Obit Guidelines

March 6, 2006 8:35 PM

The Kirby Puckett obit thread has attracted some rather distasteful snark about the propriety of discussing "minor celeb deaths." Are obit threads inevitable? Should they be?
posted by Saucy Intruder to etiquette/policy at 8:35 PM (166 comments total)

Don't you realize that five fresh fish is the sole arbiter of the path that metafilter takes? You fool.
posted by crunchland at 8:37 PM on March 6, 2006

Common sense suggests that it's not your place to tell us who we can and can't mourn.

When removed from its defensive context, this is such an awesome phrase.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 8:42 PM on March 6, 2006

Are obit threads inevitable? Should they be?

Yes; and yes.
posted by timeistight at 8:43 PM on March 6, 2006

FFF made a dick comment.
posted by xmutex at 8:48 PM on March 6, 2006

As the person who posted the link, I can understand fff's snark. I don't think that every person who dies should have a FPP on Metafilter. Still, when I thought about whether or not to post in re Kirby's death, I figured that there were enough reasons to post it to Mefi: his early death, the controversy surrounding his life after baseball, but most of all, the effect that he had on people of a certain generation, and of a certain inclination. Namely, fans of baseball. Mefi isn't just the posting of sites that are the best of the web, IMHO. Sometimes the threads themselves can actually be the best of the web. I think that people have told some really personal, cool stories about how Puckett influenced or inspired them. So, for what it's worth, I can understand fff's initial comment of, "who cares?" but his second comment of, "you shouldn't care about this," seems a bit much.
posted by billysumday at 8:48 PM on March 6, 2006

Minor-celeb deaths are not a path we want MeFi to start heading down.

This comment needs more SCIENCE!
posted by thatweirdguy2 at 8:49 PM on March 6, 2006

As long as breaking news is open game for Metafilter. As long as sports news is open game for Metafilter. As long as features, comics, help columns, letters to the editor, op-eds, photo essays, and advertisements are open game for this metanewspaper. Then we should expect obits.

Next up: classifieds.
posted by ?! at 9:03 PM on March 6, 2006

Classifieds? Been there, done that.
posted by cribcage at 9:10 PM on March 6, 2006

fff is an asshole. He made one comment early on in a juvenile attempt to derail the thread and when that didn't work he actually came back and tried again. Just. Ignore. Him. Luckily, it still turned out to be a great thread. Thanks for posting it, bill.
posted by nixerman at 9:10 PM on March 6, 2006

FFF doesn't own a TV.
posted by cellphone at 9:13 PM on March 6, 2006

I pretty much agree with five fresh fish, though not with his methods.
posted by cillit bang at 9:17 PM on March 6, 2006

i think there's no better application for the "if you don't care, just skip it" rule than obits

let those who care post ... let those who don't do something else
posted by pyramid termite at 9:21 PM on March 6, 2006

If we can have 9/11 threads, we can have Kirby Pucket's dead rotting corpse on the front page.

I'd prefer FFF's, though. JUST KIDDING LOL OGOD SIGH
posted by cellphone at 9:24 PM on March 6, 2006

You know how, if you work in an office with, like, fifty or so people, it seems like it's someone's birthday every week or so?

Basically the same thing here. People die every day. Famous ones, too. I'm not for banning post-bituaries, but, you know...use 'em sparingly, please.
posted by ColdChef at 9:24 PM on March 6, 2006

To anyone who ever liked baseball, Kirby Puckett was in no way a 'minor celebrity.' He represents not only the game from that era but also everything great about the sport itself. His passing is very sad, and FFF can fuck off for pissing all over the thread with his little smug indignation.
posted by xmutex at 9:44 PM on March 6, 2006

props to cellphone for noticing the the unintentional comedy from the 911 transcript.
posted by puke & cry at 9:48 PM on March 6, 2006

To anyone who ever liked baseball, Kirby Puckett was in no way a 'minor celebrity.'

And to everyone else, who gives a shit?
posted by puke & cry at 9:51 PM on March 6, 2006

And to everyone else, who gives a shit?

And yeah, you could say that about anyone who died and what they meant to people, jackass.
posted by xmutex at 9:52 PM on March 6, 2006

I think fff's comment was distasteful and a terrible way to make his point, but I have to agree with the sentiment to a certain extent. I only care about obit threads when it is someone I don't know much about and there are a plethora of links that flesh out his or her life and contributions.

Other than that, how many times must Metafilter litter a thread with periods over some two-bit celebs death? As someone pointed out in the thread, Kirby's death was front page news. Isn't this the very definition of newsfilter? Lately, Metafilter has turned into "Best of the Morgue" instead of "Best of the Web."
posted by Falconetti at 9:57 PM on March 6, 2006

And yeah, you could say that about anyone who died and what they meant to people, jackass.

And?
posted by cillit bang at 10:03 PM on March 6, 2006

If they aren't posted here, where will people post their "."s?
posted by smackfu at 10:07 PM on March 6, 2006

Everyone gets a chance to make a front page post every day. Unless it breaks the guidelines, or is a double post, the subject matter is up to the person who posts it.
posted by crunchland at 10:09 PM on March 6, 2006

zen crunchland has spoken.
posted by puke & cry at 10:16 PM on March 6, 2006

I think the comment total is what's important. Even with the back & forth some are partaking in it seems that lots of MeFi-ers liked him enough to comment. I mean, he couldn't be THAT minor. So clearly people find it worth their while, which is the definition of a good FPP.
posted by apple scruff at 10:18 PM on March 6, 2006

.................................................................................
posted by blue_beetle at 10:27 PM on March 6, 2006

So clearly people find it worth their while, which is the definition of a good FPP.

I could post a microsoft sucks column from a pro apple site and you would have two hundred members finding it worth their while to comment.

And that wouldn't be the definition of a good fpp.
posted by justgary at 10:30 PM on March 6, 2006

Everyone gets a chance to make a front page post every day. Unless it breaks the guidelines, or is a double post, the subject matter is up to the person who posts it.

I tried to find something to argue with there, and failed. Although it does kinda fly in the face of what I thought the best posts always have been: when someone stumbles across something so cool they just have to share it. Subject matter first, (primary) linky second seems not quite right, to me. That's just me talkin', though.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:31 PM on March 6, 2006

You know, one of the nice things about a community is the way it can come together around a shared loss.

And it goes without saying...if the loss isn't one you share, stay out. Leave it to those who are grieving.

FFF shouldn't have dumped on the Kirby Puckett thread anymore than he should walk down to the local funeral parlor during a wake, to tell the mourners how their loss doesn't affect him, how it's not a tragedy in comparison to some other tragedy, it bores him, it's unimportant in his opinion of the grand scheme of things...

how tasteless
posted by edverb at 10:40 PM on March 6, 2006

Well said.
posted by Duncan at 10:51 PM on March 6, 2006

Take this FWIW... I learned of Kirby Puckett's death here on MeFi, I was alone with no one to talk to but my dogs, and it hit me right in the gut.

I was glad to hear other people discussing his legacy as a ballplayer and as a man, warts and all. It was comforting.

Here's an apropos quote from an unlikely source, the movie City Slickers:

Phil: So, do you hate baseball?

Bonnie : No, I like baseball. I just never understood how you guys could spend so much time discussing it. I mean, I've been to games, but I don't memorize who played third base for Pittsburgh in 1960.

Mitch: Don Hoak.

Phil and Ed: Don Hoak.

Mitch: Beat you.

Bonnie : See, that's exactly what I mean.

Phil: So, what do you and your friends talk about, out there?

Bonnie : Well, real life. Relationships. Are they working, are they not. Who she's seeing, is that working.

Ed: No contest, we win.

Bonnie : Why?

Ed: Honey, if that were as interesting as baseball, they'd have cards for it and sell it with gum.

Mitch: And I see by the sun it's time for you to hibernate again.

Phil: You're right, I suppose. I guess, I mean it is childish, but when I was about 18 and my dad and I couldn't communicate about anything at all, we could still talk about baseball. That was real.

I learned about the passing of one of my childhood heroes here, and mourned his loss along with MeFites with whom I've never had a word in agreement until a baseball great was the subject, and it was real.

FWIW.
posted by edverb at 10:53 PM on March 6, 2006

Crapping in a thread on the internet is not the same as disrupting an actual wake.

If we are going to have six obit threads a day, can we at least make them more than one link? Like I said above, they are more palatable when a poster fleshes them out with information about the person, so that even those who don't know much about the deceased can see why it is important.
posted by Falconetti at 10:54 PM on March 6, 2006

We've had this discussion many times before. billysumday, the post might have been better with a little context from a couple of other links. Starting an obit thread with just the short news of someone's death is kind of lame; if you really care about the person, can't you care enough to eulogize them a little bit better than that? Tell those of us who are unfamiliar with your subject why we should care and you might head off some of the fff-esque snark.

But yeah, shitting in obit threads is particularly ugly; fff's decision to jump in and "[shrug]" is ridiculous, not least because it will have no useful effect on future obit threads at the site. All it does is make the place meaner.
posted by mediareport at 10:57 PM on March 6, 2006

If they aren't posted here, where will people post their "."s?

If I may post a dumb question .... what's up with those abundant "." posts? Are they the residual detritus of some comment that the poster or someone else later saw fit to delete? I find it odd that there are so many "."s.
posted by PlanoTX at 10:59 PM on March 6, 2006

FFF shouldn't have dumped on the Kirby Puckett thread anymore than he should walk down to the local funeral parlor during a wake, to tell the mourners how their loss doesn't affect him, how it's not a tragedy in comparison to some other tragedy, it bores him, it's unimportant in his opinion of the grand scheme of things...

no, I would say there's a pretty big difference between barging in on a private grieving party and posting someone's death on a community weblog. This isn't some sanctuary for grieving. You'll have to deal if most people never heard of the guy and don't care.
posted by puke & cry at 11:01 PM on March 6, 2006

PlanoTX, you're making texans look bad.
posted by puke & cry at 11:01 PM on March 6, 2006

justgary writes "I could post a microsoft sucks column from a pro apple site and you would have two hundred members finding it worth their while to comment. "

We're differing on what "worth their while" is. I think yet another FPP about the evils of Microsoft would occupy a different place in someone's heart than an FPP about the death of a beloved athlete, and I think the nature of the comments would be quite different too. Comment totals don't tell all, but they do indicate that a certain person wasn't insubstantial or minor, which was my point.
posted by apple scruff at 11:02 PM on March 6, 2006

I barely refrained from posting worse snark in that thread and I sympathise with fff. I certainly don't understand why anyone would care about the death of some ball player I've never heard of (or even one I had heard of) but clearly lots people do care and want to discuss it.
I'm just glad that Kirby Puckett has stopped beating his wife.
posted by Zetetics at 11:08 PM on March 6, 2006

fff being a total douchebag. what a fuckin' surprise.

for the record, if I recall correctly Kirby Puckett is in the motherfucking Baseball Hall Of Fame at Cooperstown. And baseball, as played by professional american athletes, is watched and appreciated around the world.

Hopefully fish will flame out in this thread and never come back.
posted by shmegegge at 11:13 PM on March 6, 2006

And baseball, as played by professional american athletes, is watched and appreciated around the world.

no, sorry. There are a lot of people in the hall of fame that most people don't know or care about. And being in it isn't a good measure for being posted here.
posted by puke & cry at 11:19 PM on March 6, 2006

yes it is, and there are a lot of people outside of america who watch and care about american baseball. I'm an american and I hate baseball, and I know who he is just because of how many people I know outwardly admired the man when I was a kid. what makes someone worth posting about isn't who DOESN'T know about him, but who does. there are tons of people who didn't know who Ivor Cutler is, but you don't see that shit going down in that thread. you don't know what you're talking about.
posted by shmegegge at 11:22 PM on March 6, 2006

I agree with the idea Falconetti and Mediareport mentioned, about including more links in an obit thread to flesh out that person's life and contributions.

Puke and Cry: I would say there's a pretty big difference between barging in on a private grieving party and posting someone's death on a community weblog.

Of course there is, never said it was the same...just that one should do this anymore than one should do that. But if there's an analog between this online community gathering in a thread to discuss the death of someone important to them, and the same thing in real life, you'd be hard pressed to find a better one. But of course it's not the same.

You'll have to deal if most people never heard of the guy and don't care.

I dunno...generally, people don't post three times to tell you how little they care about a subject. For example, I've never heard of the subject of tonight's other obituary FPP...I don't know who that was, and don't actually care. I respectfully leave it to those who do. I would consider it in poor taste to remind them three times how it's not a tragedy, not important, screwing up MeFi, [yawn] etc.

I'm genuinely not trying to get snarky with you Puke & Cry, I hope you see that what I'm saying is simple enough.
posted by edverb at 11:35 PM on March 6, 2006

PlanoTX, you're making texans look bad. How so?

Btw, though I am located in Texas, I'm actually a damned Yankee (fwiw).

I acknowledged that asking about "."s might be a dumb question. Does that mean I get only dumb answers?
posted by PlanoTX at 11:40 PM on March 6, 2006

PlanoTX: The Period from MeFi Wiki
posted by edverb at 11:47 PM on March 6, 2006

Even though it's just two comments above, I'm requoting this so that perhaps a little bit of it's brilliance will be associated with me:

edverb: ...generally, people don't post three times to tell you how little they care about a subject. For example, I've never heard of the subject of tonight's other obituary FPP...I don't know who that was, and don't actually care. I respectfully leave it to those who do.

They "You're wasting periods!!! Somewhere in a third world country, a struggling writer can't finish a sentence because of you!" crowd should go suck an egg.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:30 AM on March 7, 2006

*The "..." crowd. The.
/Waves farewell to associated brilliance.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:33 AM on March 7, 2006

People seem to think that:

a) Metafilter will eventually be full, with no room for new posts, and thus:
b) If people post stuff they're not interested in, they're hastening the useful life of the 'Filter for them.

Which is bullshit. This is a community blog. It's not five fresh fish's blog, nor mine, nor even mathowie's... The reason it's interesting is because many people post on many different subjects - that's the community aspect. And because of that, there will always be posts that don't initially interest you, but moreso, there will always be later posts that might.

So when you come across a post you don't know anything about, you can:

a) Read it and learn something new, or
b) pass it by, and look for the next one you care for...

Why people think there's a third option of:

c) Shit in the thread because "omfg! Something I don't know or care about! And I'm the final arbiter of taste, knowledge and compassion in this world! Aren't I? I mean, aren't I?"

Well no. You fucking aren't.
posted by benzo8 at 1:23 AM on March 7, 2006

I think benzo8 hit it on the head. Is there a bet amongst every asshole on MetaFilter to see who can leave a comment in every thread? The people who comment in every thread come off as the annoying person at a party who just loves to hear himself/herself talk as everybody else rolls their eyes and whispers amongst themselves, "Who invited them here?"

Think of this place as a big, giant mall. There is a store for everyone there, but most of the stores will not have what you're looking for. Just as MetaFilter has a thread for everyone here, but most of the threads will not have what you're looking for. You don't walk into Victoria's Secret and bitch at them for not carrying knives and Lego sets, do you? So for fuck's sake, realize that not every thread needs your dumb-ass, snarky, worthless, pissing-in-the-wind, axe-grinding, flame bait, trollish, useless beautiful comments in them, just move along to the next store thread or mosey on down to the food court your own fucking blog!
posted by Mijo Bijo at 2:16 AM on March 7, 2006

Maybe it's not like telling people at a funeral how insignificant is the event and person they are there about. It does sound like honking at a funeral procession because it's delaying your trip to the 7-11, though. Makes you look like a jerk, and has no real effect on traffic.

I see lots and lots of threads about stuff of no interest to me. Mostly, I don't read them. If other people want to memorialize a HOF ball player, or a third-tier cowboy actor, let them. My not caring as much as they do doesn't give me a pass to honk at their procession.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:39 AM on March 7, 2006

the "hey! check out my bellybutton" thread has attracted some rather distasteful snark about the propriety of discussing "copious navel fuzz." are placental connection vector threads inevitable? should they be?
posted by quonsar at 4:24 AM on March 7, 2006

belly button lint is a good fire-starter. I have some. wanna start a fire?
posted by carsonb at 5:04 AM on March 7, 2006

.

I also think the periods are stupid. Say something meaningful or get the fuck out of my thread. I realize not everyone can be as eloquent as Kat Allison, but it's a very fine line between trite and respectful. It's just my cynical opinion, but it seems to become a game of who can post the most periods quickest, and who can accumulate the most. No one, celebrity or otherwise, should have their life measured by participation in an online forum.
posted by Eideteker at 5:12 AM on March 7, 2006

Oh, and just in case it wasn't clear; I was serious about moving to a digest format. MetaFilter's not for news, so timeliness doesn't matter.
posted by Eideteker at 5:14 AM on March 7, 2006

Also, can I get a t-shirt that says: "I kept it out of the thread and took it to MeTa!" I take XL, but can wear an XXL if you're out.
posted by Eideteker at 5:16 AM on March 7, 2006

The guy who gave us this is complaining about the quality of FPPs.
posted by rocket88 at 6:26 AM on March 7, 2006

.
posted by geekyguy at 6:32 AM on March 7, 2006

I bet if the post had said "Hall of Fame ballplayer Kirby Puckett has died..." it wouldn't have annoyed FFF and the rest of us who had no idea who he was. That way, we could have said, ah, dead sports guy, don't care, move on. But the way it was phrased said we should know and care who the guy was, so we have to click to find out and then we're all like, meh.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:53 AM on March 7, 2006

Looks like today is off to a great start. A obit on Toure and one on Dana Reeves, wife of CHristopher Reeves, which has one link to the Washington Post.

The Toure one is a wasted opportunity because there is so much one could link to about him that is interesting and enlightening. This links to Allmusic (twice!) and the CIA fact sheet on Mali. Terrible.

The Reeves one is inexplicable because I genuinely don't know why anyone would care (I know that she did a lot for him, or whatever, but if she passes muster for an obit, then half the NYT obit page will be appearing as a FPP on Metafilter).
posted by Falconetti at 7:10 AM on March 7, 2006

Worse than that, they spelt his/her name wrong. They must really care.
posted by cillit bang at 7:12 AM on March 7, 2006

See, I haven't any interest in that Puckett guy, but the death of Dana Reeves surprised and saddened me. So much tragedy, and she didn't even smoke.
Different strokes.
That said, none of these posts pass the "most people haven't seen it" test.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:15 AM on March 7, 2006

I happily join those who don't give a fuck about what five fresh fish thinks of anything. but yes, obit posts are pretty difficult to compose, and some of them are pretty lame (and, as in poor Dana Reeve's case, at least a poster could try to spell the dead person's name right)
posted by matteo at 7:16 AM on March 7, 2006

I bet if the post had said "Hall of Fame ballplayer Kirby Puckett has died..." it wouldn't have annoyed FFF and the rest of us who had no idea who he was. That way, we could have said, ah, dead sports guy, don't care, move on. But the way it was phrased said we should know and care who the guy was, so we have to click to find out and then we're all like, meh.

Really? That seems really self-centered.
posted by billysumday at 7:26 AM on March 7, 2006

I dunno. Seems more self centered to assume everyone knows the same things you do.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:31 AM on March 7, 2006

I posted a comment immediately saying that he was a baseball player?
posted by billysumday at 7:34 AM on March 7, 2006

To take some sort of personal affront, like, "huzzah! I don't know who this person is! are you calling me a fool, sir?!" seems self-centered. Obviously we can go back and forth on it.
posted by billysumday at 7:35 AM on March 7, 2006

If that's your interpretation, let's not.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:36 AM on March 7, 2006

It's just interesting. Because I can sympathize with fff for shrugging his shoulders and saying "meh" but it seems really odd to me to say, "you should have said he was a hall of famer, then none of us would have been mad."
posted by billysumday at 7:38 AM on March 7, 2006

That seems really self-centered

assuning that non-USians are as well-informed about the identity of baseball has-beens as much as you are is pretty self-centered, too.

strangely, outside of the US, Canada, Cuba and Japan people don't seem to care much about baseball. and, strangely, not all of this site's readers seem to be American. not to mention, lots of Americans don't even seem to be baseball fans
posted by matteo at 7:41 AM on March 7, 2006

Billy, people are arguing upthread that obits are fine because you can just skip over them. But if the post doesn't explain who the person was then it's a lot harder to do that.
posted by cillit bang at 7:42 AM on March 7, 2006

Falconetti writes "can we at least make them more than one link? Like I said above, they are more palatable when a poster fleshes them out with information about the person, so that even those who don't know much about the deceased can see why it is important."

Problem is matt punishes this behaviour by leaving up the one link wonder and deleting the well reasoned extensive background post as a "double, post in the thread already on the front page". Unless you know someone is about to die and therefor have had time to prepare.

benzo8 writes "a) Metafilter will eventually be full, with no room for new posts, and thus:
"b) If people post stuff they're not interested in, they're hastening the useful life of the 'Filter for them.

"Which is bullshit."

Not bullshit at all. If we don't at least try to curb the substandard posts (not saying this is one, just in general) as membership grows more posts are made. Metafilter is going to be a lot less useful if a new FPP appears every 5 minutes. A hundred guys as prolific as crunchland would generate 20 FPP per day all by themselves.
posted by Mitheral at 7:46 AM on March 7, 2006

one possible criteria to include in the posting page, which I'm sure has been suggested before is:

Was the person someone who would have "merited" a Mefi post when they were alive?

Based on that criteria I would suggest that Ivor Cutler and Ali Farka Touré "merited" an obit here, Reeves and Plunkett did not.
posted by johnny novak at 7:51 AM on March 7, 2006

strangely, outside of the US, Canada, Cuba and Japan people don't seem to care much about baseball. and, strangely, not all of this site's readers seem to be American. not to mention, lots of Americans don't even seem to be baseball fans
posted by matteo at 9:41 AM CST on March 7 [!]

Your misinformation is typical. You may not like baseball, but it is interesting that you don't consider the many latin countries that love baseball. Mexico, the Dominican Republic, Mexico, Venezuela, and Puerto Rico (yes I know its not a "country") just to name the biggest. Plus you neglect Korea and Taiwan where baseball is an important game. Like I say, you may not like baseball, but just becuase you don't think of the above countries as being important enough to count doesn't mean baseball is not loved by many different peoples.

I'm sorry if so many people can't seem to comes to terms with the fact that a sports star can be loved and missed.
posted by ozomatli at 7:52 AM on March 7, 2006

I can understand your point(s), and I should have included some more information in my post. But I never assumed that EVERYONE would know who Kirby Puckett was. I did, however, assume that if you didn't know who Kirby Puckett was by his name, you weren't going to care how many or what links I posted. There are a ton of posts on Mefi every day that I skip over and think, "don't know 'em." I don't see how that's hard for others to do (maybe I'm being self-centered? hmmm?) or why it provoke such a negative reaction. I think that the quality of comments in the Puckett thread shows that obit threads can be of value to Mefi.
posted by billysumday at 8:01 AM on March 7, 2006

Based on that criteria I would suggest that Ivor Cutler and Ali Farka Touré "merited" an obit here, Reeves and Plunkett did not.

That's Reeve and Puckett.

I posted this because I think that Kirby did deserve a thread, and not just because it was a CNN headline. His retirement from baseball at age 34 due to onsetting blindness, with seven or eight playing years left in him, was unspeakably sad. Then, as Kat Allison noted in thread, the region had to grapple with their idea of Puck as a local folk hero who had just been busted for beating his wife and molesting a stranger in a bathroom. There's a tragic, and quite interesting, story in a hall of fame player who leaves at the peak of his game and slowly commits suicide for ten years.

The FPP just said "Kirby Puckett died." Of course, people who had no idea who he was wouldn't give a shit. It's up to the person who posts the news to convince people to give a shit.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 8:05 AM on March 7, 2006

Well said, ozomatli.
posted by 27 at 8:08 AM on March 7, 2006

i'm surprised no one's yet brought up the most obvious solution: people should just stop dying.

no deaths, nothing to post about, everybody's happy.
posted by lord_wolf at 8:10 AM on March 7, 2006

and Peter Osgood died here last week and Sir Ron Greenwood the week before. Both greats of the footballing world, but definitely not worth a post here.
posted by johnny novak at 8:12 AM on March 7, 2006

and Peter Osgood died here last week and Sir Ron Greenwood the week before. Both greats of the footballing world, but definitely not worth a post here.
posted by johnny novak at 10:12 AM CST on March 7 [!]

Why not? They touched just as many lives as any musician, poet, or painter. Intellectualism and athleticism are not mutually exclusive.
posted by ozomatli at 8:16 AM on March 7, 2006

I did, however, assume that if you didn't know who Kirby Puckett was by his name, you weren't going to care how many or what links I posted.

That was the mistake: not caring to inform the rest of us what was valuable to know about Kirby Puckett's passing. As it stands, the post just seemed lazy, and if you couldn't be bothered to care more, why should anyone else?

None of which excuses the shitting in the thread, of course.
posted by mediareport at 8:17 AM on March 7, 2006

ozomatli:

Who is arguing that sportsmen (and women) are not as worthy as other types? I don't read that interpretation into most of the comments here. Of course, not every athlete is special enough to deserve their own post. Even though I like "Oil Can" Boyd, he is not going to make an FPP when he dies.
posted by Falconetti at 8:24 AM on March 7, 2006

No, Mediareport. It wasn't a mistake. Perhaps it wasn't how you might have made the post, but that doesn't mean it was wrong. There's no right or wrong way to make a post that otherwise abides by the guidelines, no matter how emphatically you state it.
posted by crunchland at 8:28 AM on March 7, 2006

well, 'not interesting to you" does not equal 'minor,' sir. Among baseball fans, Puckett was very well known and admired.
posted by jonmc at 8:29 AM on March 7, 2006

crunchland: the strict constructionist of MeFi guidelines
posted by Falconetti at 8:31 AM on March 7, 2006

Falconetti:

I agree not every sports star's death is FPP material, but then again niether is every famous poet or musician. A lot people on this board seem to have a complusion to shit on any sports related thread just to show us how "hip" they are. I just don't see it to this much extent when some poet or musician died. I am pretty sure I am probably being a bit over sensitve, but when I read many of the posts I read : M'eh he's just a sports guy, who cares? . My point is he trancended sports when he played in Minnesota. He was bigger than big. He wasn't just some sports guy. he is probably the most famous and beloved athlete in Minnesota sports history. That's why his death is FPP news.
posted by ozomatli at 8:38 AM on March 7, 2006

Perhaps it wasn't how you might have made the post, but that doesn't mean it was wrong.

Well, yes, of course. We all speak for ourselves; I take that as a given.
posted by mediareport at 8:38 AM on March 7, 2006

"We all speak for ourselves; I take that as a given."

HAHAHAHA!!!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:41 AM on March 7, 2006

(Nothing personal, mediareport - it's just... is that the royal "We?")
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:42 AM on March 7, 2006

You may take it as a given, but when you state "That was the mistake" leaves no wiggle room for that interpretation.
posted by crunchland at 8:48 AM on March 7, 2006

The problem as I see it is not that obits in themselves are bad but that seeing a few on the front page tends to encourage those desperate to get in an FPP, any FPP, to race to get things up about anyone they hear of who dies.

The result is we end up with a front page full of crappy, often one-link posts about people who've achieved very little. I don't claim that not having heard of someone makes for a bad FPP, in fact it can be a good opportunity for someone to expound on their knowledge and educate us all, but links to news snippets announcing a death doesn't do that.
posted by biffa at 8:50 AM on March 7, 2006

If you don't have anything nice to say, blockquote it.
posted by mischief at 8:56 AM on March 7, 2006

Now, if he'd owned a Kosher deli . . .
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:21 AM on March 7, 2006

I wish Saucy Intruder had made the post. He just made Puckett interesting.
posted by CunningLinguist at 9:22 AM on March 7, 2006

it can be a good opportunity for someone to expound on their knowledge and educate us all, but links to news snippets announcing a death doesn't do that.

Precisely. The problem with these posts isn't that they're obit posts, it's that they're a bit shit. (Though I suppose the Mrs. Reeves one fails on all possible counts - I'm susprised she got an obituary in the newspapers, let alone here.)
posted by jack_mo at 9:25 AM on March 7, 2006

Pretty much everything I'd like to say has been said in this thread. Thank you for a mostly rational discussion on the problem. Shmegegge, you can go fuck yourself in the ear.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:28 AM on March 7, 2006

Not bullshit at all. If we don't at least try to curb the substandard posts (not saying this is one, just in general) as membership grows more posts are made.

Mithereal, this is bullshit. I'm so tired of the "I'm-an-asshole-because-I-love-you" attitude. For one, it's insulting. The people who drop by and shit in threads couldn't care less about the quality of the blue. If they did it would be pretty obvious that their shitting on threads does a lot more damage than a dozen bad FPPs. Like mediareport said, it makes the site meaner. Vendettas happen, threads are derailed, people are discouraged from making FPPs, etc. And if the goal is to make sure future threads don't happen it's pretty clear the tactic is a failure. Did fff's devastating wit prevent more obit threads? Please. People who shit on the blue do so because they're assholes and they know they can get away with it. It has nothing to do with improving the site. This is just a tired excuse that gets trotted out to justify all sorts of childish behavior.

As for obit threads they're not a problem. What percentage of threads over the last week have been obit threads? < 1%? Yeah, they'll be the death of the blue.
posted by nixerman at 9:30 AM on March 7, 2006

death of the blue

Surely that would merit an obit FPP?
posted by matthewr at 9:33 AM on March 7, 2006

but then, the problem with the post has nothing to do with fivefreshfish's douchebaggery, does it? I mean, his/her (I don't know why, I've always gotten the impression that fish is a chick.) point, as poorly though out and expressed as it is, seems to be that it's not worth the front page because he/she doesn't know who the dude is. If he/she'd gone in there saying "I don't know who this is. I wish the post had explained more." then there wouldn't be this metathread.
posted by shmegegge at 9:36 AM on March 7, 2006

fivefreshfish, my name begins with a lower case letter, but don't sweat it. it's not that big a deal.

oh, and you're one of the worst members of metafilter in the history of the site, you intolerable piss stain, you.
posted by shmegegge at 9:37 AM on March 7, 2006

.
posted by jagged glass dildo at 9:39 AM on March 7, 2006

You may not like baseball

I do in fact like it. but, unlike you, I am aware that the World Series are not exactly a world event (feel free to compare them to the final of the forthcoming soccer World Cup, an actual global event, unlike baseball). but maybe you're one of those who think that one billion people worldwide watched the Oscars.

having said that, posts about dead ex-athletes who beat their wives seldom go well here -- and it's not only about baseball, just think of that George Best thread

Mexico, the Dominican Republic, Mexico, Venezuela, and Puerto Rico (yes I know its not a "country")

yeah, you can name Mexico twice in your fun list, but the most popular sport there is soccer, not baseball. also, sorry to break the news, if you want to discuss sports who matter outside the USA, you'd better discuss soccer. baseball -- unlike soccer and, say, basketball -- is a local phenomenon.

Plus you neglect Korea and Taiwan where baseball is an important game.

you forgot Poland!


he is probably the most famous and beloved athlete in Minnesota sports history.

no shit.
posted by matteo at 9:41 AM on March 7, 2006

Now, if he'd owned a Kosher deli . . .

...on 2nd Avenue...
posted by Gator at 9:45 AM on March 7, 2006

This complaining in a thread thing confuses me. If I'm not interested in a topic, I just don't read it. If it's an FPP that violates the rules, I flag it.

Is there some demonstrable benefit that this site gets from members behaving like raging, dismissive assholes in comments?
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:48 AM on March 7, 2006

For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a minor celebrity to enter into the blue without getting piss stains on his shroud.
posted by jagged glass dildo at 9:49 AM on March 7, 2006

This thread is a shining example of why only the loudest and most obnoxious users stick around for any appreciable amount of time. The people who aren't obnoxious get run off.
posted by trey at 9:50 AM on March 7, 2006

matteo, was someone complaining about a soccer thread not belonging on the blue? no? huh. I guess, then, that there's room for BOTH.
posted by shmegegge at 9:54 AM on March 7, 2006

"Is there some demonstrable benefit that this site gets from members behaving like raging, dismissive assholes in comments?"

You mean besides a dramatic increase in new user signups at five bucks a pop?
posted by mischief at 10:00 AM on March 7, 2006

matteo: World Baseball Classic. There's an Italian team.
posted by tiny purple fishes at 10:01 AM on March 7, 2006

Now, if he'd owned a Kosher deli . . .

...on 2nd Avenue...

. . . it would have to be in NYC; 2nd Avenue in Minneapolis wouldn't do.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:32 AM on March 7, 2006

matteo, your comments explain fully why *you* would never post about Kirby Puckett's death. You have a poor grip on baseball's global popularity. You feel (I suppose) that one has to be virtuous to be memorialized in the blue. You feel that the countries that are passionate about baseball are not substantial enough. You don't appreciate Puckett's fame or contributions to the game.

OK, fine...

But there are a significant number of us who disagree. So just drop the poorly-informed argument and move on... OK?

(or, post *your* guidelines for who's obit-worthy and who isn't... because your argument seems kinda arbitrary)
posted by 27 at 10:57 AM on March 7, 2006

oh, and you're one of the worst members of metafilter in the history of the site, you intolerable piss stain, you.
posted by shmegegge

Fap, fap, fap.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:07 AM on March 7, 2006

matteo: World Baseball Classic. There's an Italian team.

You're wasting your time. Matteo doesn't like baseball. He loves soccer. (yes I know he 'says' he likes baseball. I bet he even knows what an 'inning' is... such a fan that matteo is.)
posted by justgary at 11:13 AM on March 7, 2006

Edverb: You answered my redundant question to perfection. Thank you.
posted by PlanoTX at 12:23 PM on March 7, 2006

fap fap fap.
posted by shmegegge at 12:53 PM on March 7, 2006

nixerman writes "Mithereal, this is bullshit. I'm so tired of the 'I'm-an-asshole-because-I-love-you' attitude. For one, it's insulting. The people who drop by and shit in threads couldn't care less about the quality of the blue. If they did it would be pretty obvious that their shitting on threads does a lot more damage than a dozen bad FPPs."

WTF nixerman!? I wasn't defending the fish. Just arguing against the idea that metafilter can handle unlimited posts to the front page. Saying that Metafilter would be useless if we had 4000 posts to the front page everyday doesn't mean I agree with FFF's actions. If just means I think people should at least think a bit about the impact of their post.

This baseball player's obit was a bad post because those of us who had nveer heard of him had no idea who it was, I still wouldn't if I hadn't got the details in this thread. Details which should have been in the post to the blue and might have flipped this post from bad to ok.

johnny I think has a good first criteria for obit posts:
johnny novak writes "Was the person someone who would have 'merited' a Mefi post when they were alive? "

Somebody of local significance (and I mean statemen, religous leaders, football players, scientist and engineers not the wife of a disabled actor) dies in every country every day. I'm tempted to post one obit per country to the FPP for a week to drive the point home. I'd do it too if I wouldn't have to deal with the spawn of satan that is paypal to get a throw away account that would be sure to be banned.
posted by Mitheral at 12:56 PM on March 7, 2006

One of the problems is some people* think they need to read every damn FPP. Even worse some feel a need to comment on every one.

I don't care if there are 100 FPPs per day. I can filter my feed. If I don't want to read about obits I won't.

I can make 365 FPPs a year. So can 10,000 others. Obviously they're not that rare or valuable. You posted a good one? Great! It'll be in the remainder bin tomorrow.

You want them to be really valuable? Make them rare. Let each member post 12 a year.

* - not you
posted by ?! at 1:50 PM on March 7, 2006

Oh noes! Shmegegge got some of my fap in his eye! Bet that stings!
posted by five fresh fish at 2:20 PM on March 7, 2006

To anyone who ever liked baseball, Kirby Puckett was in no way a 'minor celebrity.' He represents not only the game from that era but also everything great about the sport itself. His passing is very sad, and FFF can fuck off for pissing all over the thread with his little smug indignation.
posted by xmutex at 9:44 PM PST on March 6

I liked baseball. I still do. Kinda. (It's hard when the Texas Rangers is your local home team, though.) But to me, Kirby Puckett was, to me, a 'minor celebrity'. I don't see him as especially representative. Maybe typical, but he was hardly the standard bearer for the sport. His death is no great loss for baseball.

I don't mean that disrespectfully, but simply that baseball is no worse off for the death of Kirby Puckett, since he is already long-retired. MLB has already shown they can carry on without him.

Your comment reminds me of why I no longer watch Monday Night Football: It doesn't matter who's playing, one of the receivers out there is, according to the play-by-play guy, "Perhaps the best player of the age!" To which the color guy inevitably responds, "Perhaps the best player ever!"
posted by Doohickie at 2:39 PM on March 7, 2006

An exercise for y'all:

Please explain why I should, or should not, make the following FPPs over the next week. One a day, of course, because that's all I'm allowed. Y'all won't mind, will you?

'Africa's bluesman' Ali Farka Touré, Mali's "John Lee Hooker on a gurkel" has kicked the bucket. RIP, you five-album, world-touring, grammy-winning guy most of us have never heard of!

Tom Hodgson, the "action painter" of Painters Eleven [warning: stupid flash and sound] has, alas, passed beyond our canvas. Godspeed, you ass-kicking abstractionist, you!

Hugh Pickett — surely you know his name! — has died at the age of 92. His death is noted widely throughout the entertainment industry, as he was something of a legend. Back he goes, to exchange witticisms with Dietrich, Garland, Gish, and Hepburn!

Patrick Reiter and Theodorus Tessel [love that name!] were killed in an avalanche near Nakusp. A couple dozen snowmobilers die each year in BC, so for gods' sake, educate yourself!

Dead teenagers! We seem to be involved in some sort of Darwinian contest in this area: we keep losing teens to dumbass drunk driving. Tragedy abounds! My personal hope is that our schools are using this as a learning opportunity. You can, too: show this link to your kids!

---

Alas, I simply can not make an obit post quite as shitty as the one-link-wonders we've been subjected to this week.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:01 PM on March 7, 2006

i retract that last statement: the dead teenagers link is just as shitty.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:02 PM on March 7, 2006

There's already a Toure post. Good job.
posted by trey at 3:15 PM on March 7, 2006

Oh no! Hugh Pickett died?
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:22 PM on March 7, 2006

Better stick to what you're good at, fff. One link longest poop threads.
posted by crunchland at 3:23 PM on March 7, 2006

Talk about shitting on the blue!
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:37 PM on March 7, 2006

baseball is no worse off for the death of Kirby Puckett, since he is already long-retired.

Wow. Well, that standard eliminates pretty much all obit posts of people who don't actually die while in the middle of doing something important. Retired? Forgotten! Makes life much simpler.

Please explain why I should, or should not, make the following FPPs...

Please explain why you're wasting your time and ours by repeating over and over and over how little you care. We don't care how little you care. And you're really getting tiresome.
posted by languagehat at 3:39 PM on March 7, 2006

"Please explain why I should, or should not, make the following FPPs over the next week."

Okay - I'll explain. If you care about any of these, and you have reason to believe that others here will as well, and the (hopefully original) links actually provide some supporting context, then go ahead and post them.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that an FPP has to be interesting to the majority of users here (especially you) to be of value, but that's hogwash. It's the opposite, mostly: I don't care about the majority of the posts on MetaFilter. Including, at first glance, the ones you listed. But I don't happen to assume that I'm the center of the MetaFilter universe, so if I see a post that doesn't interest me - that's right - I skip it. Jumping in to mock those who do care proves nothing, contributes nothing, and by no measure reflects well on you, or the greater community.

Your ennui looks suspiciously like a big, egotistical turd in a punchbowl. Please explain why anyone here should, or should not, treat your dead horse with any more respect than you reserve for their dead heroes?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:27 PM on March 7, 2006

Please explain why you're wasting your time and ours by repeating over and over and over how little you care.

I'm betting it's a side-effect of universal health care.
posted by Cyrano at 4:44 PM on March 7, 2006

And you're really getting tiresome.

getting?
posted by shmegegge at 6:21 PM on March 7, 2006

Shorter:
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that an FPP has to be interesting to the majority of users here (especially you) to be of value,
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:22 PM on March 7, 2006

is that the royal "We?")

Jesus, dude, glad to make you laugh, but no. "We" as in "All of us here" speak for ourselves. Seems to me you'd have to stretch to see it otherwise.
posted by mediareport at 8:42 PM on March 7, 2006

Jesus, get off the dead teenagers thing already, or get a blog.
I don't care if some drunk 17 year old snuffs herself; the fewer boozers on the road the better.
The only thing that's tragic is that those fuckers usually end up taking some innocent people with them.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:53 PM on March 7, 2006

Doohickie: baseball is no worse off for the death of Kirby Puckett, since he is already long-retired. MLB has already shown they can carry on without him.

MLB carried on without Lou Gehrig, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, or Roberto Clemente. The world carries on without millions of people who die each year (verily, even JFK).

If not managing to carry on were the qualifying criterion, there would never be an obit thread at all.
posted by PlanoTX at 9:33 PM on March 7, 2006

I really don't get all the animus directed at fff in this thread. That is all.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:42 PM on March 7, 2006

Well, at least we know Kirby stopped beating his wife.

.
posted by puke & cry at 10:00 PM on March 7, 2006

I think FFF should post all those so I can get right on not giving a shit and skimming over them like I did when I saw the comment.
posted by cellphone at 10:07 PM on March 7, 2006

I really don't get all the animus directed at fff in this thread.

Well, just imagine him parading his utter indifference in the Bali thread. All a matter of whose ox is gored, eh?
posted by languagehat at 5:03 AM on March 8, 2006

I wonder if the death of one guy of natural causes is really all that comparable to the deaths of 202 people in a terrorist attack.
posted by crunchland at 6:12 AM on March 8, 2006

I wonder if that has anything whatever to do with my point. And are you claiming that there should be no obit posts whatever, because one person is only one person? When does human life start acquiring value? By the dozen? The score? Please do let us know.
posted by languagehat at 6:23 AM on March 8, 2006

No. I'm just saying that you're asking stavros to understand why people are upset with fff by comparing a mountain to a molehill.
posted by crunchland at 6:39 AM on March 8, 2006

and furthermore, you haven't been paying attention, and you're obviously itching for a fight.
posted by crunchland at 7:02 AM on March 8, 2006

I'm itching for a fight? You asked a question, I answered it, and you come back with a ridiculous comparison valuable only for fight-starting purposes. But enjoy it, if that's what you enjoy.
posted by languagehat at 7:58 AM on March 8, 2006

mediareport: "Jesus, dude, glad to make you laugh, but no. "We" as in "All of us here" speak for ourselves. Seems to me you'd have to stretch to see it otherwise."

You're misreading me, mediareport. Wasn't impugning or misreading your intent at all. I was just laughing at the logical contradiction of an individual speaking for a group to say that the members of the group speak for themselves. "We all speak for ourselves; I take that as a given," is a perfectly reasonable statement; I happen to agree with it; and I can't think of a better way to say it. But it's still self-contradictory in an odd way that made me laugh, that's all. Kind of like the old gag where a large group taking a pledge together repeat something like, "I pledge to be an individual..." Okay - now I've over-explained it, and it's seeming less and less funny with every word. Ahem. Anyway - sorry. No offense intended. The "Royal we" gag wasn't meant to be taken literally or seriously.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:59 AM on March 8, 2006

Best thread of 2006. *Munches popcorn*
posted by wheelieman at 9:00 AM on March 8, 2006

Doohickie: baseball is no worse off for the death of Kirby Puckett, since he is already long-retired. MLB has already shown they can carry on without him.

MLB carried on without Lou Gehrig, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, or Roberto Clemente. The world carries on without millions of people who die each year (verily, even JFK).

If not managing to carry on were the qualifying criterion, there would never be an obit thread at all.
posted by PlanoTX at 11:33 PM CST on March 7 [!]

The "managed to carry on" wording was sarcasm. The point I was trying to make is that the game was not uniquely changed by Puckett. Those other names you threw out were people who made significant contributions to the way the game was played and set examples that that generations who followed attempted to emulate. Puckett's mark on baseball is hardly discernable.

Remember, too, that my post was made in response to xmutex who said "To anyone who ever liked baseball, Kirby Puckett was in no way a 'minor celebrity.'"

The point of my response was to take exception to the all-encompassing nature of xmutex's remark. There are those who like baseball that barely knew the guy existed. I was aware of him when he played, but he was no more remarkable than an of dozens or even hundreds of other players. He was, in my reckoning, a 'minor celebrity.'
posted by Doohickie at 9:09 AM on March 8, 2006

Actually, not so much sarcasm but more like hyperbole.
posted by Doohickie at 9:10 AM on March 8, 2006

"People die, and others want to talk about them, no big deal."
posted by jeblis at 11:19 AM on March 8, 2006

Well, just imagine him parading his utter indifference in the Bali thread. All a matter of whose ox is gored, eh?

Not at all. People made little penis-shaped emoticons and stuff amidst all the '.'s in the thread someone made about my buddy's death. Didn't bother me, other than in a very general 'some people are a bit fucked' way.

But comparing a nasty comment in an obituary thread for some random celebrity to a nasty comment in a thread about the death of my best friend, and saying that my reaction to them might be different? Well, no shit, Dick Tracy.

Also, what crunchland said.

Also, all that has little to do with what I said, or meant to say. People other than shmeggege, who I have to assume has some personal beef with fff, were shitting on him in a big way in this thread, that seemed out of proportion to the infraction he committed. That was what I was noting.

LH, I'm not sure why you had to make it so personal. Rreally quite unexpectedly vicious of you, actually.

So: bite me, amigo.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:06 PM on March 8, 2006

stavros, once again I'm befuddled by your over-the-top reaction to a mild disagreement on my part. I have no animus against you and intended no "vicious" or "personal" implication of my comment, which was simply intended to explain why people (including me) were pissed at fff. Since he's admitted he was off his meds (unless that was some kind of joke I'm not getting) and posting unwisely, it seems to me you're barking in defense of the wrong tree. Anyway, I like and respect you too much to respond to your final comment, and will assume that once again you got up on the wrong side of the bed. But you might want to turn that bed around.
posted by languagehat at 4:49 PM on March 8, 2006

'Bite me, amigo' over the top? Hardly.

Quite restrained, given the fact that you managed to refer to the very public death of my best friend as an 'ox being gored', in the process of implying that I would have reacted by going ballistic if someone had objected the appropriateness of the thread made about it. And thereby drawing equivalence between the death of some random celebrity and that of someone very dear to me.

If you can't see how that would be something that might be offensive to me -- even if you weren't aware, as I've said before, that that period and the kindness that people showed me and friends here has made Metafilter a place that I find very hard indeed to leave -- and that how I might gotten my back up over that kind of dotted-line, well, then I don't know what to say to you. I hope you stay out of bars, because that kind of blind spot to others' feelings might get you in to a lot of dust-ups.

Twenty-yard penalty for disingenuousness.

I'm not defending fff (although his comment, unless something else was deleted, was entirely innocuous). Like I said an hour ago (and you continue to ignore for some reason) I was commenting solely on unexpected things (mostly from shmeggege, granted) like 'fff is an asshole', 'fff being a total douchebag. what a fuckin' surprise', 'hopefully fish will flame out in this thread and never come back', 'oh, and you're one of the worst members of metafilter in the history of the site, you intolerable piss stain, you', and 'better stick to what you're good at, fff. One link longest poop threads'. These were directed at someone I've always thought was a well-liked member of the community, and one who'd hardly done something unforgivable. Annoying and ill-advised, sure, but not deserving of quite that level of vituperation.

That surprised me.

You decided I needed some schooling, as you so often do. That's fine. It's part of the persona you project here. But I found your simplistic equivalence inappropriate and personally offensive. That's fine too. I'm not holding it against you, but, as I said, it surprised me a bit. But if it had made me angry, or god forbid, 'go over the top', you'd know it.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:21 PM on March 8, 2006

This has got to be a misunderstanding.
posted by crunchland at 5:56 PM on March 8, 2006

Probably. If we had been in a bar, I'd've said 'bite me, amigo', he'd've grinned, I'd've bought him a beer, and done and done. Such is text.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:04 PM on March 8, 2006

Well, if I misinterpreted the "bali thread" reference, then I'm the one at fault. If so, I apologize.
posted by crunchland at 6:12 PM on March 8, 2006

Yeah. (And I'll add that those over-the-top comments about fff were not by me; I agree he's generally a valuable member of the community, which is why I'm always taken aback when he goes all gonzo.)

Also, neither you nor crunchland addressed what I still think is a perfectly good question:

And are you claiming that there should be no obit posts whatever, because one person is only one person? When does human life start acquiring value? By the dozen? The score?
posted by languagehat at 6:14 PM on March 8, 2006

Um, the "Yeah" was directed at stavros.

What the hell, I'll buy you both a drink.
posted by languagehat at 6:15 PM on March 8, 2006

*accepts, looks around for the boss*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:18 PM on March 8, 2006

(And I'll add that those over-the-top comments about fff were not by me; I agree he's generally a valuable member of the community, which is why I'm always taken aback when he goes all gonzo.)

ohgodihatetostepintothisbut...

Pray tell, where did I go "all gonzo"? Other than taunting Shemegge-baby in response to his/her/its abuse, I can't see where on earth you got "all gonzo" from my posts. Enlighten me, please.

And, no, I have absolutely what bug's got up Shemegge's ass. I have no idea who the fuck it is, and why s/he/it's so angry.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:45 PM on March 8, 2006

er, koff-koff. your attention please. has anyone seen my no idea? the one that was paried with absolutely? no? damn. sorry to bother you.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:47 PM on March 8, 2006

paired. sigh, not paried. it's been a hump-busting day. and i suppose it wouldn't be paired, if there's three words involved. longer sigh.

y'know, whatever. make of it what you will. goodnight.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:49 PM on March 8, 2006

the bug up my ass (I'm a guy, btw) is very simply that I see fff being a douchebag often enough to piss me off. I honestly wonder where all the good feeling toward fff comes from, because I haven't seen anything to merit it. Maybe it's an availability heuristic thing, maybe it's mere coincidence regarding what threads I happen to read. But to my recollection fff shits in threads far more than the average bear, makes garbage meta posts about how much he wants to play the asshole role just to try to psych mathowie into deleting more newsfilter threads, responds to every disagreement with snotty remarks and generally contributes negatively to the site without much positive contribution to balance it all out.

so the bug up my ass is that I think fff is a douchebag, and I have reason to think so.
posted by shmegegge at 11:10 PM on March 8, 2006

like attracts like.
posted by crunchland at 4:45 AM on March 9, 2006

Well, fff, obviously you have a different take on your comments than other people reading them tend to. I obviously don't go as far as shmegegge in my reaction, but they do strike me as... well, I guess the precise adjective would differ in each case, but let me put it this way: there was no reason on earth for you to go into that thread and make a point of how you didn't care about it. It comes across as an asshole thing to do. Now, all of us do assholish things from time to time, and I've done my share, but you do come across as someone who 1) does them more often than the average bear, and 2) doesn't apologize or seem to particularly care. I think that's what's got the bug up shmeg's ass. Me, I'm the forgiving sort, and once I've gotten the snark out of my system I'm happy to buy drinks for the house. But there's not much point your taking the "who, me? I din't do nothin'" route when nobody's going to find it convincing.

Just for emphasis: I'm not saying you're an asshole, just that you don't seem to care if you come across as one.
posted by languagehat at 6:10 AM on March 9, 2006

Asshole, sure: that I can buy. I was undoubtedly an asshole for commenting in the death thread instead of MeTa-ing it. I take full responsibility for that action.

But your wording was "all gonzo," and that I don't see. Other than bear-baiting Shemegge in this thread after he got abusive, I see nothing where I was anything but reasonable in my language, both in this thread and the obit thread. Do a search on my name; you'll see I've actually said little.

I am not surprised my obit comment was MeTa'd after I responded to wozzname's question as to why I was snarking. I am surprised at the subsequent vitriole given the shit and abuse that passes for FPP criticism in other threads.

I am disappointed that for all the heat and fury in this thread, nothing was accomplished. No consensus of any sort; as far as I can tell, half the population here would be perfectly happy to see me post my local area's obits every day. I think the "anything goes" crowd is insane.

As for "not caring," read this thread. It's a veritable cesspool of assholism. It seems I was something of a lightening rod for their anger (and, hopefully, in grounding themselves on me, they're less inclined toward anger in MeFi. At least then some good would have come of all this.) I find it difficult to care whether someone things I'm an asshole, when they're being a asshole.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:32 AM on March 9, 2006

...as far as I can tell, half the population here would be perfectly happy to see me post my local area's obits every day...

16881.5 silent members can't be wrong!

I was something of a lightening rod for their anger (and, hopefully, in grounding themselves on me, they're less inclined toward anger in MeFi. At least then some good would have come...

Why the hell would they be angry towards MeFi?
You can come down off your cross now; crucifixion's not nearly as effective when you're the one who nailed yourself to it.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:31 AM on March 9, 2006

Well, that's fair enough, and I wouldn't put too much analysis into my use of "gonzo" if I were you -- as much as I love and care about words, sometimes I just grab one that sounds punchy without worrying too much over exact shades of meaning, and this was one of those times. Feel free to substitute whatever would sound plausible to you. And keep those fish fresh!
posted by languagehat at 10:34 AM on March 9, 2006

No consensus of any sort

You've been here long enough to know that that's just another day on Metafilter.
posted by crunchland at 11:23 AM on March 9, 2006

shmegegge, on the off chance that you visit this thread again, if you're still curious about where all the good feeling toward fff comes from check out his contributions here.
posted by languagehat at 4:49 PM on March 9, 2006

I guess I'll be reading the thread so long as it's still on the first page of my "My Comments" Page. I haven't changed my opinion of fff, except that I retract saying that he is the worst member of the site. I don't follow ask, and he's clearly being remarkably kind and helpful there.
posted by shmegegge at 9:02 PM on March 9, 2006

I'm glad you saw it, and that you felt impelled to at least that minor retraction. Carry on.
posted by languagehat at 5:06 AM on March 10, 2006