That said, I don't want to hear it anymore.

June 16, 2006 8:59 PM

Hey guys, can we take this one out behind the barn and shoot it, already?
posted by Afroblanco to etiquette/policy at 8:59 PM (101 comments total)

68,700 is all I'm sayin'.
posted by Afroblanco at 8:59 PM on June 16, 2006

Surely this is the thread that will stop "that said."
posted by ludwig_van at 9:02 PM on June 16, 2006

That said, somehow I doubt it will be effective.
posted by ludwig_van at 9:02 PM on June 16, 2006

Why?
posted by majick at 9:05 PM on June 16, 2006

Was it Kiekergarde, or Dick Van Patten, that said...
posted by cortex at 9:20 PM on June 16, 2006

Shut up already, Alvy.

That having been said, sod off.
posted by Ryvar at 9:24 PM on June 16, 2006

Fine, but let's keep "That's head!"
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 9:25 PM on June 16, 2006

Who, him?

Oh, that's Ed.
posted by ludwig_van at 9:25 PM on June 16, 2006

Why?

I'm not trying to play language police here (well, maybe a little...), but I just think that a lot of people are unaware of how frequently this turn of phrase is employed on MeFi. I know that since I became aware of it, I've been pretty successful at replacing it with viable alternatives.
posted by Afroblanco at 9:39 PM on June 16, 2006

Davidson asks what the logical form of belief and utterance attributions are. We have to specify ‘Galileo said that p’ for a potentially infinite number of sentences that can occupy the place of p; yet in doing so we must resort to finite means (something he is not sure Quine's analysis succeeds in), i.e. we must assign subsentential structure to p and referents to its components. Yet, as soon as we do this we are forced to license substitutions within p of coreferring expressions; as these are known to fail, Davidson argues that we must be wrong either about the referents in p or about the logical form of the attribution as a whole. After ruling out the first diagnosis, insisting against Frege that the expressions occurring in intensional contexts must have their standard reference, Davidson develops an ingenious analysis of the attribution's logical form. On this analysis, called ‘parataxis’, the attribution splits into two sentences, ‘Galileo said that. p’, where the ‘that’ in the first sentence functions as a demonstrative picking out the second sentence only if the two ‘say the same’ or are identical in meaning (a notion Davidson then analyses in truth-theoretic terms familiar from Essay 2).
posted by blue_beetle at 9:43 PM on June 16, 2006

wow, it's up to 72,000 now. I think you may not have won.
posted by jacalata at 9:46 PM on June 16, 2006

Wow. Loosen up a bit.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:46 PM on June 16, 2006

<<I do not understand this human emotion called 'love'>>, T'haat said.
posted by cortex at 10:06 PM on June 16, 2006

Fine, but let's keep "That's head!"

Best. Comment. Ever.

That said, I am totally shitting you.

What's it called when you think asians are bad drivers because once or twice here and there you've noticed a bad asian driver... "something-something confirmation..."

I've seen a few folks take issue with a particular phrase or way of linking or whatever around here just because it's risen out of the general clamor and become a discernable pattern to them. Once they notice it, every subsequent usage they see is like fingernails on a chalkboard, until they become convinced that the phrase/pattern/whatever is descending like a cloud of locusts to devour us. I'm always impressed by the balls it takes to air such a petty gripe in MeTa.

And yes, I am griping about a pattern I see with people griping about patterns they see. Go figure that out.
posted by scarabic at 10:08 PM on June 16, 2006

Fine, but let's keep "That's head!" I can't think of a way to say this which might not come across as snarkitude, but that is seriously clever.

Psst! Okay Jessamyn, now delete the original. Heh heh
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:09 PM on June 16, 2006

i see what you are saying. that said, i am not sure that it matters to me one way or the other.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 10:17 PM on June 16, 2006

Singling out one inoccuous usage because you find it grating may say more about you than about the expression itself. Having said that, why not go after a few others while you're at it?
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:22 PM on June 16, 2006

for me the nails-on-the-chalkboard phrase is

just sayin'
posted by chococat at 10:27 PM on June 16, 2006

Ned gave bad head to Fred. So bad that Fred's head bled. That said, "I'm dead", said Fred. The end.
posted by Effigy2000 at 10:31 PM on June 16, 2006

scarabic - I've seen you make that point in other places where it applies just as poorly as it does here.

(oh yeah, and I think that Confirmation Bias is what you're looking for)

I should mention that this isn't a big deal to me or anything. I just think it's kinda funny. Sorta like how a couple years ago, when everyone was saying "basically" a lot. I knew people who would pepper nearly every sentence with at least one "basically." Thankfully, people caught on to that, and now I hear "basically" a lot less.
posted by Afroblanco at 10:35 PM on June 16, 2006

CONFIRMATION BIAS!?
posted by delmoi at 10:38 PM on June 16, 2006

you mean you read "basically" a lot less.

Still, I have no idea why you would complain about this. Why does it bother you so much that it's used so often, people often employ multi-word constructs with specific meanings as words. I don't see it as "that big of a deal"
posted by delmoi at 10:43 PM on June 16, 2006

strawman!
posted by shoepal at 10:58 PM on June 16, 2006

I'm too lazy to look it up, but I feel like afroblanco has been posting more than his fair share of mefi "pet peeve" metatalk posts recently. what the fuck?
posted by shmegegge at 11:09 PM on June 16, 2006

No.

Now get the hell off of my lawn.

Can we take the tired metaphor 'take X out behind the barn and shoot it' out behind the barn and shoot it, by the way? I am driven into spittle-flecked paroxysms of apoplectic rage each and every time I see it†.


† no, no I'm not.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:11 PM on June 16, 2006

Do you really think that a MeTa thread about a grammar pet peeve is going to have a wide effect, other than turning into the normal MeTa playground?

Here, play with my dot:

---

posted by Rhomboid at 11:25 PM on June 16, 2006

shmegegge - I've posted two. Ever. Including this one. And I posted the other one 6 months ago. Next time, look it up.
posted by Afroblanco at 11:31 PM on June 16, 2006

Child that is no dot, it is nothing less than a spot, maybe even a blot. shmegegge stop almost begging the question instead answer me this: what is a noun phrase? I have paid my 1.8 euros and impotently demand satisfaction.
posted by econous at 11:32 PM on June 16, 2006

"That said" is awesome, it basically lets you toss out the reasonable course of argument you were on before for no reason at all.

John is a great person, and everybody likes him. That said, I cannot let you marry him.

Sure it's overused. Sure it's greating. Yet, no, I shall not stop using it.

Also, when I looked through your Google links, there were lots of ones that said "that said" in the non-harmful way.

Furthermoreover, are people fucking still saying "perfect storm" and "sea change"? I mean in the world, not MeFi, which I could care less about if I like, tried hard.
posted by fleacircus at 12:05 AM on June 17, 2006

But who was the user that said it first?
posted by jjg at 12:11 AM on June 17, 2006

I'll stop saying "that said" if y'all stop saying that things are "very telling".
posted by Bugbread at 12:36 AM on June 17, 2006

"What's that, Said?", Mr T. Hat said.

That said On the other hand, I know what you mean. Once you start noticing it, it does become a bit annoying. I would love to see something along the lines of Mathowie's Guide to English Usage linked to alongside the FAQ or the wiki...
posted by greycap at 12:45 AM on June 17, 2006

Let me put it this way: in terms of this thread, vis-a-vis metalk e.g., q.e.d., i.e. "meta-wanking", so to speak, and not per se "metafilter" as it were.
posted by naxosaxur at 1:00 AM on June 17, 2006 [1 favorite]

you're right. I was either thinking of somebody else or simply getting a bunch of people mixed together in my mind. I take it back.
posted by shmegegge at 1:47 AM on June 17, 2006

However, I pity the fool who touches my jewellery.
posted by econous at 2:16 AM on June 17, 2006

It's a two word phrase that's often the most concise way of expressing what it means. Is this supposed to be a problem? What's next? "Who is"? "You know"? "Even better"? "The hell"? "Even if"?

And I mean, honestly, what are the better alternatives, and why is "that said" any worse than them? "On the other hand" is just as bad on the numbers, and it's twice as wordy. "Nevertheless" isn't as common, but does it honestly sound better to you? And if you think 68,000 uses is enough to bitch about, then don't even try to suggest "however" as an alternative.
posted by moss at 2:44 AM on June 17, 2006

As you your self say, though then again, alternatively.. do not touche my jewellery.
posted by econous at 2:56 AM on June 17, 2006

Oooh, I want to play:

I don't mean to pass judgement but there are a myriad of other more serious infractions.
posted by GooseOnTheLoose at 3:13 AM on June 17, 2006

When Eddie said he didn't like his teddy
You knew he was a no-good kid
But when he threatened your life
With a switchblade knife...
posted by Smart Dalek at 3:40 AM on June 17, 2006

978,000
Time to bn the letter 'a'. I think we all gree tht it's wy overused.
posted by atrazine at 3:57 AM on June 17, 2006

I know what tired old trope I'm most sick of.

Yes, I ended my sentence with a preposition.
posted by yhbc at 4:51 AM on June 17, 2006

Clearly, this Barbarian tongue "English" and its vicissitudes and vagaries are the very heart of the problem. Clearly, we should change the native language of Metafilter to Esperanto. Clearly, problem solved.

Konsentite! Havu bonan tagon!
posted by milquetoast at 5:15 AM on June 17, 2006

Yes, I ended my sentence with a preposition.

One more sentence preposition ended with, or even clause by, and I swear I'll go a killing frenzy into.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:17 AM on June 17, 2006

Better than 'methinks.' Of course, every word ever typed/spoken is better than 'methinks.'
posted by dorisfromregopark at 5:20 AM on June 17, 2006 [1 favorite]

I, for one, welcome this chance to out the overuse of "I for one." That said, if we banned it, I'd probably miss it, methinks.
posted by Effigy2000 at 5:31 AM on June 17, 2006

It's a two word phrase that's often the most concise way of expressing what it means. Is this supposed to be a problem? What's next? "Who is"? "You know"? "Even better"? "The hell"? "Even if"?

Ex actly.

Jesus. Is Matt giving secret prizes for pointless MeTa posts and nobody told me?
posted by languagehat at 5:55 AM on June 17, 2006

I woke up a little late yesterday, purity is usually a constant, well mostly. Last night tho it was up around the 98% mark. No way to tell other than shooting it, or some sort of chem test kit. I smiled again, and then again for you. Fucked as I was this morning, I still made it to the office fully dressed, on time a good start to the day. I was feeling really chilled, smooth.. blue on black. I always feel good after a heavy puking session. Anyhoo, everyone at work was distracted, by the world crap being beamed live to all the AV monitors. I just read metatalk and let my mind drift. Oh I also farted a little, it felt a bit wet, so I duck walked down to the men's toilets on 3, and took a good, long look. Surprised? Yeah, nothing there. Funny how ones anus is so sensitive to these things, I guess that's it's job.
posted by econous at 6:18 AM on June 17, 2006

Cela dit ...
posted by Wolof at 7:02 AM on June 17, 2006

Creeping up in the distance is "not so much." It's a trickle, but it will become a torrent if it is not stopped. And what about "you suck?"
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:05 AM on June 17, 2006

moss - you make a good point. I guess the only reason I notice the frequency of "that said" on MeFi is that it seems a whole lot more popular here then anywhere else. For instance, take a look at Slashdot, a site that easily gets 7 to 8 times the amount of comments that MeFi gets, but has less than twice the amount of "that saids."

Add to that the fact that I almost never hear people say "that said" in everyday conversation. I think that certain aspects of language are viral, like the aforementioned "basically," and it seems like MeFi has a case of the "that saids."
posted by Afroblanco at 8:23 AM on June 17, 2006

troll
posted by cortex at 8:35 AM on June 17, 2006

Also, aside from "confirmation bias", readers of Language Log (and others?) will recognize this in the guise of The Frequency Illusion.
posted by cortex at 8:36 AM on June 17, 2006

I'd be willing to bet that slashdot also has far fewer correct uses of adverbs on the site. are adverbs also viral? I just think we're a more discourse and language-happy bunch, here, where slashdot and many other places are either, like slashdot, the hangouts for the tech crowd or simply filled with teenagers.

for instance, I'd never, in my LIFE, seen the names of the logical fallacies thrown around so much in any forum for discussion I'd ever been in, not even my high school debate class, as they are here. is that because we've been infected by the meme and should stop mentioning them? or is it really just that, again, we tend to be comprised of adult people with an above average education regarding discourse and debate and language?
posted by shmegegge at 9:15 AM on June 17, 2006

I'm tired of "signal to noise ratio" (even though it's only been used 205 times on MeFi), but I'm too lazy and apathetic to do anything about it.
posted by Devils Slide at 9:33 AM on June 17, 2006

+ 22 instances of "S/N ratio".
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:10 AM on June 17, 2006

Signal vs. Noise

Signal currently has a 3.5% lead over Noise.
posted by Bugbread at 10:23 AM on June 17, 2006

WTF, Afroblanco?
posted by dgaicun at 10:25 AM on June 17, 2006

Alternatively.
posted by dgaicun at 10:27 AM on June 17, 2006

It's just that ...
posted by mischief at 10:54 AM on June 17, 2006

Signal currently has a 3.5% lead over Noise.

Hilarious!
posted by sonofsamiam at 11:22 AM on June 17, 2006

Shut up already, Alvy.


What the hell, man?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:43 AM on June 17, 2006

It's my fault. Really. I'm serious.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:16 PM on June 17, 2006

Sorry Alvy. I was way fucking out of it when I wrote that. For some reason I thought it was you.

That said, if you've posted anything lately that deserved that sort of response then consider it a preemptive STFU. Otherwise, my bad.
posted by Ryvar at 12:56 PM on June 17, 2006

Preemptive? WTF, Ryvar?

Christ. I'm going back to bed. The hell with all of you.
posted by Ryvar at 12:57 PM on June 17, 2006

THAT WAS A PRE-EMPTIVE STFU. I HAVE A WHOLE BAG OF STFU HERE WITH YOUR NAME ON IT.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:07 PM on June 17, 2006

I will if you will, if you will.
posted by everichon at 1:12 PM on June 17, 2006

Sadly, my first thought wasn't "What the hell did I do?" but rather "Man, could he be a little more specific?"

/Tucks Ryvar in, goes to hell.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:35 PM on June 17, 2006

On the gripping hand, we might want to get rid of abbreviations like STFU.
posted by Captaintripps at 3:04 PM on June 17, 2006

O RLY? Y?
posted by dgaicun at 3:15 PM on June 17, 2006

Actually, 437,000
posted by semmi at 3:24 PM on June 17, 2006

Signal currently has a 3.5% lead over Noise.

Ha! We're barely viable.
posted by Devils Slide at 4:19 PM on June 17, 2006

I read this entire thread and I still don't know what the fuck is going on...
posted by Cyrano at 7:22 PM on June 17, 2006

"Methinks"? I think not.



Sometimes I do, just not right now.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:22 PM on June 17, 2006

Clearly, we should change the native language of Metafilter to Esperanto.

You know, "like love, Esperanto is the international language."

Just sayin'.

P.S. Just sayin'.
posted by evilcolonel at 7:29 PM on June 17, 2006

I'll stop saying "that said" if y'all stop saying that things are "very telling".

Your comment speaks volumes.
posted by Lola_G at 10:50 PM on June 17, 2006

definately (v. definitely)
gubmint / gummint
lib'rul / librul
surely this...
posted by obloquy at 12:49 AM on June 18, 2006

meh.
posted by Afroblanco at 1:50 AM on June 18, 2006

i honestly can't believe you started a meta talk thread over "that said". You understand that threads like this are the meat of mefi jokes right?
posted by Tryptophan-5ht at 2:03 AM on June 18, 2006

scarabic - I've seen you make that point in other places where it applies just as poorly as it does here.

I didn't see any reason for your complaint other than the fact that the usage has occurred some thousands of times. It seemed probably the most direct example of a simple "I notice a pattern - it must die - that is all" type of complaint. If it's not a complaint, just pointing out something kinda funny, then, well, I guess we're whistlin' dixie here.
posted by scarabic at 2:13 AM on June 18, 2006

scarabic - I've seen you make that very point, which you have summed up as, "I notice a pattern - it must die - that is all" many times. I do not think that the pattern that you are pointing out is a valid pattern. In other words, I disagree with your initial observation, and thus disagree with all of the situations that you have applied it to.
posted by Afroblanco at 8:53 AM on June 18, 2006

oh yeah, and Tryptophan - Yes, I had a feeling that this would become a joke thread. That's fine, though. It allowed me the chance to point out that "that said" is over-used on MeFi, and not really any place else that I'm aware of. So who knows, maybe people will use it less now. It's not something that bothers me a whole lot and makes me lose sleep at night. To be honest, it seems like other people here have been taking the whole thing a lot more seriously then I do.
posted by Afroblanco at 8:59 AM on June 18, 2006

Yes, I had a feeling that this would become a joke thread. That's fine, though. It allowed me the chance to point out that "that said" is over-used on MeFi,

No that's not fine. It's not what MeTa is for. Besides that, you never even bothered to make a case against the phrase besides your OCD irritation that it exists. Meanwhile moss made a pretty convincing case in its favor; if anything the logical net effect of this thread will be an increase in usage.

to point out that "that said" is over-used on MeFi, and not really any place else that I'm aware of

You didn't point that out at all, you just linked to MeFi.

MeFi: 64,800

Slashdot: 97,700

Daily Kos: 49,500

Political Animal: 41,600

Fark: 7

Other educated discussion sites have usage frequencies that are indistinguishable from MeFi.
posted by dgaicun at 9:45 AM on June 18, 2006

You didn't point that out at all, you just linked to MeFi.

actually, I did do a search on slashdot. The fact is, slashdot regularly gets 7-8 times the amount of comments that MeFi gets, and has less then twice the amount of "that saids." Your comparison should take total comment volume into account.

Meanwhile moss made a pretty convincing case in its favor

From what I can tell, he simply defended its usage. Not the same thing as making a convincing case in its favor.

Besides that, you never even bothered to make a case against the phrase

I just think that it's over-used. People should be more imaginitive about their phrasing.

No that's not fine. It's not what MeTa is for

Well, sorry for ruining your day or whatever.
posted by Afroblanco at 10:19 AM on June 18, 2006

ahem
posted by auntbunny at 10:29 AM on June 18, 2006

It's a phrase that transitions from one thought to another while acknowledging that the second may superficially appear to contradict the first in some non-crucial way. It's a rhetorical tactic to forstall objections on that grounds, by indicating that the speaker is aware of the apparent contradiction. It's an acceptable, valid usage with a purpose, and it's absurd to single it out as if your personal idiosyncratic reaction to it applied to anyone but you.

Having unburdened my growling guts of that, I will not disagree that it does no harm to vary the the phrasing occasionally.
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:33 AM on June 18, 2006

occam's razor, uncanny valley, moleskine
posted by the cuban at 10:42 AM on June 18, 2006

It's obvious that this thread has become a quasi-pileon, so to that degree I regret posting this. I don't think that I've done irreperable harm to MeTa. This will most likely be my last "language police" thread. You all can rest easy tonight.

(Yes, this does mean that I'm no longer going to respond to criticisms of me or this thread. I'm going out to the beach to get some sun. Toodles!)
posted by Afroblanco at 10:50 AM on June 18, 2006

i got fifty bucks what says Afroblanco won't be able to stay out of this thread as promised. especially if we add about 50 more comments.

any takers?
posted by Hat Maui at 1:45 PM on June 18, 2006

The fact is, slashdot regularly gets 7-8 times the amount of comments that MeFi gets, and has less then twice the amount of "that saids."

Unadjusted for moderation Slashdot has far more noise, and a huge preponderance of one-liners of the sort not likely to include compound statements, so the correlation is probably fairly good. A better comparison would be if you only compared comments of similar length.
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:12 PM on June 18, 2006

From what I can tell, he simply defended its usage. Not the same thing as making a convincing case in its favor.

in this case, it actually is.
posted by shmegegge at 2:27 PM on June 18, 2006

I once suggested to the editor of a trade journal that his publication could use better copy editing. To prove my point, I photocopied an edition of the magazine, went through it with a red pen, and sent it to him with a polite little note.

His equally polite but clearly insulted reply included something I'll never forget: "I am impressed [...] with the amount of free time you have."

Can't imagine what made me think of that just now.

That said, I did read or at least skim this entire thread.
posted by diddlegnome at 3:55 PM on June 18, 2006

Clearly, this Barbarian tongue "English" and its vicissitudes and vagaries are the very heart of the problem. Clearly, we should change the native language of Metafilter to Esperanto. Clearly, problem solved.

Jes, povus esti simple. Tiu dirita, estas ne.
posted by graymouser at 5:51 PM on June 18, 2006

After we get the "that said" stuff straightened out, can we go after "hopefully"?
posted by TedW at 9:57 AM on June 19, 2006

And I've noticed that a lot of folks have been ending sentences with prepositions.
posted by cortex at 12:01 PM on June 19, 2006

Those will wait until after we deal with people who use "then" instead of "than".

has less then twice the amount of "that saids."
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:22 PM on June 19, 2006

It is not incorrect to use a preposition to end a sentence with. That is a rule with very weak standing either historically or currently, and there are many "exceptions" that hinge on the multifunctionality of "prepositional" particles in Germanic languages. That it was a problem around here is not something I was aware of. But even if it is, it's something I can put up with. Let the vernacular be your guide.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:45 PM on June 19, 2006

Those will wait until after we deal with people who use "then" instead of "than".

has less then twice the amount of "that saids."


Ha lol. Never mind the misuse of "amount of" for a set of discrete entities (iterations of "that said,"). There may be a number of such instances, but perhaps they amount to nothing I can get upset about.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:47 PM on June 19, 2006

christ fourcheesemac I was kidding
posted by cortex at 9:35 PM on June 19, 2006

Also, if you're going to pointedly end your sentences with prepositions to underscore your point, try to construct less awkward examples. It isn't hard to.
posted by cortex at 9:36 PM on June 19, 2006

Agent Bork: Chief! Ya know that guy whose camper they were whackin' off in?

Agent Fleming: Bork, you're a federal agent! You represent the United States Government! Never end a sentence with a preposition.

Agent Bork: Oh, uh... Ya know that guy in whose camper they... I... I mean, that guy off in whose camper they were whacking?
posted by dgaicun at 12:39 AM on June 20, 2006

Ending a sentence with a preposition? That is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put!
posted by TedW at 10:41 AM on June 20, 2006