Giving too much credit to overthinking beans and plates thereof.

April 9, 2007 9:09 AM

Other then getting 90 plus favorites, why is this on the sideblog? Was it really so incredibly thoughtful and witty that it merits special attention? After all, later in the same thread, flarbuse mercilessly and elegantly deconstructed it and kind of makes it look, well, a bit dumb.
posted by psmealey to MetaFilter-Related at 9:09 AM (92 comments total)

You do realize that flarbuse's comment was running with the joke, right?
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:13 AM on April 9, 2007

Crap. Did I miss the point again?
posted by psmealey at 9:14 AM on April 9, 2007

But as a maybe useful answer, there was a recent post in the grey asking for more frequent sidebar updates. I'd guess that, given that, Jess and/or Matt has been trying to get a little bit more happy-go-lucky with throwing stuff up there. And this comment (and the SEXY SEX one, see one thread down) have both apparently been headscratchers for some folks. Pendulum swings is dangerous things.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:18 AM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]

flarbuse's comment should have been the one that was sidebarred.
posted by amro at 9:20 AM on April 9, 2007

Is April 9 the day we bitch about the sidebar?
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 9:20 AM on April 9, 2007

I think it was the first comment on Metafilter this year that made me laugh out loud and collapse in to a fit of giggles. And that was when it only had 7 favorites. It seemed to take in the entirety of all the gravity that Mefites make their comments with and poke at it with a little sharped stick. It's the stupidity of it that made it witty. I wish I could go all flarbuse in support of the comment, but really, let the comment stand for what it is, dude. Let it stand for what it is.
posted by Mister Cheese at 9:22 AM on April 9, 2007

Ok.... I got it now... Still trying to restart my sense of irony after a very long and earnest theological discussion yesterday. Yes, it's very clever the flarbuse was a playing with the criticism embedded in the snark to criticize it. But at the end of the day, overthinking a plate of beans is kind of what we do here, so solistrato's comment was more stating the obvious than it was terribly clever.
posted by psmealey at 9:28 AM on April 9, 2007

Other then getting 90 plus favorites

Um...that *is* one of the things that gets noticed for the sidebar, you know. I can't believe you posted to complain about that.
posted by mediareport at 9:28 AM on April 9, 2007

Crap. Did I miss the point again?

You seem to be overthinking it.
posted by octothorpe at 9:28 AM on April 9, 2007

What Mister Cheese said.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:29 AM on April 9, 2007

It isn't possible to overthink a plate of beas
posted by found missing at 9:29 AM on April 9, 2007

We're down the rabbit-hole here. I can't decide if psmealey is in fact also being playful. How I miss the certanties of the pre-modernist era.
posted by Abiezer at 9:30 AM on April 9, 2007 [3 favorites]

Isn't it ironic?
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 9:32 AM on April 9, 2007

'Cause it was my post and I fucking rule.
posted by tristeza at 9:32 AM on April 9, 2007

If there is one more MeTa post about the fucking sidebar then I am just going to remove the damn thing and give you people one less thing to bitch about. I don't know how I will do it, as I have no control over this website whatsoever, but I will. Try me. Just one more. I swear to God.
posted by ND¢ at 9:32 AM on April 9, 2007 [3 favorites]

Shrugfactor, I guess. I laughed at solistrato's comment mostly because it was stating the obvious.

I didn't pay religious attention to the sidebar over the years, so I can't say for sure, but from vague memory I'd venture that much of what has been sidebarred has been longer, more surprising or substantial comments and threads, and that might be part of why these two comments being featured has gotten such a spit-take treatment: people are more likely to complain about not getting (or just not much liking) a joke than they are to complain about not caring much about, say, the best methods for working the real estate market to your advantage, or that there's a podcast episode, etc.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:33 AM on April 9, 2007

Also, it was tristeza's post and she fucking rules.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:34 AM on April 9, 2007

I think that's might what has to do with it... the terrible, awkward obviousness of it. Taken in context, it was commentary on the fact that the thread was all about analyzing Alanis Morisette's cover of My Humps; Metafilter has the habit of taking the most inane sort of parody (no offense, Alanis fans) and deconstructing it. I mean, we all do it, but usually aren't aware. Plate of beans points out the obvious where we usually aren't aware of the obvious. It's like a little kick. I think I laughed so hard because it took me out of the thread commentary long enough to realize that I had been in rapt attention people's opinions on of a cover of My Humps. A sort of, "what the hell?" moment. I will concede that it isn't witty by most measures.

Of course, I just realized I'm doing exactly what the comment points out... I fell kind of icky, like I've got some meta on me.
posted by Mister Cheese at 9:35 AM on April 9, 2007

IF YOU WRITE A COMMENT THAT HAS LOTS OF CAPS IN IT YOU TOO CAN GET 90 FAVORITES!
posted by googly at 9:41 AM on April 9, 2007 [3 favorites]

Um...that *is* one of the things that gets noticed for the sidebar, you know.

Um... really? Isn't that was this is for?

Ok, fair enough that others got a kick out of it. Just thought it was a bit odd next to all the really cool shit that gets featured on the side blog (celebrity/expert posts to threads, important milestones/events, etc.) ordinarily.
posted by psmealey at 9:41 AM on April 9, 2007

Um... really? Isn't that was this is for?

Which is pretty much what Matt said the other day. Circle of life, etc.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:44 AM on April 9, 2007

Given a choice between very rare "milestone" additions to the sidebar and more frequent updates that include pointers to much-favorited comments in particularly active threads, I'll take the second one, thanks.
posted by mediareport at 9:44 AM on April 9, 2007

IF YOU WRITE A COMMENT THAT HAS LOTS OF CAPS IN IT YOU TOO CAN GET 90 FAVORITES!

NUH-UH!
posted by quonsar at 9:47 AM on April 9, 2007 [3 favorites]

*eats overthought plate of beans*
*passes a lot of very learned gas*
posted by jonmc at 9:48 AM on April 9, 2007

Okay, wait, does this thread mean I should vote here to sidebar the dog-fucking derail?
posted by cgc373 at 9:49 AM on April 9, 2007

I'M IN YR PLATE OVERTHINKING YR BEANS.
posted by Tommy Gnosis at 9:50 AM on April 9, 2007 [3 favorites]

It's on the sidebar because

1. There was a request to add more to the sidebar.
2. It's funny.
3. This has been overthinky weekend here on MetaFilter.
4. Navel gazing is sometimes enjoyable.
5. There is no 5.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:09 AM on April 9, 2007

5. There is no 5.

Now you're just fucking with us. There's clearly two fives.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:12 AM on April 9, 2007

gimme five, cortex. you've obviously got it to spare.
posted by jonmc at 10:15 AM on April 9, 2007

Hi, I'm on Metafilter and I could overthink "HI I'M ON METAFILTER AND I COULD OVERTHINK A PLATE OF BEANS."
posted by Bookhouse at 10:15 AM on April 9, 2007 [6 favorites]

I don't WANT to be exposed to a plate of beans.
posted by konolia at 10:23 AM on April 9, 2007 [2 favorites]

IT'S ON THE SIDEBAR BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKED IT. KEEP INVESTIGATING, ENCYCLOPEDIA BROWN!
posted by shmegegge at 10:23 AM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]

There's clearly two fives.

I see you have sleuthing skills, but can you find x?
posted by scottreynen at 10:24 AM on April 9, 2007

IT'S ON THE SIDEBAR BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKED IT. KEEP INVESTIGATING, ENCYCLOPEDIA BROWN!

HI I'M ON METAFILTER AND I COULD OVERTHINK MUGS BEANIE.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:32 AM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]

Although I have no proof, I can't help be feel that comments getting that many favorites are evidence that someone is somehow gaming the favoriting system.
posted by Dave Faris at 10:35 AM on April 9, 2007

Sheep taste gamey, if you know what I am saying.
posted by ND¢ at 10:39 AM on April 9, 2007 [2 favorites]

IT'S ON THE SIDEBAR BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKED IT. KEEP INVESTIGATING, ENCYCLOPEDIA BROWN!

Thanks, Sally!
posted by inigo2 at 10:46 AM on April 9, 2007

I think you're plate-of-beansing it, Dave. And so I guess I will too:

The comment came at a high-cycle moment in a very hopping and accessible thread, and was brief and clear. The initial rush of favorites matches well with the active-commentary life of the thread; you see faves drop off fairly quickly as of the 4th, only surging again on the 8th when the visibility spiked (sidebar, metatalk thread).

There's probably some element of feedback—favorites leading to favorites—both from some degree of consensus behavior and from visibility via the Popular Favorites functions, but I doubt there's anything that could be described as gaming going on.

Of course, it could be that if Matt ran an IP search on every favoriter he would suddenly out a great big pile of crypto-sockpuppetry, but, uh, I'm not putting any money on that outcome.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:48 AM on April 9, 2007

oh hi
posted by iconomy at 10:51 AM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]

Oh, I certainly don't imagine that there's some poor soul out there with 90+ socks. I guess I figured that it was the collective work of some outside community drawing attention to that particular post, and getting people to favorite it.

Never underestimate the power of the retarded hive mind, I guess.
posted by Dave Faris at 11:00 AM on April 9, 2007

I think you're plate-of-beansing it

And thus another MeFi in-joke is born. Whose job is it to update this?
posted by psmealey at 11:01 AM on April 9, 2007

Mmmmm beans. Makes my forehead salivate.
posted by yeti at 11:05 AM on April 9, 2007

I guess I figured that it was the collective work of some outside community drawing attention to that particular post, and getting people to favorite it.

I actually did a quick search on Metachat, to see if there was some cross-post action, but the Alanis thread over there (posted on the 4th) didn't mention the mefi post, nor could I find any reference to the beans comment. No sign of a significant crosspost from Monkeyfilter either.

Certainly, someone from some other site could get a lot of eyes on something, but with the exception of MeCha and MoFi I don't know who could actually get a lot of favorites on something: they'd need to corral not just readers but registered users.

I'd be impressed for more than one reason to see a rash of new accounts created expressly to game the favorite count of a given post or comment, for that matter. But, alas, not the case here.

It's an interesting question, but in this case I can't see it being anything but serendipity.

Never underestimate the power of the retarded hive mind, I guess.

Or, you know, that. Now eat your beans, young man; you are having dinner with your family, and I don't care who is going to the arcade.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:09 AM on April 9, 2007

Publicly-displayed "Favorites" were a useful addition to the site that didn't create any sort of additional negative issues. Or not.
posted by dios at 11:14 AM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]

Beans, beans, good for your heart...
posted by djgh at 11:19 AM on April 9, 2007

The video was *everywhere* that day. I have 100+ blogs on my feed, and I lost count of how many posted it. I don't think there was some mass conspiracy; I think people thought it was really funny and wanted to share.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:22 AM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]

I didn't want to post this to the music section because I'm just being silly, but here's a song for you guys.

Forgive me, I'm sick and there's nothing else to do.
posted by buriednexttoyou at 11:24 AM on April 9, 2007 [2 favorites]

I can't help be feel that comments getting that many favorites are evidence that someone is somehow gaming the favoriting system.

i don't think it's being 'gamed'. whenever you have a 'top' list, items seem to explode in popularity whenever they pass whatever the requirement is for being listed, and begin to benefit from the additional (deserved or not) exposure. the public always bets the favorite.

it's the same reason that you now have to suffer through fall-out boy videos.

when the principal taste-makers are under-informed about the content which they popularize, the crap rises to the top: in with fart jokes, out with satire; up with limericks, down with poetry! HAIKU, PUNS AND KNOCK KNOCK JOKES LITTERING THE STREETS -- DEMOCRATIZATION BREEDS MEDIOCRITY. LONG LIVE ACADEMIA! LONG LIVE THE CRITIC! LONG LIVE META-FASCISM! HEIL CRANKYPANTS!

no, i don't really know where I'm going with this either
posted by fishfucker at 11:27 AM on April 9, 2007

dios writes "Publicly-displayed 'Favorites' were a useful addition to the site that didn't create any sort of additional negative issues. Or not."

Well, they certainly didn't create much. A Meta or two asking "why is this sidebarred"...and that's it? For MetaFilter, that's called "a new feature that has gone over exceptionally well".
posted by Bugbread at 11:28 AM on April 9, 2007

This has been overthinky weekend here on MetaFilter.

Did you guys hear about Joshua Bell playing his $3.5 million violin at the entrance of the Washington DC metro system recently and very few passers-by stopped to listen to his music?
posted by ericb at 11:28 AM on April 9, 2007

Dave Faris, I think it's just a matter that some people browse Recent Favorites as a heads up on what has been considered "better than usual", and then if they like it, they favorite it, leading to a snowball effect. Not really a "people are sheep" thing, because I doubt they're favoriting it because it's popular, they're favoriting it because they like it; they're seeing it because it's popular. And not gaming, either, because it's not intentional.
posted by Bugbread at 11:31 AM on April 9, 2007

buriednexttoyou, please do stick that on Music. The end made me bust out in my cubicle, and people are looking at me now, and so I think you owe me.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:34 AM on April 9, 2007

Well, they certainly didn't create much. A Meta or two asking "why is this sidebarred"...and that's it? For MetaFilter, that's called "a new feature that has gone over exceptionally well".
posted by bugbread at 1:28 PM on April 9

Fair enough. Your point is valid. I'm not saying they are disastrous or The End of Metafilter. I don't think that at all. But the recent callouts based on them made me think what the benefit of the system as compared to whatever small issues they create.

I guess I just don't see the upside for them. They have created a few non-issues. But they are kind of a vanity thing. So it encourages behavior that seeks favorites. And I'd wholly speculate a not-insignificant portion of favorites comments are just plain snark (if not pure noise). Would the snark occur otherwise? Perhaps. But there still seems to be some encouragement or incentive to posting such comments now.

I don't use favorites because I personally think there is no real value in reading the site that way. That's a wholly solipsistic viewpoint, I'll concede. But I just don't see the useability benefit of it. One could have a favoriting system that was not public, whereby you could have the "most commonly favorited comments or posts" but without the in-line notation of count. Thus you would have the functionality feature of a "favorites" page. Moreover, I don't see what, if any, value there is in seeing who favorited a comment.

I'm not terribly sold on this as being an important critique, and I haven't really contemplated and thought this out. I was just throwing it out there. Just some thoughts on it.
posted by dios at 11:39 AM on April 9, 2007

First 9622, now beans. My exceedingly complicated relationship with Metafilter remains intact.
posted by solistrato at 11:42 AM on April 9, 2007

(I should add, I can certainly be talked out of that viewpoint as it is not a strongly held one.)
posted by dios at 11:42 AM on April 9, 2007

Ok, Cortex, you're the boss.
posted by buriednexttoyou at 11:50 AM on April 9, 2007

I sort of see where you're coming from, dios.

But I think you just need to take it with a grain of salt. It means just what it means, a lot of people clicked the little "+." a record that sells 10 million isn't necessarily "better" than one that sold 10,000, but more people chose to buy it.

I think you're afraid of it going the way of "best of craigslist," which is full of spam, plagiarisms, and lowest-common-denominator "humor." And it's pretty obvious that people post things with the express intent of getting flagged "best." But I don't think anyone posts things on metafilter with the express goal of getting favorites.



I admit to being happy when i occasionally get a favorite, but one or two is enough- it just makes me feel like someone read and liked what I had to say and I'm not just throwing words into the aether.
posted by drjimmy11 at 12:30 PM on April 9, 2007

I don't get a whole lot of use out of the in-thread visibile count on favorites either, though my gut says there's been little if any impact on site behavior since that system went live, so I don't see it as much of a negative.

If Matt were to just replace the count with some symbol that intuitively denotes "this has been favorited one or more times; click on me to find out what those are!", it wouldn't break my heart. Might be an interesting experiment, at least. (Ideally with a note at the top of the list-of-favorites clickthrough mentioning said experiment, to reduce the incidence of "what's up with fave counts?" threads over here.)
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:35 PM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]

IM ON YR SIDEBAR CAUZIN YR CONTROV3RSY
posted by moonbird at 12:39 PM on April 9, 2007

flarbuse mercilessly and elegantly deconstructed it and kind of makes it look, well, a bit dumb.

while we're here, can someone explain this to me? Does "it" refer to the thread or the Alanis video? Becauswe I'm not sure how the comment has anything at all to do with the video, let alone "mercilessly and elegantly deconstruct[ing] it ." He seems to be making fun of people's tendency to overanalyze, as near as I can tell.

That's tangentially related to the video, I suppose, if people are saying it's good because it makes some "statement" or something. But his comment makes no reference to whether the video or song is, you know, good. So I don't get how he made the video itself look "dumb."
posted by drjimmy11 at 12:41 PM on April 9, 2007

oh i see he was deconstructing the "plate of beans" comment. duh.

carry on.
posted by drjimmy11 at 12:44 PM on April 9, 2007

(also, this thread is like irony folded in on itself, making itself a sandwich and snuggling in bed watching old tapes of Charles in Charge)
posted by solistrato at 12:44 PM on April 9, 2007 [2 favorites]

Perhaps the original comment was referring to a plate made of beans?
posted by washburn at 12:47 PM on April 9, 2007

washburn, have you been reading llog as well?
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:49 PM on April 9, 2007

so the most recent controversies involve a 3 1/2 year old comic strip and a plate of beans

hoo boy ...
posted by pyramid termite at 12:50 PM on April 9, 2007

If Matt were to just replace the count with some symbol that intuitively denotes "this has been favorited one or more times; click on me to find out what those are!", it wouldn't break my heart. Might be an interesting experiment, at least. (Ideally with a note at the top of the list-of-favorites clickthrough mentioning said experiment, to reduce the incidence of "what's up with fave counts?" threads over here.)

D00d. Speaking of overthinking plates of beans... can't we just let the feature be imperfect, and save mathowie time for new stuff or fixin' what's actually broken? We've already established that people use it in different ways for different things - why assume there's going to be a one-size-fits-all solution? Personally, I use the "Most Favorited" page, and high favorites counts as an indication that there's something to stop scrolling past and have a look at. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not - but it almost always keeps me informed about what Mefites are talking about. Which I enjoy. It's like having a community constantly filtering all that stuff out there I don't have time to sort through myslef. At a meta level. A kind-sorta "Meta Filter," to coin a phrase.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:50 PM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'd like to take umbrage with flarbuse's point that any extra thought for a plate of beans is a waste. It's not like you just dump them out! There's seasoning, cook speed and varieties to consider! Are you cooking black beans or red? Are they baked or refried? Did they come from a can, or do they need soaking first? Are you cooking them with bacon or chilies?

Do you even know? Do you even know which pans you're using? Well, do ya? Or did you not want to over think it?
posted by EatTheWeek at 12:54 PM on April 9, 2007

And by "myslef" and "kind-sorta," I of course meant "my slaves" and "kink-sorted."
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:54 PM on April 9, 2007

washburn, have you been reading llog as well?

No, actually; yet I think it's safe to say that the information there can only serve to further problematize the bean-plate conundrum.
posted by washburn at 12:58 PM on April 9, 2007

that was when it only had 7 favorites

So, you used to favorite it, but then it went all mainstream?
posted by Firas at 1:02 PM on April 9, 2007 [3 favorites]

I've always thought that if there's one thing Metafilter needs its to be even more self-referential and injokey.
posted by Rhomboid at 1:53 PM on April 9, 2007

I don't get a whole lot of use out of the in-thread visibile count on favorites either, though my gut says there's been little if any impact on site behavior since that system went live, so I don't see it as much of a negative.

Obviously your gut is unaware of my ever increasingly urgent checking of my somewhat paltry favourites total, and the angst I feel whenever the number goes down. It may not be prompting much visible behavioural change, but unbeknownst to you, there are thousands of us out here living and dying on the edge of that little number on our user pages.

Where that's positive or negative, who knows. I'm just grateful, that unlike consumating, it's not possible for a negative number of people to like me.
posted by jacquilynne at 2:01 PM on April 9, 2007

"HI I'M ON METAFILTER AND I COULD OVERTHINK A PLATE OF BEANS."

So could I! Except when the damn beans run too fast.
posted by davy at 3:35 PM on April 9, 2007

"It's not possible for a negative number of people to like me."

It is for me. But then I'm special!
posted by davy at 3:37 PM on April 9, 2007

It isn't possible to overthink a plate of beas
posted by found missing at 11:29 AM on April 9

[Gob] BEEEEEAS?! [Gob]
posted by ninjew at 3:43 PM on April 9, 2007

I'm no good at being noble, but it doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't overthink a plate of beans in this crazy world. Someday you'll understand that. Now, now...

Here's looking at you, kid.
posted by mmoncur at 4:40 PM on April 9, 2007

Metafilter: In case of beans, overthink.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:20 PM on April 9, 2007 [1 favorite]

The admins are taking the piss out of those who suggested adding the SEXY SEX comment. Wow.
posted by Eideteker at 5:51 PM on April 9, 2007

ON SOVIET METAFILTER, BEANS OVERTHINK YOU!
posted by the_bone at 5:57 PM on April 9, 2007

I'M IN YR WEBSITE, OVERTHINKING YR PLATE OF BEANS!
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:01 PM on April 9, 2007

D'oh!
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:02 PM on April 9, 2007

I'm glad you wrote this call-out and not me, though I was sorely tempted, because I knew there'd be a bunch of people with lame senses of humor that would come to defend the genius of fart jokes.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 8:32 PM on April 9, 2007

It's already been elegantly overthunk by flarbuse, but I was just (over)thinking about why I thought the plate of beans comment was laugh out loud hilarious, and for me it's because it's the classic equivalent of some doofus stumbling into a room full of experts who are trying to dismantle a bomb and shouting "HEY EVERYBODY, WHAT'S GOING ON!?! WHAT'S THIS BUTTON FOR!" Of course, much funnier than that. And this happens on metafilter all the time. Some asshat walks into a heated discussion 50 comments deep and says something like "Hey, I didn't read anything that anybody wrote, but here's the solution...you're an idiot!" Except in this case, the doofus (or more likely a real expert, posing as a doofus) walked into the chatroom and perfectly distilled ANY AND EVERY Ask/MeFi post down to a single blaringly obvious statement. And naturally, we all bow down to his profound truth and favorite him a million times over. Which is funny in itself. And awesome.
posted by iamkimiam at 8:39 PM on April 9, 2007

It isn't possible to overthink a plate of beas
posted by found missing at 9:29 AM on April 9 [+]
[!]

Wrong. It's totally possible to overthink a plate of beans.

Now out-thinking that plate of beans, that's a whole 'nother plate of beans . . .
posted by po at 10:52 PM on April 9, 2007

I prefer to overthink a plate o' shrimp.
posted by flabdablet at 12:16 AM on April 10, 2007

Fucking side bar this:

Then is not than. Than is not then. Then is NOT than. Than IS not then.
posted by strawberryviagra at 3:32 AM on April 10, 2007

How about this for a new feature: an Overthinking a Plate of Beans comment of the day?
posted by psmealey at 6:05 AM on April 10, 2007

I was at the grocery store, and the cashier didn't recognize the type of beans I was buying...don't they teach kids the difference between great northern and fava these days?
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:16 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]

I think the cool thing about the BEANS comment, really, it that it reads like Brak wrote it.
posted by JHarris at 11:21 AM on April 10, 2007

I tried overthinking a plate of bees once, by accident. It did not end well.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:13 PM on April 10, 2007

Who got da butt? Brak got da butt!
posted by evilcolonel at 1:54 PM on April 11, 2007

I like microwaved rice with my plate of Ranch Style Brand Beans. They're Appetite Pleasin'! Real Western Flavor! Beans and rice! Yummy!
posted by ZachsMind at 6:38 AM on April 12, 2007