Submissive

July 24, 2007 5:23 PM

You know, as the guy who has trouble pointing out that you just cut in line in front of him, I gotta say wtf davy? Is it that hard to imagine that there are people who actually are insufficiently assertive—problematically so—and that this may cause trouble with partners who don't feel they're 'manly' enough? The world doesn't view everyone the same way so it's a bit too much to ask that everyone refuse to project anything besides hesitant soppiness.
posted by Firas to etiquette/policy at 5:23 PM (80 comments total)

Oh, give me a break.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:26 PM on July 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

The problem with AskMe is that you can't respond to sneering twittery if the guy shoves in a half-hearted anecdotal sentiment below it. So stop being a twit plz.
posted by Firas at 5:27 PM on July 24, 2007

davy was making a point that salvia expanded on perfectly one comment later:

Here's the problem with your question -- taking on "an air of authority" as a way of fulfilling someone else's request still sounds like doormat territory to me.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:28 PM on July 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

this is a joke, right?
posted by terrapin at 5:29 PM on July 24, 2007

It is not. Tell me again what part of So, in part, you want "an air of authority" to suck up to a "Submissive" who might someday become your girlfriend? Tell me, when you do anything together who pays? And how old are you (and she)? is warranted here? What an jackassed thing to say.
posted by Firas at 5:31 PM on July 24, 2007

This is why it's easier to be a woman. Flash your boobs and them boys will do anything you say.
posted by liquorice at 5:35 PM on July 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Oh, jeez, you guys... I'm just about to go back to my internetless home. Can't you save this for when I can enjoy it?

(Davy's often an abrasive jerkass, and was needlessly abrasive here, but you're kinda over-reacting instead of just being like, "Man, Davy's being all socially retarded again," and picturing him in a wheelchair wearing viking armor.)
posted by klangklangston at 5:36 PM on July 24, 2007 [3 favorites]

this is a joke, right?

I think it's more like interpretive dance.

... Tell me, when you do anything together who pays? And how old are you (and she)? is warranted here? What an jackassed thing to say.

I didn't read it that way. I'll admit that I think that davy could have been a bit clearer about the point that he was trying to make, but I read the last questions as an honest attempt to solicit more information. Because the dynamic of who is paying and the relative ages do have quite a bit of bearing in a question like this.
posted by quin at 5:40 PM on July 24, 2007

what klangklangston said (I can't believe I just said that).

davy was being abrasive, but still managed to give a bit of advice.

bad callout.
posted by terrapin at 5:41 PM on July 24, 2007

and picturing him in a wheelchair wearing viking armor.

Is that some kind of shot at me? Are you watching me klang? The wheelchair is because I'm lazy, and the viking armor protects me from pirates. And ghosts.

The kilt is just because it feels good, and the red pumps are to make me feel pretty.

You got a fucking problem with that?
posted by quin at 5:43 PM on July 24, 2007 [7 favorites]

Davy's e-mail is in his profile. I think you should have contacted him directly if you felt he was being a jerk. Calling atttention to someone's jerkiness in a public form is just another form of jerkiness, to my mind.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but what is anyone here supposed to do about it? Agree with you and move on? That's what your real-life friends are for. Do you want Davy banned or something?
posted by chudmonkey at 5:43 PM on July 24, 2007

Quin, this is embarrassing. Are you going to change your outfit, or should I?
posted by chudmonkey at 5:44 PM on July 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

What's jackassed about the "... who might someday become your girlfriend" part?

It's relevant as far as the relationshipfilter aspect goes. Raising the point now could head off the need for a "Hope me Hivemind! I've been putting on a fake personality for my girlfriend, and I just can't stand doing it anymore!!" question six months from now.
posted by CKmtl at 5:47 PM on July 24, 2007

I guess I'm just irritated at low jabs in askme responses in general. Eg. "You darling. That is precisely the sort of wide-eyed innocence that will serve you well should you wish to pursue a career as a catamite." Like, huh? Clearly not all of us have the whoring experience some others have.

I don't mean to start getting pissed on everyone else's behalf but it still sucks. You're correct chudmonkey in that I don't actually expect anything to change here. Er. Ok. Mea culpa, I got a bit too free with the post button.
posted by Firas at 5:52 PM on July 24, 2007

People are getting a little too good at the sarcastic bitchy answers that have just enough "helpfulness" in them to keep them from getting deleted, I'd agree. Deserving of its own callout, I dunnow, but it's worth noting that it's sort of a crappy thing to do in AskMe.
posted by jessamyn at 6:01 PM on July 24, 2007

I can sympathize with davy on this. I've just posted my own response, and I feel like people who have confidence easily come off brusquely when explaining their tactics to those who hem and haw or do whatever it is that keeps them from being listened to. There's some validity to encouraging a direct, indifferent attitude as a path to confidence.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:07 PM on July 24, 2007

Also, this callout sucks.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:07 PM on July 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

People are getting a little too good at the sarcastic bitchy answers that have just enough "helpfulness" in them to keep them from getting deleted, I'd agree. Deserving of its own callout, I dunnow, but it's worth noting that it's sort of a crappy thing to do in AskMe.

It is? Next you'll say we can't ask hypothetical questions by preceding them with "I'm writing in novel in which...".
posted by timeistight at 6:08 PM on July 24, 2007

Next you'll say we can't ask hypothetical questions by preceding them with "I'm writing in novel in which...".

Entirely possible.

xo,

the stasi
posted by jessamyn at 6:13 PM on July 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

I understand where you are coming from Firas. Some people are natural born twats and practically cream their jeans at the prospect of taking someone down a notch no matter how innocuous. There are plenty of flaming examples of that type of bullshit in AskMe and Meta.

That said, I can't agree with you on this one. I don't know Davy but the answer he gave seemed cogent and spot on. It didn't seem as bad as you're making it out to be. FWIW.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 6:14 PM on July 24, 2007

jessamyn, you're a bit of a saint to be putting up with random shit like that. I laughed my ass off when I read it, but only because it was such a ballsy and stupid thing to say.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 6:21 PM on July 24, 2007

xo,

the stasi

Hilarious, and sad. I echo SeizeTheDay—you've gotta be a saint.
posted by carsonb at 6:24 PM on July 24, 2007

Kevin, he intimated that:

• The questioner and his prospective girlfriend were BDSM fetishists, including which roles they'd occupy
• One of them was prostituting themselves out to the other
• One of them was underage

It's a general sliming of depravity wrapped in protofeminist outrage and it's difficult to miss.

Well.
I guess you could read it as asking who pays for dinner and what the age differential is.
posted by Firas at 6:27 PM on July 24, 2007

Maybe I should have put it like Salvia did, as ThePinkSuperhero pointed out. For what it's worth, I didn't mean to come off as all that abrasive. (Y'all can commiserate with Jessamyn about my "sense of humor" too.)

And as quin said, "the dynamic of who is paying and the relative ages do have quite a bit of bearing in a question like this." I'll try to explain it later if anybody cares, but I'll bet somebody else can do at least as well before I have long-term use of this now-shared computer.

(And my mommy says I look *handsome* in my longhorn helmet! And what's so wrong with a career as a catamite anyway?)
posted by davy at 6:29 PM on July 24, 2007

People going for the snarkjab in an otherwise reasonable answer just sucks. I don't know if davy meant to sound like a jerk—some folks are saying they don't read it that way, though I certainly did, so this may be one of those cases of hopelessly ambiguous tone-reading—but it wouldn't have been hard to write substantially the same comment without that particularly snarky edge to it.

It'd be nice if people would either resist the urge to slip in snark or take the extra time to compose out that sort of ambiguity, whichever is applicable, more consistently.
posted by cortex at 6:32 PM on July 24, 2007

Whoa, Firas, now you're going off the deep end. No sane person would read what davy said as what you suggested. Step away from the beans.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:32 PM on July 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

(And on non-preview, yeah, sounds like a tone thing. Hi, davy!)
posted by cortex at 6:33 PM on July 24, 2007

Oh goodness, Firas, that was just meant as gentle kidding.
The questioner had suggested himself that he would consider becoming a hooker, so I was reminding him that boy hookers frequently do other boys. I certainly wouldn't have suggested becoming a prostitute if he hadn't made it part of the question.

I apologize if my noting that men might be a better customer base than women for prostitution was an unhelpful answer or hurt anyone's feelings.
posted by lemuria at 6:35 PM on July 24, 2007

The way I read it, aprivateperson doesn't need any helping solving the problem of their relationship. They've got that one solved: aprivateperson needs an "air of authority", or to be more assertive. Not knowing how to go about it, but desiring to do so, aprivateperson has Asked MetaFilter how to become more assertive. Any answer addressing the (unfortunately included) problem of the relationship is missing the real question entirely.
posted by carsonb at 6:37 PM on July 24, 2007

Now I feel kinda bad! I wasn't trying to be mean to hooker guy, I was just being silly. Maybe I need to use some emoticons. :) :) :)
posted by lemuria at 6:39 PM on July 24, 2007

I'll change chudmonkey, I was biting on your style anyhow. Besides, I've been thinking about rocking the Barbarian on crutches in a summer frock look. I think it will show off my legs.
posted by quin at 6:43 PM on July 24, 2007

There's an insistence on tone in these kind of answers which sometimes prevents the poster from getting an honest and useful response, different people at different times respond to varying approaches, it's not helpful to formulate a one size fits all response for every single questioner.
I would also contend that aiming for canonisation via posting on the site would not be the best of goals.
Instead of posting here for an actual answer there's an amount of people advertising their own personal dramas on askme - knowing they will recieve warm and fuzzy answers which actually prevent them from taking any action.
If the initial intention of posting here is merely to draw such a response from the users of the site, then the community would have a most unhealthy dynamic - we would have a site full of dishonest questions and answers, of no use to anyone.
I would suggest that allowing differently toned responses in these types of thread would keep their numbers down.
posted by sgt.serenity at 6:44 PM on July 24, 2007

Instead of posting here for an actual answer there's an amount of people advertising their own personal dramas on askme - knowing they will recieve warm and fuzzy answers which actually prevent them from taking any action.

That is sick as fuck, and I don't doubt it. But it's not the case this time. aprivateperson didn't include any relationship details in the question. He was prompted to provide specifics by people who didn't understand that he needed help with how to do something and not whether to do it.
posted by carsonb at 6:51 PM on July 24, 2007

jessamyn, you're a bit of a saint to be putting up with random shit like that.

The worst part of the stasi's way of running MeFi is all the forced ass-kissing and show-trial confessions. I'd agree with our libertarian determinist Proudhonian friend, but I'm sure my comment would just be deleted. So let me say instead:

I was wrong to have thoughts that contradicted the more advanced thinking of the moderators. I was acting as an enemy of MetaFilter. I revealed my lack of concern for the welfare of the blue, gray and green. I see now the error of my ways, and I hope only that my banning serves as a beacon to all members that the beautiful moderators always know what's best for us.
posted by OmieWise at 7:04 PM on July 24, 2007 [5 favorites]

I miss the days when I didn't know MetaTalk existed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:13 PM on July 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

Administasi?
posted by djgh at 7:15 PM on July 24, 2007

I read that as your banning serves as a bacon to all ... members ... mmmm, bacon ...
posted by Roger Dodger at 7:20 PM on July 24, 2007

You stupid kids are driving me crazy. I need a stiff drink.
posted by mds35 at 7:48 PM on July 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the cabalist party? JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION SENATOR!
posted by blue_beetle at 8:34 PM on July 24, 2007

I guess you could read it as asking who pays for dinner and what the age differential is.

Well.
That's what the second & third sentences say, anyways.
posted by jmd82 at 8:37 PM on July 24, 2007

Kabbalists have the best orgies parties.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:53 PM on July 24, 2007

The wheelchair is because I'm lazy, and the viking armor protects me from pirates. And ghosts.

Is it literal viking armor, or are you just saying that it excels in its protectory duties?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:56 PM on July 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

It's fine lemuria, it's not the suggestion of becoming a catamite that set me off but the diminutive cooing tone behind it. Anyway I obviously need to get less defensive about online jabs, let's pretend this thread never happened :)
posted by Firas at 9:07 PM on July 24, 2007

There are some users *ahem* who have shown themselves to be sufficiently abrasive, asshattish, jerkified, or all of the above, in enough other posts that it can be hard to read their gently-ribbing comments as anything but abrasive.

I have no dog in this particular fight, but what happens for me in these circumstances is that I have a DeejMonkey script that automatically kicks in and prevents me from overreacting to such posts. It's the DeejMonkey "eh" filter, wherein upon reading the post, I say "eh" and move on. Same as many of you are doing to this comment.
posted by The Deej at 9:10 PM on July 24, 2007

This is why it's easier to be a woman. Flash your boobs and them boys will do anything you say.

Hey - you know the old Yemeni proverb!

("...now go out and make with that work thing or whatever the hell you do. We're going to sit around & eat sweets all day & watch Turkish soap operas")
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:15 PM on July 24, 2007

I have no dog in this particular fight

Aha, so you do admit to dogfighting then, the deej? How many innocent and defenceless animals have you sent to a painful death for your amusement?
posted by Meatbomb at 9:38 PM on July 24, 2007

There are some users *ahem* who have shown themselves to be sufficiently abrasive, asshattish, jerkified, or all of the above, in enough other posts that it can be hard to read their gently-ribbing comments as anything but abrasive.

I think he's talking about me...

Jerk.
posted by quin at 9:45 PM on July 24, 2007

Aha, so you do admit to dogfighting then, the deej?

I admit NOTHING! And my close personal friend, Portland Trail Blazers forward Qyntel Woods will vouch for my character.

I think he's talking about me...

Jerk.
posted by quin

Quin, has it come to that? Is our relationship so stale and predictable that you know what I am thinking without my even saying it. *Sigh*

I've spoken to an attorney. It's for your good too.
posted by The Deej at 9:55 PM on July 24, 2007

[sigh]

You can have the kids.

But I'm keeping the dog.
posted by quin at 10:22 PM on July 24, 2007

Refers The Deej to Michael Vick's recent infamy.
posted by Cranberry at 10:49 PM on July 24, 2007

Everybody's just a little bit too damn sensitive lately. I blame global warming fat people George Bush litigation culture your parents.

Suck it up, folks. Life doesn't have airbags, and people can be just plain mean sometimes.

And (although I don't think davy was) stop taking dumps in AskMe threads, or I'll come 'round to your house and piss in your goldfish bowl. Just because I can.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:06 PM on July 24, 2007

[NOT MODERATORIST]
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:06 PM on July 24, 2007

I miss the days when I didn't know MetaTalk existed.

This would be the perfect time to say: Yeah, but I bet you still don't know that MetaFilter Music exists!

But then I checked your userpage and noted that you have made a comment to MeFiMusic, Brandon. One comment. So come back and see us again over there real soon, y'hear?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 12:47 AM on July 25, 2007

Too late, stavros - I already did. Also, you know that fake rock at the side of the bowl? Don't try and pick it up.
posted by dg at 1:17 AM on July 25, 2007

Hey - you know the old Yemeni proverb!

("...now go out and make with that work thing or whatever the hell you do. We're going to sit around & eat sweets all day & watch Turkish soap operas")

I thought it was "thank heavens for the trophy husband"?
posted by liquorice at 2:23 AM on July 25, 2007

Refers The Deej to Michael Vick's recent infamy.
posted by Cranberry

Yeah, Michael Vick was too obvious, so I used Qyntel Woods instead.

Quin, you can have the dog, but I still want half of the winnings.
posted by The Deej at 5:35 AM on July 25, 2007

Life doesn't have airbags, and people can be just plain mean sometimes.

Well, the portion of life that happens in a modern consumer vehicle does. And if people are mean they might not get a ride to the mall next time, dammit.
posted by cortex at 6:41 AM on July 25, 2007 [1 favorite]

Any time there is a thread that has a potential to be annoying, Davy is always right there, being annoying. And the thing is, he just won't shut up. Refuses to. You think, "Ok, great, more Davy comments. Maybe he'll go away." But nope, he never does. He just stays in there going back-and-forth, making the thread annoying.

I can't really say that I value his presence. But what are we going to do, ban people for being annoying?
posted by Afroblanco at 7:22 AM on July 25, 2007

No, Afro, but we can spank them.
posted by Firas at 7:25 AM on July 25, 2007

But what are we going to do, ban people for being annoying?
posted by Afroblanco

Nooooo!!!!!! This is the only place I am still tolerated!!!!
posted by The Deej at 7:29 AM on July 25, 2007

That stasi comment is fantastic. I consider my day made.
posted by Kwine at 7:55 AM on July 25, 2007

"There are some users *ahem* who have shown themselves to be sufficiently abrasive, asshattish, jerkified, or all of the above, in enough other posts that it can be hard to read their gently-ribbing comments as anything but abrasive."

Yeah, I worry about that sometimes. But I just can't stop...
posted by klangklangston at 9:19 AM on July 25, 2007

First you have to acknowledge the problem. Then there's AA.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:10 AM on July 25, 2007

All I meant was that a guy who worries about projecting "an air of authority" is probably young and inexperienced, but doesn't have to be so naive as to wrenchingly contort himself over a gal who might never care for him as a human being instead of a plaything and meal ticket. Whether either of them was under legal age or wore a price tag was so beside the point that I hadn't considered it, as I think such advice applies if you're 14 or 44. (Though now that I think of it paying an experienced professional escort to teach one to project an "air of authority" might not be a horrible idea.)

As for the BDSM thing, when a woman tells me something like "I prefer a man who projects 'an air of authority'" I understand that to be at least roughly synonymous with "I prefer the Submissive role" or at least the "Traditionally Feminine" one. This would not have been so controversial, or so indicative of a "BDSM lifstyle," before the "Feminist Revolution" of the 1970s, which was during my teen years: my own parents tried to teach me that the Man is masterful and confident (and orders and pays for dinner) and a Woman is pleasant and acquiescent (and takes a nibble of everything and knows how to say "no" to "russian hands and roman fingers"), etc. etc., as their parents had taught them. But I wasn't having any of it: I recall a girl once wanted to treat me to dinner and a movie for my birthday but insisted on giving me the money so I could "be the Man" and pay (I actually argued with her that it was a stupid and sexist idea that demeaned us both as human beings). Note that what people now think of as "Role Playing" 50 years ago was seen as "the way 'natural' men and women behave"; when I tried to explain to my grandma that people can renegotiate their "expected" gender roles (and set up rules and a "lifestyle" around it) and that I prefered a woman who could exchange roles with me depending on the situation she looked at me like I was a fruitcake from Mars: women were Submissive and Feminine and that's just the way God intended it. (She and my mother did not actually fit that description as far as I could tell, relying as I had to on their out-of- bedroom behavior, but I wasn't going there with them.) If it isn't clearer from this what I meant to say in AskMe then I might well be incapable of explaining my position on this coherently (either), so I'll just STFU about it now.

But it was not my intention to insult anybody or to shit in the AskMe thread. I hope the rest of my answer was clearer and less objectionable-sounding, at least.

(I'm pleased to see Salvia's comment rated a "best answer"; I'm just a poor man's quonsar in a private school Fark.)
posted by davy at 11:17 AM on July 25, 2007 [1 favorite]

(Maybe I should have waited till I was "legal age" to read books like The Female Eunuch.)
posted by davy at 11:25 AM on July 25, 2007

As for BDSM per se, I don't like it: "Unlike the trailer park proles, We wear leather vests and snort coke while We beat our wives."
posted by davy at 11:39 AM on July 25, 2007

I'd pick a major fight over that last comment davy were this mefi handle not tied to my real identity :)
posted by Firas at 11:49 AM on July 25, 2007

Also, there's not really much point in picking fights with davy when he's acting like this.
posted by dersins at 12:05 PM on July 25, 2007

If we don't pick fights with him here, we'll only fighting him in the Green.

That's right, I made MeTa a clumsy Iraq metaphor, based on clumsy thinking by the Bush administration.
posted by klangklangston at 12:41 PM on July 25, 2007

This is why it's easier to be a woman. Flash your boobs and them boys will do anything you say.

All you'll get from me -- a gay man -- is a string of Mardi Gras beads. And that's not even a "given."
posted by ericb at 1:11 PM on July 25, 2007

Acting like what, dershins? Taking firas' accusations seriously enough to try to explain what he misunderstood?

Maybe I should just go back to saying "Bite me!"
posted by davy at 1:29 PM on July 25, 2007

For what it's worth, I think davy's responses have been clear and gracious. I'd totally misread that line of his.
posted by Firas at 1:37 PM on July 25, 2007

Really? What about equating BDSM with spousal abuse was clear and gracious?
posted by dersins at 3:18 PM on July 25, 2007

For that bit I went with the wheelchair & viking armor thing. Nobody's throwing out their handcuffs coz 'davy on metafilter' disapproves.
posted by Firas at 3:33 PM on July 25, 2007

Excellent point.
posted by dersins at 3:36 PM on July 25, 2007

"safe and consensual" is not equal to wife beating. Just sayin'.

And I'll take your handcuffs if you are throwing them out.
posted by misha at 4:42 PM on July 25, 2007

"Flash your boobs and them boys will do anything you say"

I thought it was "thank heavens for the trophy husband"?

that's the beauty of it. both are equally cromulent translations, due to the punning nature of the proverb in the original Arabic, mashallah!
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:51 PM on July 25, 2007

"Nobody's throwing out their handcuffs coz 'davy on metafilter' disapproves."

WAAAAAHHHH! I'll hold my breath till I turn BLUE!

(Cheers, Firas. No harm done.)
posted by davy at 8:42 PM on July 25, 2007

Okay, can this thread be closed now? Or should I mention again that if I had a decent video card I could study Youtube more instead of commenting on Metafilter so much and that I have a Paypal account linked to the email address listed in my Profile?

(OOPS!)
posted by davy at 9:37 PM on July 25, 2007

Sit, Ubu.
posted by cortex at 9:39 PM on July 25, 2007