This AskMe is Meta, Ergo...

October 24, 2006 8:28 AM

If anything belongs in metatalk, a post flaming Metafilter users' spelling and grammar sure does. How much more "about Metafilter" can you get than "I am baffled as to why this is so frequent on a site such as AskMeFi"?
posted by mendel to etiquette/policy at 8:28 AM (80 comments total)

The really funny thing was, the poster answered his or her own question by making mistakes in his or her post. This is why I, as an editor, do not criticize other people's mistakes. I know it's all too easy to make them. No bafflement involved.
posted by orange swan at 8:32 AM on October 24, 2006

In addition to being "about Metafilter," it probably also violates the "don't post a rant thinly disguised as a question" rule.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:34 AM on October 24, 2006

Given the underlying snottiness of the question, the thread actually turned out to be more civil than it could have.

This is why I, as an editor, do not criticize other people's mistakes.

Same here. I decided a long time ago that unless I'm getting paid to check for mistakes, I let them sail on by.
posted by scody at 8:35 AM on October 24, 2006

didn't the question belong to metatalk in the first place? why is it still up?
posted by matteo at 8:37 AM on October 24, 2006

unless I'm getting paid to check for mistakes

do you take PayPal?
posted by matteo at 8:38 AM on October 24, 2006

Oh, me too, scody! Except for the silent amusement at the genuinely funny mistakes. I love it when people say they are "having friends and family over for supper". And I cherish a CD of Handel's Messiah that a friend burned for me. One of the songs is listed as "His Yolk is Easy".
posted by orange swan at 8:40 AM on October 24, 2006

the op's just whining about something pretty stupid. surprised the question is still up.
posted by lester's sock puppet at 8:42 AM on October 24, 2006

Why didn't it get deleted immediately? The question never belonged in the green in the first place.
posted by bshort at 8:56 AM on October 24, 2006

It's been done to death in MeTa. It usually turns into a bunch of self-important assholes on either side flaming each other over a minor issue. Like so much of MeTa.
posted by raedyn at 9:02 AM on October 24, 2006

"I love it when people say they are 'having friends and family over for supper'."

Of course, because it should be "having friends and family over for dinner."
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:19 AM on October 24, 2006

I love it when people say they are "having friends and family over for supper".

I give up. Where's the error?
posted by gubo at 9:20 AM on October 24, 2006

Not really an error, gubo, but it can be interpreted to mean that you are not friends with your family.
I liked the sign on the corner store in Kitsilano that said, "No dogs or pets."
Just in case a stray, literate canine wanted some gum, I suppose.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 9:25 AM on October 24, 2006

Friends are best served baked with a side of chips, family, now family is best stewed or steamed.
posted by edgeways at 9:27 AM on October 24, 2006

Dangling modifier.
posted by matthewr at 9:29 AM on October 24, 2006

Every day I see people whining about basic spelling/grammar errors on MeFi. I don't understand this at all. Seriously. It's an online forum. It's global. It's public. The cost of entry is the same as a Happy Meal. What manner of total moron would you have to be to not understand why there are regular spelling/grammar errors?

There is literally a higher percentage chance that you will be killed by a falling moose than there is that spelling/grammar errors will stop being a regular part of MeFi. This fact and the reasons why are plain and obvious.

Nevermind asking why the post is still up. I want to know why the response to this poster isn't to point and laugh.
posted by Ragma at 9:31 AM on October 24, 2006 [1 favorite]

WGP, I think there is a distinction between friends and family. I took the humor to be in the interpretation edgeways cites - you're actually dining on friends and family, not with them.
posted by Nathanial Hörnblowér at 9:32 AM on October 24, 2006

Same here. I decided a long time ago that unless I'm getting paid to check for mistakes, I let them sail on by.

Word. I spend enough time cleaning up after professional writer's i'm not going to do nothing for free no more. Stupid dutch-bags.
posted by Mister_A at 9:34 AM on October 24, 2006

Good point, deleted.
posted by mathowie at 9:34 AM on October 24, 2006

NH: That would be the case if you had "friends and family for dinner." The "over" makes it a stretch to interpret that way.
"I'm having my family over easy for breakfast", maybe.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 9:36 AM on October 24, 2006

For your enjoyment and consideration, a letter addressed to: John Sharp, Friends' School, Park Lane, Croydon, 7th Mar. 1844

'Twas a fine winters day - their breakfast was done
And the boys were disposed to enjoy some good fone;
Sam Sprightly observed, "'tis but just ½ past eight
"and there's more time for play than when breakfast is leight,
"and so I'll agree that so cold is the morning,
"We'll keep ourselves warm at a game of stag worning;
"I'm Stag" - with his hand in his waistcoat he's off,
And his playmates are dodging him round the pump-troff.
Sam's active but still their alertness is such
That 'twas not very soon ere one he could tuch.
The captive's afrailed with jokes, buffets laughter
By a host of blithe boys quickly follows aughter.
But joined hand in hand their forces are double;
Nor for jokes or for buffeting care they a bouble.
All's activity now, for high is the sport,
Reinforcements arrive from the shed & shed-cort.
More are caught & their places they straightway assign
At the middle or end of the lengthening lign.
To break it some push with both shoulder and thigh,
But so firm is the hold that vainly they trigh;
Oh! 'tis broken at last, now scamper the whole
To escape their pursuers & get to the gole.
All are caught now but one of the juvenile hosts
And he, a proud hero, vain-gloriously bosts,
But hark! the clock's striking & then by the rules
They must quickly collect for their several schules.
We'll leave them awhile at their books & their sums
And join them again when the afternoon cums.

Now dinner is over - "Sam Sprightly," says he,
"Let us form a good party for cricket at thre;"
Says Joseph, "I wish you'd begin it at two,
"For after our dinner I've nothing to dwo."
But Thomas would rather 'twere fixed an hour later
Because he's on duty as dinning room water;
And so they agreed to meet punctual at four,
On the green just in front of No. 1 dour,
& they thought they should muster not less than a scour.
Sam goes on recruit, "Will thou join us my hearty?"
"Yes" says Richard. "I'll gladly make one of the pearty."
"And William must join, he's a capital bowler,"
"He'll have finished his work by that time as bed-rowler."
"Come Joseph, thou'll join" - but Joseph languidly said,
"I can't for I've got such a pain in my haid,
"I think I should find myself better in baid."
"There's Alfred", says Sam, "I know he will choose."
He said he was sorry the pleasure to loose,
But he was appointed to black the boy's shoose.
They next ask a boy of more sober demeanour,
But he too's in office - they call him knife-cleanour,
"Well Jim thou'll go with us." "No, asking thy pardon,
"I'd rather by far go and work in the gardon,
"For there we get pay - perhaps a nice root,
"Or what I like better - a handful of froot.
"So you'll not enlist me - I'm not a rectoot."
"There's Charles." but alas! poor unfortunate wight,
He's confined to the lodge, - he regretted it quight.
Tho' Frank's a long lesson of grammar to learn,
He'll set it aside not to miss such a tearn;
Some join in the party - but some are too busy.
One does not like cricket, it makes him so dusy.
But now there's enough - so says Sam, "Now my boys,
"Just listen to me - don't make such a noys;
"The High field's the place - & I do not despair
"If the teachers we ask, they will let us play thair,
"So while I get the bats & the ball I propose,
"That Alfred or Richard or somebody gose,
"And presents our request - making this a condition,
"We'll all be good boys if they grant us permition.
"Here's the ball & the bats - just look what a beauty.
"Well Taff, what reply from the master on deauty?"
"Oh! granted" - "That's right - that is capital news;
"Indeed I knew well they would never refews."
So now they're at play - and I think you've enough
Of such spelling, such rhyming, such whimsical stough,
And therefore lest you gained from my verse should inveigh,
I'll bid you farewell, leaving them to their pleigh.
posted by Otis at 9:36 AM on October 24, 2006

"...can be interpreted to mean that you are not friends with your family."

That's exactly what I mean.
posted by Quietgal at 9:37 AM on October 24, 2006

Thanks. I'm having chicken over for supper tonight, you're all invited.
posted by gubo at 9:38 AM on October 24, 2006

".....but it can be interpreted to mean that you are not friends with your family."

No. It couldn't.

No one with a functional grasp of the English language could interpret it that way without first abandoning any effort to draw meaning from the statement. And if the statement has no meaning, there is no interpretation.
posted by Ragma at 9:41 AM on October 24, 2006 [2 favorites]

In a similar vein to the "friends and family for dinner" mistake...

When my parents were young (1967 or '68), my father took a job in Atlanta; they had to relocate from New York. It's a long drive from New York, and they had a baby boy (my brother) with them, so they decided to look for a room as the night wore on. I think they were in South Carolina, but it might have been Northern Georgia.

Anyway, they finally found a motel with a ligt-up billboard/marquee out front - here is what it said:

Motel No-tell (not really the name)
Vacancy
TV
No Color

They both kinda shrugged as they got out of the car. "I don't care if it's a black and white TV," my mom said as they walked to the desk...
posted by Mister_A at 9:42 AM on October 24, 2006

I'm having chicken over for supper tonight, you're all invited.

NAMBLA roast?
posted by jack_mo at 9:45 AM on October 24, 2006

Dangling modifier.
posted by matthewr

I'll dangle your modifier.
posted by ninjew at 9:49 AM on October 24, 2006

One invites people to dinner, unless one is Hannibal the Cannibal.
posted by orange swan at 9:50 AM on October 24, 2006

I'm just mad that the thread was closed just as I was posting my brilliantly witty and incisive comment. Now my carefully crafted sentences are lost forever. Tyranny!
posted by vraxoin at 9:54 AM on October 24, 2006

Or American. "I'm having friends to dinner" sounds overly precious to me, and I don't think I've ever heard it used here.
posted by occhiblu at 9:54 AM on October 24, 2006

But as gubo pointed out, one does not have chicken over for supper.
posted by cribcage at 9:58 AM on October 24, 2006

...can be interpreted to mean that you are not friends with your family."

By whom? I've never met an English speaker who wouldn't be able to parse that sentence. Regardless, friends and family are two different categories. They might overlap, but they're still two different things.

Words are dumb.
posted by vraxoin at 10:00 AM on October 24, 2006

I would also like to know what's wrong with having my "having friends and family over for supper."
posted by ODiV at 10:01 AM on October 24, 2006

er... you know what I meant.
posted by ODiV at 10:02 AM on October 24, 2006

oDiV:
It should read:

"having friends and family over to be killed and eaten." (emphasis mine)
posted by Mister_A at 10:04 AM on October 24, 2006 [1 favorite]

Too bad I missed that 1 minute edit window.
posted by ODiV at 10:05 AM on October 24, 2006

Can we do punctuation, too? And initial caps? That would be fun.
posted by fixedgear at 10:22 AM on October 24, 2006

It's an online forum. It's global. It's public. The cost of entry is the same as a Happy Meal. What manner of total moron would you have to be to not understand why there are regular spelling/grammar errors?

There is literally a higher percentage chance that you will be killed by a falling moose than there is that spelling/grammar errors will stop being a regular part of MeFi.

So, your argument is that spelling and grammar errors will always, to some extent, be a part of MeFi; and therefore it is pointless to even so much as try to reduce their incidence? Do you suppose that those of us who are bothered by spelling errors are equally as bothered by one error in a thread as we are by a thousand?

In fairness, you have at least provided an example to support your assertion that any moron can sign up for MeFi.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:23 AM on October 24, 2006

"This is why I, as an editor, do not criticize other people's mistakes.

Same here. I decided a long time ago that unless I'm getting paid to check for mistakes, I let them sail on by."

I hear that! I'll also note that though I'm an editor now, I don't even catch many of the things that the AP guide lists as mistakes, much to my chagrin. I'm too busy trying to parse incredibly convoluted flights of semi-logic and axing all of the weird ass qualifiers that my writers seem to turn in ("it's probably... most of the time... often..." all within one sentence).
posted by klangklangston at 10:23 AM on October 24, 2006

When I've made the effort to give an answer, I resent it when the thread is deleted.

Do not give the kine that tread the grain a laxative without very good cause, Matt.
posted by jamjam at 10:26 AM on October 24, 2006

You're a minor issue, raedyn!
/Gets shovy

And yeah, that was sheer crap. I laughed, I pointed, I flagged.
Good riddance!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:30 AM on October 24, 2006

No one with a functional grasp of the English language could interpret it that way without first abandoning any effort to draw meaning from the statement. And if the statement has no meaning, there is no interpretation.
posted by Ragma at 9:41 AM PST on October 24

By whom? I've never met an English speaker who wouldn't be able to parse that sentence. Regardless, friends and family are two different categories. They might overlap, but they're still two different things...
posted by vraxoin at 10:00 AM PST on October 24

Yes, Ragma and vraxoin, I understand what you're saying, but disagree. I have a functional grasp of the English language, and I understand what is intended, but I can also laugh at the little stretch. I know I'm not obeying the parsing rules when I chuckle, but that just makes it funnier. By the way, I didn't make the joke; I just attempted to interpret orange swan's comment for gubo.

My theory is that these little grammar spats, like arguments about politics or fashion, are vestigial tribal bonding rituals. We are like cave people, gathering around the fire to argue about pointed sticks vs. clubs as the best hunting method. We ally ourselves with those with whom we have the best chance of staying alive. The vraxoins have precision on their side, but they're no fun; the delmois have numbers, lots of clubs, and make up in enthusiasm what they lack in precision.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 10:30 AM on October 24, 2006

I brought a nuke. FOR dinner. Your clan can suck it.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:33 AM on October 24, 2006

Would that be a nuclear or nukular?
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 10:38 AM on October 24, 2006

Microwave. I'm making soup. For your clan. Why? What did you think I meant?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:41 AM on October 24, 2006

...and therefore it is pointless to even so much as try to reduce their incidence?"

No. He didn't say that. I think you're coming to your own conclusion there.

God knows I've run across my share of persnickety little mopes here, who have nothing better to do than point out my spelling errors (and thank god for them, I'm a better person!) yet I still make a few.

P.S. MetaFilter. I'm free for dinner
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 10:46 AM on October 24, 2006

MetaFilter: persnickety little mopes
posted by raedyn at 10:57 AM on October 24, 2006

So, has the img tag been restored yet?
posted by brain_drain at 11:02 AM on October 24, 2006

Reducing the incidence of spelling errors is missing the point, regardless—treat the cause, not the symptom.
posted by cortex at 11:05 AM on October 24, 2006

Along the lines of Mr_A's story above, my parents went to my high school's Parents Night, and met with my language teacher. They introduced themselves, and my teacher said "Oh good! I like meeting my French parents first." To which my Dad replied, "We're not French."

True story.
posted by genefinder at 12:00 PM on October 24, 2006

So, your argument is that spelling and grammar errors will always, to some extent, be a part of MeFi; and therefore it is pointless to even so much as try to reduce their incidence?

Maybe the poster you refer to didn't say this, but I will. People don't come to MeFi for editorial or proofreading instruction, and it's rude to impose it on them here. The only errors that should be addressed here are those that occlude meaning, in which case the only request it is appropriate to make is for clarification.

The problem with the spelling/grammar rants as a bonding ritual is that the people who issue them with gusto tend to be the ones least conversant with actual editorial standards. Those of us who fix other people's writing for a living can see as if in a spotlight all the hypercorrections, arbitrary style choices, and misunderstandings about language that characterize the claims of the most enthusiastic amateur fault finders.
posted by caitlinb at 12:34 PM on October 24, 2006 [2 favorites]

Just so, caitlinb. And we also know from bitter experience that it's impossible to be perfect even when one has considerable resources at one's disposal.

Honestly, I find the level of discourse at MeFi to be quite high for people just posting on the fly in spare moments. There are some incredible writers on here. Their work leaves me simultaneously humbled and all but ready to hump my screen (nothing turns me on like fine prose). Even the worst writers on here are generally at least readable. So when anyone carries on about the inevitable mistakes — pfft. Go and read some other, more typical community weblogs, and then come back here ready to savour the richly embroidered and endless if imperfect tapestry that is Metafilter.
posted by orange swan at 12:58 PM on October 24, 2006

Is the username Humpworthy Prose taken?
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 1:32 PM on October 24, 2006

weapons-grade pandemonium: "Is the username Humpworthy Prose taken?"

Shit, I'd spring for the fiver but my prose has never been humpworthy.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 1:59 PM on October 24, 2006

People are friends with their families?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 2:14 PM on October 24, 2006

The problem with the spelling/grammar rants as a bonding ritual is that the people who issue them with gusto tend to be the ones least conversant with actual editorial standards.

Bonding rituals have little to do with right and wrong, caitlynb. They have everything to do with inclusion and exclusion. Remember middle school? Nyahh! I misspelled your name just to spite you.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 2:19 PM on October 24, 2006

Is the username Humpworthy Prose taken?

No, but I think Dickens might have used it in a novel.
posted by orange swan at 2:42 PM on October 24, 2006

Now I'll never be content unless my comments receive the "orange swan hump of approval."
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:55 PM on October 24, 2006

Should there be a new flagging option? "Humped by orange swan"?
posted by cgc373 at 3:06 PM on October 24, 2006

"orange swan–humpable"?
posted by cgc373 at 3:07 PM on October 24, 2006

No one with a functional grasp of the English language could interpret it that way without first abandoning any effort to draw meaning from the statement.

Well, people who like that sort of thing generally have little interest in drawing meaning from statements.

The problem with the spelling/grammar rants as a bonding ritual is that the people who issue them with gusto tend to be the ones least conversant with actual editorial standards. Those of us who fix other people's writing for a living can see as if in a spotlight all the hypercorrections, arbitrary style choices, and misunderstandings about language that characterize the claims of the most enthusiastic amateur fault finders.

Very, very true.

"orange swan–humpable"?

An en dash used properly is a thing of beauty.
*high-fives cgc373*
posted by languagehat at 3:18 PM on October 24, 2006

That's not very fair. For every pair of words, there exists a minimum 75% chance that Dickens used it in a novel. We should still get to use it.
posted by blacklite at 3:18 PM on October 24, 2006

Now I'll never be content unless my comments receive the "orange swan hump of approval."

I must warn you that I am not a promiscuous humper, despite what you might have heard from erudite members of this site.
posted by orange swan at 3:40 PM on October 24, 2006

Oh - so now I'm not erudite? Tease!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:49 PM on October 24, 2006

I'm a 40 % Proofreader.
posted by soundofsuburbia at 5:03 PM on October 24, 2006

im in ur community weblog humpin ur erudition
posted by I Am Not a Lobster at 5:15 PM on October 24, 2006 [1 favorite]

is this a haiku?
looks like I botched the meter
someone complain to metatalk!
posted by Kwine at 5:26 PM on October 24, 2006

MetaTalk.
posted by languagehat at 5:34 PM on October 24, 2006

Would that be a nuclear or nukular?

It would be spelled "nuclear" and pronounced "nukular."
posted by caddis at 6:50 PM on October 24, 2006

Why does MetaChat have a fully functional spellchecker and MetaFilter does not?

*weeps one small tear
posted by caddis at 6:51 PM on October 24, 2006

Just to muddy the waters further, the meaning of "friend", if you go back far enough, did include family members and the distinction has only come up in the last couple of hundred years. Someone with an OED handy will back me up.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 7:31 PM on October 24, 2006

I demand nothing less than a YouTube video of orange swan singing,
"Of all the prose I've humped before..."
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 7:35 PM on October 24, 2006

Crap. In my frenzy to snag "Humpworthy Prose" before anyone else, I typed in the wrong user name. And gmail account.
Still: a $5 tax on impulsivity is a small compared to the premium one pays in the real world, so it's all good. To Humpable Prose!
posted by Humpable Prose at 8:43 PM on October 24, 2006

(And I think I just demonstrated why typos will never die on MetaFilter. Well done, old chap!)
posted by Humpable Prose at 8:45 PM on October 24, 2006

- Not confident in the sack?
- Looking for expert guidance?
- Want to learn from the best???

HUMPABLE PROS! YOUR SEX-U-CATION SOURCE!
posted by cortex at 9:05 PM on October 24, 2006

How apropos. I used to work as a Humpable Pro.

Note: do not wear a pimp coat to the hotel room. It sets the wrong mood.

BTW men, I dare say cortex is exactly the sort of humpworthy pro orange swan had in mind.
posted by Humpable Prose at 9:14 PM on October 24, 2006

I helped my uncle jack off a horse.
posted by oxford blue at 9:28 PM on October 24, 2006

*tardily returns languagehat's high-five*
posted by cgc373 at 10:08 PM on October 24, 2006

And I, meanwhile, have been known to work as a Pumpable Ho on occasion. But only when I was really desperate.
posted by shiu mai baby at 10:55 AM on October 25, 2006

You said you had a good time!!!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:03 AM on October 25, 2006

Not really an error, gubo, but it can be interpreted to mean that you are not friends with your family.

You're not friends with your family. You're family with your family. This isn't a statement about "mwa ha, family sucks," it's just a different sort of relationship. You might as well say that the person is a cannibal because he's having his friends for dinner, ha ha.
posted by dagnyscott at 12:09 PM on October 25, 2006