This is where you can talk about "Are Catholics Christian?"

November 6, 2007 11:59 AM

Let's move the "Are Catholics Christian?" derail/debate in this AskMeta thread to a more appropriate place: this Metatalk thread.

The discussion is not really appropriate for the AskMeta thread, since the OP clearly already has an opinion on the subject, and I doubt any of us will change his mind.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero to MetaFilter-related at 11:59 AM (186 comments total)

They're the One True Church!

They're Papist fish-mongers!
posted by klangklangston at 12:04 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

Are they Christian?! Are the filthy Papists even human?
/screaming great left-footer.
posted by Abiezer at 12:05 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

Can I add them to my contact list?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:08 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

And why is it that I was raised Catholic and am now an atheist, yet, when someone describes themself as a 'Recovering Catholic,' I think to myself 'What a dink'?
posted by box at 12:09 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

So not only do I have to listen to the girl behind me at work make wedding arrangements all day, I get to read about this crap in the green AND grey. It's enough to make a stressed out, underloved gay dude move to a high tower and dispatch flocks of winged monkeys to terrorize wedding parties.
posted by hermitosis at 12:09 PM on November 6, 2007 [7 favorites]

Can we settle this issue in the next two hours please? I am meeting some friends for dinner and one of them is a Catholic and I want to know whether I should respect her beliefs or kill her because she is a subhuman apostate. TIA.
posted by ND¢ at 12:09 PM on November 6, 2007 [4 favorites]

::calls Hermitosis' work to block Metafilter::

There, problem solved!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:10 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's enough to make a stressed out, underloved gay dude move to a high tower and dispatch flocks of winged monkeys to terrorize wedding parties.

You need to become a wedding planner.
posted by Stynxno at 12:10 PM on November 6, 2007 [3 favorites]

Anyone's favorite ethnic group can be made acceptable to me with a few years of ethnic cleansing.
posted by Coventry at 12:10 PM on November 6, 2007

This MetaTalk was predestined.
posted by A Long and Troublesome Lameness at 12:14 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

I want to know whether I should respect her beliefs or kill her because she is a subhuman apostate.

It doesn't matter as long as you feel guilty about whichever you decide.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:15 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

Yesterday, there was a debate in the office about how it's OK to say "He's a catholic," but not "He's a Jew."

I'd never heard "He's a Catholic" before, and thought that only West Virginian mine workers would use that construction.

So… These Jews are still Christians, right?
posted by klangklangston at 12:17 PM on November 6, 2007

"It doesn't matter as long as you feel guilty about whichever you decide."

Boy, that's a Catholic answer.
posted by klangklangston at 12:17 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

"The Catholick"

I HOLD as faith What ENGLAND'S CHURCH alows
What ROME'S church saith My conscience disavows
Where the KING'S head That CHURCH can have no shame
The flocks misled That holds the POPE supreame.
Where the ALTARS drest There's service scarce divine
The peoples blest With table, bread, and wine.
He's but an asse Who the COMMUNION flies
Who shuns the MASSE Is CATHOLICK and wise.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 12:18 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

Are lesbians the women's wing of the gay movement, or the gay wing of the women's movement? Discuss!
posted by fandango_matt at 12:20 PM on November 6, 2007 [5 favorites]

Can we discuss lesbian catholic school girls instead?
posted by yhbc at 12:21 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

Mr Blackitt: Look at them, bloody Catholics. Filling the bloody world up with bloody people they can't afford to bloody feed.

Mrs Blackitt: What are we dear?

Mr Blackitt: Protestant, and fiercely proud of it...

Mrs Blackitt: Why do they have so many children...?

Mr Blackitt: Because every time they have sexual intercourse they have to have a baby.

Mrs Blackitt: But it's the same with us, Harry.

Mr Blackitt: What d'you mean...?

Mrs Blackitt: Well I mean we've got two children and we've had sexual intercourse twice.

Mr Blackitt: That's not the point... We *could* have it any time we wanted.

Mrs Blackitt: Really?

Mr Blackitt: Oh yes. And, what's more, because we don't believe in all that Papist claptrap we can take precautions.

Mrs Blackitt: What, you mean lock the door...?

Mr Blackitt: No no, I mean, because we are members of the Protestant Reformed Church which successfully challenged the autocratic power of the Papacy in the mid-sixteenth century, we can wear little rubber devices to prevent issue.

Mrs Blackitt: What do you mean?

Mr Blackitt: I could, if I wanted, have sexual intercourse with you...

Mrs Blackitt: Oh, yes... Harry...

Mr Blackitt: And by wearing a rubber sheath over my old feller I could ensure that when I came off... you would not be impregnated.

Mrs Blackitt: Ooh!

Mr Blackitt: That's what being a Protestant's all about. That's why it's the church for me. That's why it's the church for anyone who respects the individual and the individual's right to decide for him or herself. When Martin Luther nailed his protest up to the church door in 1517, he may not have realised the full significance of what he was doing. But four hundred years later, thanks to him, my dear, I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas. And Protestantism doesn't stop at the simple condom. Oh no! I can wear French Ticklers if I want.

Mrs Blackitt: You what?

Mr Blackitt: French Ticklers... Black Mambos... Crocodile Ribs... Sheaths that are designed not only to protect but also to enhance the stimulation of sexual congress...

Mrs Blackitt: Have you got one?

Mr Blackitt: Have I got one? Well no... But I can go down the road any time I want and walk into Harry's and hold my head up high, and say in a loud steady voice: 'Harry I want you to sell me a *condom*. In fact today I think I'll have a French Tickler, for I am a Protestant...'

Mrs Blackitt: Well why don't you?

Mr Blackitt: But they... [He points at the stream of children still pouring past the house.]... they cannot. Because their church never made the great leap out of the Middle Ages, and the domination of alien episcopal supremacy!
posted by shmegegge at 12:23 PM on November 6, 2007 [13 favorites]

the really fun part of the question is that, had Theodosius gotten up on the wrong side of the bed one morning in 391, the poster and his girlfriend and The Pink Superhero would all be worshipping Mithras and slaughtering bulls in caves
posted by matteo at 12:27 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

Allow me to be the first to say: bullshit. That's not a derail. If someone comes to us saying, "my spouse wants us both to get tattooed, but I don't want a tattoo. what kind should I get?" we would be right to point out that s/he should talk to the spouse about it and work it out. More so in this situation, where the spouses really need to have this discussion: what role is religion going to play in their lives?

I'm sorry, and I know that this is contentious. I know that the stock response from %90 of mefites is just a nonchalant "oh, stuff it, you lame-o protestant, catholics are just as bad as you are." I even know that my answer wasn't really worth the plate of beans it's written on. But the question is, "how do I resolve this? I won't have a catholic wedding, and I can't talk to her or her parents about it." It's as though I came in and asked, "I'm starving! How can I avert this awful situation? Oh, and by the way, I won't eat."

Dealing with the issue - are Catholic christian? - is part and parcel with the question. Again, it's not a derail. It ought to be a discussion. In fact, in an ideal world, it ought to be a discussion between the poster and her/his spouse.
posted by koeselitz at 12:28 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

matteo: "the really fun part of the question is that, had Theodosius gotten up on the wrong side of the bed one morning in 391, the poster and his girlfriend and The Pink Superhero would all be worshipping Mithras and slaughtering bulls in caves"

but GOD wiggled her little toe and gave us the catholic church. almost makes taking communion seem holy, now, doesn't it?
posted by koeselitz at 12:30 PM on November 6, 2007

Please place the following in order of which you would most want to be on a volleyball team of:

Catholics
Christians
Jews
West Virginia Mine Workers
Gays
Lesbians
Women
Lesbian Catholic School Girls
The Blackitts
Slaughtered Cave Bulls
Starving People That Won't Eat
posted by ND¢ at 12:31 PM on November 6, 2007 [3 favorites]

I just wanna chime in to note that saying the Catholic church isn't Christian is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard anyone say.

It tends to only comes out of the mouth of idiotic fundies. We are talking levels of retardation past even creationists.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 12:31 PM on November 6, 2007 [6 favorites]

God's Little Toes
Idiotic Fundies
Levels of Retardation
posted by ND¢ at 12:32 PM on November 6, 2007

He's probably just all het up about Guy Fawkes.
posted by klangklangston at 12:32 PM on November 6, 2007

"Lesbian Catholic School Girls"

How committed to lesbianism are they? Might they waver if I was the only guy on the team and also they were drunk a little?
posted by klangklangston at 12:34 PM on November 6, 2007

GOOGLE RON PAUL
posted by fandango_matt at 12:35 PM on November 6, 2007

No, they are committed lesbians, but they are better than average volleyballers.
posted by ND¢ at 12:35 PM on November 6, 2007

Wow. I was raised Southern Baptist, but no one in my church ever suggested that Catholics weren't Christians. Sure, the Protestants don't agree with a lot of Catholic practices, but this I've never heard tell of. Maybe my church was more liberal than I thought! Except that it wasn't.
posted by Evangeline at 12:36 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

the really fun part of the question is that, had Theodosius gotten up on the wrong side of the bed one morning in 391, the poster and his girlfriend and The Pink Superhero would all be worshipping Mithras and slaughtering bulls in caves

yeah, that's not true. You're forgetting the previous actions of the emperors before Theodosius and ignoring the entrenchment of Christianity by the time he came to power. The political and monetary powers given to the Christian church, and the growing weakness of the Roman Empire in the West, means that there wasn't any chance of Christanity being eliminated in the Western Empire which is where most of the strains of Christinanity in the US stems from.
posted by Stynxno at 12:38 PM on November 6, 2007

saying the Catholic church isn't Christian is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard anyone say

Oh, I don't know. I know a lot of Christians who aren't Christian, at least in the sense of following -- or even, if pressed on any given detail, agreeing with -- the teachings of Jesus.
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:38 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

What I've mostly heard (except from some rather aggressively niche non-denom Christian groups) is that Catholics et al just aren't sufficiently good at being Christian.
posted by cortex at 12:39 PM on November 6, 2007

I look forward to us solving this great theosophical question for the ages right here in MetaTalk!
posted by brain cloud at 12:40 PM on November 6, 2007 [4 favorites]

Can we please stop all this Catholic-baiting and get back to some Mormon-baiting?

Me, I'm neither, so I'll just continue Master-baiting.
posted by dgaicun at 12:40 PM on November 6, 2007

How committed to lesbianism are they? Might they waver if I was the only guy on the team and also they were drunk a little?

If they wouldn't waver, would you leave immediately on principle?

liar
posted by pineapple at 12:42 PM on November 6, 2007

When Roman Catholic Al Smith ran for president in 1928, the haters of that time printed a pamphlet showing him standing by a large tunnel which they said was his pipeline to the pope in Rome from whom he would be taking orders. Communications being what they were then, not everyone recognized that New York Governor Smith was standing by the Holland Tunnel.
posted by Cranberry at 12:42 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

Dealing with the issue - are Catholic christian? - is part and parcel with the question. Again, it's not a derail.

of course it's a key part of the issue -- the guy's question is based on an extremely flawed premise, like, "My girlfriend and I are about to jump out of the window and she says we'll fall and die but I know we'll fly upwards because I've been taught gravity doesn't exist; her belief in gravity is grating my nerves, what should I do?"

but reflexively and preemptively moving alleged derails to MetaTalk appeases our moderator's thirst for comment delòetions; and our moderators, unlike God, do actually exist, so it makes sense to try to make them happy.


almost makes taking communion seem holy, now, doesn't it?

no, that's Nicea, almost 75 years before Theodosius

;)
posted by matteo at 12:43 PM on November 6, 2007

posted by dgaicun Can we please stop all this Catholic-baiting and get back to some Mormon-baiting?

I have a year's supply of snark set aside for any emergency.
posted by fandango_matt at 12:44 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

means that there wasn't any chance of Christanity being eliminated in the Western Empire

you're wildly underestimating the appeal of a religion whose central image is that of a guy slashing a bull's throat while a scorpion is biting down hard on the bull's giant nutsack
posted by matteo at 12:45 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

posted by Cranberry When Roman Catholic Al Smith ran for president in 1928, the haters of that time printed a pamphlet showing him standing by a large tunnel which they said was his pipeline to the pope in Rome from whom he would be taking orders.

In a related story, the tunnel was thereafter referred to as the Pope Chute.
posted by fandango_matt at 12:47 PM on November 6, 2007 [3 favorites]

Jehovah's Witnesses.
posted by Reggie Digest at 12:49 PM on November 6, 2007

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. I immediately ran over and said “Stop! Don’t do it!”

“Why shouldn’t I?” he said.

I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!”

“Like what?”

“Well … are you religious or atheist?”

“Religious.”

“Me too! Are you Christian or Jewish?”

“Christian.”

“Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?”

“Protestant.”

“Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?”

“Baptist.”

“Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?”

“Baptist Church of God.”

“Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?”

“Reformed Baptist Church of God.”

“Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?”

“Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!”

To which I said, “Then die, heretic scum!” and pushed him off.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:50 PM on November 6, 2007 [27 favorites]

Emo Philips FTW.
posted by Reggie Digest at 12:53 PM on November 6, 2007

you're wildly underestimating the appeal of a religion whose central image is that of a guy slashing a bull's throat while a scorpion is biting down hard on the bull's giant nutsack

If it really was that powerful of an image, the barbarian kingdoms of the 4th and 5th centuries wouldn't have allowed christianity to thrive. By the end of the 3rd century, being Christian and being Roman were seen by the invaders as two sides of the same coin.
posted by Stynxno at 12:53 PM on November 6, 2007

I'll take popery for $1000, Alex.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:54 PM on November 6, 2007 [5 favorites]

It's like saying "my wife wants to get a dog, but I'd really rather get a mammal" or "my wife wants me to eat more apples, but I only like fruit."

Clearly the poster is unsure of what one of the two terms mean, or perhaps both.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 12:55 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

You know what infuriates me about Protestants at Catholic weddings? How they always screw up the Lord's Prayer.

(Pause.)

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory are yours...

Wait 'til the OP discovers that.
posted by yeti at 12:59 PM on November 6, 2007

I'll take popery for $1000, Alex.

This made me laugh to the point where my coworkers are looking at me funny.
posted by Stynxno at 1:00 PM on November 6, 2007

Reggie Digest: "Emo Philips FTW."

Who?
posted by koeselitz at 1:01 PM on November 6, 2007

Also, FWIW, it does seem to me that TPS herself believes Catholics are not Christians. If this is indeed the case, then allow me to state my opinion that this to my ears this is an outright bizarre thing to say.

Linguistically, is this usage (say "Jews, Hindus, Christians and Catholics") common in the US?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:01 PM on November 6, 2007

I'd never heard "He's a Catholic" before, and thought that only West Virginian mine workers would use that construction.

Huh. I've heard that construction all my life about any religion with which someone being discussed was associated. "He's a Methodist." "She's a Lutheran." "He's a Wiccan."

Doesn't sound unusual to me at all.

What does sound improper and unusual to my ear is "He's Jewish." "He's Catholic" sounds slightly less strange, but still a little like I'm identifying someone as a member of an alien species. It sounds as if one is trying to state their essence, rather than describe what place of worship they go to.
posted by lodurr at 1:02 PM on November 6, 2007

The modern Catholic church has thrived on people "going through the motions." Why is it so difficult for the AskMe poster to play along like everyone else?
posted by Durin's Bane at 1:02 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

koeselitz: Emo Philips
posted by Reggie Digest at 1:03 PM on November 6, 2007

Huh, I've seen that joke a million times and never seen it attributed to Emo Phillips. If he indeed wrote it, thanks.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:05 PM on November 6, 2007

erm, with two L's.
posted by Reggie Digest at 1:06 PM on November 6, 2007

Also, FWIW, it does seem to me that TPS herself believes Catholics are not Christians.

I'm not saying that; I'm saying that there are people who believe it, including, apparently, the OP of the AskMeta Q, and saying, "Well, Catholics and Christians are same according to me, so what's your problem, OP?" is more of a derail than a help in the question as posted.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:06 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

Is this seriously where we act puzzled that a religion could believe it has a monopoly on some meaningless concept, rather than act puzzled the religion believes in far crazier stories about talking animals, walking on water, and invisible space superheroes?

Seriously?

Do you really think the word 'Christian' means anything outside what adherents of whatever belief would like it to mean?

This isn't a historical question of "fact", it is a religious matter of "faith". Treating it like the former misses the point. And if you are going to miss the point anyway, then at least ask him why he is getting married in a church at all, and tell him to go pick up a copy of the God Delusion. But don't go argue with him about specific faith aspects of his religion. None of it is true.
posted by dgaicun at 1:06 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

I can't believe we're focusing on the Christian/Catholic thing. The real meat of the question is obviously "Are Filipinos Asians?"
posted by Greg Nog at 1:06 PM on November 6, 2007 [4 favorites]

You could always spot the Protestants at a wedding Mass because they stuff up the incessant bobbing up and down from your knees during the service. I believe the Church introduced this as a way of training altar boys for some of their more esoteric duties in the vestry post-sacraments.
posted by Abiezer at 1:07 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

posted by Durin's Bane The modern Catholic church has thrived on people "going through the motions." Why is it so difficult for the AskMe poster to play along like everyone else?

Because he doesn't want to and doesn't have to, despite what the overwhelming majority of people think.
posted by fandango_matt at 1:07 PM on November 6, 2007

Thanks for the clarification, TPS.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:08 PM on November 6, 2007

posted by Greg Nog The real meat of the question is obviously"Are Filipinos Asians?"

You've obviously never set foot in a Ranch 99 market.
posted by fandango_matt at 1:09 PM on November 6, 2007

the really fun part of the question is that, had Theodosius gotten up on the wrong side of the bed one morning in 391, the poster and his girlfriend and The Pink Superhero would all be worshipping Mithras and slaughtering bulls in caves

We slaughter our bulls over shallow graves.

Splitter.
posted by felix betachat at 1:10 PM on November 6, 2007

"I'm marrying my Catholic girlfriend, but I hate Catholics. What should I do?"

A. Suck it up
B. Dump her papist ass
C. ?
posted by Reggie Digest at 1:12 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

What this situation needs is a flowchart.

DO YOU LIKE RITUALS NO ↓ YES → DO YOU LIKE METAPHYSICS NO ↓ YES → JEW
--------------------PROTESTANT ------------------------- CATHOLIC
---------------------------------------------------- ( but please see Father O'Grady
----------------------------------------------------- for transubstantiation lesson)
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:12 PM on November 6, 2007 [8 favorites]

goodnewsfortheinsane: "Huh, I've seen that joke a million times and never seen it attributed to Emo Phillips. If he indeed wrote it, thanks."

He didn't write it. It's been around a fair sight longer than he has, as old as he is.

dgaicun: "Do you really think the word 'Christian' means anything outside what adherents of whatever belief would like it to mean?"

Could you ever be more condescending, foolish, or ill-thought, you complete and utter dropsy-ridden dolt? Completely disregarding your sottish reading of the circumstances surrounding so-called "faith," which indicates to me that you're actually less than a fool, it's pretty obvious to all involved that the ontological value of a couple's opinions is of no importance; the couple had better agree or come to an understanding. If they belonged to the first church of flapdoodles, and one of them wanted to get married in the second church of wingdoodles, they'd have a problem, regardless of the silliness of their customs, and they'd have to work it out.

But since dismissiveness and general derision seems to be par for the course with Dawkins and most of his ilk, feel free to vent your own opinion on the matter in this case. Just rest assured that it won't matter when it's ignored, as you never had the best interests of those involved at heart anyhow.
posted by koeselitz at 1:18 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

Gentlemen, Confusion to the Pope!
posted by Divine_Wino at 1:22 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

koeselitz you seem to be confused. I think their mismatched faiths are an extreme real world problem.

The secular criticism of his isolated religious belief about what constitutes a "real" "Christian", on the other hand, es muy retardo.
posted by dgaicun at 1:23 PM on November 6, 2007

Abiezer: Are they Christian?! Are the filthy Papists even human?

As someone who spent a happy chunk of his life reading science fiction I cannot let this thread pass withouth linking to James Alan Gardner's alternative history classic Three Hearings on the Existence of Snakes in the Human Bloodstream. It starts with a papal trial of Anton van Leeuwenhoek for claiming to have disproved a Catholic doctrine and makes its merry way from there.
posted by Kattullus at 1:24 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

Is this seriously where we act puzzled that a religion could believe it has a monopoly on some meaningless concept, rather than act puzzled the religion believes in far crazier stories about talking animals, walking on water, and invisible space superheroes?

Seriously?


Oh, just shut... UP! You have so many threads to say something that stupid in already. This is not the "make fun of the bible" thread. I'm not even religious, and I'm fucking tired of these god damn fuckwad clusters cluttering up my recent activity page for a full 30 days after the thread was originally posted. If I'd known you people were going to try to drag your atheism/theism shitfests into this thread, I would not have commented in it. You do not get to sabotage another thread with the same tired old "LOL, god's like a giant space superman, amirite?" jokes that everyone's already heard a million times already. Go away, this is the room for an argument, not abuse.
posted by shmegegge at 1:25 PM on November 6, 2007 [12 favorites]

shmegegge, you just aren't getting it either.
posted by dgaicun at 1:28 PM on November 6, 2007

Because he doesn't want to and doesn't have to, despite what the overwhelming majority of people think.

Right. He absolutely does not have to. It's just that not doing so probably means this girl won't marry him. His call on what his priorities are.

I'm an atheist who married a Catholic, in a Catholic service. I was willing to put up with what I saw as an afternoon of nonsense in order to marry this woman. Annoying maybe, but in the big picture, not THAT big of a sacrifice.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:28 PM on November 6, 2007

Cranberry: not everyone recognized that New York Governor Smith was standing by the Holland Tunnel.

Ah. So he'd've been taking his marching orders from Queen Wilhelmina instead.
posted by hangashore at 1:30 PM on November 6, 2007

Let's just not get into the whole Pope's nose business.
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 1:31 PM on November 6, 2007

No, we ARE getting it. It's still stupid, and you're really just way to invested in your viewpoint to fuck off and have a bitchfest about it where it belongs.
posted by shmegegge at 1:31 PM on November 6, 2007

Can we get a shout-out for Brandon Blatcher's nifty coinage, "rituations"?
posted by lodurr at 1:31 PM on November 6, 2007

*too
posted by shmegegge at 1:32 PM on November 6, 2007

posted by Chrysostom Right. He absolutely does not have to. It's just that not doing so probably means this girl won't marry him. His call on what his priorities are. I'm an atheist who married a Catholic, in a Catholic service. I was willing to put up with what I saw as an afternoon of nonsense in order to marry this woman. Annoying maybe, but in the big picture, not THAT big of a sacrifice.

Perhaps not to you, but to Phyltre, it is.
posted by fandango_matt at 1:33 PM on November 6, 2007

They worship Mary.
posted by mattbucher at 1:40 PM on November 6, 2007

It's a fine line between worship and revere, isn't it?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:42 PM on November 6, 2007

dgaicun: "The secular criticism of his isolated religious belief about what constitutes a "real" "Christian", on the other hand, es muy retardo."

Me cago en la leche de los senos de tu madre. Usar espanol gravemente para demonstrar que un otro es un idioto es demonstrar que eres un idioto, amigo.
posted by koeselitz at 1:47 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

That's it, I'm invading Lutter am Barenbarge. Who's with me?
posted by A Long and Troublesome Lameness at 1:48 PM on November 6, 2007

...when someone describes themself as a 'Recovering Catholic,' I think to myself 'What a dink'?

...and then I say to them 'Want a drink?'
posted by ericb at 1:49 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

are Christians catholic?
posted by nanojath at 1:51 PM on November 6, 2007

No, we ARE getting it. It's still stupid, and you're really just way to invested in your viewpoint to fuck off and have a bitchfest about it where it belongs.

Do you? I don't think you did. Your comment indicates you didn't understand the comment you were hyperventilating over: This is not the "make fun of the bible" thread.

Ok. The point wasn't that we should "bash" his religion, it was exactly the opposite. His religion is false - that is a fact. But he believes it, so if you want to help him don't try and "refute" his religion, with unrelated historical or theological argumentation, that is pointless. It is not helpful.

And if, IF, you are going to do that, I argued, then you might as well logically go the whole way, and tell him to stop believing in the false religious worldview altogether. Then the Catholic church thing won't mean very much at all.
posted by dgaicun at 1:53 PM on November 6, 2007

Just to back TPS up, I've heard the "Catholics aren't Christians" thing before, too.
posted by small_ruminant at 1:55 PM on November 6, 2007

The Death Cookie, anyone?
posted by dgaicun at 1:57 PM on November 6, 2007

"No, they are committed lesbians, but they are better than average volleyballers."

I think I might take the general "gays" then, as that circle includes many professional volleyballers.

I see enough unobtainable teen lesbians at work, thanks.
posted by klangklangston at 1:58 PM on November 6, 2007

Yeah, I'm quite serious about the "cult" description. That came out of my stepdad's Southern Baptist background somewhere.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:58 PM on November 6, 2007

Just to back TPS up, I've heard the "Catholics aren't Christians" thing before, too.

Me too. I know they taught my mother the same in her Ozarks Baptist church way back in the day.
posted by Bookhouse at 1:58 PM on November 6, 2007

Just to back TPS up, I've heard the "Catholics aren't Christians" thing before, too.

If you grew up catholic in a heavy fundie area, you heard this all the time.
posted by Stynxno at 1:59 PM on November 6, 2007

Do you? I don't think you did.

I know, but you seem to be having trouble understanding the thread at all. See, we're talking about an askme question, and your nonsense about telling him to abandon his religion would not be an appropriate answer, and it doesn't address the classification of catholics within Christianity, so everything you're saying is just more pointless opportunism for taking a jab at your favorite object of ridicule. So go away. We're not buying any today. What you said is stupid, and only funny to you. You're not making any good points, and it's not because we're all so much dimmer than you are. It's just that you don't get it.
posted by shmegegge at 1:59 PM on November 6, 2007 [5 favorites]

Wow, it feels like I'm at the Council of Trent, just with more assholes.
posted by turaho at 2:01 PM on November 6, 2007 [8 favorites]

dgaicun: "Ok. The point wasn't that we should "bash" his religion, it was exactly the opposite. His religion is false - that is a fact."

You're not really qualified to discuss anything with him, as you've proven (a) that your mind is entirely closed to his point of view, and (b) that you'll react incredulously and extremely when challenged. In short, you're displaying typical Dawkinsian anti-dialectic. No point in continuing discussion.
posted by koeselitz at 2:02 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

Wow. I was raised Southern Baptist, but no one in my church ever suggested that Catholics weren't Christians.

A lot of my family is Southern Baptist, and I grew up around a lot of suspicion about Catholics. (To me, as a kid, Jews were normal but Catholics were weird.) I don't know if anyone said they weren't Christians, but I woudn't be surprised. Half a century ago, the South was a much more parochial (heh) place.

And since someone mentioned the Pope's nose, here's a tasty bit o' Joyce:

He heaped up the food on Stephen's plate and served uncle Charles and Mr Casey to large pieces of turkey and splashes of sauce. Mrs Dedalus was eating little and Dante sat with her hands in her lap. She was red in the face. Mr Dedalus rooted with the carvers at the end of the dish and said:

—There's a tasty bit here we call the pope's nose. If any lady or gentleman...

He held a piece of fowl up on the prong of the carving fork. Nobody spoke. He put it on his own plate, saying:

—Well, you can't say but you were asked. I think I had better eat it myself because I'm not well in my health lately.

He winked at Stephen and, replacing the dish-cover, began to eat again.
posted by languagehat at 2:02 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

and your nonsense about telling him to abandon his religion would not be an appropriate answer

No it wouldn't be appropriate: Which is exactly what I was saying!! That's what people were asking him to do: abandon his religious belief that Catholics weren't Christians.
posted by dgaicun at 2:03 PM on November 6, 2007

When I was a wee lass, I went to a church (populated by West Virginian coal miners, no less) which I refer to now as the Church of Raving Nutjobs.

This church had many disagreeable characteristics for a young person who liked to ask questions and who was also of the girl persuasion. I did not like being part of an organization which proudly proclaimed I was inferior and I did not like the answer to all my questions being 'Because God said so. Shut up.'

So when these people, with their limited theology and boring services, would complain about how Catholics weren't Christians and how Catholics were dirty idol worshiping people who performed arcane rituals with incense and then casually threw in the fact that the Catholic Church was incredibly ancient, I was fascinated. Here are some people, thought the small winna, who like their religion without the screaming and foaming and rolling in the aisles! Here are people who have traditions and who have a consistent metaphysical framework! And so I went to mass every Sunday in college, even though I'm a totally indifferent atheist kind of person.

So thank you, Church of the Raving Nutjobs, for leaving this atheist with a soft spot for the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. It wasn't what you meant to do, but it was still a nice thing.

There are more people who don't think Catholics are Christians than normal people would suspect. I don't understand it. I think it's envy. If I was still sitting in a splintery pew in a cinderblock hut singing hymns invented in 1932 I'd be envious of the Catholics, too.
posted by winna at 2:03 PM on November 6, 2007 [8 favorites]

Christ, what an asshole.
posted by empath at 2:03 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

In all seriousness, I would just like to say in advance that their marriage is doomed, and that the only correct answer is that they should not get married at all.
posted by empath at 2:05 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

That's what people were asking him to do: abandon his religious belief that Catholics weren't Christians.

There are some people who are saying that, and it's not helpful. On the other hand, there are plenty of other people saying "Going through a Catholic wedding ceremony is not equal to admitting that Catholics are Christians."

There are more people who don't think Catholics are Christians than normal people would suspect. I don't understand it. I think it's envy.

Catholics are the Yankees of the Christian religions after all.
posted by drezdn at 2:08 PM on November 6, 2007

I see enough unobtainable teen lesbians at work, thanks.

Most tangential reason to namedrop your new job yet. It takes some dedication and serious workman's pride to get "hay guise I work fer porno lol" out of Catholicism vs. Christianity.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:09 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

...the line between worship and revere

Oh, Father Adamski drew that line somewhere midpoint on the Tobin/Mystic River Bridge.
posted by ericb at 2:10 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

By the way, languagehat, thanks for that portion from Portrait. Much appreciated on this Autumn day.
posted by koeselitz at 2:13 PM on November 6, 2007

posted by empath their marriage is doomed, and that the only correct answer is that they should not get married at all.

I'm ashamed to admit I thought the same thing. 23 years old and they can't compromise while the woman's parents railroad them into a ceremony neither is sure they want? Yeah, that'll be the happiest day of their lives.
posted by fandango_matt at 2:14 PM on November 6, 2007

Most tangential reason to namedrop your new job yet.

Can't speak for Klang, but I always think of porn when Catholicism come up. They go together like nuns and butter.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 2:15 PM on November 6, 2007

Metafilter: the Council of Trent, just with more assholes.
posted by ND¢ at 2:16 PM on November 6, 2007

If all Catholics are Christian, all Christians must be Catholic and therefore I'm the motherfucking pope! It makes perfect sense.
posted by slimepuppy at 2:17 PM on November 6, 2007

dgaicun,

understand this:

when you say this: And if you are going to miss the point anyway, then at least ask him why he is getting married in a church at all, and tell him to go pick up a copy of the God Delusion. But don't go argue with him about specific faith aspects of his religion. None of it is true.

Nobody cares if you're saying to leave the askme poster alone. I'm saying stop bringing your LOLXTIANS bullshit in here. we don't want it. you weren't saying that in jest, you were dead serious about how you think all religious belief is bullshit and that THAT'S why you think giving him shit about his views on catholics is stupid. I don't care. I'm saying leave the LOLXTIANS shit outside, because no one is interested in seeing this turn into another atheism v theism thread. if you really want to insist on talking about how false his religion is, you're just trolling, THAT'S what I'm saying. are you understanding the words I am using now? I have specifically not been addressing your points about the validity of his religion because I don't want to give any credit to your point. It is what you have chosen to say that is the problem, not the larger point you are trying to make by saying it. I am not talking to you any more about this. if there's any part of you with any restraint and empathy for other people whatsoever, stop being annoying.
posted by shmegegge at 2:19 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

You're not really qualified to discuss anything with him

Well I'm not participating in the Askme thread, but since the question demands secular answers I see no reason I couldn't offer advice if I wanted to. I have a few off-the-cuff ideas, but they don't seem to me all too great.

Your comment is pretty weird.
posted by dgaicun at 2:19 PM on November 6, 2007

I'm saying stop bringing your LOLXTIANS bullshit in here. we don't want it.

No. Go suck and egg if you don't like it.
posted by dgaicun at 2:20 PM on November 6, 2007

Here are people who have traditions and who have a consistent metaphysical framework! And so I went to mass every Sunday in college, even though I'm a totally indifferent atheist kind of person.

This doesn't make you Catholic, it makes you Anglican.
posted by bonehead at 2:22 PM on November 6, 2007 [6 favorites]

cough, cough
posted by Reggie Digest at 2:23 PM on November 6, 2007

Aaargh... an egg. Or a cock, or whatever.
posted by dgaicun at 2:26 PM on November 6, 2007

winna - confusingly, if you're not clued up on capitalisation and are a precocious child, the Church of England service uses exactly the same langauge (it's the Nicean Creed) and the congregation say that they believe in "one holy catholic and apostolic church".
posted by patricio at 2:29 PM on November 6, 2007

MetaFilter: A guy slashing a bull's throat while a scorpion is biting down hard on the bull's giant nutsack.
posted by SassHat at 2:29 PM on November 6, 2007

Just to back TPS up, I've heard the "Catholics aren't Christians" thing before, too.

I can't believe this is even in question. One of the first girls I ever dated was Pentecostal and when her mother found out I was Catholic it was over. Her word were exactly that: You are not a christian. Might not be right, but many people do believe it (and this was in california).
posted by justgary at 2:31 PM on November 6, 2007

Say I notice that three people in my office -- - Sam, Ted and Jane -- all start the day the same way: the all sit down, drink coffee with milk but no sugar, check their email, then go to the bathroom. For whatever reason, I want to talk about these people as a single group. So I need to come up with a term for them. I choose The Coffee People.

My term catches on with some of my office-mates. Soon, ten of us are talking about The Coffee People and we're all referring to Sam, Ted and Jane.

Then another co-worker, Eddy, says, "You know those people who drink ten cups of coffee a day? You know what I call them? The Coffee People!"

I say, "No. The Coffee People are Sam, Ted and Jane. They drink ONE cup of coffee a day -- not ten."

Am I right? Is Eddy right? Of course not. Maybe I'm using the term the way more people in my office tend to use it than Eddy is -- but that's not the same as me being right.

These arguments (and there are so many of them on MeFi and other places) about definitions are either foolish or masks for something else. If the participants really believe that phrases have cosmic, set-in-stone meanings, then they're foolish. But I doubt they think that.

I suspect that when someone says "a Catholic is a NOT a Christian," he either means something really mundane ("a Catholic doesn't fit the definition of 'Christian' that me and my friends use") or he means something really profound, like "Catholics worship false Gods!"

If that's what you mean -- if you mean that the Catholic faith is based on lies or misunderstandings or politics or whatever -- then SAY that. Otherwise these conversations get bogged down in fuzzy definitions.

Of course, the one good thing about word discussions is that everyone can have an opinion about what a word means, and the person who shouts the loudest wins. If you prefer gorillas thumping their chests to people arguing sensibly, then these definitional conversations are for you.

Otherwise, say something CONCRETE like "Catholic shouldn't be allowed in Christian churches because..." or "Catholics mistranslate this line of scripture as..." or "The Catholic conception of God is as valid as any other conception, because..."
posted by grumblebee at 2:34 PM on November 6, 2007 [4 favorites]

Okay, there's only one way to settle this. What's official Catholic doctrine on metaphorical vs. literal viking? We all know what a One True Church would espouse.
posted by Kattullus at 2:35 PM on November 6, 2007

grumblebee- As I understand it, traditionally the justification used was that Catholics worshipped Mary practiced idolatry, meaning Catholics worshipped pictures and statues (of Mary, and other saints, etc etc).
posted by small_ruminant at 2:45 PM on November 6, 2007

posted by Kattullus Okay, there's only one way to settle this.

Agreed. It all boils down to whether Catholic Filipino chicks are hot.
posted by fandango_matt at 2:47 PM on November 6, 2007

I know it's passé to point out the inanity of youtube comments, but this is just so awesome.

weirdalishot: what did he say at the end RIGHT BEFORE "then i pushed him over"

peepeez: he says "die, heretic"

weirdalishot: well then what does "heretic" mean???????

peepeez: heretic: misbeliever, religious outcast
a person who holds religious beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church

weirdalishot: oooooooooooh well how is that funny? please explain it more!

posted by team lowkey at 2:55 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

grumblebee: "I suspect that when someone says "a Catholic is a NOT a Christian," he either means something really mundane ("a Catholic doesn't fit the definition of 'Christian' that me and my friends use") or he means something really profound, like "Catholics worship false Gods!""

But those two options are the same; in both instances, it's a question of definition, it's just that the "mundane" one seems to matter less.

What's more, I have a feeling that all of us, regardless of our own opinions, have opinions about the definition of the word "Christian." That's why even those of us who aren't Christian sometimes speak about "legitimate Christians," thereby excluding Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, or other splinter groups. This is perfectly rational; in short, it's perfectly rational to discuss beliefs that one doesn't ascribe to; in fact, I believe it's a sign of intelligence if one is able to do so.

But all this comes down to the unfortunate fact that the original poster neglected to mention why he dislikes catholics, and precisely how he's going to overcome this during his marriage. These two elephants in the middle of the room will not be ignored, unfortunately.
posted by koeselitz at 2:57 PM on November 6, 2007

I just looked this up for a MoFi comment. Web claims it's Behan, but I think he was translating a traditional bit of Irish doggerel:

Of your eminent protestant prelates
Will you cease to prattle and prate
The foundation stones of their temple
Was the bollocks of Henry the Eight
posted by Abiezer at 2:57 PM on November 6, 2007 [3 favorites]

Stand up straight!
Stomach in!
Shoulders back!
Sound off!

ANGRY

NEUROTIC

CATHOLICS

It's a sin!
posted by The Straightener at 3:01 PM on November 6, 2007

But all this comes down to the unfortunate fact that the original poster neglected to mention why he dislikes catholics, and precisely how he's going to overcome this during his marriage. These two elephants in the middle of the room will not be ignored, unfortunately.

Indeed.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:04 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

My bet is it's the collars.
posted by Reggie Digest at 3:13 PM on November 6, 2007

Who gives a fuck about a collar? They drink blood, man.
posted by box at 3:21 PM on November 6, 2007

I'd wager it's probably having to choke down dry cookies or possibly that he doesn't like getting thoroughly pissed up when someone dies.

I'm against the former entirely and find the latter the most charming thing about popishness*, in case we are taking a poll.


*That and liberation theology anyway.
posted by Divine_Wino at 3:22 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

What about the architecture?
posted by box at 3:24 PM on November 6, 2007

Dgaicun:

The problem I've found with the Dawkin-fan splinter of atheism is that they're so enamored of a person who is correct but a total ass that they go on to emulate him. The problem is, when you're speaking to someone who disagrees, the "total ass" part gets in the way of the message.

In short, I think what you're saying in this thread ("The definitions of words like 'Christian' or 'Catholic' vary depending on the particular faiths of the user of those words. There is no concrete reference definition, so when you try to define those words differently than someone else, their faith is going to trump your etymology or historical reasoning. Therefore arguing about the 'proper' definition is a futile act best avoided.") is correct. Shame you throw so much shit on top of it.
posted by Bugbread at 3:36 PM on November 6, 2007

Let's talk about this over a tumbler of Drambuie, shall we?
posted by kosem at 3:37 PM on November 6, 2007

I'd wager it's probably having to choke down dry cookies or possibly that he doesn't like getting thoroughly pissed up when someone dies.

And eating a stupid number of pancakes the day before Lent starts. Everyone loves that.
posted by FritoKAL at 3:38 PM on November 6, 2007

Ooh, and the all-you-can-eat Friday fish fry!
posted by box at 3:44 PM on November 6, 2007

Entire generations of Catholic school kids grow up with one bad knee and one huge thigh from the stand-up-sit-down-fight-fight-fight Catholic mass.

Screw 'em.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:45 PM on November 6, 2007

Yeah, the original question sorta misses the point. If he can't deal with these issues for the actual wedding, how the hell is he going to deal with them during the marriage? It's ridiculous.
posted by Justinian at 3:47 PM on November 6, 2007

"I see enough unobtainable teen lesbians at work, thanks."

Y'all hiring?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:00 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

box : What about the architecture?

Damn right. I stopped being a Catholic when I was in 5th or 6th grade (coincidently that is around the same time I stopped going to a Catholic grade school, coincidence? You decide.)

But I never stopped loving the churches themselves. I have no interest in their religion, or their opinions on my lack thereof, but I will give Catholics one thing: They make a great box to worship in.
posted by quin at 4:03 PM on November 6, 2007

But I never stopped loving the churches themselves.

You should check out the Vatican some time. Particularly St. Peter's Basilica. That thing almost gave me religion which takes some doing. And to think it is hundreds of years old...
posted by Justinian at 4:06 PM on November 6, 2007

When I was growing up, it was said that real men didn't eat quiche. Was I supposed to be taking that literally too?
posted by klarck at 4:08 PM on November 6, 2007

"Y'all hiring?"

Nah, we just laid some poor bastard off, matter of fact.
posted by klangklangston at 4:40 PM on November 6, 2007

Also, FWIW, it does seem to me that TPS herself believes Catholics are not Christians.

Nah. She's never been anythingbut nice to this filthy papist. Although, I'm only a semi-practicing Catholic, which means I always say 'Good evening Father,' or 'Good evening, Sister,' to priests and nuns I pass on the street (even those Rasputin-looking Greek orthodox ones around here) and that I feel guilty about just about everything, but do it anyweay.
posted by jonmc at 4:42 PM on November 6, 2007

(also, I've stumbled upon Fundy religious programming where they've condemned Catholicism, and heard the occasional anti-Catholic remark from non-Catholics).
posted by jonmc at 4:43 PM on November 6, 2007

I stopped being a Catholic when I was in 5th or 6th grade (coincidently that is around the same time I stopped going to a Catholic grade school, coincidence? You decide.)

Did you go to a Catholic school around Milwaukee (on the off chance that I may have faced you or your relatives in basketball)?
posted by drezdn at 4:43 PM on November 6, 2007

Weird, Ambrosia Voyeur-- I thought that klangklangston was indicating that he was a high school teacher.

Nthing having heard the "Catholics aren't Christians" line, from, off the top of my head, Midwesterners and people from the Caribbean.
posted by ibmcginty at 5:00 PM on November 6, 2007

Isn't there a Chick Tract about the apocalypse that portrays the Pope as the Antichrist? That's really the only place I've ever seen Catholics called non-Christians.

I'm actually kind of ashamed I know about that.
posted by LionIndex at 5:17 PM on November 6, 2007

I feel guilty about just about everything, but do it anyway.

Ye're a good Catholic, me boy!
posted by languagehat at 5:25 PM on November 6, 2007

Thank ye, Father. Care for a whiskey?
posted by jonmc at 5:30 PM on November 6, 2007

That’s Catholic, Marge. You might as well ask me to do a voodoo dance.
posted by washburn at 5:32 PM on November 6, 2007

Why, I don't mind if I do! None of yer Bushmills, now, lad, though I know ye wouldn't be touchin' that heretic swill...
posted by languagehat at 5:33 PM on November 6, 2007

I'm not Catholic, and that makes me feel guilty.
posted by nola at 5:34 PM on November 6, 2007

None of yer Bushmills, now, lad, though I know ye wouldn't be touchin' that heretic swill...

Bushmills is Protestant whiskey. real Irish Catholics drink Jamesons.
posted by jonmc at 5:34 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

And a pint of John Powers for those of us who can't be fucked to join a congregation!

It always comes full circle, good night and God, the trinity, the mother Mary, Jesus and his homeboys or Dawkins bless, be well, be good to each other, don't give in to the fear.
posted by Divine_Wino at 6:00 PM on November 6, 2007

I'm just glad Dawkins came along when he did. Objectivism hasn't aged well, and all the overly self involved adolescents needed a new banner to follow.
posted by tkolar at 6:56 PM on November 6, 2007

Bushmills is Protestant whiskey. real Irish Catholics drink Jamesons.

Exactly me point, lad! Are ye not aware that the Prods are rank heretics?
posted by languagehat at 7:04 PM on November 6, 2007

That would be an ecumenical matter!
posted by Abiezer at 7:19 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

Ah, that's better. Would ye be likin' some green clovers, blue diamonds, and yella horshoes...
posted by jonmc at 7:23 PM on November 6, 2007

Isn't there a Chick Tract about the apocalypse that portrays the Pope as the Antichrist? That's really the only place I've ever seen Catholics called non-Christians.

Well whaddya know?
posted by Evangeline at 7:24 PM on November 6, 2007

"Most tangential reason to namedrop your new job yet. It takes some dedication and serious workman's pride to get "hay guise I work fer porno lol" out of Catholicism vs. Christianity."

C'mon, the only thing that peaks about the crushing mundanity of my job IS that I get to name-drop it.

Can't help that you're jealous.

(And besides, we got there through volleyball lesbians, which is as traditional an entrée to pornography as apostolic succession is to the discussion of Christian quiddity.)
posted by klangklangston at 7:45 PM on November 6, 2007

C'mon, the only thing that peaks about the crushing mundanity of my job

Wanna trade? Didn't think so.
posted by jonmc at 7:50 PM on November 6, 2007

I couldn't handle the commute.
posted by klangklangston at 7:55 PM on November 6, 2007

The louder a person proclaims himself to be a Christian, the more I consider him to be a Deuteronomist.

Summary of Christ's teachings in the bible?

1. Out with the old laws, in with the new.
2. Love one another.
3. Help the poor.
4. Be peaceful/turn the other cheek.
5. All welcome in kingdom of God.

Deuteronomists don't seem to really grasp the basic principles attributed to the person whose name is the root of what they call themselves.

Since "Christian" is taken, I like to refer to people who pattern their lives after the teachings of Christ as "Jesusocicists." Unfortunately, most people I would consider to be Jesusocicists call themselves Buddhists or Hindus.

As an aside...why, oh why, after GW Bush proclaimed that Jesus was his favorite philosopher did someone not ask him to summarize Jesus' philosophy, and then explain how his Bush's policies reflect that philosophy?
posted by flarbuse at 8:55 PM on November 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

i have an idea i didn't see posted in the original askme thread - the guy who posted it should submit to catholic premarital counseling - as long as his bride agrees to submit to counseling by a secular humanist.

now, can we have a separate metatalk thread about whether all bears that shit in the woods are really ursine?
posted by bruce at 9:40 PM on November 6, 2007

"Bushmills is Protestant whiskey. real Irish Catholics drink Jamesons.

Exactly me point, lad! Are ye not aware that the Prods are rank heretics?"

But what do the Black Prods drink??
posted by Wilder at 10:18 PM on November 6, 2007

Do Christians dream of Catholic sheep?

I'm curious as to where the Asker lives, or grew up. I'm guessing it didn't have a Catholic majority.

It takes some dedication and serious workman's pride to get "hay guise I work fer porno lol" out of Catholicism...

[Pulls every Pope from Peter to Ratzi out from behind lobby signboard]

Popeses [In unison]: You, you know nothing of our work...
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:38 PM on November 6, 2007

This is something I've had to argue with my in-laws. Yes, I am, in fact, a Christain. Yes, I have read the Bible. No, I don't worship Mary. No, rolling in the aisles frothing at the mouth is not theologically sound, according to your Bible. No, I don't take the Old Testament as gospel, or Paul's writings, that's what the Gospels are for. And yes, I do happen to think that rock/pop is inappropriate for worship, or at least that the lyrics are rather vapid.
posted by ysabet at 11:38 PM on November 6, 2007 [2 favorites]

I was raised a Free Will Baptist (which teaches the exact opposite of free will) and they were firm holders of the "Catholics aren't Christian" beliefs. In fact, I just visited TN recently on a trip home and had a bizarre conversation at my mom's new church:

Church Lady: "You live in Scotland, do you?"
ukdanae: "Yes, four years now."
Church Lady: "My son is a missionary over in Rome"
ukdanae: "Really? That must be an amazing place to live"
Church Lady: "Oh no, it's been a real trial for him missioning over there, Italy is only 2% Christian, the rest are all Catholics"
ukdanae: (chokes a little, smiles sweetly)
Church Lady: "I know those Catholics have the Bible and all but they must not be reading it right"

I could write a book about my religious upbringing.
posted by ukdanae at 2:33 AM on November 7, 2007 [1 favorite]

i have an idea i didn't see posted in the original askme thread - the guy who posted it should submit to catholic premarital counseling - as long as his bride agrees to submit to counseling by a secular humanist.

Uh, one of us is misreading the guy. I don't think he objects to the Catholic Church on the grounds that there isn't such a thing as God. I think he objects to the Catholic Church because they are filthy papists who distort the real meaning of Jesus Christ's teachings.

It's kind of like two big MST3k fans getting hitched and one of them finding it anathema that the other one wants to show an episode with Mike Nelson at the reception instead of the one true holy Joel Hodgsen.

Or it would be if so many people didn't take it so bloody seriously.
posted by Justinian at 2:42 AM on November 7, 2007

flarbuse: Summary of Christ's teachings in the bible?

You forgot:

6. Forsake your family and culture to follow me into whatever wilderness I deem fit.
posted by lodurr at 5:47 AM on November 7, 2007

Popeses [In unison]: You, you know nothing of our work...

Nice one, Alvy Singer.
posted by ibmcginty at 5:58 AM on November 7, 2007

Durin's Bane said:
The modern Catholic church has thrived on people "going through the motions." Why is it so difficult for the AskMe poster to play along like everyone else?

Durin; you nailed it like Christ on the Cross.
posted by BozoBurgerBonanza at 6:27 AM on November 7, 2007

Sure I'm an Ulster Orangeman,
From Erin's Isle I came,
To see my British brethren
All of honour and of fame,
And to tell them of my forefathers
Who fought in days of yore,
That I might have the right to wear,
The sash my father wore!

It is old, but it is beautiful,
And its colors they are fine
It was worn at Derry, Aughrim,
Enniskillen and the Boyne.
My father wore it as a youth
In bygone days of yore
And it is on the Twelfth I love to wear
The sash my father wore.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:17 AM on November 7, 2007

Denunciation of Pope John Paul II
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:22 AM on November 7, 2007

"I'm marrying my Catholic girlfriend, but I hate Catholics. What should I do?"

A. Suck it up
B. Dump her papist ass
C. ?

D. Profit!
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:33 AM on November 7, 2007

The sash my father wore.

I wandered around Ireland once with a rambunctious, drunken Oxford grad student (the adjectives are probably superfluous), and the only way I could keep him in line was by threatening to sing "The Sash My Father Wore" in public. He'd say pathetically "They'll let you live because you're American, but they'll lynch me!" I said "I know," and smiled evilly.
posted by languagehat at 7:38 AM on November 7, 2007

PeterMcDermott: my mom has said, on more than one occassion, that Ian Paisley will rot in hell with Cromwell. And she's not even a fire'n'brimstone type of lady.
posted by brain cloud at 8:26 AM on November 7, 2007

Googlefight never fails.
posted by Totally Zanzibarin' Ya at 9:51 AM on November 7, 2007

Googlefight never fails.

Actually, all that really proves is that people who refer to their religion as the catchall "Christian" put up more web pages. There is no corner of the world where we are safe from the evangelizing, unfortunately.
posted by brain cloud at 1:38 PM on November 7, 2007

Not be all Captain Obvious ("wears his underpants on the inside") but there are also a lot more people named "Christian" than there are named "Catholic."
posted by Kattullus at 2:56 PM on November 7, 2007

The sash my father wore.

Paging twistedonion.
posted by rush at 3:30 PM on November 7, 2007

there are also a lot more people named "Christian" than there are named "Catholic."

Well, we usually call 'em 'Cathy' for short.
posted by jonmc at 6:55 PM on November 7, 2007

Also, I'll bet that more Catholics than Protestants are named Jesus.
posted by Reggie Digest at 8:42 PM on November 7, 2007

Yes but are any Protestants named Protest?
posted by jonmc at 9:15 PM on November 7, 2007

Not sure. But chances are good you go to one of those snake-handling churches if your name is Wyatt, Cletus or Maynard.
posted by brain cloud at 9:53 PM on November 7, 2007

Oh, now you've done it. Now you've really gone and really done it, brain cloud.

*Backs away slowly, avoids wrath of Tool fans*
posted by Reggie Digest at 10:05 PM on November 7, 2007

Yes, I am, in fact, a Christain.

Oh, oh! Like on the Turin shroud? Cool!
posted by Jon Mitchell at 12:14 AM on November 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Well there may be more Christians, but Catholics have the better pedigree.
posted by oddman at 9:11 PM on November 12, 2007

Among the Russian Orthodox I have known, it is perfectly standard to use the terms 'Catholic' and 'Christian' contrastively—as in, 'Catholic Christmas is 13 days before Christian Christmas, but Catholic Easter is sometimes on Christian Easter.'

And they're free to do it. But thinking that the label somehow creates reality, instead of referring imprecisely to it, is on the other hand wrong, and hollering loudly about it is obnoxious and counterproductive.

To illustrate: I also belong to a faith that considers itself Christian, although not everyone agrees. Earlier this year I swapped a couple e-mails with a man who was complaining about some materials my church had published. He felt it unfair that we talked so much about worshipping Christ, and didn't post conspicuous notice of his faith's beef with us, and I found him groaning on his blog, 'Oh, there they go again, making it out like they're Christians.' My reply was essentially this: 'We make it clear that we worship and emulate Jesus, who grew up in Nazareth, taught people to live by certain principles, atoned for sins, and rose from the dead—ideas that you and I share. We also require people, before they join, to clearly learn and explicitly accept some ideas that you and I do not share. I don't think there are grounds for a charge of misrepresentation here, as far as the actual beliefs are concerned. So what are you worried about? That somehow people will think we're you, even though we tell them right off that we're not, just because we mentioned some of the beliefs that are in common? This is a question merely of labels. And you know what? Different people use this label differently.' Well, he maintained contrary to all evidence that there has been an overwhelming consensus throughout history on exactly who was really Christian and who wasn't, and where discussion gives way to mere assertion I lose interest pretty quickly, so I let that drop.

I really feel the same here: Are Catholics Christian? Depends who's labeling the Christians. Are paramecia animals? Depends who's classifying. Are mushrooms a vegetable? Depends whom you ask. Are non-Wintels still personal computers? Haven't you got anything better to do? It's nomenclature, man, not ontology, and if you didn't know that those aren't always identical, you'd better start your remedial reading a few thousand years ago 'cause this is old, stale, shriveled and moldy news, dude.

On the other hand, being able to talk to and reach agreements with the person you mean to marry ... that is an issue.
posted by eritain at 5:34 PM on December 3, 2007