vdare?

November 19, 2007 8:40 AM

How do people feel about links to vdare?

I find the site pretty obnoxious. I mean, at least Stormfront isn't coy about what it's all about. (vdare aside, do links to Stormfront get deleted regardless of where they occur?)

posted by chunking express to Etiquette/Policy at 8:40 AM (119 comments total)

A Stormfront link on the front page will usually get deleted. Buried in the comments there's a decent chance we may not see it. It happens so rarely there's not a firm guideline about it.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:48 AM on November 19, 2007

Her/his sentiment seems to indicate that the commenter is quite in favor of vdare.

In any case, I wouldn't mind if those comments were deleted, and if links like that were deleted or replaced whenever they came up from now on. But then, I've never been very wary of censorship, and have no scruples about taping the mouths of rapists.
posted by koeselitz at 8:49 AM on November 19, 2007

you sure taping the mouths would solve the problem? I would go lower.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 8:51 AM on November 19, 2007

Huh. I misspelled "racists." And it somehow made more sense than a misspelling ought to.
posted by koeselitz at 8:52 AM on November 19, 2007

It would personally amuse me if his comment stayed up, but the links were changed from vdare to carebears.com and mylittlepony.com.
posted by shmegegge at 8:54 AM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

The mating behavior of the anglerfish is bizarre, to say the least.

When the male anglerfish reaches maturity, its digestive system starts to atrophy. It needs to find a female, stat! Once he does, he attaches himself to her body and feeds off her blood stream. Over time, other parts of his body begin to degenerate and die, until he is nothing more than a lump of gonad tissue on the side of the female monkfish, releasing sperm in time with her ovulation.

And the most *amazing* thing is, that this is exactly what I do with my old bars of soap!
posted by Afroblanco at 8:55 AM on November 19, 2007 [7 favorites]

I think

1) as long as it isn't a front site link and
2) people point out the nature of these sites
3) it doesn't devolve into a shitstorm

it is not a huge deal to link to them, but then I don't have to deal with the fallout, and am generally pro deletion
posted by edgeways at 8:56 AM on November 19, 2007

I think that thread needs to be put out of it's misery. That's not science under fire from political correctness, that's racism wrapping itself in the cloth of science. And while it's kind of disappointing that many people have a difficult time distinguishing junk science from the real kind, that kind of racism is really just too offensive to be given a place.

It's just not the same as intelligent design or the global warming critics--this crap is on par or worse than the holocaust deniers and it shouldn't be here. I'm sorry if it makes the racists feel unwelcome, but they're making a whole lot of better people feel unwelcome.
posted by cytherea at 9:00 AM on November 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

/Shatner> I feel . . . . . relaxed! </Shatner/
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:00 AM on November 19, 2007

edgeways, that whole thread looks to have turned into a shit-storm before the comment was posted. (I was surprised the post wasn't deleted. I think in 50 years people are going to look at these IQ score "reports" the same way people nowadays look at those Victorian "reports" on how much Black peoples brains weigh.)
posted by chunking express at 9:02 AM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Wow. This guy is interesting:

cousincozen at 5:39 PM on November 14: This morning I read a commentary that presented what I'm sure is considered a rather heterodox view on the apparently intractable black-white disparities. Since it's evidently against MeFi etiquette to provide the link, here it is in it's entirety. Race/ IQ Explanation Gap At “Achievement Gap Summit” By Jared Taylor...

cousincozen at 9:02 AM on November 15, 2007: "Is that...is that supposed to be some kind of rationalization for white privilege?" No, it's supposed to be at least an insinuation that the concept of "white privilege" is horseshit.

cousincozen at 1:42 PM on October 5, 2007: I can't wait 'til the ragheads get their nu-que-ler chops together, and nuke a Northern city or two. Then I'll get to laugh my ass off. Again.

An real contrarian we got here.
posted by koeselitz at 9:03 AM on November 19, 2007

An real contrarian? God. Not enough sleep, too much beer.
posted by koeselitz at 9:04 AM on November 19, 2007

Also, I'm cool with just mocking people that link to lame sites on the internet to prove their points. I'm really just curious about how the mods view stuff like this. I think vdare crosses the line into crazy-ass junk-science backed racism, but some people may think its more nuanced.
posted by chunking express at 9:07 AM on November 19, 2007

Metafilter: crosses the line into crazy-ass junk-science backed etc.
posted by GrammarMoses at 9:10 AM on November 19, 2007

I'm really just curious what justifies that thread's existence at all. Other than its usefulness as a litmus for shitcocks, which is not without value.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:10 AM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

What cytherea said. I can't believe that was even posted, and not blown out of the water faster. I blame Sunday.
posted by Miko at 9:19 AM on November 19, 2007

Bullshit link to a bullshit author on a bullshit topic with a thread filled with the usual bullshit artists.

Other than its usefulness as a litmus for shitcocks

Ay, springes to catch shitcocks.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:22 AM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Race/IQ phrenologists did WTC!
posted by Abiezer at 9:23 AM on November 19, 2007

see also
posted by exlotuseater at 9:25 AM on November 19, 2007

Man, that's really coincidental that you'd bring up phrenology, Abiezer. I took a snootful of Nyquil last night (nursing a cold) and I had a dream last night where I performed phrenology on tables, using slight defects in their laminated surfaces to determine what kind of homes or businesses they should go to. One of the last tables I dealt with had no irregularities in its surface at all, and I dubbed it the perfect table, and I wound up smuggling it off of Earth so that it and I could live in peace on a different world.
posted by boo_radley at 9:27 AM on November 19, 2007 [26 favorites]

ah, but your perfect table is still at one or two removes from the UR-TABLE, which I am sitting at right now.
posted by exlotuseater at 9:31 AM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Oh, almost forgot -- this vdare thing is total bullshit.
posted by boo_radley at 9:31 AM on November 19, 2007

Other than its usefulness as a litmus for shitcocks

so, you see it as a kind of gaydar then?
posted by quonsar at 9:32 AM on November 19, 2007

So basically cousincozen is like bevets only for racism?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:33 AM on November 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

I know it's Monday morning and all, but damn, quonsar. You can do better.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:35 AM on November 19, 2007

Main Entry: coz·en
Pronunciation: \ˈkə-zən\

to deceive, win over, or induce to do something by artful coaxing and wheedling or shrewd trickery
posted by quonsar at 9:37 AM on November 19, 2007

FAIL
posted by quonsar at 9:38 AM on November 19, 2007

See? I thought cousincozen meant he was sleeping with a relative.
posted by cytherea at 9:43 AM on November 19, 2007

Man, that's really coincidental that you'd bring up phrenology, Abiezer. I took a snootful of Nyquil last night (nursing a cold) and I had a dream last night where I performed phrenology on tables, using slight defects in their laminated surfaces to determine what kind of homes or businesses they should go to. One of the last tables I dealt with had no irregularities in its surface at all, and I dubbed it the perfect table, and I wound up smuggling it off of Earth so that it and I could live in peace on a different world.

This is the best dream. Of all time.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:56 AM on November 19, 2007

To both vdare links and cousincozen: ew. Get off my lawn. Really.
posted by rtha at 10:27 AM on November 19, 2007

Here's a Usenet post from 1996 mentioning Sovtek 74xx series ICs.
posted by jbickers at 10:28 AM on November 19, 2007

Picking Pans for Baking
When you are baking pies and breads, use a dark pan. This will aid in browning the crusts better. When baking cookies or cakes, use a shiny pan. This will help prevent over darkening of the bottoms and sides. If you decide to use a glass pan, don’t forget to reduce your oven temperature by 25º. You may also want to check for doneness a few minutes before the timer goes off.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 10:37 AM on November 19, 2007

cousincozen also started an ill-fated thread about a blonde feminist lawyer who had written an argument regarding the need for more state control in home schooling. It consisted entirely of vdare links. I mention this only because I see a pattern.
posted by never used baby shoes at 10:40 AM on November 19, 2007

After his deleted FPP a few days ago, one might ask whether this guy will ever add anything useful to Metafilter.
posted by roll truck roll at 10:43 AM on November 19, 2007

boo_radley work in a love triangle (a jilted chaise?) and some veiled social commentary and you've got a bestseller there.
posted by Skorgu at 10:47 AM on November 19, 2007

I just made amazing bacon and eggs with white toast and black coffee. I cooked the bacon first, then dropped the eggs into the bacon grease. I used this great new pre-seasoned skillet I bought recently. It's also great for steaks. I cooked an amazing free-range NY strip a couple of days ago.

Also, cousincozen is the one who dropped my "real" name in that thread the other day. Prettttty classy, baby!
posted by exlotuseater at 10:47 AM on November 19, 2007

Jeebus, even his Ask answers are on-point.

(Most of the thread is an unredeemed shitfest, agreed, but "couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel" is PF priceless, IMO.
posted by lodurr at 10:51 AM on November 19, 2007

Ay, springes to catch shitcocks.

See, that thread was worth it just for inspiring this.

But you can nuke it now; it's served its purpose.
posted by languagehat at 11:08 AM on November 19, 2007

You have a real name? Lucky bastard. I used to have a real name, but some pervert happened to also be using it, and when he became world-famous for his perversion, it meant I could never, ever, use my real name in the Internet.





Say, is that a tiny violin I hear?


posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:20 AM on November 19, 2007

No, sorry, that was just me rubbing my hind legs together.
posted by lodurr at 11:22 AM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

So, is that particularly fiddly-sniffy look look I have graphs kind of racism a form of mental illness or just a hobby for bitter, fearful people? I can never decide.
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:39 AM on November 19, 2007

I think most mefites are smart enough to consider the messenger as well as the message, and to speak up when somebody posts a bullshit link. Then again, I have a 65k+ user number, so wtf do I know, right?
posted by waraw at 11:39 AM on November 19, 2007

You know what I can't believe? I can't believe after 65,000 users that name was still available.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 11:46 AM on November 19, 2007

You know what I can't believe? I can't believe after 65,000 users that name was still available.

Which makes it even more funny that Obese Truckers, I sure am ambivalent about analingus is taken.
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:52 AM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

wtf do I know, right?

Well, you certainly can't count.
posted by mediareport at 11:53 AM on November 19, 2007

exlotuseater writes "I just made amazing bacon and eggs with white toast and black coffee. I cooked the bacon first, then dropped the eggs into the bacon grease."

That's the best way to do bacon and eggs. Learned that from my grandmother.

You're making me hungry, and I just had lunch.
posted by never used baby shoes at 11:58 AM on November 19, 2007

thanks china. jerks.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:00 PM on November 19, 2007

65k, 63k, whatever. close enough.
posted by waraw at 12:00 PM on November 19, 2007

Could you please ban yourself? Seriously. That username sucks.
posted by mediareport at 12:10 PM on November 19, 2007

That username sucks.

Not necessarily.
posted by timeistight at 12:13 PM on November 19, 2007

roll truck roll: After his deleted FPP a few days ago, one might ask whether this guy will ever add anything useful to Metafilter.

This is the biggest understatement of all time. Christ, look at his posting history, here and on slate (thanks exlotuseater). He's a racist fuckwad. He seems to realize that linking to the shit he links to, for example, under "and bump it up a notch" here (sorry kids, I'm not linking directly to Fred Reed) isn't likely to go over well here on MeFi, but I don't believe restraint turns racism into a virtue.

This is actually a good question, and I'm glad chunking express brought it up. What do we do with racists who have proven track records as racists? It's not really a voice we need to add to the conversation, is it? Of course, there are plenty of comments here already (I'm thinking, for example, of his commenting an entire Jared Taylor article in-thread, or of his little troll about waiting for another Yankee-killing 9/11 to laugh about) that warrant banning, I think.

I say ban him. There's plenty of cause already, and plenty of evidence that he won't change. But maybe jessacorthowie is waiting for the last straw, which seems inevitable at this point, given our dear cousin's posting history here and elsewhere.
posted by koeselitz at 12:16 PM on November 19, 2007

I blame Sunday.

That was actually our rationale for leaving the post that had maybe 80 comments before any of us saw it. We all talked about it. In hindsight it may have been a bad decision. cc is on a one day timeout for telling someone to fuck off in that thread, I'll dorp him an email and see if it has any effect.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:20 PM on November 19, 2007

dorpdorp
posted by exlotuseater at 12:24 PM on November 19, 2007

I know, I'm like ten years old.
posted by exlotuseater at 12:25 PM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

jessamyn: That was actually our rationale for leaving the post that had maybe 80 comments before any of us saw it. We all talked about it. In hindsight it may have been a bad decision.

Cool, jessamyn. That's understandable.

Just out of the blue, is it possible to close a thread to new comments without deleting it? Aren't there situations where that might make sense? Or would that create more trouble than it would be worth? I'm sure we've talked about this before...
posted by koeselitz at 12:30 PM on November 19, 2007

It's not really a voice we need to add to the conversation, is it?

That's basically my thought on the matter. One reason I like this site is that I don't come across too much "here is a chart that proves Black people are monkeys" type stuff. There are plenty of places to go if that's your thing, or if you want to argue with people about that sort of thing. Arguing about it here seems to give that crowd more legitimacy than they deserve.
posted by chunking express at 12:37 PM on November 19, 2007

In hindsight it may have been a bad decision.

How many times has that happened with a deleted post? Seeing as how they are easily resurrected I'm frankly bewildered by the hesitance to nuke such flamebait, especially as of late. It just seems to be the MO around here, after X comments in the crucible of 3AM/Sunday a post is suddenly transmuted into some polarizing, unbreakable diamond rather than the random collection of garbage that it truly is.

As far as this fellow is concerned, I realize (or have been told a few times) that this is not a "thought crime" community, but come now. It is quite clear he is a broken record of invective laden nonsense. Let's put him out to pasture, as it were.
posted by prostyle at 12:37 PM on November 19, 2007

There's no mechanism right now for doing it; adding it doesn't seem like a great idea, because if shit gets so bad we need to close comments, we probably don't need to kid-gloves it just to keep it visible. The dedicated can always bookmark the deleted thread.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:38 PM on November 19, 2007

Help a noob understand all this please.

OK, I understand and agree with the following:
1) Racism is bad
2) MeFi does not want to promote racism
3) MeFi mods are entitled to delete whatever they please, for whatever reason

Is that all there is to it in cases like the post in question-- we don't want to give racists a platform? Or have there been problems in the past with racists trolling here, that sort of thing?

I ask because--
*bracing myself*
--I wonder if it's not the worst thing in the world to allow a dialogue with racists on MeFi. Maybe I'm alone here, but I actually enjoy seeing the opposition's arguments, and seeing the counter-arguments people offer. Since I'm not a science-oriented person, for example, it's cool to see our scientific types point out the faulty research racists cite, provide links to better research, etc.

Or would MeFi just degenerate into an all-race, all-the-time forum if racist posts were allowed? Is that the idea, or what am I missing?

And you all realize that everyone is racist, whether they want to be or not, on some level, right?
posted by Rykey at 12:50 PM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

How many times has that happened with a deleted post? Seeing as how they are easily resurrected I'm frankly bewildered by the hesitance to nuke such flamebait, especially as of late. It just seems to be the MO around here, after X comments in the crucible of 3AM/Sunday a post is suddenly transmuted into some polarizing, unbreakable diamond rather than the random collection of garbage that it truly is.

I would have guessed there were some subjects that are uniformly unacceptable -- "Was the Holocaust a Hoax?" for instance -- but apparently it's all good if you find the magic window? Weird; okay.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:51 PM on November 19, 2007

Deleting the post? Anybody who wants to raise the issue is a racist?

Uh huh.

Those of you who are determined to shut down the discussion don't do your position any favors. That convinces no one. The name calling and associated histrionics are poor options as well; they just make you look bad.

But that said I'm glad nasreddin did on occasion deign to actually enter the debate, and the two links he posted dealing with heritability were very good and worth thinking about. I still lean towards the opinion that intelligence can be measured but those articles, along with Thomas Sowell's review of the Bell Curve in American Spectator, convince me that the heritability of intelligence is an open question.

It's a shame so many of you are convinced on what the reality of the matter is. These are legitimate questions and the answers are not as automatic as some would like to portray them.

Mainstream Science on Intelligence

2. Intelligence, so defined, can be measured, and intelligence tests measure it well. They are among the most accurate (in technical terms, reliable and valid) of all psychological tests and assessments. They do not measure creativity, character personality, or other important differences among individuals, nor are they intended to.

3. While there are different types of intelligence tests, they all measure the same intelligence. Some use words or numbers and require specific cultural knowledge (like vocabulary). Others do not, and instead use shapes or designs and require knowledge of only simple, universal concepts (many/few, open/closed, up/down).

...

5. Intelligence tests are not culturally biased against American blacks or other native-born, English-speaking peoples in the U.S. Rather, IQ scores predict equally accurately for all such Americans, regardless of race and social class. Individuals who do not understand English well can be given either a nonverbal test or one in their native language.

...

14. Individuals differ in intelligence due to differences in both their environments and genetic heritage. Heritability estimates range from 0.4 to 0.8 (on a scale from 0 to 1), most thereby indicating that genetics plays a bigger role than does environment in creating IQ differences among individuals. (Heritability is the squared correlation of phenotype with genotype.) If all environments were to become equal for everyone, heritability would rise to 100% because all remaining differences in IQ would necessarily be genetic in origin.

*****

I quote 14 not because I agree with it, as mentioned above I don't, but to show that this is not some crackpot lunatic fringe position.
posted by BigSky at 1:01 PM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

After following koeselitz's link, I did some poking around on the Slate forums (because, apparently, I had an unconscious yearning to get all all worked up over something today). A lot of what he's saying over there wouldn't fly for half a minute here. For instance:

The Klan doesn't exist. I'm not even sure that it actually did when everyone said that it did, post WWII, and weren't really in fact more like costume Nazis. That there is any indication that it still does exist is the work of juvenile delinquents and Tawana Brawley-type nappy-headed hoaxers.

That's one of the milder bits. The fact that they flies at all over there and clearly is not at all cool here gave me a nice case of metafilter-based warm fuzzies.
posted by mostlymartha at 1:03 PM on November 19, 2007

I wonder if it's not the worst thing in the world to allow a dialogue with racists on MeFi. Maybe I'm alone here, but I actually enjoy seeing the opposition's arguments, and seeing the counter-arguments people offer.

it's not the worst thing at all. there's just so very little point. as wonderful as the internet is, it doesn't change any one's lifestyle in quite that way. people don't learn tolerance after a healthy internet debate. people learn tolerance in their homes and schools or someplace else personal and developmental. there simply comes a point where the idea of arguing with someone about whether or not it's okay to be a racist (or any other way someone would like to euphemise it) as if their side of things had some merit is just a colossal waste of time. the way to end racism isn't to argue with dyed-in-the-wool racists, it's to try and make it so that racists have difficulty finding a mate to create more racists with.

here's a conversation that a person with an exceptionally rosy view of life could imagine happening, but that would never ever ever happen.

racist: i think blacks are born stupid.
reasonable human being: I think that if you examine the facts from a logical perspective, you'd feel differently.
racist: well, I see your point, but I have this study here that proves that blacks are born stupid.
rhb: ah, but you see! here are several irrefutable reasons why that study is suspect and not to be trusted.
racist: by gum, you're right! how clearly reason and logic have caused me to see the light! my days of racism are over, and I shall crusade against my old causes with all the fervor with which I used to champion them, if not more!

in reality, it'd just be a crazy flame war, or at best an opportunity for a racist to reinforce his own ridiculous beliefs and those of similarly minded folk within earshot. You don't argue with this shit as if its viewpoint had some merit or logical footing, and you don't give it a forum to voice itself. you make it stop and send it away.
posted by shmegegge at 1:05 PM on November 19, 2007 [3 favorites]

shmegegge has it exactly. Arguing with straight up racists is a waste of time. Arguing with people who are certain they aren't racist, but think black people are idiots because Steve Sailer wrote an essay saying as much isn't going to go much better.

The internet isn't a good forum for conflict resolution.
posted by chunking express at 1:12 PM on November 19, 2007

Those of you who are determined to shut down the discussion don't do your position any favors. That convinces no one. The name calling and associated histrionics are poor options as well; they just make you look bad.

I'll live with the stain. Nuke this bullshit from fucking space.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:13 PM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

shmegegge: people learn tolerance in their homes and schools or someplace else personal and developmental.

I just wanted to quote that. One of the things I've found that most easily flusters people who advocate for religion on the grounds of moral education and enforcement is to say something like this. Usually something like "people don't learn morality from the bible, they learn it from their family and neighbors." (Which AFAICS is also were they learn immorality and intolerance.)

"He's more than famous -- he's in-famous!"
posted by lodurr at 1:14 PM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

I would have guessed there were some subjects that are uniformly unacceptable

Well, not really. There are definitely some subjects that are consistently contentious, and those need to be handled with a lot more care than most posts if we don't want a great shitstorm on our hands. Presentation (and yes, oddly enough, timing) can be the difference between a trainwreck and an interesting (if heated) thread.

It's specifically because there are no pre-emptively forbidden topics that we end up trying to make calls and play these things as they come; the goal is not to tell people not to argue about racism, or even to prevent people from arguing racist positions, but to keep the site from going to shit. And, frankly, people have a hard time staying civil around someone advancing a hardline argument they find loathesome, so it makes for some really tough situations for both the community and for administrative decisions.

So we end up having to respond a lot more often—and thus, eventually, somewhat more proactively—to posts on some subjects, not because the subject is right out so much as because it just causes headaches. It's a running half-joke at this point, the laundry list of things that Metafilter Doesn't Do Well. It's not gospel truth, but it's a reasonable artifact of collective community wisdom: there be dragons.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:18 PM on November 19, 2007

And you all realize that everyone is racist, whether they want to be or not, on some level, right?

No, no Ryder, you're not doing it right. A good jonmc impression would involve saying that in the race thread, not the metatalk thread about the race thread.
posted by Kwine at 1:25 PM on November 19, 2007

people don't learn tolerance after a healthy internet debate.

Well, no shit. But other people can learn quite a bit.

You don't argue with this shit as if its viewpoint had some merit or logical footing, and you don't give it a forum to voice itself. you make it stop and send it away.

I agree in general, but even the people in this thread who argue from an anti-racist perspective have a meaningful diversity of opinion. Is intelligence measurable? If it is, what's the best way to measure it? Does cultural bias in intelligence testing exist? If so, to what extent, and how can it be controlled for? What does the research show? What are the problems with this research?

These are all questions that intelligent, anti-racist people can (and do) disagree about. Questions that the knee-jerk reactions that Big Sky describes cannot answer very well.

Don't get me wrong here-- if it's as simple as, "We don't want that shit here" on the part of the mods, then that's a satisfactory answer.
posted by Rykey at 1:27 PM on November 19, 2007

On review, thanks Cortex for clearing that up for me.
posted by Rykey at 1:29 PM on November 19, 2007

Things Metafilter Doesn't Do Well:

1. Obesity
2. Circumcision
3. Cat Declawing
4. Cat Circumcision
5. Racism
6. Ron Paul
7. That tiny subset of politics that I hear doesn't involve Ron Paul.
8. Portabello Mushrooms
9. Luck Dragons
10. Boingboing
11. Digg
12. Reddit
13. Non-self-referential filtering
14. Drama
15. Right hands
16. In-jokes
17. Cameras
18. Vibration
19. Fish
20. Pants
21. SLOE
22. the getting of one's own blog, fucking or otherwise
23. a certain celebrity's complete lack of genetic abnormalities.
24. flashers
25. double posts
26. the death of james brown
27. elections
28. ceiling cat
29. anagram maps
30. steampunk
31. doctorow
31a. whichever one you want
32. sexism
33. boyzone
34. lists
posted by shmegegge at 1:33 PM on November 19, 2007 [13 favorites]

So we end up having to respond a lot more often—and thus, eventually, somewhat more proactively—to posts on some subjects, not because the subject is right out so much as because it just causes headaches.

Indeed. At a certain point early on, it dawned on me that in some completely crazy way I will never, ever understand, landis thought he was doing something other than race-baiting by starting the thread, and my anger (at him) pretty much turned into a "what the fuck were you thinking?" kinda thing. It should really be obvious, I think, that nothing good can possibly come from a thread like this. Which may be true of many subjects, but in the case of this one, I think it should be equally obvious that a great deal of bad can come from this. People are hurt and offended and angered by the thread, and I don't think it says anything good about the site to keep it up there; it is, to say the least, insensitive.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:35 PM on November 19, 2007

These are all questions that intelligent, anti-racist people can (and do) disagree about. Questions that the knee-jerk reactions that Big Sky describes cannot answer very well.

yeah, cortex laid down the basic moderator opinion on the matter. as far as what I (and if I'm understanding some people in here, others as well) feel about it:

hey, that's cool. no doubt there will be a good thread to have that discussion in.

but it's all moot. the thread is staying, so that's that.
posted by shmegegge at 1:35 PM on November 19, 2007

...it is, to say the least, insensitive.

If this is any kind of criteria, we're all fucked. ;P
posted by Rykey at 1:43 PM on November 19, 2007

aw man, no ceiling cat?!
posted by cowbellemoo at 1:56 PM on November 19, 2007

33. boyzone

Isn't the common complaint that we do boyzone TOO well?
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:05 PM on November 19, 2007

Wait -- James Brown is dead?
posted by Reggie Digest at 2:11 PM on November 19, 2007

I don't think it's matter of "This person's opinions don't add anything to the conversation" so much as "This person doesn't add anything to the conversation."

There are a lot of people on MeFi with whom I disagree extremely strongly; hell, there are even people here I don't like very much. But I've learned things from those people. Sometimes they've taught me things I didn't know about their pet subjects, and sometimes they've helped me better explicate my own arguments.

But I don't even care, man. When you begin an FPP with "A blonde feminist law professor," you're making it jolly well clear that you're not here to participate in edifying discussion.
posted by roll truck roll at 2:16 PM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

You're utterly full of it, shmegegge.

We did Portabello Mushrooms very well.
posted by koeselitz at 2:26 PM on November 19, 2007

Not everyone is racist. Occasional rectifiable fits of ignorance do not a racist make. It requires a certain amount of deliberation. It is the racist's choice to be
antagonistic, to rule out their perceived 'enemies' as unworthy of respect or compassion or dignity. People may be born into racism, but no one is a born racist.

Also, I object to the username Rykey. Me no _____.
posted by Reggie Digest at 2:35 PM on November 19, 2007

35. tasty julienne fries
posted by waraw at 2:37 PM on November 19, 2007

Isn't the common complaint that we do boyzone TOO well?

I just meant that the topic does not go well, here. as in, discussing it.

also re: ceiling cat - no. 28, dude.
posted by shmegegge at 2:44 PM on November 19, 2007

An Apple Premium Retail Store just opened in my town, trading under the name "Stormfront". I'm sure it's entirely innocent, but it's hard not to feel a bit weird about them.
posted by teleskiving at 2:56 PM on November 19, 2007

Not everyone is racist. Occasional rectifiable fits of ignorance do not a racist make. It requires a certain amount of deliberation. It is the racist's choice to be
antagonistic, to rule out their perceived 'enemies' as unworthy of respect or compassion or dignity.

That's a very narrow definition of racism, and one that represents its least common incarnation. Racism has almost nothing to do with intent, and almost everything to do with a social situation in which one race is more socially/economically/politically powerful than another.

People may be born into racism, but no one is a born racist.
That is true, but people are born selfish, and that's where the trouble starts.
posted by Rykey at 2:58 PM on November 19, 2007

Apple always did have something Third-Reichy about them. Whether it's the Bauhaus-inspired design, the oppressive insignia, or just the obsession with whiteness, I can't say.

Some day, if I have my way, all of our children's computers will be a beautiful beige.
posted by Reggie Digest at 3:09 PM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Just think about it. What can you find on every pearly new iBook?

A white power button.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:30 PM on November 19, 2007 [5 favorites]

What is vdare? And no. I am not clicking on that link to find out. I'm on enough watch lists. Somebody tell me.
posted by tkchrist at 3:37 PM on November 19, 2007

and almost everything to do with a social situation in which one race is more socially/economically/politically powerful than another

Wouldn't that be "class."
posted by tkchrist at 3:38 PM on November 19, 2007

via Wikipedia, tkchrist.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:38 PM on November 19, 2007

And, tkchrist, he keeps quoting Jared Taylor. From that link:

"Jared Taylor is a man of immense ability and the courage commensurate and necessary for telling the long-suppressed truths of race." -David Duke

"Jared Taylor is the cultivated, cosmopolitan face of white supremacy. He is the guy who is providing the intellectual heft, in effect, to modern-day Klansmen." -Mark Potok, editor of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Report

Ahem.
posted by koeselitz at 3:44 PM on November 19, 2007

Just think about it. What can you find on every pearly new iBook?

A white power button.

Actually cortex, there are black Macbooks now. Not only do they come with a black power button, They also have bigger hard drives than the white ones. I'm not sure if this is due to the product's natural evolution, or if it's by design.
posted by billyfleetwood at 3:59 PM on November 19, 2007 [4 favorites]

Isn't the problem that the link isn't good (i.e. its content immediately raises questions about its assumptions)? Bad premises-->bad discussion.
posted by ersatz at 5:05 PM on November 19, 2007

i think people who link to vdare are lame - if they do so while making an fpp, it should be nuked - if they do so as part of a comment, i'd let it stay so people can see how lame the person doing that is

other issues

no, i don't think cousincootie should be banned ... yet

i think that once in a great while, we can afford to let through a piece of stupid and offensive bullshit such as the race and intelligence thread, and let there be a debate about it - i was surprised at how many defenders there were here - i was disappointed to see how shallow their arguments were - i think it's a bit of a public service to let them have the stage once in awhile and let people see how badly they answer objections

that being said, more than once a year is too much
posted by pyramid termite at 6:29 PM on November 19, 2007

i think it's a bit of a public service to let them have the stage once in awhile and let people see how badly they answer objections

The problem is that the objections are so poorly presented that everyone looks bad in those threads, regardless of what your values are. The racists look bad because their posts are peppered with logical fallacies and nearly incoherent, but the egalitarians also look bad because their posts are peppered with logical fallacies and nearly incoherent.

This is before the whole thing devolves into a screaming match.

The thread should be deleted because there are certain topics that the community just isn't mature enough to talk about. I'm sure there are some great refutations of racism in that thread, but they're lost in a sea of well-meaning but furious and disjointed responses.

Posters with noxious views are like allergens. They never exist in numbers sufficient to do any harm by themselves; it's the body Metafilter's response that makes them so disruptive.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 7:16 PM on November 19, 2007

Bigger hard drives?

That Mac is one bad mutha - SHUT YO MOUTH!

I'm just talkin' bout Mac!
posted by lazaruslong at 7:21 PM on November 19, 2007

The thread should be deleted because there are certain topics that the community just isn't mature enough to talk about. I'm sure there are some great refutations of racism pedophillia in that thread, but they're lost in a sea of well-meaning but furious and disjointed responses.

You know what I like about you, Steve? Your willingness to cut every racist molester one a little slack.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:31 PM on November 19, 2007

36. Williamsburg
37. Hipsters
posted by jason's_planet at 8:24 PM on November 19, 2007

You know what I like about you, Steve? Your willingness to cut every racist molester one a little slack.

Thank you, friend.

I read a story about a young girl, recently, who had been slowly tortured to death over the course of days or even weeks by a woman who was supposed to be her caretaker. The woman starved the girl, burnt her, and carved obscenities into her body with a blade. The woman encouraged neighbor children to come over and do the same, and they did!

Reading this upset me. It made me angry. I wanted to hurt the woman, just as she had hurt the little girl. I wanted to kill her.

But to what end? No wrath could ever bring back the dead girl, or redeem her suffering, or any way make right what happened. Destroying this monster would only heap misery or misery.

What is a monster? I am too acutely aware of the multitude of accidents that created me, and I cannot find it in myself to condemn someone less lucky than I am, someone treated less kindly by an uncaring universe that runs on chance.

What if we could rehabilitate this woman, though? What if, somehow, we could rehabilitate everyone? But then our whole utopia would be built on the forgotten suffering of that little girl. How can we possibly tell her that she suffered alone and died for our harmony?

I don't know the answer to any of the questions I asked. I guess I just feel better about myself when I try to cut people some slack. Even bad people.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 8:28 PM on November 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

Stay classy, Steve.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:12 PM on November 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Someone's been reading too much Thich Nhat Hahn.
posted by tkolar at 12:15 AM on November 20, 2007

tkolar: I don't get it. Wikipedia says Thich Nhat Hahn is a nice guy, a monk, likes peace, what's wrong with that?
posted by philomathoholic at 1:01 AM on November 20, 2007

(Ahem. That's Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America, kittens. Thankyouverymuch.)

philo, unless I miss my guess, the idea is that forgiveness and compassion don't make you bulletproof.
posted by lodurr at 3:44 AM on November 20, 2007

Seriously?

That thread is classic, but not in a good way.
posted by chunking express at 7:31 AM on November 20, 2007

and almost everything to do with a social situation in which one race is more socially/economically/politically powerful than another

Wouldn't that be "class."

Exactly, tk, but more generally it's a constructed division between people. These dimensions (class, race, gender) are-- perhaps inevitably and forever-- intertwined, and not neatly.
posted by Rykey at 8:38 AM on November 20, 2007

Probably unread dregs of a thread comment!

Not everyone who wishes to take part in Race and Intelligence threads - but not in the amen corner of "we must never, ever discuss this" - is necessarily of sinister agenda.

Once the first wave of disgust about Watson's comments had abated in the UK, there were legitimate press editorials decrying the decision of the Science Museum - and others - for banning Watson from speaking. Scientific institutions, it was argued, do themselves no favors when flinching from science-meets-ethics debates.

Debate is not research. It is not pushing witless, bogus science into classrooms. It is not giving relief to the enemy.

I accept these discussions go badly, though.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:56 AM on November 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

tkolar: I don't get it. Wikipedia says Thich Nhat Hahn is a nice guy, a monk, likes peace, what's wrong with that?

Peace, compassion, and perspective have no place in a MetaTalk thread.
posted by tkolar at 9:23 AM on November 20, 2007

I hear that, Jody. And, heh, there are no unread dregs with you've got the Recent Activity tab.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:44 AM on November 20, 2007

...forgiveness and compassion don't make you bulletproof.

Peace, compassion, and perspective have no place in a MetaTalk thread.

Dude can't even make an innocuous comment without getting some sort of ridicule?!
posted by philomathoholic at 1:16 PM on November 20, 2007

So vdare is totally cool then? I'm not sure we got an answer one way or another.

Maybe I haven't done a good job of explaining why vdare sucks, so here is a quote from the article that was linked:

So as part of my 14-year-old daughter's public education, she is to be exposed to the details of a venereal disease propagated mainly by promiscuous homosexuals and revolting Third World customs, and she will be encouraged to believe that this is a matter of general public concern, relevant to her life and personal development.

I can't believe I read that article. Fuck. I did it for your edification MetaFilter.
posted by chunking express at 10:35 AM on November 21, 2007

chunking express, did you not know that every person is an island, sufficient unto him/herself?
posted by lodurr at 10:43 AM on November 21, 2007

I'm not sure many people would advance the idea that it's 'totally cool'. I think the takeaway is that links in comments to controversial sites aren't 100% definitely going to be deleted.

On the other hand, if cousincozen comes back and goes on a vdare linkin' spree, that's another thing entirely.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:46 AM on November 21, 2007

That's cool. I find vdare particularly obnoxious because all the "i'm not racist I just think blacks have it so good" use it like it was an encyclopedia when they post junk online. It's all, "I have nothing of substance to say, but this article by Steve Sailer said this." Anyway, I may find it obnoxious, but I'm sure lots of people aren't particularly bother by it.
posted by chunking express at 10:58 AM on November 21, 2007

VICTORY!
posted by shmegegge at 12:03 PM on November 21, 2007

cousin, you're done here. enough with the race issue

Well, like they say: You can choose your friends, but you can't choose your family.

Unless you adopt. Apologies to Merchant.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:10 PM on November 21, 2007

Jesus wept.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:13 PM on November 21, 2007

I would like to thank cousincozon for being so damn predictable.
posted by chunking express at 12:21 PM on November 21, 2007

I figured he would get banned for that, but after that last thread stayed open, I wasn't sure, and missed a great snarking opportunity :(
posted by delmoi at 2:35 PM on November 21, 2007

> VICTORY!

All power to the people! If it weren't for that racist oppressor Smith, they could have had Robert Mugabe fifteen years earlier.
posted by jfuller at 5:34 PM on November 21, 2007

If it weren't for that racist oppressor Smith, they could have had Robert Mugabe fifteen years earlier.

becausel, you know, it's utterly impossible that a sane, decent person could be elected to run the country, right?

things have gone very wrong in zimbabwe - but under white government they were very wrong, also

there were other choices available - let's hope the zimbabwean people can find one
posted by pyramid termite at 5:47 PM on November 21, 2007