Boooooooooobs. | MetaTalk

Hey, you know how I'm apparently your friendly neighborhood irrational/uptight/bitchy feminist? Well, my Batsignal is going off. 'Cause I'm bitchy/uptight/irrational/out to ruin your fun. And I don't like conversations that are all about the hilarious inevitability of adults ogling some lady's rack.

I'm not a guy. I'm willing to accept that it is, in some mysterious way I don't fully understand, more difficult for a man not to look at boobs than it is for women not to look at boobs. Sure.

And I can also grasp that some men, for whatever reason, have had a harder time than others internalizing the "Hey man! Her EYES, look at her EYES." thing, and are asking for tips. Fine.

But I can't really get behind the back-patting, boys will be boys, check out my awesome new term for "breasts", women are for staring at LOL AMIRITE! stuff developing in that thread.

Cranky joking aside, I'm not actually out to ruin the good time of a bunch of dudes going "Yes, I know exactly what you mean, and here's how I've dealt with it..." - but the tenor of some of these comments is edging into essentially making cracks about sexual harassment. Okay, I'm supposed to flag and move on, right? But, say, this 29 person's comment: Anyways, you cannot look into a woman's eyes as if she were a man. That is just preposterous. Looking at a co-worker's dairy pillows is perfectly fine as long as you're not staring like a crazed pervert. Don't make it obvious, either. And it might be a good idea to not moan or touch yourself at the same time. Also, keep from talking about the juggs.

That comment makes me super uncomfortable, but there are unfortunately a number of much less egregious comments that (without the retarded har-har-har hyperbole, of course!) say essentially the same thing ("You can't help it! Just don't do it when she's looking and stuff.")

I am not casting some net of blame over the male denizens of AskMe when I say this: getting ogled by colleagues is a real and unpleasant part of the day of many female workers. And it's not all that hilarious when it happens to you. And holy shit guys, I'm a modest dresser, but I have big boobs, and if I ever bent over in front of a guy and he said "Hahaha, your boobs, they distract me!", my blush wouldn't be a charmed "Oh, that's awkward, but I'm glad he said something!" kind of blush, it would be the "Should I burst into humiliated tears now or later?" kind.

I just don't know, folks. Haven't most workers had some lame training at some point that gives you tips about this? Is this really still a conversation we're having in such an unenlightened way?

posted by thehmsbeagle to etiquette/policy at 3:30 PM (775 comments total) 28 users marked this as a favorite

I think I was deleting some stuff from that thread (see your now-dead "women are for staring" link, for example) while you were composing this, thehmsbeagle. There were a few comments that were pretty much useless in their jokiness, and 29 was pretty much batting a thousand on that front.
posted by cortex at 3:36 PM on January 23

I almost posted this thread, fwiw.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:38 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

You can't help it! Just don't do it when she's looking and stuff."

Yea, that attitude bugs me a lot, too.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:38 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

And it might be a good idea to not moan or touch yourself at the same time.

Damn, is that what I've been doing wrong?
posted by IronLizard at 3:42 PM on January 23

Yeah, I was struck by the guy who drew the conclusion that boobs he couldn't help staring at belonged to women he didn't know he was in love with. My god, there's been a lot of unrequited love following me around, and I didn't even know!!
posted by b33j at 3:43 PM on January 23

Ah, thanks/sorry, Cortex: I took a while to compose this to downgrade my irritation out of the ranty stratosphere.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 3:44 PM on January 23

Is this really still a conversation we're having in such an unenlightened way?

Is this really still a conversation we're having in such a perspective-less, humor-less way?

Must we wring our hands about this? Won't anyone think of the children?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:49 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

Yes, says the dude who gives this advice in-thread:

And whenever you get a good, (safe!), free shot at 'em, go ahead and GAWK at the snuggle-puppies. Just visually devour those sweater-stuffers. Get it out of your system. Familiarity breeds indifference.

I feel secure that your perspective and sense of humor are ones I don't need to emulate.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 3:50 PM on January 23 [22 favorites]

What's your perspective, Cool Papa Bell? Feel free to enlighten us uptight, humorless bitches.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:51 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

It's ironic you would make a call-out here since your "Don't do that because it's rude!" answer is hardly going to help someone who's asking "How do I stop doing this thing that I know to be rude?"
posted by 0xFCAF at 3:51 PM on January 23 [13 favorites]

And I don't like conversations that are all about...

Are you required to like every conversation on AskMe?
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 3:54 PM on January 23 [5 favorites]

~~MINDCRIME~~ SEXISM ALERT.
posted by Krrrlson at 4:00 PM on January 23 [5 favorites]

And whenever you get a good, (safe!), free shot at 'em, go ahead and GAWK at the snuggle-puppies. Just visually devour those sweater-stuffers. Get it out of your system. Familiarity breeds indifference.

Funniest fucking thing I've read all day.
posted by eyeballkid at 4:00 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

The Metatalk thought-police squad, emboldened by their recent triumphs over the evils of death-thread snarkiness and displays of ambivalent hipsterism, turn their attention to a new scourge -- this one more sinister, more insidious and entrenched than any they've faced thus far... but they will not be dissuaded! Non-conformity is not an option!
posted by Dave Faris at 4:01 PM on January 23 [11 favorites]

I can avoid looking at them, but sometimes I feel them looking at me. They follow me around the room.
posted by RussHy at 4:02 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

Good callout, as the jokiness of the thread was out of place given the context: sexual harassment.

Avoiding ogling women at work (or at the beach, etc) is something that can be learned. It *is* possible. Obviously, both men *and* women use the attractiveness of their bodies (if they are attractive) to signal and communicate different things. If you look good in a tight sweater, why not wear it?

But I doubt anyone sane, professional person wants to be ogled all the time. "Visually devouring those sweater-stuffers" is a creepy, inappropriate response for AskMe.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:03 PM on January 23 [8 favorites]

posted by RussHy I can avoid looking at them, but sometimes I feel them looking at me. They follow me around the room.

Eyes, or breasts?
posted by fandango_matt at 4:04 PM on January 23

God, my three bosses are all women, all with d-cup breasts, and one with a penchant for dressing in quasi-inappropriate clothing, and yet I manage to be professional. How fucking hard can it be for people who don't have tits around them all the fucking time? Is it just that my job requires that I actually listen to what the women around me are saying? Is that why I don't stare endlessly at their breasts?
posted by klangklangston at 4:05 PM on January 23 [26 favorites]

I just don't feel any need to oogle breasts now that the internet has been created.
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:06 PM on January 23 [5 favorites]

God, I haven't seen a thread that has made me despise so many men on mefi in a while.

Well done boys, you truly are "nice guys".
posted by hugsnkisses at 4:08 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

In stereotypical terms, it's like a woman on her period looking at a mound of the finest, freshly made chocolate. You can't help but be drawn to it.

What. The. Fuck.
posted by liquorice at 4:10 PM on January 23 [34 favorites]

Familiarity breeds indifference.

Now that you mention it, breasts are really rare and you hardly ever see them anywhere. The chronic-starer must have seen breasts only a handful of times before, thus his being mesmerized (mammorized?). Women, take comfort in the obvious truth of this. The upcoming generation that's had easy access to porn, Hooters, and Cinemax since prepubescence will be completely oblivious to breasts forever.

I also hear that a good way to ensure that one won't die from a snakebite is to regularly drink venom. Preferably with bloody, post-flossing, gums.

Beware of Wet Floor and Dripping Sarcasm
posted by CKmtl at 4:10 PM on January 23 [4 favorites]

Way to stereotype, hugsnkisses. Good on you for fighting against sexism by engaging in some of your own!
posted by Justinian at 4:11 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

"Visually devouring those sweater-stuffers" is a creepy, inappropriate response for AskMe.

My understanding is that the only inappropriate response for AskMe is one that doesn't answer the question. It may be creepy but it's the setup for the answer: "Familiarity breeds indifference." The reader's comfort with the answer is irrelevant.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 4:11 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

Oddly, when you preface your statement by acknowledging your presumed irrationality/bitchiness and saying that you're not out to ruin anyone's good time or hate on men, you weaken your point tenfold. Just. Say. It. Have the conviction to say plainly, without trepidation, without qualification: "This is sexist language and I don't think it belongs in MeFi-land."
posted by desjardins at 4:11 PM on January 23 [27 favorites]

Even after all the pruning there is a lot of dead wood, as it were, in that thread.

Honestly, the answer to "how do I not stare like a pervert?" is "don't stare like a pervert." Sometimes you make eye-contact, sometimes you turn your head and look out the window, and sometimes you look at something on your desk. What you don't do is fixate on her cleavage. You don't do it by not doing it -- it is honestly that simple, just like you don't pick your nose while giving a presentation and you don't grab the bus driver's ass and you don't spit in the soup.

So yeah, the stupid jokes and heh-heh-heh tone of GAWK at the snuggle-puppies wears pretty thin, pretty fast. And the knee-jerk reply of complaining about humorless PC-ists isn't really all that impressive, either.
posted by Forktine at 4:14 PM on January 23 [10 favorites]

Uh... let me just chime in that not only are these types of comments cringeworthy and an embarrassment but also completely useless as answers.
posted by Kattullus at 4:14 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

What's interesting to me is that after I got married other women lost all appeal. Seriously, it's like they're another species or something. Must've been the long drawn out ceremonies in my 4 day Asian wedding that made any woman besides my wife instinctually unsexual to me. Is that usual? Wrong site to post that question?
posted by Burhanistan at 4:15 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

No. I feel the same way about your wife.
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:16 PM on January 23 [41 favorites]

Darling Justinian, do feel free to point out the sexism in my statement.
posted by hugsnkisses at 4:16 PM on January 23

posted by Forktine Honestly, the answer to "how do I not stare like a pervert?" is "don't stare like a pervert."

However, staring like a concerned citizen is perfectly acceptable.
posted by fandango_matt at 4:16 PM on January 23

You know what? It's reaching the point with you, thehmsbeagle, where I'm beginning not to care what you're saying, even when you have a valid point (and make no mistake, you have a very valid point here with those crappy comments.)

However, in that thread, you're pulling the same shit you'd probably bitch about if it was woman asking a question about something female related and a guy chimed with the kind of dismissive, condensing comment that you made. That's fine, you have certain thoughts, you want to express them, go for it. But, IMO, it really hurts your credibility because overall (not in this specific instance) it doesn't seem as though you practice what you preach.

This feels like it isn't the first time this has happened either, hence my growing ambivalence over your statements.

I get the sense you and ThePinkSuperhero are pretty equally fed up with the boyzone around here, yet I thought her first comment in the thread was a perfect example of a great AskMe comment, in that it answered the question succinctly without demeaning a person. Maybe she thinks the guy is a complete pig who shouldn't be allowed near women or maybe not. The point is no one knows, because she stuck to answering the damn question without feeling the need to inject some shitty comment.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:17 PM on January 23 [23 favorites]

Occasionally I see a guy at the gym unabashedly staring at a woman working out in shorts and a sports bra. But staring is not the norm even in that environment. Just thought I would mention that.
posted by MLIS at 4:17 PM on January 23

It may be creepy but it's the setup for the answer: "Familiarity breeds indifference."

The setup for a completely inane answer, to be precise.
posted by CKmtl at 4:19 PM on January 23

Brandon_Blatcher: I'm not sure what response you expect from me. I've previously realized that you feel really ambivalent about me, and that's fine. TPS and I have very different styles of speaking (well, writing), and I'm fine with that, too. You may not be. But that's not something for me to take care of.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 4:19 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

/me enters thread (from the bottom).
posted by 31d1 at 4:20 PM on January 23

Sure, CKmtl. But not inappropriate....yet.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 4:20 PM on January 23

Good on you for fighting against sexism by engaging in some of your own!

Superb nonsensical derail, thx for that J.
posted by MLIS at 4:22 PM on January 23

Meanwhile, the sexism flag is feeling lonely and unappreciated.
posted by Burhanistan at 4:22 PM on January 23

^-- "Fixating" is not staring like a pervert. A sexist question (predicated on differences in gender and gender-specific interactions) is going to produce variably sexist answers. So long as a thread like that is allowed, what do you expect. Really, what did the POSTER expect? A lesson on how to interact like a human? His real issue is probably feeling uncomfortable looking someone in the eye, not a tendency to look at cleavage.
posted by rob paxon at 4:22 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

I'm looking forward to the "I fail to see how this is a question for the ages"-flag.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 4:23 PM on January 23 [4 favorites]

The real crime here is that there is yet another problem that I didn't think I had, that I am now neurotic about.
posted by geoff. at 4:24 PM on January 23 [16 favorites]

However, staring like a concerned citizen is perfectly acceptable.

*forms Concerned Citizens for Breast Study and Conservation PAC*
posted by Krrrlson at 4:26 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

What's your perspective, Cool Papa Bell? Feel free to enlighten us uptight, humorless bitches.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero

He didn't call you bitches. Please don't imply that he did. Bad form.
posted by sourwookie at 4:28 PM on January 23 [9 favorites]

Thanks for posting this and fuckin' A.
Creepy. A question broadly framed as "I just can't stop - eh fellas?" is kind of asking for the answer to be "That's normal and there's really nothing you can do; we men are helpless before the imperatives of evolution and are cursed to ogle." But really, no.

Look, if there's a lot of cleavage on display, I think most people -- women included -- are going to look -- and then quickly find some way to look away. So the answer is, "find some way to look away - eyes, computer screen, stand up, etc."

The answer isn't, "boobies, they are definitely entertaining to look at." We are all drowning in that idea every day -- it's not a surprising or useful thing to say, it's not original or funny, it's just lame.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:28 PM on January 23 [18 favorites]

Sure, CKmtl. But not inappropriate....yet.

Well, actually. Yes, it is. The question is "How do you avoid looking down cleavage?". CPB's pseudoanswer is "You avoid looking down cleavage by... looking down cleavage! If you look down enough cleavage, you won't need to look down cleavage!" It's not really answering the question or providing the advice that the asker is asking for.

The "Familiarity breeds indifference" thing seems more like a folksy faux-wisdom thing tacked on to make the inane stuff seem like an answer.
posted by CKmtl at 4:34 PM on January 23

And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.
posted by "Tex" Connor and the Wily Roundup Boys at 4:34 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

I can't stop looking at the title of this thread.
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:35 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

The title of this thread makes the argument a little ironic.
posted by Effigy2000 at 4:38 PM on January 23

posted by Krrrlson *forms Concerned Citizens for Breast Study and Conservation PAC*

Yeah, that's what we need. Another group of citizens to make mountains out of molehills.
posted by fandango_matt at 4:40 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

LobsterMittien, implying that someone must rush to "find" some way to look away is pretty childish and silly. "Boobies, they are definitely entertaining to look at" is as valid a thought as "I MUST LOOK AWAY QUICKLY". Neither is a particularly reasonable thought process for a rational, comfortable person in that situation. Neither is useful as an answer to the question... he said quickly looking away makes him feel as comfortable. Neither thought is surprising, useful, or original. At least the phrasing of some of the latter schools of thought were amusing.
posted by rob paxon at 4:41 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

I think rob paxon's comment here is probably correct, that the poster might not realize it's more of an issue with eye contact than breasts specifically.

But I think it's odd to expect any conversation about breasts on the internet to be completely dry and serious. There's a difference between the ideal and the realistic. Heck I was enjoying the comments, and I am female. It seems disturbing to me that people find all comments automatically serious and predatory. It reminds me of the "all men are potential rapists" attitude of some people.
posted by veronitron at 4:41 PM on January 23 [17 favorites]

If you look good in a tight sweater, why not wear it?

But I doubt anyone sane, professional person wants to be ogled all the time

Someone dresses in a way that makes them look 'good'. So in a manner that appeals to the people that find them attractive on a purely aesthetic level. So if you dress in a way that will make people want to look at you, then don't be completely surprised if people do look at you. It's only an issue if the looking becomes staring - when it becomes "all the time". Although not, in this case, stated as strongly as I have seen it in the past, the prevalent attitude of women in workplaces of "I want to dress attractively, but anyone that looks at me with anything other than professional thoughts is a SICK PERVERT" gets tiring. Everyone (everyone) looks at each other, but the result of past sexism makes men looking at women in the workplace subject to some sort of super scrutiny and jumping up and down (although not with revealing tops, usually. That'd be unprofessional).

The 'looking at breasts' thing is very specific. The attraction to look at breasts is primal and a taboo, and some people cope with it better than others. It's a deep set taboo in nearly all cultures, so it will usually trigger some sort of reaction. The knowledge that it is a taboo, and frequently drummed in as unprofessional and stereotypical, makes men overly paranoid about it, and they flap when they even do it accidentally. It gets blown out of proportion (like here) by both sides. The man panics about keeping his eyes on her face because he is aware of the concept of making women uncomfortable (where, for example, reading a man's shirt label would be perfectly acceptable), and his panic to appear professional is interpreted as being shifty and the woman wonders if he is trying to look down her top. It's a vicious circle the second it occurs to either one that they might look down her front.

The OP was trying to avoid that as it is unprofessional. Which is fair enough.

But. The woman in question is bending over the desk in a manner that exposes herself in a way that he finds uncomfortable - how he words that level of discomfort is that 'it makes me want to look, and leaves me flustered'. This is pretty common. It is not necessarily a conscious "LOL, I can see her puppies", but sometimes your eyes are drawn to things - sharp movements, bright lights, fast moving objects, clothing falling open. The fact that, when this woman leans over his desk, his eyes are drawn to the first thing that moves at eye height is hardly unnatural. At least some of the issue here is with a woman that doesn't realise that leaning over someone sitting at a desk is not a professionally neutral act - Just as much as a man doesn't stand right next to a woman at her desk with his groin right next to her head, so the woman needs to understand that leaning over a desk (on a regular basis, don't forget) is not appropriate. Accidental is one thing, but no woman would stand for the equivalent - I bet people can't help when the guy's nuts drop out of his shorts on the subway when he sits down, but if it happened at work every day, they'd soon pipe up and complain.

The issue here, is that the OP thinks it is solely his issue and is beating himself up about it. He should be asking the woman not to lean over his desk like that, but to do so raises the possibility of 'he may have seen her tits' which has been roundly condemned as an option here and in that thread. Fuck, what's the guy to do? He can't ask her to stop (according to some of the women here), yet he has something that has been drilled into him as NOT TO BE STARED AT at eye level. It's hard NOT to look in enough of a direction for him to hit the paranoia level - he'll feel limited to a tiny scope of visual acceptability and that creates tension and pressure as the cost of failure is being accused of being a pervert. The fact that he has to concentrate on her face to make sure he doesn't look down her top just says that she needs to sit the fuck down, to me.

Now, I am of course saying that staring at women's tits instead of talking to them (Er, the women) is bad, but to assume it is all the guy's fault is horseshit. Both parties have a responsibility to be aware of how they present themselves.
posted by Brockles at 4:43 PM on January 23 [71 favorites]

I'm willing to accept that it is, in some mysterious way I don't fully understand, more difficult for a man not to look at boobs than it is for women not to look at boobs.

Well, women's (straight women's anyway) appreciation of boobs is aesthetic. Straight men's boob appreciation is visceral. One is 'wow her breasts are nice,' the other is a primitive lizard brain saying 'I'd like to get my hands on those!' It's really not that mysterious. Not that it makes leering or staring OK, but I just wanted to demystify that for you.

As to why women don't check out male body parts as much, my theory is this: women aren't as into us as we are into them.

and if I ever bent over in front of a guy and he said "Hahaha, your boobs, they distract me!", my blush wouldn't be a charmed "Oh, that's awkward, but I'm glad he said something!" kind of blush, it would be the "Should I burst into humiliated tears now or later?" kind.

The best course of action in that instance would be to bend in closer and when he's suitably distracted, steal his wallet.
posted by jonmc at 4:44 PM on January 23 [9 favorites]

The true duality of man: each a potential rapist and rape victim.
posted by rob paxon at 4:44 PM on January 23

I'm not sure what response you expect from me.

Wasn't expecting a particular response, but I was hoping you'd buy me a Macbook Air for the sheer brilliance of my words (with the solid state drive too!).

But that's probably not gonna happen, so think about it or ignore it, the choice is up to you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:46 PM on January 23

This is some serious bullshit and I can't believe any men are trying to defend it. If there was a AskMe about "how do I avoid staring at dudes' packages at work when they're standing in front of me while I'm sitting" then would you get it? No, probably not. And to whine that thehmsbeagle doesn't have any humor? Staring inappropriately at a woman's cleavage in the workplace - not particularly a funny subject, sorry. The next logical step from, 'I'm a man, I can't control my eyes" is "I'm a man, I can't control my hands." Well, you don't seem to have a problem keeping your hands off 'em so I bet you have enough self-control to keep your eyes off 'em as well.

Anytime any female around here brings up any subject/question she finds objectionable, the guys flock from miles around to throw down the you're an uptight feminist gauntlet. Maybe instead of always dismissing us and saying we're overreacting, you should take a step back and realize that if one woman said it, chances are a lot of the rest of us were thinking it but didn't feel like taking the flack for it.
posted by CwgrlUp at 4:46 PM on January 23 [29 favorites]

Brockles comment there is the best thing I've read here or on the AskMe.
posted by rob paxon at 4:47 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

How do you avoid staring at cleavage?

I'm not telling you, I'm telling everybody.

Fucking look away, son.
posted by Divine_Wino at 4:48 PM on January 23 [8 favorites]

Also, I think that suggesting the guy stands up when the woman is making him feel uncomfortable is entirely fucked up. Why should HE move? He has to stand up because she can't realise she is placing her chest in front of his face?

Come on. Stand appropriately. That's like saying it when Captain Beefcrotch walks up to a woman and stands (as I said) fully upright and two inches from the woman's chair to talk to her, it is up to her to turn and face the other way or get up and walk around the desk. That's not the answer. It is up to him to stop sticking his cock in her face, not for her to move. It's the same damn thing.

Parity in gender-related office politics? Not a hope.
posted by Brockles at 4:50 PM on January 23 [12 favorites]

Brockles comment there is the best thing I've read here or on the AskMe.

Just what I was going to say.
posted by missmagenta at 4:51 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

There were obviously some crap comments in that thread before pruning, and some stuff still floating around in there that isn't great either. thehmsbeagle, you aren't being uptight about this; it needed to be called out and I'm glad you did it.
posted by never used baby shoes at 4:52 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

I'm firmly of the belief that I wouldn't trust any man who doesn't have a good relationship with a feminist sister or two of his, or a family member the general community might regard as "hawt".

I wouldn't trust them with my sisters, my non-existent daughter, heck, any of my friends that are women.

As a man, until you've experienced a truly non-sexual relationship with a person who you could never be sexual with (though if extenuating circumstances weren't as such, you might want to be), I'm not sure that you could ever treat women with the proper NON-SEXUAL respect, attention, and admiration they desire.

These relationships, over long periods of time, hopefully cure men of the boob-staring referenced in this thread. Maybe sometimes not. I guess I'm lucky to have many very important women in my life who I could never treat as such, and I tend to extend my experiences with them when interacting with women who I would have an interest in.
posted by localhuman at 4:53 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

Brockles comment there is the best thing I've read here or on the AskMe.

Indeed. Bravo.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:53 PM on January 23

"Anytime any female around here brings up any subject/question she finds objectionable, the guys flock from miles around to throw down the you're an uptight feminist gauntlet."

Like that sentence can't be completely flipped around. Give the world a break from polarization, please.

"If there was a AskMe about "how do I avoid staring at dudes' packages at work when they're standing in front of me while I'm sitting" then would you get it?"

Get what? Your need to see past the question and find the perverted male subtext within?

"The next logical step from, 'I'm a man, I can't control my eyes" is "I'm a man, I can't control my hands.""

The next logical step from "Looking at something is alright" isn't "touching something is alright", and therefore that analogy was as useless as it was intentionally inflammatory. Unbelievable. The original poster is the one who is made sexually uncomfortable here, not the woman. The woman is causing it. That doesn't make her inappropriate but it doesn't make the guy looking (and trying to politely avoid looking) inappropriate either. If I walked around with my dick hanging out of your pants and you posted a question asking how to avoid looking at my swinging dick, would men accuse you of being sexist?
posted by rob paxon at 4:54 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

Brockles comment there is the best thing I've read here or on the AskMe.

I thought it was overthinking a...um...er....?
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:54 PM on January 23

hanging out of my pants* of course
posted by rob paxon at 4:55 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

No, no, Ubu. It was genius. Stark, unfettered genius.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 4:56 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

Moments like these are when I'm really glad I'm an ass man.
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:57 PM on January 23 [14 favorites]

Being a scat man myself, every moment makes me glad... BE BOP DA WOP DE BOO BOP DOP
posted by rob paxon at 4:58 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

nthd on Brockles comment being the most sensible in the thread at this point.
posted by eyeballkid at 5:03 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

Localhuman, please provide me with infos on how to acquire my own female trainer who will turn me from the perverted scum I was born as into someone worthy of being around your sister.
posted by rob paxon at 5:04 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

Is that a fedora? I hear ladies really like that, so one should be along pronto.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 5:05 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

Sophia meets Jayne
posted by hortense at 5:07 PM on January 23 [6 favorites]

I also don't trust men with my non-existent daughter.
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:07 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

I'll ask it again because it wasn't answered ... Must we wring our hands about this?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:08 PM on January 23

She (the co-worker) might indeed be acting or dressing inappropriately. Unless it's bad enough (ie part of a pattern of harrassing behavior from her) that he feels he can go to a supervisor about it, all he can control is how he reacts.
1. Look elsewhere
2. Change posture (eg stand up), if it's possible to do that naturally in the space
3. Possibly mention it, depending very much on what he knows about the co-worker and his own verbal tact

Some combination of 1 and 2 is often enough to get a message across. (I'm having to make a point of not looking down your shirt; maybe next time, close one more button.) The explicit mention would be a nuclear option in a lot of working relationships.

Further:
As Brockles says, it's a problem that a person could have in good faith, and it's a tricky one because once you're aware of it, you're more self-conscious and uncomfortable and it's harder to know what to do with your eyes. Men aren't all assholes, this isn't a problem that only assholes have, etc. No generalized man-hate here. Only a complaint about the lame-o knockers jokes that thread had in it.
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:08 PM on January 23 [6 favorites]

As to why women don't check out male body parts as much, my theory is this: women aren't as into us as we are into them.

Well, they certainly aren't as interested in me as I am in them.
posted by timeistight at 5:09 PM on January 23

As a man, until you've experienced a truly non-sexual relationship with a person who you could never be sexual with (though if extenuating circumstances weren't as such, you might want to be), I'm not sure that you could ever treat women with the proper NON-SEXUAL respect, attention, and admiration they desire.

Hi! I'm a man without any hot sisters or cousins, and you can trust your sister with me. I can guarantee you I won't drool on her dress nor try to cop a feel, and that I'll non-sexually respect her and have her home by 10pm. Cross my heart.

Do you have a cute brother though?
posted by CKmtl at 5:12 PM on January 23 [8 favorites]

As to why women don't check out male body parts as much

I can't speak for other women, but I think we just don't yap about it as much.
posted by desjardins at 5:12 PM on January 23 [4 favorites]

Someone dresses in a way that makes them look 'good'. So in a manner that appeals to the people that find them attractive on a purely aesthetic level. So if you dress in a way that will make people want to look at you, then don't be completely surprised if people do look at you.

I think this is off base a bit. Some women are hot regardless of what they are wearing, and, to speak for myself, my power of imagination works just as well for hot woman wearing 3 winter coats versus hot women showing their cleavage.

There are many professional women who do use their sexual appeal to enhance their careers, but the vast majority of them don't. Near all of them are ogled, and I think that's what thehmsbeagle is trying to get at.
posted by localhuman at 5:13 PM on January 23

I'll ask it again because it wasn't answered ... Must we wring our hands about this?

If you're really holding your breath on this one, here:

No. But that doesn't mean we can't have a conversation about it, so maybe you should consider either toning down the polarizing snipery or not participating. If all you can see is handwringing while everybody else is seeing a discussion, you may not be coming at this thread from a very open-minded perspective.
posted by cortex at 5:13 PM on January 23 [6 favorites]

"So if you dress in a way that will make people want to look at you, then don't be completely surprised if people do look at you. It's only an issue if the looking becomes staring - when it becomes "all the time". Although not, in this case, stated as strongly as I have seen it in the past, the prevalent attitude of women in workplaces of "I want to dress attractively, but anyone that looks at me with anything other than professional thoughts is a SICK PERVERT" gets tiring. Everyone (everyone) looks at each other, but the result of past sexism makes men looking at women in the workplace subject to some sort of super scrutiny and jumping up and down (although not with revealing tops, usually. That'd be unprofessional)."

Hi, I'm THE MALE GAZE, and I have about SIX MILLION ARTICLES written about me, especially in conjunction with institutionalized sexism. Before you go off pontificating on what women are trying to accomplish with the way they dress, or how they want to be looked at, or what their reactions to staring at them are, we should probably get acquainted.
posted by klangklangston at 5:13 PM on January 23 [43 favorites]

rob paxon - you say it's childish and silly to suggest that someone should "find a way to look away".

I'm not sure why you say that. I only meant to be making explicit some of our normal socializing behaviors. I didn't mean "look away in fear, lest you be burned", I meant, even though your eyes might want to linger, choose to look at something else. That's how you stop looking at things you're socially prohibited from looking at. Look at something else, via an exercise of your will.

I think you're probably right that the original asker may have more-than-usual discomfort with maintaining eye contact.
posted by LobsterMitten at 5:14 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

CwgrlUp: Maybe instead of always dismissing us and saying we're overreacting, you should take a step back and realize that if one woman said it, chances are a lot of the rest of us were thinking it but didn't feel like taking the flack for it.

I'd like to register my agreement with CwgrlUp, ThePinkSuperhero, and thehmsbeagle, and any other ladies taking objection to the thread in question. I objected in the thread too, but of course, I was Totally Wrong and Dismissive about it by saying what seemed obvious: the way to NOT stare at something is to avert one's eyes.

I really, really want to give respect to you, thehmsbeagle, and all the other women who start these threads when the need exists, because truthfully? I do not have the nerve to do it and face the flak.
posted by loiseau at 5:14 PM on January 23 [28 favorites]

"Moments like these are when I'm really glad I'm an ass man."

That's a shame—the secret menu at Taco Bell is pretty fucking awesome.
posted by klangklangston at 5:15 PM on January 23 [6 favorites]

And HUGE props to KlangKlangston and the other men who get where we're coming from. I marry you all.
posted by loiseau at 5:15 PM on January 23 [4 favorites]

It's not so much that she would be dressing or acting "inappropriately" as it is a matter where no one is being inappropriate, and it's only inappropriate if he were to pervertedly ogle (or on her end if she walked around with nothing but a bra). However, the issue is that someone's being made uncomfortable here and her dress and posturing is the most immediate cause. Ironically, his discomfort is probably, as Brockles says, out of concern of making her uncomfortable or otherwise think he's a creep. I think the best solution for him, generally, is to learn to be comfortable when his eyes catch cleavage and also be comfortable when he moves his eyes away from said cleavage. His discomfort is going to be the only thing here that makes her uncomfortable, save actual over ogling of the breasts which is obviously inappropriate in this setting. That isn't saying "boobs are awesome stare away" as is seemingly perceived by some.

thehmsbeagle, what's your motivation with the needling there? Whatever that was supposed to imply ("one will be along shortly"), it brings a mental image of a fish flopping around on the beach.
posted by rob paxon at 5:18 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

Sophia meets Jayne

*jaw drops to floor, shatters into a million pieces*

How uh I mean what er dress I think woah I uhm a bit warm in whoo... I don't think, err... damn!

*stumbles to floor picking up pieces of jaw, trips, knocks over dessert cart*

Yup, pretty damn sure I'm not gay.
posted by loquacious at 5:22 PM on January 23

Hi, I'm THE MALE GAZE, and I have about SIX MILLION ARTICLES written about me, especially in conjunction with institutionalized sexism.

Six million articles that nobody wants to read because there's porn around instead. Look were all corpses in training folks. Drink a lot, fuck a lot and try everything on the menu. Everything else is petty squabbles.
posted by jonmc at 5:22 PM on January 23 [4 favorites]

If I walked around with my dick hanging out of your pants...

You're right, we would have a definite problem.

Like that sentence can't be completely flipped around. Give the world a break from polarization, please.

Really? Now I haven't been around forever like some, but I'm pretty sure I have yet to see a MeTa about a guy complaining over girlzone or being creeped out by snugglepuppies comments or getting your parts ogled.

Get what? Your need to see past the question and find the perverted male subtext within?

Exactly. Because all female around here are just going through each thread with a fine toothed comb just praying we'll find something we can use the sexism flag on. You want to talk about inflammatory comments? Puh-lease. I'm not trying to insinuate all males members are perverted.

The next logical step from "Looking at something is alright" isn't "touching something is alright", and therefore that analogy was as useless as it was intentionally inflammatory. Unbelievable.

It seemed that many guys were making the argument, they're boobs, I can't help but look, it's ingrained in me. I can't help but look. My point was, what else can't you help? It's ingrained after all.

...you posted a question asking how to avoid looking at my swinging dick, would men accuse you of being sexist?

Happens all the time at my office. Uh yeah, gimmie a break. The idea of comparing a woman who's shirt happens to be cut a little low to a man walking around with his dick out, well, let me borrow your words: "that analogy was as useless as it was intentionally inflammatory. Unbelievable."
posted by CwgrlUp at 5:23 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

This is some serious bullshit and I can't believe any men are trying to defend it. If there was a AskMe about "how do I avoid staring at dudes' packages at work when they're standing in front of me while I'm sitting" then would you get it? No, probably not.

What is "some serious bullshit"? Completely inappropriate, juvenile remarks that don't answer the question? Sure. Or did you mean someone posting a question about how they can best avoid offending a female co-worker? I have a suspicion the answer is that the two separate issues are now completely intertwined for some people and that's too bad. If you can't see how that kind of question is a positive thing, you're not going to help this discussion.
posted by yerfatma at 5:24 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

I'm interested in the fact that the OP of the AskMe question was made equally uncomfortable shifting his gaze to make eye contact. Us Minnesotans are notorious for not making eye contact, and actually facing away from each other when we converse, so it makes things awkward when the person is right in front of you and you don't know where to look. I often focus on the forehead.
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:24 PM on January 23

I also want to marry KlangKlangston. (Or at least his brain. But not in a creepy head-in-a-jar way.)

I don't know why his attitude isn't more popular. You say snappy things about the male gaze once in a while and the girls go "Oooooh!" and you still get to have a scruffy beard and talk about porn and be rambunctious and argumentative and manly. I see no downside.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 5:25 PM on January 23 [10 favorites]

Oops: on posting, the answer to my question is "I'M FUCKING PISSED!!!"
posted by yerfatma at 5:25 PM on January 23

Some of the useless bickering going on here could have been avoided if everyone had read and paid attention to the original post:

I'm not a guy. I'm willing to accept that it is, in some mysterious way I don't fully understand, more difficult for a man not to look at boobs than it is for women not to look at boobs. Sure.

...

But I can't really get behind the back-patting, boys will be boys, check out my awesome new term for "breasts", women are for staring at LOL AMIRITE! stuff developing in that thread.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 5:26 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure why you say that. I only meant to be making explicit some of our normal socializing behaviors. I didn't mean "look away in fear, lest you be burned", I meant, even though your eyes might want to linger, choose to look at something else. That's how you stop looking at things you're socially prohibited from looking at. Look at something else, via an exercise of your will.

LobsterMitten, I'm saying it's childish and silly (overreacting) in the way I perceived you to say it. Looking away itself isn't what I referred to; I look away because of the aggregate social factors and the lack of being a pervert or utterly fascinated by 1/5th a breast. But I also look.

The OP's problem seems to be he's as uncomfortable "forcing" himself to look away as he is looking. I took what you said to be in the same vein, eg. thinking that you must force yourself to quickly look away as soon as you realize what you're looking at. That's not really reasonable. The result is not staring either way but the difference is one way ending the browsing naturally and the other is hitting a panic button and looking away before you're caught raping with your eyes.

Perhaps I interpreted what you said differently than you intended, but I took it to be more in line with the OP's apparent issue, in which case you would have been suggesting he do the same thing he pointed out as making him uncomfortable, rendering it an ineffective solution.
posted by rob paxon at 5:26 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

I don't know why his attitude isn't more popular. You say snappy things about the male gaze once in a while and the girls go "Oooooh!" and you still get to have a scruffy beard and talk about porn and be rambunctious and argumentative and manly. I see no downside.

The rumors about him and human sacrifices to Jamie Farr are greatly exaggerated.
posted by jonmc at 5:29 PM on January 23

I'm also opposed to the tone of that thread, but I have an honest question:

Is it possible for a woman not to be aware that she's making someone uncomfortable or presenting a little too much cleavage (or other exposure)?

I would think - considering all of the above and the tone of that thread, considering how much guys do stare - that most women would be generally aware of how little or how much is showing.
posted by loquacious at 5:33 PM on January 23

All I'm saying is there is a remote possibility that he might ask you, if being a girl is such a pain in the ass, why don't you simply become a boy.

Heyoooo!
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:33 PM on January 23 [5 favorites]

I'll ask it again because it wasn't answered ... Must we wring our hands about this?

If you're really holding your breath on this one, here:

No.

So, why doesn't it stop right there? Haven't we all been down this road before, many, many times?

It's like we're all stuck in WWI trenches made of dialog and puffery, and every now and again, there's some shooting before everyone goes back down into the trenches. It's all so very predictable.

Let's all just put our guns down, head for Paris, and enjoy the 1920s. Absinthe for everyone!
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:34 PM on January 23

Let's all just put our guns down, head for Paris, and enjoy the 1920s.

No let's skip Paris, it's full of French people.
posted by jonmc at 5:38 PM on January 23

Absinthe was already banned in the 1920s, but I'd be happy to buy you a Ramos gin fizz.
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:38 PM on January 23

what seemed obvious: the way to NOT stare at something is to avert one's eyes.

This is really what it all boils down to. I mean, I realize there is this whole "AskMe isn't JudgeMe" ethos here, but it seems to me there are some questions whose answers are so shockingly obvious that if you have to ask them at all you're probably beyond help. Even ignoring the sexist implications for a minute, this question belongs in the same category as "How do I stop my hand from burning when I place in directly onto a hot stove?"
posted by The Gooch at 5:39 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

It's like we're all stuck in WWI trenches

It's WWIV, it's a fucking wasteland and there are mutant, cannibial feminists out there. Tread lightly.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:39 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

"Six million articles that nobody wants to read because there's porn around instead."

Dude, I do both, and still find time to read about music, art and science.

"You say snappy things about the male gaze once in a while and the girls go "Oooooh!" and you still get to have a scruffy beard and talk about porn and be rambunctious and argumentative and manly. I see no downside."

I mentioned this in another thread, how having a hyper-masculine exterior's really freeing in some ways. It means that here, at work, I don't ever have to pretend to like the huge fake tits, or be ashamed of being a vegetarian, or deal with any of the weird homophobia that some of my coworkers do. I just roll it all into what I consider being a man means and they can all get fucked, because as the biggest, hairiest, most swearin' son-of-a-bitch in the office, no one else can challenge me on it.
posted by klangklangston at 5:39 PM on January 23 [13 favorites]

I don't get it. I mean, it's not like lesbians constantly fret about the fact that they can't stop staring at other women in the workplace and then come up with intricate just-so stories about how it's really the other woman's fault.

Several responses in this thread make it clear that some believe that this country's limited sexual harassment laws are too strong for CLEARLY OVERWHELMING AND OBVIOUSLY SUPER MANLY URGES. Now I get it, you like boobs. It must be so hard to be you on the internet. *hugs while wearing tight sweater*
posted by allen.spaulding at 5:40 PM on January 23 [11 favorites]

CPB, just come to Minnesota.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 5:40 PM on January 23

there are some questions whose answers are so shockingly obvious that if you have to ask them at all you're probably beyond help

Seriously, if I went to this thread and said "Stop crying! You're being a baby. I've never had this problem.", do you think anyone would treat that answer with a shred of respect? It seems people were able to offer constructive solutions there despite the fact that "Don't cry!" is just as constructive as "Control your gaze!"
posted by 0xFCAF at 5:41 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

Dude, I do both, and still find time to read about music, art and science.

I'm too busy dealing with homeless guy spit (used to polish books) and insane bosses to even try anymore. By the time you're my age it'll happen to you too, and as my new theme song says, I Am Right.
posted by jonmc at 5:42 PM on January 23

it seems to me there are some questions whose answers are so shockingly obvious that if you have to ask them at all you're probably beyond help.

Again, you need to read the question. It essentially boiled down to "The obvious alternative to not staring make me as uncomfortable as the staring. How do I deal with this?".

Only reading half a question very often produces a facile answer.
posted by Brockles at 5:42 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

CPB, just come to Minnesota.

Ugh. If you want to spend $70 for a drink that, unless you have a super-sophisticated palate, is going to taste like Pernod and disappoint you by not getting you high? Absinthe is overrated, and the fact that there is a frenzy for it demonstrates that TC hipsters have no taste.
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:43 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

"All I'm saying is there is a remote possibility that he might ask you, if being a girl is such a pain in the ass, why don't you simply become a boy.

Heyoooo!"

Za-za-za-zing!

(Some women kind of do, but I think there are more valid arguments to be made over gender essentialism than that cultural/religious/ethnic essentialism).
posted by klangklangston at 5:43 PM on January 23

In the name of science, tomorrow I will be staring at the crotches of all the men I encounter. To the men walking towards me in the hallway, guys that work in the cafeteria in the building, gentlemen entering the elevators, fellas sitting in your cubicles, incarcerated men working roadside detail for the fine state of Massachusetts, cops directing traffic - consider yourself warned.

I will report back with my findings.
posted by jerseygirl at 5:44 PM on January 23 [5 favorites]

Really? Now I haven't been around forever like some, but I'm pretty sure I have yet to see a MeTa about a guy complaining over girlzone or being creeped out by snugglepuppies comments or getting your parts ogled.

I mean that as you say some men wait for a woman to call something out as sexist just to deride her, you can just as easily say those people sit around and wait to see something they can call out as sexist. The point being that you'd be shallowly generalizing either way. All we know is that some people call some things out and whenever something is called out, those not agreeing with the premise of the complainer will speak their piece. You're the one applying sweeping gender-based motivations to this, and such sweeping assumptions of motivation can be applied to all parties involved in call-outs such as these.

Exactly. Because all female around here are just going through each thread with a fine toothed comb just praying we'll find something we can use the sexism flag on. You want to talk about inflammatory comments? Puh-lease. I'm not trying to insinuate all males members are perverted.

No... because you DID look past the damn question to find the perverted male sexist subtext within. The said subtext that wasn't there until others fabricated it, mind you.

It seemed that many guys were making the argument, they're boobs, I can't help but look, it's ingrained in me. I can't help but look. My point was, what else can't you help? It's ingrained after all.

Because we are ingrained with certain things and we do acknowledge that we are partially controlled by those ingrained behaviors as humans. We make these realizations all of the time and we don't reach to use them to excuse rape and murder. There's no reason to then act as if it is the natural, assured progression that someone do just that.

Regardless of all, they are boobs. To be technical we can't help but look at anything. You can't avoid looking at something until you realize there's something in a location you want to avoid. And there is nothing wrong with looking at boobs, ass, cock bulge, pretty blue eyes, ankles, shoulders, or anything else... regardless of whatever superficial justification someone else might want to try using. There's just nothing wrong with it, period. Ogling and staring to the point of making someone uncomfortable is wrong, to the point of one's view. It's certainly wrong to do in our society's workplaces. No one says it is ingrained in us that we must stare pervertedly at breasts. If they do, they're an idiot. Saying it is ingrained in us that breasts are sexually attractive and ignite something deep within us, that is true. It is a reason for why we may look at breasts and enjoy some aspect of it. That does not lead to "it is ingrained in me that I rape you".

Happens all the time at my office. Uh yeah, gimmie a break. The idea of comparing a woman who's shirt happens to be cut a little low to a man walking around with his dick out, well, let me borrow your words: "that analogy was as useless as it was intentionally inflammatory. Unbelievable."

You brought it up as quoted previous to me saying that. Obviously you said "bulge" rather than "swinging dick", but we aren't talking about a bulge of breasts. We aren't talking about swinging breasts either but I was being intentionally exaggerating. You see, a bulge in a man's pants can not be controlled to the extent of a woman's cleavage being shown. In order to respond to your analogy I made it more accurate in that the one being "looked at" is by his or her actions exposing what the other person is looking at.

You asked if we would "get it" if the roles were reversed. I'd feel the same way as I do now, not the way you do. My "cry wolf" sexist alarm would not have rung, to the point. The person asking the question was not being sexist, if anything he was overly sensitive to a woman's perception of sexism, which itself today seems to be often overly sensitive (eg. this thread).
posted by rob paxon at 5:44 PM on January 23

I'm glad you took that in the spirit of levity it was intended, Klang.
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:44 PM on January 23

In the name of science, tomorrow I will be staring at the crotches of all the men I encounter. To the men walking towards me in the hallway, guys that work in the cafeteria in the building, gentlemen entering the elevators, fellas sitting in your cubicles, incarcerated men working roadside detail for the fine state of Massachusetts, cops directing traffic - consider yourself warned.

I will report back with my findings.

The crucial difference between men and women is this: the men won't mind.
posted by jonmc at 5:46 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

"I'm glad you took that in the spirit of levity it was intended, Klang."

After I'd calmed down, I took a fair amount of that prior thread with levity. Now I'm waiting a couple weeks until launching into the Holocaust jokes, but they'll show up again.

Sorry, girls, don't mean to take over your thread.

I'm not jonmc.
posted by klangklangston at 5:50 PM on January 23

I'm pretty unimpressed right now with a lot of users who I generally find to be rational and smart individuals. It is not anyone's birthright to stare at womens' breasts, whether they know you are looking or not (and trust me, they probably can tell, think of that 'someone's watching me' feeling). If you want to stare at boobs there are probably hundreds of opportunities every day to do this in advertising, magazines, television, the internet, movies, video games, etc. If you want to make juvenile comments about boobs, there are also a lot of other places on these here internets for that.

It's not being humorless, PC-patrol thought police to ask that you not act like jerks regarding women's bodies. You don't have the right to stare, or comment on, or appreciate, or disapprove of them. These are your coworkers and you have to respect them and their feelings. How hard is that? We're your fellow users, and you have to respect us and our feelings. How hard is that? I have no desire to police your thoughts. I just care about MetaFilter remaining a non-hostile and respectful environment for its users.
posted by SassHat at 5:50 PM on January 23 [14 favorites]

the way to NOT stare at something is to avert one's eyes.

See Brockles previous answer to a similar statement
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:52 PM on January 23

Hi, I'm THE MALE GAZE, and I have about SIX MILLION ARTICLES written about me, especially in conjunction with institutionalized sexism.

And there's nothing whatsoever ironic about that, is there?

Perhaps when six million similar articles have been published about THE FEMALE EXHIBITIONISM or whatever, people might start to realise what a profoundly anti-masculist theoretical construct it really is.

The fact that it has obviously been internalised by so many of my brothers makes it no truer, and no less of an offensive sexist stereotype, and it does no help to either the masculist or feminist causes to thoughtlessly regurgitate it as some kind of eternal truth about some kind of imagined, essentialised male nature.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:52 PM on January 23 [5 favorites]

"I'd feel the same way as I do now, not the way you do. My "cry wolf" sexist alarm would not have rung, to the point. The person asking the question was not being sexist, if anything he was overly sensitive to a woman's perception of sexism, which itself today seems to be often overly sensitive (eg. this thread)."

Dude, I'm ignoring all of the silliness about how men can't control their eyes, or whatever. However, the "Oh, I'm sure if I was a woman I'd feel exactly the same as I do now" should get you laughed out of the building.
posted by klangklangston at 5:53 PM on January 23

posted by jerseygirl In the name of science, tomorrow I will be staring at the crotches of all the men I encounter.

Scientifically speaking, will this be a double-blind study?
posted by fandango_matt at 5:53 PM on January 23

As many have noted, the poster didn't ask for help on how to contend with being surrounded by inappropriately dressed female co-workers. It is disappointing to see how his problem- which, as he posed it, seemed to be an entirely sincere request for advice- was quickly transformed. Instead, the problem became not him but his female co-workers.

Parsing the descriptions by those who argue that women are at fault for being objectified in the workplace, it seems that the criteria for attire that is guaranteed to be deemed "approximate" - clothing that never displays one's breasts in a way that might attract attention- are impossible to acheive. The only option would be burkhas or sleeping bags, and those don't look very professional. The sum total of the comments suggest- some more explicitly than others- that women pose a problem just by being there.

I wish some of the posters here would have a bit of compassion for the inherent difficulties that come with being female in a professional environment, where being a woman means being gendered in a way that men are usually not, and always and inevitably having ones' appearance be an issue. I think it might help the well-intentioned OP to remind himself that he wants to be both a good colleague and a mensch, that his co-workers who happen to have breasts were hired for the same skills and abilities that he was, and that they deserve to have their words and thoughts be given his full attention as if and because they are his equals.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 5:54 PM on January 23 [15 favorites]

I'm not jonmc.

of course not. you don't have my flair for hat wearing or the proper respect for the Dictators. (ignore me, I'm tired and irrelevant)
posted by jonmc at 5:55 PM on January 23

Dude, I'm ignoring all of the silliness about how men can't control their eyes, or whatever. However, the "Oh, I'm sure if I was a woman I'd feel exactly the same as I do now" should get you laughed out of the building.

I didn't say that and if you can't follow a conversation you shouldn't be pronouncing that someone be "laughed out of the building". She said if a WOMAN had made a post about not being able to stop staring at a MAN's bulge. That has nothing to do with if I were a woman.
posted by rob paxon at 5:58 PM on January 23

Occasionally I see a guy at the gym unabashedly staring at a woman working out in shorts and a sports bra. But staring is not the norm even in that environment. Just thought I would mention that.

Dude, there wasn't a single woman in my family -- from my ten year old sister, to my seventy-six year old grandmother that wouldn't stop and stare at the TV whenever Linford's Lunchbox made an appearance. And not just stare, either. They'd make lascivious comments, too.

It's not nice having to listen to your own mother, describing the action of an enormous phallus in motion -- particularly when it fed in to a wimpy white boy's anxieties about the potency of black masculinity. And I wouldn't mind, but there wasn't a single one of them had any interest in athletics.

All they cared about was that bouncing roll of man-flesh.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:00 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

"Perhaps when six million similar articles have been published about THE FEMALE EXHIBITIONISM or whatever, people might start to realise what a profoundly anti-masculist theoretical construct it really is.

The fact that it has obviously been internalised by so many of my brothers makes it no truer, and no less of an offensive sexist stereotype, and it does no help to either the masculist or feminist causes to thoughtlessly regurgitate it as some kind of eternal truth about some kind of imagined, essentialised male nature."

Oh, spare me that "brothers" bullshit. I mean, first off, to argue that it's equivalent to "female exhibitionism" is to be profoundly retarded about how power is constructed in Western civilization. And to put it down to a stereotype shows that you don't fucking get it—it's not about male nature, it's about how expressions of power affect interpersonal and social dynamics. It's part of a critical body of work regarding the difference inherent in gazes (medical, editorial, diegetic) first, applied to gender relations second.

If you understand it as essentialized, you've missed the whole fucking point.
posted by klangklangston at 6:02 PM on January 23 [10 favorites]

Ask MetaFilter: All they cared about was a bouncing roll of man-flesh.
posted by fandango_matt at 6:02 PM on January 23

All they cared about was that bouncing roll of man-flesh.

dude, all anybody cares about is sex, money, power and ego. get over it.
posted by jonmc at 6:03 PM on January 23

"of course not. you don't have my flair for hat wearing or the proper respect for the Dictators. (ignore me, I'm tired and irrelevant)"

The Dictators only had one great album.

There, I said it.
posted by klangklangston at 6:04 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

No, no, Ubu. [Brockles' comment] It was genius. Stark, unfettered genius.

Actually, it reminded me of the way that one can watch a performance - say, by a juggler or acrobat - and the better they are, the more seamless the performance, the easier it is for you to think that it must be quite easy. That's a pretty good definition of at least a certain kind of genius, I think: making the difficult appear easy.

There was nothing in Brockles' comment that sounded like it wasn't common sense, nothing obviously exaggerated or projected or stereotyped. As such, it was all the easier to go "Yeh, that's what I was thinking. What's so clever about that?" without recognising that it actually takes a lot of skill to come across so naturally.

Well done.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:06 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

Is it possible for a woman not to be aware that she's making someone uncomfortable or presenting a little too much cleavage (or other exposure)?

Sure. You could not realize, under the fluorescent office lights, that you can see your bra through your new shirt, or it can be as simple as losing a button on a blouse. I've worn a new shirt to work only to realize that after hunching over a desk all day, it kind of rode down and really was more of a Boob Shirt than a Work Shirt. Cardigan, in the cubicle, at all times for the potential wardrobe malfunctions. You just never know when you or another woman may need it.
posted by jerseygirl at 6:07 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

The Dictators only had one great album.

which one? My respect for you depends on the answer. (There are two which will maintain it).
posted by jonmc at 6:08 PM on January 23

Again, you need to read the question. It essentially boiled down to "The obvious alternative to not staring make me as uncomfortable as the staring. How do I deal with this?".

Only reading half a question very often produces a facile answer.

Well, I guess I'm stumped then. When someone asks a question that has only one possible answer ("LOOK SOMEWHERE ELSE"), which the asker rejects outright from the start, I'm not sure there's much anyone can do to help.
posted by The Gooch at 6:10 PM on January 23

I always found that staring at my male teachers crotches in the first week or so of class was the way to make sure they would never call on me for the remainder of the semester.

Is it possible for a woman not to be aware that she's making someone uncomfortable or presenting a little too much cleavage (or other exposure)?

Well it can be a tough call really. I have a bit of a rack and my problem is usually this: if I wear a shirt that fits well, or snugly or has a bit of a neckline to it, I can look like a bit of an exhibitionist. If I wear something a little baggier or looser, I look like one of those women who is ashamed of their bodies. I want to fall somewhere in the middle but sometimes I miss, usually on the dowdier end, but it's immediately obvious if I've missed on the other end because people get edgy or weird about it, or make comments.

Not always, and certainly not where I live. However, I'm pushing 40 and really like to wear clothes that fit and feel that when I do I'm basically going to involve myself in a war of the wills with men who will either have that "you've put me in this awkward situation..." fidgets or just the flat out can't look me in the eye thing. Heck even if I wear baggy clothes people find it appropriate to talk about my ass even in MeTa. Which is sort of friendly-jokey I guess, but sort of not, you know?

I sympathize with the OP in this case. I wish that thread hadn't turned into cut-up-town.
posted by jessamyn at 6:11 PM on January 23 [11 favorites]

It is not anyone's birthright to stare at womens' breasts, whether they know you are looking or not (and trust me, they probably can tell, think of that 'someone's watching me' feeling).

It is anyone's birthright to stare at whatever they want. It's your birthright to feel uncomfortable about it. It's the workplace's, society's, etc's right to say that in the interest of promoting a positive environment, this behavior, as it makes you uncomfortable, be regulated in said environment.

You can not possibly get any more ridiculous than "YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO LOOK AT ME". We don't have the right to look at or think about you or parts of your body? Are you the thought police? Patently absurd. And to connect this with respect and feelings is only one notch less silly. Looking at a woman's exposed cleavage is being disrespectful? Having a mental opinion of a woman's breasts is not respecting her feelings? How does any of this connect.

I fully agree that it is the polite thing to do to avoid behaviors known to make another person uncomfortable. It isn't a matter of "rights". People have the right to do things that make you uncomfortable, and they have the right to not care how it makes you feel. In the workplace, thankfully, people are forced within reason (and often outside of reason) to avoid making you uncomfortable. And that's it.

It's not being humorless, PC-patrol thought police to ask that you not act like jerks regarding women's bodies.

It is by definition humorless. Whether spot-on or ridiculous would be what is at issue, and frankly this hasn't been about "being jerks". It's been about something much more benign than being a jerk and therefore is unwarranted AND humorless rallying.

You don't have the right to stare, or comment on, or appreciate, or disapprove of them.

Actually we do, contingent on the rules relating to the institution or place in question.

These are your coworkers and you have to respect them and their feelings. How hard is that? We're your fellow users, and you have to respect us and our feelings.

No one has to respect you or your feelings, regardless of whether they should or shouldn't. And looking at your breasts or having an opinion of them, again, isn't disrespecting you or your feelings.

I have no desire to police your thoughts.

So long as those thoughts don't involve you or your breasts or whatever else you don't want people to think about or look at.
posted by rob paxon at 6:11 PM on January 23 [10 favorites]

Is it possible for a woman not to be aware that she's making someone uncomfortable or presenting a little too much cleavage (or other exposure)?

Sure, it's possible. It happens all the time. An anecdote follows. But I think it's more common for us to know that men are uncomfortable with the presence of our body parts but not have a whole lot of non-surgical available options to fix this problem. I started to make a list of the ways that it is difficult to dress human breasts in such a way that will please everyone but I started to get a headache, so on to the anecdote.

I tutor children. One day, I was wearing what I believed was a not-low-cut sweater. I leaned over to get something for a kindergartener and she screamed, "MISS LEMURIA, YOUR BOOBS ARE WHITE!!"
posted by lemuria at 6:11 PM on January 23

foxy_hedgehog from what I'm reading, the talk isn't about women simply existing in the workplace as being the problem. The problem is the women who lean in such a way as to, as the OP says, expose "[h]uge pendelous breasts in front of me." The OP explicitly said the woman bent down at his desk. This is clearly an issue with what the woman is doing. I don't know about you, but if I'm wearing something that is low-cut enough for someone to look up my shirt, I make a point of not bending down enough for them to see in. Especially at the office.

It's like the posters who said above that a man should not stand with his crotch 2 inches from a woman's face. It's just courtesy, and it doesn't sound like the woman in question was being very courteous.
posted by veronitron at 6:11 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

I don't take a lot of what I read on teh internets deathly seriously. I just figured that a lot of the respondents thought it wasn't really that serious a question and so had some fun with it. Some of the answers were over the top, but I think most had been deleted by the time I read the thread, which shows the flagging system works. I really wish that instead of having yet another sexism thread, hmsbeagle, you had just flagged the offending comments and moved on. One sign, in my mind, of a bad call-out is feeling the need to write a really long justification for it, as you did.

Brandon_Blatcher: I'm not sure what response you expect from me. I've previously realized that you feel really ambivalent about me, and that's fine. TPS and I have very different styles of speaking (well, writing), and I'm fine with that, too. You may not be. But that's not something for me to take care of.

If you are going to call out a post, hmsbeagle, I think making a snarky comment in the post first, just to get your digs in is bad form, like Brandon Blatcher said. And that little, "I don't know what you expect from me...not something for me to take care of," line is bullshit. If you want others to watch what they write because it offends you, you need to take responsibility for what you write that offends others. Crapping in the post was uncalled for.

The title of this callout also doesn't help your case.
posted by misha at 6:13 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]

Boooooooooobs. January 23, 2008 3:30 PM Subscribe

Boooooooooobs.
January 23, 2008 3:30 PM Subscribe