opposition to Bush and religion and the war and all the other things good MeFites oppose isn't "lefty" or "liberal" or any of that stuff, it's just common sense! Right?
posted by languagehat at 10:05 AM on January 26, 2006
Amazing. I guess it won't be a "leftist" paradise until we've expelled every single person who questions the group consensus. And after all, opposition to Bush and religion and the war and all the other things good MeFites oppose isn't "lefty" or "liberal" or any of that stuff, it's just common sense! Right?
posted by languagehat at 10:05 AM on January 26, 2006
After the 2004 elections Matt announced that he was going to clamp down on the political posts, allow a few of them but delete most. Which lasted for, I don't know, a few months. Then he stopped, and the floodgates opened.
Right. That is true.
My guess is that Matt has himself become more political, and decided to let MetaFilter evolve into more of a left-wing political blog. Sort of Daily Kos + Hasselhoff.
WTF? Way, way wrong. What happened after the first paragraph quoted is that I did what any other human being in my position would have done -- I got tired. Tired of reading every stupid thread and deleting and explaining and pleading my case as to why I wanted to maintain some stronghold on the direction of the site.
I thought I've made it clear I have a very low opinion of dailykos. I'm not at all more political -- being at the forefront of the Bush Daily Outrage Chronicles for the past five years now has totally soured me on politics, especially the ax-grinding, extremist, zealot variety, which I would place much of LGF and DailyKos equally into.
I agree with dios above and I've been beating the "argue issues not personalities" drum for about a year now, but obviously need to do a better job making that a mantra that sticks. I delete an average of 4 or 5 comments every day that consist mostly of "I can't wait until ____ shows up in this thread" (insert username). That shit has to stop.
As to the quote of me saying that some users play a game on the site, I'm referring to ParisParamus specifically, who has admitted to me that he plays with members here like a cat plays with a mouse. He knows exactly what will push the buttons of the usual suspects here and pushes them for fun. He can't post right now and has said that he's considering other outlets while he takes some time off. My point in bringing this up is that like dios said this is a community, and putting a handful of users above everyone else (especially those that everyone loves to hate) is poison to the community, and yet, for some reason people just love to constantly make new MetaTalk threads highlighting the users they love to hate, as if that will in any way improve the situation. Clearly, as the last six years have shown, it does not, and just adds fuel to the fire that makes them into infamous members. Just to be perfectly clear here, I don't, at the moment, consider dios to be an infamous member playing games with the site.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:09 AM on January 26, 2006 [1 favorite]
Right. That is true.
My guess is that Matt has himself become more political, and decided to let MetaFilter evolve into more of a left-wing political blog. Sort of Daily Kos + Hasselhoff.
WTF? Way, way wrong. What happened after the first paragraph quoted is that I did what any other human being in my position would have done -- I got tired. Tired of reading every stupid thread and deleting and explaining and pleading my case as to why I wanted to maintain some stronghold on the direction of the site.
I thought I've made it clear I have a very low opinion of dailykos. I'm not at all more political -- being at the forefront of the Bush Daily Outrage Chronicles for the past five years now has totally soured me on politics, especially the ax-grinding, extremist, zealot variety, which I would place much of LGF and DailyKos equally into.
I agree with dios above and I've been beating the "argue issues not personalities" drum for about a year now, but obviously need to do a better job making that a mantra that sticks. I delete an average of 4 or 5 comments every day that consist mostly of "I can't wait until ____ shows up in this thread" (insert username). That shit has to stop.
As to the quote of me saying that some users play a game on the site, I'm referring to ParisParamus specifically, who has admitted to me that he plays with members here like a cat plays with a mouse. He knows exactly what will push the buttons of the usual suspects here and pushes them for fun. He can't post right now and has said that he's considering other outlets while he takes some time off. My point in bringing this up is that like dios said this is a community, and putting a handful of users above everyone else (especially those that everyone loves to hate) is poison to the community, and yet, for some reason people just love to constantly make new MetaTalk threads highlighting the users they love to hate, as if that will in any way improve the situation. Clearly, as the last six years have shown, it does not, and just adds fuel to the fire that makes them into infamous members. Just to be perfectly clear here, I don't, at the moment, consider dios to be an infamous member playing games with the site.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:09 AM on January 26, 2006 [1 favorite]
Matt, thanks for responding--and I take back the Daily Kos + Hasselhoff analogy, which was sloppy and unfair.
But--MetaFilter is becoming more of a political site, and less "best of the web." Shmegge nails it in his linked comment, especially where he says: "At some point MeFi will no doubt just be a news and politics discussion site, when the number of voices that argue in politics threads start coming into MeTa en masse to complain about links to robot monkey toys polluting their political and current events landscape."
Matt, is there any relief in site for those of us (and I think at this point we are a minority) who would like a less political site? Barring daily thread deletions from yourself, there are technical ways (mandatory tags/categories + individual filtering options, or a separate newsfilter section of the site). But if none of those things occur, this will become a political discussion site.
posted by LarryC at 1:11 PM on January 26, 2006
But--MetaFilter is becoming more of a political site, and less "best of the web." Shmegge nails it in his linked comment, especially where he says: "At some point MeFi will no doubt just be a news and politics discussion site, when the number of voices that argue in politics threads start coming into MeTa en masse to complain about links to robot monkey toys polluting their political and current events landscape."
Matt, is there any relief in site for those of us (and I think at this point we are a minority) who would like a less political site? Barring daily thread deletions from yourself, there are technical ways (mandatory tags/categories + individual filtering options, or a separate newsfilter section of the site). But if none of those things occur, this will become a political discussion site.
posted by LarryC at 1:11 PM on January 26, 2006
mathowie: I don't understand why you feel powerless or feel like there is some difficulty in getting your message across. You have all the power. You can effect change very easily. All it takes is for you to make the position clear.
But you have to lead and make clear that everyone else must follow. So, for instance, regarding your comment regarding whether I am a hear to "play games": I guess I appreciate you making it clear that you don't include me in that list. I am a little annoyed by your qualification "at the moment" suggesting you see the potential that I might be here just for playing games. I honestly cannot understand why anyone would have that thought. What would cause someone to wonder whether there is a chance I am here for some reason different than everyone else? Because I disagree with them? I don't see why you would make the effort to clarify something and then leave the door open like that. In my opinion, it runs the risk of undercutting the rest of your post when you suggest that you are tired of personality conflict, as well, because people will feed off of that.
You can change the tenor of this site. You have to start taking a proactive approach. But you can do it. The only thing stopping you is yourself. Will some people complain about your efforts? Of course. People will complain no matter what you do. But people are complaining now, and it is obvisouly not working now, so why not try a change?
You need to make it clear that personality conflict won't be tolerated anymore, if you agree that it is wrong. You need to make it clear that this place isn't for partisan soap-boxing and outrage-airing, if you agree that their quality is sub-par. You need to make your point open to people so they understand. Because it is clear that people won't listen to you unless you show you mean business.
You can do it. I implore you to try. I will do everything I can to help. But you have to be the lead on it.
posted by dios at 1:12 PM on January 26, 2006
But you have to lead and make clear that everyone else must follow. So, for instance, regarding your comment regarding whether I am a hear to "play games": I guess I appreciate you making it clear that you don't include me in that list. I am a little annoyed by your qualification "at the moment" suggesting you see the potential that I might be here just for playing games. I honestly cannot understand why anyone would have that thought. What would cause someone to wonder whether there is a chance I am here for some reason different than everyone else? Because I disagree with them? I don't see why you would make the effort to clarify something and then leave the door open like that. In my opinion, it runs the risk of undercutting the rest of your post when you suggest that you are tired of personality conflict, as well, because people will feed off of that.
You can change the tenor of this site. You have to start taking a proactive approach. But you can do it. The only thing stopping you is yourself. Will some people complain about your efforts? Of course. People will complain no matter what you do. But people are complaining now, and it is obvisouly not working now, so why not try a change?
You need to make it clear that personality conflict won't be tolerated anymore, if you agree that it is wrong. You need to make it clear that this place isn't for partisan soap-boxing and outrage-airing, if you agree that their quality is sub-par. You need to make your point open to people so they understand. Because it is clear that people won't listen to you unless you show you mean business.
You can do it. I implore you to try. I will do everything I can to help. But you have to be the lead on it.
posted by dios at 1:12 PM on January 26, 2006
holy shit, Rothko dragging shit from another thread into a discussion dios was taking part in? you're fucking kidding me.
posted by shmegegge at 5:51 PM on January 26, 2006
posted by shmegegge at 5:51 PM on January 26, 2006
It links to Orthogonality's long list of Dios' lovely "help" within this thread, shmegegge. But you knew that before you snarked already.
In any case, he has a free pass to do what he pleases, no matter how bad his comments, so everything's fine and dandy, emperor's lookin' sharp with this year's fashions, etc. etc.
posted by Rothko at 7:33 PM on January 26, 2006 [1 favorite]
In any case, he has a free pass to do what he pleases, no matter how bad his comments, so everything's fine and dandy, emperor's lookin' sharp with this year's fashions, etc. etc.
posted by Rothko at 7:33 PM on January 26, 2006 [1 favorite]
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Fewer threads are worth clicking in to, it seems to me, these days, which goes more for political subjects than any other. It could be argued that this is little different than it's always been, and I'm sympathetic to that argument. I could have said and probably did say the same thing one or two or three years ago. But noise is increasingly swamping signal these days, I think.
There seems to be less interest in argument as constructive, measured debate as opposed to argument as cockfight these days at Metafilter, and a lot of pissing in threads to mark territory more than for anything else. Postcount++ makes the baby [insert deity here] cry.
The threads in which I learn something or am challenged to think a bit -- the reason I first became engaged in Metafilter in the first place -- still happen, thank goodness. Just not as often, it seems.
No imminent demise predicted, though. So it goes, and it's been said before. I don't know what the solution is, other than instituting a reign of banhammer terror (or some system of publicly handing out probations, like SA) for wilfully disruptive behaviour. And I know Matt's not going to do that. He has a heartwarming faith in people.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:56 PM on January 25, 2006