M$ SuXx0rs!

May 13, 2008 2:02 PM

LOLMICROSOFT

Wow. It sucks when Slashdot discussion of Microsoft's WorldWide Telescope manages to be better, more informative, and less full of inane Microsoft bashing than the Metafilter one.

posted by Artw to Etiquette/Policy at 2:02 PM (244 comments total)

And this is why your favorite breaking newsfilter posts tend to go badly here. Oddly that thread was hardly flagged at all. Yet.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:06 PM on May 13, 2008

jessamyn: "And this is why your favorite breaking newsfilter posts tend to go badly here. Oddly that thread was hardly flagged at all. Yet."

I wanted to flag it but with the exception of a few neckbeards getting hipsterections tripping over themselves to bash MS, it stayed pretty civil.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 2:08 PM on May 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Whenever there are software posts on Metafilter, they seem to be of the Windows-only variety. It's pretty much a given, to be honest. You'll forgive me if I feel a little upset that I'm being (indirectly) spammed.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:09 PM on May 13, 2008

I used to scoff at fanboi-haters as plain anti-mac, but I'm a big Mac fan and even I hate them nowadays. Either I've wised up or they're getting increasingly retarded. I fear it's the former.

Daringfireball linked to the flickr page of a guy who got a Dell with a broken keyboard last week, and the poor guy's page filled up with thousands of retards going "lol get a mac".
posted by bonaldi at 2:11 PM on May 13, 2008

I tried to flag it but Internet Explorer crashed.
posted by Floydd at 2:13 PM on May 13, 2008 [13 favorites]

sooo... am I being called out?

that'd be neat if this were my first callout. lord knows I've been trying to get one.

Whenever there are software posts on Metafilter, they seem to be of the Windows-only variety. It's pretty much a given, to be honest. You'll forgive me if I feel a little upset that I'm being (indirectly) spammed.

Is this how all the mac-only mefites feel about the front page? It has honestly never occurred to me, but when I think about neat software posted here it's seem to be pretty true. I mean, we get Apple posts all the time, true, but not really for mac software so much as it's for Apple gadgets.

The only question I would have is: then why aren't you guys posting mac software to the blue? I mean, if not the mac mefites, then who would?
posted by shmegegge at 2:14 PM on May 13, 2008

the exception of a few neckbeards getting hipsterections tripping over themselves to bash MS

*sends off to flapjax at midnite*
posted by cashman at 2:14 PM on May 13, 2008

The guy in the TED video claimed that this freaking software was going to mark the biggest change in "how we see the universe" since Galileo, for fuck's sake. Of course that kind of hubris is going to be mercilessly mocked, coming from Microsoft or anybody else.
posted by enn at 2:17 PM on May 13, 2008

It was initially my fault. And so, as one poster suggested, I've STFU in that thread.
posted by nightwood at 2:18 PM on May 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

THIS COMMENT MARKS THE BIGGEST CHANGE IN HOW WE READ METAFILTER SINCE "PLATE OF BEANS."
posted by dersins at 2:18 PM on May 13, 2008 [8 favorites]

Don't MACs cause hipsterections? Wear baggy pants when enjoying your MAC and no one will know.
posted by caddis at 2:19 PM on May 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Dersins is right. The site actually feels snappier and more responsive.
posted by Free word order! at 2:22 PM on May 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

Somewhere, in an alternate universe, the good people of Sicromoft have released GlobalObservatory for free on all operating systems and to much critical acclaim. The comment thread on the weblog community MegaFilter is full of unqualified praise for the brilliance and magnanimity of well-coifed CEO Gill Bates and his kindly, mild-mannered VP Bev Sallmer. The discussion is going so well that the three mods, hatmaui, turkex, and messagin, don't even have to issue a warning.

All is well. All is well.
posted by Rhaomi at 2:24 PM on May 13, 2008 [9 favorites]

this is how it looks to me.

misdirection
hipsterection
plantarflexion
heat convection
love connection
meat injection
brain infection
botched election
vivisection
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:27 PM on May 13, 2008 [17 favorites]

And, clearly, ROU_Xenophobe is trapped in that freakish, alternate reality.
posted by enn at 2:27 PM on May 13, 2008

Again, the irony is stunning. The comparison is the age old Apple vs. Microsoft, but Apple has no comparable software product to the one in the post! So the complaint is that the application that Microsoft spent its research money to develop from scratch and from which it derives no revenue should have had a native OS port. Why should Microsoft have done that? Can someone answer this question?

Think, people. This is educational software. Macs have a high market penetration in schools. It isn't rocket science to see why Microsoft would suggest there is a way to run this on Macs.
posted by Pastabagel at 2:29 PM on May 13, 2008 [4 favorites]

John McCain is older than Microsoft.

el oh el.
posted by ninjew at 2:32 PM on May 13, 2008

This comment is Mac-compatible.
posted by blue_beetle at 2:33 PM on May 13, 2008

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEERDFIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!

*grabs popcorn, sits down to watch the awkward scuffling and slapping*

*gets bored, scratches navel, decides to make some money*

Genuine pocket protectors! Get your genuine pocket protectors here! Fresh vinyl, hot off the stamping machine from original vintage die-cut dies. Protect your pockets! Pocket protectors, best quality! 50cc ink capacity! Fresh pocket protectors! Holds at least a dozen pens or small tools or your money back!
posted by loquacious at 2:44 PM on May 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

The only question I would have is: then why aren't you guys posting mac software to the blue? I mean, if not the mac mefites, then who would?

This isn't politicsfilter and it's not about posting a ratio of 3 Ron Pauls for every 8 Obamas to "even the score". But you do realize that this is advertising of a stripe, right?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:53 PM on May 13, 2008

meat injection

boizone lol amirite?
posted by Meatbomb at 2:58 PM on May 13, 2008

This is advertising of a stripes.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:00 PM on May 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

Is this the year of the Metafilter on the desktop?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:07 PM on May 13, 2008 [4 favorites]

Pastabagel writes "The comparison is the age old Apple vs. Microsoft, but Apple has no comparable software product to the one in the post!"

No, the issue is that other people already do this and support OS X and linux (Google Sky, Solarium) and MS is late to the party with a one-trick pony.
posted by mullingitover at 3:07 PM on May 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

But you do realize that this is advertising of a stripe, right?

why would it have to be? I've posted software to the blue before myself. Nobody complained it was pepsi blue, or that they were being advertised to. I happen to think it was "best of the web enough" to share with mefites, and some of the mefites agreed. why couldn't the same happen with something for the mac? I'm not saying to post links to every final cut upgrade that comes along, but if there's something interesting on a mac that's worth posting to the blue, then put it up there. if no one's doing that, then it's hardly the fault of windows users.

also, your point didn't seem to be about posting any software at all, it seemed to be about posting "windows only garbage."
posted by shmegegge at 3:07 PM on May 13, 2008

also, your point didn't seem to be about posting any software at all, it seemed to be about posting "windows only garbage."

I think my point was about being fed up with more of the same constant Microsoft promotion on the front page, though it doesn't read as clearly there as it does here.

I'm not saying to post links to every final cut upgrade that comes along, but if there's something interesting on a mac that's worth posting to the blue, then put it up there. if no one's doing that, then it's hardly the fault of windows users.

Please point to where I am blaming Windows users for using this amazing new product.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:13 PM on May 13, 2008

I'm a big Mac fan and even I hate them nowadays. Either I've wised up or they're getting increasingly retarded.

The Mac zealots are just as awful as they've always been, but there are more of them now and the proliferation of blogs, comment areas, and message boards have made it easier for them to be awful.

M$
posted by Mikey-San at 3:18 PM on May 13, 2008

this is how it looks to me.

misdirection
hipsterection
plantarflexion
heat convection
love connection
meat injection
brain infection
botched election
vivisection

WHEW, that's some big words there.

Genuine pocket protectors! Get your genuine pocket protectors here! Fresh vinyl, hot off the stamping machine from original vintage die-cut dies. Protect your pockets! Pocket protectors, best quality! 50cc ink capacity! Fresh pocket protectors! Holds at least a dozen pens or small tools or your money back!

Yep.
posted by wafaa at 3:22 PM on May 13, 2008

The guy in the TED video claimed that this freaking software was going to mark the biggest change in "how we see the universe" since Galileo, for fuck's sake.

It made Scoble cry.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 3:26 PM on May 13, 2008

See, that would be a relevant discussion.

Bitching about Mac Office isn't.
posted by Artw at 3:32 PM on May 13, 2008

I AM PERSONALLY AND EMOTIONALLY INVESTED IN MY OPERATING SYSTEM OF CHOICE.
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:35 PM on May 13, 2008 [7 favorites]

Well that's nice. Can we start deleting this bullshit now?
posted by Artw at 3:46 PM on May 13, 2008

I, personally, am very offended at the lack of support for OS/2.
posted by IronLizard at 3:49 PM on May 13, 2008

Sorry that your thread piloting isn't working out, but it's way less random for readers that way that stopping in the middle of what we were saying. It's not as if there's a big discussion about the merits of WWT trying to break through.
posted by bonaldi at 3:49 PM on May 13, 2008

I think my point was about being fed up with more of the same constant Microsoft promotion on the front page, though it doesn't read as clearly there as it does here.

ok. I honestly don't see the front page as having constant microsoft promotion on it, certainly not compared to the constant apple and google updates. but hey, that's why we're different people I guess.

Please point to where I am blaming Windows users for using this amazing new product.

look, I'm not trying to pigeonhole you or fight you on this or anything. I'm just saying that mac software would be more than welcome on the front page if people would post it, and that that has to be done by mac users. so if you're tired of all the software posts requiring an OS you don't run, then make a software post for the OS you do. it's not like johnny windows user is going to make a post about ambrosia software. I had considered making one about bluephone elite, but I realized that I don't have anything to say about it other than "I just got this, and it makes my phone cooler," so I figured it wouldn't be a good post. But then, I'm not bothered by the software posts on the front page.

it seems to me that saying "Whenever there are software posts on Metafilter, they seem to be of the Windows-only variety. It's pretty much a given, to be honest. You'll forgive me if I feel a little upset that I'm being (indirectly) spammed," necessarily implies that the lack of mac software posts justifies shitting on windows posts. in other words, mac users not providing you with decent links on the blue is somehow being blamed on windows users. it seems this way to me because you are specifically talking about how often a software post involves windows and not osx. since the people putting up the software posts that do not involve osx are presumably windows users, it seems like you are blaming them for something. and since the problem doesn't seem to be all posts, but rather posts that involve running windows, it seems you are blaming them for posting software that interests THEM instead of YOU.

so no, I am not saying that you're blaming windows users for using an amazing new product. I'm saying you're blaming them for an imbalance on the front page that is not their fault.
posted by shmegegge at 3:50 PM on May 13, 2008

This comment is only compatible with computers runni;;;;;[[[[][](^&^DGA*%&^%

         &&&&&&&&&&&&&<> ******poste####)()(d by
E

     ndsOfInventi    on         ##########


31 ya

   M no MP 53             //////\\\\\\\\\\\\

%%%%%%        :01 ta


¶














 
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:51 PM on May 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

Do the pocket protectors come with matching slide rule belt clips? Mine wore out.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 3:52 PM on May 13, 2008

Fair enough, EOI, but the BeOS team is actively working on a patch for the issue and the whole goat thing was just an April Fools hoax, anyway. But you're right about Cheney, I'll give you that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:56 PM on May 13, 2008 [3 favorites]

EndsOfInvention: "31 ya"

f'real
posted by 31d1 at 3:57 PM on May 13, 2008

This reminds me of the US-centric concerns that come up occasionally.
posted by loiseau at 4:00 PM on May 13, 2008

On Metafilter, no one can hear you scream.
posted by Dave Faris at 4:00 PM on May 13, 2008

Do the pocket protectors come with matching slide rule belt clips? Mine wore out.

They don't come with the pocket protectors, but I do have some very nice slide rule holsters in stock. You may be particularly interested in our two-slot model in leather. One pocket for your single-scale A/B, and another slightly larger pocket for your duplex models.

However due to limited supplies I'll need to see you solve a few problems with it before I can sell you one. Basic stuff like finding the root, sine and cosine.
posted by loquacious at 4:04 PM on May 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I'm tired of the front page being full of hyperlinks ONLY TO THINGS ON THE INTERNET.
posted by turgid dahlia at 4:04 PM on May 13, 2008

It's not as if there's a big discussion about the merits of WWT trying to break through.

That would be the general effect of all the thread-shitting, yes. I don't really see that as a positive.
posted by Artw at 4:05 PM on May 13, 2008

Well that's nice. Can we start deleting this bullshit now?

SWEET FUCKING VIRGIN BABY JESUS SNIFFING GLUE GROW A HIDE ALREADY!
posted by loquacious at 4:07 PM on May 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

That would be the general effect of all the thread-shitting, yes. I don't really see that as a positive.
Same with this thread.
posted by bonaldi at 4:19 PM on May 13, 2008

Looking down your nose at Slashdot is what sucks. What, your thread-shit don't stink?
posted by Brocktoon at 4:20 PM on May 13, 2008

Windows is like a bus. It used to be simple, and now it's a little more flashy, but it's still just a way of getting around.
posted by mullingitover at 4:34 PM on May 13, 2008

I used to think I had a thing for nerds, but I'm not so sure anymore.
posted by DrGirlfriend at 4:35 PM on May 13, 2008 [4 favorites]

I could make Scoble cry if I wanted to, but I don't. I REALLY don't.
posted by wendell at 4:38 PM on May 13, 2008

Apple Computers --> Crap People Smut
posted by Sys Rq at 4:49 PM on May 13, 2008

Buy Fusion. Move on with life.
posted by GuyZero at 4:52 PM on May 13, 2008

I'm just saying that mac software would be more than welcome on the front page if people would post it, and that that has to be done by mac users.

If this hypothetical post was ever allowed to stand, there would be another crappy thread just like this one.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:53 PM on May 13, 2008

How so? It seems unliklely that it would be subjected to the same derails.
posted by Artw at 4:57 PM on May 13, 2008

It seems unliklely that it would be subjected to the same derails.

You must be joking. Apple is the root of all evil on Metafilter.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:59 PM on May 13, 2008

root of evil, fruit of knowledge -- something along those lines
posted by Sys Rq at 5:05 PM on May 13, 2008

Screw you, I've got an iPhone, which means I'll get laid one day.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:10 PM on May 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

misdirection
hipsterection
plantarflexion
heat convection
love connection
meat injection
brain infection
botched election
vivisection

Jessamyn, When can I hear this on Mefi Music?
posted by lukemeister at 5:17 PM on May 13, 2008

If this hypothetical post was ever allowed to stand, there would be another crappy thread just like this one.

I think what especially rankled people was this wasn't signposted as a link to software, so we waited for the Flash interface to load and all we got was unflattering photos of dorks.
posted by cillit bang at 5:17 PM on May 13, 2008

Apple is the root of all evil on Metafilter.

See, no. There are plenty of people on this site who can't stand Apple for one reason or another, but there are also plenty of people who are enthusiastic fans for the company. And a big swath of people in between. Matt himself is a great big Apple dork. Apple posts being thick on the ground has historically been something like a running joke.

Based on what I've noticed of your comments in threads that turn to Apple, you're an avid defender of the company, of its design ethic, of its hardware, etc. That's fine, I'm pretty much agnostic at this point but I can dig the zealotry on any given vector. But I think your view of how The Site reacts to Apple or Microsoft is colored considerably here by your personal view, because what you're describing doesn't really match up with what I see as someone who doesn't care that much one way or another.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:23 PM on May 13, 2008 [6 favorites]

cillit bang,

Well, 1 in 3 was an unflattering photo of a dork. The other 2 were unflattering thumbnails of space.
posted by lukemeister at 5:23 PM on May 13, 2008

"Apple posts being thick on the ground has historically been something like a running joke the God's-honest truth."

Seriously, though, what the fuck ever. Your favorite OS sucks. Chill the fuck out before I go all rape haiku on your candy asses.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:48 PM on May 13, 2008

If this hypothetical post was ever allowed to stand, there would be another crappy thread just like this one.

So, clearly, no posts about software should ever be made, because they're all advertisements. Even when the software is free. Got it. I'm not sure why that can't be extended to almost everything else, though.

Apple is the root of all evil on Metafilter.

Really. You must be looking at Bizarro Metafilter. Because here on Earth, on this Metafilter, EVERY FREAKING THING APPLE MAKES GETS FPP'D. And, frankly, I'm ok with that.
posted by me & my monkey at 5:58 PM on May 13, 2008

We Can All Agree That:

1. WorldWide Telescope is a compelling improvement over the currently available alternatives.
2. It is, however, promoted entirely out of scope for its actual value which, as in [1] is predominantly incremental.
3. Many readers are unable to properly assess the quality of the software as a growing, vocal, and influential minority of internet users no longer use Windows as their primary environment.
4. The system requirements listing is a travesty, bordering on offensive.
5. Microsoft, by dint of its history of aggression and mendacity towards, well pretty much everyone, is fighting an uphill battle for positive mindshare.
6. While its research department does produce novel and interesting concepts they rarely mature into polished, usable and open products in the same way that concepts from Apple and Google do.
7. Vi is the One True Editor. One day the streets will run with the blood of the unbelievers and that day, that glorious day, the world will be free of the Ctrl-Meta-Cokebottle scourge forever.

posted by Skorgu at 6:01 PM on May 13, 2008 [3 favorites]

I'm a die hard Mac user, but I can deal with Windows. Floors too. Doors are tricky though.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:04 PM on May 13, 2008

misdirection
hipsterection
plantarflexion
heat convection
love connection
meat injection
brain infection
botched election
vivisection

this feels like The Truth Wears Sideburns*; I was half-expecting it to end with "Celine-Dion-athon", jessamyn slapping a watermelon and then shouting "PAELLA!!"

*Joan of Arcs student film from Clone High
posted by heeeraldo at 6:04 PM on May 13, 2008

Daringfireball linked to the flickr page of a guy who got a Dell with a broken keyboard last week, and the poor guy's page filled up with thousands of retards going "lol get a mac".
posted by bonaldi

Yeah, and then that guy responded with complaints against apple that haven't been valid for 5 years. Ignorance meets ignorance. They deserved each other.

The Mac zealots are just as awful as they've always been, but there are more of them now and the proliferation of blogs, comment areas, and message boards have made it easier for them to be awful.
posted by Mikey-San

But you're ignoring the windows-zealots. They're out there, you just haven't paid attention.

But, having now experienced the narrow-minded insipidness of some of the Apple Haters (I'd never even heard of "Apple Haters" until after I wrote the story), I'm interested in you (Apple Haters) too....

Really, what the f**k is wrong with you?
posted by justgary at 6:23 PM on May 13, 2008

I can't believe it's just cortex and I bringing the love for BeOS. Actually, sure I can.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:28 PM on May 13, 2008

I was really excited about BeOS. I even installed a hacky thing to give my Mac the Be look, with yellow tabbed title bars. A great idea that is still not in common use, sadly. (OS windows, not browser windows.)
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 6:45 PM on May 13, 2008

Uh-oh. Screenshot.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 6:51 PM on May 13, 2008

So, clearly, no posts about software should ever be made, because they're all advertisements. Even when the software is free. Got it. I'm not sure why that can't be extended to almost everything else, though.

It's a curious definition of free that requires upgrading or purchase of various licenses to use. And that's just for Windows users.

Meh, whatever. It was a proxy advertisement about software that isn't all that great, by all accounts, from a company with a reputation of lifting its middle finger not only at its own XP and Win2K customers, but at people who don't use Windows.

I don't know. Just didn't seem like great FPP material to me.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:18 PM on May 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

But you're ignoring the windows-zealots.

So? I complained about rabid Mac zealots because they make all Mac users look bad. Telling me I'm "ignoring Windows zealots" only kinda proves the point that computer zealots are annoying. When I become a Windows user, then I'll bitch about Windows zealots.

Sounds like you assumed I wasn't a Mac user, myself.
posted by Mikey-San at 7:23 PM on May 13, 2008

Re: BeOS

At a university I once worked at, I once found a dinky dual-proc P-II sitting under a table. Case torn half-open, no monitor hooked up, few inches of dust here and there. No love and attention at all. I fired her up and HOLY SHIT the thing had BeOS on it. I was shocked at how fast it was. I shoulda rescued it and given it a nice home.
posted by Mikey-San at 7:26 PM on May 13, 2008

s/once found/found/
posted by Mikey-San at 7:28 PM on May 13, 2008

:q!
posted by 31d1 at 7:31 PM on May 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

C-x C-cya
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:37 PM on May 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

Oh man, I haven't even thought about BeOS in years. And Neal Stephenson compared it to the Batmobile! Man I miss the late '90s.
posted by A dead Quaker at 7:45 PM on May 13, 2008

Blazecock Pileon writes "It's a curious definition of free that requires upgrading or purchase of various licenses to use. And that's just for Windows users."

I didn't see that on the product page. Do you really have to pay for a license for it?
posted by Bugbread at 8:16 PM on May 13, 2008

Oh man, I haven't even thought about BeOS in years. And Neal Stephenson compared it to the Batmobile! Man I miss the late '90s.
Damn straight. It used to be there was a whole goddamned range of platforms you could productively do most computery tasks on: A slew of Windows, Mac OS, NextStep, BeOS, Irix, HPUX(shudder), another slew of Linuxes, AmigaOS if you were dedicated, they all overlapped one another. Now it's either Windows, OS X or Linux. The niche ones are truly niche, and difficult to make your daily drive.

It's a pity.
posted by bonaldi at 8:20 PM on May 13, 2008

It's a curious definition of free that requires upgrading or purchase of various licenses to use. And that's just for Windows users.

So, wait, is free Mac software not free if you don't have a Mac? Is free Linux software not free if you factor in the time to install Linux?

And, btw, huh? No licenses or upgrading required if you have .NET Framework 2.0, which is a free download anyway.

Meh, whatever. It was a proxy advertisement about software that isn't all that great, by all accounts, from a company with a reputation of lifting its middle finger not only at its own XP and Win2K customers, but at people who don't use Windows.

Yes, an advertisement for ... free software. I don't see Microsoft trying to monetize this. I don't think they're planning on converting Mac users to Windows with it. And in the thread, many people said they LIKED the software, comparing it favorably against Google Sky. And what does the reputation of Microsoft have to do with this software? And how exactly does MS give non-Windows users the middle finger?

I don't know. Just didn't seem like great FPP material to me.

Yeah, I can see from your first response that you're not fond of this Windows-only garbage. You know what you should do? You should take a steaming dump in the thread! Oh wait, never mind.

I look forward to the next Apple product thread, in which you'll get to reply to idiots taking their own dumps. Enjoy!
posted by me & my monkey at 8:25 PM on May 13, 2008 [3 favorites]

Do you really have to pay for a license for it?

Nobody in the thread who downloaded and ran it mentioned having to buy a thing, and the download page doesn't say anything about buying anything. I'd verify it, but my computer's old and doesn't have system resources to run it.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:26 PM on May 13, 2008

Dave Faris: "On Metafilter, no one can hear you scream."

Oh, we can hear you fine. We just don't care.
posted by dg at 8:27 PM on May 13, 2008

enn: "Of course that kind of hubris is going to be mercilessly mocked, coming from Microsoft or anybody else."

Not really. If Steve Jobs said it at one of the Apple revivalist meetings then within minutes twitterheads would be repeating it ad nauseum, within a few hours it would be on Apple's website, within a few days it would be all over TV, and then within a few months massed ranks of dittoheads would be deploying it as eternally unassailable and irrevocable fact.
posted by meehawl at 8:28 PM on May 13, 2008

Hey, Mac-and-Windows nerds? Whats the best virtual machine to run 2k or XP on for 10.4 on a g4? (Yeah, non-Intel)
posted by loquacious at 8:31 PM on May 13, 2008

The only vi command I know is :q! I used to know enough ed to get by.
1,$p
Yeah, that looks OK.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 8:31 PM on May 13, 2008

Downloaded it. Ran it. No requests for payment or that I sign any documents in a chickens blood.
posted by Artw at 8:33 PM on May 13, 2008

I wish to Christ I understood why people care so much, on either side of the divide. Software not for you. Sky no fall, car no asplode, clothes still comfy, oral sex still a possibility. Ignore post, drink whisk(e)y, take goddamn nap. Find software you can use.

End of the day, no tech developer is less evil than the others. Even Google's "don't be evil" thing? Yeah, they're just as evil as MS or Apple. Steve Jobs is, by most accounts, both an asshole and a goddamn genius (by corporate exec standards, at least). Ballmer will likely implode under the crushing weight of his inherent WTF, but we'll always have YouTube lulz. My iPod will still lock up weekly, the Zune will continue to be a punchline-slash-fat guy tattoo. The iPhone will either cure or cause cancer, depending on your point of view. Go take a cooling walk and realize not every post is for you.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:46 PM on May 13, 2008 [10 favorites]

Do you really have to pay for a license for it?

Come on, I never made that claim. The download might be free, but you may well have to pay money to upgrade the license of OS or virtual machine you're running it under. Even then there's no guarantee it will work well, if at all. Of course, if someone wanted to pick words and reinvent their meanings, it wouldn't matter much what I put into a sentence, so: meh, whatever.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:54 PM on May 13, 2008

Wouldn't want to do that. That'd make us like, I dunno, a bunch of paranoid freaks looking for weird caballistic plots in some system requirements text.
posted by Artw at 9:01 PM on May 13, 2008

Guess all those Intel Mac users with 10.4 are in good shape then, now that Microsoft will be giving them free licenses of 10.5 to run Boot Camp with.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:05 PM on May 13, 2008

I'm not "picking words and reinventing their meanings", I just misread your "or" as an "and". Sorry.

Regarding the "you may well have to pay money to upgrade the license of OS or virtual machine" argument, though, doesn't that type of logic apply to pretty much anything computer related? Not that you have to pay to upgrade the OS, necessarily, but you may have to buy more RAM, or a faster CPU, or a monitor capable of displaying more colors, or something. That doesn't prevent us from calling it "free", does it? I can't run iTunes on the ancient Windows3.11 computer at work, but I don't think that means that "its a curious definition of free that requires upgrading or purchase of various equipment to use".

I'd venture that you're the one that is picking words and reinventing their meanings, so it doesn't really matter much what you respond, so: meh, whatever.
posted by Bugbread at 9:06 PM on May 13, 2008

It's a curious definition of free that requires upgrading or purchase of various licenses to use.

From that perspective, are any computer programs free? Most people have to buy their computers, after all.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 9:14 PM on May 13, 2008

hipsterections

Thread REDEEMED.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:19 PM on May 13, 2008

The software is free. It's just funny that the requirements for running on a mac is 'buy a different OS'.
posted by nightwood at 9:28 PM on May 13, 2008

I became a lot less passionate about the Mac after my hipsterectomy.
posted by George_Spiggott at 9:28 PM on May 13, 2008 [4 favorites]

Neva Chonin wrote two columns for the SF Chronicle about her desire to have a hipsterectomy. Then they let her go. Coincidence? I think not.
posted by lukemeister at 9:31 PM on May 13, 2008

Guess all those Intel Mac users with 10.4 are in good shape then, now that Microsoft will be giving them free licenses of 10.5 to run Boot Camp with.

I can't help but interpret that as saying that releasing software that requires the latest technology on a certain platform is a crime against everyone who hasn't upgraded. I always thought that was the MO of the whole computer industry. If you want to play with the new toys, you use the new hardware (or OS). I certainly don't see Time Machine available for 10.4.

Please correct me if I was mistaken, of course.
posted by potch at 9:40 PM on May 13, 2008

Please correct me if I was mistaken, of course.

I'm not talking about buying a computer. I'm challenging the claim that software is free, if someone has to buy components x, y and z to run it. More to point, when you're buying those components from the same vendor who is "giving away" the "free" software, that's not free, or it certainly redefines the word. Time Machine certainly falls in that category, as does Microsoft's star atlas.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:59 PM on May 13, 2008

This strategy was always described to me as "the milk in the back of the store". I believe the more common term is "loss leader".
posted by GuyZero at 10:34 PM on May 13, 2008

I was actually going to bring the love for BeOS, but I see the mods have already done it.

But yeah, I miss BeOS. It was fast and reliable and you could play mp3s backwards at various speeds in real time, and categorize your files in the filesystem, and...er...nevermind.
posted by davejay at 11:50 PM on May 13, 2008

i liked beos too - unfortunately, there wasn't enough software written for it, which is a real shame as it would have mopped the floor with anything else that was being offered at that time - still haven't seen a computer boot that fast
posted by pyramid termite at 12:39 AM on May 14, 2008

Thank you for your perspective from Planet Mactard, Blazecock. Given a quick perusal of the tags for Apple and Microsoft would tell you that Apple has 300 odd FPPs as opposed to Microsoft's 400 odd, you could have avoided a whole bunch of petulant threadshitting about the gross over-representation by Microsoft.

If anything, MeFi is PepsiBlue for Apple.
posted by rodgerd at 1:49 AM on May 14, 2008

Protip, rodgerd: adding poo to poo does not make ambrosia, it makes twice as much poo. And given that this was your 18th comment to all subsites of Metafilter, I'm inclined to suggest that you chill the heck out and have a delicious beverage or something.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:58 AM on May 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Planet Mactard

This just helps prove my point, of course.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:16 AM on May 14, 2008

If it were 40 years ago, I imagine we would be arguing about the merits of Coke vs. Pepsi. Granted, we'd be doing it through tin cans tied with string between them, I guess.

What did people do before there was this sort of manufactured drama in their lives?
posted by Dave Faris at 4:30 AM on May 14, 2008

What did people do before there was this sort of manufactured drama in their lives?

Whispered gossip over the back fence about Mrs McGillicuddy's daughter getting knocked up and the like, no doubt.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:29 AM on May 14, 2008

Dave Faris: "What did people do before there was this sort of manufactured drama in their lives?"

Manufactured it themselves, of course.
posted by dg at 6:20 AM on May 14, 2008

Sally McGillicuddy's knocked up? By a Mac user?
posted by Mister_A at 6:49 AM on May 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm not talking about buying a computer. I'm challenging the claim that software is free,

Woah, you are totally insane. The software costs nothing. It runs on windows, so you need to buy windows and whatever you need to run windows in order to run it (bootcamp, a PC) but for anyone who already has those things the software is free. It's no different then Linux requiring a PC to run on.

In other words it's not free for Mac users but is is free for people already using windows.

Honestly, if you don't get this you're really reaching new heights of obtuseness. I mean. I think it should be clear to anyone reading that the software is free. Your irrational hatred of Microsoft is clearly distorting your ability to process information in a way I find somewhat disturbing.
posted by delmoi at 6:50 AM on May 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

> Apple is the root of all evil on Metafilter.

Actually no, Jobs is. If Wos was still running Apple and their flagship product was the Apple ][ Mk. XLVII I would WUV WUV WUV the outfit just like I used to.

:WQ!
posted by jfuller at 7:00 AM on May 14, 2008

so seriously, am I being called out, here?

I'm still not sure.
posted by shmegegge at 8:24 AM on May 14, 2008

shmegegge - Details of your crimes are secret.
posted by Artw at 8:35 AM on May 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

so seriously, am I being called out, here?


Only if you think 'inane Microsoft bashing' is something you did in the thread.
posted by nightwood at 8:40 AM on May 14, 2008

Well, he did throw a really lame party for them this one time.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:45 AM on May 14, 2008

shmegegge, I'ma callin yew out!

Now you get out here.
posted by everichon at 8:48 AM on May 14, 2008

Only if you think 'inane Microsoft bashing' is something you did in the thread.

I'm halfway there! next stop: microsoft bashing!

how's this?

M$!!! LOL!
posted by shmegegge at 8:48 AM on May 14, 2008

Plus: the cool folks will use whatever platform they have available, cos they have shit to do.

Now, excuse me while I walk away with studied casualness.
posted by everichon at 8:50 AM on May 14, 2008

shmegegge - serious answer: not in particular. The link really hsouldn;t have had anything past the #.
posted by Artw at 8:53 AM on May 14, 2008

You'd think someone who types as badly as me would look at stuff before pressing post, wouldn't you?
posted by Artw at 8:55 AM on May 14, 2008

Has there ever been a more retarded thread on Metafilter? The fanboi idiocy is fucking astounding here.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:47 AM on May 14, 2008

I read the Slashdot thread earlier today. That turned into an utterly pointless pissing match about the true definition of "free" at one point too, but was ultimately saved by people who actually downloaded and tested the fucking software and pronounced it to be generally superior to both Celestia and Stellarium. FWIW, I concur.
posted by NeonSurge at 12:25 PM on May 14, 2008

"Go take a cooling walk and realize not every post is for you."

So, we're back to "STFU MeFi Mac users"?
posted by Brocktoon at 12:30 PM on May 14, 2008

NeonSurge - At some point someone declares Slashdot to be over because it's now "pro-Microsoft, which gave me a chuckle.
posted by Artw at 1:14 PM on May 14, 2008

In other words it's not free for Mac users but is is free for people already using windows.

So in other words, it's free, but not really free. It's kind of like being sort-of-pregnant. Got it.

Okay, here's another example:

Apple's iTunes isn't free: people amortize its ongoing development and maintenance cost by buying iPods, iPhones and music licenses. While it's a free download, the product itself is not free if you buy any of those products.

Back to the WWT. A chunk of your license fee for XP or Vista goes to pay for projects like these, which -- make no mistake about it -- are designed to get people to upgrade or buy new computers in order to: 1) pay the Microsoft tax; and, 2) get people to install the .NET libraries on their system.

In any case, pedantry aside, this link was still a free ad for Microsoft. If some SEO spammer bombed the front page with his wares, you and everyone else would be up in arms if the link stayed. But since it's Microsoft, it gets a pass. And that sucks.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:25 PM on May 14, 2008

If a scummy Microsoft employee were hucking it up there, arms would be gotten up into. But every link to a Youtube video is free advertising for Youtube, every link to a flash game is free advertising for the flash game, etc. Trying to engineer some specific refusal to talk about Microsoft's software on the front page doesn't really make sense, regardless of the company's poorer qualities.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:36 PM on May 14, 2008

So, we're back to "STFU MeFi Mac users"?

If that's how you want to read it, I guess so. More reasonable people might read it differently. If someone posts about some really neat Mac software, I wouldn't read it as "STFU Windows users" even if I can't run it.
posted by me & my monkey at 1:43 PM on May 14, 2008

AND....... scene.
posted by garlic at 1:44 PM on May 14, 2008

So, we're back to "STFU MeFi Mac users"?

I think the point being made is this: If Post A is not applicable to you, just move on to Post B.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:45 PM on May 14, 2008

Back to the WWT. A chunk of your license fee for XP or Vista goes to pay for projects like these, which -- make no mistake about it -- are designed to get people to upgrade or buy new computers in order to: 1) pay the Microsoft tax; and, 2) get people to install the .NET libraries on their system.

I have a three-year-old computer. It's already running Vista*, but it could just as well have been running XP. There's nothing I need to do to run WWT except download the free .NET Framework if I don't have it already. What's so onerous about that? How is that different from needing to download Java to run Java apps, or install Flash Player to run Youtube? They're all just different runtimes/VMs/whatever you want to call them.

No one will be running to the store to buy a new computer for this. No one will upgrade their OS just to run this. No one in MS Research working on this chose .NET Framework with the goal of selling more stuff. They chose it because it's a comparatively easy way to build modern Windows applications.

Holy shit! I have to upgrade my browser from IE 4 to Firefox so I can run meebo! The nerve of those bastards!

* Why is it running Vista? Because Vista is a requirement for Halo 2. Now you want to get up in arms about pushing upgrades, there you go - there's no reason Halo 2 couldn't run on XP except MS wanted you to buy Vista. This, not so much.
posted by me & my monkey at 1:52 PM on May 14, 2008

But every link to a Youtube video is free advertising for Youtube

Really? That's a bit different, considering that you're not linking to YouTube per se, but one of its (many) video files. I'd evaluate the substance of the video and what that is shilling, before worrying about YouTube making money.

The link to Microsoft, on the other hand, is wholly about what a team at Microsoft Research does and also requires the purchase of Microsoft products for its use. If you were linking to a YouTube video about a product Google was selling, and you had to buy a YouTube or Google product to view the site, perhaps your argument would be more reasonable.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:02 PM on May 14, 2008

So, we're back to "STFU MeFi Mac users"?

You read the part of the comment where I addressed people on "either side of the divide," right? No?
posted by middleclasstool at 2:03 PM on May 14, 2008

Visor, Mac-only software. MacSaber, Mac-only software. Tickr, Mac-only software. Delicious Monster, Mac-only software. Holding Pattern, Mac-only software. Talking Moose, Mac-only software. What are we talking about again?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 2:07 PM on May 14, 2008

"I think the point being made is this: If Post A is not applicable to you, just move on to Post B."

I'm not an idiot, so this is one of those "no shit Sherlock" comments.

"More reasonable people might read it differently."

I'm imagining you saying that in a John Hodgman mimic; that or Captain Peacock.
posted by Brocktoon at 2:09 PM on May 14, 2008

What are we talking about again?

We were talking about a Microsoft product, released and owned by Microsoft, being posted on Metafilter's front page.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:10 PM on May 14, 2008

Apple announces Aperture. What are we talking about again?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 2:16 PM on May 14, 2008

I'm imagining you saying that in a John Hodgman mimic; that or Captain Peacock.

Imagine it however you like. Maybe that'll help you accept it. After all, you just said you're not an idiot. Here's your chance to prove it!
posted by me & my monkey at 2:16 PM on May 14, 2008

Really? That's a bit different, considering that you're not linking to YouTube per se, but one of its (many) video files.

Said link leading to traffic and hence ad revenue for the site, regardless of the content of the video. There's no way to get away from the direct boon to a site (or at least to one capable of handling the ensuing traffic) that comes from a link to it. This is why spammers spam the site, and why the rule is "no self-linking", not "no ever linking to something with a commercial aspect to it".

Replace "youtube video" with any link to any site featuring interesting content from a commercial entity responsible for the same site, if you find the youtube comparison problematic. It's common as all heck; your objection seems to be not to a general principle but to Microsoft specifically, which is your right as far as personal preferences go but doesn't seem to have much application to Mefi itself.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:24 PM on May 14, 2008

Said link leading to traffic and hence ad revenue for the site, regardless of the content of the video.

I'll write it again, since you must have overlooked this: If you were linking to a YouTube video about a product Google was selling, and you had to buy a YouTube or Google product to view the material, perhaps your comparison would be reasonable.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:28 PM on May 14, 2008

I think we all pretty much get the point you're trying to make, we just think it's utterly stupid.
posted by Artw at 2:32 PM on May 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

What are we talking about again?

We were talking about a Microsoft product, released and owned by Microsoft, being posted on Metafilter's front page.

Don't be obtuse. If you have a point, make it. If you want to complain about Apple-themed posts, make a Metatalk thread about them.

For what it's worth, I generally stay out of these sorts of threads, cortex's accusations aside, and my comment history shows that. Also, for what it's worth, I flagged the OS X post from last night, which the mods can confirm if they like. Apple is not really relevant to "what we are talking about again" but I'll mention it so that you're clear about it.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:32 PM on May 14, 2008

So, and this is a genuine question, not a challenge: your belief is that no software should ever be posted about on the front page ever, with the possible exception of software that will run in Windows, OSX, and *nix?

If so, fine, at least that'd be a consistent line of thought, but I vigorously disagree that every post has to be for every member.
posted by middleclasstool at 2:33 PM on May 14, 2008

Well, he's not being all that obtuse: " a Microsoft product, released and owned by Microsoft, being posted on Metafilter's front page." Is pretty much what he has a problem with. Because it's Microsoft, and Microsoft is teh eevils. Everything else is set dressing.
posted by Artw at 2:36 PM on May 14, 2008

I think we all pretty much get the point you're trying to make, we just think it's utterly stupid.

I love that "we". Shuts down discussions every time. Congratulations.

I think I've made my points pretty well and pretty clearly. This isn't rocket science. The front page post was bad for the reasons I specified, and neither YouTube nor Apple have much of anything to do with those reasons.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:36 PM on May 14, 2008

I'll write it again, since you must have overlooked this: If you were linking to a YouTube video about a product Google was selling, and you had to buy a YouTube or Google product to view the material, perhaps your comparison would be reasonable.

The thing you're complaining about people having to buy is incredibly ubiquitous. It's like complaining that you have to buy shoes (shoes, of all things!) if you want to be able to claim your free Ben & Jerrry's cone. The installed base of MS users among people on the internet is really, really darn big.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:38 PM on May 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Apple's iTunes isn't free: people amortize its ongoing development and maintenance cost by buying iPods, iPhones and music licenses. While it's a free download, the product itself is not free if you buy any of those products.

So if someone walks up to me and says "Hey, take this peanut butter! It's free!" and then I do, but I also go and buy some jelly and bread, then the peanut butter wasn't free? That's a definition of convenience, I think, and one you've likely never actually used for yourself until it fit what you want to prove, here.

A chunk of your license fee for XP or Vista goes to pay for projects like these, which -- make no mistake about it -- are designed to get people to upgrade or buy new computers in order to: 1) pay the Microsoft tax; and, 2) get people to install the .NET libraries on their system.

A chunk of the purchase cost of a cd goes to charities that the record companies donate to for a tax break. doesn't mean I donated to the charity. And it doesn't mean there's something wrong with the charity. Yes, it contributes to a drive to get people to buy microsoft products. this is SOP for big software/hardware companies. that you are objecting to something that is intrinsic to the current business model of companies you DO approve of is pretty heavily biased.

In any case, pedantry aside, this link was still a free ad for Microsoft. If some SEO spammer bombed the front page with his wares, you and everyone else would be up in arms if the link stayed. But since it's Microsoft, it gets a pass. And that sucks.

It gets a pass for the relative merits of the progrram, despite being from a company with ruthless competitive practices. Surely you can see this. This is just not MS central. It's like an orchard here there're so many apples all around.
posted by shmegegge at 2:38 PM on May 14, 2008

Goddammit, parks are nice in the spring. Go outside and take a walk through one, people.
posted by Mikey-San at 2:38 PM on May 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

cortex's accusations aside

I didn't accuse you of anything; I said that from what I've seen of your comments on the general subject (and I don't frequent those threads either, really) you seem to have a strong pro-Apple (or at least anti-anti-Apple) position that seems to me to be likely in affecting your position re: Microsoft here. I don't care if you have the bias, and I'm not a big fan of MS either, but I do believe that it's a factor here and that maybe you're not perceiving that or acknowledging that to the degree that it's true and thus butting heads a bit more with people who otherwise probably agree with you on some of the aspects of what you're trying to argue.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:42 PM on May 14, 2008

It's like complaining that you have to buy shoes (shoes, of all things!) if you want to be able to claim your free Ben & Jerrry's cone.

I guess we'll just have to respectfully part ways, because I think that's an awful comparison.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:45 PM on May 14, 2008

Don't be obtuse. If you have a point, make it. If you want to complain about Apple-themed posts, make a Metatalk thread about them.

I don't want to complain about Apple-themed posts, I'd just like to point out that "Whenever there are software posts on Metafilter, they seem to be of the Windows-only variety. It's pretty much a given, to be honest." is complete bullshit.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 2:47 PM on May 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm not an idiot, so this is one of those "no shit Sherlock" comments.

which makes your original comment, and in all likelihood any further comments you may make, all the more pointless and unnecessary.
posted by shmegegge at 2:51 PM on May 14, 2008

no software should ever be posted about on the front page ever, with the possible exception of software that will run in Windows, OSX, and *nix?

That would be a damn fine policy.

I love my Mac and, as an ex-Windows user, despise the ugliness and shittiness of Windows... but it bugs my ass every time Jobs farts and someone posts about it to MeFi. Likewise, it bugs my ass when Microsoft does something and someone posts about it to MeFi.

Why does it bug me? Because every goddamn fanboi on the net is already covering it. You'd have to be rooming with bin Laden to not know that Apple is releasing a new iPhone this summer, or that WWT was released the other day, or that Mac Office is selling like hotcakes.

It doubly bugs be because the fanbois on MeFi inevitably end up fighting each other. I'd love to see moderators start banninating those assholes.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:52 PM on May 14, 2008

FWIW, without all the obnoxious whining I might not have downloaded the thing to check it out, and that would have been a shame, because it's pretty damn cool.
posted by Artw at 2:56 PM on May 14, 2008

I think we've discovered that blazecock pileon is secret probationly astroturfing for microsoft here.
posted by garlic at 3:05 PM on May 14, 2008

You know what bugs me? People spelling "fanboy" as "fanboi." What's up with that?
posted by dersins at 3:07 PM on May 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

Why does it bug me? Because every goddamn fanboi on the net is already covering it.

This is an excellent point, especially in the context of people getting so inexplicably het up about this bullshit.

However, the flip side there is that not everyone reads the fanboy sites. I scan Appleinsider about once a week lately even though I'm a WinXP user, because I'm saving up for a MacBook Pro and am curious when the Montevinas are coming out, but that's it, and usually this is the place I find out about major software/product releases. I realize that's not the site's intent, I'm just saying that because of that, I don't mind it so much.

Also, if you're willing to wade through all the casual drive-by "fuck this Apple/MS/Google bullshit" waste-of-bandwidth comments, you actually frequently do find some interesting and informed comments about the technology in question. I've learned some things about Apple, for instance, that made me seriously re-examine whether I really do want that MacBook, things I might not have discovered otherwise, and I'm grateful for it.
posted by middleclasstool at 3:08 PM on May 14, 2008

"which makes your original comment, and in all likelihood any further comments you may make, all the more pointless and unnecessary."

ANY further comments I make, Captain Peacock? You are just short of RAGING. What's holding you back from just outright cursing at me and inviting me to perform vulgar sexual acts myself? Is it that the Orenthal Community College library computer has a key logger, and you don't want to get banned again?

"Maybe that'll help you accept it."

This one: Dr. Phil, but the adrenaline ran out at the end there, though, didn't it?
posted by Brocktoon at 3:18 PM on May 14, 2008

seriously, what are you on about? is there some point where you're going to make a valuable contribution to the discussion?
posted by shmegegge at 3:21 PM on May 14, 2008

Brocktoon: If you are really, as you say, "not an idiot," you will understand that if my earlier clarification was so ridiculously obvious, you would have maybe, yes, "STFU" in the first place.

That said, you made a good point, and if you hadn't made it, someone else surely would have. The answer to your query, "I can't use this on my computer, and I'd really like to! What's up with that?" is, put bluntly: If you wanted a wider selection of software to run on your computer, you should have bought a computer that allows a wider selection of software to run on it.

But you didn't, so you're whining.

Stop it.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:43 PM on May 14, 2008

It's simple, shmegegge: You're trying to dominate the discussion with novel-length patronizations and condescending rants (so-called "contributions"). Me? I'm just trying to counter it because a mod hasn't asked me to stop yet. I will make a valuable contribution this evening, around 7. After Jeopardy. Mark your Google calendar.
posted by Brocktoon at 3:48 PM on May 14, 2008

Why does it bug me? Because every goddamn fanboi on the net is already covering it. You'd have to be rooming with bin Laden to not know that ...

Lots of other posts are like that. Every Monday, I see something here that I heard about on NPR the previous weekend. Every newsfilter post is already everywhere else too. Everyone complains about it, and everything stays the same. And that's ok with me, because maybe I didn't catch it somewhere else, and if I did, I can scroll right by it.

ANY further comments I make, Captain Peacock?

Hey, I thought I was Captain Peacock! Or does everyone sound like Captain Peacock to you? That would explain a lot, I think.

You know what bugs me? People spelling "fanboy" as "fanboi." What's up with that?

It's just another thing you breeders stole from us gays.

I will make a valuable contribution this evening, around 7.

Is that a euphemism for a bowel movement? If so, don't bother, you've already done your part.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:52 PM on May 14, 2008

You aren't actually required to wait for explicit mod comment before you stop having an argument, you know.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:59 PM on May 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

so the answer to my question is "no," then.
posted by shmegegge at 4:09 PM on May 14, 2008

The installed base of MS users among people on the internet is really, really darn big.

Yep.

Operating System Market Share: April 2008

91.64% -- Windows
7.38% -- Mac
.63% -- Linux ^*

posted by ericb at 4:09 PM on May 14, 2008

Ha! You WISH you were Captain Peacock! Me? I wish I was Captain Caveman.

Cortex: it's not the argument I'm worried about, but the tone.
posted by Brocktoon at 4:55 PM on May 14, 2008

First of all, I am bi.

I can use a PC, very badly, but I lean toward Mac. Once you go Mac, you never go back. So I hear, but in a real world, PC gets the big money. I decided to break off the pack and go off on my own, so I'm back at Mac. Because truly, really intelligent creative beings only use Macs.

As a Mac user, I am all for live and let live. Let the little PC/Windoz ppl have their geeky "numbrs crnchtch better here" fun, hey, that's cool with me.

And I had no beef with that post, except upon reaching the website, the infomercial testimonial people's mouths did not match the sound. Why the fuck would I want to download a software if the makers couldn't even get the lips to sync with their hired models? WHY? I don't even care that it doesn't work on my (much better than yours) machine. GET. THE. FUCKING. COMMERCIAL. RIGHT. WINDOZ. PEOPLE.

Oh my. A little glitch in my day. But now, I am happy again, because I use a Mac, and it smiles at me when I start it up, which is rarely, because Macs don't require constant reboots. And WYSIWYG is a real thing on my machine, so I'm happy about that too.

Here: have a flower, Windows users. And please, try to have a nice day.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:56 PM on May 14, 2008

Blazecock Pileon: Calm down. I have no idea why you're so invested in this argument, but it's definitely gone off the rails. Any time you find yourself arguing against an intuitive definition of a word, you've pretty much lost. For most people "free" means no direct monetary cost. If someone else pays for it, it's still free.

So even though Other people do provide money to Apple which they use to pay for the development of iTunes, it's still free for me as long as I don't buy any apple products (which I won't).

I could download WWT if I wanted too, and it would cost me nothing, and so it is free for me. It isn't free for every person, but it is free for most people, since most people run windows.
posted by delmoi at 4:58 PM on May 14, 2008

Because truly, really intelligent creative beings only use Macs.

PC/Windoz ppl have their geeky "numbrs crnchtch better here" fun

Both complete fabrications of the ad wizards at Apple. Not only can a Windows PC do more than spreadsheets and pie charts -- it can also do more than a Mac, and better, for less money. Macs, on the other hand, look kind of spiffy. It's a toss-up, I guess.

Also, although he is essentially an Apple stooge, John Hodgman is way more appealing than that smug little what's-his-name in the hoodie.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:25 PM on May 14, 2008

have a flower, Windows users.

Thanks for the flower! And all that fertilizer too!

it's not the argument I'm worried about, but the tone.

What tone? "Fuck this Windows-only garbage?" That tone?
posted by me & my monkey at 5:33 PM on May 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Marie Mon Dieu: That was meant as an over-the-top mockery of Mac users, right? Because damn.
posted by puke & cry at 5:36 PM on May 14, 2008

I wanna chime in with something witty and smart, but this is getting too stupid.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:43 PM on May 14, 2008

"First of all, I am bi."

*fap*
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:48 PM on May 14, 2008

I refuse to use this program until they come out with a native VMS port.

Windoze/Mac/Linux Fanbois: VMS is the straight dope. Suck it, haters, etc.
posted by SteveTheRed at 6:11 PM on May 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

ericb - that is not really market share, as that site says:
This report lists the market share of the top operating systems in use for browsing (not servers). This data is derived by aggregating the traffic across our network of websites that use our service.

I'm sure the real market share numbers can be gotten somewhere else on the www.
posted by nightwood at 6:23 PM on May 14, 2008

I'm sure the real market share numbers can be gotten somewhere else on the www.

Go for it. Let us know what you learn.
posted by ericb at 7:03 PM on May 14, 2008

Let us know when you find Mac OS exceeding a 51% market share -- whether that be client, server and/or client + server.
posted by ericb at 7:06 PM on May 14, 2008

ZDNet (May 14, 2008):

"Apple's MacBook Air, iPhone and iPod may be all the rage, but the company's desktop computers are still relative rarities: although analysts' figures vary, Apple desktops certainly comprise less than 10 per cent of the worldwide market.

This low market share is often attributed to the relatively high prices of Apple computers. However, another reason could be the fact that users rarely have an opportunity to experience Mac OS before buying a computer."

ZDNet (May 1, 2008):

"Mac market share dropped by 0.47% in April, taking the Mac OS market [7.01%] share back to levels previously seen in Nov/Dec 07. Curiously, the Windows OS market share increased by 0.42% in April....Is this a transient blip, or has Mac growth finally stalled? Only time will tell."

posted by ericb at 7:21 PM on May 14, 2008

Let us know when you find Mac OS exceeding a 51% market share -- whether that be client, server and/or client + server.

I expect that there will be at least one FPP (and probably at least one metatalk) about that if it ever happens.
posted by nightwood at 7:27 PM on May 14, 2008

The installed base of MS users among people on the internet is really, really darn big.

And to look at it from a "browser" perspective -- and not that of the OS:

Browser Market Share: April 2008

74.83% -- Microsoft Internet Explorer

17.76% -- Firefox

5.81% -- Safari

0.69% -- Opera

0.56% -- Netscape

0.16% -- Mozilla

0.21% -- Other

posted by ericb at 7:28 PM on May 14, 2008

Market share on Google:

fanboy 63.90%
fanboys 32.07%
fanboi 2.66%
fanbois 1.37%
fanboiiiiii 0.00099%
fanboiiiiiis 0.000023%
posted by lukemeister at 8:12 PM on May 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

You know what bugs me? People spelling "fanboy" as "fanboi." What's up with that?

I always thought it was a way to marginalize a person by pejoratively feminizing them and implying they were a girly-girl queer with a knee-weakening case of the gaypours. Like saying "fanfag", but with a reduced risk of being accused of homophobia and sexism, or confusing any Scandinavian dragons who may be within hearing distance.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:44 PM on May 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Blazecock Pileon: "In other words it's not free for Mac users but is is free for people already using windows.

So in other words, it's free, but not really free. It's kind of like being sort-of-pregnant. Got it.
blah blah blah"

I have to keep telling myself that this is a troll because, surely to any god you care to name, nobody with enough brain cells to be able to type that out without errors is so completely fucking idiotic as to really believe that brainfart is anything approaching the region of circling the neighbourhood of the truth. Please tell me it's a troll. Please?
posted by dg at 12:54 AM on May 15, 2008

Please tell me it's a troll. Please?

You just keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel good inside.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:06 AM on May 15, 2008

*feels good inside*
posted by dg at 1:19 AM on May 15, 2008

Seriously though, when I have a room of people arguing with me that something is free when they admit it isn't, I begin to realize that I'm the one being trolled, in all likelihood.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:21 AM on May 15, 2008

You are educated stupid.
posted by Artw at 2:21 AM on May 15, 2008

Congratulations, you are now more tedious than I could ever be.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:12 AM on May 15, 2008

Blazecock Pileon: "Seriously though, when I have a room of people arguing with me that something is free when they admit it isn't, I begin to realize that I'm the one being trolled, in all likelihood."

Well, I've just re-read the whole thread in case I had to take my words back and apologise (not for the first time, truth be told) but, apart from this comment that sorta kinda doesn't completely disagree with you (and I'm being generous there), it looks to me more like a room of people trying to tell you that something is free.
posted by dg at 4:03 AM on May 15, 2008

sorta kinda

Is Microsoft giving out Mac OS X 10.5 and Windows XP/Vista licenses for free or not? Just answer the question, yes or no, and save your "educated stupid" trolling for Slashdot.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:28 AM on May 15, 2008

I'll get you those licenses for free, if you also buy the Golden Gate bridge from me for $20.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 4:34 AM on May 15, 2008

no, they aren't giving out those licenses for free. However, they do appear to be giving out the WorldWide Telescope licenses for free. Funny, that's seems to be what everyone has been saying.
posted by garlic at 5:14 AM on May 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't know what to say except from repeating what any number of people are saying - assuming that you already own a computer with the requisite systems (which may or may not have cost the person using it money - I got a legitimate Windows XP license for free from an employer, for example), the application itself is free. I simply can't believe that someone who is clearly not stupid (based on your previous contributions here) doesn't understand that. Therefore; I can only assume you are pretending to be stupid either to troll or for some other, unknown, reason.
posted by dg at 5:39 AM on May 15, 2008

I think Marie Mon Dieu was actually being serious...

*ponders* Is that more or less disturbing than Blazecock Pileon also being serious?
posted by jacalata at 6:11 AM on May 15, 2008

I don't know what to say except from repeating that you're not getting WWT for free, just because the download costs nothing. It's not "free" if Microsoft tells you on their page that you'll need to buy some more software to run it. And that post is still free advertising for Microsoft, because that "more software" is sold by Microsoft.

This isn't all that hard to understand, nor is it even much of a controversial statement to make, except that a certain company is involved that must be defended at all costs by invoking non sequiturs about Apple and YouTube, and getting some trolls to crawl out of the woodwork to throw names around. Either that or people are so used to buying computers without paying for the software license up front, so the Microsoft Tax is apparently a really hard concept to think about.

Otherwise, on the basis of the unprovoked insults I've received, this thread has truly been a pathetic and disappointing display on the part of some people whose contributions I usually respect. It's opened my eyes a great deal. Thanks for your time.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:49 AM on May 15, 2008

I'm getting some serious deja-vu here. Twice. Dual-deja-vu.
posted by NeonSurge at 10:53 AM on May 15, 2008

*starts typing scathing twenty-page screed about 15+ years of doing graphic arts, design, publishing, prepress, digital audio production and recording, motion video and more on Windows/PC computers, with lots of experience on Macs*

*stops, slaps self in the face repeatedly.*

*starts again, then stops. slaps self in face harder. repeats.*

*looks at iBook and old Windows box playing nicely side-by-side, shrugs*

I really hope that "Because truly, really intelligent creative beings only use Macs." is a total troll, Marie, because all the people I've met that only use Macs are about as creative and intelligent as those irritating little miniature zen rock gardens Mac-only users tend to keep on their desks.

I've done plenty of slogging in the trenches back when this whole DTP thing was brand new stuff, and even back then all of the truly creative, intelligent creative professionals that I've ever met were equally adept at both Windows and Mac machines. Every print and design shop I've ever worked in uses both.

I could catalog proper graphics and DTP workflow click-by-click and show you comparisons between Mac and PC and show you the failings of both, and show you the differences between the Mac way of WYSIWYG and the PC way, but others have done it already.

I use both because I'm smart and creative, and each has it's own benefits and specialized tools.

Hell, I still use an old version of CorelDraw! on a PC for my hand-built bezier objects and manual platework, because it's about 1000 times faster than Illustrator's clunky workflow for the same tasks, with much higher arbitrary precision, larger single or compound curve objects and object counts. Plus it handles a truly ridiculous amount of vector filetypes and output paths. From a ten year old program, no less. Suck it, Adobe.

Also, I've observed that prospective hires who will willfully state "I only work on Macs" in interviews usually indicates that the hire will be a primadonna, a non-producer and a general pain in the ass. "Where's the file server again? What the fuck is Samba? Why can't we just use Appletalk? How do I reboot the RIP? Argh, is that DOS? What's an FTP? What do you mean my web pages all look wrong on a PC? Who cares? People should just use Macs, anyway. It's ok if we market only to Mac users, they're the only ones that have money! WTF is BSD?"
posted by loquacious at 11:07 AM on May 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Otherwise, on the basis of the unprovoked insults I've received, this thread has truly been a pathetic and disappointing display on the part of some people whose contributions I usually respect. It's opened my eyes a great deal. Thanks for your time.

So there are two basic possibilities here, from that.

1. The argument you're trying to make is being rejected in whole or in part (and with varying degrees of civility -- welcome to Metatalk, I wasn't aware you were new here) by other people on the basis that the argument is not as strong or meaningful or compelling as you believe it is.
2. Everybody is stupid and unworthy of the respect you formerly mistakenly granted them, because (1) is an impossibility.

I don't think any less of you for my disagreement with you on this, and I don't think you're an idiot, but I do think you've entrenched yourself too deeply in your assumptions about the merit and infallibility of this particular position if all you can take away from any of this is that you're right and everybody else is stupid. It's really weird.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:07 AM on May 15, 2008 [3 favorites]

It's really weird.

Yeah. You're not dumb. I'm sure you know the difference between a sunk cost and an incremental cost. And I'm pretty sure you also know that if something is free to a lot of people, but not everyone, it's still usually considered free. Free coffee with no free cups is still free coffee regardless of the fact that you'll need a cup to take advantage of it. Zero incremental cost == free in common parlance.

you've entrenched yourself too deeply in your assumptions about the merit and infallibility of this particular position

This seems like kind of a strange torch to carry - the list of worse FPPs is long and many of those are hardly more than rehashes of Apple press releases. Are you really so into this issue that you can't just admit that other people see the situation differently and that that's OK?

/sings Kumbaya
posted by GuyZero at 11:20 AM on May 15, 2008

Otherwise, on the basis of the unprovoked insults I've received, this thread has truly been a pathetic and disappointing display on the part of some people whose contributions I usually respect. It's opened my eyes a great deal. Thanks for your time.

I'm really very interested in knowing how much of the opposition you've encountered in this discussion you think has resulted in unprovoked insults. This is not to say that no one has. Not at all. I'm just curious how much of the opposition you believe has insulted you. I think it would be a shame to just lump cortex and everyone else in your mind as "assholes who insult me" when they were trying really hard to have a discussion with you in good faith. assholes are assholes, obviously, but they don't necessarily represent everyone.
posted by shmegegge at 11:37 AM on May 15, 2008

Otherwise, on the basis of the unprovoked insults I've received

Dude, you chose the psuedonym "Blazecock Pileon". If you're going to go all sensitive on us like that, after all the diatribe you've personally been ready and willing to dish out - you might as well rename yourself Joan of Arc and put on a suit of armor made entirely out of strike-anywhere matchsticks.

I expected more spine from the likes of you.
posted by loquacious at 12:06 PM on May 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Metafilter in 1999

Metafilter in 2009:
[Redacted] is one of the strangest sites I've seen in some time. I have no idea how these [names deleted to preserve privacy] got their [redacted] wedged into their [technological devices], or why.

(*** comments total) [add to favorites] [!] ** users marked this as a [redacted]
posted by lukemeister at 12:10 PM on May 15, 2008

I agree with loquacious. CorelDraw! is awesome.
posted by middleclasstool at 12:55 PM on May 15, 2008

Blazecock Pileon: "I don't know what to say except from repeating that you're not getting WWT for free, just because the download costs nothing. It's not "free" if Microsoft tells you on their page that you'll need to buy some more software to run it. And that post is still free advertising for Microsoft, because that "more software" is sold by Microsoft"

But, you see, it is for the majority of Internet users. It really, really is. The fact that it is not free for Mac users or for users of outdated Windows systems doesn't mean it's not free judged by the common use of the word, as opposed to your personal belief which seems to be that, unless there is absolutely no cost anywhere in any way to anyone, something is not free. It seems that, to you, the word "free" is completely redundant because everything costs something to someone. From what I can gather, you would consider an application that incurred no direct charge, would run on any computer ever built regardless of capacity or operating system and, in fact, came with a computer at no direct charge, was delivered and set up at no direct charge was still not free because you need to pay for the electricity to run it.

I know that's not what you mean, but that's the inference you are making by repeatedly claiming that something which incurs no direct cost to its target audience (and, in many cases, actually incurs no indirect cost to the user either, because someone else pays for the requisites) is not free. Perhaps you could help us to understand by explaining what the precise conditions are for something to be considered free by you.

I hate it when I just don't get the logic of something and I simply cannot see a scrap of logic in your argument. I'm open to being convinced, though, if you care to try.
posted by dg at 2:06 PM on May 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think Marie Mon Dieu was actually being serious...

No, no, I was joking (very badly, it seems).

Very sorry if I upset anyone.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:20 PM on May 15, 2008

No, no, I was joking (very badly, it seems).

Ok, that's good to know. It's hard to tell around here. Or on the internet in general.
posted by puke & cry at 2:49 PM on May 15, 2008

It's hard to tell around here. Or on the internet in general.

Obligatory link to New Yorker cartoon
posted by lukemeister at 3:23 PM on May 15, 2008

I am old and decrepit and I have a certificate in Wang word processing. I remember Apple IIE's in classrooms and thermal printers that plugged into a phone with rubber suction cups on the back. I learned on a Mac Plus and then an Epson PC clone after I got off the thermal printer. All the PC users used to tell the Mac users how superior they were and Mac users would joke about how superior they were, it was an ongoing friendly ribbing that didn't really matter, because people are drawn to what suits them best.

I have used PC's for graphic design and also Macs. I do not like the MS Word macro viruses that I ran into years ago. And I did curse Bill Gates a few times while using MS products at work, I admit.

Just to clarify, I have no position, except I like Macs, yes. I can use a PC and if someone gave me a brand new PC, I'd use it. I'm very sorry for being a troll and I will go flagellate myself now with my camera's USB cord.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 3:27 PM on May 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

I hate it when I just don't get the logic of something and I simply cannot see a scrap of logic in your argument. I'm open to being convinced, though, if you care to try.

It's not rocket science. There's a difference between visiting a site and being instructed to buy and install a second (and third) product -- one of them a Microsoft product -- in order to use the "free download" from Microsoft, and having to pay for electricity to use a computer, which everyone has to do, whether using a Windows box or whatever.

In any case, I have to admit I have a hard time taking the opposite view seriously when it involves shoes-and-ice-cream and electricity comparisons. Really, those comparisons are silly. They have nothing at all to do with Microsoft shilling its wares on the front page, nothing to do with this issue whatsoever.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:35 PM on May 15, 2008

There's a difference between visiting a site and being instructed to buy and install a second (and third) product -- one of them a Microsoft product -- in order to use the "free download" from Microsoft, and having to pay for electricity to use a computer, which everyone has to do, whether using a Windows box or whatever.

See, I think this is the part you are not getting - for the majority of Internet users, the "second (and third)" products are things that are either already installed or which can be installed at no cost to the user (leaving aside download cost etc). While the product may not be free for you, it's free for the majority of people who are the intended audience for the product so, by the definition of almost everyone in the English-speaking world, it's free.

For what it's worth, I have no particular dog in this fight - I use PCs exclusively for no reason other than convenience and economy. I swoon over almost every piece of hardware Apple send out because, let's face it, their hardware is waaaay sexy. I'm somewhat jealous of the people who sit around me on the train with their awesome MacBooks. I nearly cried a couple of weeks ago when the HDD on my iPod died. So, I'm not trying to shill for Microsoft in any way (I'm firmly of the opinion that the day MS starts making something that doesn't suck will be the day they start to make vacuum cleaners), just trying to make sense of why you can't (or won't) see the plain truth here.

Marie Mon Dieu: "... I will go flagellate myself now with my camera's USB cord."

pix pls kthnxbi.
posted by dg at 3:55 PM on May 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

I have to admit I have a hard time taking the opposite view seriously

Likewise, I'm having a hard time taking your view seriously. If I understand you correctly, software cannot be free unless it is available on free platforms. There cannot be any free software for Windows or OSX or Solaris or any other commercial platform.

If that's correct, and it's not just because it's Microsoft and Windows and you have an irrational hatred for what are essentially just tools to other people, I submit that your definition of free is very far from everyone else's here. So far from it that I doubt we could ever find a middle ground. I know you don't like everyone's comparisons, but here's one more: presumably, since internet access is provided by ISPs, this site isn't free, right? Because after all, I have to pay an ISP to use it, or hang out at the library all day.

Microsoft shilling its wares on the front page

I don't think stbalbach is a Microsoft employee.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:58 PM on May 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

pix pls kthnxbi.

You know what? I have been a reader of this site for years and always enjoyed it. I have seen all of you and the people before you make the nastiest comments to each other and I still joined because it seemed like there was a sense of community here.

I have a life beyond MetaFilter and frankly, you can take your nasty little comment and fuck off.

kthxbi
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:07 PM on May 15, 2008

Huh. Of all the things to quit over...
posted by Sys Rq at 4:16 PM on May 15, 2008

Careful with that USB cord. Someone with skin as thin as yours could do themselves some real damage.
posted by timeistight at 4:19 PM on May 15, 2008

Marie, I don't think dg meant any harm even if I can see a harsher reading into his comment than I think was intended. Come on back if you feel like it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:26 PM on May 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Marie Mon Dieu: "pix pls kthnxbi.

I have a life beyond MetaFilter and frankly, you can take your nasty little comment and fuck off.

kthxbi"

Wait, what? OK, I was having a joke with you (however ill advised) and was certainly not meaning anything nasty, mean or negative in any way. If my comment offended you, I apologise unreservedly for making it. When I saw your comment, my immediate reaction was to go to your profile to send you an e-mail saying this, but you had already disabled your account, so I have no way to contact you to apologise "in person". Please don't deprive this community of your presence over a stupid joke by me.

I'm sorry.
posted by dg at 4:40 PM on May 15, 2008

I think this thread is setting a new record for fucked-up.

Blazecock, really, are you trolling us? What the heck do you have to buy, other than Windows, to run WWT? I'm totally lost here.
posted by GuyZero at 4:49 PM on May 15, 2008

Oh, geez. dg's about the nicest, most inoffensive, unsnarkiest guy around. One dumb comment from him of all people shouldn't make somebody flameout!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:58 PM on May 15, 2008

This thread has made me despair whether communication is possible. I memailed Marie this afternoon, saying she might want to clarify her comment. I thought she was probably joking, but I wasn't sure. Her response this afternoon reassured me, and I thought her 'flagellating with the USB cord' remark was a joke. I favorited dg's response because I took it in the same spirit. Now I'd like to know whether you found dg's remark offensive.
posted by lukemeister at 5:41 PM on May 15, 2008

Pah. I find you all offensive. All of you!
posted by five fresh fish at 6:06 PM on May 15, 2008

At least that's something we can all agree on^*.


* This is a joke. Please do not take offence in any way. Thank you.
posted by dg at 6:12 PM on May 15, 2008

dg,

I think I'm confused because you're in the southern hemisphere and I'm in the northern. When your remarks cross the equator, words of praise become insults, and vice versa.
posted by lukemeister at 6:39 PM on May 15, 2008

I'd just like to seize this lull in the conversation to point out how ugly you are.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 7:08 PM on May 15, 2008

I think I'm confused because you're in the southern hemisphere and I'm in the northern. When your remarks cross the equator, words of praise become insults, and vice versa.

Thanks right. So fuck you, dg!
posted by puke & cry at 7:30 PM on May 15, 2008

That's right. Shit.
posted by puke & cry at 7:31 PM on May 15, 2008

Yeah, in your fucking dreams, pukey!
posted by dg at 7:31 PM on May 15, 2008

The download might be free, but you may well have to pay money to upgrade the license of OS or virtual machine you're running it under.

Stretching is good for you. It really is. But stretch and stretch and stretch to an extreme and you'll SNAP! Injury ensues.

Rothko?
posted by juiceCake at 7:33 PM on May 15, 2008

kids these days - they bitch and bitch about "free" and "shilling"

look, you never had to unload three semis worth of punch cards just to give your computer word processing capability, so quit your fucking whining
posted by pyramid termite at 9:06 PM on May 15, 2008

Marie Mon Dieu's profile
This account is disabled.

Damnit. For what it's worth, I enjoyed your contributions. Do feel free to return.
posted by loquacious at 9:28 PM on May 15, 2008

Yeah that was probably the craziest self-banning I've ever seen here. Caused by one stupid throw away joke. Unless there was some underlying issue there.
posted by puke & cry at 9:54 PM on May 15, 2008

*feels bad*
posted by dg at 10:05 PM on May 15, 2008

Evolution in action, dg. And self-inflicted, at that. No need to feel bad.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:33 PM on May 15, 2008

I thought he was working on that equator theory, meaning he didn't feel bad at all.
posted by puke & cry at 11:58 PM on May 15, 2008

look, you never had to unload three semis worth of punch cards just to give your computer word processing capability, so quit your fucking whining

Three semis of punch cards? What was that, the early beta for Office 2000 written in COBOL?

OK, I have no idea how they actually addressed binary or machine code in punch card form, but two of the most common punch cards are 40 or 80 character formats. Let's just choose raw binary encoding to keep it simple and in the ballpark. 80 bits per card. Let's assume a normal 8 bit word for a whole byte. We'll use a full 1024 bytes for a kilobyte (kibibyte, modern use).

80 bits per card equals 10 bytes per card, a 102.4 cards per full, kosher kilobyte.

An original IBM PC single-sided floppy was 160 kilobytes, possibly with a 1000 bytes per measured kilobyte, but we'll ignore that for now. Wordperfect was the rockstar single-user application of that later PC era, word processing or not. As far as I recall it fit on one disk, but let's be generous and say two disks, or one doublesided at 360 kilobytes. It sure wasn't three disks. No one would sit still for it then unless it was a really good game. (Remember, no one has fixed hard disks yet. No swap disk or virtual RAM. Hardly any RAM to speak of at all. It ran and booted from a single floppy or you played swap-the-floppy while working.)

So, 360 kilobytes is 368,640 bytes, which is 36,864 cards. A stack of 500 business cards is somewhere between 5 and 7 inches long depending on the cardstock, so lets say 6.

Excluding any boxes or packaging that's about 440 linear inches of cards, or a bit over 36 linear feet, which would be just a few layers of shallow boxes on a pallet. Probably less than about one quarter or a third of a properly stacked cargo palette for about 360k worth of data.

To put that into a more modern perspective a 700 megabyte CD would roughly equal 73,400 linear feet of punch card by using the same numbers from above, which are probably wrong. I really have no idea how many trucks that is. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume it is at least greater than one truck. We'd have to see how many cards would actually fit on a pallet. Say 200 linear feet. That's like 350 pallets, or 5-10 big trailers full of palletized punch cards. 73,400,320 binary 8 bit 10 byte punch cards. Oh, shit. Where's box number 2,118?

Note: My math is technically wrong, depending on A) your working definition of byte and kilobyte, and B) the actual numeric encoding involved. Most punch cards can store more than one binary bit per punched card column - I suppose you can compact binary to a single row and column by "punched" or "unpunched". But to simplify things I chose binary as the base value per column.

Sorry. That was pointlessly nerdy. I was just curious and trying to visualize it, and LOOK, THERE IN THE SKY! IT'S A 747 CARGO PLANE FULL OF HARD DRIVES AND DATA DVDS!
posted by loquacious at 12:38 AM on May 16, 2008

Well, to start with, a standard semi at full legal length takes only 22 pallets (unless you custom-build stackable pallets), so you are going to either need more trucks or, at the least, make some of them B-doubles.

I thought he was working on that equator theory, meaning he didn't feel bad at all.
No, I feel bad. Inordinately bad, pehaps, but genuinely nonetheless.
posted by dg at 1:33 AM on May 16, 2008

As well you should! Shortly after she joined Marie went positively apeshit praising my limited English compositional skillz, and I had a large and soft spot for her in my tarry black heart.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:22 AM on May 16, 2008

Yeah, I liked Marie a lot. She clearly had a healthy sense of humor, so I don't understand what happened there, but if anyone has any way of contacting her besides her now-defunct MeMail, please let her know that she took something wrong and a bunch of us want her back.
posted by languagehat at 5:53 AM on May 16, 2008

I heard from Marie; she's fine, she's just having a kind of rough and stressed time at the moment and is sort of fed up on snark lately, mostly regarding threads that had nothing to do with this one.

dg, she says it's really not you and sorry about the reaction. More just a bad moment when other things were bothering her.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:47 AM on May 16, 2008

maybe she was kidding again? as in, she'll memail the mods and be like "jk about that button thing! can I come back now to share the laughs?"
posted by shmegegge at 7:48 AM on May 16, 2008

I don't get how anyone could see dg's comment as snark. Naughtily flirtatious maybe, but not snark.
posted by timeistight at 9:24 AM on May 16, 2008

Perspective means a lot on a web forum.
posted by owhydididoit at 11:00 AM on May 16, 2008

And yay! Glad to hear she is reconsidering...
posted by owhydididoit at 11:01 AM on May 16, 2008

We're gonna need a bigger boat.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 11:55 AM on May 16, 2008

(_______________all_aboard!_________________)
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 7:12 PM on May 16, 2008

To respond to the second post (I read no further), neck-beards and hipsters don't go together. I'm sorry, but you're doin it wrong.
posted by SmarterChild at 8:52 AM on May 19, 2008

*registers onlyreadingthefirsttwocomments.com*
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:57 AM on May 19, 2008